Wake Up Excited!

Brad Frost sits down with legendary graphic designer Aaron Draplin to discuss his distinctive thick line style and extensive portfolio, ranging from logos to the iconic Field Notes brand. The conversation takes a deep dive into the complexities of work, hustle, and burnout, along with the struggle to overcome a scarcity mindset despite achieving financial stability. They also reflect on redefining success, simplifying life, and staying true to intrinsic motivators over external pressures. Topics include life transitions, the importance of family, and Brad's advice to Aaron on planning a sabbatical. Aaron also shares anecdotes about personal growth and the evolving nature of creative pursuits. Don't miss this insightful discussion on creativity, life balance, and the joy of authentic work.

Topics discussed:

(00:00) - Introduction
(00:19) - Meet Aaron Draplin: The Designer Dynamo
(01:06) - Deep Dive into Work, Hustle, and Burnout
(01:17) - Redefining Success and Simplifying Life
(01:48) - Supporting the Show and Online Courses
(02:28) - Aaron Draplin's Website Journey
(04:19) - The Struggles and Joys of Authenticity
(06:59) - Financial Stability and Scarcity Mindset
(13:26) - Life Transitions and Sabbaticals
(17:18) - The Importance of Joy and Personal Fulfillment
(21:39) - Navigating Financial Independence
(27:15) - Reflections on Life and Career Choices
(52:14) - The Role of Service and Giving Back
(53:58) - The Freedom of Ideas
(55:17) - Summer Jobs in Alaska
(57:26) - The Work Ethic Instilled by Family
(58:17) - The Struggle with Gaps and Productivity
(01:03:45) - Balancing Work and Personal Projects
(01:11:32) - The Value of Hard Work and Advice
(01:25:47) - Decluttering and Prioritizing
(01:34:20) - Reflecting on Life and Career Choices
(01:38:37) - Concluding Thoughts and Future Plans

Links Mentioned:

Books

Movies

TV Shows

Game of Thrones

Websites

People

Bands/Artists

Creators and Guests

Host

Brad Frost

Creator, web designer & developer, teacher, consultant, speaker, writer, musician, & artist. Author of Atomic Design. Enthusiasm enthusiast.

Guest

Aaron Draplin

Graphic Designer. He’s been fiercely independent since 2004, and isn’t going back anytime soon.

Editor

Chris Enns

I edit podcasts so you don't have to.

What is Wake Up Excited!?

Inspiring conversations with exuberant humans about how to live a creative, fulfilling, and authentic life. Hosted by enthusiasm enthusiast, Brad Frost.

We experience a brief moment of truth when we first wake up in the morning. Before the cold shower of reality, our infinite to-do lists, and macro-level woes seize our consciousness. We experience a brief moment of excitement — and this pure moment tells us something important about ourselves.

There are people out there who seem to move through life with intention, authenticity, creativity, kindness, and enthusiasm. And they do this despite the deeply inperfect world we inhabit. This podcast is an attempt to learn from these people.

Through wide-ranging conversations, Wake Up Excited explores guests' passions, interests, enthusiasms, and philosophy of life.

Welcome to Wake Up.

Excited.

I'm Brad Frost, and in this
episode I talk with the designer

dynamo, Mr. Aaron Draplin.

Aaron is a legendary graphic designer,
putting his distinctive thick line mark on

seemingly everything under the sun, logos,
posters, hats, shirts, toothbrushes,

the United States postage stamp, and of
course the iconic Field Brands Notebooks.

Aaron and I met many years ago, and I've
always resonated with his authenticity,

which really feels to be born from
growing up in post-industrial America.

And perhaps working class America is
also why I've always been attracted

to this very seventies retro graphic
design aesthetic, which really is the

Draplin Design Company signature style.

So we have a long and hilarious
and meandering conversation where

we talk about the double-edged
sword of work and success.

We talk about work, hustle, and burnout.

We talk about the ongoing tension
of overcoming a scarcity mindset,

even whenever you achieve a certain
level of financial stability.

We talk about redefining what success
is and what really enough means.

We talk about letting go of things,
decluttering and simplifying your

life, and we really talk about aligning
your life to your intrinsic motivators

rather than being pulled around
by a bunch of external pressures.

We also talk about life transitions
and taking care of the people in our

lives, and I also give some advice
to Aaron on how to successfully

plan and execute a sabbatical.

There's a lot to dig into, but before we
do, I just wanted to remind you that Wake

Up Excited is a real labor of love, and
this whole affair is totally self-funded.

So if you want to support the
show and support me and my work

and my family, I'd love it if you
checked out our online courses.

We have a comprehensive course
all about design tokens.

We have a new Atomic Design
certification course And we're

about to announce another exciting
course that I will be sharing soon.

I'd love it if you checked out our
online courses at bradfrost.com

slash courses Now without any more
windup, here's my conversation with

the one and only Aaron Draplin.

Aaron: By the way, I said no to all the
other podcasts, ' but you being a, a wild

bass player, and a and a dad to a little
Tea cup human, a beautiful little baby,

A little who's maybe not a baby anymore,
but I see how you celebrate your family,

I don't give two shits.

What you do for, you you know what
you're like for me, a Cabell sasser.

do you know him

Brad Frost: No.

Aaron: from Panic?

Panic is the FTP guys here in Portland.

They did transport and a bunch of things.

Anyway,

he's one of these guys so smart.

smart, such a sweet guy, employs a
bunch of his buddies and is always

doing something interesting, and
has incredible stories about like he

talked with Steve Jobs 20 years ago or
something, and they offered him something.

He was on the forefront
of all this math but

He's an enigma to me.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: a little of that too, because
that's like, well, I met you, you

weren't this like go-getter that
was gonna like put a knife to my

throat and off you just talk to me.

You know,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: well, here's who
I am, here's what I do.

I get a lot of that.

I'm good with it.

But all these years later,
you're still a bit of a mystery.

But when I see you, I don't
tune into whatever, I don't even

know what you do, Brad Frost.

I tune into seeing you ripping on
the on drums or things, enjoying time

with your little girl or, you know,

whatever, whatever.

You know, it's

like,

Brad Frost: yeah,

Aaron: to me.

Around here, that's all
we've been talking about,

Brad Frost: yes.

Aaron: to slow it all down.

Brad Frost: And that's exactly what
I wanna get into because it's just

like, oh, you're a kindred spirit.

I know that you are operating in a similar
way and have a similar set of values.

And you're real.

And I think that that's the thing
that this whole show is about.

Like, as somebody who doesn't
really give a shit about podcasting.

I have many vehicles for disseminating
real and practical information.

And this ain't it.

We'll get into it, but this is all born
of, I feel like, the same frustration that

you let me know about in your response
to my invitation for you to come on here.

Aaron: Yeah.

Brad Frost: I wrote it down.

It's like, fair warning.

But I wanna pick at what you've
already started talking about is what

has you waking up excited right now?

What's what is new and exciting
in the world of Aaron Draplin?

Aaron: Well thank you.

You know, everybody all 777,000,
all seven viewer listeners and

viewers, all seven of you listen up.

Press record.

the last four summers.

like a do Like a dumb ass, I
piecemealed a new website together.

Brad Frost: Okay.

Aaron: Now, understand this after we're
talking about decade plus of being

berated by Brad Frost all over the world.

Not you didn't do it, just say intelligent
people who understand that if you

have a good website and an up to up to

date website, you can get a
little farther these things.

So I have these guys.

Any number of interventions at these
gigs I go to, we need to talk to

you, aside, and here's three turkey
dicks from Turkey Dick Design, and

they're gonna rebuild my entire site.

And we're gonna and repopulate and
Oh, I don't, I put money on the table.

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Aaron: ago and said,
okay, well then do it.

Let's do it.

And then the ex excuses started.

I've put money on the table because
they had a proprietary Zim Zam

that they were gonna sell me.

The excuses start.

So you just step back from
that and you go, you know what?

This hunk of shit movable type thing,
it's still generating, I have to be Okay.

with this much.

Whatever that this much was, it was
a substantial amount of merch sales.

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aaron: Now I can generate
this much plus four more.

I have to grow four more
little fingers off this hand.

Okay.

So what I did was during the Pando, Dem,

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Aaron: a Squarespace.

And we started to rebuild this thing.

And I thought through just how that
navigation or un navigation's gonna work.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: I came to this very
quick impasse, is this just

about selling mergers, about
showing all the shit you've done?

And I just said, I'm gonna do all of it.

And that's not very popular
when smart guys come to you

and say, well, we can put you

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: X, Y, and Z and you
can sell this much stuff.

see, they would look at me and they
go, well, we can go look at abandoned

carts and things and stuff, and we
can see how you're frustrating people.

Well, I mean, here's the
scary part is like, Well,

that's great, but let's
say we get that right.

What happens when I have to tell Lee,
you have to work nine days out of the

the five, you're supposed to work.

girl, you know, Lee, my, my little
smooch, helps me with the merch.

We, you know, we are a two man band, two
person band, and we work in the backyard.

So that could have very well happened.

So the last four summers I did, the
first summer was like, just getting

the basics down the sec. by the way,

when the fall rips back into it, we are
busy on the road, and then we're going

to Adobe, and then the, the merch season
starts, and then January, oh, it's

so hard to be blah, blah, blah, blah.

Next thing you know, I have a couple
things in the spring and we're

right back into these cycles, right?

Next thing you know, you're 50 years old.

Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

What the

hell?

In November 20.

November 25th, after these four
summers, we rallied this summer

and I've put this new site up and
I'm just here to say it works.

Squarespace, but one half is
everything I've ever done.

It took a long, the rock and roll
section alone is 48 chapters.

You know what happens when you
go to sporting goods or whatever?

That's another 60 what I mean 60
things I have to show well, you

have to find the things you gotta
shoot 'em, You gotta talk about it.

You gotta get the dates.

Okay.

Okay all this Well, I did that on the
other hand bit of merch I've ever made.

It's all up there So people didn't even
know I had 140 hats 'cause the last

site which was garbage from 2004 Was
pretty hot shit in 2004, but worked.

So one of the things I like to talk
about on the road, have you ever

heard of the Pocket Protector Gallery?

Brad Frost: No, but I love it.

Aaron: now what this is, some, some,
some 19 94, 96 website technology.

it still works.

It still works.

And here it's John, a Pope,
Poman or Poman or whatever.

Okay.

this still works.

If I wanna go look at a

bunch of pocket protectors,
he's still adding to it and the

beauty, and we can make fun of the
purple links and the blue links.

So in some respects, when
guys would come after me.

I would say, go look at Poman.

It still works.

It doesn't work in your phone as
nicely, but this is built before phones.

So here's the deal.

If you wanna look at pocket
protectors, like I like to, you can

go look.

So how's it any different
if a kid's finding myself?

So all that, whatever.

We launched that fucker November 25th.

is working swimmingly . December is
always our wildest month of the year.

We worked so much in December, up to
that December 20th cutoff or whatever.

And by the way, all you 700,000
people listening, thank you

for buying some shit from us.

Thank you.

Wally, we're gonna
track your package down.

We're, we're looking, I'll just send
another one out if it doesn't find

you if you're listening, because you
know, a couple things went missing.

