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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:01.806)
Good morning. How are you? Hi. So for today's episode, we have another guest. We are being joined by Dr. Nicole Cabrera-Salazar. Did I say that right? I don't think I've ever said your full name before. But she's going to be joining me and Becky in conversation to talk about just the mess of...
Becky Mollenkamp (00:04.291)
Hi.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (00:04.916)
Good morning.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (00:20.296)
Yeah.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (00:23.646)
hahahaha
Taina Brown she/hers (00:31.147)
leading a life.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:34.895)
PLEASE
Taina Brown she/hers (00:34.949)
moving towards liberation. Yeah. Just the messiness of it all. A full stop. Yeah. The mess of life. Full stop. So you are an astrophysicist turned social impact consultant. But I saw on your intake form you were the first case of Zika in Georgia when that happened. So how, how
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (00:37.107)
No.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:37.849)
The mess of living life could just be a complete, that could just be the name of the show. Yeah.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (01:00.127)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:04.129)
How did that happen?
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (01:06.398)
So I went to Colombia for a really good friend's wedding and it hadn't been reported in Colombia yet. It was only at the time reported in Brazil. And then I came back through Miami and then up to Atlanta by car and started getting the symptoms about a week after I came home. So like just a rash, my joints were hurting. Like I couldn't eat with a spoon. It was like that much inflammation. So I went to my doctor and
She was like, hold on, she leaves, she comes back 20 minutes later. And she was like, did you get any mosquito bites while you were down there? And I was like, I got one on the last day that I was there. And she was like, I think you might have Zika, but I have to send this to get tested by the CDC. So they send it off. I don't hear back, like for weeks. And then a friend sends me a news article and was like, hey, is this you? And in the news article it said,
the first reported case of Zika in Georgia. Someone who went to Columbia, through Miami, came to Atlanta. But then it took the CDC like weeks to call me and let me know that that was the case. Yeah, so that was wild.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:14.582)
my gosh.
Wow, so patient zero in Georgia. Yeah.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (02:20.134)
Literally. Well, in Georgia, yeah, for sure. That's like whenever I have to play two truths and a lie, that's one of the ones that I use.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:27.195)
That is, that's incredibly fascinating. It's also wild how like it was reported to the public before it was confirmed to you.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (02:30.57)
Okay.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (02:37.002)
I know, no, totally. And they were kind of rude low key when they got back to me. They were like, well, you have it. was like, can I have some more information? But then what is cool about it is that I became part of an MRI study that was, it was very early days. And so they were, they drew like my blood like every six months. I, because I went on a trip, I had like an itinerary of every single day so I could track my symptoms like really accurately.
So as scientists, they loved me and I was like, I'm a scientist too, like I'm curious what you're gonna do with these data, you know? And so when they published a paper, they gave it to me and they were like, this like, it was three samples of blood and they were like, X one, two, five, seven, like this one is you. And it was like the first step toward finding like a vaccine, like the very first step. So I was like, that's fucking cool. I love that.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:27.401)
Yeah, yeah, that is cool. That is cool. Well, thank you for sharing that story. That's totally random, but also not in a way because it is about it is messy. Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:37.944)
Because it is about, it is messy. It only adds to my disgust and fear of mosquitoes. So thank you.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (03:46.226)
Yeah, no, same.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:48.049)
Yeah, so you're an astrophysicist. I think my first question for you before we get into anything else is like, how did that happen? Like how did you decide? Astrophysics? Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:57.401)
Can I ask one that's even worn before that? Which is, what is it? Like, I think I have like an idea, but if I should be told if somebody said describe what an astrophysicist is, I don't know that I could. Like I kind of know what physics is. I kind of know what like I'm assuming astro means, you know, out in the skies, but how those come together.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (04:03.065)
yeah.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (04:16.264)
Yeah. Yeah. So it's the science of studying the skies and the stars, planets, know, galaxies. So astrophysicists will study the physics of what is happening out there. There's a lot of observations. So you go on a telescope, you can observe different stars and other celestial objects. And then you...
you can make discoveries. So for instance, my dissertation was on exoplanets. So I was trying to find planets around stars other than the sun. So we know the solar system, but there are planets out there around pretty much most of the stars in the night sky. And so my job was to look at a set of stars that are like the sun, but extremely young to try to figure out how planets are formed. So
That was my dissertation. So basically just figuring out like the science of all of the things that are going out there, going on out there in space.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:23.611)
That I don't understand any of that, but I'm completely fascinated by it. Like Cosmos has always been like the original Cosmos and the new Cosmos. One of my favorite favorite shows. So that's really interesting. So when did you decide you wanted to be an astrophysicist? Because and how how did you like had you seen someone who looked like you before the astrophysicist? Like what what was that like?
