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Art of Spousing is for marriages that what to move from being mundane to becoming masterpiece relationships. Hosts James and Lisa Duvall share truths and lessons learned from their 30 years of marriage and over a decade of teaching, coaching, and speaking on marriage.
James: Hey, today we're diving into a subject that affects every marriage at some point is called liminality.
Lisa: Liminality is a big word with a simple meaning. It's about those in between seasons of life when you're not where you used to be, but you're not quite sure where you're going yet.
If you're feeling stuck, uncertain, or in transition in your marriage, this episode's for you.
James: Yeah, we've definitely had our fair share of liminal seasons, and we're going to share some of those with you as we unpack this idea of how it relates to marriage, plus we'll give you practical ways to navigate those seasons with intention and grace. Lisa, before we get into today's topic, I thought we could take a minute to give the history behind are the spousing, especially for those who may be new to the show.
Lisa: I love it. So since our kids became more independent, we began getting away to what we call just the two of us trips. Actually, we just came back from a just the two of us
James: It was awesome.
Lisa: Yep. This trip is not for us to crank through a bunch of activities, sightseeing although we may swim with a well shark or two.
James: That's true. We actually have pictures of that.
Lisa: Yep. And it was one of my best excursions ever. And you're so proud of me because I was brave.
James: That's right. You
Lisa: right. it's a time to relax. It's time to slow down enough to enjoy each other, read or maybe not read, and do a lot of dreaming together.
so in 2017 on our, just the two of us trip, we were processing marriages that we had encountered while serving in the marriage space and just even over our lifetime, other inspired marriages that we're surrounded by, and we came up with this idea.
Of the art of spousing it originally started as a book idea We began mapping out all kinds of ideas and concepts that we learned by living out in our married life Serving other married couples and watching other married people that we were inspired and encouraged by to invest in our relationship for it to be strong
James: right. One of those things we learned is now an underpinning for our the spousing is that marriage is as much art as it is science. It's a fact that there are some universal principles or techniques that have followed will produce a healthy marriage. But it's the execution of those principles by the artist, the husband and wife, right?
That make each marriage a unique piece of art.
Lisa: Because we know like an artist, we need to continually develop our craft as husband or wife. We need to continue to practice at getting better in our relationship. Art of spousing.
James: Hey everyone, we're thrilled to share something new with you today.
Lisa: coaching
James: coaching program, The Collective, starting January 2025.
Lisa: way to grow in your marriage intentionally, this is it. Each month, we focus on a different theme, like managing conflict with grace, creating shared goals, or adding creativity to your date nights, and so much more.
That's right. We'll
James: right. And we'll guide you through it all with teaching videos, live community calls and weekly challenges. Plus you'll get to connect with other couples on the same journey. It's like having a personal marriage coach and a supportive community right by your side.
Lisa: And let's not forget the guest experts we'll be having we're bringing in some amazing people to share insights on everything from finances to mental health and marriage
James: and we've made it flexible with different tiers to fit your needs and budget. So whether you're looking for just the monthly content or you want hands on coaching, we've got an option for you.
Lisa: for But here's the thing. We need you to register by December 1st.
The collective starts January 2025. So head on over to Art of Spousing dot com to grab your spot. We'd love to see you in the collective and start this journey with you. so we're talking about liminality in marriage. Yeah,
so let's jump in and break this down a bit. Liminality comes from the Latin word, you say it James,
James: It sounds
Lisa: it sounds like it's spelled like L E M O N like a lemon, but it's.
James: limen.
Lisa: Linen. Linen. Which means threshold. Think of it as standing in a doorway between two rooms. You've left one space behind, but you're not fully settled into the next.
It can be exciting, but a little unsettling.
James: in marriage we face many liminal seasons.
maybe you're newly married and adjusting to the shared life together. That's a little awkward at times, right? Or you've just become parents and everything feels different. You've been invaded by this tiny alien in your house and you're trying to figure things out, right?
there's also the transition to empty nest, which is where we're at right now, or even facing career changes and retirement, or like us, you're now taking on the role of caregiver for an aging parent. these are all different kinds of liminal spaces.
Lisa: here's the good news.
Liminality can be a time of tremendous growth, but that growth doesn't always feel comfortable, and I would say amen to that. It often brings like this sense of uncertainty, like the ground is shifting beneath your feet.
