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This week I talk to Rabbi Jill Avrin, the founder of YourJewish. We talk about her transition from pulpit rabbi to non-profit founding director, Packers Football, and YourJewish being a part of TC Jewfolk’s Sukkot Giving on November 3, on this week’s Who The Folk?! Podcast.Sukkot Giving: https://bit.ly/sukkot-givingYourJewish: https://yourjewish.orgThe Who The Folk?! Podcast is part of the Jewfolk Podcast Network, a product of Jewfolk, Inc. Episodes are produced by Jewfolk editor-in-chief Lonny Goldsmith. If you have questions, comments, or a guest to nominate, send an e-mail to editor@jewfolk.com. For more information, go to TCJewfolk.com/podcast
This is the Podcast home of TC Jewfolk's Who The Folk?! Podcast. Hear from interesting Members of the Tribe from all over the Minneapolis and St. Paul area.
This week's episode is brought to you by SukkotGiving, TC Jewfolk's fall event on Sunday
November 3rd from 5 to 7 pm at Beth El Synagogue.
This event is a beautiful and delicious celebration of the American Jewish experience, and nothing
says American Jewish experience more to us than the all-too-familiar juggling we do in
the moments between the high holidays and Thanksgiving.
The beauty and crossover of Fall, The Harvest, and the Focus on Gratitude isn't lost
on us.
This is going to be a beautiful evening with a gorgeous catered kosher vegetarian and
dairy fall meal, live music with the Long Honeymoon, a grounding moment with rabbi Jill Avrin
from your Jewish, small gifts for any children present from PJ library, in a meaningful
moment and gift for all in attendance with local artist Robyn Awend.
It is going to be a delight.
Tickets are on sale now, so to learn more and get your tickets, go to bit.ly/sukkotgiving.
That's bit.ly/sukkotgiving to get your tickets today.
Welcome to this week's Who the Folk?! Podcast.
I'm Lonny Goldsmith, the editor of TC Jewfolk.
This week I talk to rabbi Jill Avrin, the founder of your Jewish.
We talk about her transition from pulpit rabbi to non-profit founding director, Green Bay
Packers football, and your Jewish being part TC Jewfolk's Sukkotgivng on November 3rd
on this week's Who the Folk Podcast.
Rabbi Jill Avrin, welcome to The Who the Folk Podcast.
Thank you for joining me.
Thanks so much for having me.
So it feels a little weird to have you on the podcast.
In part because in the course of this job, I've gotten to know you and we've talked dozens
of times over the years I've done this job.
But in the last 12 or so months, there's been a bit of a career transition for you, which
I think now that you've had about a year or so of YourJewish being up and running.
Feels like a great time to talk about it.
So for starters, tell us what YourJewish is.
Thanks so much for starting with this and giving me an opportunity to talk a little bit
about what I'm doing.
YourJewish was really born from the way that I started my rabbinic journey, I grew up in
an unaffiliated home.
And for me, when I was a kid, Judaism really was only holidays, family, and that's pretty much
it.
And my path to the rabbit started in BBYO when that was my first introduction to the formal
Jewish community.
And immediately I felt on the margins, like I was an outsider, people would ask me like,
what synagogue do you belong to?
And I wouldn't have an answer for that.
And at the time, the way I handled that was by leaning in and putting, like putting myself
in the center of the Jewish community.
So I did all the things camp, youth group, like I did it all.
I chose to become a immersed and ended up in the in crowd by choice.
But always sort of held on to the real pain that I experienced at the beginning of feeling
like I was on the outside or I wasn't fully accepted because my family didn't belong
to a synagogue.
And that was always sort of in the back of my mind throughout my rabbinic journey.
So even in my 10 years at BBYO I was always thinking like who's not here?
Who are the people who, like, okay, this is amazing that we have 250 kids and look at this
program, 80 people showed up.
But what about the thousands of people who didn't come?
What about the people who were like me growing up who had an inner faith home, unaffiliated,
like where are those people?
And eventually I decided like the time, the time is, you know, if not now when.
