Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is a transformative and supportive Podcast, dedicated to helping those who are, or have been, abused by narcissists to heal from the ravages of narcissistic abuse. Our show is a lifeline for those who are looking for next steps in their emotional and psychological healing, offering expert guidance and practical solutions for those who are in narcissistic relationships or are rebuilding their lives after narcissistic abuse. The hosts are Attorney Padideh Jafari and Jon McKenney who have helped hundreds of people in their narcissistic abuse recovery and know the journey personally in their own lives.
I brought a situation to her and had a had a conversation. Whatever I got back was the opposite of relationship. It was the opposite of what should be said. It was the opposite of kind. I'm like, I'm in opposite world.
Voiceover:In a world of hurt and pain, we find a way to break the chain. A caring heart, a guiding light, you'll lead us through the darkest night. With preservation in our soul, we'll rescue those who've lost control, escape the grip of a narcissist on our journey to recovery bliss.
Jon McKenney:Badita, good to see you again.
Padideh Jafari:Good to see you.
Jon McKenney:I have the privilege of being in studio with you again at Olas Media. So this is very exciting to actually do our podcast together live in person.
Padideh Jafari:I know. It's wonderful. I I gotta have you move to Southern California. I mean, what do I have to do to get that happening, emotion?
Jon McKenney:It's it's probably a bank account thing. Oh. The housing in Georgia while it's doubled in price in the last couple of years, it's still not quite where we are in California. And the gasoline here is ridiculously expensive too.
Padideh Jafari:We're
Jon McKenney:talking about $5 a gallon versus $2.70.
Padideh Jafari:And to that point, they're actually increasing gas July 1.
Jon McKenney:Oh, isn't that nice?
Padideh Jafari:They're putting a tax on it.
Jon McKenney:It was funny. Drove through Downtown LA the other day and I'm like this looks wow. It's a culture shock for me.
Padideh Jafari:Yes. Almost like a third world country.
Jon McKenney:It kind of felt that way. In fact, visited Cape Town, South Africa a couple of years ago with my best friend and his family. And there were some really, there were real similarities between the two. Was fascinating to me.
Padideh Jafari:Wow, and I go downtown a lot as you know Downtown LA because that's the main court is Downtown LA.
Jon McKenney:Yeah.
Padideh Jafari:So I know exactly what you're talking about.
Jon McKenney:Culture shock and the other thing that I think I'd have a hard time adjusting to. I mean Atlanta traffic is no gem either, but it doesn't generally take me an hour and a half to go four miles. So around here it's like I could walk quicker
Padideh Jafari:in
Jon McKenney:some So of those it's adjustment. So what are we talking about today, Padida?
Padideh Jafari:We're talking about recovery. So much of narcissists and when you hear about narcissists and it's such a downer. It is. It really is. It's like if you've been through a narcissistic relationship, you know.
Padideh Jafari:You're like, I know all these things, tell me how to recover.
Jon McKenney:How do I get better?
Padideh Jafari:How do I get better, heal, recover, and move on from this demon in my life?
Jon McKenney:And it really is kind of a moving on, isn't it? I mean, in some ways, at least for me, I felt like I divorced at 53. I felt like I was starting over and you have to kind of assent to that.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, I mean we want to with this podcast, We want to call it narcissist abuse recovery channel because we want to give the victims who we call survivors, because really they are survivors.
Jon McKenney:They are
Padideh Jafari:And survivors hope because there is hope at the end of this. There really is and you and I are both examples of that.
Jon McKenney:We are. So in our last podcast I learned something new about you.
Padideh Jafari:Oh God, do I want this aired?
Jon McKenney:You do, probably you're fine.
Padideh Jafari:Okay.
Jon McKenney:So I learned that when you divorced your ex, you did not know he was a narcissist then.
Padideh Jafari:That's absolutely correct. How
Jon McKenney:it's like because you're so adept at this now, I'm like, how is that possible? But you found out, how did you discover it? And after the fact.
Padideh Jafari:Yes, I discovered it because of my husband's, his abuse with his ex wife, how she was abusing him to this day. They were married for fourteen years, divorced for fifteen and she's still trying to financially abuse him and she's obviously abusing the children as well. So that's how I started to learn about narcissism. Was like the person that she's describing is not the person I'm falling in love with. There is a major disconnect.
Padideh Jafari:It's like Jekyll and Mr. Hutt, you know it's like that type of thing. It was so different than the person I knew. And so I was like there is some psychology here and I need to figure it out. Around that same time people were talking about mental health, like mental health issues.
Padideh Jafari:Like June was men's mental health month. We didn't have that twenty two years ago. No. We didn't. And so as the new generation, I mean we talk so much about millennials or bad or this or that, they don't know how to do this, they don't have manners.
Padideh Jafari:You know what, millennials are talking about mental health.
Jon McKenney:They absolutely are.
Padideh Jafari:So because of that I studied and I understood the psychology of narcissism and other cluster B personality disorder. I will tell you in my practice I also deal with a lot of other personality disorders.
Jon McKenney:I bet.
Padideh Jafari:Like histrionics, women have that personality disorder like Amber Heard. She's a prime example of that. So yes, I learned it really five, six years ago.
Jon McKenney:Yeah, So here you are trying to recover from something you actually discovered after the fact with respect to your divorce. In my situation, I was married for twenty five years. I was in a helping profession where I'd counseled and talked to many, many people over the years. And I didn't understand what narcissistic abuse was. And I literally sitting down praying, begging God for help.