So that is really this weird
precipice you get to where you

say, all right, it's all online.

It's easier for me to show stuff.

I am de platforming myself, which means
like, don't have the heart right now

the daily meanderings that I've showed
for as many years as I've showed my

Insta Grizz because there's a bunch
of these fascists and shit running it.

what happens if someday we woke
up and if it, it wasn't TikTok

getting turned off, which I've
never really been interested in.

So I, my heart wasn't all that tested.

But what happens if it was
Instagram that I made all my money

on and showed all my bullshit.

And you know, what, I, what are

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aaron: people, smart people are doing.

They're pointing at things,
God, insufferable, insufferable.

Look at me.

Oh, how do I make this logo round?

Or how do I make it fucking insufferable.

I can't even look at it.

So I'm, I don't wanna
be one of those guys.

Brad Frost: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think what you're touching on though is
there's an authenticity to stuff, right?

And that's the big difference is
that there's performative shit.

There's marketing shit.

There's like the Yeah, like literal
tap dancing, tap dancing for stuff.

But then there's the route that both
of us maybe have taken is this natural

extension of your being, right.

And that's very interesting
because it's very different.

'cause obviously like you
are very incentivized to sell

your stuff, as am I, right?

We're both business owners and we're
like, please give me money, right?

Like, that's how this works.

we're both incentivized to
like, sell our shit, right?

But there's a's an authenticity.

the way the world isn't there and the way
that you are on the inside there's this

friction or incompatibility where it's
like you could smell bullshit a mile away.

You see a bunch of shitty people
owning and operating these platforms

and you're like, can't do it.

Right?

And I think that's really fascinating
because it's this phenomenon that I bump

up against seemingly every day of my life.

And I wanna like get at with you.

And the, the what you are working on.

And I'm hearing this trend
of like, I am downshifting.

You even use that word.

I use that word too.

It's just like, oh my God, when
you've been firing on all cylinders

for so long, you hit this threshold
where that isn't tenable anymore.

But you're also like in this like
kind of different season of life.

And another thing I wanna get
at, you did it a year sabbatical,

like I did three months and I was
like, man, this like changed me

Aaron: don't think I actually did it.

I don't think I actually did it.

Brad Frost: at the end of the day.

Aaron: mean, I talked about it,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: is the lure goes into the water
and you bite on that fucker because

it's like, there's opportunities,
there's things, there's jobs.

Because I take care of my girl, I
take care of my mom, I take care

of my sisters, and then every
now and again, my buddy, Dale.

you put those all together, I, I
got a lot of weight on my shoulders.

One thing I wanted to say about what
you were saying before, it's like,

when I say de platforming, uh, the
other day a kid wrote me and he said,

Lin, I found your old flicker account.

I never knew you had that much in

there.

And I hadn't looked at
it in over a decade.

I went back to it and I just
scrolled through some shit.

what I loved about that,
it was like an Instagram.

It was just a way to show things now, but
there was no incentivizing, Hey, come,

maybe they'd come buy some DDC stuff.

But I just liked the sharing
and the sort of back and forth.

If you take it one step before that,
used the shit out of my MySpace.

share things and show 'cause
someone could click through a

bunch of images and see what
I was finding on the road and

learn from that like I did.

I did that with my Instagram the last
12 years they're freaking me out.

Whoever owns that whole thing, meta
or whatever the hell, you know, fine.

So how do I pull that back?

Because if you're interested in my
little take on junk or old things

or slowing down, you can come to
the Draplin.com and dig around.

That's, that was my ask for the guy.

was like, and whether or not I get L
licks, clicks, likes, links, dons, I don't

even know what the metric is anymore, how
many I got, and I don't even give a fuck.

It was just fun to share.

When I pull back now, I still have to post
things I did a thing yesterday for Ann

Arbor because I'm going to speak there.

I promise that young lady, I would
post so people would get the word out.

There's lots of comments and
there's people planning and

they're driving from Indiana.

and They're gonna come

from Cleveland over to
see this, this show.

I'm doing an so it's a tool, but like,
how do we pull that thing back, you know?

So as part of trying to be creative,
how I do this, I don't wanna just come

and say, I'm gonna turn everything off,
and then that's just not realistic.

And then I'm going to go build a
cabin in the woods and be a hermit.

But in summer, there's something
romantic about that, but it lasts about

three days, when you can't get into
your Wells Fargo or some shit, you

know, it's like,

how old are you, by the way?

Brad Frost: you celebrated
and I celebrated 40.

Yeah.

Aaron: your party.

Okay, you had your party.

Right, right, right, right.

So I did see some photos
looked pretty fun.

does it freak you out?

the, the stuff that when we go
on the road and people say to

me, okay, you are an open book.

We can ask you anything.

What scares you?

And I'll go, let's talk.

Um,

Brad Frost: yeah.

Aaron: being broke, I know what
that tastes like a little bit.

Brad Frost: Yes.

Aaron: And, uh, I'll never go back
to that because in my thirties and

my forties, I worked my ass off.

So now do I continue to
keep that beast going?

Cause it's harder and harder to do it.

Or do I just start

to coast on the little acorn pile that
I, I collected for the winter because how

do we creatively, like what if I was just
to say, fuck it, frost, I'm retiring.

Let's go do the math.

So I've been really
interested in those scenarios.

Now, I don't know what I would do
with all my time, but it probably has

something to do with collecting legos
and other stupid little tri trivial

things, learning things on my guitar, uh,

putting records on walls,
putting them on that.

Record player and doing stuff like that.

Those are the things I enjoy.

So a lot of what I've been talking
about on the road is when they go,

well, what, what gets you out of bed?

Joy, what do I just enjoy?

What delights me now?

I make some fun things?

Like middle aged t-shirts and
shit that make fun of these dumb

ideas that bring delight and

joy to someone else and make a
little buck to keep the lights on.

The answer is you can, but I don't
know, if my heart is in it to solve

people's logos and stuff anymore.

The moment you open that fucker
up, they're stopping you.

They're starting you,
you're in holding patterns.

Oh, you're on phone calls about
phone calls, emails about emails.

When, what's interesting?

If I only make my own dumb shit, you
know, not even Draplin Design, like I

I made a sticker that said, be easy,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: You'll with it.

But I never saw another
sticker that said that.

That is a, uh, a rumination for me.

To slow my life down

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: and

maybe someone would buy that
and say to their spouse or to

their partner or their buddy.

Hey be easy You're making shit too hard
and then we think about you know on some

level of I make a little buck off that
little bit of entertaining or something?

So we you know We've been talking about
that because I gotta tell you in the

last month It's been hard to get out of
bed because I have to chart a new course

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: chart a new course It's scary
and I don't I know it's not involving

being stressed freaked out Getting
on planes, getting off planes.

You know, I know that
you are a Brad Frost.

There's only one of those and you're
probably in demand to go talk and

speak and do things and make things
and do things, you know, got to be

one of those for a lot of years,
but how do I just turn it off?

It's okay to turn it off

and graciously say, you guys around.

Thank you.

You know, hopefully I, I
sh shook everyone's hand.

I was nice to everybody.

And then how do you,
because here's the deal.

And I always say this on podcasts.

I've been in the back stages I've seen
the guy who didn't quite know that his

shit was done and they're fighting it.

And they're

mean.

The 51-year-old is mean to the Brad
Frost who's 40 and a half because he

is got some new thing that's coming up.

And it's like, that's just
somewhere I drop off and you

keep on going until you drop.

instead of you being told, you're done.

How about I just stop it?

we've been just having these conversations
about like, don't take the bait on

going to this next hot shit thing.

You're gonna be on the
plane for a whole day.

to eat, hard to, you
know, you know, et cetera.

You're gonna spend a great day
in Omaha, Nebraska with all

the youngsters, you know, for a

whole day on Thursday.

back on Friday, man, you lose
two days of your life, getting

there and coming on back now.

The way I creatively dealt with that
for the last 575 shows you can see

'em all they're all listed on the site

I would work on the way there and I
would work on the way back And when

I would get there They wanna go to
the coolest monosyllabic restaurant.

I'd say I'll just go back to the
hotel I'm gonna work tonight get

all my shit done so I can spend
thursday with you guys right now.

So I did that.

I creatively used my time to kill
knights and birds with one stone.

But see, harder and harder to do.

So what gets me out of bed?

The idea of like, today I'm
just gonna clean my shop.

no paycheck that comes from that, but
I, I have paychecks in the bank today.

I'm gonna work on uh, you
know, Oh, I gotta be careful.

I just go off the phone with some
folks from, um, rhymes with Rone.

I got off the folks with some
folks with Pantone about who knows.

And it's an interesting conversation
because it's like, Hey man, if I can

figure out something, I'll pitch you.

But if I don't, it's okay.

Still using the shit every hour.

How can I tell that story to a kid?

Uh, I don't know,

Brad Frost: You're
picking a couple things.

There's joy your core value there it is.

Now how do you apply that in
the world and how does that

application change over time?

That's really interesting because there's
a season to grind as hard as you can

and earn as much big bucks as you can
so that you have the acorns lined up.

But not saying like totally mission
accomplished, but are whole things

about those fire, like financial
independence, retire early, where you

bust your ass and get that little nest
egg going and then you can downshift

or turn it off entirely or just go
build Lego sets or whatever, right?

It's fascinating to me because I'm
literally in the exact same position

as you, Erin, like right before
today I announced that I was like.

Leaving the company I was helping
run for the last couple years,

and I'm going off on my own.

And my intention is to do anything
I feel like, like I've been doing

client services work, I've been
working for companies for 20 years.

Right?

So not as long as you, but just like you
were saying earlier, it's like the logo

comes in and then there's the emails about
the emails and the thing about the thing.

And there's this intrinsic motivation
that I think maybe we both share that

we know that we can just do whatever we
want or what we feel like and we know

that it'll have like decent outcomes.

Some of those things will make
you money, some of them won't.

But there's this over dialing
Oh, on the money thing that kind

of ends up getting in the way.

That's when you see those people who
have been working the career that

they've had for 20 years and they
suddenly wake up one morning and they

realize that they wasted their lives.

Right?

'cause they've over dialed so
much on the stability that money

provides at the expense of living
a. More joyful or fulfilled life.

It's fascinating to me because
like what I see is a lot of people,

whether they're kids or people like a
little further down the road, they're

all still like doing that, dance.

And when people like us come along
and have them dig a bit deeper and

remind them of the cosmos or remind
them of our place in all of this or

that you're allowed to think however
you want or do whatever you want.

And there's no permission slip, like
we have agency, we have the ability

to just make things with our hands.

And if you wanna learn guitar,
then learn guitar and do it.

If you wanna figure out
how to bake, then do it.

Like, like there's literally
nothing stopping people.

Aaron: How do.

Brad Frost: Which, which is real, right?

Like it's, it is a real thing.

It like, these are absolutely real things,
but people use that as an excuse to.

Deprive of the joy of, of living, right?

Aaron: Have you ever like met someone
and you're like, you don't worry about

shit, but we're missing something here.

How do you cover insurance?

This that, and you come to find out
it's just a bunch of family money.

Brad Frost: yeah.

Aaron: like, Oh, fuck off.

