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Transforming the Game with Kristina Katsanevas is the podcast for game-changers, risk-takers, and industry shakers. Donât hate the playerâhate the game? Not here. These leaders are rewriting the rules. From high-net-worth entrepreneurs, founders of Australiaâs most iconic brands, and those disciplined enough to keep stacking those habits to success. We dive into the minds of pioneers innovating in media, business, fashion, sport and transformation.
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Kristina Katsanevas (00:00)
CEO and founder of M5 Management, global sponsorship leader, 25 years leading transformative sponsorship and strategy with some of the world's most recognisable brands. MasterCard, Lexmark, Kellogg's, Ampol, Citibank, Ironman, managed athletes like Shane Hill, Nicky Hudson, Kai Hirst, Matthew Heyman, Craig Alexander, MLE Seaborn, On and On. It took me 20 minutes to get out of the car.
I was shitting myself. I had absolutely no one in my corner. And it grew on me. It grew on me and grew on me. And seeing people with potential and having me being the cheerleader for them. I believe in you. Let's make this happen for you. We have done it. I can give it a red hot crack. When you truly want to be elites, you can't leave any stone unturned. You have to empty the tank.
It's the one percenters of the one percenters. This is biggest issue our industry has. Tier one sports, I'm talking about AFL, rugby, cricket, the ability for those organisations to get into the marketplace and sell their wares is a dime. worries me, you have athletes that have been in the Olympic system that probably haven't earned anything, all of a sudden get to 28, 32 years of age and have no ability to able to create wealth. They don't have a house to live in.
Kristina Katsanevas (01:16)
Phil, welcome to Transforming the Game. It's such an honour to have you here. The honour's all mine. Now, you've been in the sport management game long before it was cool. Where did this path stem from for
I've got this story about myself. People ask me why I started working with athletes. Why I'm so... I guess why I'm so dedicated to seeing... Why you're so obsessed. Why I'm so obsessed with seeing... people's other people's achievements. Well, no more about seeing people's potential realized.
Because I've got this story about I wanted to play AFL football and all my life I wanted to play AFL football. Do want me to tell this? Yeah, yeah. Okay. So all my life I grew up and I wanted to be an AFL football player. But I came from England. But when we arrived as 10 pound pom, as a four year old,
I remember running around the front yard of our place in Melbourne and I was kicking the football and all I did, at that stage it was VFL. I just wanted to be a VFL football player. And my dad moved around a bit with our work and I was very talented but due to the fact that my dad moved around so much and one of the places we moved to as a 13 year old when I was really at the prime where I probably should have been in a place that played VFL, we moved to Sydney. And I went to an all boys high school called Drumline Boys High.
and they did not play AFL. They didn't play football. They played rugby, union and soccer and bit of cricket. So I lost this massive amount of time in skills development and so on and so forth. And I eventually ended up playing with a local team called Western Suburbs and I went okay. And I was still highly ambitious to play and I remember calling a couple of times the...
the recruitment manager for the Sydney Swans who had just arrived into Sydney. And I managed to get, I was playing well and I managed to get a couple of, I managed to get an invitation to train with them during the season. They had a couple of injuries. So it's usually, you might get an invite at the beginning of the season to do some, you know, to do their pre-season training, but to get an invite in the middle of the season really meant that you might actually get a game, even if it was in the reserves anyway.
So I turned up to the SCG in my car. How old are you here? So I'm 18. Yeah. 18 years old. And it took me 20 minutes to get out of the car. I was shitting myself. I was so nervous. Because I'm walking into a, I didn't know anyone, I'm walking into a dressing shed with...
AFL football players, VFL football players back then, Sydney Swan players, players that I see on TV, I'm walking in there to train with these guys during the year. And it was terrifying, absolutely terrifying. And it was just me doing this. I had no one in my corner. I had absolutely no one in my corner. So I got in there and I did a great training session.
And that was it. And I went back home and I never turned back up again. And the reason why I never turned back up again is because no one ever came up to me after and sort of said, you can come back again. But they didn't say you couldn't. They never said you couldn't. And they would only ever say you couldn't. They'd never ever say you could. And I just didn't turn up.
it was a lost opportunity. so my point is, reason why, if I had at that stage of my life, and really that most stage of my life, I wasn't married, didn't have Michelle in my corner, my parents were divorced, I was living with a couple of other AFL guys, footy guys that were probably, you know, probably jealous the fact that I got, so they didn't encourage me. And it was just, and I just had no one sort of saying, hey Phil, you just gotta go again. You just gotta go.
