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A podcast for homeschool families brought to you by Sequoia Grove Charter Alliance. Encouragement, tips & tricks, interviews with HSTs and curriculum help.
Rebecca: Welcome, listeners, to the Sequoia Breeze Podcast, a breath of fresh air for your homeschool. I am your host, Rebecca LaSavio. Thank you for joining us today as we spend some time talking to Dr. Alexandria Ryan, who is one of our intervention teachers here at Sequoia Grove. Today we are going to tackle the topic of gifted students. Who are they? How do we identify them? What do they need? What do we do if we have a gifted child, but maybe others who aren't. What if our children have some learning challenges? Can they still be considered gifted? So, so many questions to answer. And Dr. Alex has a lot of wisdom to share with us. So here we go. Welcome, Dr. Alex. I'm excited that you are here today. Would you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Dr. Alex: Yes, thank you. I'm so excited that I'm here today as well. So, like Rebecca said, my name is Alex Ryan, and I am a intervention teacher here at Sequoia Grove. I've been here for about two years, but prior to joining Sequoia Grove, I taught gifted enrichment and I worked for my school district, working with teachers and students in the gifted department, and I also taught some content areas in the gifted realm. My background is not in education. My undergrad is in psychology and legal studies because for a little while I thought I was going to law school. And then I realized my real passion was in education. And so my master's and my doctorate are both in curriculum and instruction with a focus on gifted education and specifically what gifted adults do for their careers. And so I have a huge interest, a huge passion for it, and it's something that is ever evolving. So lots of fun things for me to learn at all times.
Rebecca: I bet that's a whole, very interesting conversation all by itself, what do gifted people end up doing for careers? But I will resist the curiosity on that and we'll stay focused. So we're going to talk today about how do you know if you have a gifted kid and what to do with them if you do. And so let's start at the beginning and talk about what is a gifted child?
Dr. Alex: Yeah, for sure. So the leading body on gifted research is the National Association for the Gifted Child. And they define a child who is gifted as a student, person, child, learner, anyone with gifts and talents who perform, or they have the ability to perform at higher levels as compared to their peers or their experienced peers or the environment in one or more domains. And so this might be really in interpersonal relationships, in leadership, in spatial awareness and music ability. There's lots of different domains. But something that's also really important to keep in mind is a child who is gifted also really needs a modification beyond a general education curriculum to support their gifts and talents and to support their learning and make sure that they are being challenged appropriately.
Rebecca: I just want to say, well, let's come back and unpack what that means in a minute, but yeah, go ahead and finish your definition.
Dr. Alex: So something that's important to remember about students who are gifted is they come from all backgrounds in all populations as well as all socioeconomic statuses and they all deserve an appropriate education just like any other student. And I'd love to touch on this later as well, but they could also come from all different learning and ability levels and that's something that kind of gets skipped out on sometimes in gifted education. But it's always important to keep in mind because you might have a student who is really gifted in reading, but they might not be incredibly gifted in math and that's okay because people develop asynchronously.
Rebecca: So besides that, do you also mean that sometimes gifted kids aren't living up to their potential?
Dr. Alex: Oh, absolutely. So a lot of times gifted students, especially if you have one of those kids that they are very aware that they are just smart enough to do just the bare minimum and then they can use their energy to do literally anything else. They are the ones that might not be living up to their potential they might be living up to their potential in other areas. But they have got you figured out so they know exactly what to do to get you off their back.
Rebecca: Okay, and do you think that that's probably a problem equally in brick and mortar school versus home school?
Dr. Alex: Oh, absolutely.
Rebecca: Okay.
Dr. Alex: A lot of times students aren't identified as being gifted initially or ever because they are able to put forth just enough effort and they know about how much effort it takes to just meet their baseline. And so if teachers and administrators and learning coaches aren't aware, these kids might kind of slip through the cracks until someone realizes, like, oh, hey, actually, this person is really artistic and really creative, and they really think outside the box, and they are like, ten paces above the teacher, but they don't really produce a lot of work. It's probably because no one's ever really called them out and been like, hey, I think you should do more, or hey, have you ever thought about expanding upon this? Because a lot of times I know that teachers and learning coaches, we are all very pressed for resources and time and so we're just trying to make sure that we get everything for everybody. And so it's easy when you have a student who is giving you exactly what you need to realize, oh, actually they might be giving me exactly what I need, but they can do so much more and I need to be giving them what they need.
Rebecca: And I would imagine it can be a real challenge too, to coach a kid that you can tell, like, they're smarter than me. So can I keep up with them or do I know what to do to help challenge them?
Dr. Alex: Yes, for sure. And that definitely happens. I always love to tell the story about my little brother. He is the most genius person that I know. And it's so funny because he is one of those people that he's real quiet, you might not know he's kind of a goofball and he just doesn't give off that he's the smartest person in the room. And he would come home every once in a while from school and tell my mom, I don't have to do this because I'm smarter than the teacher. And my mom would say, oh no, that's actually not how school works.