You didn't tell me that.

came down on me.

You worked too much.

grappling.

You didn't tell me

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: such a leg up on the rest of us.

then you played that you, you spent
that currency in a different way.

Brad Frost: Yep,

Aaron: here because come from that.

Brad Frost: yep.

Aaron: response of like, Oh shit,
I gotta take care of my mom.

I gotta take care of Lee.

But what happens you get to
a point where you're like.

I might have enough to just
cover things for a long time

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Aaron: I kinda recalibrate to make
things a little easier on old job

number one, you know, never in my life.

did I think I would get to a
spot where I was like, I'm ahead.

But that happened in 2009 where I
paid off the last of my school loans.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: I paid off my house.

and it

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: like.

I haven't had a penny of debt since 2013

Brad Frost: Beautiful.

Aaron: Things come and go.

You built

Brad Frost: Sure.

Aaron: back here.

And I paid five installments of cash
to my buddy Robbie who built it,

quarter of a million bucks, 50, 50,
50, whatever, five installments.

But at the end, my accountant yelled at
me and said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, you're getting a loan because
the Draplin Design company's gonna rent

this from Aaron Draplin or the other
way around I don't know how they do it.

But it's legal

Beagle.

You're a S corp and you're rent.

So this thing is weird Write off, but it
Steves me out cause I had it paid off,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: But, that money
came back into my account.

And then every year she shows
me the benefit of having that.

Okay, that's what adults do.

So, for me to simplify my life and
have this c change, what that meant

for me was that's when I started
to be able to dream 9, 10, 11, 12,

because I got away from this, how the
hell am I gonna pay for everything?

Well, now I figured out how to pay for it.

How do I just go and take more of that?

But when is it too much?

See, that's

what we're running into.

And it's a weird thing.

So it's kinda like you're guilty
that you're not taking every job.

Podcast, interview,
Zim, zam this up, down.

Right?

You know, you feel guilty because how
dare someone who comes from what I

come from, say no to any of this shit.

I just did that for 20 years.

See, you've had your 20

years, 'cause you started younger.

I started at 19, but it was to
go snowboarding for five years.

And then five years of education,
couple years of cutting my teeth

and then, then I started at 30.

So see, here's the thing, I've
met a couple people along the

way who are 62, say things to me
like, I just listened to your talk.

I'm gonna tell you, you touched
on a couple things where you

said, why do I have to wait
around to start enjoying my life?

Well, I've been enjoying my life.

See, first of all, it's not like
you're at a factory where you

hate yourself sometimes maybe
affect your job is awesome.

You got to make your life being well,
creating successful well, you did it for,

you're gonna do it for yourself now, but
you did it for other people and clients

and companies and things and stuff.

It's, I got to be a cake decorator.

It's really hard

to blur those lines.

How dare I worry about burnout when
I get to be a fucking cake decorator?

Or you get to be a Brad Frost
and come up, work with, look

at that little dog in the back.

What's the name of the dog?

Okay.

Yep.

Boots.

You Look at little boots.

Don't even open your eyes, dog.

Take it easy.

I love dogs that stay

on their side.

I love dogs.

certain geometry, don't get up boots.

Um, but, uh, it freaks me out because
it's like in the last year and a half,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: I've been getting off the
streaming train of oh, I need to watch

this program my heart just gets broken.

'cause if shit sucks.

So that means following Game of Thrones.

following these sorts of things.

So I've just backed off from that shit,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: like to watch ET, and I like
to watch uh, Raiders of the Lost Ark.

If I'm, you know, feeling that need
for that kind of, to scratch that itch.

YouTube, I went and got the premium thing.

It has been an amazing little therapist
for me because I'll just type in

until I'm 59 and a half to
get what I've, I've amassed a

motherfucker of a S-E-P-I-R-A,

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aaron: Every now and again
you'll see the shadow.

It's looming right behind me.

You'll just see it just, you know,
wash over me this big shadow of Okay,

well, I gotta get to 59 to have that.

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aaron: There's other

shit that I can just use right now.

So you have to understand me feeling
a little bummed the last month.

It's like, how do I get this?

How do I pull off what I
pull off all those years?

I did a budget for myself.

I know what my monthly
number is just to exist,

Brad Frost: There it.

Aaron: and I've got that sitting in one
account, one of these little aspects,

for the next seven and a half years or
eight and a half years until I'm 59.

I don't have to

work.

And then when 59 hits,
I get a big old shadow.

Now that is some sobering shit
because it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Now on the moral level, I
gotta take care of my mom.

I gotta do the right thing and I'll go
on this YouTube and I'll do these gentle

philosophical meanderings and I'll
listen while I'm looking at some old

magazine or something I'm kind of just
listening to it like a, maybe a podcast,

but I'm using it like
some little therapist

I don't know.

it's a privilege to even stop
yourself and think this way,

and then I feel guilty for that.

Because what I know is you get
those jobs, you be a good citizen.

You deliver, and then you make
sure that you provide good work and

you get a paycheck, well, what if

I slowed all that stuff down?

This is where I'm at.

And then you have to take stock.

Well, I like playing with my Legos.

I like playing my guitar.

I like playing with myself.

I like, I mean, whatever.

You start going through all
the things, it's like, well,

what brings me direct joy?

I'm so clouded.

I like making logos
and you can make money.

How dare I say no.

So check it out, Mr. Brad frost.

I haven't taken any new jobs in
2025 'cause I've just been like,

okay, I'm gonna clean this shop.

I'm gonna pare down some things
that need to be paired down.

I could use a haircut.

That's a problem.

one of those court ordered haircuts
where they take you and they go,

just get the hair out of his eyes.

You know, what happens is I don't
keep my pace, then I get poopy.

Brad Frost: Sure.

Aaron: scaring me.

So I ask you, getting

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aaron: go embark on this new thing.

Brad Frost: yeah,

Aaron: have to gimme social
security numbers and bank

accounts and shit, but you do

Brad Frost: yeah,

Aaron: right?

Brad Frost: yeah,

Aaron: Hey, good.

Because I had guys pull me aside and
say the first five grand you have in

the bank, bank I didn't even have that
in 2004 five grand, first five you have

in the bank if you can get to there You
have enough to go see your parents when

you wanna go see 'em in Michigan and not
not feel that at the time it Was about

a 500 ticket when you get 10 grand in
the bank You can go take a vacation.

What happens when you get 50 in the bank?

What happens when you
get 500,000 in the bank?

Now I'm not being braggy, but what I'm
saying is I could be anywhere around that.

What if I'm way over that?

I only know how to operate
in the $5,000 realm.

Still, I don't,

the shirt is like, it's
on every fucking podcast.

because it's a Cabela's Shammy shirt.

I don't care.

What's in style.

Brad Frost: yeah.

Aaron: haven't worn out yet.

Lee makes fun of me.

Aaron got a new pair of sweatpants
this last decade, and that's me.

I could go out and buy his what, whatever.

But that's not what Fugazi taught me.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: these things with

Ian Machai, he's wearing the same
little shitty beanie he was wearing

in this interview on that thing.

There's a beauty.

There's a a humanity.

There's a um, a honesty to some of that.

Okay.

But I ask you, cause I had guys
pull me aside and I really took that

to heart because when they pulled
me aside, I didn't even have five.

I was still just getting up to
speed and paying things off.

Somewhere in here I have some shitty
eight bit looking screen grab of when I

paid off one of my credit cards in 2002,
I had been carrying that credit card

with 96 with a balance of seven or $8,000.

'cause that's just the system.

That's the numbers.

And

they know they can get
you in a pickle and.

I wasn't fucking up, I
wasn't drinking too much.

I wasn't gambling too much.

I wasn't getting in trouble.

No, I was paying my monthly shit.

There's no hand guide
for any of this stuff.

And I also don't want to
become some creepy fucking

Gary V Guru bullshit, you know?

Oh, these fucking charlatans, man.

They got him in design,
they got him in coding.

They got him in.

They better not have them in
records and Legos and shit.

because I, it'll just ruin me.

But you know,

can't listen to this Tony Robin schlock of
how to get yourself outta the hole or into

the hole, or know, you know, it's like,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: stop's the next.

Brad Frost: What we're talking about
here is one, a scarcity mindset, right?

That grow, that come that Eades from
growing up in Michigan and in my case, my

hometown is called Oil City, Pennsylvania,
and it is where oil was discovered.

It's where the oil industry began.

Too much oil in Oil City these days.

And basically heading back home is, is
every year it gets Bleecker and Bleecker.

And it is, it's rough.

growing up in that environment shapes
you just as you're describing here, I

like how you said it, even whenever you
have more in the bank, you're operating

under this scarcity mindset, right?

What's wild is I have other
versions of that my, like my

mother-in-law's from the Philippines.

So like, you really wanna talk
about grow up with a dirt floor

and, and that shapes you and how you
see the world and how you operate.

And it sounds like the tension is for
you if I'm hearing you right, is it's

like that mentality is that you've
actually used that very skillfully

to become financially successful.

But you're like, okay, I'm here.

I get off the fucking train.

You picked at the answer already.

Whenever you go, oh, you crunch
the numbers and those numbers

provide the clarity even though
you still can't fully trust them.

And I'm in a similar situation where
I think I've in pretty good shape,

but you can never be too sure.

Right?

Even when you have the accountants
go, no, you're good actually.

You're like, I don't believe it.

I don't trust you because I've seen

when you don't.

Aaron: If You're a fly on the wall with
my accountant and hearing me say things

that are like, I wanna say, I don't
wanna say immature but almost naive

where I kind of go, am I okay?

one time my accountant told me, Aaron,
I have a guy that has 46 million.

And he's a wreck.

you don't have that, but you can do with
what you've got, something wonderful.

Learn from him.

He's mean on the phone.

He's mean to people around him.

He hasn't had to work for a time.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: Where do I go Plug
into some little field.

Am I gonna be okay?

There's no, you're gonna
have to pay for a therapist.

You're gonna have to pay
for some creepy life coach.

You're gonna have to pay
for some little thing.

No, no, no.

Where can I just put a Google in?

This is what's in the bank.

Am I gonna be okay?

Because no one will tell you that.

because then I kind of go, okay, well,
maybe I don't know what I'm doing.

I need to step back buckle the fuck
back down and say yes, yes, yes.

And next thing you know, I'm on the road.

Way too many times.

It's fun.

There's

an improbable nature to that shit.

But who, who's the sweet guy that
I, I, I, you are synonymous with

him, Dan, with the curly black hair.

Dan Mall.

I don't know what Dan Mall does, but
I know when I looked him up, he's a

smart guy and it was, he, he would

mess with me.

And one time we were at one of these
interactive things where it was a UI

crowd, Dan Mall was sitting right in the
front row and he was kind of giving me

these, like, Hey, draft, you know, he
knows me enough to mess with me, you know?

And I kind of go, oh, well
there's Dan Mall, you know, got

outta work release today, Dan
Mall, nice to see you, Dan Mall.

And I went, I go, let me warm
up the crow while we're waiting

for everyone to roll in.

And I go, what's the, I grabbed the
mic and I go, let's do a sound check.

What's the old adage?

you can't do graphic
design, there's always UX.

Click.