So I had no cheerleader. Yeah, great. I had no cheerleader. So I lost that opportunity and it grew on me. It grew on me and grew on me about this lost opportunity and seeing people with potential and having me being the cheerleader for them. To sort of say, okay, look, let's make this happen for you. I believe in you. Let's make this happen for you. Let's work this together.
let's ring, let's do everything we can to make this happen and if we don't get it done, we don't get it done but we are going, I can give it a red hot crack. we're going do everything. Everything we can and my greatest example of that I guess is Melissa Rolanson, now Melissa Hauschlidt who as a busted silver medalist at the Commonwealth Games in steeplechase
turned up one day for a ride with our cycling team. And I just looked at her and just looked at her talent and go, what is this girl's gotta be something? Because all of us, she's keeping up with us. And she's on this shitty little road bike. And so we dug a bit deeper and I said, no, what else do you do? So I do a little bit of running and I said, can you swim? The triathlon. She goes, can't swim. And then I sort of thought, no, something's wrong. And I lost sight of her for.
for about four weeks I couldn't find her, she didn't turn up for training. I remember calling someone in Newcastle and I said, do you know where she works? So I end up hunting her down and saying, hey Mel, can I find out a little bit more about you? And what we found out, and at stage I didn't know that, that she was a Commonwealth Games silver medalist and she was at that stage broken, had stress fractures all over her and she was just looking to do something different. And I said, well, have we got something different for you, Mel?
And she didn't know it then, but I was already thinking about that she was going to be a world triathlon champion. she became one. And I was her biggest cheerleader. And you know what? And she will say this, and we still speak regularly. She went from really, I mean, she was a masseuse. She was probably only $25 an hour or something like that. She now owns a house in Noosa.
beautiful home in Noosa's got a lovely family, she's got a little girl Dakota and she's a three-time world Ironman champion. Two times 70.3 in one long course and still compete, still doing running. You hunted her down. I hunted her
Fun fact, I think if I'm right here her first triathlon was the Kingscliff Triathlon. Yeah, That I did have a hand in creating and I remember she won because I'm pretty sure it was my first triathlon.
created yes for and so and she was our first winner yeah that's why I actually remember she's amazing she and she was phenomenal so and then actually when I was and then we sponsored her yes my next life and yeah it's up but but on Melissa I her again for my appreciation of the athletes her mental strength it's credible was beyond anything extraordinary
This woman would be competing and it wouldn't matter what her body was doing. The power of her mind was going shut up legs. I remember her saying that. Shut Shut up legs. And she kept going. I mean she would collapse over the but she would get to the line and she would dominate. Her biggest problem was her pain threshold. It would put her into stress fractures. Her ability to be able to deal with pain was extraordinary.
And she did, she used to fall across the line. But holy moly, you wouldn't want to be racing if because of mental strength was just through the roof. Incredible athlete. And again, I guess that's why it's coming back to the story about not turning back up to the Swans training session was a massive pivot in my life. And why I think I'm...
Well I think I've become, I guess so passionate about seeing talents fully identified. And it's not for everyone, in fact a lot of people, my son included, who's terrific, now he's actually going to be a psychologist, he says, Dad not everyone can live up to your expectations.
I just hate seeing unfulfilled talent. The 1 % of the 1 % are just wired differently with how you...
You go harder, you don't give up, you keep going, that power of the mind, like you say, it's a different mentality. And your son right, it isn't for everyone, but if everyone was the same, it would be a very chaotic world. it would be. Yeah, we can't all be that way. No, we need some people at the drink stations, We do, and they have to be there. We have to be there. have to be there. It's amazing. That's interesting, and that's a really cool story about how that's fueling you and just the...
And then you're just living life and you're actually getting so many other people to live their lives. So there's no regrets. It's like no what ifs. You're like, we have left no stone unturned. We don't leave unturned. You will get there. That's one of my favorite sayings and it's such an old saying but it's so true. Because when you want to be elite, when you truly want to be elite, you can't leave any stones unturned. You can't. You can't no matter how. And I had this conversation with them. have to empty the tank.
It's the one percenters of the one percenters. You just have to do it. Yeah. Though in my swim coach, he would say if we're doing a final sprint, he's like empty the tank. And then you're in, even in your head, you start to gear up and going, okay, because I know when you've got, say a few sets to go, you might be in a different cadence. But when you know it's that last one or that's that the final, you're like, all right, I'm going to.