And I was ready to take that leap professionally in my career and decided that, you know, this
is really a gap in the Twin Cities where there are a lot of people who are in unaffiliated
homes who care about their Jewish identity but don't yet have haven't yet found the right
way to express it.
And so your Jewish seeks to be an answer to that problem, to try to find ways to provide
for people who are currently unengaged or under-engaged, more independent options outside of institutional
buildings and history and trauma that some people have.
And to try something new, creative, public space, Judaism, and independent ritual.
One of the things that I found really interesting is that there is a perception, I think, at least
it's a perception I had.
And it turns out it was not at all correct.
But for a while in this job, this perception of the Twin Cities being this highly affiliated
community.
And then the most recent, and again at this point it's five years old, but the most recent
population study comes out and it turns out we're not at all that.
In fact, there are these vast majority of people that you speak of who are on the margins
who are outside of the mainstream, some by choice because they just don't want necessarily
anything to do with the Jewish community for whatever their reasons may be or because
they haven't found the right option.
That's for them so they've just stayed away in their own corner of the Twin Cities.
That's is that the kind of thing that you encountered in the sort of ramp up to your Jewish?
Yeah, absolutely.
When that study came out, I'm a huge data nerd and I read the whole thing, covered a cover.
And as I was reading it, it was like, I was like, how are we not like jumping out of our
seats about the data that was in this report?
I think initially there were people who saw that report and said, oh wow, look at how much
the Jewish community has grown in the last 20 years.
And then everybody was like, well, wait a minute, actually maybe we just didn't have the
right data to begin with.
And it's not necessarily like, there are all these new Jews in the Twin Cities.
There are, but we haven't necessarily known how to capture all of the folks who are unaffiliated.
Back in 2000, the early 2000s, the last time there was a population study.
And so I think that the fact that there are potentially 80,000 people living in Jewish
households in the Twin Cities is mind blowing.
And just the number of people who are out there who don't affiliate, we need to do something
about it.
It's funny, the way you sort of phrase that of people look at, oh, there's all these new
Jews.
And there isn't though, but some of the struggle I had with sort of understanding the numbers
comes from the differences in methodology.
And it's again, very data nerdy, but in terms of how people were, how they were found, where
they lived.
The last time it was Hennepin Ramsey and Dakota counties, now you're looking at the full
seven county metro.
So those people were probably always there.
But how do you reach them is the, yeah, that's always been sort of the, I mean, unless
it's the 64,000 dollar question, right?
So starting up your Jewish, how do you look at that question and try to figure out the, how
do you find and how do you bring them into something Jewish?
Yeah, it's, I mean, like you said, that's a million dollar question.
You know, if everyone had the answer to this, then we wouldn't be in a different place
as a community.
But I also think that we haven't as a, you know, a formal Jewish community.
I don't think we have quite put in the effort that we could have and we haven't quite explored
our creativity to the best, to, you know, the best extent that we could.
And I'll give one example.
I don't think there is one answer, first of all.
And one answer, I think is, you know, word of mouth and networking and sort of that like grassroots
organizing, like, who do you know?
And, you know, that's one of the ways that I have been finding people is just, oh, you
should talk to my cousin or, you know, and truly, like that has been one of the highest,
you know, means of getting new folks.
But I'm going to give one other example of something I actually did yesterday that I'm
in the process of writing about is I had a booth at a festival.
I saw the pictures of the set up, so talk about it.
It was a vegan festival in St. Paul.
I don't know exactly how many people were there.
They say 5,000.
But either way, you know, I set up a booth in a festival, sold hollah and rugelach and taught
hollah, braiding and had us sort of like ask the rabbi poster.
And it really was like the classic version of outreach, like being in the public domain
and advertising Judaism.
Yes.
And sort of like seeing what happens.
It's so incredibly, so incredibly analog in a digital world.
Yeah, exactly.
And honestly, I, it seems so, I don't know how to characterize it, but I'm telling you that
like over the course of like the six hours of the festival, I haven't counted.
I don't have like all of my data, but at least 15 people who came and introduced themselves
to me, who are exactly this target demographic.