Rebecca: I knew with my kids that they're going to be smarter than me and I just wondered how long till they figured it out. So how does a parent know if their child is gifted? If they think, you know, I feel like they do things a little differently or this seems to come really easily to them. How do they know if I've got a smart kid on my hands or we're crossing into the gifted realm?
Dr. Alex: Sure, that's actually a really great question. And so in my own education and in my postgrad work, there's lots of research being done. There's lots of research coming out all the time about how is a child identified as gifted? And so the kind of like cut and dry answer is pretty standard. It's a 130 IQ or higher and that's generally what they do in brick and mortar schools. But it also might be like a certain test score on a different test. The IQ test is generally just the one that is done. Recently there's been some pushback on the IQ testing though, because there are so many students that aren't being identified as gifted because they might be twice exceptional or they might just be a struggling test taker. And so there is a real push to look beyond just test scores. So there are lots and lots and lots of signs of being gifted in kids. And one you might notice, and this is the one that I notice first off, in a lot of my students, is they might have a really quirky sense of humor or like a very mature sense of humor. And so the first time that I noticed this in my own classroom was one of my students told a joke that I thought was funny and then no other student in the room made a noise. It was just crickets. And so then I really went on for the laughing. And then my students kind of like followed suit and they're like, oh ha. Then I asked the student, I was like, oh, can you explain your joke? Because I thought it was really funny. And he kind of looked at me like I had twelve heads. Like why would I need to explain this joke? And that's how I knew so they might also be super creative, problem solvers, very imaginative. So your high achieving students, they might be getting A's on their work and being like yes, I know this information. But your gifted students are asking constant questions. They already know this information. They already have all of the basics. They already have the extension activity figured out and now they want to know why am I doing this? Or why did this happen? Or why did they use steel to build this building? Or why do cows have black spots and not orange spots? Because it would make more sense if this happened or this happened. And so they will just go so much more beyond what your general curriculum or general education student might think of. Something else that's really unique to gifted students is they are incredibly big feelers so they feel everything so deeply, which is amazing when you have those great moments and you're so excited and so curious and so ready to learn. But also they might feel things like the weight of the world is on them. They have a big concern for local justice, maybe even at your home or on a larger scale like in the world. And they're so invested and they care so much and they might really struggle with they, as a child are not able to solve this problem because it just seems so clear to them. And they might have this really deep curiosity. And sometimes I know this is hard for learning coaches and parents and teachers and anyone that works with kids is they have a lot of questions. And sometimes we do not have the answers to these questions or these questions might not have answers in the world right now, but they just have this big curiosity that can't be contained. So they might also be super interested about very unique topics, things you've probably never even considered that is like their real passion in life. Not to super give away my age, but I really love some social media right now on TikTok, there is a big thing about what is the niche if you were a gifted student, what's like the niche time frame that you were really invested in? And I sent this to some of my high school friends and all of them within 30 seconds had multiple answers. And one that really made me laugh was a friend of mine said do you remember when I was really invested in Victorian England? And I just thought that was so funny because your standard person on the street probably is not going to say hey, do you remember that one time I was really invested in this one weird time frame. But it's so funny because it's just like those really niche things that make them so unique but also really drive what they're interested in. And I think that's fun and exciting and I love that I can share that experience with my gifted students.
Rebecca: Earlier you mentioned twice exceptional. Let's define that and explain what that is real quick. Also sometimes referred to as two E, right?
Dr. Alex: Yes. So twice exceptional or two E is basically the idea that students who are gifted or thought to be gifted might also have a learning disability or a learning challenge. And they're referred to as being twice exceptional. And that phrase comes to having two types of educational exceptionalities separating them from general education. So I'd mentioned earlier the NAGC, which is the National Association for the Gifted Child in 2018. They made this public statement and they encouraged students who are suspected of being twice exceptional or students who are thought to be gifted, but maybe they have something that people are like holding them back a little bit. They really suggested using the Wisc or another set of tests so they could document their diverse strengths and making sure that students, even though they might have a learning challenge, they still have access to gifted enrichment. In my own research, I found this qualitative study that really just blew my mind. In 2021, there was a study of parents in Texas that found that students who are twice exceptional, their parents felt that their students were supported in their disability but left behind in their need for gifted services. And in some states, gifted services fall under the Ese domain. And so I thought that was so interesting, but also so heartbreaking that these kids were getting part of what they needed but not all of what they needed.
Rebecca: So, for example, are we talking about maybe a kid who is gifted but also dyslexic or a kid who is maybe autistic but also very gifted in other areas? Are those a couple of solid examples?