Do give it my all, get off and then you know you can rest at the end. It's actually as a young child when I was swimming, it's what I used to repeat in my head when I was in a race. I'd be like, if I was tired, I'd be like, Kristina, you rest at the end, rest at the wall, rest at the wall, rest at the wall. Like not in the rest at the wall. Sometimes it works. Sometimes you don't have anything left, but it's rest at the end.
Not in the middle.
Kristina it's been a passion for a long time, obviously. But even when I was working, I think you mentioned there working for News Limited was one of my very first corporate roles.
I used to sneak into where all the athletes and I used to go to get more information about them because I was just generally passionate about the business
So from News Corp then from there what was your path? Did you go into IMG from there? No, no, no, no. I actually started managing athletes, know, almost like a part-time basis. Still while I was actually an athlete myself. I just knew that through, guess, my relationship with corporates.
that I could, on the side, help a few emerging athletes. So I sort of just started playing around with, I remember one of our local triathletes who was a friend of mine that needed a new bike. So this is, oh god, this is 1994, 1995, long, time ago. And I was still really in the heart of my...
my corporate career and I still had a lot to do in that space but I was sort of dabbling around because I just really had this sort of energy of actually helping others and certainly those that didn't necessarily have the ability or the know-how to go out there and fend for themselves and find opportunities for themselves corporately and look for sponsors and it's something that came very natural to me so I just went and did it for them and I loved it and I sort of fell, I guess I fell in love with the
the talent management space pretty early and it really was probably another 10 to 15 years down the track before I started doing it professionally.
So you've got the athletes and they double down and they're either they're running the biking, they're swimming, whatever sport it is. But it's that actual commercial acumen that if you don't have some money coming in, you can't survive. And these poor guys that want to do really well and they're trying to build, they don't have that balance. So having an athlete manager come along and even back then where you just had the knack for, hey, actually, you're an asset. So you were looking at them at the lens of going, you've got value.
you're an asset to another company because you can show off in a different way your product. Let me help you. So that's where it all stemmed from. Now that's not something anyone's just usually comfortable with asking for something for an exchange for free. So what are the key skill sets you reckon you hold there that has made you different? Because I've never seen anyone in Australia do it better than you when it comes to this. business transaction, isn't it?
at the end of the day it's still a business transaction. It's no different if I'm, I mean I've grown up selling, it's what I do, it's what I love doing and even as sort of through corporate took on leadership roles I was still probably the most aggressive salesperson in the team, the teams that I was managing because I just loved doing it. So, in relation to
how that relates to an athlete, it's no different, you're still selling products. It's just that these products happen to be human beings and we're very close to them. So you've got to be close to these people because you want to be able to help them. No different than selling a spot on a radio network or a full page in a magazine or in a publication. It's pretty well the same. The process of selling is the process of selling and there's still a...
There's still a situation where you have to uncover a lead, you have to qualify, you have to make the cold call, you have to engage with whoever you're selling to. You've got to find a point of difference and then you've got to present your product. And in this case, the product is an athlete. I guess what we're selling is this athlete to be an ambassador for a brand and for them to be able to take that brand into the market. And in this case, in many cases, it could be corporate, but if it's...
you know if it's in the triathlon space for example it's effectively the multi-sport community and if we can effectively show that we can take this athlete and the brand, this athlete can take that brand into the demographic which or the actual area that this particular brand is trying to get into well then that's a business transaction and no different than you know selling a media space versus
selling an opportunity for an athlete. Very similar. Very similar. Well, Tom Cruise and Jerry Maguire, you would have heard this a lot,
show me the money!
Now, how many times you have heard that probably makes you want to cringe. I love it. Do you? I do. Good. I've been thinking about it all morning. But they've made athlete management very sexy. Yes. But is it that sexy or is it like you were just saying, it's cold calling. It is...
grind to make a sale and actually your product's human. So a lot of people in business, call their, usually you hear their people are, my biggest headache, which I think people are your superpower, but that's a whole different thing. I've seen some of your athletes, but did you struggle with some athletes who were top performing athletes to others? And because they're human, why do you think some sold,
Inverted commas better than others. Sure. Some resonate with the audience no different than I guess, well anyone, any natural communicator. If you've got an athlete who's also a natural communicator, that's a great skill to have. It's not easy to learn and often what we try and do is we do try and get an introvert who often
know, athletes, they're very focused, process focused. Swimmers, for example, they spend a lot of time looking at the black line. They tend to be introverts. We spend a lot of time bringing them out. And not in a way that's where they become unauthentic, but certainly in a way that they're comfortable of communicating to an audience. But at the same time, we're really careful about how we position them to a brand. We don't oversell them and sort of say they're going to be
something they're not. You're saying both? No, we don't do that because they're just going to get the athletes, first of all the athlete will never be able live up to that expectation and the brand will have an expectation it's too high and so the two will fail together. we can't have that. So in that situation we really manage the process of the brand and sort of say this is what you will get from this athlete.