Jon McKenney:And I got distracted as I was praying and I picked up my phone and scrolled to Facebook for just a second. And my friend posted an article, 20 diversion tactics of narcissists, psychopaths and sociopaths. And I read it and I went, woah, like I could point to stories for every one of those things from my ex. And learned there that she was a narcissist, but it was twenty five years in.
Padideh Jafari:Wow. That's incredible.
Jon McKenney:It's a long time. Now, okay, I've been divorced five, you've been divorced seven, right?
Padideh Jafari:No. I've been divorced close to 15.
Jon McKenney:15, that's right. So had to figure out how to recover from all of this and to get better. And while we talk about a lot of this stuff all the time, don't again for the podcast, we don't live in these things in ways. A lot
Padideh Jafari:Well, that's not true. I mean we live them with like sometimes I do with opposing counsels.
Jon McKenney:True.
Padideh Jafari:I do with sometimes neighbors let's say. Although I love my neighbors, I'm not saying you guys are narcissists if you're listening to this. But we see it with the person maybe in the grocery aisle, right? You're trying to get something and they're trying to like, we see it so yes, in my personal life I'm not, you know
Jon McKenney:You're not dealing with the old stuff so No, much well,
Padideh Jafari:That's also not true because my ex, he is like the cockroach that you try to kill. This guy keeps coming back. So he is so for our listeners, my ex husband is remarried, third marriage, no judgment. Listen, sometimes it takes a while. You kiss a lot of frogs and sometimes it turns out like a prince.
Padideh Jafari:Not in this case though. He's remarried, also had an adulterous affair with her, got her divorce from her husband. So he likes this is a pattern with him. I'm gonna get the girl that already has a husband that nobody can get, right? But I can get him.
Padideh Jafari:I was engaged when I met him, truth be told. So got the girl, listen, he doesn't go for ugly girls. I'm not saying I'm the most beautiful girl, but
Jon McKenney:Oh, come on.
Padideh Jafari:Okay, fine. And so what happens is he comes back. So he constantly tries to DM me on TikTok and Instagram saying, you know, if you were just like my current wife, we would still be together.
Jon McKenney:Like, why would they do that? I mean, after so many years.
Padideh Jafari:Or like he'll say, I'm in Beverly Hills. He lives in Texas. He's moved 50 times in fifteen years. But I'm gonna be in Beverly Hills. I'd like you to take you to dinner.
Padideh Jafari:And I'm like, and you and by the way, bring your husband. Like he is
Jon McKenney:so Like we're gonna be friends.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, like my husband's gonna sit there on a couch like you and I are and say, so this girl that you literally tried to ruin her life where she was suicidal, you want me to just break bread with you? That's not gonna happen. Yeah. And we don't have children, so it's not like I need to ever see them again unlike So your yes, so I wish I knew what I know now fifteen years ago because my recovery was at a snail's pace. And I wish I knew all the things that we know now.
Jon McKenney:And what I mean by living in it, don't have to deal with it every single day in the same kind of way that we did when we were attached to them. And I have some evidences of those kinds of things in my life too where my ex will text me and ask me to go do this or that. Like we're friends and we're not. In fact, I've gone complete no contact with her. I don't respond to texts generally or have any conversation with her.
Jon McKenney:And I've told her that I don't want any conversation unless it's about the children. And then I've got issues with the children too who kind of respond in some narcissistic ways to me also, which makes it difficult. And that's like having to deal with her via proxy, but it's not every day fortunately. And by and large I feel mostly healed. I feel like I've gone and done some things in recovery that have been good for me.
Jon McKenney:And I know you've done some of these things as well. And we're in a markedly different place than we were when we first divorced.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, mean my last therapist, and I went through therapy for seven years.
Jon McKenney:I did, I went to a therapist too.
Padideh Jafari:In this relationship because was, they were constantly, he was constantly telling me there was something wrong with me. And I believed him. Because I cared for him and I loved him and I was like gosh, if I'm so bad, let me go fix me because I wanna be the best wife humanly possible for you. Right. And so my last therapist though said to me, the therapist was sitting across, you and I were on a couch.
Padideh Jafari:He said to me, he said, I want to meet this person. And that changed my life because when he came in and he starts telling me how terrible, awful I am, and listen, I've got flaws and I'm willing to admit that, right? The next time the therapist said, Okay, I want to see her again, my patient, I want to see my patient again. So I went back and the therapist sat me down, he goes, I'm gonna tell you this and I'm only gonna tell you this once. And I was like, okay.
Padideh Jafari:He goes, if you don't leave him, he's going to kill you. Do you understand what I'm telling you? And I was like, he goes so right now we're gonna sit and we're gonna discuss where you can move to. And I was like I don't know if you know this, I'm a successful lawyer. By then I was a lawyer for ten years.
Padideh Jafari:I was like I'm a successful lawyer with a practice in LA. Like what do you mean, where am I going? He's like no, no, no. Can you go to Paris? Can you go to Georgia?
Padideh Jafari:Where do you like? Do you like Texas? He literally was trying to strategize and I said well I love New York. I've always wanted to be a lawyer in New York or maybe teach at NYU or something. He's like okay, so what I need you to do is I need you to not tell him this and I need you to make a plan to move.
Padideh Jafari:So to the point where I went home that day, packed a bag, didn't tell my mom, didn't tell anybody that I loved, my family, my friends, and I took a one way ticket to New York.