Dr. Alex: For sure. So a student who's dyslexic and also gifted, a student who might be on the spectrum, is also gifted a lot of times, not always, but it does show up often. There might be a student who's gifted and has Asperger's, all sorts of things, and it really could be any sort of thing that could fall under special education.
Rebecca: So a parent shouldn't dismiss, well, my kid has struggled learning to read or my kid has really struggled with math, so they probably aren't gifted. They shouldn't necessarily dismiss that there's multiple things going on within their child.
Dr. Alex: Absolutely. So something that's super important is all people, not even just gifted students, develop asynchronously. And so it is very unfair for us to I don't want to say judge, but it is very unfair for us to look at these students and expect them to just be incredibly amazing perfectionists at every single thing that they do. So you might have a student who is an incredible reader and they're in third grade, but they're really reading at like a high school level, but they're just on grade level for math. And that's very normal and very typical of gifted students. And it's not something that parents should be like, oh, they need to catch up to what they're gifted in for me to have them tested. They need to catch up in their math skills for them to do this more higher level thinking thing. It really is people are just good at some things and some things that's just not their jam.
Rebecca: Well, when you were going through the list of how to identify if your child might be gifted, you weren't talking about accomplishments, you were talking about the way their brains work. Right. They're highly curious, highly sensitive problem solvers. Like to be with adults. You weren't talking about how they read or how they do math, right?
Dr. Alex: Absolutely. So it's really based on their potential. It is not based on what they present. I know previously in some states, it was based on your standardized test scores. And I don't know about you, but standardized testing is not fun for me. And so I would know a lot of students who were incredibly gifted and they would just not care. And so they would not do well on this test because they were more concerned about drawing a picture in the back or taking a little nap or making funny faces at their friend across the room. And so it's not about what they're producing. It's really about the potential that they have.
Rebecca: And that's a difficult thing to measure, isn't it?
Dr. Alex: Oh, for sure, because we always want to believe that our kids have unlimited potential. And so that is very hard to identify because you can say, oh yes, I know that they could read at a high school level, but sometimes maybe your kid is just they have the potential to read on grade level and that's great. And that's such an accomplishment as is.
Rebecca: Well, so that makes me wonder, is it important to identify a gifted kid? Does it matter?
Dr. Alex: I think you might be asking the wrong person because I think that's the most important thing that.
Rebecca: Talk to me about that. Why is it important?
Dr. Alex: I think that is one of those things that absolutely changes lives and especially for a student who is identified before they get to a secondary school. So like middle school or high school. So I have a student in mind that I taught who he really struggled to make friends in his general education classroom. And he was that student that did not care about standardized testing. He started to misbehave because he was so incredibly bored with what they were learning. And when he was tested for gifted and placed in a gifted enrichment program, he thrived. He was able to make friends so much easier and he really just clicked with the kids that were in his group because they were also experiencing that. So they were all very intense feelers. They were super curious, they were really advanced and it was never like he was the OD one out. It was more like he had found his group of people and that really is so important and I really just think about that with any kid I've ever known. They really are looking for people who are just like them to be friends. Maybe they love baseball and that's what they have in common. They love oh gosh, they love theater and that's what they have in common. And maybe these kids just love this really obscure niche thing and they've been looking for someone to have that in common with them and they finally found it because they were identified and put in this opportunity to find someone that was very similar to them.
Rebecca: Do kids need to be identified through testing or like if a parent went through the list of things that you said were like, you know what, that kid qualifies. Like that kid matches what up with what she said and then just pay attention.
Dr. Alex: So it really depends. I think that in a brick and mortar you have to follow the processes. But I think that in our we are so fortunate because we have so much flexibility. And so for parents that are listening right now that think oh my gosh, this is totally my kid, I really encourage you to find other students and other people around you that are also interested in what your kid is interested in. And don't discredit maybe someone that is older or younger and don't discredit how incredible a mentor can be because a lot of times gifted students naturally gravitate towards adults because they have the maturity of a little old person. And I get it and I understand and I'm there with them. But that is really a great way to find people who can relate and who are interested in the same things. Also look for ways to just enrich their learning. We are so lucky to have this kind of flexibility in our setting that we get to make these choices for our students about how they learn and where they learn and what they learn. The world is your oyster for learning coaches. To find opportunities for your kids to be mentally stimulated, to be enriched, to learn beyond, to be accelerated. The possibilities are endless.
Rebecca: Earlier you mentioned that there are modifications that need to be made to the education of a gifted child. So you're talking about finding some mentors, finding some people that are similar to them. That's sort of maybe one modification. What else can parents do? What kind of modifications do these kids need?
