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This podcast is for and about soldiers of the Canadian Army.
Its primary goal is to provide them with useful information through thoughtful and open discussions that reflect their mutual interests and concerns.
Though soldiers are our primary audience, the topics covered on this podcast should be relevant to anyone who supports our soldiers or who has an interest in Canadian military matters.
[ Music starts ]
Captain Adam Orton: Hi, I'm Captain Adam Orton with the Canadian Army Podcast. From flags to Morse code to satellites orbiting the earth, the communicate in the Army's ‘‘Shoot, Move, and Communicate’’ doctrine just doesn't happen by itself. In this episode, we explore the history, mission, and modern-day impact of the Royal Canadian Corps of Signals, or RCCS. The Army's specialists in enabling command and control. We have Colonel Jay Estrela, Director of the Signals Corps for Officers, to tell us how the Army supports communications. Welcome to the podcast, Sir.
Colonel Jay Estrela: Thanks for having me. It's my pleasure to be here.
[ Music ends ]
Capt Orton: All right, so people communicate all the time. We use technology to do it. We talk to each other. It's part of our everyday lives. Why do we need a whole corps to make all that happen?
Col Estrela: Right, I think that question actually harkens back to our history, because it was actually stood up based on the ingenuity of a young officer that sort of identified the need and that's kind of how we grew. To set the stage, it starts with a fellow by the name of Major Bruce Carruthers. So he was born in Kingston, graduate of the Royal Military College; had this military career, took him a lot of different places, but amongst those places was two tours fighting in South Africa in the Boer War. During one of those tours, he was responsible for signaling and teaching troops how to signal. So what that really meant back then was ‘‘How does a commander who doesn't have the technology that we have today pass messages securely to their forces so that they can direct the battle?’’ So that included things like signal lamps that could be shining in the distance that could signal a flanking force. “Hey, I need you to move now in this direction.” Or semaphore flags in different configurations could have included, like mirrors, even dispatch riders who are going to, let's say, a flanking formation or to a subordinate formation and providing orders of what that commander needs to do or intelligence on the adversary that they're facing. So it was really all about getting the message through securely. But he saw that there was very much a need to actually understand how to do that properly and have good technical skills in doing that. Now he comes back, writes this essay, which he puts into like the RMC kind of college place for folks to submit ideas.
Capt Orton: Yeah, like a White Paper type thing.
Col Estrela: Basically a White Paper on the need for skilled Signallers. A brigadier-general reads it and says, ‘‘That's a great idea.” Contacts him and says, ‘‘You're up. I want you to stand up the Royal Canadian Corps of Signals.’’
Capt Orton: Do-ocracy to its maximum, truly.
Col Estrela: Amazing. There's hope for all of us to get our good ideas and put them into practice.
Capt Orton: All right. So what does that look like today? Like if we break down the Corps into its individual trades, what do they each do and how does it look like?
Col Estrela: So I'll talk about kind of the five trades that are part of the Signals Corps and then the extended family, because the extended family is part of the Corps in certain nuances there. But within the Corps, so we have four non-commissioned trades. That's the Signal Operator, Sig Op, Line Technician, Information Systems Technician, and then the Signal Technician. And then we have an officer trade called the Signals Officer.
Capt Orton: So what do they each do? What's their role?
Col Estrela: Right, so the Signal Operator, like classically in movies, you see the person with the radio on their back. That's typically been the Signal Operator's role, so kind of staffing the comms or communications. But their role has really evolved. So it's more than just talking on a radio because everybody needs to talk on a radio. We need technical specialists. So they're kind of more of that integral with the forces forward, troubleshooting their systems, making sure that their radios and their satellite systems and all the communications gear that the manoeuvre forces like the Infantry and Armoured are using; they're kind of that first line of support to make sure all those systems are working.
Capt Orton: Yeah, it's not necessarily a technical skill to carry a radio, but especially on the modern battlefield, you've got tablets, you've got network systems and all sorts of stuff. And some Infanteers out there firing a rifle and we're like, ‘‘We need somebody to fix this thing.’’ That's the person.
Col Estrela: That's typically the person. Or they're probably already on top of it because they're a very proactive bunch. And they've got a broad set, like they also manage our encryption device capabilities and things like that. So very, very broad scope of work for that trade.
