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This podcast is an avenue to dialogue about the totality of the food experience. Everything from gardening, to preparing, to eating, to hospitality, to the Lord’s Table, with an eye toward how this act that we all have to engage in helps us experience the transformative power of God’s love and what it means to be human.
Episode 69 (Andy Root)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table.
I am your host, Andrew Camp. In this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.
And today, I'm thrilled to be joined once again by Andy Root.
For those of you who didn't listen to the first episode, Andy is the Carrie Olson Balson Professor of Youth and Family Ministry at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota. Lately, his work has centered around the intersection of faith and our secular age, having completed his six-volume series, "Ministry in a Secular Age." Like I said, he lives in St. Paul with his wife, Kara, who's a Presbyterian minister, and they have two kids, Owen and Macy, and a dog. When he's not teaching and writing, he watches a ton of TV.
So thanks again for joining me again, Andy. It's always, always love your work, um, and it's always look forward to having a conversation about it.
Andy Root: Yeah. Well, thanks for having me, Andrew. It's great to, great to be back.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. So since we last talked, you've been busy publishing three more [00:01:00] books, um, in the span of two years.
Um, you've written "Evangelism in an Age of Despair," "A Pilgrimage into Letting Go," which, you know, is a parent pastor resource, and then most recently, "Baal and the Gods of More." And so I'm curious, after six volumes of Ministry in a Secular Age, like, what were you hearing? Like, you, you obviously saw something.
were hearing things, conversations with pastors and churches and- Yeah ... leaders. Like, what precipitated, like, you, this new, these new works?
Andy Root: Yeah, well, first sickness probably did it. Like I'm, I'm a bit insane, so I, uh, or masochistic, masoch- masochistic maybe. I don't know. I don't know how you feel about writing, Andrew, but I feel like it's a-
it's a form of suffering. So, uh, I don't know if it's been like, uh, a little bit of, um, you know, um, Stockholm, Stockholm syndrome or something, where I've just been locked in this office writing so much that I just, I can't stop. So I just, uh, have [00:02:00] become friends with my captor. But, uh, actually coming to the end of the six volumes of The Ministry in a Secular Age, the truth is, is like the evangelism book and this, uh, Baal book really could be volume seven and eight in that.
Mm. But we had lied to all of the readers be- at the beginning saying it was gonna be three volumes- Right ... that ballooned to six volumes. Yeah. So it just felt like Jeremy Wells at Baker and I just felt like, "Yeah, I don't think we can get away with like volumes seven and eight and nine." And like, you know, who do you think you are, Karl Barth?
Right. Which is, you know, I don't. So, uh, we had to, we had to stop at six, though it could... They really kinda function the same way.
Andrew Camp: No, they, they do. And, um, I wanna start with your latest book, Baal and the Gods of More, 'cause I think it provides a framework for- Mm ... even to think about the evangelism book. Yeah.
Um, and so, you know, in that book you're really asking the question of, of what is, what does it mean to grow? Um- Mm-hmm ... and so help, you know, unpack a little like, you know, [00:03:00] 'cause- Yeah ... I think churches all say, "Yeah, we're about growth," but you're wanting to very bit carefully nuance and point out- Yeah ... some dangers.
Andy Root: Yeah, and I think, uh, you know, the first step is to say that a lot of my work could be interpreted or maybe some who would have pushback or like that this guy's anti-growth or even like an economic theory, like especially in Europe, there's like a de-growth category where people are trying to look at like economies that not only don't grow, but what it would mean to kind of de-growth to, to...
You know, so I've been, I've been accused not by a lot of people, but a few people of being like the de-growth church guy, you know? And, uh, and I don't really want that. Right. I don't really want that stigma. I, I'm really not about de-growth, but I am worried about the certain kind of forms of growth or just kind of assuming that all growth is the same kind of growth.
And I, and I do think that there's something essential about the Christian tradition that, that Christianity, that call into following Jesus Christ, that, um, what it means to live in [00:04:00] God's kingdom has a sense of growth to it. But that so easily becomes kind of co-opted by a certain kind of late capitalist form of escalation really.
Right. And so, um, I'm trying to draw a, a distinction between what we really mean by growth and, and probably the, the, the shorthand for that is I do think the Christian tradition is about growing into someone as opposed to growing something. And I just continue to find that Protestant churches fa- like fail to draw that distinction or to say like resource growth, membership growth, that could happen and God could bless us with that, or God could give that to us and it could be a curse.
You know, we, uh, we just presume that that's a good in and of itself, but people will tell stories of their churches, you know, exploding in growth and it actually destroying the church, you know, that it, it becomes like a cancerous form of growth. And so, um, I, I do think there's an ultimate good as growing into being like or being in and [00:05:00] participating in the very life of God, but that doesn't necessarily mean budgets grow.
That doesn't necessarily mean membership rolls grow, though they might, and we should celebrate that if that's the work of the Spirit. But I'm trying to give us an aim towards, um, you know, something more theological than just purely mathematical maybe. I don't know. You know, purely kind of quantified by, by the ways we usually count things or are framed to kind of count things in our, in our late modern age.
Andrew Camp: I think maybe your book resonated deeper with me 'cause I'm in sales. I sell wine.
Andy Root: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: And so like, you know- Yeah ... if your sales aren't increasing, you know, like you're, it, there's a strong business problem. Um- Yeah ... you know, like- Yeah ... and, and I, a- and so it's easy to get trapped into that capitalist mindset.
Like if there's not growth, like, you know, something's wrong, we need to fix it, you know? Mm-hmm. And that push for ever more growth like in sales, like it's tiring. It's exhausting, you know? Like- Are you visiting [00:06:00] new accounts? Are you doing this? Are you doing that? And it's so easy then to get stuck, just easily transfer that to the church of like, well, if we're not growing, is, you know, there's something wrong with us.
Mm-hmm. 'Cause- Mm-hmm ... that's how just our minds work.
Andy Root: Right.