James: Lisa, one of the analogies where we're talking about liminality that you share with me is that it can feel like you're stepping out on a tightrope between two ledges.
Yeah. No longer, and not yet, right? You can't turn back to what was. And there's actually uncertainty of what it's going to be like when you get hit to the other side of the tightrope.
Lisa: tightrope. Yeah, and actually visualizing that it feels pretty scary. It feels unsettling, unstable. So it's true. But here's the beauty. These spaces can be opportunities for incredible transformation in your relationship if you lean into them with intention.
So
James: we've experienced a lot of liminal spaces in our marriage. The most recent one we shared about in our last episode was when we transitioned to becoming empty nesters, or at least we thought we were going to be empty nesters, right?
Lisa: that's right. That was such a liminal time. Addie was about to leave.
She hadn't left. She did leave and we prepared for this new season of freedom only to find ourselves stepping into a different role when my mom moved in with us. So we were literally in the middle of the tightrope. Yeah.
We were in this in between space, neither fully empty nesters nor caregivers in the way we expected it. It was challenging and honestly, it was disorienting.
James: disorienting. We had to navigate a lot of changes during the season. Our rhythms, our schedules, even how we related each other.
It all had to shift. But in the midst of that uncertainty, we found this new way to connect and deepen our relationship. And that's the power of liminal spaces. They can be refining and also redefining, right?
Lisa: Yeah. Cause when we came into this word, it gave language to what we were experiencing. It wasn't easy, but looking back, that season brought us closer, made us more intentional in our marriage.
And that's what we want to encourage everyone listening with today. So let's
James: So let's go ahead and get into how to navigate these liminal spaces in marriage. The first thing to remember is to acknowledge the transition, recognizing that you're in the liminal space can be a real game changer. it really helps you realize that feeling unsettled is actually normal.
Lisa: I said, when you can name the transition, You give yourself permission to talk and process that out together. Talk about what's changing and how it's affecting each of you emotionally, logistically, all the things.
Open communication is key here.
James: truly is.
Lisa: Another important point is to practice patience. I would say with your spouse and with yourself, give yourself a little grace. Liminal seasons aren't quick fixes, but they are a season. It is easy to feel rushed to get through it. And that's why my phrase for the year is the slower I go, the faster I arrive is slow down and appreciate the season.
But part of navigating this time well is understanding that it is a process. Yeah,
James: Yeah, that's really good.
Something that really helped us was setting short term goals, And those in between spaces, you might not know the full picture of what's ahead, but if you focus on small achievable goals you can give yourselves a sense of purpose.
For example, when your mom moved in, Lisa, we set a daily goal of having a small amount of uninterrupted time together each morning and night. We actually set even small manageable goals of how long the season would last, right?
Lisa: Even if the goal moved, if the season was longer or shorter, we just knew come this time, we're going to reevaluate and it would go, we can do this.
We can do this. You have probably heard us talk about our morning minutes. Those times together became even more vital in our marriage intimacy. So great thing that we had established those before because they were a lifeline to us in the season. But we had even more intentionality than we usually would make to make sure, prioritize that those minutes happened.
James: And another practice is to lean into your faith for us prayer and seeking God's guidance during those times provided us with peace and direction. Liminal spaces often highlight how little control we have, but they also actually remind us that trust God in the process.
Lisa: right. We have always found that during liminal seasons, We can apply Proverbs 6. Trusting God and not leaning to our own understanding, but acknowledging that God's in control and that He will direct us to the other side of the liminal season, and don't underestimate the importance of community.
Even though liminal spaces can sometimes feel isolating, reach out to your pro marriage community, surrounding yourselves with people who can support you can make a huge difference. And I think in this past season, that was hard to find because of our time.
But we made that connection when we knew we could, but we also had grace for ourselves to know that when we couldn't. So when we liminal seasons, friends who texted us, Just to check on us helped us feel less alone and connected to them Even if we physically couldn't spend time with them,
James: Right. And that's one of the reasons that we're starting the collective, right, is because some people have a hard time finding that pro marriage community. So our attempt through the collective is actually to create a community that you can always get encouragement, always get some tools to help you through those liminal spaces that are going to happen all throughout our marriage, right?