Capt Orton: And what about a Signals Tech?
Col Estrela: So Signals Tech would be kind of that next line of support. So when something is really broken and it can't be repaired, that's where a Signal Tech comes in and they're working mostly on like hardware and mostly on communication systems. So the actual like satellite systems, the actual radios, the hardware, even cabling in vehicles, like they're there to make sure that when those things break, they fix them, but they're also doing that preventative maintenance on that. So it's maintenance and repair is kind of a lot of what they do on hardware.
Capt Orton: And then we have Line Techs.
Col Estrela: So our Line Techs, we're one of the few, I think, Corps actually in the world that still have Line Technicians. Tactically, when we want to avoid broadcasting our emissions because of the electronic warfare threat, they're the folks that are running field phones, let's say between defensive positions or other sort of cable to connect the network. So kind of there's that tactical line piece where it's like, “‘Hey, we can't rely on our radio frequency systems because they'll be jammed.’’ So we need to make sure we've got some line connectivity where it's appropriate. So they're doing all that tactical stuff. But a lot of where they're actually employed is outside of the Army. So this building might have been actually cabled by Canadian Army Line Technicians because basically all of our installations, all of our antennas that need maintenance, so those big antennas that we would use to, let's say, communicate with a ship around the other side of the planet. That's all done by the Line Technicians just outside of the Army. So they're very much like true to their trade because they are Line Techs in the civilian world that are kind of climbing poles and running telephone wire or running fiber optic wire. They're doing all of that as well as the tactical piece, right? So they kind of cover that whole spectrum.
Capt Orton: And there's a lot of network cable in this building.
Col Estrela: Oh yeah. And I mean, even just to use an example, like at Kandahar Airfield, our Line Techs were used heavily to make sure, not just for Canada, but for the allied nations. The cable backbone that was needed for other nations to sort of connect their networks around the airfield, it was our Line Techs that were doing a lot of that work.
Capt Orton: It's pretty easy to conceive that value, even if you lived in an apartment with Wi-Fi and every other apartment has Wi-Fi and there's 27 networks fighting each other, you have now discovered the value of a wired network.
Col Estrela: Absolutely. And it's tried, it's tested, it's true. It's just that, you know, from a mobility perspective, it's always both, right?
Capt Orton: Yeah. And then we have Information System Techs.
Col Estrela: So Information System Techs focus mostly on the network. So they manage the network. So if you figure kind of like somebody who manages a data centre or is creating network accounts for people, managing more of the actual IT or Information Technology, that is our IS Tech. So they're doing a lot of the same role of the Signal Techs, but they're also doing a lot more of network administration to keep the network up and running, making sure that data is being passed and if it's not, ‘‘okay, what's wrong with my network?’’
Capt Orton: Where do officers fit into all this?
Col Estrela: Right. So I would say your non-commissioned members, they're kind of fighting the signals battle. Your Signals Officers are leading the signals battle because they're kind of like, we'll say a bound behind, looking at how all the trades are working together because they're responsible for the overall network. So they are understanding what is going on with the manoeuvre plan, understanding what the commander needs in order to pass information and make sure that they're able to command and control their forces, turning that into a plan which they're giving other folks, and they're overseeing the battle to say, ‘‘Hey, something's broken here, I need to prioritize effects here or prioritize some folks to repair something.’’ So they're sort of overall orchestrating the battles that are being fought by our non-commissioned members.
Capt Orton: And, you know, it often comes up in conversation is, ‘‘Why do we need military people to do these things? Why can't we have civilian people do them?’’ And there's always a lot of answers to that. What's your take on that situation?
Col Estrela: Well…So we do kind of play a dual role where we're doing that tactical stuff. We also do actually support the wider Canadian Armed Forces enterprise networks. But the real reason, our real reason for being is that tactical networking. And right now, everything on the battlefield, every sensor, whether it's an acoustic sensor, a drone, every effector. So if it's a missile system, artillery; that all either collects data and feeds it into the system or it says, ‘‘I need that data in order to do my job.’’ So that's the real reason for being for the Signals Corps, is to make sure that all of those systems are connected and we can fight as a coherent force that can actually pass data really, really quickly in order to make decisions and act quickly.
Capt Orton: Yeah. And when those people are being deployed operationally, it's got to be military members. We can't just throw random people on the front lines to figure it out for them.