Andrew Camp: And, and yet you point out that like, hey, we're either caught in this dichotomy of do we want the child in Mary's arms or, you know, your blunt quote, you know, your you know, or do we want Artem- Artemis and her many teats? Like, you know, and you have- Yeah.
pictures in your book like, you know.
Andy Root: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: It's a very- Yeah ... you know, but like you, you- Yeah ... point out that like we're drawn to this fertility notion versus a rela- Mm-hmm ... relational model of growth-
Andy Root: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: that plagues us.
Andy Root: Yeah, and I think that is the big contribution of the Christian tradition or sits at the heart of the Christian tradition, is that this growth is, is fully a relational dynamic.
It is growing into Jesus Christ who gives us our life, or, you know, it is growing [00:07:00] into, when we look at the kind of iconography of the Christian tradition, it's growing into this embrace of the mother and the child, which is a very different kind of growth. There's no mother who doesn't want her child to grow.
Right. I mean, every, every mother, every parent wants their child to grow. And y- you'd be a pretty bad parent if you were like... I mean, you'd be a diabolical parent if you're like, "Well, I don't want my kid to grow." Or, or even taking the beauty of like, I love, I love my daughter that she's six and thinking, I used to have this joke with my daughter who is now, um, almost 20 years old.
But like, you know, like I was gonna... I always said that I had, uh, some, some, uh, professor I knew, some chemist that could just inject her with some kind of serum that she would never grow beyond six because I just enjoyed- Mm-hmm ... her at that age. Um, and you know, it was a fun joke, but there was no stopping it.
And I actually, if I could find that serum and give that to her, I would, it would, it would be abusive. I would, I would do something that would be awful to her. So there is a sense of growth in that. But I also am not thinking she'll-- I'll only be proud of her if she, [00:08:00] you know, has more resources or more degrees or more Instagram followers than all the other kids in the neighborhood or something.
You know, like, I'm not just trying to get her to escalate and, and win every competition. I want her to grow into a fullness of, of life. So I do think that there are these logics that go all the way back to the ancient tradition like you were mentioning, and this is how this kind of project was born for me is, is being in the Vatican Museum and, you know, seeing in the Hellenistic wing, Artemis of Ephesus, who's got like, you know, she's got this kind of, I, I don't know, like this strong view on her face.
She's almost kind of this, looking at you and I don't, I wouldn't wanna say sinister, but it's very clear she has power. Right. And her arms are open and she's just this kind of covered in all of these, all of these breasts, all these teats, and she's essentially will give you fertility if you give her worship and give her all your energy, she will kind of give you the, the resources you need.
And then you go down the hall, turn the corner, go into the Renaissance art wing [00:09:00] and see all these beautiful pictures of the Madonna and the Child. Mm-hmm. And, you know, as a Protestant in itself, that's, you know, uh, you know, that's an awakening. Um, and but there is something really just, there's a complete difference here- Mm-hmm
of, um, a God that demands energy and more kind of escalation to receive goods from this God as a fertility god, or the God of Israel, the God made known in Jesus Christ, the God that, uh, Mary is called in the Magnificat to, to care for and, uh, to mother, is this God who wants the relational over the, over escalation.
And so try to drive our churches in that direction.
Andrew Camp: Right, 'cause the, you know, that picture that you share and the statue that you saw, it's not pornographic. Like, it's, there's- Mm-hmm ... meant to be something economical and- Yeah ... you know, even religious about it, um, versus a pornographic image that we're like, "Oh-" Yeah
"Sh- shy away from kids." You know.
Andy Root: Right.
Andrew Camp: Uh-
Andy Root: Yeah, it's any, it, it, there's no kind of [00:10:00] titillation into that at all. No. I mean, it is, it is this kind of forcefully like th- she provides. You, there's a transactional reality. You give- Mm-hmm ... uh, you know, your sweat, your blood, whatever kind of form of, of worship that is, and, and, and at least these, these statues of Artemis are very much this kind of...
I'm not a, I'm not a Artemis expert, you know- Right ... Near East religious expert, so maybe somebody like, "Well, actually in this oracle, she's very kind of compassionate." I don't know, but the statue for the most part, and we see this in First and Second Kings with, uh, with the fertility god Baal, where it just demands more and more acceleration of action, which is one of the interesting dynamics with, um, you know, with, with Elijah, where Elijah kind of mocks them in, in the battle with the Baal priests.
Was like, you know, "Maybe you should be louder." Yeah. "Maybe you should dance harder." And, and we kind of get this mocking, cartoonish sense that he lays back and sleeps. But there's also a theological dynamic in this- Mm-hmm ... that the God of Israel does not demand more and more escalating effort, because [00:11:00] this is just like Egypt.
Right. That's what Egypt demanded of you, that you would work harder, that you would, that you would do all this for those Egyptian fertility gods essentially, and for the Egyptian empire. Um, this God rescues you from that to make you not cogs in a fertility machine, um, but makes you children. And children- Mm
are always invited into God's goodness and rest. And so Elijah cannot take mixing together Yahweh and Baal. He thinks these are- two completely different logics, two d- completely different economic systems, if you will, that cannot cohere together. And I guess I wonder if we're at a point where, um, we get a little bit tempted towards fertility or that becomes more captivating in Protestantism right now, um, even though we wouldn't call it Baal.
But, you know, our certain kind of capitalist forms are more, are more attractive to us in certain levels than, than these, uh, I don't know, than, than the ways of Israel, or the ways of, of, of Yahweh, uh, to Israel and, and the ways of, of the mother and the child.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm. You know, 'cause I was also [00:12:00] thinking of Brueggemann's book, Sabbath as Resistance.
Andy Root: Yeah. '
Andrew Camp: Cause that's what his whole point is, like Sabbath is this resistant posture to- Mm ... an economy of escalation and the economy of more and more. Mm-hmm. And yet, like, the pull, whether back in the Israelites' day or in our day, is always back to escalation and more. And we f- we think we're in this new age where it's different than what the biblical authors ever faced, but you, you know, in a very great way of highlighting 1 and 2 Kings, you're, you're drawing some deep correlations between the church and Israel.