Okay. So the last thing we'd say is just to prioritize your marriage. It's easy to let uncertainty of the transition consume you But carving out time to connect laugh and dream together Will strengthen your bond and keep you grounded, you know for us even simple things like an evening walk Or a quick run to grab a coffee together help to stay connected during those times And I liminal seasons.
It's important to prioritize all facets of intimacy get very intentional and listening to one another. That's that emotional intimacy, right? Touching one another, physical intimacy and scheduling recreational fun, making sure that you don't bypass date nights or opportunities to spend time together and definitely not neglecting your sexual intimacy.
Lisa: That makes me think of the time james years ago that I encouraged a friend She and her husband were navigating a tough time with a teenager And I could we could see it visibly on them.
It was a very it was really a crisis time in their family life family dynamic And I was talking with her and I'm the girl who actually is all out there as I am. You may be surprised that I do believe there's a sacredness in our sexual intimacy life that isn't shared with girlfriends. So I'm not going around talking about this kind of area of our life, but I knew that I needed to ask her,
How are you guys doing with your sexual intimacy?
And she said, it's not going well. It's not happening. And I said, I'm going to come alongside of you. And your husband's going to thank me later
James: I think what you said is I'm going to help a sister out. That's how you would say
Lisa: That's what I would help a sister out and meanwhile I helped a brother out too So but nonetheless I said we're gonna go get some nice
James: That's where we say a better me is a better we, right? That's right. That's right, so I said we're gonna go get some let's say fun. Nightwear and they weren't going to be sweats and long sleep pajamas. So she was like, I think I need to do this. And I said, of course you need to do this.
Lisa: So went and went shopping and helped get her in a mindset to move out of the trauma and drama, literally the trauma and drama of what they were faced with and move and be intentional in that area. And later years later, she said, Lisa, honestly, that was the most helpful thing for my marriage at that time, because I couldn't even think about that.
Because we were in such a liminal space. It's no longer, but we're not there yet. And we are literally on the tightrope of life.
James: literally on the track road. Pro working on all areas of intimacy. I remember a season in our life where we were going through a tough season, a liminal space.
And our physical intimacy was not where it usually is. but we really grew in our emotional intimacy. We really leaned into being vulnerable with each other about how we're feeling about situation. And I think we actually grew more intimate in our marriage during that season. So during these seasons, you have to be intentional if you want to come out the other side, getting off the tightrope together and feeling stronger in your
Lisa: Yeah.
And that actually goes to that. This is an opportunity. We didn't see it as an opportunity in that moment, but it was actually an opportunity. We were deepening in a way that's far greater than just one element of intimacy being sex. We were developing the others, which would serve us well in the next season.
James: I would just say, if you haven't, if this is a new concept to you, if you're new to the show we'll put in the show notes, we did a whole episode on intentional, intimacy, which would be great for maybe you to go back and refresh yourselves on, especially if you're walking through a season right now where you don't see the other side.
Lisa: you think intimacy is one facet, you are sadly mistaken and you're going to be on a no good pathway.
So now we want to turn a corner here. In the conversation, just step back because we would want to look at some different kinds of liminal spaces. The season of deep loss and pain is much different than a season of moving to be an empty nester or changing of careers or moving from one place to the other.
It's about facing literally unexpected, heart wrenching situations like the loss of a child. dealing with betrayal like an affair or experience a severe health crisis. These seasons feel a lot more like the rug has been pulled out from under you in life. And you're left wondering, how do I even begin to move forward?
That's a whole nother ballgame of a space.
James: absolutely. These kinds of liminal spaces can be some of the most challenging because they come with a mix of emotions. It could be grief, could be anger, maybe confusion, and sometimes even a sense of hopelessness, right? And if it can feel like you're stuck in this fog and we've been there, maybe not too extreme of a loss of a child or anything, but dealing with, you Betrayal or pain of trust broken in relationships and friendships around us.
It can just feel like a fog and unsure what life looks like now with the old normal is gone Right, you have to step into this new normal And it's okay to acknowledge that these are not easy places to be
Lisa: be in. That's right, and easy answers cannot fix this. This is very complex, and so even in this moment, we don't want to reduce it to an easy fix.