Col Estrela: Exactly. Right? So it's kind of like, we're your Best Buy Geek Squad, but we wear green uniforms instead of blue shirts. And we are as deep as we can possibly be in terms of the technology because everybody needs it, soldiers down to the individual Infantry soldier level have tablets and things like that.
Capt Orton: That's right. The technology is definitely happening. A lot of the RCCS stuff is basically Army, but obviously the Army isn't the only element that does Signals and we do have that cyber operations stuff. Where do they fit in the whole machinery?
Col Estrela: So that's where we talk a little bit about the extended family. So there are two trades in the extended family and then there's kind of the extended, extended family. So your Signals Intelligence Specialist, so those are the folks intercepting signals on the battlefield, being able to find out where they came from, etcetera, etcetera. There's actually kind of a niche skill set that we employ Signals Intelligence Specialists in the Army in 21 Electronic Warfare or 21 EW Regiment. So when they're actually in uniform, they're part of the Corps, but the trade itself actually belongs to the Canadian Armed Forces Cyber Command. And there's a kind of a national signals intelligence role that they play there. But they are doing stuff on the battlefield to help us find the enemy when they, let's say, broadcast or push their pressel switch on their radio, protecting us to tell us, “Hey, like actually we're broadcasting these emissions and those that can be found.’’ as well as doing kind of that more strategic role. Then you also have your Cyber Operators. And we currently don't have any Cyber Operators in the Canadian Army, but hopefully that's something that changes. And again, when they do wear the Army uniform, they are technically part of the Corps. But right now they're employed explicitly in the, or exclusively, sorry, in the Canadian Forces Cyber Command because they're doing network defense. So we do a lot of network security stuff. So we're just making sure if… you use like an analogy, you know, a building needs locks, it needs punch card access control, like all those kinds of things. We need to make sure that those security access controls are in place. But you need somebody there that makes sure that, you know, they look at ‘‘something's off on that door. I think somebody tried to slip in and might now be inside the building.’’ That's where the cyber defenders kind of come in. So in the future, I think we'll be working a lot together, but I would like to get some cyber folks more involved in helping defend our networks.
Capt Orton: So let's paint a picture for people about what this looks like on the battlefield. So you start off with your standard Infantry section, Infantry platoon. They're in combat in some place. What do we have there for signals infrastructure that's supporting that?
Col Estrela: Right. So let's say you've got an infantry battalion. So an Infantry battalion has its Signals platoon. So it's sort of like, we'll say it's golf bag of Signallers to help solve its comms problems along with their SigOs, their Signals Officers actually leading that. So what you would end up seeing is a lot of Signal Operators are kind of pushed a little bit further forward and they're providing more of that integral support to the folks that are actually kind of on the front lines. But like I said previously, when I was describing the trades, they're ready to sort of phone a friend and say, “Hey, like this system is absolutely not working.’’ So we would have, let's say, Signal Technicians either with our headquarters and Signals squadron or Signals regiment. They're ready to kind of go out there with their mobile repair team to fix equipment that's broken. Same with the IS Techs, but they're probably back in a Network Operation Centre or Tactical Network Operation Centre keeping an eye on the battle, but if they have to go forward because, ‘‘Hey, something critical is broken on the network’’ , you know, a Signal Technician says, ‘‘Hey, that Satcom dish is broken. I need to get in there and fix that.’’ The IS tech says, ‘‘Hey, this server that's installed in a vehicle that actually runs the services that allow that company to communicate is broken.’’ Okay, I got to get in there and fix that. And the Line Tech is kind of like, “‘Hey, you know, the battalion CP is running some cable. That cable broke. I got to get out there and get some more cable run so we can get the message through.’’
Capt Orton: So you got your like Saving Private Ryan at the front lines where you got people ringing around with radios and somebody's trying to call. And then a little bit further back, you've got some sort of command post. And then you have technicians there that are standing by to either move forward or support there or fix problems. And then maybe further back, you have some sort of forward operating base that has some type of support. And then you have some sort of reach back that goes even further. What do those further reach backs kind of look like? What's happening over there now?