People who are living in Jewish households who don't belong to synagogues, who, oh my, you
know, my dad was Jewish, but I didn't, you know, sort of people who grew up like me, like,
oh, I celebrate Hanukkah and Passover Jews.
Or people, you know, I met, and Israeli, I met, a Russian Jew, you know, all these people
who, you know, people who are new to the Twin Cities.
And, you know, it's sort of like one of the, now granted, this isn't thousands of people.
Like I just said, it was maybe 15, but those are people who aren't, they're not getting,
they're not on like the Jew folk listserv.
They're not on the Federation listserv.
Like, they are the people who we know other Jewish institution has yet been able to find
them.
And again, it's not in mass, but again, like right now, there really aren't that in my, at
least that I'm aware of. There are not a lot of efforts from other Jewish institutions,
synagogues, organizations to sort of plant themselves in the public sphere and sort of
like try to literally meet people where they are.
Hobad is doing a bit of that work.
Yeah.
But it's a different expression of Judaism.
For sure.
So it was the saying, like the journey of a hundred miles starts with a single step.
Yes, exactly.
Something that I'm pushing it badly.
Yes, that is, that's it.
It is the getting out and it's the, you know, as close to, you know, retail, I guess,
retail, it's going to say retail politics, but retail Judaism as there is is the meeting
people out in the world and saying, I am a rabbi.
Let's talk.
Setting up shop like in the public domain.
Yeah.
And sort of literally in the public square.
Exactly.
Exactly.
So you grew up in Milwaukee?
I grew up in the northern suburbs of Milwaukee.
Okay.
So correct.
You not growing up sort of immersed in the Jewish community until you self selected in.
Yeah.
Basically, that's quite a journey from an affiliated, unconnected to deciding to go to
Revenek School.
Right.
What was the path that led you there?
Well, I mean, I was one of these people who, you know, I often describe some of my teenage
years like my form of teenage rebellion was like leaning into religion.
So early on, we had very different, very different.
I have that rebellion spirit, but it is maybe not in the typical fashion.
Fair enough.
Fair enough.
And so in many ways, like early on, like when I was a freshman in high school, like the seed
was already planted.
And I, you know, thought like that, you know, I'm going to be a Jewish professional.
Maybe I'll be a rabbi.
Maybe I'll be a camp director, but like I, I just was all in from like month one.
Okay.
And like I said, like put myself on that, on that journey and sort of force myself into
the in crowd.
Not growing up with that again, I don't know what would be considered classically Jewish
anymore.
I think, I think of it through my own lens of growing up in Judaism, but not growing up sort
of in that kind of Jewish way.
What was sort of your examples of how to go from A to B?
Like where did, what did you lean into?
Yeah.
I think that because for me, the formative years were my teen years, I was so, I, you know,
I really relied on sort of the organization, like the BBYO, the camp network, sort of like
my friend, peer network, and took advantage of those relationships.
But I think, you know, the key takeaway for me over and over again was like how deeply
I learned like it's, it's like who you know, not what you know.
Like I could, you know, teach myself Hebrew, but it didn't really matter if I didn't know
anybody else who was Jewish.
And so it's like you have, like the answer was like networking.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I feel like that is a way more, I mean, it's more intentional.
But also like I think it helps plant the roots.
Right.
A little bit stronger.
I mean, like my own background, I was a day school kid growing up Detroit.
And I think by the time I certainly burn bits of it, but even maybe by the time I was, you
know, graduated eighth grade and moved on to public school, I was kind of checked out for
a little while.
Right.
It's like burnout because it's just so, so much of it and it's so in your face all the
time.
Mom, if you're listening, sorry.
But it's, it's, you came back.
I'm back.
I'm here.
It's, but it's, it's an interest, I think it's just an interesting path.
It is a great example of there are multiple paths to get to, right.
Get to a, you know, end goal.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And I think a lot of people who convert to Judaism, I've heard have had sort of like similar
experiences that I have, aware where it's like people say, oh, you grew up in Milwaukee.
Like, do you know this rabbi?
You know, or like, oh, what camp did you go to?