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (05:25.832)
Yeah.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (05:51.174)
No, so I grew up in poverty and my parents didn't go to college. I was actually the first person in my family to go to college, but I happened, just so happened, to go to public schools that had science programs in them. And I was very good at math and science, so they put me in these, you programs. And in the ninth grade, I took a physics class. I fell in love with it. I started taking more math and science, AP physics. And my physics teacher,
from high school, I loved him. He went to Georgia Tech. So I said, maybe I'll go to Georgia Tech. then, you know, I took a class. I went to community college, transferred to Georgia Tech. And my first semester, I took a class in astronomy. And I was like, well, maybe I want to do something in astronomy. Like, it was just very like, I kind of fell into it. But then that journey was like, okay, that led to having a summer internship.
in Hawaii and then in New Mexico where I actually got to go on telescopes and observe, you know, the stars and try to look for planets. I also observed the sun and the surface of the sun. So it was like all these experiences and I was like, OK, like this is something that I want to do. But I totally fell into it. A lot of folks who grow up with like access to science and, you know, even like museums and stuff that like
we couldn't really afford when I was younger. They'll have stories like, I took apart radios when I was a kid and all this stuff. And that wasn't my story, but I had very good teachers in the public school system. I went to a very supportive community college, and then I had very supportive mentors that were able to guide me along that.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:36.687)
I have to ask here because you know we talk about the world and what's going on and what's going on at the moment is definitely fighting against would be would make put so many barriers in place in your story that would probably have changed your trajectory with what's going on with Department of Education and you know everything about DEI and I just curious
what do you think as somebody who has that experience of being a woman and being, I don't know your heritage, but I assume. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Okay. Right. So being an immigrant, being Latina, being a woman, all of these things, what do you think is the benefit? What are the tangible benefits of having people who aren't just white men in the sciences, in STEM, because I feel like what's going on right now is going to put us.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (08:12.01)
nothing, I was born in Chile, so I'm an immigrant too, and yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:32.813)
back, not obviously, and not move us forward in that regard. So what gets lost when we don't have those diverse voices in those spaces?
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (08:41.204)
For me, it's, well, there's definitely, there's like so many studies. We have like decades of sociological studies that talk about how, know, diversity is really important for problem solving, which is what science is, you know? And so like, we know that a room of people with different experiences are better at solving problems than a room full of experts. We've been knowing that for like a decade, I think now. So we know that like,
that gets, those perspectives get lost. And so the science itself is not as innovative. And that's the argument that a lot of people use to sort of support DEI and making sure that, you know, marginalized people are represented in STEM. However, that's not my argument because to me that gets really into like capitalism and like, you know, being like, this is your worth. This is what you can contribute so that we can make the science better.
so that the United States can be the number one country when it comes to science and innovation and all this stuff. And I don't like that argument because it actually bypasses the inherent value that marginalized people have and their right and their sovereignty to explore science and explore the universe, which is for all of humanity. So to me, it's a matter of justice.
rather than a matter of like representation. Because I'm like, honestly, without us, it's real boring out here. It's real unseasoned in the sciences. So I'm like, y'all are definitely benefiting from our presence and our brilliant minds. But at the end of the day, for me, it's about, we have the right to be here just as much as anybody else, you know?
Taina Brown she/hers (10:12.767)
you
Taina Brown she/hers (10:23.806)
Yeah, yeah, the benefit is like secondary. Yeah, yeah.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (10:27.698)
Right. Because I'm like, you're going to benefit for sure, you know? But it's like, who gets to decide that? And there's all kinds of questions of power. academia, there's not a lot of oversight. There's no HR, you know? So there's a lot of exploitation that's happening. Not like other industries where there's much more like deeper levels of exploitation, but it happens. And so I think it's really important because
Taina Brown she/hers (10:37.631)
Mmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:42.131)
Mm-hmm.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (10:56.21)
marginalized people are canaries in the coal mine. Like we can, we can detect what fucked up systems there are and the, and, point them out so that they can get better. Shouldn't be our job, but it does happen to be my job because I left my field so that I could start my company movement consulting. And that's what I do. I help people figure out like organizationally, like this is not working for anyone. Right. but.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:23.071)
Mm-hmm.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (11:25.16)
the people that it's gonna affect first are marginalized people.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:29.596)
Yeah, yeah. I like how you framed science as problem solving, right? And I often just think about the origins of like science and objectivity and this concept of just like pure objectivity, right? That is prevalent in a lot of science circles that include things like the scientific method. And so what, how messy or what is the messy work of like
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (11:47.242)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:59.846)
staying true to that idea of framing science as a way to do creative problem solving without buying into those colonial, Eurocentric ideas about how to do science.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (12:16.788)
That's a great question. I love good questions. So the thing is, science, like you said, there is this myth, even among scientists. mean, scientists, especially like what they call the, well, the physical scientists are much harder to, it's much harder to convince them and to like, that they understand that actually they have a lot of bias.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:18.871)
Hahaha
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (12:44.488)
And even though like if you're looking at a Petri dish or you're looking through a telescope, like you're still gonna bias what you're observing, like where our grant funding goes to what we are going to study, what do we prioritize? All of that is biased, right? And so within these places, within academia, within STEM, there is this aversion to emotion because we are like...