And everyone damn was like, how dare he
talk like that in the age of whatever.

And I was like, just having a
little bit of fun with the crowd.

But you know, when I think of
like a Dan Mall, like guy's

got and, he was loose about it.

There's a lesson there when I
would kind of trade notes with him.

I don't even know the guy that much.

I just, I thought he was cool.

I liked him he didn't carry himself
too seriously until you went and

looked at what some of the stuff he did
and was like, oh, he knows his shit.

He knows his shit.

That's, that's really interesting to me.

you know, what I, what I don't
wanna do is turn this into some,

like, I got the answer to it all.

It's like, it'd be really more like
if I had to go, like, try to I make

a podcast that just says anything
but design with Aaron Draplin.

Who's afraid of going to the doctor?

I am.

You

ought to see me in there.

I go in there and I go, okay,
I, all the tears all dried up.

I'm ready for inspection.

Any folder flap you could dig around it.

You want me to drop the drawers
and get into no man's land?

Get in there.

I don't know.

submit to you.

I surrender.

And a guy's like, we're just
checking your blood sugar.

Just sit down.

Aaron, we got

the blood work back.

Your leg has been dead since March.

Oh, shit.

there was no podcast that was like,
here's what happens when you, you don't

feel sick all of your thirties and
forties you don't go in Like a jerk.

But I was afraid.

now what I'm proud to report is
I've been in there three years.

We're getting things right.

The plumbing's better,
blood sugar's better.

I, I have, I have type two diabetes
as they call it in the industry,

and so does a third of everybody
else, but I didn't even know.

But we got it.

We got it cool.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: control and we're working on it
and whatever, you know, but at least

I'm in the realm, I'm in the room.

So finance wise, you
get people to help you.

You get people to do things.

getting your head on right

So, All we're discussing with my
friends is like, what's our next route?

Because you better plan it.

You have

the

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: to plan it.

thankful for that.

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aaron: around you, but you're gonna
have to work out some shit for yourself.

Brad Frost: Yes.

Aaron: And, I, I don't know where to go
to, as I've said, as I've said 17 times.

but finding a weird solace and just
trading notes with buddies to say,

Okay, well, I mean, you, do you have
the, an do you have some answers?

We don't, we're kind of

collectively trading notes.

And it's just a really interesting thing.

That's why when I asked you
you have some savings, right?

Because you have to understand
I do these workshops and shit.

And I get a Brad frost.

Who's got a bunch of talent,
and a bunch of stuff.

And he is like, I have
two grand in the bank.

And it's like, you are not allowed
to quit your job until you have

10, 15, 20., Are you doing?

There is no glory and compromised.

a good job.

Guess what happens when
you leave your job?

You have to pay for your insurance.

I pay 700 bucks a month.

You have to go to a job at
nine o'clock and deal with some

shitty guy by the water cooler.

Shut up.

Don't leave your job.

You're

not ready.

So, you know, I get those guys who come up
to me 'cause they heard me wrestling with

my own shit and I, I go down the line.

got some savings, right?

I do.

How's your house Look, you have
a place to be, you know, running.

Okay.

Because those are all factors.

When I went on my own in 2004, I
had about 50 in the bank, 50,000.

I saved a bunch up.

I knew at the worst case scenario, I
had my rent covered for about two years.

So if I had to go back and
get a Joby job job, I could.

I had I had things covered
'cause I did the budgets.

I remember

one time a headhunter called me
from the graphic design and branding

industry and she called me and she
said, Aaron ler, this was 2006 or seven.

Now I'm gonna drop some numbers and you.

guys better watch your toes because
I'm gonna get braggy for a second.

Anyway, this woman calls me up and
she goes, we see what you're doing.

We like your style.

You have some talent.

You know, we can plug you in, Aaron.

This is the upper echelons of branding.

It's an agency.

You're gonna be on planes to go land jobs.

You're gonna work on these
jobs on the way back.

You're gonna get back to the agency.

You're gonna pitch things.

On Fridays, they have casual,
they have casual Friday.

I, I said, I

go, I, I said, I haven't worn
pants all year long, she goes,

I go, okay, tell me more.

She tells me all about the job.

She runs me

through the shit, you know, you have to
have a degree, you have to have this many

years of experience and you have to be
this tall and your face has to be this.

And all sudden she goes, and by
the way, let's talk compensation.

And I go, oh, here we go, because
you just built this thing up.

I remember her saying, she goes
they've got 87,500 for you.

What do you think about that?

Like, boom, drop the mic, you know, and
I kind of go, ma'am, on my own, as a

pile of fuck in my backyard, whatever
technical terms I used, this was in

2006, I broke 200,000 last year, I

worked with my friends.

didn't have to get on a plane
to go pretend some shit.

I didn't even wear pants.

And she just apologized and
she went, you are very lucky.

I had a job before.

You can go look it all up somewhere.

And they, I was getting paid
65 grand a year in 2004.

When I said, I'm gonna go on my own,
I'll give you a month and I'll as

gentle as possible, jump out of this.

They offered me 115 or
a hundred, that day.

And I was like, well, what
about, the last two years?

Where's that come from?

Because they're only gonna pay you what
they have to When I got on my own, that

changed, but I had to do it strategically.

So see, that was a sea change for me
then, but the other way now is just scary.

What if the joy is found in volunteering
to help people around Portland.

What if the joy is found in,

a little old man who
can't do his, uh, lawn.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Yeah,

Aaron: I'll do it.

I don't know.

Brad Frost: yeah.

Aaron: the lawn, you know,
I'll I'll go do the lawn, you

Brad Frost: But that's the thing the joy
must persist because it, it is you, right?

Like through and through, then
how do you super impose yourself

on whatever situation it is.

Go in and helping whatever,
frame a new house or, or Yeah.

Aaron: I mean, you've always had an
incredible presence to what you do,

positive and interesting take and space
helmets and all the other riff and wrap.

by the way, you gotta update that space
thing 'cause that you were like 13 there.

Brad Frost: I got, I got a disco ball one.

Now

Aaron: change the, change
the budget a little bit.

You know, and Bootsy has
to take a bit of a hit.

There we go.

go.

Wow.

Because the idea

Brad Frost: you could buy, you could
buy a roll of mirror ball tape.

Aaron: wow.

Yeah.

Brad Frost: For seven bucks.

Seven bucks.

You get a lot of it!

Aaron: Okay.

Now wait, wait, I'm going off course.

You started this thing for yourself.

Are you already getting calls?

Brad Frost: So I'm going out on my own.

But, but also not so, I've been my
own thing since 2013 and I've been

working , just as you described,
working with your friends, right?

To make cool shit happen.

I've done my own version of that, but
for the longest time, in my world, it's

maybe more of a team sport then, you
know, you could just kind of bang out some

logos on your own and stuff like that.

Aaron: You're totally right.

One thing I've always loved about
the coding world, we'll just say,

when someone has a problem, they post
something and everyone would help them.

Brad Frost: dude,

Aaron: a certain,

Brad Frost: it's, it's magic.

It's magic.

Aaron: it sounds kind of shitty for,
you know, to graphic designers, but

people like to kind of keep their stuff

Brad Frost: Totally.

Aaron: I never subscribed to.

Brad Frost: No, no, no.

So I've been doing my own thing since
2013, but after a while we got tired of

we're like a big Fortune 500 company.

Like, can, can you.

Spread singular help us.

and I'm like, well, no, I, got me and
all my friends . So it, it ended up

making just good pragmatic sense to
be like, well, let's just present as

a company and then that will save us a
lot of having to describe, these are my

friends and like, we're here to help you.

And don't worry, we've been
working together for a decade.

So we did that.

And what's interesting is once
that dynamic got set up, like,

you'll appreciate this because man,
if you want to talk about strong

personal brands, you're probably it.

I have my own flavor of personal
brand or whatever, and then all of

a sudden it's like, oh, now I'm,
I'm operating under this other roof.

Those aren't my brand colors.

But also like a business
is shaped like this, right?

The equivalent for you
would be that agency, right?

You're gonna do this brand
design, you're gonna do this

collateral, you're gonna do this.

Lego sets aren't part of it.

Cleaning up.

The thing isn't, they are
volunteering isn't part of it, right?

But whenever you're your own being, you
have full control, you have full agency.

You very motivated by a number of factors.

But we know that we need to keep
the lights on, but we also know that

track is only one track of life.

And that in order to live a good
and fulfilled life, you have to

have a diversity of experience.

Maybe you turn the knobs, you turn
things up and down, you turn up

the mids, you turn, turn down the
base like occasionally or whatever,

based on what season you're in.

But just like you said, that 59 and a half
or like all those people that are going

through life and waiting for things to,
to get good and to live life and to lean

into things and to have hobbies and to be
listen to good music and do fun things.

People are like, I'll, I
will do that afterwards.

I mean, dude, my father-in-law,
he worked and had that a attitude

and then it is just sure as shit.

Like any movie script, and
there you go, and then you die.

Right?

And that's what happened.

Aaron: How old

Brad Frost: He was in his sixties.

But but it's, it's the lesson, right?

It is the lesson.

And it, and it, it, it is a cliche.

It's just unfortunately a cliche
that I got the front row seat for.

right?

So my wife, she is pursuing an arts
therapy degree, which is awesome.

There's a million different ways you
can apply arts therapy in the world.

And she got an internship at a hospice.

Literally last week, she's holding
someone's hand doing a plaster cast

of their hand as part of this thing.

It's for the family, it's like healing
for them . this person literally died

as she was doing this like plaster cast.

And it's like when you're confronted with.

When, when we're all confronted with that
massive life event that will befall us

all, it puts things into perspective.

Aaron: my God.

I mean, what what are the
conversations like when the,

when the little lady comes home.

Years ago My dad, when he was still
around, you know, um, one of his

buddies back in Traverse City,
Michigan, was this guy was a deacon.

Now he wore the thing with the
Catholic and that's a little

intense, you know, but whatever.

But that's fine, you know.

Um, but he was a deacon what he
would do there's no money for this.

He gave me his business card
because I was in the hospital

I had my appendix out in 2011.

And, you know, um, dad, his
guy's name was Rene, Reem came

by and he was gonna pray for me.

I remember going, Hey, say a little
something to the big guy upstairs

and maybe it's the big girl upstairs.

And just a general, uh, positivity
because why are we the only Catholics

and we're the only ones who are right?

What about the Buddhists on
the other side of the world?

What the fuck

ants die and go to heaven too?

Are there lots of ants in heaven?

'cause there's a lot more
ants on the, the fuck.

praying for me, for me.

But what's really interesting is
when people would die, Rene would

go in there and sometimes people
are, isolated from their families

and he's the last person that
they know from this relationship

of like, are you okay?

Let me check on you.

Do you need anything?

Let me pray for you.

me talk to the people and
get them back in here.

And sometimes they're just at the end
the guy praying for them as they go over.

And it was just like this wash of like,
whatever fucking flavor you subscribe to

of hereafter or whatever, that's real.

And that was his job.

And he had these business cards
that you cut out from a template

and they're all crooked and shit.