And then it's yeah, it's a fitter if it's not a fit. But often we won't position an athlete if we don't think the brand is going to be right for them. I mean, I'll give you an example with Cathy Freeman back in the IMG days. Cathy was at her very, very best. And if you can imagine in 2000 when she was lighting the cauldron she was the number one 400-metre athlete in the world.
Wearing that one piece thing. It was extraordinary. She had so much pressure on her. And an amazing athlete. And I had the opportunity to do a run. One of the most special moments I've ever had ever was doing a one-on-one run around Centennial Park with Cathy Freeman. Just her and I, which was amazing. However, I digress. But at that time, IMG had
20 and 24 high-powered sponsorship sales executives out in the marketplace trying to position Cathy to brands. And it wasn't easy because she wasn't a natural communicator. those types of, we had to be very careful about who we positioned her to versus other athletes that you're very comfortable going out and presenting, so.
Yeah, interesting times. Different types of brands for different types of athletes, of course. Yeah, absolutely. And so you've got to have that skill set and that eye to know who to go to what and who would be a good fit for each other. So if we're talking about the value of an asset, if you're trying to sell a product or anything like that, this is something else you do in M5. You're founder, the CEO of M5 Management. It's been around for very many years in Australia here.
But something you're really good at, I don't think actually, I don't think I've seen anyone else really do it or even do it near as well as you, is you go in and evaluate a company, generally sports, but I think you could do it probably anywhere, of here's the value of your assets. Because no one actually appreciates the value of their assets, I think half the time. And you go, here's actually your value. Here's how you can position it. And then you even have an opportunity that you will go out in the market. And with all of your networks, which is very extensive, your black book would be amazing.
across Australia and go, this is a good fit like you were just talking about for the athletes. But here's a good fit and this isn't just humans now, this is organizations, sporting organizations, large events. what's some tips that you can put out there and tell the listeners here on how they can look at their products and their services or their events and how can they value them and get them to a place where they can go, okay, this is the sponsorship I could ask for all this is.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's our bread and butter. It's actually how we founded the business. We founded our business on our consultancy area into what we call Olympic sports and probably tier three down to tier five. And these are sports that really find it hard to fend for themselves and find their own money. They're heavily reliant on government funding and they've usually got a very, very, very busy general manager that's trying to be all things to everyone. then they've got to board their report too that are probably
pointing the finger and sort of saying, to go and find more sponsorship assets. We've got wonderful assets, why aren't you selling them to this general manager that certainly doesn't have the people within your organisation to make that happen and doesn't have the understanding of its own business to be able to position, to go to market. So it's pretty simple for us. We get engaged, we look at...
their inventory and predominantly we know that most sports are going to have they're going to have a grassroots asset, they're probably going to have an elite asset which is probably their Olympic sports, they're going to have a community asset where they've got their sport being taken out into the community and whether it's hockey or gymnastics or basketball they're out in the community doing things.
And they've probably also got some innovation sitting there as well. across the board, they have four to five different assets that they could potentially go to the marketplace with. So what we do is we recognize them for them. We then build some inventory around each one of them. We bundle them all together. And then we place a value against them and we benchmark that against other different properties that we know that have been sold in the marketplace. We create proposals for them.
We then go and talk to them about a bit of a hit list about who they can go to. And then it's really up to them. And this is where the sales process comes in because all that's really great, Kristina They're going have a really nice shiny proposal they can go to the marketplace with and it'll stack up. unless... Giving them a good hit list. Giving them a good hit list, but unless they can go out there and actively engage the corporates.
and this is where the sales process comes into it. If they're not engaging 20 to 30 businesses, cold calling, to sit in front of them and show them what they've got to sell, show them their assets, then all of that work is just an absolute waste of time because there's still a sales process required here.
And this is the biggest, this is the biggest, I'll sort of, it's a bit of a bug bear for me. This is the biggest issue our industry has in relation to where we sit as a business in relation to athlete managers, major sports, tier one sports. I'm talking about AFL, rugby, cricket, whoever they are, all the way down to tier five sports. The ability for those organizations to get into the marketplace.