So I think that there are some, you know, for people who didn't go to day school or didn't
go to camp, you know, I think that there, you know, there's a different path.
But, but now, like, I think what we're starting to see all these years later is when you look
at the data, it's like, I used to think of myself as being in the minority, but actually
from like a data perspective, I was the majority.
And, and I think that's something that I hope that, you know, the, that Jewish professionals
will start to sort of like flip, you know, in their understanding as well that, you know,
there are so it's actually the majority experience, not to be one of those kids.
Right.
And I think we, I think most people in sort of the, I consider, Jufo can what I do sort
of in the non-traditional Jewish professional space, but I think so many people in the very,
you know, mainstream Jewish professional space, look at it through the lens of the, they,
look at their experiences, the mainstream Jewish experience.
Right.
That's right.
And that's probably not the case.
Yeah.
It's, it's not.
And I think that that's something that like, Jufo understands as well, like that it's,
that we need to find other ways to reach people, you know, other than just the, the day
school, the camp, the synagogue.
Right.
And that's how it, I mean, again, it sort of goes back to the, the challenge of what you're
trying to start up with your Jewish is how do, like, where do you go to meet the people?
How do you, and it's also can be very, it's a difficult time to publicly put yourself
out there as Jewish in the public space.
Yeah.
It can be scary to be publicly Jewish right now.
Yeah.
It can be.
And I even had a little bit of that yesterday.
Like, I didn't have, it, it, for me, it actually was only a positive experience.
Right.
But certainly across my mind, you know, like that I'm putting up this huge banner that says
your Jewish in a space that, you know, the demographics of people who attend to vegan
festival tend to be, you know, more on the progressive lens.
And so, you know, it definitely made me a little bit nervous to be that sort of outwardly
Jewish, but I, you know, I really believe in it and I, I didn't have any issue.
I mean, the only time that people that, that Israel even came up were from other Jews being
who, who are like, are you okay?
Did anyone, has anyone harassed you?
And I'm like, no, they haven't.
Nice to have people looking out for you.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
What's the transition been like?
I think obviously I think people, when people think of rabbis, they think of being on
the pulpit, right?
Kind of synagogue, and there's obviously plenty of, there's education, there's camp, there's
like all the other kinds of rabbis that you mentioned.
What's the transition been like for you to go from pulpit rabbi?
You were at Betulum for 10 years?
Ten years, yeah.
To go from that to this brand new startup is obviously an incredibly intense kind of thing.
What's that been like?
There are so many mixed emotions and ways of describing the transition.
So there's no one path on the one hand, from a personal dimension, my work-life balance
has dramatically improved.
And we were just chatting about that a little bit before we started, but to be able to be
in control of my schedule with three kids is pretty transformational.
And the demands on pulpit rabbis are immense in terms of scheduling and not to say I'm not
still putting in long hours and working nights and weekends because I am, but I'm in control
of my schedule and I'm not working every Friday night, Saturday morning, Sunday morning,
Wednesday night.
And so from a, a ballot, just a life balance perspective, it's
been just like transformational.
And so I couldn't be happier.
And professionally too, I feel like I'm more honed in on the work that I'm doing as opposed
to the life of a pulpit rabbi is just like you're literally doing everything.
And now I have a more, I'm energized by this particular mission that I'm on.
And so I feel, you know, like after 10 years, like I had some burnout and now I feel like
I have that spark back of like trying to do something unique and different and creative.
I definitely have had a share of people who have said like, oh, how does it feel not to
be a rabbi anymore?
And I'm like, wait a minute.
I'm so much, so much.
So there's definitely that, you know, perception, I think, from the broader community of like,
you know, what a rabbi is and what they do.
So because I obviously feel like I am doing reibinic work.
Absolutely.
Right.
And that's the thing.
I think people, again, it goes back to people's framings, right?
And their framing of the rabbi is, you know, lead minion twice a week.
You have Shabbat services Friday nights, Saturday morning, and that's an officiate weddings
and funerals.
Right.
That's it.
So I know that rabbi, pulp it rabbis do more than that.
A lot of people don't.