And so, like, it's obviously a big work, right? And it's too much- Yeah ... to summarize in, in a 45-minute conversation. But like, h- help us see the parallels or like- Yeah ... just 'cause I think it, it, it gives us a situatedness that maybe we can be open and receptive to the God who speaks. Yeah.
Andy Root: Well, you've already mentioned Brueggemann's name, and it's very [00:13:00] much a kind of Brueggemann read.
Yeah. Um, so it comes with all the advantages of that and disadvantages to that. And I'm not an, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm not an Old Testament professor, nor do I play one on TV. So, uh, you know, there's, there's I'm sure a lot of lacuna in, in my read, but, uh, I go with Brueggemann in the sense where, I guess I just say that to the listener, like it's very much Brueggemann's read of First and Second Kings is very much a priestly read.
Or excuse me, it's very much a prophetic read over and against the, the, the priestly read. And so, you know, I, I, I'm trying to look at this in a more contemporary way of thinking about how certain ways we think about capital, uh, get escalated. Hmm. And building off, uh, the German sociologist Hartmut Rosa, who he's talked about your society actually is modern, back to your selling wine.
Like you're modern when you maintain or sustain your society by growth, you know? Right. So the wine business, y- your company is only sustainable if it keeps moving product. You know, [00:14:00] like that's just the way it, it, it works. And in many ways, you have to keep moving beyond what you moved last year. You need to move more, more this year.
So he calls that the dynamic stabilization, where he thinks your society's modern when it stabilizes itself by growth.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Andy Root: And I, I do not think you can impose that on the ancient world. Like the ancient world did not think we have to grow markets and therefore our society- Right ... will be stable. But every human society and every human collective has to stabilize itself, has to wonder, how are we gonna exist across time?
How are we gonna e-exist that way? And I think in the ancient Near East, the, there was an escalation logic. It wasn't a dynamic stabilization, but the escalation logic was the bringing together of cultic systems. So it was a kind of cultic escalation. And so this is, you know, how First Kings starts is that you're, we're told that David is the king and, and this is a pr- a prophet's tale, so the prophet loves David.
You know, David- ... is the, the great king. He's essentially the king who is a prophet, [00:15:00] and what's really fascinating from the prophet's perspective is David's a good king 'cause David doesn't have a cult. Hmm. He has no cult, no temple, and hi- his only cult is a kind of soft cult, which is just prayers. You know, he just has- Yeah
psalms. The, the... There's not an intricate kind of cultic system with all these big temples that would reflect anything like Egypt. You know, like if you even today do a, do a trip down the Nile, you just go from huge temple to huge temple- Hmm ... to huge temple. Like, like the Nile was just, uh, littered with all sorts of incredible cultic systems, and David doesn't even have, you know, in his own city, doesn't even have a temple in it.
But then Solomon comes a- uh, uh, about and, and he, and he does. Right. You know, So- Solomon becomes the great king, and you kinda get this feel from the prophet in the, in the first chapters of 1 Kings is, like, a little bit worried about Solomon 'cause he does some crazy things, but you cannot, you cannot deny this is golden era.
Right. Like, this is the golden time for Israel. You know, like, they are, they are the top [00:16:00] dog, and these are, these are great times. And so we're t- And we are told Solomon is like his, his father, David. You know, he, he does this and that, but then we're also told these things like he also burnt a lot of, you know, offerings at high places, and he did marry an Egyptian princess and bring her into David's, David's city.
And the idea of that, of course, is when you marry, the, the, the wife brings in the cultic system of the, of the other land because it makes the king- Hmm ... more powerful then because then that you have all, you have more gods to, to provide for, for your people. And, uh, and, and so the idea that I'm trying to get at here that may be, um, more than just the exegetical points is that I think in 1 and 2 Kings, Israel's on the downside of a golden In a, in a sense, you're getting everybody-- every king after Solomon is trying to get back to this- Mm-hmm
golden era and a feeling to kind of pull down the, the other side of it. And I just kind of feel like that's where American Protestantism is. You know, like we are on [00:17:00] the downside of a golden era. The mid-20th century was a, a golden era for, for American Protestantism. And when you're on a downside of a golden era, you get very tempted towards trying to mix together things that can't be mixed.
Mix together Yahweh and Baal. Mix together late-form growth capitalism and, you know, Protestant Christianity and the theology of the cross. You know what I mean? Like- Right ... um, prosperity gospel and Paul's epistles. Like, these things don't really kind of go together, but we feel like we have to. Or Silicon Valley-based kind of innovation capitalism mixed with, you know, um, with th-this sense of, of, of the biblical text.
These things don't all, all go together, but we feel tempted to try to find them. And that's really how I read the Ahab story, which is kind of, I think, the epic story of, of, of, of the k- the two Kings books is it really is Jezebel is not... I mean, we say this in Christianity all, you know, in, in, in kind of Christian culture, like Jezebel is the-
[00:18:00] Yeah
Andy Root: the, the sexual temptress, and she's not that. I mean, that's unfair. Right. She, she's a, she's an MIT, Harvard-trained economist, and what she's brought in to do is to try to give the Northern Kingdom a economic boost. Like she-- that's, that's her thing. Like, she brings in those cultic realities, but they're supposed to bring Israel on this downside some, some kind of economic growth.
And this is what, um, Elijah just can't stand. Um- Hmm ... he just cannot s- he just does not think Yahweh and fertility gods, these are not things that go, go together. And so that's what I'm trying to get at, but really say that the temptation is always there when you feel on the downside of, of, of, of a golden era, and I think that's where we are in Protestantism.
Andrew Camp: Right. 'Cause you situate, you know, you're, the first half of the book is really situating the church in the post-1970 or this post-Christian- Yeah ... or America's special century, which- That's right ... GDP growth, um, [00:19:00] you know, and what we saw, the economic growth, and you even point out that in times of economic growth, the church grew, um, faster and- Mm-hmm
better, I guess, than in slower- Yeah ... GDP times, and so, like- Yeah ... you know-
Andy Root: Yeah, it's a crazy American phenomenon, that for some reason, it's not as true in Europe, and I don't know. I mean, I, I guess I don't have statistics, say, in, in the Southern Hemisphere. But, um, but I think it's a very true American phenomenon.