And sell their wares is dying. it worries me. And it's one of the reasons why we created, we went to Griffith University in their sports management course and said, you're missing a very key element here. You're sending people out into the marketplace. You're creating this course. the most basic skill, and that is a business development skill, you're missing out on. And you need to address this.
every company, no matter what it is, sport or not, needs sales. So why is it that they don't hire salespeople? Well, I'll you an example. At one stage, and I'll give you an example of the RU, we would have, back in the game, the IMG days,
20, a national sales and marketing organisation with the entire responsibility and KPIs around selling sponsorship assets and our biggest client was the ARU
so we were so proud to be representing Rugby and we were out there on a week in week out to Corporate Australia.
selling rugby and doing a fantastic job. mean literally putting millions and dollars into rugby. Competitive pitches, Vodafone versus Telstra, Canterbury, the types of organisations that would come in and we could create some competitive tension around which as we know forces the market up was significant.
And they certainly benefited from that. But I think what happened is that a lot of these contracts were long-term contracts. And two years into these contracts, where they were getting multi-million dollars a year, you probably thought that they probably don't need IMG anymore. they could do this themselves. Because really there wasn't a great deal of selling required after these contracts were done, until such time as they expired.
and then the verbal shit at the fan didn't it? Because a lot of them expired at the same time. And at that stage, I don't think their business was ready to go back into the marketplace or had the skills to go back into the marketplace. To ask for multi-millions of dollars now and to show your value, you can't just say,
here's my event off you go. I feel like the activation of sponsorship is something people miss. So from back where I dabbled in sponsorship with a company and we would pay, we were on both sides, so we would pay to be a sponsor and we had some athletes as well, but it was the paying for the sponsorship and then it was
having in your budget to activate. the amount of times, and I've run events, so where I've sourced sponsorship and I've had to get people and show my assets and show my value and then people come along and they're like, well, we've paid you whatever it was, thousands of dollars and we're going set up our tent and magic should happen. And I'm like, or they don't even set up, or they give us a flyer.
And I'm like, you need to do more. I'm giving you my platform. But I'm not also going do that. But maybe is that a mistake if people want to get more sponsors into their event? Is that the secret sauce that they need to go, well, it's not just about going, hey, Phil, got a great event. It's this value. There's thousands of people you should sponsor, but it's also now you sponsor and here's how we're going roll it out. So the activation is two to one. So if you're spending,
If you're $50 on a sponsorship, you've to spend $50 on activation. So that's good for anyone listening. If you're going to sponsor, you've got to double your investment. Put the money aside. So if the asset's worth $50,000 and you really want that particular asset, but there's another asset that's worth $25,000 that can do the job but maybe not quite as sexy as the $50,000 mark, but you can actually activate, you're better off taking the
the opportunity, there's maybe a little bit less and being able to activate that opportunity rather than the one that sort of may look like it's better and it has more hospitality and more signage and all those types of sexy things but if you can't activate within there you're sort of wasting your Yeah
But here's the thing, Kristina, that's great. Activation's great, but if you can actually... Then watch your sales funnel. You've actually got to be able to get to the stage where you can sell an asset to Activate on. that would be great. Activation's wonderful, but the problem is... People won't even sell what they... We're not even getting to the stage where people can actually have the ability to actually sell a sponsorship asset at the moment, and that's our biggest gap.
And that's what we need to get, that's what we really need to get fixed. mean we've got, we've got Brisbane 32 Games coming up. It's so exciting, it's wonderful and we don't have people out in the marketplace. I mean I wrote a blog about this a while ago that the art of selling sponsorship is gone. It's, well it's going, hopefully it's not gone but it is, but it's unhealthy and we need to build some life back into it.
because the business is wonderful. It's a wonderful business to be involved in. But let's just look at this for a second. So if I'm lecturing at a university and we're lecturing with a sports management degree and we've created this new free elective around managing the principles of athletes, principal athlete management, and that's predominantly selling sponsorship.
What value, if I said to these guys and I sit down and go, okay, what value do you think you bring to an athlete? They'll put up their hand and sort of say, empathy. My understanding to be able to work with an athlete and being able to communicate with them, being there when they need me to be there.
being available 24-7. these wonderful things around being a nice person. Being their friend. Not business. You're not always friends in business. I go, that's really kind of cool. It is nice being that. That's the sexy part of the business. You to go to the footy games with them or give them a lift to a golf game or whatever. You sit up in the box where they're winning. Really, really exciting.