Like, what do you do Monday to Thursday?
And it's like, you know, so I think that, you know, hopefully over time that will change.
Yes.
No, absolutely.
So not being a disintegrate guy anymore, although you're still a rabbi, you don't have the
typical, you know, fall, you know, late summer early fall stress that comes with preparing
for the high holidays, writing sermons, leading services, all that.
Right.
What's that?
I mean, this is your second, second high holiday cycle in that mode.
What's it been like to not have to sweat the same way you used to?
Yeah.
It's, again, it's mixed because, you know, it's nice to, I still have stress, but it's
different stress because I'm still, you know, it's still sort of like the falls when
you launch programs.
Sure.
So I have like that start of the year stress, but it's not that like specific.
Mostly sermon writing is, you know, like the big weight, I think that I used to feel, you
know, as a pulpit rabbi.
And, you know, it's mixed because on the one hand, it's, again, like nice to have a little
more balance in my life and to be focusing on different things.
On the other hand, you know, I, there are definitely a lot of things that I miss about
being in a congregation.
Sure.
And I loved giving sermons.
It's something I really enjoyed doing.
And so there's definitely a bit of loss there that I don't have, you know, sort of this,
like, default crowd of like hundreds of folks who are in attendance, who I get to, you
know, speak, you know, speak to, and so that definitely is a bit of a loss.
That being said, I have replaced, replaced that with other types of work and trying to say,
you know, like there's, there are other ways to celebrate the holidays other than attending
a worship service.
And so decided that I would lean in to trying to provide those opportunities for folks
who are, who are looking for something different.
And that was meaningful as well.
So speaking of something different, you are going to be involved in JuFuOx First Fall fundraiser
event we are doing called Sukot Giving.
It is a, the fall themed harvest type communal event that our executive director, Livy Parker,
has dreamed about doing in some version for a long time.
It is coming up November 3rd at Bethel Senegog and you are going to be a big part of that.
What is your plan for those of us in attendance that evening?
I am so excited about this event.
I think it's so creative and that's why I was super honored to be asked to participate.
So thank you.
I just think it's a really beautiful way to sort of combine, you know, different aspects of
our identities.
So sort of being framed of like, where is the overlap between our Jewish and American
identities and how can we like lift that up and celebrate like the Venn diagram of like
Sukot and Thanksgiving and like, where do they overlap and where can we sort of like lift
up those shared values and traditions.
And I think, you know,
so that on like as a concept, I think it's brilliant.
Yes.
And on a more sort of concrete level, I think that I know I personally, I, falls my favorite
season.
Okay.
You know, for lots of different reasons, the weather, football, you know, there's a lot
of reason, the start of the new year.
And I think that this event is going to be a beautiful way to sort of like celebrate fall.
So through Jewish tradition, but then also like the American traditions, but I think leaning
into the harvest, the idea of like offering gratitude and gathering, like gathering together
to celebrate the harvest.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it has been, so as we're recording this, it's technically fall has been for two days.
Yeah.
You're already in your, it's already sweater weather.
It's sweater weather as of two days ago.
As of two days ago.
Yeah.
So you do love the fall.
All in, I'm all in for the fall weather and the Packers and that's right.
Go Packo.
No.
You can edit that out.
No, I'm not going to edit this out.
I'm just saying as a Lions fan, I'm not standing for that at all.
Yeah.
Well, we'll see what happens this year.
Yeah.
Listen, it'll be great.
Lions, like, and Packers, it'll be, yeah.
Yes.
More competitive football is enjoyable.
It's always enjoyable.
We'll take that.
So I did get a kick speaking of the Packers.
You posted on Facebook recently, you are now under 10,000th in line for tickets on the
wait list.
Right.
A wait list for you that started when you met on the fly here 27 years ago.
It was.
Wow.
You're doing the math that I haven't actually done since 1997.
1997.
But 27 years ago.
So yeah.
So I, um, yeah, I mean, I was in middle school.
Well, you got yourself on a season, you're wasting middle school.
Correct.
That's amazing.
It was.
Pack, Pack of fans are hurtful.