When GDP growth goes up and people have a sense that their standard of living is expanding, they go looking for a Protestant church. I mean, it's a very bizarre thing. And so, you know, like, from the mid-1950s essentially till the end of the 1960s, early 1970s, there was just incredible amounts of GDP growth, and it led to really full churches.
And so most pastors didn't even have to think about growth 'cause it just happened, you know? Right.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. And in that post time, you know, and then, you know, in the '80s and '90s, we saw mainline decrease, but evangelicalism- Mm ... American evangelicalism maybe [00:20:00] grew in different ways, you know? And-
Andy Root: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: um, but I think post-2000, I think, you know, there's a decline, and everybody's feeling it.
Um, and you even point out that the anxiety and unhealthy nostalgia for golden times is too much for many people. Um- Mm-hmm ... and, like, I've felt that. Like, I have, I've talked to other people, and I've mentioned, I'm like, "I don't know what American exceptionalism is." Like-
Andy Root: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: because I, you know, post- Yeah
Columbine, really, like, I think, you know, y- there's not... You know, yes, we've seen some economic growth, but it's not that sustained GDP growth- Yeah ... you point out. Right. Right. A- and so- Yeah But for boomers or late Gen Xers, like they're holding onto something and craving something that's not there anymore.
Andy Root: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so I'm, I'm basing my economic theory on this, uh, kind of, uh, God-blessed but curmudgeonly guy named, uh, Robert [00:21:00] Gordon, who wrote this really thick book. And, you know, Andrew, we've talked enough now on this podcast, I'm addicted to really thick books. So if it's, if it's a thick book, like 600 pages, I may be interested in it.
I'm the only person- Right ... in the world who's, uh, drawn to that. But he has this big thick book called "The Rise and Fall of American Growth." And, uh, I found it just fascinating, but that's his, his point is that from 1870 to 1970 was an unprecedented time of GDP growth in America. And so he calls this the special century, and he particularly calls it special 'cause he doesn't think it's coming again.
No. Like it's, it's more than likely not happening again. Like this was an outlier. And it, it was amazing. Like the, the GDP growth that happened in the mid-1960s, basically in like three years you got more standard of living growth than you would get 100 years in the medieval period. So they had- Hmm ... like a mathematical equation they can kind of push back.
You know, and it's like this is why people thought "The Jetsons" was just a documentary, you know, in the mid-1960s. Like the- Right ... of course we'd all be living on the moon and back and forth to Mars by- Yeah ... you know, by [00:22:00] 2025 because just ev- things were... I mean, I, I guess another example of this is like Back to the Future, it, it worked because 55 and 85 were so different-
Andrew Camp: Yeah
Andy Root: in kind of standard of living. But 85 and 15 are not, were not that different. You know what I mean? Mm. Like, that was going around social media, like- Yeah ... this is the same amount of time has passed as supposed to have passed in those 30 years of Back to the Future. Now 30 more years have passed and, you know, we're still in puffy vests, we're still driving cars.
Uh, you know, we're listening to our music differently. Uh, you know, we have, we, we don't have cords around our, our ears. You have cords around your ears. I do. You're cool. But, uh, you know, there's some ways that entertainment has changed, but for the most part, the larger infrastructures of our roads and, uh, the way we get food and things like that, like other than like...
Well, like, you know, like the way Instacart works or something, it's pretty much the same. Yeah. And I think it's a debatable if that's better. You know, like [00:23:00] we just ordered a pizza for, for the first time in a while, and now you have to go online, you have to download an app . Right. You have to put your information in.
It's like I remember in '87, I could just call up the pizza place, like, "Pepperoni," and they, and it would be there in 30 minutes. Yeah. And now I order online, I can watch, do it on an app, and it takes 45 minutes to get here. So is it better? I don't, I don't know. I know they can harvest my data through doing, through doing it.
Um, you know, so that, that's his basic point is that since 1970s that's been over, but I think my contribution is to try to tie that together with the Christian century or which is really the Protestant century.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Root: And I think it's really interesting how the, the, the Christian century, the Protestant century, and the special century are interconnected.
Hmm. Um, and I, I think one of the things we're dealing with is, uh- What's fascinating is that in the midst of the special century and the Christian century, Protestants, because of our heritage, we get uncomfortable with things going well. You know what I mean? Yeah. Right. So like when, [00:24:00] when things go well, we start to wonder, I mean, maybe legitimately we start to think, have we fallen into some kind of, uh, uh, disobedience here or whatever.
Right. So you, you see these moments where Protestants, uh, kind of disestablish themselves, you know? Mm. So, um, after this kind of big missional movement, uh, kind of world Christianity kind of movement and bringing civilization to the world through Protestantism, you get the social gospel that kind of disestablishes that.
And then after World War II, you get this very congregational ministry kind of focus and where the pastor is the important person in town. You get the kind of civic religion reality, and then the late 1960s disestablishes that.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Andy Root: And, uh, what happens is that it never gets reestablished. Mm. Like, there's not an economic bump- Mm
that allows for something to get reestablished. So the first two industrial revolutions, steam and electricity, were amazing for mainline Protestants, but then the s- third one came late, and when it came, [00:25:00] it did not bring the growth that we thought it was. And, and this is what he thinks the third industrial revolution was the microprocessor, was- Yeah
was the computer, but it hasn't brought huge GDP growth. It, it's changed the way we get entertainment, but that's about it. Yeah. It hasn't really changed transportation. It hasn't really changed how we get our food and our clothes and things like that. I mean, obviously we get Amazon and stuff like that, but for the most part, it hasn't radically changed it.