Jon McKenney:Unbelievable, unbelievable. And actually what you bring up is kind of on my list of things to do to recover. First thing is to make a plan to exit in some kind of way.
Padideh Jafari:Escape. I call it escape because you never leave a narcissist. They won't let you leave.
Jon McKenney:Absolutely.
Padideh Jafari:You have to escape and I literally escaped from my life. And it was two years later when he even found out. We filed for a divorce and we did all that stuff. But I couldn't close the case. There was a part of me living 2,400 miles away that still thought if he changes or if I become better somehow I'm gonna get back together.
Padideh Jafari:That's how the trauma bond Yes.
Jon McKenney:That that's as you described, that's that's kind of another thing on my list of of things to do to kind of heal and recover is to realize that this relationship will not work and it's not going to get better. In fact, it will get worse in time and it does not improve. Narcissists do not improve in time, they get worse in time.
Padideh Jafari:Yes, and as they age, and I think there's a study we can go back and let our listeners know, It's not a Harvard study but it's one of those studies that says that as narcissists age they get worse not better. Because their friends, their family members fall off, right? Because they don't want to deal with the chaos that the narcissist has. So they'll start falling off and the narcissist ends up being alone a lot of the times. I know mine is remarried but I genuinely believe that it's so new in their relationship she just doesn't know.
Padideh Jafari:And if she knew what I know, there's no way she would have married him. There's just nobody would, right?
Jon McKenney:Right, absolutely. Oftentimes when you're in a relationship with a narcissist you have the victim who's working desperately hard to try and figure out how to make this thing work. Desperately. I was in that boat too. It's like I turned over every stone I could possibly turn over.
Jon McKenney:I sent her to therapy, I went to therapy and I could not figure out how to make this thing work. And I continue to try and continue to try and continue to try. Part of the process of recovering is realizing that you don't have a relationship with a narcissist that is going to work. There's not a relationship here. And let me take this one step further.
Jon McKenney:Not only do you not have a relationship with a narcissist, but the harder thing to absorb is that you never really did.
Padideh Jafari:That's so hard. To this day, mean you're saying that John but it's so triggering.
Jon McKenney:I bet.
Padideh Jafari:Because I genuinely love this person.
Jon McKenney:Same here. But the problem is you loved him, I loved her, but we're the only ones that had love. What you thought was love upfront was actually pretending in order to kind of drain you of resource in some kind of way, whether it's financially, whether it's emotionally, whether it's status.
Padideh Jafari:Sexually with mine.
Jon McKenney:Sexually, So it's not love upfront. I sat down years back, well probably about two years before I divorced with my pastor and her. And he asked her, did you ever love him? She goes, nah, I never really did.
Padideh Jafari:Twenty six years with someone.
Jon McKenney:And she again, it's a rare the rare moments of honesty and you know, you feel like you're pinned to the wall with a dagger at that point in time. Like not not only does she not love me, but she never loved me. Would you go, why in in the world would you marry somebody you don't love? But this is the truth. My ex verbalized it, I knew it but to hear it was kind of devastating anyways.
Jon McKenney:But you you have to understand that you are the one who had love. They're the ones who are using you. And that the relationship you thought you had actually never existed. It was it was a relationship of function for them, of use, but love was not a part of that relationship and not a part of that equation.
Padideh Jafari:Right. I mean I can think back to I was everything. I was the babysitter because he had a daughter. I was the one doing pickups and drop offs. He would never do them, never.
Padideh Jafari:When I say never, he never showed up for that
Jon McKenney:Like a zero.
Padideh Jafari:Zero times. I was taking her to church twice a week. I was writing the spousal support and child support checks to his ex. I was doing everything, like financially. Oh you want seven series car but you don't have a job?
Padideh Jafari:No problem, I'll get it for you. Yep. Like everything and anything, even my family back in the day, we lived very close like ten minutes away. Couldn't even go see my dad. When my dad ended up in the hospital for the final time, I literally begged him.
Padideh Jafari:I was like I will buy you anything, I will buy you a watch. He was sexually deviant. I was like I'll go do whatever you want sexually if you come to the hospital to see my father and his thing was like being with other men. So it was like, that was the extent of it, right? It wasn't like, let me wear a maid outfit for you.
Padideh Jafari:It wasn't like that. That would have been like just kinky, right?
Jon McKenney:Right.
Padideh Jafari:It was like I will do anything possible for you to come visit my father because he's asking about you. And so when he came to the hospital finally my dad's like, Oh, you know you're here blah blah blah blah. My father said, Will you pray for me? And then my father said, when I'm gone, will you take care of my daughter?
Jon McKenney:Oh my God.
Padideh Jafari:And he's like, yes I will. And I just sat there going, this is costing me so much, right? Yeah. And he walked out of there and he was like, yeah, you know, your dad's saved now. I showed up and I'm the savior.
Padideh Jafari:And I'm thinking to myself, okay, what is this gonna cost me? And it did. It cost me greatly because later on sexually what I had to do for him keep him, to keep our marriage this facade like you're saying that didn't really it wasn't a marriage. It wasn't one on one like communication or I mean
Jon McKenney:It's hard it's hard to adjust to. It it's it is it is to adjust to the fact that you did not really ever have a relationship with somebody that you genuinely loved. It was a one way relationship. If you have you have love for the person I used to tell my ex all the time, you know, if I if I brought a situation to her and had a conversation, whatever I got back was the opposite of relationship. It was the opposite of what should be said.