we think we're so rational. We're like, this is science. This is not about emotion. This is about logic and reason. And yet those same people are having beef with each other in their publications. There are people heckling you during your presentations. There are people literally fighting each other. So it's kind of like how in politics they're like, well, women can't lead because they're too emotional. But then you have these people on the Senate floor fighting each other.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:41.956)
Yeah.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (13:42.218)
who are like grown ass men. So it's kind of a similar vibe. And so something that I teach is about coming in and like being raggedy. So we have, for example, a course that we teach that's about mentoring, but really it's about coming correct and being in right relationship with other people. And the very first step is recognizing that we are human and we have emotions.
And those emotions get in the way of our relationships and it also gets in the way of our science. so learning to be messy in an environment that is constantly pressuring you to be more and more aesthetic and more and more sort of robotic in the way that we interact and telling all of us to leave our humanity at the door. My mission is to completely undo all of that and bring the humanity like back in.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:38.938)
Yeah, I like how you said, be raggedy. Be okay with being raggedy. I haven't heard someone use that phrase in a long time. So raggedy. So in the messiness of all of that, how do you draw boundaries? Because you are a scientist, right? Just because you left academia doesn't mean that you're not a scientist, right? This is a conversation that I have with my wife all the time, because she's trained as a biologist, but she is not a-
practicing biologists and it's like, you're still a scientist, like you're still a biologist. So how do you draw boundaries between the messiness of your work and like just the messiness of just like life, right? Because so much of what you're doing with movement consulting, like in your job is what everyone should be doing every day in life anyway, right? So like where, how does that get messy for you? I guess is what I'm asking.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (15:09.129)
Right.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (15:35.048)
Yeah, so I think like, I'm gonna come at this from like a deep end. If I may be messy. Something that I struggle with is I teach a lot about community and how important it is, first of all, to connect with ourselves, understand our emotions, understand our needs, so that we can better show up in community.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:44.792)
Absolutely.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (16:03.074)
The idea is to move from an individualist perspective to a collective one within academia and to understand that this is a community and that we need each other and teaching all of those basic principles that Indigenous people have been practicing for millennia. And so I teach about all this. I know how to do it, but myself personally,
actually leaning on community and allowing other people to help me, that's where things get really messy for me.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:39.809)
I can relate to that so much. Because I think so many of us can and it's often the thing that we're helping people with is the thing that we most struggle with ourselves, right? And that's why we're drawn to that work. And so I totally feel the same thing. I think for people, because Tayina knows you personally better than, and we're just meeting. So can you tell me a little bit about what your work is now? I think for all of us just to better understand how you're showing up, because my guess is it's probably
addressing some of those things where you're feeling your own messiness.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (17:12.618)
Absolutely. right now, I'm still, you know, academia specifically, but science more broadly is my wheelhouse. Like that's where I say I came up through STEM academia specifically. And so I know that world very well. And that's been the crux of my work for a long time. But I realized that the concepts that I teach that are based in social justice are actually applicable to
many other types of organizations. And with the attacks on, you know, quote unquote, diversity, equity and inclusion from the federal government right now, there are many federal agencies like the National Science Foundation, the National Institutes of Health, NASA, you know, all of these different federal agencies that fund science and that are being affected and that there's a lot of compliance, pre-compliance there.
that is preventing folks from doing the very, very good work that they've been doing for decades, right? And so, in terms of that work, I'm still in the science community, still working with the science community where I can, but also shifting to other types of organizations, companies and orgs that do care about this stuff and are not federally funded, so they're not beholden to the current executive orders. So that's kind of like...
where I'm at in terms of that work, in terms of my internal work, the work that I have to do to show up in these spaces. Right now, my biggest struggle is allowing myself to be part of the community rather than leading the community because that has been my role for so long. Even back when I was a graduate student, I was mentoring other grad students and undergrads.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:57.544)
Mm-hmm.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (19:03.592)
You know, throughout my career, I've been a mentor, a leader, a destructor. But in a way, I think that it's just so easy to fall into that pitfall, that narrative that capitalism and colonialism like lays out for us, right? Where as a leader, you are set apart. And so even within my company, I felt like personally responsible for all the people that I employed. And it was this thing where I have to be held accountable.
but I don't get to be part of the community. Like I have to lead it, but I don't get to be a part of it. That is coming from my own beliefs about worthiness and like, you know, am I worthy of care and things like that. So the thing that I'm struggling with right now, honestly, is like, I'm trying to be really honest about my needs and the things that I need from others and then allowing that in because I actually put it out there on Instagram.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:44.626)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:53.83)
Yeah.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (20:03.69)
I'm like, okay, I'm like struggling with this. And several people reached out to me. sometimes what can happen is like, if somebody that reaches out to me and maybe I don't know them that well, I don't know, a protective mechanism that my brain does is to be repulsed by the help that people are offering. And it feels counterintuitive because...