Dr. Alex: I would say one of my favorite modifications for my students who are gifted is to ask them what kind of products they want to produce. So you might have a student who is an incredible writer and so instead of writing a one paragraph response to a question, maybe it would be a better use of their talents to write a story or a screenplay to answer the same question. And so you're really hitting multiple areas in that. Yes, they can answer the question. Yes, they have the factual knowledge, but this gives them the opportunity to go deeper and wider. And so then they can tell you the fun facts about it, then they can tell you why it happened, what happened afterwards, and they get to use that creative ability by adding other characters or by developing a setting to go with your question. There are little modifications like that that can really take the basics and make it so much stronger. So it's just like intervention. So you have like tier one, tier two, tier three, but you can think of modifications for gifted students as the same thing, but opposite. So you're just making little changes to support these students. So maybe your homework assignment comes with sentence starters, but maybe your student who is really excelling in English, maybe they don't need those sentence starters. Or maybe your student who is really, really excelling in English, maybe they don't need those sentence starters and they can create a different sort of product. Or maybe they could write a skit for you and maybe they could perform it. Or maybe you have a student that is really invested in graphic design. And so instead of just telling you how Photosynthesis happens, maybe they could make a poster for you using Adobe or Procreate or something like that. So they're able to really practice and harness and show off what they are good at, but still get the information out.
Rebecca: So you're saying where intervention is for kids who are maybe struggling in a particular subject and they might come to you and work with, okay, so let's try this and then, okay, that's still not working. So we're going to go a little deeper and we're going to go a little deeper. You're talking about maybe going the other direction with a gifted kid of maybe we take this a little farther and if they can handle that, then maybe you take it a leave a little farther. So when you're comparing the two, that's where you're going with that, right?
Dr. Alex: Yeah, for sure. So it's funny you say that because last night I went to a cycle class and the instructor kept saying, you're going to need a little bit more support underneath you when you stand up or when you go faster. And I had never taken this class before, but it really struck me because our department that I work in is a student support department. And I thought, oh my gosh, that is exactly it. We just need a little bit more support underneath us. So for the people that come through intervention, you just need a little bit more support underneath you. For your students who are gifted, you just need a little bit more support underneath you to get the education that.
Rebecca: You deserve for the most part. Are you talking about modifying standard curriculum or are you talking about throwing out the normal stuff.
Dr. Alex: So you can definitely modify curriculum. And this is not me telling people you need to throw everything away and start over completely. There are so many great resources online. There are so many great resources probably in your curriculum books, and there are so many great resources just around you with the people around you to really just dive deeper. And so I encourage you if you are sticking with the curriculum and you're trying to use work through the workbooks, take whatever that is and just go deeper. So maybe you encourage your student to learn what happens before and what happens after or what's the history behind it or who's the person that discovered it, just depending on their interest. Because you can really do so much with just a simple standard. And I think that is one of the things that standards we really have this great opportunity with standards, is because it is not just a yes or no that there's so much depth and complexity that can go along and creativity that can go along with each standard. And I think that we are in such a unique place where we can hit so many different standards from so many different curriculum areas. So if you're learning about science, you can also incorporate writing. If you are learning about math, you can also incorporate public speaking. If you're learning about history, you can also incorporate science. So there's lots of different things you can do.
Rebecca: Like I can statements when you're talking about standards.
Dr. Alex: Yes, okay, I can statements. And so I would say if you have a student, well, really all students, because I think all students deserve voice and choice. You have a student, I would just ask them, how do you want to show me this? Do you want to just tell me the facts? Because this is something you might not be super invested in. And so if I know that, you know, we can move on. Do you want to really dive deep into this? Because you are really fascinated with rock formation and do you want to learn more about the people that discovered rock formation? Do you want to learn more about how it happens? Do you want to try and do our own simulation? So I think it's super important to ask your student what they want to do in this opportunity. And something that I really like to do is to give choice boards or choice lists. Because sometimes if you ask a kid like, hey, just tell me what you want to do, they're like, oh my gosh, so many options. I don't even know where to start. I'm never going to start because I don't even know what I want to do. So I think it's important to give like a list. So maybe one of the options is you just answer the question. Maybe one of the options is you show me you give me a demonstration of how this works. Maybe one of the options is you create if they're interested in graphic design, you create a poster explaining this. Maybe you take this to a different level. If it's something they're really invested in, maybe you go to the library and do their own research. I think something that the education system as a whole is lacking right now is a really strong sense of research skills. And so I'm always encouraging someone, everybody I know, to research and know what sources are reliable, what resources are biased. So this is a great way to introduce your students to that, but also still hitting those standards and still learning what you want them to learn, but just in a more in depth way. There's this awesome thing from a website I love called Birdseed, and it's a great resource for students and parents who are affiliated with a gifted person. But they do this thing called Depth and Complexity. And so the idea is you go really deep and you learn a lot about it. And so in this idea of Depth and complexity, they have all of these little different graphics to help you rethink what you're looking for. So they have this thing called Depth and Complexity, and so they have these little different icons, and it really helps you think from a different perspective. So they do power change, system structure and conflict. So how does this topic that you're looking at, how are there different powers in place? How does change happen? What systems have to happen for this thing to happen? What structures have to be in place for this thing to happen? And then from there, you can take those things apart. Like, what would happen if we took out this one type of chemical? Or what would happen if you had this plant? You're learning about photosynthesis, but the sun never shined there. What would happen to that plant? So you probably would go on this whole deep dive of, well, if the sun's never shining there, the plant might have to adapt to grow. You could talk about how plants change over time, adapt to their surroundings. So there's all sorts of different things you can do. And something I really love about Depth and complexity is it can be applied to absolutely everything that you do. So even if you're just out and about going to the grocery store, maybe you're out and about and you're going to the park, you could talk about all of these things too. What different systems have to be in place for this park to exist? Who started this park? What would happen if someone wanted to build a building on this park? And so you've taken this one simple task, going to the park, and made it this great learning opportunity for your kid to think so much deeper than, I'm just going outside.