So I went and made him this.

you know, really somber
with his digits and his

stuff and basic email and this big,
long geo cities email, some kind of,

you know, space, web crawler dot
geo, whatever the fuck, some long,

you know, old personal email.

made him a better business card
because man, you gotta get that right.

You're sometimes in the scariest
moments of someone's life.

Now listen, I don't necessarily wanna
become a deacon, but there was a

paycheck there, abstract paycheck that.

That's why, you know, like my dad, you
have to be of service on some level.

Whether or not it's teaching kids
about Adobe Illustrator or how to

wrangle going on their own or whatever

everything's

about a paycheck, Aaron, I watched
that exhibited in front of me as a kid.

And now when it's my turn
now to go make some changes.

'cause here's the thing, if
I got my budget figured out,

why wouldn't I, wouldn't I go and,
and put stock and just watching the

sun come up, or the sun go down?

Why wouldn't I, because I'm caught
this weird pressure system of

like, you gotta keep earning.

know what no one ever tells you
is when you make a lot of money,

have to pay a lot of taxes.

Every buck you make at some certain
points, you're paying 49 cents back.

That hurts.

Because I'm not, some multi
corporation back here.

It's no different, I'm
certainly not one of them.

But what happens when you get a
22-year-old kid who's making 6

million bucks a year, has to give
back 3 million that first year?

That's real with these
some sports stars and shit.

That's just real.

and rollers, you know, I have no
buddies who have been with Jack

White and stuff and things and stuff
and it's like you make a bunch of

money, you gotta pay a bunch of tax.

What if I slow that all down and the
paychecks aren't necessarily steeped in

what I was able to pull off or a good job.

The paychecks are just smaller wins.

You know, somebody needed some help.

I mean, how do you even tap into that?

Oh, I've, I've been on podcasts.

I get these emails, people saying,
Oh, come work for a nonprofit.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

It's just, I'll be back
in the same slog with no

paycheck.

No,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Aaron: You

Brad Frost: Right.

Aaron: where do you go?

Just to say, utilize me

Brad Frost: And that's such
a beautiful place to be.

'cause it is freedom and
you are not short on ideas.

I think that, like the thing with both
of us is we've always been like, we've

had these external things, whether it's
big Fortune 500 company needing help with

their design systems and their websites
and stuff, or whether it's people reaching

out to you about like branding and stuff.

We're always dependent on this other thing
to, to at least help us frame how we gotta

spend at least some of our time on earth.

When you don't have that, there's I
think a real opportunity to be able to

define . You have freedom and you have
nothing but good ideas and great energy

and what can you just point that at?

Aaron: Well,

Brad Frost: I think we've historically
maybe needed other people to help us.

Say like, here, here's
what you ought to be doing.

But it's like that, that just
kind of comes from, from you.

'Cause it's coming from you and
it's in line with your core values.

There's no conversation
that needs to happen.

It's just your head and then
your, your hands acting on it.

Aaron: This isn't anything new.

I have to go and look back
to when I was a youngster.

I'd go up to Alaska and work
up on these summer jobs.

And I would go be a
dishwasher for the summer.

And you're up there with
all these beautiful people.

And there were two schools of thought.

Mine was to buckle down because my
first summer of 96, I went up there.

worked five months on this
train as a dishwasher.

I did extra runs.

Did that because over the course
of a week you'd have two runs.

But I would do, we'd have eight
days, call it, eight day cycle.

You do two up and down on the
train up to Fairbanks, from

Anchorage to Fairbanks and back.

Take a day off, do two more days,
and you'd have three days off.

So if you take that eight day chunk,
up and down, two, one day off, up

and down two, now we're at FE day.

Five, three days off, that's eight days.

The three days that were off people
would the money they made in the

five days, they would go spend it.

That was the first school it was like.

Wait a second.

You're not gonna take any time.

You're not gonna take
that back to the states.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: no, we're gonna enjoy our lives.

We're gonna camp and fight and screw
and shoot guns and catch salmon

and all the other wonderful things
they were doing that cost money.

gonna have a great summer and I'm
gonna work just as little as I

have to, to have this great summer.

That was one school of thought.

Mine was like, I'm gonna hoard it all.

'cause on those three days that
you'd add off, I'd put another

two day run somewhere in there.

So I'd get six of eight days.

So, okay, so I did that.

That's what allowed me
to get my first computer.

Here's the deal, and this is indicative
of some kind of something that's,

I don't know where this comes from.

This is my question.

why was it, I would hate
Every second on that train.

were cutting your hands.

I was a dishwasher.

You know, I use my hands to use
a mouse and shit on a keyboard.

So when I come back home, I have
to get this computer and now I

have, I'm armed with this new tool.

But when we would get back each
fall, it would take me three

or four days and I would sink.

I don't know if it's a depression, but
I would have this weird emptiness of

like, I gotta get back on the horse.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: And that comes from having
a job when you're 13 years old,

because my dad having to say to me,
Aaron, we can't buy you skateboard

decks every time you want one.

They were, you know, 80 or 70.

were into these records
and CDs and things.

Aaron you go work and you can
afford those things for you.

By the way, you, if you want that car,
I'll help you get the car, but you

gotta cover the insurance and the oil.

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aaron: We had this baked into us.

When you see someone having a hard
go around you, not necessarily my mom

and dad, you take notes on that shit.

So that is baked into me and
it would happen in 97, 98, 99.

Now I went back to school.

So you go from working all
summer, right back into school.

There wasn't a gap.

was productive, productive,
productive, little tiny gap just to

drive from Alaska all the way to Min
Minneapolis to go to design school.

I would get back to work.

So what I'm getting at is last month

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aaron: I've had a gap.

We had a great 2024, I made money.

donated, I helped people, I
took care of everyone around

me and I saved some extra shit.

But when I took a gap, it
started to fuck with me.

Now

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aaron: playing with Legos is fun And all,
but it's not gonna keep the lights on.

I'm studying why that
affects me the way it does.

Are you the kind of guy.

Whether or not you have the big
fortune five hundreds in a conglomerate

of, of like-minded val heads and
smart people to come and attack this

thing as a unit, or it's just You.

helping a buddy make some little thing.

If you don't have the gigs,
do you start to go crazy?

Cause you can, I hey, I'll, I'll
play the latest shit I've been

working with on the guitar and you
could play me some sweet bass riffs.

But do you get skied out?

Brad Frost: Yes.

Aaron: Because, because there's
a momentum, there's a safety

Brad Frost: Yes.

Aaron: actively trying to make
myself uncomfortable and I've got

some weird news, fucking scary kind.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that's the opportunity.

I'll say that I'm have turned a corner
a little bit more on the scary part.

And the way that I've accomplished
that is by crunching the numbers,

is by knowing what I need to do.

Just like those people doing
the three days or five days on.

Okay, I know that this chunk is
gonna get me through these next

three days off and get me on these
little adventures or whatever.

There's like a bigger version of
that, which is if you bust your

ass and you put this much away.

There's concepts of like, of the 4%
rule where it's basically once you

have enough money in the bank, you
could safely withdraw 4% of that, it's

never gonna run out you because the
way that compounding interest works.

Again, my small post-industrial
mind still doesn't trust fully,

but at the same time it it, that's
why it's helpful to have people.

And, and you described that
with a, with, with doctors and

with financial people, whatever.

It's like you, you gotta put your trust in
these professionals at least a little bit.

Healthy amount of
skepticism is also good too.

But what that does is
that takes the fear away.

'cause it's whenever we, I. Coming
from where we're coming from are

trying to tackle these things
that we have no business tackling.

Of course, it's scary, right?

But I think that the thing that is
fascinating is like by offloading

that to people and making sure that
you're crossing your i's and dotting

your T's, that's that pressure release
valve for the fear to dissipate.

And you're left with nothing but your
joy and your enthusiasm and your skills

and your fun and your everything.

So then you're a kid in a candy store
because it's like going back through

after you beat a video game and you
get to go wherever the hell you want.

You don't have to like earn it again.

You get to play it with
the cheat codes in there.

But like when you've operated a
certain way for a certain amount of

time and that's the lifeblood and
that's the thing that sustains you

and your loved ones who that is.

It's makes perfect sense that that
would be scary to have that month

long gap where you go, oh my God.

Like is this okay?

Aaron: when you go back to Oil City and
you see maybe buddies you grew up with

and stuff, Does all this shit go out
the window the moment you leave Oil City

'cause you're like, I've maybe seen a
couple case that are a little freaky.

I'm gonna go back home I'm gonna say no.

because here's, here's what I've done.

I go back to Michigan where I'm from.

By the way, little Traverse City,
Michigan's a cute little town.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: Now it's cool.

The real estate's through the roof
and it's a place people want to be.

And isn't that a just of interest?

But sometimes I'll go back there and
see a buddy struggling or someone

having a rough go or something

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Aaron: out west and i'm not gonna say
no to a fucking thing because dare I

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: I heard the story of
someone who got in some trouble

or gotten a bit of a pickle or
something bad happened How dare I?

are all positive things.

but what happens is the next thing
I know, I just, I'm overwhelmed.

I have too much.

There were any number of times last year,
and I'll show you, this is kind of fun.

I'm just gonna do a real quick little,

but you can see here on this little thing
right here, there's only about four things

on there because I don't have any jobs.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: But at, at any point in the
last, the first eight months of last

year, there were 16 and 17 things.

There were 16 and 17 folders.

In my projects folder, there were 16
and 17 piles of email to be dealt with.

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Aaron: I'm in a holding pattern,
still, they're still on the list.

Other, we knocked it, out and we
got it done in a, couple weeks.

but that 17, how the, hell do.

you get a website done or over the
finish line when you're doing that,

How do you take time to go on walks?

Brad Frost: Yes.

Aaron: getting paychecks every other day.

it's awesome.

You get to put 'em in the mail.

you smell 'em, you look at 'em and you
put 'em in the fucking bank and you,

Brad Frost: but that's it.

The trick is to take the 16, 17 clients
and it doesn't need to be a, okay,

now all of a sudden It's zero clients.

what I've found to be really
helpful is to actually treat my

own shit like it is a client.

I have to trick my brain to go, here's
this thing that I want to do desperately.

Like I've wanted to do this for so long.

And it's always been on the back burner.

It always gets pushed because
there's always the paying gig

that sort of comes through.

And the real irony is that I think a
lot of those itches, we wanna scratch,

those things that we wanna do, all
comes back around in the form of the

money, just in a weird and indirect way.

It's like the people that are

spending their days just with
a dull blade axe, just chopping

down as many trees as they can.

And it's like, I can't stop
because I get paid by the tree.

All they need to do is pull back
and realize, oh, I need to sharpen

my axe, or, oh, better yet, there's
this thing called a chainsaw.

So it's the perspective, right?

Whenever you've been grinding for so long
and you're like in the trenches and in the

weeds, the perspective is the tree view.

And you gotta see the forest view.

When we look at those things
that we know matters, right?

The sunrises and the sunsets and
the family and the connection

and the, all that stuff.

When you have those people on their
deathbeds, like making those kinds

of comments and we know it now, it's
just the matter of like grabbing it

and actually like committing to it.

We need to give the same priority to
those things that we know are important

as we do to the client project, right?