Jon McKenney:It was the opposite of kind. I'm like, I'm in opposite world. I'm looking for compassion, I get rage. I'm looking for kindness, I get anger. And it was always the opposite of what a friend, a loving friend would do.
Jon McKenney:And now we have perspective some because we've been out of those relationships for such a long time. But to adjust to the fact that you never really had a relationship with these people is very hard.
Padideh Jafari:Right, so when we're talking about recovery, I mean don't do it what I did, right? I left everybody that I loved, moved to New York and really was bi coastal for thirteen years. That's how I taught at NYU and I went on to do other things and had a practice obviously still here in California. But it was difficult. It was not easy.
Padideh Jafari:And my mom would say to me like, how long are you going to punish yourself? Know, because I was literally punishing myself. And it really wasn't until I met my husband which was years later that I was like, wow, okay, I think I can forgive myself for the things I had to do to keep this person. And really made an idol of him. He was before everybody else, before God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit.
Padideh Jafari:He was the first, he was the idol. And so I had to forgive myself for that as well and ask God for forgiveness. But the recovery really was moving away, exercise, I did a lot of exercise, I had to.
Jon McKenney:Let's about the moving away piece for a second because I mean ultimately the only way to deal with a narcissist is to disconnect. Yes. Like there's no rationalizing with this person. There's no negotiating with this person. Healthy relationships there's negotiation.
Jon McKenney:I think negotiation is happening all the time because it matters to you, it matters to me. And that never takes place with a narcissist because what matters to you doesn't matter to me. What matters to me matters to me and what matters to you, I don't care about. And you can't ever have a relationship with somebody like that. And if you don't have a relationship with somebody like that, you realize you didn't have a relationship with somebody like that.
Jon McKenney:You're not going to have a relationship with somebody like that. The only solution is to disconnect. And your therapist told you to go pack up and head to New York, which you did, but that was as much as it was extreme, it was also right.
Padideh Jafari:Right, I had to.
Jon McKenney:You had to disconnect and there are people out there, well how do I disconnect? I can't leave right now. There are different levels of disconnection. There's something we call gray rock and in gray rock you're basically emotionally disconnecting from somebody. I oftentimes, at least when I got to this point in my marriage, was one word answers.
Jon McKenney:You're going out? Yes. Where are you going? Out. And and you you you have to you have to kinda disconnect from this person emotionally and you you wind up just kinda giving them passionless and very very dispassionate responses instead of responses that have any kind of emotion whatsoever because emotion fuels them.
Jon McKenney:So you're trying to kind of remove their authority, remove their control. And when you respond dispassionately, they realize they have no control over you. I started to do that and my ex asked me to leave three weeks later. She's like, you can get out. And I'm like, oh no, my name's on the deed of that house, but there's the door.
Jon McKenney:You're welcome to go if you like. And we're beginning to have these conversations, but it was because I to just completely and totally, particularly those last two years, emotionally disconnect. And during those two years, like you, you went home, packed a bag and left, bought yourself a one way ticket. It took me two years, I had to make a plan to get out which I was uncertain whether I was gonna go execute but I started and did that for a couple of years and then when the time was right two years in I said okay I need a divorce and I began to execute that plan.
Padideh Jafari:Right and a lot of clients they'll come to me for a strategy session because we talk about that on our social media. Like just come in for a consultation I do it via zoom. Let's figure out what your next move is Remember that narcissists are very crafty. They're like serpents. This is a biblical perspective but they're like serpents.
Padideh Jafari:So they're very crafty in the way that they think and they're always thinking like a 100 or more.
Jon McKenney:And they'll always do the unexpected. Right. Like the thing you think they would absolutely never go do, they will do. They will constantly surprise you.
Padideh Jafari:So I'll set up a strategy session with them and figure out sort of like when you should leave. Should you wait till, if you have children obviously you can't just pack up a bag and leave. I was blessed that I didn't have a child with this person or else I'd be stuck in California permanently. But what happens is I'll say should we wait until the children get out of school in the summer? That's why January and June are divorce months.
Jon McKenney:Interesting.
Padideh Jafari:And so are they out of school? Okay, they, sometimes a client will say, they'll file and they're like don't serve the person until a certain thing happens.
Jon McKenney:Right.
Padideh Jafari:And I'm like okay, unfortunately in Orange County once you file, they don't do it through the system. They do it like by hand And so it takes a week or two. So you filing for divorce and you won't get that document back for sometimes a week or two.
Jon McKenney:Wow.
Padideh Jafari:And so during that time, right, you're strategizing and then you get it back and then you have to serve the person. So that starts the six month waiting period in California because we have a waiting period. Yeah. So it's called cooling off period.
Jon McKenney:Yeah.
Padideh Jafari:And and you're just thinking like, get Get
Jon McKenney:the hell out period is Kate, what it right.
Padideh Jafari:That's what we do because we deal with high conflict narcissistic divorces. Really strategize and think about and say this is the strategy but they're gonna go left anyway. They're gonna go right. They're gonna do what is unthinkable.
Jon McKenney:And and interestingly enough, also at the same time, if you're if you're still in a relationship with these people, something we talked about on one of the other pod podcasts, I think with with Eddie. We we talked about about actually doing what you need to do to try and save the thing in some respects or to at least get your narcissist help so that when you leave you have peace.
Padideh Jafari:Right. So with Bill Eddie, he was saying that, I think it was in this season two, season three, he was saying that some people want to do everything possible so that when they leave, they don't feel guilt. Because as a survivor you do have guilt.