Where if you had grown up in the 1850s and you made it to the 1930s, I mean, it was shocking how different the world was, you know? '
Andrew Camp: Cause yeah, you mentioned it, y- the only thing the microchip has changed is our entertainment. It hasn't-
Andy Root: Yeah,
Andrew Camp: yeah ... helped our productivity, and everybody feels it, right? No.
Like, you know, my- Yeah ... smartphone hasn't done anything to help me except- Yeah ... waste my time and draw me- Right ... into, you know, pits of despair, um, probably.
Andy Root: Yeah, ex- exactly. Yeah. And, you know, to, to Gordon's point, and, you know, I... This is beyond what I really completely understand, to be completely [00:26:00] honest.
Yeah. But GDP is connected to worker productivity. Yeah. Now, we could, we could wonder, is that good at all? But the point is, is that being able to stream every movie ever made on your phone is not really great for productivity. But having electricity or indoor plumbing, incredible for productivity, you know?
Right. So ins- instead of having to, you know, carry in dozens of jugs of water from the well every day, to have, turn a faucet, that really changes home productivity, you know, and, and adds to our standard of living. And so Netflix has given us every piece of entertainment, but it hasn't... It made that easier, but it hasn't really made our lives that different besides being able to numb ourselves maybe a bit.
Andrew Camp: More, yeah, and not have to be tied to a VCR and make sure we hit record at just the right time. And if-
Andy Root: Right, right ...
Andrew Camp: y- you know, if it's a sporting event, do we have to extend the recording to make sure we don't, you know, s- not get the last two minutes of the fourth quarter? Yeah. Like, you know. And then- Yeah
fast-forwarding through commercials, like, you know. Yeah. Yeah. My d- And if, and if-[00:27:00]
My daughters will complain, like, that, "Wait, we can't fast-forward through commercials?" And I'm like, "No." I know. "No. No. No, this is live."
Andy Root: I know. Or trying to explain to them, like, what it was like to watch Seinfeld at the heyday of it- Right ... when,
Andrew Camp: like,
Andy Root: everyone was watching. And if you missed one of the episodes- Yeah
unless you had set your VCR, if you missed one of the episodes, you just had to wait till summer, and there was a rerun. Right.
Andrew Camp: You know? Yeah. Yeah. And then catch it at the right time and find, you
Andy Root: know- You catch it at the right
Andrew Camp: time. Yeah ... go through your TV Guide booklet, you know, and find it. Right. You know?
Andy Root: Exactly. Yeah. And there was that great pleasure in the summer when all of a sudden you'd turn it on and be like, "I've never seen this episode."
Andrew Camp: Right.
Andy Root: Like, you forgot that you for- missed an episode. Yeah. And you're like, "Oh my gosh." It felt like an incredible gift.
Andrew Camp: Yes. And so, but what did change in that third industrial revolution is sort of the identity aspect.
Yeah. You unpack that in other books, of like we are an identity-based culture looking for, for more clicks. Um- Yeah ... and I think pastors and churches, I [00:28:00] think, find themselves in that, where pastors are trying to establish their identity. Um, you know, and so, like, what, what does it, what does the church, in this weird post third industrial revolution, like- W- what is the church?
Because like-
Andy Root: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: growth just came naturally through this, but now you're saying growth came naturally in GDP growth, but now as GDP growth has slowed, you want the church to move into sorrow. Yeah. Like, you know.
Andy Root: Yeah. Uh,
Andrew Camp: yeah. Sorrow and death. Right. Like, you know.
Andy Root: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Which isn't resource escalation or growth or-
Andy Root: Yeah
Andrew Camp: joy or-
Andy Root: Yeah, yeah You're, you're exactly right. It doesn't sound good, but it, it, you're exactly right. Um, yeah, I mean, the first thing to say is like, I can have no friends. So everyone's gonna be mad at me w- as they, as they read this Baal book, because I do think that the way we become kind of, uh, resource [00:29:00] obsessed, kind of open to fertility, if you will, to kinda capitalist fertility, is you kinda get two options within Protestantism.
You become what Gordon calls techno optim-- a techno optimist. And he says there are these people who just think huge amounts of growth are right around the corner. Yeah. And, and they hate Gordon because he's like, "It's not common, man." Like it's not gonna happen. Uh, you know, but e-even today, if you ta- you, you could turn on 24-hour news and you'd hear some techno optimists being like, "AI is gonna bring it."
Right. Once AI really gets distributed into society, it's gonna change healthcare, it's gonna change this. I-i-in 30 years from now, we will have no idea, this, this moment right now will look so old-fashioned compared to where we are in 30 years. The problem Gordon says is we've been saying that for 20, 25 years, you know?
Like- Right ... this is gonna change everything. Maybe it will happen, but he's, he's really, he's doubtful that it, it will have like these great economic, uh, changes. So, but you see this within the church, is that there's techno optimists everywhere. Like if we could just [00:30:00] find the right way to preach, if we could just get the right program, if we could just help pastors learn to be innovators, um, think of their local communities in more entrepreneurial ways, then we, then we would get the growth that would save us, you know?
But the other side of this is that the techno optimists and denominations usually have, their enemies are the identitarians- Right ... as I call them. And what I think is fascinating about identitarians is there's a lot of talk of kind of justice and, and things like that, which there's something legitimate about that.
Just like there's something about creativity and the need to kinda get creative that the techno optimists are right about. You know, like we, we, we shouldn't be against those things. But there is a way, and, and this is kind of based off the sociologist, uh, named Castells, who, who wants to talk about how in this third industrial revolution, that identity, um, kinda gets dislatched, disconnected from communities, and that it can be, it can be kind of recognition for identities can become a capitalist pursuit.
Right. [00:31:00] And I mean, he starts writing this on the early, early days, like in the ear- like late '90s of the- Mm-hmm ... kind of boom of the internet age. And really didn't see social media, but in social media that's, you know, really it. Like you can- Yeah ... it's a lot of identitarian talk to try to get recognition.