Aaron: You can tell what a fucking animal
I am, just how much I talk and how I can't

even fucking form a thought on this fine
podcast here to all the seven listeners

tune in for what I'm about to say here.

Here's the thing.

Here,

doctor.

I don't, Brad I don't know you all that
well, but comfortable to come here.

When I go into my doctor,
I'm a fucking wreck.

I'm talking way too much.

What do you mean I have
to get a colonoscopy?

All these things, these are
Aaron, basic maintenance, man.

They test my blood sugar with a
little pick and I go, but I've been

playing this one song and I do a
little finger pick sometimes and they

go, just gimme the fucking finger.

it's like, can't you do it on my toe?

Gimme your hand, and just,

ah, zap it.

And they go get the number.

And I, we say, okay,
there's is where you're at.

But I asked my doctor
this last time, I said,

how, how much do you work?

Because this was on December 18th.

Christmas is coming up.

Do you guys get time?

And he goes, I'll be
working on Christmas Eve.

Like she was very matter of fact.

And I said, oh, okay.

you are rewarded for that, right?

How much does a doctor make?

So I went home and I looked
up what doctors make.

It wasn't that crazy?

Remember when you were a kid?

Oh, you're a doctor, you make
all this much when you're a

lawyer, you make all this much?

you know?

Now we've traded notes
on some of these things.

'cause I'll just say when do you
get time off, he works a lot.

And yes, there's an interesting
vocation to that he's helping

me get a little better.

It's pretty interesting.

And I say to him, how many
years did you go to school?

Well, I went eight here and
then four here, and then two

with this something, EEMT.

And then I did, you know, 14.

I go 14 years of fucking
climbing the mountain.

this is what you get.

Aaron Draplin here, getting ready to
Take all his clothes off and let you

dig around and all the folds and flap.

I'd asked him was last time,
I'd go, you've never touched me.

Like, you know, like, uh, you know,
like in your knee, you know, you've

put anything on my heart, you
know, like, listen or something.

Or you've never checked the circumference
of my big fucking meatball head.

He's like, Aaron, we're just doing
diagnostics with some of your basic

plumbing and levels and everything's cool.

This isn't just for a bunch of whiny
graphic designers or maybe tech it's an

everything And and when you go to some
truck stop, you talk to a truck driver,

If you ever see 'em jump out
with the little round thing?

They sit on a little donut thing.

That's 'cause they have hemorrhoids.

That's a little pro tip.

If you're ever in the lot, you see
them carrying one of those things.

Are they facing the same things?

Here's the answer.

I don't know.

I'm just trying to be creative with how I,
recognize what's bunching me up a little

bit and then make some gradual changes.

So where does the energy go?

I've subdued it the last month and
I've been sleeping in and then here's

a fun one, stopping the day at six
and going inside and fucking around

with Legos or doing the recycling.

Why am I the guy in the neighborhood
that brings his recycling out

at 2:40 AM because I work late?

So i've been trying to get the fucking
recycling out on Thursday nights before

eight o'clock to be a good citizen.

That takes work.

Brad Frost: It's a reprioritization,
it is a recovering, maybe workaholism

is too strong of a word, but we're
not talking about workaholism in the

form of doing a bunch of wage work.

It's like, God damn, we get to get
paid for doing what we love and

we're really good at, we're, we're
respected for it and whatever.

And so coming back to the privilege where
of course we have to keep that going.

Whenever people reach out to me
about, like, Brad, what should I do

with my life with like that, that's
my other old Brad Frost inbox,

which is the opposite of that.

I got a bunch of people that reach out.

And

Aaron: you

Brad Frost: you get

Aaron: You write 'em back.

Brad Frost: always,

Aaron: Me too.

Brad Frost: always, yeah.

But it's, but, but the advice.

Aaron: my capacity.

Because I'd See, that's why I
asked you at the start of this.

Do people ever push back and you
because you might have shown a vague

snippet of what some turkey was asking?

No one's ever pushed back and
They're probably embarrassed.

But, I'll get these guys who, when they
get my attention, they won't let go

and they'll everything until I have to
say, Hey man, I gotta get back to work.

I mean, I get it.

They're fans.

They're interested.

I I mean, I would probably do the same.

I had Jay Maskus over here in October.

He spent the night.

He found one of the dead notes
on one of my jazz masters.

But I can't write him 47 times.

After he left, I go see the next show.

I'll go backstage.

I'll get a high five.

And if we go have a lunch or
whatever, I'm on cloud fucking nine.

But I'm losing my capacity.

There's a certain humanity that you
already answered and you said, you know,

Aaron, I write 'em all back, man, if I
had 70 cents for every time some fucking

big ass designer or whatever said I
don't do that, I'd have about 516 bucks.

Because people love to say, how dare.

I feel like it's like a price tag.

we were lucky to get ahead
and it comes with some stuff.

Now people are gonna ask you for your
advice, be a human and share that.

I'm losing the capacity, but there
were a lot of times there, man I

didn't miss any school interview.

These kids were the same six questions.

Oh my God.

But the kid who's like, I'm in trouble.

Okay.

Here's seven things do what you will with
them stay away from these fucking podcasts

that want your money They're gonna solve
all your shit be careful with these guru

assholes Watch out for the guys that are
pointing the guys who these designer guys.

They're pointing at things and they're
going Hmm, How do I do this change?

You know, you've seen
that mode It's effective.

Go look at their portfolio.

You wanna see how good
their tips and tricks are.

Go look at their portfolio.

If the portfolio shit, guess what
happens in your portfolio shit?

You gotta go point at things.

Sometimes that freaks me out.

So I'll tell these kids like,
man, it sucks but hard work.

It's just the way to go.

You can't get a design job.

Did you get a pizza job?

Would you get a pizza job?

Sucks.

Well, What happens when you
get back from your pizza job?

You're gonna spend five hours a
night like I did pedaling my bike

to go use a computer at Kinko's.

I did that.

Everyone else went out drinking,
fighting, screwing, and chasing

chicks, chasing dudes, whatever it was.

I went and you gotta
find that in yourself.

Now, kids don't wanna hear that, right?

So I just find it interesting that
you'll make that time 'cause it

says a lot about you, you know,

it's hard.

Brad Frost: I think that's the education.

People just by way of get reaching
out to you, they're reaching

to an external source to try
to get an answer to something.

And all you can do is kind of
hold up the mirror to them.

And that's the gift.

That's the advice.

Right.

And it's,

Aaron: met one of those guys years
later who were like, dude, you

were the only one who wrote back.

Brad Frost: that's beautiful.

Aaron: I put it, you know, like
one of the things you hear in the

last bunch of years is I went and
applied to 171 places, places.

You're the only one who wrote
me back and said, Hey man, I'm

a one man band with my girl.

two us.

Were little duo.

We're white, white stripes, orange
stripe, spot, orange skin tags.

Uh, You see where I'm going with this.

But Wow, are you that busy?

You can't just say, hey, we're not hiring.

There's a weird abstract thing
because I get berated for that in

these podcasts or not, uh, q, and
A at some event or a workshop.

Like, would you waste your time with that?

And I would just stop 'em and say, if
all I do is design, I'm gonna go nuts.

I've been ending my talk with this.

I go, life is an arc.
over here you're born.

Where's the Himalayan Mount Everest?

Because over here you die.

And when you die, that's the end.

And over here is when you're born.

So where's the high point?

Because at the high point
you don't recognize it.

You might always be chasing it.

So what if I just make sure
that I'm on the old downward

creatively and just embrace that?

And be okay with it and accept it not
play some game of chasing and let the

Brad Frost who were gonna replace the
Aaron Draplin or the Aaron Draplin who

might have replaced, who did I replace?

There were a couple I'm I'm sure.

I promised myself a long time
ago, I would graciously say, thank

you for having me and then not
be removed, but remove myself.

Just say, Yeah.

Yeah.

It's

okay.

I got, I'm out, I'm out.

See you guys.

Thanks.

It's been great.

Go get the book.

It's all in there.

'cause now I got these guys, 'cause we
sold so many of those fucking books.

When for eight years I've been
asked, when are you doing it again?

I have to say, that.

who does the book every two years,
you know, Zeldman or some shit

probably, you know, but I got,
I have to live for 10 more

years and make a bunch of shit

and then talk about what happened.

I don't think, I don't even know if I'm
interested in doing another one, you know?

Brad Frost: But that's just it.

It shouldn't be, market forces are
just you getting asked enough about it.

It should be like does it turn you on?

Aaron: if I did it.

just be like, here's ways to get ahead.

Here's things not to do.

Here's things, you know, your
health insurance, you, gotta

have that shit tuned up.

I need to make a little
change in my health insurance.

you?

should have heard this person on
the phone who told me you didn't

get the change in by the 15th.

There's nothing we can do for
you Whatcha gonna do about that?

And I was like, why are
you so tough with me?

I didn't even know when I picked this
shit five years ago or for whatever I

was getting ready to get the courage
to go up into the dock and all this

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aaron: know there was a rule for that now.

I know but why are you mean to me?

What

Brad Frost: yeah,

Aaron: do you have?

The guy

Brad Frost: yeah.

Aaron: know, I said, isn't
this all being recorded too?

God dick.

Guess what I do for Liv, for a living
I've been sleeping in for the last

month Take that, then I got off
the phone with this But, you know,

Brad Frost: But maybe that's your own
client project is, it's, is it's like

there's all of the other things that
have been back burnering for you.

Is that a word?

Back?

Burnering, for, for a long time.

But they're the real things.

They're the nooks and crannies of
life that don't get a lot of light.

It's the unsexy stuff that, the
confronting fear, navigating the

healthcare system in the insurance system.

That is the stuff of life.

And I feel like in America especially,
it is the, what, do you do for money?

It just, just sucks the air out of the
room and I find that there's just so

many more interesting conversations to
have, things to pick into, beautiful

things, to explore music, to make music,
to listen to art, to, to just enjoy.

The depth of life is so
incredibly vast and deep.

There's this narrowing there's
this like well worn track that is

just this known thing called like
work and like how you earn money.

And the shape of design is the industry is
this like just calcified known quantity.

And it just feels, just so whenever
you hear it for the millionth

time, you have no choice but to
just be disillusioned with it.

Meanwhile, there's all of these
other bands, there's all these

other tracks, there's all these
other things, aspects of life that

are hard, interesting, beautiful,
worth talking about, worth writing

about, worth sharing worth, whatever.

Aaron: See what about at
different ages, though?

See, 40, 51, you know, it's like, I too
old to go and just change up some stuff?

So here's the thing.

It's like, instead of saying, I'm gonna
go, I'm gonna go be an exotic dancer.

Now, you know, could be hard
living off 11, 11 bucks a month.

No tips.

You know, it's like, it's like, uh,

a person that really had.

A momentum in, in illustration
and design and then just turned

it all off a couple years later.

I got a call because he was
still doing client work, but just

wasn't showing it to the world.

And he's like, I have no
compulsion To have to share this.

I don't owe anyone anything.

It was a really hard and weird chat where
it was like, that's what everyone does.

You show it, you get people
excited, you talk about it, you get

comments, you go back and forth.

He was like, but why?

And I gotta tell you, he
was way ahead of the curve.

He saw it for what it was And interested
in that weird carrot on a stick.