But you don't deserve to be there. You won't ever get into that spot unless you've actually driven a commercial outcome for them. Yeah, yeah. You've actually some money. only thing that you're offering them as a sponsorship manager is the ability to be able to wealth for them, to be able to create income for them. And negotiating a contract, a playing contract,
is not what we're talking about here because anyone can do that. If a rugby league team or an AFL team or a cook team, they've got a certain amount of money that they're going spend on an athlete, there's a little bit of negotiation required about It's gotta be given, isn't it? If they're that good, they're going take them, so you're just... They're going take them anyway. Yeah, you're just doing the fine-tuning. And then the athlete goes, what else are you doing for me? Because you've just taken 4 % of my income, what else are you going do?
and the athlete manager goes, this is where they get worried because they don't have a relationship with corporate Australia. They have a relationship with a list manager or a football manager, which is great. But that serves a purpose for around a couple of weeks in a year, maybe every three or four years, if they're long-term contracts, maybe even longer. But then what do they do? It comes back to, like you say, it's the art of selling, it's the art of sales.
interesting. I did enjoy, I must admit, my little dabble with athlete management. I really did enjoy it.
But let's talk about the athletes because we're on that with the athletes. So they've done it. Let's say you've got them the sponsorship. So there's two things. If you're super successful, you're actually setting them up for life because an athlete's longevity, an athlete's life cycle is short. Some can be very short But you've got people who have dedicated their life and they might be the cream of the crop for,
maybe 10 years or something and they're in the limelight, they've been feeling important but then their time's up and then bam they're done and they're retired. At 20 they're retired at 25 they're retired at 30 and then for a lot of people in the corporate world they just spend their whole life climbing this little ladder and off they go they hit 60 and I'm retired now but some people are retiring at 20 and 30 and then they don't know what to do. So how important is that?
as an athlete manager because I feel like that's where people can derail, that's where depression comes in. Yeah, no, it's massive. That whole mental health space around talent management is... I've been banging on this for a long, long time. When we have athletes in a bubble, a high-performance bubble for such a long period of time...
And once they come out of that bubble, they're so used to being directed in relation to what they do. So regimented, right? You get up and do this, you eat this. Sure. And what happens, Kristina, it doesn't matter if you're earning... It's worse, actually, if you're earning a lot of money, because then you have capacity to go and spend it and spend it unwisely, gamble it away. And we see a lot of that. We have the other end of the spectrum where you have athletes that have been in the Olympic system that probably haven't earned anything.
that all of a sudden get to 28, 32 years of age and have no ability to able to create wealth and they don't have a house to live in and they're starting labor again. at M5 we certainly don't get into that. We work very hard on transitioning our athletes. And that really goes from, we'll take an athlete as a
as a 16 to 18 year old, we have this philosophy called an athlete for life. And that's because that's how we, just because we call an athlete for life. Now that doesn't mean we hang on to our athletes for life because sometimes I'll go to another manager and we lose athletes for whatever reason. But we go into our vision, our principles is to have an athlete for life. And I still have athletes that we don't manage anymore that I still talk to and I still direct them and give them counselling in relation to what's next coming up in their life.
So we do really work hard on creating a transition piece from an athlete that's probably two to three years away from retirement and then we really start working on positioning them in relation to life after their sport. And that could be anything from them starting to just recognise the other things that they enjoy doing and just finding the other things that may interest them. And then we start sort of guiding them into those areas.
Is it an element to stepping out of the limelight because they might their importance was always based on Recognition and now of a sudden they're being recognized and they have to go. Let's call it with civilians Yeah, it's difficult that whole transition piece is really really hard and we but we get them ready for that Yeah, and we're not we're not psychologists But we sort of just get a good understanding about when we work with enough athletes and I've got to say it's no different for executives
We have an executive program at the moment where we introduce retiring executives into an Ironman. Now it sounds ridiculous, but if you just think about this for a second, just think about this for a second, you've got a 60 to 65 year old executive that has been very successful and they may have even been an athlete in their day, but they are about to transition into life after their corporate life.