I went on the wait list the day after the Packers won the Super Bowl that year.
So I was so excited about, you know, like that was my before that.
It's a formative year.
Yeah.
You know, you're in middle school.
The Packers win the Super Bowl.
Sure.
And I wanted to get myself on that list and signed up myself.
Got a letter in the mail, you know, to my parents house.
Oh, my God.
Um, I'm now at that time, I was over 30,000 on the list in 1997.
I'm now 27 years.
Is that what we said?
27.
It'll be 20.
It'll be 28 years, January.
Okay.
Yeah.
28 years later, I'm under 10,000.
And from what I hear, I don't know the exact number.
We probably could Google it.
But if you, a lot of my friends have put their children on the list when they were born.
Okay.
So from what I've heard, if you go on the list today, it's over 150,000.
Now it could be even more than that.
I don't know exactly what it is, but there's no chance.
I mean, no chance.
There's a, I mean, there's, there's got to be a joke in there about there being just nothing
else to do and agree.
I'm not going to make that joke.
But somebody might, I did read that there are more people on the list than there are residents
of the city of Green Bay.
Yeah.
So there's something there.
That is wild.
Right.
But so fun fact, we ran into each other at a Minnesota United game recently as we're recording
this and we were talking about soccer culture.
There is something very European soccer culture about Green Bay soccer football in that
you're, that fandom is that fandom and community.
And sort of time, place, space is very meaningful in that way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
God, that's wild.
Yeah.
Before we end, you mentioned you've done the Chalabaking for the Twin Cities at the vegan
festival that happened in September.
You did a weekly chalabrating by Torah portion.
Right.
What was the genesis of that?
Because like as somebody who's, you know, a friend's on Facebook, really enjoyed watching
your interpretation and the thoughtfulness that went into it each week.
What got you started on that path?
Yeah.
Well, it started.
That was a pandemic project.
Okay.
So I had baked Hala before the pandemic, but only, you know, like sporadically.
And it was during the pandemic that I became, you know, one of the, like so many other people.
Sure.
And then, I started for the first time, was home on Fridays.
And so I started to, you know, develop a Hala baking practice toward the beginning of the
pandemic.
Okay.
And then, you know, I, I believe it was like a year and a half in in 2021 is when I started
it with the new Torah reading cycle in the fall of just sort of bringing together, you
know, I started to do a handful of these, like, sort of like artistic halas and then giving
my rabbinic interpretation on it.
And just, you know, sort of over time thought like this is something that could be like a fun
creative way to bring out my different passions for baking for art.
Like I, I think of myself as like an amateur artist.
And then my, you know, profession and rabbinic perspective on, you know, providing commentary
on the weekly portion.
So it was a really fun project.
I did it two full years.
I want to do it.
I'm, I'm thinking about like, what is the next iteration?
Yeah.
I thought about maybe doing Haftara, which I don't know, we'll see.
Whoa.
But I'm ready to take it in a, in a new direction.
And I still love doing it.
But I need, I'm ready for like, okay, what's next with this project?
Oh, that's awesome.
So we'll keep an eye on where that goes.
And with that last couple of questions, we'll get you out of here.
First, what is your favorite Jewish holiday?
Well, it's actually Sukot.
Is it really?
So that was not like a pre, you know, that's amazing.
Yeah.
Sukot's my favorite holiday.
And I love fall as I already shared.
And, you know, hosting.
I like to host.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
And what's your favorite Jewish food?
Wow.
This is a hard one.
You always end up in a real tough one.
I will, it's hard for me not to say "Hala."
Like how can I not say that?
But I think I'm going to say, I'll leave that aside.
I think just Matsubal soup, classic.
Anyone's in particular?
I like like a fluffy, more fluffy version of Matsubal soup.
I love cats'.
Okay, sure.
New York.
New York.
Excellent choice.
Yeah.
Rabbi Jill Avrin, thank you so much for talking with us about your Jewish and we look
forward to hearing what you have in store for us at Sukot giving at Bethel on November 3rd.
Thank you so much for joining me.
Thanks so much for having me on.
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