Jon McKenney:No question.
Padideh Jafari:And so you've acted like this person's savior, right? Like you're saving them, you're gonna fix their childhood wound, they're not so bad. You've been lying about them to your family and friends. And so his point was like if you are gonna go to therapy, go to therapy just for yourself even. Absolutely.
Padideh Jafari:And so yes I did that too by the way for many years.
Jon McKenney:And likewise for me I brought my ex to different places to try to get her help. I went to a multitude of therapists with her to try to get her help. I actually dialed in on a therapist who just worked with narcissists to try and get her help and every last bit of it she refused. Now, did it save my marriage? Oh hell no.
Jon McKenney:Did it help me in any kind of way to deal with her? Not a whole lot. Does it give me peace today now that I'm out? Oh, yes it does. Okay.
Jon McKenney:I know every time I lay my head down to the pillow at night that I did everything humanly possible to try and help her. And there is a ton of peace in that. Now that being said, somebody could get lost in doing all of these things trying to get their narcissist help. Will they change? No, it's not going to happen.
Jon McKenney:But there is peace for you in making an effort to know that on the other end of it when it's done that you've done everything possible to try and make it work. There's a balance in that because I do think that you could spend decades in trying to get somebody help and by and large let's be clear narcissists don't want help. They don't They don't want to acknowledge a problem. They don't want to acknowledge their part of the problem. I can remember sitting in one with one of the therapists who was a Christian therapist and you'd think they'd counsel you away from divorce.
Jon McKenney:And the therapist looked at me and said, yeah, I just think you need to leave her. And she sat back very quietly for a moment and then ultimately said, am I the cause of all of this? The therapist is like, yes, this is what people divorce over. And she now did that change anything? No, not a bit.
Jon McKenney:Told her told her what should take place, told her what was going to take place and it didn't matter. But again, if doing these kinds of things on the far side, though they didn't help me in relationship with her, they helped me personally and it was an important part of my recovery because I could say on the other side of it, I did everything I could for her. And I believe that and know that in my heart to this day that I did everything I could to try and make it work. And that's the peace part of it. If you go to do some of these things, I'm telling you right now don't expect change.
Jon McKenney:Correct.
Padideh Jafari:I agree with that.
Jon McKenney:But at the same time it is peace for you personally on the other side of it because the relationship is going to end whether you like it or not.
Padideh Jafari:Right and I wanna say one thing and this is the reality of it and I feel like I had this idea came to me when I was thinking about our podcast. The narcissist does not want to change.
Jon McKenney:Zero.
Padideh Jafari:I was trying to have my husband be this church going man that he said he was. Used to have a youth group. You know, don't you want to be that great guy again? Don't you want people to look up to you? Don't you want God to be pleased with you?
Padideh Jafari:Well, he's not when you're cheating and lying and manipulating and ripping people off. He didn't want to be that person. Do you see what I'm
Jon McKenney:saying? Absolutely.
Padideh Jafari:So when you say like you're lying, they could give a shit that they're lying. They're like okay because they don't have the conscience that you and
Jon McKenney:They I don't even know. At some level they didn't realize they're lying or care about it.
Padideh Jafari:That's what I'm saying.
Jon McKenney:They just don't care.
Padideh Jafari:So when you go to therapy and you're like, like you did, you're like don't you wanna change? This is what, they don't. They're really happy with who they are and they're very boastful about it too. Why? You're not gonna leave.
Padideh Jafari:On one hand they think that you're gonna leave them because they've got abandonment issues. On the other hand they think that you're so trauma bonded that you won't. And their ego says like she's never gonna leave. Like literally I was 35 when I left him. He said, who would want you?
Padideh Jafari:You're old and you are a divorce attorney. Who would want you? You're too old, you've passed your prime. And I really felt that way. And then finally I said, even if nobody wants me I'm going to choose me.
Padideh Jafari:And I didn't say that because that would have been a war of magnitude, World War III, IV, V and VI. I just said to myself I said I'm going to choose me.
Jon McKenney:So by and large the people who are in narcissistic relationships we call them empaths a lot of times. Are very empathetic people, they are very compassionate people. They're also people who are the opposite of self centered. So to be in a place where you choose you as you're saying
Padideh Jafari:It's so foreign.
Jon McKenney:It is foreign. It is opposite of the way you naturally operate. So to make that decision for somebody who's empathetic and who pretty naturally puts other people's needs before their own is a ridiculously difficult decision or realization or action to have to assent to. Same thing for me. When I married it ceased to be John and it began to be us, myself and her.
Jon McKenney:Us was what I was most concerned about and in most situations her because I knew that we couldn't have a healthy marriage until she was healthy.
Padideh Jafari:100.
Jon McKenney:So that was part of my trying to get her help. And to have to go and emotionally withdraw, which is kind of self preservation, it's a decision about self. And a decision to have to go divorce, which is also a decision about self. You're saying save yourself, that can be ridiculously hard for people who are empathetic and who consider other people's needs first. But you did it because you had to.
Jon McKenney:Yes. There was no other choice. And this is part of the recovery process too particularly for empathetic people. You have to realize in these places that there is a point in time and there is a place in time where you have to care about you. And it's not selfish to do that, it's necessary.
Padideh Jafari:Yes, because really if you stay with them it's like you're either to lose yourself, you've already lost yourself in the marriage. Totally. And then you're going to be either suicidal, you're gonna either commit suicide because we know people that have committed suicide, you and that have reached out to us through our social media. So it's not a good life for you, right? No.