Taina Brown she/hers (20:18.777)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:23.067)
Hmm.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (20:31.324)
you would think like, somebody's helping me. So I'm going to feel grateful. I'm going to feel held. I'm to feel cared for. But when you have a lot of those internal narratives, I think that because I had to reflect on it be like, why am I like gross? Like it almost like grossed out these feelings of disgust and like, like, you like, why would you want to help me? Almost this judgment, this criticism that's like, OK, like you don't even know me like that. Like, why are you coming to me?
Taina Brown she/hers (20:47.099)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:52.91)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:00.529)
Mm-hmm.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (21:00.892)
I had to break that down and be like, okay, what is happening here? And what I realized is that I feel deep down so unworthy of that care that it's easier for this critical part of me to come out and be like, wow, that person is so cringe that they're trying to help me. It protects me from receiving this thing that I feel deeply, deeply uncomfortable about.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:04.367)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:18.32)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:30.424)
Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, that well, that's really good. I think I can relate to that too. Just as being someone who's just like has always been super independent, eldest daughter, heavy, heavy earth side energy. It's this sense of just like feeling like you have to do it all on your own.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (21:43.603)
Yeah. Ooh.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:56.783)
And you have to figure it out yourself. And if someone tries to help, like you said, that feeling of just not feeling like you're worthy of it gets projected onto the other person instead of facing it and owning it. so that's been a journey for me as well. Becky had to step away for a second, but she'll be right back. Her kid is at home for a snow day today. I have a question, because we've talked a lot about the messiness of just work, life, everything.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (21:56.798)
Yeah.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (22:07.3)
yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:27.177)
When was like your messy awakening, like if you can pinpoint it, like when was a moment in your life where you're just like, this shit is like really messy and it's gonna continue to be messy and I have to be okay with that.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (22:45.812)
There's been so many, there's been so many times. I honestly struggle a lot with this feeling. I mean, this feeling of perfectionism, right? Like I'm at the altar of perfectionism, like, you know, every day. And so every time that I fall short,
of this standard that I've, this impossible standard that I've set for myself and that I would argue I was taught to set that standard and perfectionism is a coping mechanism. It's helped, it helped me survive some intense trauma. But it's like any, literally any time that I, especially when I feel that I'm letting other people down, that's when I'm like, that those feelings of like intense shame,
Taina Brown she/hers (23:20.974)
Mm-hmm.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (23:43.132)
self-criticism come up. And like I said most recently, I think it has been, I think I've had like a million messy weekdays. And I tell people that it kind of feels like what I call the ugly mirror, where you have like, it's like you're looking at a mirror and the mirror is showing you all of these like dark, deep secret parts of you that you keep hidden away.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:52.575)
Hehehe
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (24:10.17)
and that you don't want anybody to see and that you yourself are so disgusted by and you keep them really, really buried. And there's been so many instances of that where I've had to, you know, through therapy, through like intense, how do you say, deep trauma therapy, like EMDR, which is not for the faint of heart, that's like, you know, boss level therapy. I have been able to be in contact with the parts of me.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:30.592)
Hmm
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (24:41.23)
that I have pushed away for a long time. For instance, like my queerness, you know, growing up in a fundamentalist household where that was not an option, right? And then coming into my queerness later in life and having to confront this part of me that I had buried so deep for so long, you know, also even just like my sexuality in general, like as a...
Taina Brown she/hers (24:44.747)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:09.515)
Mm-hmm.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (25:10.314)
and being taught purity culture, there's been a lot of instances where I've had to, you know, confront those parts of me that I feel really ashamed of. And these days, it's literally like, it isn't just like, I don't feel worthy of receiving love and care, but the messiness comes in, in terms of like, I need to think of myself as part
of a group of people, not just someone who's gonna like provide solutions and care take for everybody. And I think that's been like the hardest, the hardest thing for me right now, you know?
Taina Brown she/hers (25:53.214)
Yeah. What are in the journey of like all this messiness, right? Like what are some things that you have found to be helpful to navigate the messiness of entrepreneurship, of academia, of just like life in general?