And so I'm just trying to point out, and this is where I can have no friends, is that both tend to be very capitalistic, you know? Right. Like our... Uh, uh, the techno optimists tend to be real friends with ca- like capitalist forms we need to escalate. But the identitarians try, you know, like they'll give us some hardcore Marxist critiques of, of, of capitalism, but there is a kind of capitalist logic in here, what it means to kind of win recognition and, and, you know, which identities need to be affirmed and which don't, and, and how the debates work with that.
And so, um, I'm trying to point that out, and it's gonna make everyone very angry with me. But I think both are very susceptible then to fertility gods- Right ... and these kind of escalating capitalist [00:32:00] forms, and, and thinking that stabilization is based on that. So we either gotta find the right innovations or we gotta identify the right identities and, and, and, you know, affirm them, affirm, affirm, affirm, affirm without, without ever any end.
Um, and those are the only things that will save us. And you... I hear it all the time. You know, I hear like, "No seminary will exist unless they move towards techno-optimism or move towards identitarianism," because you'll, you won't have any resources. You'll either have no students or no donors or one or the other.
And I, you start to see why Baal is really attractive. You know what I mean? Right. Like, there, there... Yeah.
Andrew Camp: No, 'cause I th- again, it goes like everything pushes for more within us. Like- Mm-hmm ... I gotta grow my brand, you know? Yeah. And what does it mean to have a podcast, you know? Right. Um, you know, and do I wanna see it grow?
Ye- yes. Like, would I love to make some money from it? Sure. But like, what... You know- Yeah ... if that becomes my goal, I can manipulate, [00:33:00] um- Mm-hmm ... something or, you know, figure out the algorithms to, you know- Right ... maybe get more hits. Um-
Andy Root: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: but is that-
Andy Root: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: the way of Jesus?
Andy Root: Right. Right, and you can even see that with affirmation.
Like when- Right. With- What is affirmation for? Like what's the end? Yeah. Is there a larger story, like it is really about the upholding of humanity and finding community and belonging with others, or is it just about kind of winning attention? Yeah. And this is the, what's really hard is in an attention economy, the objective is just to win more and more and more attention.
Um, and this is Castiel's point, is like this becomes a very capitalist game. Like you're- Right ... just always driving for more and more. So, um, I am trying to move towards the theology of the cross 'cause I move- Mm-hmm ... every way towards the theology of the cross. And-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Andy Root: the evangelism book is kind of trying to think of evangelism through the theology of the cross.
And in some sense, this book is trying to think of church growth, if you will, through the theology of the cross, [00:34:00] which becomes no church growth at all in some sense, or it becomes a growth into the logic of the cross, which is to experience God, um, in experiences of brokenness and loss, and the church becoming the community that consoles the brokenhearted.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Andy Root: And my big wager is God is present in those moments. And, um, and this does go back to the story of Israel, like God hears the suffering of Israel, and God sends and elects Moses in to set the people free, um, free from the traps of continued escalation. And I think in the cross, in the same way, ends all drives towards kinda maintaining ourselves by our performance, and really says that God is present and can meet us in those places where we need others to bear our humanity to, to, uh, be with us in our sorrow.
And that our sorrow has fundamental value in, [00:35:00] in the sense that it becomes the place where our neighbor is called to share in it with us. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, that's not to glorify when I have my own sorrow. It, it's just bad. It's just awful and a loss. But it does, and this is something Bonhoeffer I think says really beautifully, is that, um, kind of building off Luther, this kind of sense of abfall tun, which is this kind of sense of loss.
And it's really the temptation that God isn't good because you're in the midst of, of just difficult human experiences, that that creates, um, a center that Jesus Christ is present at, and it calls others to join in it. And I really wanna push the church and Christian leaders to be really attentive to where God is present.
Mm-hmm. And that's where I find Luther's theology of the cross so helpful, is that it really is a commitment that God is present here. God can be present in other ways too, but God is primarily the one who is pro me, is for you. And so in the midst of your sorrow and brokenness, God is for you. And the church is to say [00:36:00] to the world, "God is for you.
God is with and for you." Not when you're escalating-
Andrew Camp: Right ...
Andy Root: and not when you've worked hard enough to earn it. Particularly when you've found your work doesn't get you anywhere. You know- Mm ... like when you find that you are broken and unable to perform or get yourself out, this God who is so for you comes near.
And, and those are the... what I'm trying, the kind of the tones I'm trying to hit, which exists. I mean, they exist still with mothers and their children.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Andy Root: And that's why I think the iconography of, of Mary and Jesus are so, are so profoundly important for us. '
Andrew Camp: Cause that relational push, you know, is, 'cause even evangel- evangelism, you know, can be used for instrumental means of like, well- Yeah
Andy Root: we just,
Andrew Camp: you know, hey, if you do the right things and get more people in there, you know, like it's all, it, it's growth. And I think most pastors that I've interacted with will be like, "Well, no, I always prioritize the relational." Like, "No, [00:37:00] we're, we're about this for people." Yeah. "We're in the people business, we're not in the growth business."
But our actions don't, or, you know, they may negate or belie what we actually say at times.
Andy Root: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Um, but your call, again, is to share in the sufferings of other, like how do we be more relational? Um- Mm-hmm ... and, and that's- Yeah ... like it's a fine line it feels like. Like it's- It is ... like it's not either/or, black or white it feels like.
Mm. But y- it's this fine line that, you know, it's a tightrope.
Andy Root: Yeah, it is. And, and f- and familial analogies are, I think are helpful. I mean, like to think y- you're not a good parent, you know, um, you're not a good dad, you're not a good mom if you don't care about sustainability. Um, or you- Right ... don't care about, you know, like, uh, if you don't care about your family having a future, there's a responsibility.
Part of the office of being a parent is thinking about how are we going to get to the end of the [00:38:00] year? How are we gonna get to the end of the month? How do we, how do we sustain this? The question just that becomes, is it only dynamically? Is it only- Mm ... growth of capital that, that does that? And I, I think, you know, this is the question, what sustains us, is a question of salvation.
So it's like a fundamental theological question. 'Cause I think this will happen in churches where some people will say, "Okay, Pastor, that's great that you care about that God stuff, but we need the adults just to worry about how we're gonna get the budget
Andrew Camp: passed." Right.