Padideh Jafari:To stay with them. And then you realize on the other hand they don't wanna change because they're happy being demons. So you're like okay well that demon's happy to be themselves and I need to make a change for myself. And so we've said this before, find somebody that you can talk to. A strategy session maybe with a divorce attorney or even with your close confidant and then just put, like literally I would tell myself today when I wake up I'm gonna put one foot in front of the other and that's all I've got.
Padideh Jafari:I don't have more than that. I would show up at my therapist's office in Uggs and my pajamas. Now remember, I was a successful attorney back then. And this is how I was showing up because that's all I could do.
Jon McKenney:Right.
Padideh Jafari:And so that man actually saved my life. I mean Jesus has saved my life obviously but that therapist saved my life and he's actually helped a lot of people I know get out of abusive marriages and relationships and he passed away two years ago.
Jon McKenney:I'm sorry
Padideh Jafari:about that. Doctor. Shamshian, he's in heaven because he's helped so many people with addiction. He also helps people with addiction get out of this very abusive and toxic marriage.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. There are different levels of people you want to converse with in this whole process of recovery. And I think having other people involved with you is a really important component to recovering. And for me there were a couple of different levels. One is what you described here, is a therapist or a coach.
Jon McKenney:And ultimately I would tell you, like the first therapist I saw, he helped me and he didn't even realize it. In fact I didn't acknowledge it at the time. Very early on about probably ten years before I divorced this was just after my ex had told me she had an obsession with an ex boyfriend and then was pretending she didn't have the obsession and didn't say it and none of this stuff happened. I can remember I wasn't living in Atlanta at the time and I'd just moved back with the family. I met with this guy and after two or three, maybe five sessions, said to me, one of three things is gonna happen.
Jon McKenney:I said, okay. And he said, you will either divorce her now, you'll divorce her later, or you will find different corners of the house to live in and figure some way to cohabitate. And I stood up and I said, I don't want any of those. I want secret answer number four which is happily ever after because I'd not given up hope. I thought, okay, this is workable and it wasn't workable.
Jon McKenney:When we got to that point, said, I guess we're done. Because I don't want the solutions you're giving me and I stopped seeing him. And he was so right. It just took me another ten years to figure it out. Those were my options.
Jon McKenney:Divorce her now, divorce her later, we'll find some corners of the house to go live in and quite honestly that house was not big enough for the both of us. Which left me with option number one and option number two and I had to divorce her and divorced her later after the kids were out. And then later on as I divorced and began to get through the process, particularly the last two years of our marriage, I went and saw a therapist who specialized in abuse and particularly men who were abused by narcissists that was helpful and kind of transitioned from her. And she was amazing to another therapist. I felt like I connected with a little bit better and who I still see to this day from time to time.
Jon McKenney:In fact, I saw her last week because I was struggling to negotiate in my head with some of the issues with respect to the narcissistic abuse that comes through my children. So I still have these conversations with therapists from time to time and they can be abundantly helpful in the recovery process. So I would encourage you to go do that. Do I think there's a lot of value in you taking your narcissist with you? Zero.
Jon McKenney:None of those sessions were just pissing money away is really all it was. The other level of conversation that I think was helpful in recovery was conversation with friends.
Padideh Jafari:Yes, that was helpful. Although it has to be friends that have sort of gone through a narcissistic, right? Because most people do not understand this because remember this is a disorder.
Jon McKenney:It is a personality If
Padideh Jafari:you say something like this to a girlfriend and they've never been with somebody that's been narcissistic, they cannot relate to you. They'll say, well, know, just do this or maybe you, like I know with women, maybe you need to sleep with him more. And you're like, girl, he's not even interested
Jon McKenney:in So that's the kind of advice I got as well from some people. It's well meaning.
Padideh Jafari:Yes.
Jon McKenney:But it's trite because it it doesn't it doesn't acknowledge the reality of the situation. Going and having sex with somebody is not gonna go fix it, going and being nice. And I got the same advice.
Padideh Jafari:You got
Jon McKenney:From that from a pastor Yeah. Go home, make love to your wife and like that's gonna fix it and like that's what she wants anyways. Are you out of your mind? That's the last thing on her mind and that's the last thing that'll fix our relationship. So when you describe these kinds of things, people who are friends and again perhaps well meaning even in some of it, they don't understand.
Padideh Jafari:Right, well now there's so many resources, right? I mean not to plug our podcast but there's so many resources like podcasts, there's books, there's so many books we YouTube videos, all the things that wasn't there for me fifteen years ago. But I'm happy to be a part of this community of people that believe the victim survivor and really just listen and try to involve yourself in this community and ask questions. And John is obviously you do coaching for men and women.
Jon McKenney:And that's actually where I think coaching could be actually more effective than therapy. Because the coaches you deal with have been through this personally.
Padideh Jafari:Correct.
Jon McKenney:They absolutely know the distance that you've traveled in some capacity and are naturally empathetic too at the same time. So oftentimes they're the best people to go communicate with.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, so it's great that we do have a community and that survivors do have a community. I wish I knew. I wish fifteen years ago I was a little bit less hard on myself. But it took two years. It took two years to finally realize I gotta let this go and I can't carry this guilt.
Jon McKenney:One of the things I think as I was pondering our conversation today and the value of relationships in helping you heal. I found also that through the recovery process that you will be surprised who your friends are on the other end of it.