Now this is about eight or nine years ago.

So I've just tapped in a little bit.

Every now and again I'll come
on with some cryptic posts.

And people will say things in
the things like, Are you okay?

Am I doing damage to my brand by not
sharing every goddamn meal and every

little logo I was playing with, whether or
not I learned something, I was delighted.

I haven't shown client work in
years, unless it's Chris Stapleton.

'cause it's fun, it's big
and it's all over the world.

I just was too busy being interested
in making logos or making a record

for John Davis and his, you know,
jinx record, which you go listen

to if you're a super drag fan.

What if I was just to turn everything off?

I'm not trying to be some big alarming
thing, but I just turned it off It's okay,

I went and did other things . What
no one ever talks about when

you have a new initiative

a new beanie, you gotta make
Instagrams, you gotta put it on a

reel, you gotta put it on a story.

That was my experiment the last
two weeks, three weeks was like,

I'm just gonna do other things
and I'm getting these messages.

Like you all right, where are you?

you start to become like an entertainment

Brad Frost: But, that's the
dynamic that you're picking up on.

It comes naturally to, obviously,
but there's a threshold that gets

crossed where it's like, Oh, yeah,
this feels more like, like work.

Or this is extrinsically motivated
versus I made some cool shit and I wanna

hold it up and share it with people.

I've been having fun for like the
last, like year or two finally

starting to publish some music
that is, it's not even done.

It's just like, here's this
little lick, or here's this thing.

I feel compelled to just
go, here's something.

And, and there's no, like,
I hope people even like it.

I feel just this innate, you
know, I, I, I made this right.

And then, but then there's the
sharing and the tap dancing because

you have to, and it's the right
thing, and I should do this.

And, and that's different, right?

And so what's interesting is that
when we get closer to being able

to have our realities and our
day to day life more aligned with

our intrinsic motivators versus.

That's happening elsewhere, right?

What do other people
think I should be doing?

Am I doing enough?

Am I not doing enough?

Am I showing up and dare I say, and
I'll, I'll tread lightly here, but even

when it comes to taking care of your
loved ones and the people in your life

that can cross a threshold where the
guilt or obligation crosses the line

and going from like care to, all of a
sudden you're not taking care of yourself

because you're like falling on the sword.

what I am super pumped about right
now I'm just able to go, cool,

here's new existing in the world.

Uh, what do I want to do?

Obviously some of that needs
to involve earnings A bucks,

and I'll figure that part out.

This is my hypothesis, I'll let
you know where I land with it.

Just by way of operating and doing what
you're meant to be doing in the world,

what's intrinsically interesting to
you will all somehow feed back into

the part that keeps the lights on.

That's my hypothesis at least.

I've got so many cool projects,
like these things that are just like

weird, totally like left field things.

And some of them I've
been working on for years.

I'm gonna be like launching them
over the course of this year.

I'm actually doing some courses.

So now I have a product to sell.

Now I got my own drop in shop that
I could like drive people back to.

If you were to just be like, I'm just
gonna post these Lego sets because I

think it's fun and whatever, I bet you
any money that's gonna sell you some

field notes, it doesn't have to be
explicitly like, please buy my shit.

I think that this is what.

Might de attract people to you.

People I think are starved of,
of joy and starved of happiness.

And when they're able to sort of see it
and recognize it in, in how you operate

in the world, it, it has an effect.

it.

Aaron: wait.

it.

works on me.

it works on me.

I get yelled at a couple times
a year when someone says,

why don't you have a YouTube?

Because you know what happens
when you walk in with a fucking

film crew to your coffee place?

say to you the next time you
go in there, Hey, Hollywood,

where's your fucking film crew?

Or, you're one of these guys
walking around going So here we

are in Brad Frost backyard and
we're gonna, you know, whatever.

I just turns into this fucking production.

And it's like, everything
needs to be shown.

But, humoring that and going,
well, does that model look like?

You know, we've come up with a
couple little it's like "Anything

But Design" with Aaron Draplin you
wanna know what it's like to go

to the doctor with me?

I'm gonna show you.

if you see it go quiet on my Instagram,
that could be due to politics cause

that guy's creeping me out or cause
I'm just not fucking shown it all.

Do I need to make an announcement
so people don't write me

and say, is everything okay?

And I just put a a little fun post
that says, you guys, I'm okay.

Brad Frost: say, go
listen to this podcast.

It'll tell you everything.

Aaron: Yeah, I know.

Right.

I was so proud of my skill
shares because I'd be like.

This has to be accessible to a Brad
Frost who knows what he's fucking doing.

to a Frost Brad who's just starting out.

How do we get both?

'cause I can't just go
after the beginners.

I can't just go after a bunch of experts.

So we really tried to think about that.

I'm proud of those things because
Kids show me what they made and, and

what they did and all the other stuff.

But I don't need to make 18 of them.

Brad Frost: Yes.

Aaron: I'm running out of ideas,
even though it's effective.

So like

Skillshare has kind of
tapered down for me.

It's okay.

notes are still going
crazy, you know, going on

the road.

It's just about non-existent.

The only reason I'm going to Ann Arbor
is 'cause my mom is 20 minutes from there

and I get to go spend eight days with her.

Brad Frost: Beautiful.

Aaron: If you want me to talk at
Heartland, Michigan, I'll sign the papers

right now because, you know, in Heartland,

Brad Frost: Yeah, yeah,

Aaron: Ann Arbor.

Brad Frost: yeah.

Yeah, yeah,

Aaron: know, we, I couldn't figure
out the Buffalo one, but I've

already been there three times.

Brad Frost: But that's just it.

That's just it.

You don't need to do the victory
lap and the weird fitting leather

pants, like when you're doing the
Greatest Hits tour just because

Aaron: you know, there's

Brad Frost: you know.

Aaron: ways to monetize
someone's downfall.

ways to monetize someone's
rise on the way up.

And all of it creeps me out Like
I'm, I'm, I'm doing this thing.

For these gals in Australia coming up
here and it's all gonna be about in my

life of how I'm pairing things down.

So what i've been doing?

I've been grazing sections if there's

some value to it, goes into a pile that I
can go, know, Facebook market, Craigslist,

and try to sell it, get rid of it.

If it's just purely like aesthetic value.

I've just been taking photos of stuff
and then taking photos of stuff and

get the memory and then you're done.

And then you got this and you
give it back to the world,

put it back into the universe.

And I have these things that goes on
a goddamn little tiny, little digital

smidge called my computer, and I can
still go through it and enjoy it.

And I'm gonna make a project
out of decluttering my shit, you

know?

I know how to make a production out
of every fucking element of my life.

freaks me out.

It's not a bad thing, but what if
I just don't, you know what I mean?

And next thing you

know, we get room back here.

No more stuff coming into the

shop.

If I bring this in, I have
to displace it with this much

stuff you have to understand I
have piles of shit around here.

It's hard to show the pile, but it's
a a little, it's an old vintage, uh,

ashtray, you know, from my smoking
days, just kidding, but it's filled

with little bullshits that I've gotten
on the road for a buck or two bucks or

little things I just wanna play with.

Like.

This was some bicentennial bird
logo from 1976, you know, there's

Brad Frost: Right.

Aaron: incredible thick line,
little Hawk thing that's there.

And I play with it and I keep it
here, but here, the the new rule is

like, if I haven't opened a drawer.

couple years, why even have
it taken up the fucking space,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: photos of it, glean what
you need to glean and get it

back out into the universe.

Because I'm just coming to this
point where like, my dad died, we're

still sifting through his shit.

Brad Frost: Oh,

Aaron: And there's a weird burden to that.

He used to joke.

Hey, asshole.

Someday, this'll all be yours.

Don't wish that on me.

'cause I know what it's gonna mean.

We're 10 years out.

And by the way, I always say it's on
the podcast, if anyone's listed about my

dad, we are saving so much on groceries.

Holy shit.

if you just died a couple years
before, and I could get a new tooth.

Yeah.

You

Brad Frost: that matters the
old phrase, like you can't

take it with you when you go.

Right.

Aaron: versus

Brad Frost: That's.

Aaron: data versus space.

Maybe what I just need to do is just
reset the whole fucking machine,

is like, I've got a little too
many piles rolling around here.

when you're buying things to
hold things, to hold things,

to hold things, that's weird.

don't even notice you're doing.

it,

Brad Frost: Yeah, I had to
clean out a hoarder house.

That fundamentally changed my,

Aaron: or something or

Brad Frost: fundamentally changed
my relationship with objects when

you see that tendency go to, its
logical conclusion also coupled

with this truly unhealthy attitude.

Like I wouldn't ever call you that.

You have an eye, you have a
gift at seeking things out.

There's a curational role,
there's an archivist role.

You're doing a service.

And so I like how you're like
processing it and figuring out a way,

Aaron: I've never had an intern, couple
but what if I got an intern paid said,

come in here and help me pair shit down.

this, this, this, this.

I need it knocked out
to a white background.

Go.

You you this.

This is interesting.

There's my wall of books.

There's

Brad Frost: Beautiful.

Aaron: records, but there's

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: of books.

So I wanna just point to something here.

It's hard to get what
the, what the orientation.

see that yellow book right there.

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aaron: What that book is right there.

When I went to Slovakia a couple years
ago, I went to Bratislava design thing.

There were kids from Poland coming in.

There were kids from Latvia

and uh, Serbia, down in the
Balkans and all this interesting

stuff, and and all this Ukraine.

a kid presented me that yellow book
about some Slovakian famous designer.

Well, I went through it and there's about

four pages where all his logos.

And that's where I really tune in.

But the other 285 pages is this
incredible life and type and design

and sculpture and all kinds of things.

I've looked at it once.

What I've been doing is I've been going
through and being like, well, I read that.

Am I really gonna read that again?

Now the

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: part is I'll go look
it up on eBay, it's 240 bucks.

' Cause I got some first issue . And
then I'm instantly freaked out of

like, I can't give away some weird
value of that this eight books

or 12 books I pulled outta here.

That one's a first of this.

I haven't looked at it since 2007,

There needs to be a little hand guide.

When you're feeling this bunched
up, how do you slow it all

down and, pair, it all back?

Well,

Brad Frost: Right,

Aaron: techniques.

guess a

Brad Frost: right.

Aaron: or something?

product.

Brad Frost: It's such a weird thing
because I like your arc, here is

the, your life arc and for the first
part of it, it's beaten into us.

Grow, grow, grow, earn, earn, earn.

You know, a mass, you know,
consume, like, like, get the acorns

because you know, you never know.

And, that is how society is structured
is to very much encourage that attitude.

And so the opposite of
that is really hard.

'cause you're going hard against
the grain of, I think what how

it is just been beaten into us
across every aspect of the society.

Aaron: Sorry.

are we at with this thing, by the way?

I think, should we wrap this shit up?

Because I got, I got, I
got emails coming in here.

I'm getting itchy.

Brad Frost: I, I have
one more quick thing.

Out of all of those records,
what's front of mind?

What you turned your
computer, was it McCartney?

Who are you listening to?

Aaron: You know, all
the Beatles celebration.

I'm not the craziest Beatles fan.

I have 'em all up

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Aaron: you know, I mean, I
was raised with that shit.