Which is their identity. is everything for them. Everything for them. it is very difficult. It's no, they're going through exactly the same experience than what an athlete is going through. They're identical. Exactly the same. And we've created a program that's that, that because there's two things. Firstly, they're usually failing in health and they've, they, which isn't great. And secondly, they do need something to do. They really need something to do. And an Ironman.
is scary enough to go hey. Insane enough. Insane enough to go hey. And a lot of them will take that challenge on and we'll take them on that journey for 18 months. Yes. And it's kind of, and I'm digressing here, but it's literally from someone who hasn't run for five years to being able to do an Ironman in 18 months. And we've got good experience in that. So it's a very exciting program. love doing That's an excellent program. it and it's no different.
than a retiring athlete. And we have a lot of executives listening here. So that's something even different to think about where I know a lot of people go, I could never do an Ironman, but of course you can. Of course they can. Absolutely. You've got people doing it all the time. You join and if you get the right community around you. Because speaking of that, I was looking at all your stats and I'm sitting here next to a current world.
champion, world age grouper, one. Number one, but not a world champion. Number one ranked for a period of time. No, no, no, doesn't matter. Number one ranked world champion. Yes, yes, yes. I've got the Australian long course age champion. Yes. So when you're talking about,
going in and starting up and I know you might have been athletic at the bow but you've still done the same where you went okay I'm going to start training and then you kept training and then you're of course very highly competitive look at the world you've been in and you're like okay I'm going to podium, I'm going for age champion and lo and behold here you are and you've built such a great community around you. I see it online all the time and people are at all the ironmans and the triathlons and they're just loving it and you're using your sponsorships.
I'm seeing your teams are cool bikes and helmets and they've got... They've all spoiled. They're all very, very spoiled. There is no other executive team like this. let's go down that route. What is it scaring anyone from starting to the level you're at now because you've been training for so long? What's your training regime? It's ridiculous. But Kristina, I work within the industry. So I'm working when I'm training.
and I'm training when I'm working. It all just blends in. So I'm almost like a professional age grouper. But it still works. I mean, we don't switch off. It's just work. And I mean it, anyone can do an Ironman. We're talking Ironman here just in case someone was unsure. explain it? Yeah. So it's a 3.8 kilometre swim, it's 180 kilometre bike ride and it's a marathon. And you've got 17 hours to do it. So it's just tight. Hang on, 17 hours to do it? You've got 17 hours to get it done.
You've got 17. So you've got to go through hell and back for 17 hours and you will love life. Can I tell you, my favourite athlete is an athlete that we have in our executive program, her is Donna. And Donna has no right to be able to do an Ironman. And she did her first, she failed her first Ironman. She missed what they call the cut-off of the bike. She didn't get to the point of time on the bike that allowed her to go and do her marathon.
And then the following year, I could see how disappointed she was. So I said, OK, Donna, let's go and do this together. And we trained, and we trained together, and we taught her how to run. And she trained all through the winter. And she got to Ironman. And this is a funny story, but she was, I'd finished my race. I'd finished my race. And I was actually having a pizza and a beer with a client at the pub.
The was going, the run was going straight past the pub. So I was keeping an eye on my clients at the same time. We had a few in the race. And it was around the 13 hour mark and I saw Donna running past and I looked at my watch and I thought, she's not going make it. So I went back out on the course and I did the entire lap with her.
So I first finished my race, I did another 11 kilometres. Pizza and beer under your belt. And I walked her, she made it by a minute and a half. It was amazing. It was just one of the most wonderful experiences I've ever had. mean I've been dealing with elite athletes all my life, world champions, you know, but to have, to share that type of experience with someone that I trained with and to get her across the line in that way was just...
Terrific. So anyone can do an ironman But what's important there is everyone needs to find their cheer squad and their cheerleaders. Because everyone's got cheerleaders and if you feel like you don't in your life and you're like there are people out there in the communities out there that...
are your people and just like that you got her over a minute that's all you need to do she's got the she's got she's got the tattoo she's got the she's got the ironman tattoo on her calf love it she's got that she did it right i mean credit i couldn't i couldn't finish that right now i'd have to do some serious serious serious dedication and training my gosh if that it's a wonderful community and i'm i'm just blessed that i can share that at the very least end with
I manage a couple of athletes that are trying to be World Ironman Champions professionally and then all the way down to someone like Donna. So it's wonderful to able to share those types of Do you only take in your executive group? Do they have to be Queensland based? No, No, it's remote. Yeah, It can be anywhere. Because the events are like nationally and globally. So you all meet at the events anyway and you might do training camps or so. Most of this is about communication.
Kristina I mean anyone can write a program. Programs are the easy part. It's really getting them to do the work and that's often about life balance and confidence and chatting and working and workshopping some issues they may have and dealing with injuries and setbacks and all these types of things that...
That happens in business, right? You just need someone to pick you back up. It's resilience. It's resilience. And this is what Donna showed. Resilience. She didn't make it the first time. Anyone who's just been training as long as she has and didn't make it would be, is you would feel like it's okay that if you just gave up and oh, well, I gave it a crack. Wasn't for me. And she's like, no, okay. Dust herself off. Let's get it. Let's go and get it. And now she has the tattoo.