But of liminal season, it is crucial to remember that it's not about fixing it. Things don't fix quickly. Pain like this doesn't just go away, but here's where the concept of liminality can be helpful. Remember, this is a threshold, a space where you're not yet on the other side, but you're also not going to be stuck forever.
And in this past season with us, James, it did feel like, will this ever end? or how is this going to turn out? In these seasons, when it doesn't feel like it's going to end, it's a time to be kind to yourself, be kind to each other, process the pain, allow healing to start taking place, however slowly it might be.
James: Yeah, one of the keys here is vulnerability and during seasons of deep pain, it's tempting to withdraw to build walls around your heart to protect yourself. But if you're going to navigate this liminal space together, you need to create safe space to express your grief, your anger, your hurt, and your fears.
And this is where having those open, sometimes messy conversations can actually help you reconnect and find a way forward. one step at a time,
Lisa: And a key word there is creating a safe space for vulnerability. Oftentimes this is a place where you do not, or I do not try to fix anything.
You're just feeling things. You're not going, you shouldn't feel that way. It's really whatever is shared in that moment, not dredged up in another painful moment. Right. This is part of just two little steps in creating space of vulnerability to foster. Okay. Let's be honest. There are times when we feel like giving up.
Yeah. Yeah.
James: maybe trust
Lisa: before our eyes. And it doesn't mean that the process will be quick or easy. Actually, it's probably going to be pretty tough and hard.
It might mean counseling, lots of prayer, more counseling, lots of prayer, dying to self, and then more counseling, Or simply learning how to show up for each other one day at a time.
James: Yeah, Let's emphasize that it's in these kinds of painful liminal spaces that leaning into faith can become incredibly helpful and important. You may not have the answers and you may not even feel like things will ever get better. But trusting that God is with you in this in between can provide a real source of strength and hope.
And sometimes it's about surrendering the pain to God and allowing him to work in ways that you can't see yet. Right. I love what Psalm 34, 18 says. And it reminds us that God is close to the broken hearted and he saves those who are crushed in spirit.
Lisa: this because there's a for the individual, a lot of spiritual growth that happens, but in a couple, this is where spiritual intimacy can be developed and it's an opportunity. However, it doesn't feel like one in the moment, but it is, we just want to give you hope it's an, it is an opportunity to grow in that area.
James: Yeah, I think that it's proven out through studies that a lot of couples when they go through crisis or when they're going through struggle, they tend to isolate and it doesn't mean that you have to go jump in a small group or start serving Just going and sitting together in church is going to surround you with community.
People are going to see, you're going to interact with people and it helps eliminate isolation when you're going through a liminal
Lisa: that you bring that up because I was talking to an area counselor in our area in Palm Beach County that doesn't attend our church and we were talking about just church and counseling and therapy and she said, you know what? I send a lot of my clients to your church just to set.
Right. Shoulder to shoulder in a positive environment that's life giving. And it speaks to your point, yeah. And so figuring out community in some sort, some way is imperative have pro marriage community. Right. And again you need to assess what it is you need and it's okay that it might not be groups, but it does need to be people and know when you're actually pulling away.
And that for us in this last season. Was challenging for me to assess of am I actually pulling away and detaching from people? Or is it that we are just so slammed with doing this life and we're not pulling away. We just need to make sure that we're intentional about having those moments with other people
James: it's really
Lisa: just you and me. So this might mean that this is a season where you might need a support group seeking help from a pastor, talking to friends who've walked through similar situations. The key is don't walk this alone and if you feel alone, you're actually not. You just need to look up, look around and press through the awkward.
Balance the tightrope, and find your people. Yeah
James: for us growing up seeking professional help had such a taboo about it. It's so much more common now, and it's okay to seek professional help, whether it's an individual counseling, couples therapy, spiritual direction, maybe getting guidance from an outside perspective can be incredibly valuable during these times.
And it's a form of investing in your marriage, right? Anything you invest in the season, it's only going to have dividends that are going to pay off what you sow. You're going to reap. So even in these seasons that seem uncertain, if you're going to sow into your marriage through these resources, it's, you're going to reap a blessing from it.
Lisa: Yeah. The quote that's coming to mind to me right now with all of that is if you don't have a plan, you plan to fail. That's right. And so you can't just wing this and think you're gonna get out of it and. That there has to be an action plan and moving forward in strength. So if you're in one of these painful liminal spaces right now, remember that you're not alone.