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (26:13.012)
Community, I think the community is the answer to everything. I preach that all the time and I am now like begrudgingly taking my own advice. But every time that I connect with someone and like, you know, my brain tends toward depression. So it can be very isolating. I isolate myself. I go into this hermit mode where I'm like, I'll just play video games and I won't like interact with anyone or like.
You know what I mean? Just kind of like put that off. Especially because like I've lost a lot of community in the past and it feels so painful. But every single time that I like drag myself to like, to a community event or where I'm like, I'm gonna, somebody calls me and I'm like, I'm gonna pick up this damn phone and I'm gonna talk to someone. Or I'm like, I'm gonna pick up the phone and call a friend or call my family.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:42.505)
here.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:48.36)
Yeah.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (27:10.89)
Every single time it feels like a relief. It feels like there's a burden being lifted because we're not meant to be in isolation. We literally haven't evolved that way, right? We need that connection. And so I feel like that has been my lifeline. And I'm on a journey now after two years of self-isolation, after a big...
Taina Brown she/hers (27:19.049)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:25.575)
Yeah.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (27:38.096)
messy, messy blow up within my own organization and losing a lot of my community and having to take responsibility for a lot of the mistakes that I was making and also give up some of the responsibility that I was overly taking. You know, I'm finally in a place where I'm like, okay, there are people in my life who care about me. I'm gonna reach out to them. I'm gonna stay connected. And let me tell you something, I have to...
Taina Brown she/hers (27:52.135)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:55.759)
I don't like.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (28:06.11)
Drag myself to do it. Like I'm going kicking and screaming but But like I said, it's like that's the thing that is Helping me the most just staying connected to other people sharing information, especially in this time where we're living through So much censorship so much erasure Literally things are getting erased from like federal agency websites like the seat things like that
Taina Brown she/hers (28:09.542)
Hehehehe
Taina Brown she/hers (28:20.743)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:31.6)
Yeah.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (28:33.435)
It's so important to stay connected and share information. And I'm trying really hard to do that now. I don't do it perfectly, right? I don't think anybody can, but that's my lifeline right now.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:42.096)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:46.01)
Yeah, yeah. How would you define community? Because I think, you know, that's it's somewhat a little bit of like a buzzword, you know, where every time we're in crisis mode, we're like, community, community, community. And what I have found in my own experience is that like sometimes people mean different things when they say community. And so going into community spaces, people have different expectations. And that's where a lot of conflict and harm can be done. And so
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (29:14.942)
period.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:16.919)
I always like to just define things from the get-go and say, this is what we mean. This is what we're talking about as we're venturing into this conversation. how would you define community? would you say that there are different levels of community in terms of how you show up? Because one of the things I've talked about with some of my clients before is community is really anyone that you're engaging with on a consistent basis.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (29:19.56)
Yeah. Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:45.536)
So like your doctor can be a part of your community, but you're not going to engage with your doctor in the same way that you would like your partner or a best friend or something like that. So I'm just, curious to hear your definition and what that means on like the big, like in the big broad scale of things, but also at the very micro level.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (30:09.974)
yeah, yeah, such a great question. So I'm sure y'all have heard this quote that I don't remember who said it, but it's like, everybody wants to be in the revolution, but nobody wants to do the dishes, right? So, Solange said, know, don't wanna do the dishes, just wanna eat the food. You know what I mean? So for me, community begins at home, right? Literally in your home, like how...
Taina Brown she/hers (30:31.78)
Mm-hmm.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (30:38.854)
is your home a place that people can go to for refuge? I'm a big cook. I love to cook. And I like to make meals and just text people and be like, are you hungry? Like, you want to come over for some food? You know what I mean? I think like food is such a big part of especially marginalized communities, communities of color. Like it's such a big point of gathering. I have, I live with my wife and our roommate and
Taina Brown she/hers (31:02.262)
Mm-hmm.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (31:07.26)
It's a really good practice in expressing your needs, being able to communicate, you know, uncomfortable things, being able to receive maybe uncomfortable feedback and staying through that. Like to me, it's about being able to move through conflict in a way that is not totally like issuing it altogether, but like leaning into that.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:32.514)
Mm-hmm.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (31:35.178)
And then from there, from that place of like, okay, we started here at home and we're creating this type of engagement of right relationship at home, then taking that into everywhere else. Because I've been part of many community spaces, political organizing spaces, the science community, the Latin dance community, like so many different communities where...