Col Estrela: Yeah, there's lines of support I would say, and it really depends on the echelon. First line is what you do to help an individual user. Second line, part of that is how do I help the first line? And then when you get into 3rd and 4th line, that's when you're getting into ‘‘Oh, I need to reach back to like higher level technical expertise that might exist at higher echelons.’’ And then even we could have a problem on the front line that we possibly can't fix. And that's using like, let's say the Chief of Signals in theater, for lack of a better term. They need to be able to phone back to Army headquarters and then we're getting in touch with Engineers, let's say at ADM Materiel, so the folks that buy these systems and build them for us, and they might even be getting in with Industry. There's kind of a trail that goes all the way from the frontline user who's fighting using the equipment all the way back to Industry in terms of like how do we get that thing fixed or swapped out?
Capt Orton: I'm listening to you talk about this stuff, right? And I'm thinking about my time in Afghanistan. I'm standing in the middle of a bowl of mountains. We're trying to use the radios. Nothing's working. Signals are just bouncing off of the mountains and not going to where we need them to go. And it makes me think, you know, there's real geographic limitations to the technology. If you live in a city, you don't really think about those things, but now when you're operating in an austere environment, there's a whole bunch of factors that affect communications, and that must figure into your job in a complex way as well.
Col Estrela: Absolutely. So I'll get a question on, “‘Do we use this technology or this technology?’’ And my answer is ‘‘yes.”
Capt Orton: Yeah, that's right.
Col Estrela: Because right now, actually, there is a lot of technology available to help us address this. And every Signaller will talk about their PACE plan.
Capt Orton: Yeah, that's right.
Col Estrela: PACE is an acronym for Primary, Alternate, Contingency, and Emergency, which is burned in every Signaller's brain.
Capt Orton: Works really well.
Col Estrela: So we want to have redundant systems. So that could be a mixture of tactile radios. And you talked about like complex terrain. So now we have mesh radios that can allow us to actually route. If I want to talk to you, but there's something in the way, but I have a route through a different radio, I can actually route around that mountain to get to you, even though you're the person I want to talk to. We're talking about satellite systems. Even we're going back to old high frequency communications is what we used to use a lot because it bounces off the ionosphere and allows us for longer range communications, but we can actually pass data using that. Even we want to bring our own cell networks, like private military cell networks that we secure. We want as much coverage because we know that we're going to deal with complex terrain. We know we're going to deal with electronic warfare, so jamming our systems. We know things are going to break. So you want to have enough clubs in your golf bag to select the right one and even better, have the network automatically select which one you use or use a mixture thereof, in order to get all the rich data we need to get through to fight in the battle space.
Capt Orton: What kind of strategic considerations do you look at in terms of operations and adversaries? We talked a little bit about laying wires versus wireless. The military's been talking a lot about decentralizing command posts or CPs and making them all spread out instead of having everyone centralized in one big command post in one area. What are some of the things that you're looking at when you're examining tactical operations that have adversaries?
Col Estrela: So you touched on a number of things there. So I think you talked about like, we'll say Electronic Warfare, dispersion and we'll say resiliency, survivability of our systems. So on the Electronic Warfare front, we actually need to better sort of flower that knowledge because of just the ubiquity of electronic warfare and jamming and direction finding systems that we're seeing in current conflicts. So basically what we need to be able to do is prepare to “If we're jammed, how do we kind of get around that?’’ Electronic Warfare is a consideration. It's not just for signals. Like frontline soldiers, let's say in the war in Ukraine are actually getting that training as part of their like basic training, I read the other day. Dispersion. So the Afghanistan era, we actually had very, very large command posts because we could just layer on, just sort of build the brain because the headquarters is kind of the brain of the Commander who makes decisions. We can't do that anymore because they're targets. So now we actually need to take chunks of that and separate on the battlefield and separate it far enough that we can protect the survivability of the overall brain, even if we lose parts of it. So then with that as well comes Resiliency and Survivability. Really, I want as many systems as I can possibly get, everywhere I can get them. So I want servers in vehicles, I want servers in the cloud, and I want servers in a closet somewhere in Canada, in Europe, wherever. Because it's all about your ability to take sort of damage or have something go offline because you're impacted by either physical damage. We talked about electronic warfare, but also cyber, like you know, attacking, like, let's say, hitting some of our infrastructure. We need to be able to Failover, right? So that Resiliency and Survivability piece is a feature of modern warfare that we didn't necessarily deal with back in the counterinsurgency days.