Rebecca: But I'm guessing you probably can't do that across every subject. Like those kinds of things. I would assume. Might be better used in the areas where they excel or they're interested in, but maybe if you trying to go deeper in every subject is just going to lead to frustration. Would that be a fair assessment?
Dr. Alex: Yes. So I would say that is definitely a fair assessment, but I would also encourage people to use depth and complexity and use these different things to engage your students. So something that I'm really invested in is history. I love history, love historical fiction, and so when I was a kid, I had a hard time getting through science because I thought it was incredibly boring. But I had a phenomenal gifted teacher who had the great idea to teach me science through history, and so I would spend a lot of time learning about the people that did these ideas or theories. It made the actual science part more digestible to me because I was so invested in the people behind it.
Rebecca: So maybe instead of I guess partly what I'm thinking is the little I know of gifted students is that too much repetition on something they already know just is going to cause rebellion. So maybe depth in math instead of just more problems or yes, absolutely. If you've got it. Let's move on.
Dr. Alex: Yes. One of the ways that they differentiate in brick and mortar schools is more meaningful, not more work. So have a student, they show you they have it, and maybe it's like the first day that you're supposed to be doing this lesson. They were able to do all ten problems perfectly on the pretest that child does not need to spend three weeks learning about multiplication. That will be so soul sucking to them, but you can use that as an opportunity for them to maybe create like a board game about multiplication or maybe they can move on to something more challenging or they can get involved in some problem based learning. Something that I really found successful when I was in a brick and mortar setting was kids love to learn about money. And so you can spend money on whatever you want to spend money on and that's really what gets them invested. And so that is a great way to kind of add depth and complexity and an aspect of the real world to something like multiplication.
Rebecca: What are some weaknesses that gifted kids have to deal with? You already sort of mentioned the two sided big emotions. You can have really big emotions in a positive way and you can have really big emotions about negative things as well that can just send you into a tailspin. I think this is true in life that for every positive trait a person has, there's almost always a flip side. So they may be very giving, but that means that they drain themselves. So there's this kind of positive and negative thing. So what are some of the weaknesses that parents should look out for in their gifted kids.
Dr. Alex: So some weaknesses that gifted kids have, and I want to reiterate that this might not apply to all gifted students or all individuals who are gifted. Something that I noticed in a traditional brick and mortar setting was a lot of times these kids would get really bored and they would misbehave because they were so bored. And so then other teachers would be like, well, I don't think that they're gifted because they are not just sitting there with their hands folded all perfect and just waiting for me to teach them something that is absolutely not how it works. And I would even venture to say that if you have a kid that is constantly bored, I would maybe test them to be gifted or maybe dig a little deeper, because there's probably a reason that they're bored. They also might not care about what you want them to care about. So sometimes that might be school, sometimes that might be science, sometimes that might be whatever project you want to get them started on. I had a student who did not care about holidays, and so anytime the school would be doing something about holidays, he was out. He didn't want anyone to ask him about it. He didn't care. It wasn't important to his family. And I think that is so important to respect what students interests and values are, because when you are invested in what's important to them, they are so much more invested in you. A lot of times gifted students kind of on the flip side of getting bored, they really want to live up to what they've produced before. And so in my research, I interviewed, like, 50 gifted adults, and they were all talking about how they really struggled with almost chasing that high of I did this really good thing once, and now I want the adults. Or the important people in my life to always think that I'm doing that good thing or they want to do that good thing for themselves. And sometimes you're just not great at everything, and that's okay. And sometimes we don't hit the mark, and that's okay. And so that's something that's really hard for kids who are gifted to understand.
Rebecca: That sounds like setting themselves up for either being anxious about that or worrying that they're disappointing others all the time.