Taina Brown she/hers (31:47.703)
Hmm.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (32:01.252)
we talk a lot, like we say a lot of things. We say all the buzzwords, all the therapy speak, but are we practicing it? Are we doing the internal work? Are we reflecting on like how our behavior affects other people? Are we voicing the things that bother us? Because it takes that. It takes that amount of like showing up and being honest and being real, you know? So to me, like community is about,
building a network of people who are willing to engage in generative conflict with each other and stick around for those messy parts without judgment and without like...
throwing people away, but also like, I mean, it's complicated, right? Because then there's a time for setting boundaries and like, do you know what I mean? I think a lot of us are like really averse to conflict and that can honestly really rob us of community. Because people are messy.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:51.787)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:59.915)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:09.313)
Because people are messy. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:11.635)
Yeah, yeah. I like that you touched on not throwing people away, because I feel like, especially here in the United States, there's such a culture of disposability. If something doesn't work, you throw it away. You get a new one, right? It's just habit, this pattern of just like, we'll just get a new thing, just get a new thing. And that gets mapped onto our relationships in ways that sometimes we aren't aware of, and sometimes we are. We can look at the prison industrial complex as
part of that whole disability culture thing. Becky, were you going to say something?
Becky Mollenkamp (33:43.919)
Well, I was just going to ask, as you mentioned about asking for help and full transparency, I had to step away for a few minutes because there was some conflict in my home with my child and my partner. And so I was stepping in to help with that. and of course, I felt my my like.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (33:51.998)
you
Becky Mollenkamp (34:00.865)
as I was doing in the chat, I'm so sorry, my gosh. And of course, know, Taina's like, it's okay. And of course it's okay, right? Because sometimes we have to just like be human and be messy. But it can be hard to ask for that kind of help. Like in this moment, just to be able to say like, is it okay if I step aside or like feeling like I can do that? It takes real community to be able to feel like you have that and that you won't be disposed of or any of that. But it's so hard, I think, to get to that place of being able to ask for help, to be able to lean on community. Like you can really believe in community.
preach about community, help people build communities, build community yourself. And then yet still not really be in the community because it's one way. You're giving, you're showing up, you're helping, but you're not taking. And I think for so many of us, especially I think for women and probably most folks with marginalized identities, there's a lot that has led us to feeling like we need to give and never are allowed to take. And so I'm wondering like what your experience with...
that was like, what do you think helps sort of form that for you? This feeling of like, it's hard for me to ask for help. And then what helped you get over it? You know, I shouldn't say get over it. As soon as I say get over it, I'm like, I'm sure you're not over it. But what has helped you begin to be able to ask for help?
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (35:08.33)
I'm not gonna
You know, the reason is trauma. Period. Shout out to my trauma.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:19.919)
I wanna say that's probably the reason for most things, right? If we get honest.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (35:22.602)
Listen, trauma, like grad school trauma, community trauma, church trauma, like all kinds of trauma. And the thing is, okay, these are the questions that I'm asking myself these days. Because like you said, I'm definitely not over it. I'm at the beginning of my journey of like finally allowing myself not to coast and really challenge myself.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:32.849)
Bye.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (35:49.448)
And the questions that I'm asking myself these days are, what makes me hold on to these beliefs? Because they serve a purpose, right? I don't believe in self-sabotage. That's number one. Everything that our brain does is protective, right? Our brains are so good and our bodies are so good at protecting us from feeling things that maybe it believes are too overwhelming for us that will make us
cause us to break down. And so to me, all of these behaviors, like, God, I'm thinking of a Bible quote, of course, but I'll throw it out there. I'll throw it out there just because sometimes it helps me. But it's like, there's this Bible quote that's like, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. And I think my brain works that way. Because like in the background, it will be doing something and I'm not aware of it. Like my conscious mind does not know that that's happening at all.
Right? So just one example is that every once in a while, I will be like, I'll tell myself, I'm like, you know what? I've been doing really good. Maybe like, let me not take my Xanax today or let me not take my, you know, my Zoloft today. Let's see what happens. Like, let's see how I feel. And the other day I told my wife, I was like, yeah, like I'm feeling really anxious, but I didn't, you know, I decided not to take my Xanax today. And they were like, my God, like Nicole, like.
Do you realize that you do that every single time you have a deadline? And I was like, what? They were like, yeah. And so I was like, shit, must be. This is my theory. don't, you know, I don't have anything to corroborate this, but my theory is that it's like, I have ADHD. My brain needs time pressure and a certain level of anxiety to be able to get things done. And so in the...