Capt Orton: Something that I think a lot of people don't think about is the operational planning process for that stuff, right? What we just talked about is the tactical battle. You have a soldier with a radio who's talking on the radio, fixing a radio or whatever. That's what's happening now. But there's a lot of thought also that goes into 5, 10 years before. It's like “Okay, if we go somewhere, how do we make all this work?’’ So tell us a little bit about that process.
Col Estrela: What I say to like Signals Officers, because I am a Signals Officer, is I need you to be technology leaders. Like you're not there to just manage and orchestrate. That's part of your job, but you need to understand trends in battle, understand how they're fought, advise accordingly, because we want to make sure that our fellow soldiers in the combat arms aren't trying to do something from an uber perspective that would defy the irrefutable laws of physics when it comes to our system's ability to support it. But really understand where warfare is going, and Lead, because only we have that skill set really in the Canadian Army. Obviously, we have some folks that are interested in digital outside of the Signals Corps, but we really need to sort of tell them ‘‘We need to start looking at something now in order for it to deliver down the road or to be really good at it, let's say 10 years down the road.’’ So I can use an example as like right now in my other hat as the Director of Digital and Army Combat Systems Integration. We are heavily leveraging cloud technologies, started to use them on domestic operations, but we're trying to operationalize them, because the cloud is here now. It provides a whole ton of benefits in terms of our ability to rapidly develop software and rapidly address capability deficiencies that might exist on the battlefield. So if a soldier has a problem where ‘‘Hey, I physically do not have the software that can do something’’ I want to get them software within a couple weeks and they say, ‘‘Thanks, I'm now better at my job.’’ As well as that kind of resiliency of relying on cloud and even using the cloud to rebuild, like so if I have a server that breaks. Instead of trying to repair it, it might be quicker if I just take one off-the-shelf, plug it into the cloud, say build me another one, hit a button and it builds it. So all that to say is like to your question, we need to look at those trends and we need to stay on top of that early so that we have capabilities that we think we're going to need 10 years down the road.
Capt Orton: And the thing is, you can't just necessarily take commercial cloud services and run it, because as the military, we have to consider the exploitability of those services and the risk and accessibility in operational spaces.
Col Estrela: Absolutely. There are rules and security is top of mind. Now we do use like, let's say public cloud services. There is the aspect of classified cloud and I think there's a lot of discussion on that going on where it's basically a cloud that you can process like let's say secret or even higher information in but it is separate from what you would use in the public cloud or what you are familiar to using with every day because every time your phone connects to something, it's connected to the cloud, right?
Capt Orton: That's right.
Col Estrela: So really it's about how we develop and how we put in place security in order to make sure that, yeah, sometimes we're using commercial off-the-shelf and we're able to protect that because we put security on top of it. But there are times where we have to use very explicit, we'll say government or military off-the-shelf systems, where it's got a very specific crypto and that crypto is used so that I know I can communicate with you at like, let's say the secret level and we have reasonable assurance that our communications are protected.
Capt Orton: So when we look at even the modern-day battlefield versus the days of Afghanistan, the complexity of the technology has increased dramatically. How do you handle the challenge with those things being more difficult to repair on the battlefield? Because I'm assuming you can't just ask a person to build an LCD screen for a tablet like live, like in the background. How do you manage that?
Col Estrela: I would say understanding that attrition is a feature, not a bug. So we can put as much ruggedization around things, but when you ruggedize something, you make it bigger, you make it heavier, you make it more exquisite. In a lot of cases, what we're looking to do is “Can I get something where I can fill up a hard case full of spares and actually then replace it quickly as opposed to trying to fix that thing or tape it together to make it work?’’ So that really is, I think, in the modern battle space, like where we're going. Even just to use a quick example, I was at a talk yesterday. This was very, very big network-y stuff, but using, I talked about cloud, it no longer takes me a few weeks to build a tactical server that I put in a vehicle. Like I should be able to plug that in the cloud and then use modern tools that are more complex, but actually the complexity makes my life easier if I can build automation into it.
Capt Orton: Right.