Padideh Jafari:Oh, 100%. Are you kidding me? Yes,
Jon McKenney:absolutely. There are people you think will stand with you who will go, that can't be happening and will think you crazy and discard you. People you thought were wingmen and friends. I had a guy from my church who I would consider a dear friend and we'd play Words With Friends all the time on our phones and found out I was divorcing, cut me loose. Never had a conversation and I have expected him to have been more empathetic or at least to have heard what was going on.
Jon McKenney:He didn't do that. And there will be others who flat out discard you and don't stand with you because it's a divorce for for other reasons. Then there will be those that group of people who find out who do nothing but draw in close to you.
Padideh Jafari:You had a group?
Jon McKenney:I did.
Padideh Jafari:Oh my gosh. You were blessed.
Jon McKenney:I was.
Padideh Jafari:You were
Jon McKenney:Still am with those same same people. And so I and it's not a large group of people. By and large, we're just talking about a handful of folks who I felt like really stood with me. My my family abandoned me in it and took me in as their family. And so I'm not absent of family.
Jon McKenney:Is it different? Absolutely. But there are people that stood with me through this whole thing that just love me and you will be surprised who stands with you and who doesn't.
Padideh Jafari:Right, and even if it's one person, for me it was just my mom who believed in me and said I don't recognize who my daughter is anymore because I was a shell of myself. And then when I went to New York after I was there for a couple weeks I finally called her and I said you gotta come, I gotta fly you out to New York. I think I'm gonna be staying here and getting an apartment and being bi coastal and she came and she was, my mom is the cutest person. You've seen picture of her but you've never met her in person. She was like five foot two, all wisdom, all wisdom.
Padideh Jafari:And she came and she helped me get my apartment and furniture and all this stuff. But I was in a studio apartment. Like here I'd gone from a penthouse, right? Right. In Studio City actually where we were for our podcast launch party, I was living in Studio City in a penthouse, beautiful cars, the whole thing.
Padideh Jafari:And here I was like in New York City in a studio. But you know what she said to me? She goes, Do you have peace? And I said, Yeah. She goes, That was worth it.
Padideh Jafari:Because everything else you'll get later again if you want it but your peace was expensive. And she's like, your piece was expensive and you didn't listen to me about this guy. I said, I I didn't listen to you, I didn't listen to dad, I didn't listen to my brothers. I go, but can we not ruminate on that because I already feel bad that I didn't listen to the people that loved me. And she said yeah, and that was it.
Padideh Jafari:Wow. But it took two years of, and again we did not have children. So when people have children it just takes longer because like you said you have to deal with them. You can't really block her because God forbid something happens with your child and she needs to get a hold of you.
Jon McKenney:Yeah, mean there are group of people out there who just can't financially afford to leave. Couldn't have afford, with four children, there's no way I could have left while all four of the kids were in the house. All of my money would have gone to child support and I'd have been destitute myself. So it's just not possible. That's why sometimes these plans that people have to make and execute, they take time and mine took time as well.
Jon McKenney:But you talk about your mom, it's like the value of having somebody in your life, even just one person that believes you, that you can communicate with is just tremendous and helpful in your recovery. Now that being said, there are a group of people out there who would love to just kind of go from one relationship to another.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, I don't recommend that. I know as the victim survivor you want to do that because you know that they're going to be doing that. The narcissist is always on, listen they're not finished with the divorce they've already moved on. No. Actually they've always had someone else because they consider it supply so it doesn't mean that they're having meaningful relationships with other people it's just like a form of supply so they have to have at least like a couple out there.
Padideh Jafari:So before they even leave the relationship with you they're already started so that is the tendency is to kind of for yourself to go into the next relationship. But you have to be careful because you have to see your part in it. Is a part of you that chose this person. Now were you fooled? Did you fall for the love bombing?
Padideh Jafari:Yes, but why? Why did you feel that you needed that love bombing? So if somebody's coming on too strong or wants to move in with you or have you move in with them, you've got to just say no.
Jon McKenney:Yeah, you know interesting you're talking about a process here of kind of self discovery trying to figure out why you were attached to a narcissist. What drew you to the narcissist? What kept you in relationship with a narcissist? And trying to determine these kinds of things, a lot of them will wind up being kind of the result of your family of origin. You'll find probably that at the root of a lot of these kinds of things.
Jon McKenney:But if you jump out of a relationship and just into the next one I'm telling you you are destined to kind of repeat the same kind of situation. And that's problematic. The only thing worse than having to deal with one narcissist is having to deal with two. And if you put yourself in a position where you've not taken the time to discover you're just being unwise. And I'll make this statement.
Jon McKenney:The people I've seen and have known over the years through coaching and conversation, particularly on social media, those that run from a relationship with narcissist right into another find a narcissist the second time around.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean for me it took eight years. Eight years of being seven years married, eight years of being single. Not that I didn't date but didn't trust my own judgment that I wasn't going to pick another person like him because something about that was very attractive.
Jon McKenney:And that's that's actually I think the healthy disposition that I don't trust my own judgment. Yes. That's the healthy disposition as you're seeking to recover I think. Because you need to know, you need to understand what it was about you that at some level sought a person like that out, at some level stayed with a person like that and put up with it and allowed your own self to be kind of beat down through the process and continuing in that relationship. I know for me personally, I discovered a lot about my family of origin and how they operate.
Jon McKenney:Cousin said to me one time, goes, do you realize that of the, I think there were seven of us cousins, six of us married people who were relatively narcissistic? And I went, no. I did not realize that's a real insight. And I went back and kind of traced through it and sure enough, that's the reality. And some of that stuff came out of my family of origin.