like the sleight of hand that's going on is like, don't take the pill that makes you calm so that you can like do all these things, right? So anyway, my point in that is that like there's all of these systems that are going on. There are all these parts of us that are trying to protect us. And so the questions that I'm asking myself these days are what is the purpose? Like what purpose is it serving? It's doing something, right? This whole like, you know, like for instance, when I'm like,
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (38:12.682)
critical of people who are trying to help me, right? What purpose does that serve? The purpose that that serves is that it keeps me, it keeps other people at bay so that I don't get hurt eventually in the end. That's what my brain believes. If I let people in, eventually I will feel pain. So that criticism is actually protective, right? If I don't let, if I,
If I let people help me, if I don't do it all by myself, then who am I? What is left of my identity if I just switch that up? You know what I mean? So like, I'm trying, this is something that I teach and it's something that I try to do with myself every single day is like trying to understand those parts that are coming online. Those parts that are like,
Taina Brown she/hers (38:56.363)
Mm-hmm.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (39:10.974)
there's some shit going on, we've seen this before, or like, you know, the trauma brain thinks that the trauma is ongoing. It's still happening. We have to protect it, right? So it's like, okay, like when this happens, like, what is it that I'm holding on so much to? You know? So those are the things that I'm trying to ask myself. It's like, when I set myself apart, like as a leader rather than as a member of my community, like,
Taina Brown she/hers (39:19.795)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (39:41.224)
What does that do for me? What is it protecting? And can I speak to that part of me and say, you don't have to work so hard anymore. Like you are safe from the things that happen to you, like you're safe from that, right? So like, I need to make that part of me feel safe. And I also need to push myself, right? Cause I'm the adult me is the parent and these parts are very young, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (39:50.999)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:07.177)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (40:10.63)
I need to tell them, hey, you don't have to show up to this scary conversation, letting my roommate know like, hey, I don't like this thing, whatever is happening, right? You don't have to show up to that conversation. You can go and play and the adult me will handle it, right? How can I soothe that part so that I can lean into it? And as an adult, eating my veggies, AKA leaning into it, even though it feels uncomfortable.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:38.93)
Mm-hmm.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (40:39.292)
allowing it to happen and then noticing how how that manifests in my body, you know?
Taina Brown she/hers (40:44.585)
Yeah, yeah. I like that you mentioned my mind just went blank. But yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:53.534)
Well, it makes me think of internal family systems, right? And parts where that is exactly. Yeah, which is so helpful. And it's funny because so much of what you're saying speaks. So it's directly like the ways that I've talked about this stuff for a long time, too, which is the self sabotage has really in the same way imposter syndrome really rubs me the wrong way as if we are now saying.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (40:56.699)
period. No, that is exactly the framework that we're using. Internal family systems therapy,
Becky Mollenkamp (41:14.991)
It's turning systemic issues onto us. And I feel like it's the same thing with self-sabotage. It's really like biological, hardwired stuff that is literally outside of our immediate control. I mean, there are things that the work we can do to begin to rewire some of those things in our brain, but, and then making it a failure, like a failing on our own part, which it's not, right? So I've always talked to the same thing I've always said to self-sabotage is just self-protection. And it's...
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (41:35.848)
Right. Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:42.517)
all about like you said that identity piece of who am I if I'm not this person, right? We become, we know ourselves so much be the person I'm the person who gives, I'm the person who helps, I'm the person who leads. And if I don't do that, then who am I? And that's the kind of stuff that that's like that existential crises kind of stuff that our brain immediately wants to shut down because it's scary.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:01.137)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I remember what I was going to say. The whole concept of self-protection, right? I just went through a somatic CBT trading and we talked about that. Every self-protective measure is there for a reason, right? It's there, it's serving a purpose. And once you can get to the root of what that reason is.
understanding that can help you implement a better way to protect yourself. But if you don't understand what it's actually trying to protect or why it's trying to protect you, then you're going to remain attached to that method that keeps you attached to your trauma, that keeps you in a place of not being able to receive help or not asking for help, et cetera. So as we're wrapping up, as Becky mentioned earlier in the episode, shit is just bananas right now.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (42:56.903)
yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:58.975)
in on so many levels. So how are you remaining hopeful these days? Like, what are you doing to hold on to hope?
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (43:10.452)
That's a good question. I read an article recently that it's a New York Times article. was an opinion piece that was based on an audio. It was a transcript of an audio essay. I forget who the author is, but I'm happy to send the link for your show notes. But the article talked about how we, everything that's happening with the current administration, all the executive orders that are coming out.
A lot of these things are illegal and federal judges are blocking them. The lawyers and the judges and the people who like, and even the people at the CDC who refuse to be bought out, who refuse, they're being told, hey, we'll pay you X amount of money, you quit, we're gonna pay you for the next year, you don't have to do anything.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:56.881)
Mm-hmm.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (44:06.558)
and they refuse to be bought out, they stay behind, know, knowing that at some point they might be fired so that they can continue to do the work that they're doing, right? This article talks about how the entire point of what is happening right now is fear and confusion. Their strategy is they're putting out so many executive orders, so many like things that the media cannot keep up.