Dr. Alex: Absolutely. That is you hit the nail on the head. So that really does increase their anxiety, and that also leads to maybe not even wanting to get started on something because they already know in their head it's not going to be as good as it was last time. And so that is such a hard thing to get over. And I love a growth mindset, and as an adult and as an educator, I am all on board. But if you would have told me at ten years old, be like, all right, Alex, it's not going to be good, but we're going to keep trying I'd be like no way, I'm just not going to do it. It's not going to be good and I'm going to be sad when is not as good. And I know so many students that really struggle with that and they don't.
Rebecca: Want to let perfection gets in the way of good.
Dr. Alex: Yes, perfection gets in the way of good and because they know that they have reached such a high level that good is just not even on their radar. It's almost like that kid that is so crushed when they get a B and everyone else is like oh yeah, I got a B and they're like a B? It's the end of the world. And so I think that is very hard and so something also that gifted people might really struggle with is making a choice and so in my research I was interviewing adults about their career fields and I had so many people say I wanted to do everything. Which made me laugh because when I was a kid I wanted to be a princess doctor. I don't know how I was going to do both but that was really what I was aiming for. In fact not a princess or a doctor well I am a doctor but not a medical doctor. So many people just really struggled with getting started like what did they want to do? There were so many options. How are they ever going to pick a major in college? How are they ever going to decide? Because they want to do 5 billion things and that's so hard and it's so unfair to have to choose this one thing. When you have just this vast variety.
Rebecca: Of interests what is your advice in managing some of those things for homeschool parents? How do they manage those big emotions? How do they help a student get started even though it may not be perfect? How do they avoid well, maybe you don't want to avoid boredom because creativity can come from boredom but for sure you do want to avoid a scholastic boredom and so how do you address some of those issues?
Dr. Alex: I think some of the most important things that you can do is listen to your student. They are telling you whether it's verbal or just by their actions or their emotions they might not come out and say hey, I'm really bored doing this, I don't want to do it anymore. Because they want you to be happy with what they're doing or they might not feel like they can say that. So make sure that you are listening and paying attention and asking them what they think or asking them what they feel. And sometimes if you're able to get your students to this point to follow their lead because like I said, they are telling you what they want whether it's verbal or not and you can take their lead and encourage them and maybe encourage them even to say no. So something that I really like to do is give options because I do have a lot of students in the past and now that will think I don't know how to get started. So you can do this, you can do this, you can do this. And then I always give an option that's really off the wall or you could do something totally different or you can give me an idea. And so sometimes people will be like oh yes, I have a creative idea I want to share. And then sometimes the students will take the off the wall idea just because it sounds new and fun and different and novelty is one of the best things we can do in education. So I think it's important to give them options and ideas and different options. And so if they want to choose something else, they can. But if they want to keep going how they are going, they can. And my last little bit of advice would probably be to remind them and model this for them. The modeling is the most important part. And I am saying this to myself and to everybody listening for 100 years. They don't have to be great at everything and it is so much more life giving to let them shine and enjoy what they do love. And so much more encouraging. And it really helps your kid build confidence when they are able to take part in something they love to do. I'm not saying don't ever give them a math problem again, because that is absolutely important and you need to do that. If the option is, like, between tennis or surfing, and they love tennis, and that's their favorite thing to do. Don't make them do something they hate to do. And also make sure that they know that they can say no. Or they do have choice. They have the floor, or they have an open opportunity to tell you, hey, I don't like this. I want to do this instead. And I know sometimes in parenting that is hard because a lot of times you will do what I say because I'm the parent or because I said so. But I think it's important, especially as learning coaches and parents, that students are able to express how they feel and what they want to do. In terms of academics, I would also say I know I just really give to students like tons of credit in the world. But they are also still kids and kids still do need guidance and they need to be encouraged and maybe reminded a few times they're not just going to do everything perfectly just because they have this identification. So it's important to still give them check ins, be like hey, did you get this done? I know you're kind of struggling with this, can I help you do this? Would it be more helpful if I showed you how to do it or if I gave you five minutes to do it alone and I came back. So it's important, especially as we have kids that are growing and they're just like, good at everything and they finally hit this thing that they might not be good at. It's important to show them that they are supported and they can finish this task. Because we want to raise children to be adults that can still accomplish things and not just throw it to the side because it got hard or challenging. But we also want to model grace because sometimes life happens and sometimes we don't get things done, but we have opportunities to fulfill whatever we needed to do with the people around us. And so I think it's just really still knowing that they're kids and not just like this little genius person that doesn't need any support ever.
Rebecca: I can imagine, too, that those kids that are perhaps a little mature beyond their years, but they still don't have the life experience. So there are times, no, sorry, you don't understand the consequences of that decision, or you don't have any way of knowing what following through or not following through on this particular thing will lead to. And you may be smart and you may be mature, but you don't have the years in your life that will help you see that.