Andy Root: You know what I mean? Like, we just need more money, as if that, you know, as if the theological spiritual realities are one place, and the just the pure finances are another place.
But these things are deeply interconnected because they are stories of what saves, what makes us long for the world, what, what, what continues to give us a home, a place to belong that we can hold together. So it isn't zero sum, where it's like, "Don't think about this." As a matter of fact, like what comes after this, Andrew, is that [00:39:00] especially finishing the Baal book, it's like I do have...
Now I need to talk about what money is. Mm. Because every pastor has to deal with money.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Andy Root: And every, every parent has to think about balancing some budget for the good of the embrace of their child. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, so that, that's what's coming next. I don't... You know, maybe in about a year.
It, it's completed, but it's, it's in, it's in production-
Andrew Camp: Wow ...
Andy Root: about kind of thinking of a, a, a pastoral theology of money itself.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Andy Root: Because every American pastor is a bit... You know, you're running a small business- Yeah ... whether you like it or not. So at that level, it's like, well, how to... Okay, so I don't wanna fall into this logic of escalation and completely serve the God of dynamic stabilization that comes as, you know, capital in- Right
in our late modern form. But what do I do with money? Like, how, how do I even think about money? Yeah. theologically. So that, that's the kind of next move. So you're right. I'm just trying to say there's something really important about money, but all the more so we have to think about it theologically and [00:40:00] how it- Mm
then moves us. I mean, this is the little teaser to the next book, how money itself becomes a relational dynamic. Um, how money is relational in and of itself and not just an instrument, and that's my-- that's the kind of through line of all my work is I just fear modernity turns everything into instruments and then therefore instrumentalizes everything.
And I just don't think the God of Israel, the God known in Jesus Christ is about instrumentality but about deep forms of relationality that all the traditions have called this. I mean, sacra- uh, sacramentality is a deep relationality. Right. Theosis in the Eastern tradition is a deep one, and the Trinitarian tradition's hypostasis is like this, these are never instruments.
Mm-hmm. These are what it means to be caught up. I mean, Pentecost is being caught up in the Spirit, you know? Um, these, these are not just instrumental realities, and yet I think what modernity does is instrumentalize everything. So I'm trying to go to every form of ministry and try to cast out the demon of instrumentalization, if you [00:41:00] will.
Andrew Camp: I think it's valid, and I think, you know, to draw it back to my wine work, I work for a small- Yeah ... wine distributor. I don't have quotas to meet. You know, the wineries we represent- Mm ... aren't saying, "You need to meet this quota," or, like, my company's not saying, "I need you to sell X amount of cases of a really bad wine because..."
Whereas- Yeah ... you know, like I can go to my account, my client, and be like, "Hey, what do you need? How can I serve you?" Um, versus, you know, I have friends that are with bigger companies, and it's the end of the month, and they're like, "I need to sell $12,000 more or else I'm in trouble." Like Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You know?
And, and again, like I want to see growth. I want to see more sales, but like I'm hoping right or wrong- Yeah ... that maybe caring about the relationship with my accounts or saying, "Hey, how can I serve you best? What do you need?" Versus, "What does my company need?" Right. Might actually help and pay off in the long run.
Um-
Andy Root: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: y- but [00:42:00] it's slow and it's harder, and-
Andy Root: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: it's more frightening.
Andy Root: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: But I hope that that kindness pays... You know, it, I can s- Yeah ... I can hopefully maybe sleep better at night, you know? Yeah,
Andy Root: yeah,
Andrew Camp: yeah. And I think it goes- Yeah ... well with that spiritual aspect too, of like are we pushing something that the people don't need?
Or are we asking and- Mm ... you know, our fellow brothers and sisters, "Okay, how can I serve you best? Where do you need- Yeah ... to be met?" Um- Yeah ... versus, "Hey, look at this shiny new toy we got that might get more people in the seats."
Andy Root: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we'll all have to be back on when this money book comes out and we, we can talk about it, 'cause I think there's an interesting dynamic where, uh, some of these anthropologists are trying to flip the story we have about how money got created.
Okay. And we tend to think like with, with Adam Smith that kinda money comes for the sake of standard interest. Like, you're interested in this, and I'm interested in that. So if we turn it into that interest into [00:43:00] kind of coin, um, then, then we don't have to actually correlate our interests, you know? So- Right
um, but there's a lot of these anthropologists that are talking about that money, when you actually see it in society, comes about because of human relationships, um, where this kinda sense of promise is made, that, you know, I make a promise to you, you make a promise to me. Um, and, um, you know, money can sometimes tragically come in to stand in for broken promise.
But you can see the deeper relational dynamic of, of, of, of promise. And even with, you know, your clients, there's a sense of the relationality makes a kind of promise. Like, I promise that I will, you know, get you the best wine I can get you at a fair price. Right. And, uh, you know, you make promises to me about actually paying your the debts that we have.
Right. Um, but, but there's something core about promise where really Adam Smith's story, God bless Adam Smith, is really trying to get human relationality out of it so markets can just grow. Right. Um, and, and yet, [00:44:00] and, and that's really maybe not the greatest way to think about it.
Andrew Camp: So has capitalism ruined everything?
Andy Root: I, I'm not an anti-capitalist- No, no. Right ... just like I'm not a de-growth person. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Okay.
Andy Root: So I'm not that. But I will say that, um, I do think that there's something, something, uh, true, something, um, that's the kind of best, the best we can do in some ways as, as certain kind of capitalist forms. Right. I'm, I'm not, I'm not an anti-capitalist, but I do really worry about late form capitalism.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Andy Root: And particularly kind of hyper fiscal forms of capitalism. And, um, we're, we're a long ways away from, uh, from, um, Max Weber and the sense of, uh, of interest and- Right ... what it means to, to do good business and faithfulness to God and your neighbor when we're talking about what it means to sell debt to big corporations and, you know, make money and, and then how we all become kind of pulled in.