Col Estrela: So I think a lot of things are building automation into things so that we can have hot spares. So instead of like having to protect this exquisite device that I'm giving to the Infantry, it's like “Don't worry if you break it, it takes me 3 minutes to spin up another one and I'll fly it out to you on a drone.’’ We’re not doing that but…
Capt Orton: Not there yet.
Col Estrela: Not there yet, but I think that's where we'll be, right?
Capt Orton: No, that's a really good example. I've never really thought of it that way. And, you know, sometimes when I'm talking to my colleagues or friends about drones, it's $200 drone in your pocket that if it gets crushed too bad, there's like seven more in the back of the truck versus a $20,000 drone that you need to treat like your first born child or the Sergeant Major will ruin your life because you broke the very expensive piece of equipment. So that makes a lot of sense.
Col Estrela: Yeah, I talk about there's like exquisite capabilities and then democratized capabilities because information technology has become so cheap. You can build cheap things that are then attritable, but there's still going to be a need to have certain systems that are like “Actually, I do need a military grade system for this specific function.’’ So, we talk about like our radios at a certain level when you're talking at the secret level. You need something that has that crypto in it that can only be done by a military off-the-shelf exquisite system, very expensive, and we'll protect those. But if it's a radio that I can just buy a bunch of these, then you have a little bit more freedom and then you're not sort of worried about that attrition thing as much.
Capt Orton: Tell us a little bit about the training. What is it like if you're a non-commissioned officer in one of these fields?
Col Estrela: All of our trades, like our home station is Kingston, Ontario. So effectively folks would go there. That is the campus where folks would do their basic trades training. So the way it would kind of work in the Army is we would do sort of basic training, our common Army training, and then you go to Kingston and that's where we are building Signallers and we are focused on the technology, but not just sort of how to use the systems that we have, but more understanding how they work, how they work in the big picture so that when we replace new systems, you're not like, “Well, I was trained on that system. I don't know how to use this one.’’ You've got that theoretical or that fundamental basics to be able to apply your skill set to either replacement systems or new systems that kind of come down the pipe. But we have recently for our non-commission members for our SIG Techs that we started this, it's the NCM STEP program. And forgive me, I don't remember what that stands for.
Capt Orton: No, I don't remember, but you were going to explain it. It's going to be pretty self-explanatory. So I think it'll be right.
Col Estrela: Yeah. So it's basically like if you get a college diploma, you can come into the Signal Technician trade. And we're going to do that for the Information Systems Technician trade as well, because we know that folks are studying at colleges, getting the exact type of skill sets they need. All we really need them to do is, you know, we write off a bunch of training, but we just need you to come in and learn the military context of those skills. And then they're off to a field unit and they're off to working with Army, like heavy metal. So…
Capt Orton: Yeah, the heavy metal. And on the officer side, what is required to become an Officer?
Col Estrela: So different entry points. So obviously folks can go to Royal Military College and study there, or they can go to a civilian university. Now we look for folks with like science, technology, engineering or math degrees, so STEM degrees. So actually like to get into the Signals Officer trade, we actually have very stringent set of guidelines in terms of we're looking for engineers, computer scientists, physicists, mathematicians, like folks that can take that background knowledge and then apply it to signals, right? So, I myself am actually an Engineering Physicist.
Capt Orton :Nice
Col Estrela: So I've kind of studied a lot of, we'll say niche topics in Electrical Engineering, but I can confidently say that when I did my Basic Signals Officer training and we would talk about technology, I was able to be like “Okay, I understand how radio propagation works, like how that, like what's happening when you hit that pressel switch’’ Because I need to know that as a Signals Officer because I have that background.
Capt Orton: Well, I love what you were saying about the physics side. I'm not a signaller, but I did do a signals course, like learning how to use radios and all sorts of things like that. And the intermediate Comms course, I think, covers a lot of radio wave science and how it all works and how to design antennas and come up with solutions to problems. And there's a lot of concepts there that are physics-oriented that, you know, when you come in as just a ground pounding infantry person, you don't think you're going to be sitting down learning like radio wave physics to figure out how to solve problems, but it's all in there.
Col Estrela: Absolutely. And the best example is we're getting back into high frequency communications because we got used to very high frequency or ultra high frequency. Those work well point-to-point. They work well when you can erect, let's say an antenna mast, like you can rebroadcast very easily and they're permanent, as they were in Afghanistan. But now we need to be able to traverse long distances. And like if you're doing training, the first week is all radio frequency theory. Because you need to understand that in order to understand how to build the right antenna, and then actually then employ the radio with that antenna and things like that.