And therefore we who consume the media cannot keep up. And the point of that is to keep us afraid and confused so that we don't have the energy to fight back. Right? And when I read that, was like, because the title of the article is Don't Believe Him. You can say, and this administration can say that they can do X, Y, Z, but they can't unless we give them the power to do so. Unless we
Taina Brown she/hers (44:37.701)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:53.093)
Yeah,
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (45:04.146)
lie down and say, like, okay, I guess this is the law now, right? And so to me, that gives me a lot of hope because I hear a lot of, know, I'm connected to people from federal agencies and there's a lot of like, I guess we should take pronouns off of our website. I guess we should take our pride flags off of our office. Like, and you know, there have been threats to federal agent workers. That's like, you know, you better get rid of
every single thing that has to do with DEI or else. And my question to the clients that I work with who have federal funding and just to people in general is like, okay, we need to think about what the or else is because the language is big on purpose. Like, or else what? Or else you're gonna arrest me or else you're gonna take away my funding or else you're gonna fire me, right? And we have to assess what is our risk? Like, what is my risk?
Taina Brown she/hers (45:54.955)
Mm-hmm.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (46:01.766)
level, like that I'm comfortable with, right? Because to me, I'm like, okay, take away my funding. Right? But other people might be like, hey, I'm a faculty member, and there are postdocs and students who depend on my funding so that they can live. Maybe that person is comfortable saying take away my funding. Right? But it's very different to say like, or else we'll, you know, fine you or sanction you. That's very different than saying we're going to arrest you. Right? So the language is based on purpose.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:15.214)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:26.671)
Right?
Taina Brown she/hers (46:27.608)
Yeah.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (46:31.07)
So we have to be able to understand that that is a strategy. Instead of succumbing to the ambiguous what if, right, we can still continue to resist. Resist until they tell me to stop, right? Like someone the other day was telling me, you know, we're doing this work and it's kind of affiliated with an organization that receives federal funding. You know, what if they send us a cease and desist letter?
And I was like, well, I've been sent a cease and desist letter before, by the way, like, because I put, I've worked with Harvard before and I put their logo on my website and they promptly were like, excuse me, you cannot do that. Please take it down. You can list us, but you can't use our logo. And I said, you know what? Okay. And I was like, when you get a cease and desist letter, you know what you have to do? You have to desist. That's it. You don't go to jail. You don't, you know what I'm saying? But like, I feel like we have to arm ourselves with that information and just know like all of this.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:23.588)
Nothing.
Thank
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (47:27.75)
Ambiguity is like scaring us into pre-compliance, but we don't have to do that. We can back together and we can figure out what is it that we're comfortable with doing and do that until they tell me to stop. I'm not going to stop, you know.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:33.516)
the year.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:40.897)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:41.636)
That that just to clarify for people so you don't have to send it later that article is by Ezra Klein and Taina and I just talked about it last week on the podcast. That's the timing. Yeah. And that you mentioned pre-compliance very beginning of the podcast because I noted it when you did and you just said again, it's nice bookends because I think that's a big message that I'm hearing from you. And I think we all need to remember is that like,
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (47:50.804)
my God, amazing.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:06.083)
Timothy Snyder's on tyranny, the very first one, right, is do not obey in advance. And so we have to like, and part of the obeying advance is the giving up, right? The, the shriveling away, the like, the thing I've been doing a bit of over the last few weeks and fighting against. And I, and I think that's a great reminder for all of us that, that allowing the mess of what's happening to like, shut us down, that is a form of pre-compliance. And so.
way to remember hope is like, can I not obey in advance? And it might be let the cease and desist letter come and then make the decision instead of making the decision based on some theoretical something happening. thank you for sharing that because I think it's important for us all to remember.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:48.458)
Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Nicole. This was a great conversation, jumping from astrophysics to entrepreneurship to cease and desist and trauma. So I definitely appreciate your time. If somebody wants to connect with you or find you online, where can they find you?
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (48:48.938)
you
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (48:55.498)
Thank
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (48:58.826)
Hahaha!
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (49:08.638)
Well, these days, I mean, I'm on Instagram. So our Instagram currently is at Move Boldly, that's for movement. And you can find my Instagram on there, it's tagged. And I am also on LinkedIn more these days because like I've broken away from Twitter. I used to be on there more, but I'm like, fuck that. And I technically have a Blue Sky account, but I've never posted and I don't really check it.
So Instagram and LinkedIn, ironically, are like your best bets for finding me online.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:42.836)
Yeah, awesome. Well, thank you so much. Have a wonderful rest of your week and yeah, just keep, I guess, doing it raggedy.
Dra. Nicole Cabrera Salazar (49:52.764)
Yes, and thank you for making this space because I think, you know, liberation is messy. It's not easy and it's not glamorous. Like, low-key sometimes taking, what is it, the red pill? It sucks.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:09.125)
Yeah, yeah, it definitely does sometimes. All right, well thank you all for listening. We will see you next week.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:13.049)
for joining us.