Like, I'll-- my 401k is completely, you know, [00:45:00] wrapped up in how the markets do.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Root: And yet, people who are in poverty have no access to those markets.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Andy Root: So, you know, and so they have no participation in the circulation of money whatsoever. Yeah. And my future, you know, like literally my retirement is dependent on those markets going, going up, and there's a huge percentage of people who have no access to that.
Yeah. And it's very different than the way Augustine thought about, um, the alms, and thought we have to give alms. And one of the reasons we have to give alms is because it allows people, um, the poor to be involved in the circulation of money. Um, and we've created a kind of fiscal capitalism that's eliminated the poor from the circulation of money, and I worry about that.
But at its core, I'm not against capitalism. Don't think capitalism has ruined everything. But I do think, um, if you don't regulate the beast, it does... I'm not a big fan of neoliberal capitalism. Right. 'Cause I think it just, it has a certain form of individualism to it that, um... And, and I have a, you know-[00:46:00]
A, a high view... I have a low anthropology, and therefore a high view that sin is rampant in the world, that unless we regulate it, that, uh, my interest, I know this from myself, from my own being- Yeah ... that my interest will become the most important thing. Right. And I will- Yeah ... talk myself into needing more and more and more and more and more because I'm afraid of my own, uh, my own finitude in many ways, you know?
Andrew Camp: Yeah. And I think it's, you know, maybe the American church's wholesale adoption of capitalism without critical examination of what, what are the issues and where, you know, and again, I think that's where you're calling the church, of what, what do we need to do? Yeah. Um, you know, and so to wrap up, like, I'm curious, you know, as a final question, like, for the average person sitting in a pew, like, you know, y- they're not a pastor, they're not, you know, they're just trying to make sense, like- Yeah
what is your, you're not a pastor, but you're pastoral. Like, so what i- Yeah ... what would be your pastoral [00:47:00] exhortation- Mm ... to the average person sitting in a pew in this moment?
Andy Root: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I start the book and I end the book, and I'm almost, I'm too old to really do this, but with a meme, you know? Yeah.
Like, what we think will save us, and it's a picture of Artemis, and then what will save us, and it's this beautiful icon of, um, Our Lady of Vladimir, which is this, you know, beautiful picture- Mm-hmm ... I actually have on my screensaver right, right here- Right ... of, you know, Med- of Ma- the Madonna of Mary kind of looking at you, the viewer, and inviting you into this relationship she has with this, this child, with a, with a Christ child that's looking intently at her.
And I guess what I would really say is, um, that we do always have to reflect, and I think there's something very Protestant on this, is what we think saves us. And, um, Calvin, I think, is right, that the human heart is in a factory of idols. And, uh- Mm ... we've made ours very sophisticated ones. Um, but it is a question, I think, [00:48:00] of, um, what, what do we think will save ourselves, but also what do we think will save the, the, the church?
Um, and that, uh, I, I do th- you know, my wager it's relationality over its instrumentality. And, um, but that does, that's costly. Mm-hmm. That, that's actually costly because there is a foolishness in it, to, to quote Paul. Yeah. It looks utterly foolish to think this, uh, crucified Nazarene and this m- this teenage girl and her baby can save you, as opposed to the great god Artemis or the bull that's, you know, reared back on Wall Street.
You know? Mm-hmm. Like, there is a, just an utter... I would, I guess I would say to the, to the person sitting in the pews, like, what does it mean to take faith in the utter absurdity of the crucified, the, the crucified Christ as opposed to the, the bull on, on Wall Street? I mean, it is, it's- Right ... it's fascinating.
You know, there, that's- [00:49:00] Yeah ... that's Baalism in our day, is all those tourists around the Wall Street Bull.
Andrew Camp: Hmm. And,
Andy Root: you know, people don't know it, but they're taking pictures of their, of their of their idol. Yeah. You know what I mean?
Andrew Camp: Yeah. And
Andy Root: we, and we, we all do.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. I love those words. I was also thinking in your book of, you know, I, I watched, live streamed the Global Leadership Summit a few times when Bill Hybels was still doing it.
Yeah. And he would always say, "The church is the hope of the world." Mm-hmm. And then would bring in to- you know, Fortune 500 CEOs to tell us how to make the church a better way. You know? And again, it's, it's a- Yeah ... instrumentality versus where you're asking us to embrace the absurdity, um- Yeah ... you know, again, it doesn't- Yeah
it's not gonna get you invited to the big conferences.
Andy Root: No. No.
Andrew Camp: But it's what-
Andy Root: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: the invitation- Yeah, yeah ... of the cross is.
Andy Root: Yeah. And it is amazing to think that if Jesus was doing that, a la Matthew, uh, the, the Gospel- Yeah ... of Matthew, he would say, uh, [00:50:00] "The church is the hope of the world," and then bring, you know, a six-year-old up there.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Andy Root: And, and h- and, you know, like, stand with them and, you know. Yeah. "Become like one of these if you would like to, uh, enter my kingdom." It's very different than, you know, optimize and, and, and learn to, to innovate or, you know-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Andy Root: do all the things that the, the CEO or the great activist does. But what does it mean to, to be like this child?
Andrew Camp: Yep. So I appreciate this, Andy. I've always loved your work and appreciate the chance to converse and draw out some ideas. Um, if people wanna find you, where can they, you know, find your work?
Andy Root: Yeah, if people really wanna escalate my, uh- Yeah ... you know, my, yeah, w- my social media handles. Yeah. Yeah. Per- performative contradiction completely.
I know. Um, I mean, probably the, per- per-
I, it's the world we live in, right?
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Andy Root: Like we both said, we're not anti-capitalist. No. We're just trying to stay out of the, the [00:51:00] teeth of it. Um, but just, I have a website that's andrewroot.org, and that's probably the best place to go, um, so people can find me there.
Andrew Camp: Awesome. Yeah. And again, do, do pick up Baal and the Gods of More.
I think it is a fascinating look, um, at what, where we are today, um, and what the church is called to.
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