Capt Orton: If you don't know what the tools do, you can't choose the tools for the job for sure.
Col Estrela: Yeah. So it's a very exciting space for folks that are interested in those kind of things.
Capt Orton: What are some of the challenges within your trades and how are you looking at addressing them?
Col Estrela: Right. As part of modernization, the Corps has actually been tasked to look at how do we upskill some of our non-signallers
Capt Orton :Right
Col Estrela: In order to take some burden off our precious resource, because we only have so many Signallers in the Army and a lot of them are employed outside of the Army. So understand that we do have a very tech savvy workforce and a force that if there's something they can do to make something work and not have to wait for a Signaller, I think folks are open to that. So we're going to be looking at trying to upskill or train some folks to get some more knowledge on how to maintain these systems, so that we can focus signallers on only things that they can do. Other than that, we're pushing hard on recruiting and trying to get folks in. If there's technical problem solvers out there that want to come in, we definitely have a role for you because we have a lot of technical problems to solve. And we've got some capability development, some projects coming down the road where we're modernizing our equipment. And the key thing there is like getting cool kit or modern communications and information gear into their hands. What we find is like our techs and our operators just find unique ways of using it to solve problems. They really achieve some self-actualization from that because they kind of see how useful they are, the role that they play in terms of enabling the Army to fight.
Capt Orton: Do you have any examples of unique ways that people have solved problems?
Col Estrela: So I can use like sort of one example or I can talk about a number, but I went and visited a unit. They showed me a system they built because back in the day, radio operator had to fill out a log.
Capt Orton: Yeah.
Col Estrela: So paper log.
Capt Orton: I've done that. Yeah.
Col Estrela: You've done that. Then we went digital, but then it was them typing stuff into a log. So they built this kind of system where we've got a radio, it's broadcasting. You've got sort of a computer they kind of built on the other end that listens to that, transcribes it to task, automatically populates it into the log.
Capt Orton: Oh, that's cool.
Col Estrela: So basically for them and just using a few corporals, master corporals, kind of had this idea, put it together, and we're right now looking at “Okay, how do we make this part of our wider system?’’ Rolling up innovation is a challenge, remains a challenge, but what I would say to our young Signallers is “Don't stop, like keep going. It's on us leaders to figure out how we can take those unique things you build and turn them into Canadian Army-wide capabilities.’’
Capt Orton: I really like also how the concept of innovation directly translates to efficiency in the sense that if you really dig down to it when you're talking about the history at the beginning. We used to have people who would run with flags and stuff to communicate things, and that took too many people, so we used equipment to do things with less people, and that's kind of what you're talking about right now.
Col Estrela: Yeah, well there's a little bit of efficiency, but I think there's a paradox out there that says ‘‘When something becomes efficient, use more of it.’’ So really that efficiency allows us to be better, but allow us to maybe use less folks for a specific task so that we can get them on another task because our list of tasks have grown, right? So it's a never-ending battle, but it's a good battle because it means our overall capability is growing.
Capt Orton: That's amazing. You know, honestly, I came in here thinking I knew a lot about signals, but I've learned a lot about how the Corps works. So I guess podcast successful. Thanks so much for coming out and telling us all about this stuff.
Col Estrela: Thanks for having me. It was my pleasure. I could probably talk for another two hours, as I like to say, you know, when I'm talking about one of my favorite things, the Royal Canadian Corps of Signals. There's challenges ahead, like we are still going through this modernization, but I think bit by bit, we're seeing a lot of those, you know, quick wins and we're seeing that across the force and there's a lot of optimism for what we're going to bring to the battle, like in the near term, but also in the long term. Because as we've seen, digital technology is everywhere and we understand our role in ensuring that that critical piece for the Military or for the Army is there to help us win our battles.
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Capt Orton: Looking forward to seeing how it all shakes out. All right. Thanks again, sir.
Col Estrela: Thank you.
Capt Orton: That was Colonel Jay Estrela, Director of the Officers' Side of the Royal Canadian Corps of Signals. And I'm Captain Adam Orton for the Canadian Army Podcast. Orton out.
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