Dr. Alex: Yes, there was a TV show I watched once where and I can't remember what the name of it was, but I've never seen it again, so I'm sure it wasn't that high quality. But the kid took apart a computer because he was really interested in what happened with computers. But then the consequence of that was the family computer, the desktop that you had in your family office 100 years ago. That computer was no longer usable because he was so interested and he took it apart, but he didn't know how to put it back together. And so that was a real learning experience for that student. And I remember the parents in the show being so angry, but I was like, yeah, I mean, I kind of get it. I would do the same thing, but I wouldn't even think of the consequences because I was so invested in doing this one thing.
Rebecca: Talk a little about family dynamics. I mean, it's possible to have multiple kids. Maybe not all are particularly gifted, maybe some are a little more traditional learners. And you've got this one kid who's maybe needing to do things. Can families still work together or is this gifted kid going to need to go off on their own tangent?
Dr. Alex: Oh, I definitely think families can still work together, and I would highly encourage families to continue to work together. There is a lot of research out right now about having a sibling who is gifted or being the sibling that is gifted and how ostracizing that can be. So I would really encourage learning coaches and parents and HSTs and anyone to find opportunities for your family to work together and also to make sure that you are recognizing and praising a variety of different things in all of your children. You never want to have your other children being like, oh yeah, my one sibling was gifted and they were the golden child. My parents spent all their time with them. They were always the smartest one. They were always the best at everything because that is so hard for the other child. And so I would highly recommend that you still work together and maybe there is an opportunity for learning coaches and parents and HSTs to find something that overlaps for those students and it might just even be a topic. So maybe you guys are learning about a time in history and so you go to the museum to learn about it. So you're still doing this same activity altogether and you're still getting this really fun experience and everyone is really enjoying themselves. But whatever you do as the assessment part, maybe it's just a little bit different and that doesn't have to be sitting right next to each other and saying like, okay, Sally, you're my gifted student. You're going to do this really hard thing. It's going to be way more fun than what your brother Bobby is doing, and Bobby's just going to copy down sentences. There's opportunity for something fun and exciting and engaging for everybody.
Rebecca: Should gifted kids be told they're know?
Dr. Alex: I think that is such a good question and I wish I had a really factual answer for you. And I've done many hours of research on this. People do have very strong feelings about being told that they're gifted or not. So I think on one side, it is one of those things where a kid can be like, oh, I'm gifted, I'm better than everybody else. And I think that is really learned. It's a learned idea because they see someone else being like, you're the best, you're so smart, you're so talented. You are the smartest, you are not smart, you are not whatever. You are the smartest. Like the superlative. And so I think that is really dangerous. But on the other hand, I've seen kids who they find out that they're gifted and they're like, oh my gosh, this makes sense. I feel like I understand myself better now. And so I think it can really go two different ways. And something that I really like to encourage, especially when I'm working with families that either have multiple gifted students or maybe they have some kiddos that are gifted and some kiddos that are not, is to really find what each kid loves to do and it's okay if they are not excellent at it. I love to dance and I am not a good dancer and it is what it is. But my parents were so good about really encouraging me, like, this is the thing that you love and you can still do it even if you're not the best. And so I think that is something that parents and learning coaches can really instill in their kids. You can love something, you can still not be the best, you might not ever be the best, and that's okay. But it is fun and you love it. And you might be gifted in some areas and you might not be gifted in other areas, and you might not be gifted at all.
Rebecca: Regardless of whether they're gifted or not, you're focusing on what they love.
Dr. Alex: Yes.
Rebecca: And that's true across the board in the family.
Dr. Alex: Yes. You never want to ostracize any of your kids because one is there and one is not. One is getting it, one is not. You want to just make sure that they are loved and appreciated and praised for who they are because they are different people and not all gifted learners are the same. So we would never expect two siblings to learn the same. And it's just important that kids know that where they are is okay and good and they are on their own right path.
Rebecca: I want to go back to one thing you mentioned earlier, because it's an interesting word to apply to education. I'd like you to unpack it a little bit. Is you mentioned novelty.
Dr. Alex: Yes.
Rebecca: Talk a little bit more about that in regards to both gifted students and to more typical learners.