I know if I'd ever get a tattoo. I know. I'm not a big guy. I've done, I've done, I've about done my sevententh iron man. And I don't have a tattoo. And I'll never get a tattoo. But I love the fact that she has one. Yeah. I do. I love that.
Oh, amazing. Well, Phil, this has been an honor. It's been so much fun. I mean, I have known you for quite a long time. Are we going tell a story about it? you tell a story? We can tell the story. This is you being your best. This is you leaving no stones unturned. This is true. This is And taking an opportunity when it comes your way.
I I did. It is one of the funniest stories. So I was working as the Ops Manager Young in cycling Queensland, but I always had an obsession for IMG. Whatever reason, I always did that no matter what. When I was looking for a degree, when I was looking for a job, I'd hone in on a company or an environment, but it was a company and IMG was one. And I was so focused, but for the life of me, I could not work out how to get in contact with the Gold Coast.
because it kept going to head office and no one would pass it on and I couldn't get in. And then I'm in my office, it's late and I get a phone call in cycling Queensland and I'm running, I think it's the state championships. And I get a phone call and it's from another cyclist who's trying to get a late entry because I've closed entries, I've already done grading. You've been efficient, you've done your job really done everything and I get another phone call going, I'd like to get an entry in.
Now, I was well in my rights to say no, but I never did that because I knew it was just a little bit of inconvenience for me to add you in and put you in and I liked everyone having a go. So I said, yes, okay, I can do that for you. And there's so many sliding doors here. I just think the universe works in magical ways because I could have looked you up in the system one, which would have just had your personal email. So that's a pivotal part in the story because I could have done that. But instead I said, actually just give me your name and you gave it. And then I said,
just give me your email and I dead set remember all of this because you go it's Phil whatever you were saying and then you said actually I'll give you my work one whatever reason you decide to do that because that's not what was in our system and you said phil at imgworld.com and I nearly dropped the nearly dropped the phone because I'm like
my god, and I'm pretty sure my unfiltered version was like, my god, what do you do? Yeah, shoot. Like, I wasn't even casual about it. I was just, what do you do? And then you said you were the general manager and then I really dropped the phone and I was like, can I meet you? We're having coffee. Yeah. Like a week after. But in credit to you too, that you said yes. Of course. So I was like, my god, you work for IMG, you're the general manager.
Yeah, that's cool.
And we had coffee and then, you know, we just hit it off and from there and do you know what? Back then, even your like your mentorship back then, because we were talking about jobs. I believe there was a job that was coming up, which you said maybe. But even then you were like, it's not the right one. Don't do it. And I remember that because I would have done whatever you said to get in and you're like, actually don't. And it was all meant to be because then IMG changed and went out to Sydney and everything changed and M5 started and we kept a friendship. Yeah, It's very cool.
Very cool sliding doors moment actually where was just everything aligned and then it's been yeah It's been wonderful and there's been so many synergies throughout whole life, We're still going. We're still good. So it pays to ask. It does. It pays to ask. It pays to actually... Be inquisitive.
Your curiosity is such a wonderful skill to have. It's the key but also go out of your way a bit I'm always for breaking some rules But if I had to said no because I didn't want to do some extra work. Yeah. Yeah, I never would have known. it's You had to said no because you're like how inconvenient. Yeah, we never and so it just pays to say yes. Yes Yeah, so true. So true. Well done everything you're doing. It's great
Keep going. Yeah, no, it's good. I love it. I love seeing what you're doing. It's terrific. You're making a difference. I love watching your podcast. Thank I love all the people you're interviewing. I love learning from them. We're all just doing our best and we're all trying to learn. every time you put something up, spend my time, have a good listen, have a good watch.
and take away a one percenter of something. It's always something to learn. That's the goal in transforming the game. It's about people who have excelled or done something or just passionate about what they do and how you can pay that forward. I'm thinking about paying it forward. How can you pay it forward? You know, I actually think big out of this will be the executive side who are looking for that transition and then the athlete side too. So maybe there's some budding young kids out there going, you know, they're in this bubble of sport.
you're not alone. There's lots of different avenues out there. Reach out to M5 and even ask for advice. and credit where credit's due. The industry has really moved in relation to that mental health space and they're wrapping their arms around their athletes. They're not just box ticking anymore. There's some really good stuff that's happening which is really important so I'm very pleased about that. I love it.
Thank you, thank you very much, it's been a pleasure. Thanks guys. Wonderful. Awesome.