John Lennon is celebrated.

and, And the cultural ties and when
they broke up and it's celebrated.

and, But what hasn't been celebrated
to me too much are the wings.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: McCartney just on his own.

So when you look and, and you're like,
wait a second, that movie I watched,

it was 1969 into 19, the Apple nine
hour thing, six months later, he

was making this McCartney record.

What does it sound like?

Some of it's a little goofy, but
you start getting into some of

those mid seventies Paul
McCartney's, holy shit.

Now all I'm saying is now the,
the next problem I'll have

is I'm gonna want 'em all.

One of the big ones that happened about
two years ago was a band called Superdrag,

What I mean by that is in my indie rock
nineties, in 1995, I was seeing the

Jesus lizard and archers of loaf and povo
and shellac mule and, and all the junk.

We like smashing pumpkins.

A couple years before that, the
grungy things, a couple years before

that, a couple years after that,
Elliot Smiths and, uh, Sunbelts

Uncle Tu, Uh, after Sun Minneapolis.

I chalked up this man
super drag as kind of

pretty boys because they had
outfits, they had cool haircuts.

I heard the one song, we all know the
song The Kicked Out, you know, whatever

song we all know that was the big hit.

you kind of like, eh, they're
on the fucking radio, man.

A buddy kind of challenged me and said,
why haven't you gone deep on super drag?

I didn't have an answer like, I
knew the song, it wasn't for me.

Why don't you go listen to the
other 11 songs in that record?

mother fuck.

that was a weird lesson.

I Nada surf kind of got me

to,

Brad Frost: Amazing.

Yeah.

Aaron: I just like, ah,
they got a hit and it's just

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: you know,

there's 11 more

songs on the record.

That's the lesson.

So.

I'm wrestling with these
existential things, but I'm

also just wrestling, like, okay.

well if I, if I quit working so
much, gonna be some voids to fill.

So how am I gonna do that?

More nature?

I just gotta go out and go do it.

More time exploring other parts of
Portland while we're still here,

because, you know, another thing we
wrestle with is, should we stay here

now, by the way, where are you at?

You're in Pittsburgh, right.

Okay, I've

heard of it.

I've been there.

The yellow, I, I know, I know.

you know, Monte's still
burping that shit up.

But, is there any chance you'd
ever go back to Oil City?

Brad Frost: I don't think so.

Aaron: Okay, because we are
wrestling with years later, we might

be going back to Traverse City.

It's quiet.

by the water.

It's definitely less expensive than
Portland, and suddenly these new

premiums are starting to overwhelm.

The reality that yes, there are 16 record
stores here, but I don't even go anymore.

No.

Brad Frost: Right.

Aaron: So what am I doing?

The other night, a band called Brainiac
that I liked back in the day, and they

were coming through and they're all
55 years old and they're doing some

kind of hurrah kind of tour whatever
the fuck bunch of buddies hit me up.

I called a friend.

I got a couple guys on the list.

I couldn't go.

I did not feel good.

I was a little under
the weather, but I just.

It's not for me anymore.

I don't wanna be at that show.

Like why do I even just listen to
the fucking record here, you know?

There, you know, pants on.

By the way, this entire time you've
been recording, I am bottomless.

Just so you understand.

It's a little weird, but
you'll never know brad.

You already got up I saw your boxer
roos and everything and I get it.

I'm bottomless right now, so, know,
like, like to, to, to come face first

with that and say, unless dinosaurs
coming back in town, I'm gonna go

say hi to Jay and see the band.

I'm going,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: I, work for him.

Great.

You know, if super drag dudes,
John Davis and his buddies come

out here, I'll go see the show.

I'm going to see a band called Idaho
Next Month, because I never got to

see him in the fucking nineties.

They were so sporadic and stuff.

But past that, we went and saw Stapleton
last year, 'cause we were like guests.

You know, we went, we got

all the way into the fucking back.

I mean, I kept telling telling my buddy
in the back seat, take notes, buddy.

Here's what happens when you're
one of the graphic designers

that works for this big country.

We just were laughing our asses off.

and we saw Chris, we
hugged it out and said hi.

And then I said, tonight,
don't phone it in.

I'm a Lin's in the crowd.

She

better get a little bit of extra oomph.

And he was like, shut the fuck out.

That guy is carrying 25,000
people on average a night.

It's amazing.

And he does it and he sweats.

he looks great.

He looks cool.

And people can't get enough.

All this stuff, it's like, I'm taking
stock of all aspects of my life.

and some of it doesn't align
with the Aaron Draplin when you

met maybe even seven years ago,
when we met eight year, nine,

10 years ago, it doesn't align with
the one four years ago during the

pandemic where I was showing everything.

And even, you know, I look at my
Instagram, it's like, second, All those

tiktoks that were turned off for those
18 hours or whatever the hell that was.

Where did all that shit go?

It's just sitting on a server.

Now, I've never even thought
about my Instagram like this, but

that is a book in itself of four

posts.

Brad Frost: Life.

Yeah.

I probably have similar too.

Yeah.

Aaron: So you look at that and you're
like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

What if I recalibrate that you
come to the Draplin.com and

no one gets to fuck with it.

Like what I'm gonna go
do, this sounds insane.

gonna mine, there's 4,893, maybe
there were 400 that were just good.

I'm

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Aaron: those.

They're all backed up in
layered Photoshop files.

They're all big enough
to put into a square.

already have 'em in a square and I'm
gonna put those in in collections and

be like, all right, you can go find
this in 2017 in the middle of our

book tour, or you can just come to the
site and see these things celebrated.

Like there

Brad Frost: I love it.

Aaron: you know, like, like, like a, like
a, I have to make a post that just says.

Come to the site.

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aaron: We

Brad Frost: it.

Aaron: we work on your phone now.

Responsive.

And by the way, to all the UX people, I'm
sorry, I said mean things to you guys.

Let's end it on something positive.

Brad Frost: Coming back to the
sabbatical, because you're like,

yeah, I didn't end up doing it.

I'm gonna give you some advice.

So here's , I've done it

Aaron: Yeah.

Brad Frost: and I think I have
a strategy that might scale.

So here's the trick.

The trick is to go far enough
out into a calendar where

there's nothing but tumbleweeds.

And then you draw big fucking line
start date, end date or whatever, and

you do it, but you do it so far out
like, when you drive out in like the

American West and you can see the storm
that's like two days down the road.

Aaron: Right,

Brad Frost: that, that is the horizon
that you need to do something that big.

'Cause all these people were
like, how did you do that?

I said, well, because I, I drew a
box two years prior and everyone

could see it coming from a mile away.

All of my work colleagues were able
to be like, we know that Brad's

gonna be out for these three months.

I knew that I was going to be out.

I knew that I needed to earn a couple
more acorns in order to do it comfortably.

So that's my hypothesis.

It worked for three months.

I wanna do another one
at some point in time.

That is closer.

E either a year or, or, or a,

Aaron: What I'm wondering is, and even in
those three months, because you weren't

the buck, were you spending less too?

I mean,

I know, I know the answer.

I look back at a talk I did
in 2012 I said, I think I'm

gonna fucking retire at 40.

I got some cake in the bank.

I'm getting tired of this grind.

And I got yelled at by this rock and
roll guy named Chuck profit I used to

work for was like you're not doing that
We don't get to do that as musicians.

You're no different.

You know, you keep hustling.

things fall into place.

My dad died.

I have to take care of
certain things, whatever.

It's not a bad story, it's a good story.

it got to go to a lot of cool places.

But what did you learn when
you got that three months off?

Brad Frost: So there was a couple things
in that, three months in my pursuit going

into it was for two seconds, I wanted
to know what it felt like to be bored.

Without the clutter, without
the obligations, without the

emails, without the whatever.

I wanted to wake up in the morning
and I wanted to just get up

whenever I felt like it, and to say,
what do I feel like doing today?

And, and to just accept it.

There's no should.

I've had other things
where I'm like, okay, cool.

I'm gonna like carve out this
stretch of time and I'm going

to, I'm gonna write my book.

I'm gonna do that.

There's this urge, this compulsion that
we have that's like, oh, well we gotta

like, be productive with our time.

And on one hand that's true.

On the other hand, there's limits to it.

Everything in moderation, right?

So I wanted to get a taste of what
it felt like to not give a shit about

those 17 emails in the inbox and to
embrace just, just being for a while.

And it was only, and this
is why I wanna do it again.

It was only towards the end
that I really kind of started.

Aaron: to you walk on the end of
the dock and you jump in the boat

just 'cause you're in the water.

You gotta get away where
you can't see the dock.

That's gonna take a couple months where
we just put what happens if a client

and in week three of that 12 weeks says.

Oh, oh my God.

We have a devastating thing.

We have to change this.

You're gonna go right back to
it because I know your nature.

Here's the thing.

When I take the time off to get back
into the swing, it is harder and harder

and harder to do to get that momentum.

What we were accomplishing in November.

It was disgusting.

The pace we had making new merch, wrapping
up 17 of those clients I did that all in

the series of November and December, but

that

month, that meant that when, You know,
for 12 days of merch mis, we do this

little goofy thing called 12 days of
merch Mis first 12 days of there are

five posts you have to build in design.

There's a real, you
have to put up in film.

Put a graphic on it.

There's It was just too much.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: Nice return, we saved it all.

And I just chopped off a mountain of Lee's
debt, you know, so I, I freed her up.

Why are we doing this shit?

You know,

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aaron: just have the account bank account
and be like pull yourself up by your

bootstraps No I'm fucking freeing her
from all those the chains of unfair shit

and,

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aaron: I told my accountant, she
was like, no one ever does that.

We're not married, I've
been with her 16 years.

I mean, I love the woman, so I

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: logic and went and drained
one of the accounts and she gets

to walk around a lot lighter today.

I know it was

loans

Brad Frost: Beautiful.

Aaron: car cars paid off and
some other bullshit's paid off.

because

I have had that levity for a lot of years.

When I get a bill, I fucking pay it.

What a privilege.

I want her to have that same thing.

By the way, I've already
done that for my mom.

I've, you know, to help
my little sister and shit.

you know, what's around you, you know,
that is job number one because you're

coding and you're making beautiful
websites and solving these digital

problems for people or whatever and
I'm making whatever bullshit I make.

It's not like we're swinging a hammer,
but I gotta tell you some days it

sounds pretty cool to go swing a hammer,

Brad Frost: Oh dude.

I fantasize about that all the time.

Aaron: I, wa by, by the way,
when the guys built my shop here,

does, how does the beam connect
to, to the piece of concrete?

And he goes, watch, and there's clips
and you put the beam in the clip and

zip, zip, you know, and it's like, oh,
and then you get another beam to that.

And it wasn't any big mystery,
but I miss working with my hands.

Brad Frost: totally.

Hundred percent.

Aaron: Youngster back there.

I see a little,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Hey, hey to Erin.

Hello.

Aaron: Hello there Hi there.

I gotta go do some stuff I got I
got something I gotta be two by five

Brad Frost: You do your thing, man.

Hey, thank you so much
for, for, for talking.

This is, um, this is fun, man.

I like thank you so much.

This great.

So take care.

We'll see you later.

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