Dr. Alex: So I would say novelty is for everyone, it is for grownups, it is for kids, it is for your dog. Novelty is one of the most fun ways to learn. And it sounds like something like, oh, this is just an education term, but novelty really just means something new. And so the very quick and dirty novelty things are change your location, add motions, change your message or your medium. Maybe you could add food because people love food. Or like a fun thing like that, or candy. So those are all easy novelty things to add in. So if you're learning about the ocean, how funny would it be just to walk in and there would be little goldfish everywhere, be like, oh, this is so weird. Why is this happening? But I promise you that your learners are going to definitely remember that one day that there were all these goldfish all over, and that just makes such a deep rooted memory. And so that's a fun thing you can do for novelty. You can talk about perspective taking. When I was in the classroom, I taught gifted seniors in high school, which is a tough crowd, and I always encourage them to take different perspectives. So one thing we were learning about was the Black Plague, and I was like, all right, guys, here's a list of items. And I made everyone pick their item before I got started. And this one kid chose a rock, and I said, okay, so you're writing about this primary source that I'm showing you on the board, you're writing about it from the perspective of this rock. And he was like, I don't know what you want me to do about this. And I was like, well, this is just an opportunity. It was just like a bell ringer opening thing. So it wasn't anything like super summative. But I was like, this is just to get you thinking about what's going on and what was the perspective from the ground when this was happening. And so perspective taking is a super easy way to introduce novelty as well, playing on strengths. Like I mentioned earlier, your student, instead of just writing an essay, could write a screenplay or record a podcast, write a book. And I think those are all really easy way to incorporate novelty. Some of my favorite things to do, and I will just die on this hill. I love to do them. I love to label something a mystery. You can't do it often because then people are like, oh, man, a mystery every day. I'm not Nancy Drew, but every once in a while be like, all right, the Boston Tea Party mystery. What happened here? And so you've kind of reframed instead of just looking at this picture, we are solving a mystery. We are trying to figure out what's happening. And so then not only are you getting the facts, you're also getting those critical thinking skills, because I'm not just telling you what's happening. Project based learning is also a great way to introduce novelty because you're solving a real problem that might be important to your student or even thematic learning might not always be fun. Because if you're not interested in penguins and you're spending a whole month just learning about the Arctic and penguins, that might be a little boring. But if you are interested in penguins, the big focus on one thing for reading, for math, for science, that is so fun and it's so exciting to do cross curricular things because it's all based on each other. It all has to do with each other. And you're really just immersed in this example in the world of penguins for however long. So those are kind of some of my favorite ways to introduce novelty into learning. And I would always just ask too, I think, like I said before, there's so much power in voice and choice. And so just to ask your students, like, hey, would you want to do this? Or, hey, what do you want to do?
Rebecca: Let's talk about a few resources that parents can go to. I will have a list in the show notes you've already mentioned, the Birdseed website and a couple of other things I know two things I'm a little bit familiar with. If you go looking for gifted curriculum, there's not a ton out there. But I do know Michael Clay Thomas is a well known sort of language arts website. I don't know if you're familiar with that or not. And then Beast Academy is math from a different perspective, like you about earlier. They do a lot fewer problems and a lot more problem solving, and it goes a lot deeper. So any kid can use it that's up for it. But it's kind of been built, I believe, for the way a gifted student's mind works. Is that a fair assessment? Are you familiar with them?
Dr. Alex: For sure, yes. And I would say you're absolutely right on both of them. I love Beast Academy. I also love a self paced program for students because a lot of times they will learn something and be ready to move on. And so I want my students to be challenged and engaged. Beast Academy does an excellent job doing that. There is a curriculum called the Pets Curriculum, and it's spelled just like the little animal. And this is really directed more towards your younger learners, but it really goes into critical thinking skills. It goes into different levels of Bloom's taxonomy, and it's fun and engaging and it's appropriate, which is something that I think sometimes teachers and learning coaches can run into, because you have this kid that is such a strong reader, but you don't want them reading James Patterson books. You want them to be reading something a little more age appropriate. So I think Pets is really good. It also really goes into flexible thinking, which is kind of a fun term, and it has fun animals. It's very user friendly. They have good videos. There's lots of great resources. Their customer support is incredible. And they have this really good blog that goes along with it called in the Trenches. And it's how people use the Pet's curriculum, either in a classroom or at home, and people come up with all these really great ideas. And so it's an excellent curriculum on its own. I'm not sponsored by pets. I just really like them. It's a great curriculum on its own, but it also gives people an opportunity to kind of see what other people are doing and what worked for them and what didn't work for them.
Rebecca: Dr. Alex, thank you so much for being here today and for sharing your passion with us. And I appreciate all of your wisdom and knowledge on this subject. And listeners, again, check the show notes. We'll have a little list of resources there for you.
Dr. Alex: Thank you for having me. I had so much fun. And if anyone ever has questions or ideas or they just want to chat about gifted education, I am always all ears.
Rebecca: If you're up for it, I will put your email in the show notes as well, and people can contact you that way.
Dr. Alex: Yeah, absolutely. I'd love that.
Rebecca: Perfect. Thank you for joining us today on the Sequoia Breeze Podcast, a breath of fresh air for your home school. I am your host, Rebecca LaSavio. I'd love to hear from you podcasts@sequoiagrove.org or go to your school's website, find the podcast page and click the button and you can leave me a message. Just as easy as that. Let me know. What do you do with your gifted learners? Do you have questions for Dr. Alex? What resources have you loved? Please tell me. It would really make my day.