There's hope. This season is incredibly hard and it's okay to feel everything you're feeling. I remember God spoke to me and said, Lisa, I'm very comfortable with your humanity. Matter of fact, I designed it and I'm very well aware of your emotions, so feel the feels.
So if you need permission, do it. So if this is a season of grief or anger and of questioning, fill those things, journal those things process them, but it also is a season where God may do a really deep work in your heart. And in your marriage, if you allow him. So it's like the opportunity that we actually saw on the back end of some of these seasons for ourselves.
We want to give you hope that there is growth that's going to make you stronger. We know this because we have many friends who've walked through and come out on the other side.
James: these painful, liminal seasons. We actually
Lisa: We actually have several of them as guests on the podcast, and we have links to some of those episodes in the show notes for you just to encourage you and the process might be slow but each step forward, no matter how hard it is, is stepping toward healing and strength.
James: Yeah, and you mentioned guests on our show and our next episode, we sat down with some new friends that talk about a liminal space.
Lisa: Mind blown.
James: Yeah. So you don't want to miss our next episode where you'll kind of see this in practice, liminality, even as most painful forms holds the potential for growth.
And transformation. It's not about rushing to get out of it, but allowing yourself the time to process grief, heal, and ultimately find a way to rebuild together. So be patient, be kind, and hold on to hope, even when it seems distant, right?
Lisa: That's right. with that said, James, let's talk about some potential benefits that come from these liminal spaces even the really difficult ones, when we're in the middle of pain, it can be hard to see the potential for growth.
We've talked about this through the whole podcast, these opportunities that you don't see as opportunities, but they're there. But we have found that it's often in these in between seasons where the most beautiful Transformation deepening of our relationship happens.
In every liminal season, there is a silver lining. I hate cliche statements like that, but it actually is true. It is. Liminality, as tough as it can be, is where some of the most profound growth in our marriage happens. It is in these uncertain in between spaces that we can redefine our roles with each other and in our marriage, explore new ways of relating and deepen our understanding of one another.
James: It's like being in a refining fire. You can shed old habits, discover new strengths and come out more connected than before. And we say it all the time, marriage isn't hard. But life is and liminal seasons are when life sometimes becomes really hard. And when you go through these difficult life seasons together, you're forging a bond that's resilient and lasting
Lisa: in a liminal space right now No, it is not wasted time. This is where depth and richness happens God can use a season to bring you closer as a couple deepen your faith and prepare you for the next season The key is to be intentional and open to growth that's happening. Even if you can't see the full picture yet It's going to come into play.
Yeah,
James: So as we wrap up, we just want to encourage you, if you're standing in the in between space in your marriage, go ahead and embrace it, acknowledge it, acknowledge where you are, begin to communicate openly about it, be patient with one another, and then finally trust God is working even when you can't see it.
Lisa: Yeah, you're not the first who's been here.
You're not the last who's been here. You're not alone in this So every marriage goes through these transitions use the season to reconnect redefine and strengthen your relationship And if you need support reach out to your community or even drop us a message We're here to talk and walk this out with you and your journey Yeah,
James: whether it's a daily check in or a planned date night, Making time for your relationship during these liminal spaces can make all the difference in how you come out on the other side. Yeah,
Lisa: We heard recently about the daily five. Is it five minutes at the top of the day just to check in with each other or in the evening? I think that's a great practice right here to be able to go, Hey, let's check in each other. It's our daily five. So thanks for joining us today. We hope this conversation has given you some insight and hope for you as you navigate your own seasons of liminality.
We'd love to hear how it resonates with you. So feel free to share your thoughts with us and direct message us on Instagram, or you can email us at hello at artistspousing. com.
James: Yeah, until next time, keep investing in your marriage, embracing those in between spaces. We'll see you on the next episode of the Artist Spousing Podcast.
Until then, bye bye.
Lisa: Hey friends, before you go, don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Artispousing and sign up for our newsletter and the show notes to stay updated on all things Artispousing.
We've got some exciting announcements coming soon and you're not going to want to miss out And
James: And if you're looking for more ways to strengthen your marriage, be sure to check out our monthly coaching program, the collective it's designed to help you grow through every season, including those liminal spaces. Find out more at our, the spousing. com. See you next time.