Jon McKenney:And I see that stuff very clearly now how I put up with that kind of stuff. And the people I engage right now and are close to won't allow that kind of stuff for me. They don't treat me that way and they know my history as well and would not ever allow for those kinds of things for me which I'm grateful for. They're very protective of me. So for us having gone through it putting ourselves in a place of recovery is also understanding that in some respects I'm a dummy and I don't know what's best for me.
Jon McKenney:And until I discover some of these things I really can't trust my own insight with respect to significant relationships like that.
Padideh Jafari:Yes, but recovery is possible. I mean, I am a result of that. You are a I result of mean, remarried, it took eight years, but I have a great marriage. We dated for three years. I got to meet his family, met his children obviously.
Padideh Jafari:He's got three boys. And so wanted my mom to meet him and she did during COVID actually. So met him, got to ask a lot of hard questions to him because him having gone through
Jon McKenney:a
Padideh Jafari:narcissistic marriage with three boys, her daughter having gone through that with no children, she really had some hard questions for him. It was interesting because my oldest brother that was there, we were all kind of talking and having Persian tea and my brother's like, mom, do you have any more questions? And she's like, no. And my oldest brother's thinking he's at the Spanish interrogation, right?
Jon McKenney:Spanish inquisition.
Padideh Jafari:Spanish inquisition. She's like, really? She's like, well, he's being honest and he's being genuine and he's telling me his story himself. So I don't need to ask him anything because he's not leaving anything out. You know?
Padideh Jafari:And so my husband is great because he doesn't blame the mother of his children. He says, you know, I was in a vulnerable time. He had just gotten a job at Goldman Sachs. He's very proud to tell you that if you meet him. And so he was like, I just didn't know.
Padideh Jafari:I was like, Okay, it's time to get married. And she had been married before, like five years older. And she knew sort of what she was doing. So he's like, look, I just thought, Okay, this is the right thing to do. And honorable men do that, right?
Padideh Jafari:And so he's like, Okay, she's great, she's blah, blah, blah. And comes from a big family. All the things that he values now in our relationship. And so he just, but he told her the story so she didn't have to ask questions. So he's like this was my fault for not digging in deeper.
Padideh Jafari:And my mom's like, okay, is there anything else? And he's like, yeah, can I have your blessing? And my mom's like, yes. And without any hesitation. And he is the only man she's ever loved for me.
Padideh Jafari:I'm 50 now.
Jon McKenney:So you've taken it to another level. You've not only had, you've been to therapy and you've had therapists who've helped you significantly. You have other people in your life like your mother who's helped you significantly but you took it one step further and you allowed those people you trust to evaluate your new relationship.
Padideh Jafari:Yes. That was really For you? That was really hard because usually, I mean I'm a lawyer, right? I feel like I got this handled, right? I don't wanna give up that control necessarily.
Padideh Jafari:Right. But I had to say no, I want my family. I want my mom, my brother, my sister who you've met several She's amazing. Thank you, my sister is amazing.
Jon McKenney:It's so evident you just adore her.
Padideh Jafari:I do. I was on the way here actually today and I texted her and I was like, she's at work. And I was like, I just wanna tell you how much I love you and thank you for showing up. Oh my gosh. Wonderful.
Padideh Jafari:She didn't have to. She didn't have to come to our launch party. What is she getting out of it? But just to be there. So yes, I let them sort of evaluate him and that's important.
Padideh Jafari:If you don't have parents, sure your friends are doing it. Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to have people evaluate the person you're with because if they're genuine, your friends are gonna be hopefully you've got good friends, right? Are gonna be happy for you and say yeah absolutely.
Jon McKenney:Interestingly enough you know some of my friends later after the ones I trusted who who knew my ex would would go when they saw us they're like, what? You know? They they of my buddies said, you know, it's like I couldn't ever have pictured you together. And sure enough, I didn't see that upfront. And I wish I'd had somebody who kind of speaks some truth to me earlier on and perhaps this all could have been avoided.
Jon McKenney:This twenty seven year heartache. To go and have the people around you who trust you or who you trust to go and evaluate a new potential relationship, especially when you've embraced the fact that okay, perhaps I'm not so good at choosing is is a healthy thing.
Padideh Jafari:Well, would also say don't beat yourself up because before I got married, my brothers which they never never opined on anyone I ever dated, they sat me down and said do not marry this person. Like if you're just trying to have fun and stuff that's great but do not marry this person. This person's not marriage material. And so even my father who was alive at the time said do not marry him. So don't worry, even if you got that advice, you're so trauma bonded to them that you're like what are you talking about?
Padideh Jafari:Even the people that you trust the most. So just be careful with that because I want our listeners to know that's why it's important to not give your heart away so easily.
Jon McKenney:Lots of things we've discussed here. We hope they're helpful to you in your recovery. If you have questions, feel free to reach out to us on social media. NARC. Podcast is our podcast channel on Instagram.
Jon McKenney:If you want to reach Padida, can reach her at Jafari Legal on Instagram and I'm male victims of female narcissists on Instagram as well. PM boxes are always open to questions. I do coaching as well and Padida is an attorney in real life so if you need either of us to go help you we can help you there too. Than that it'll be until our next time and unfortunately it's not going to be face to face like this so I want to tell you how much I enjoyed being with you in studio. It's just spectacular.
Padideh Jafari:Thank you so much. High five.
Jon McKenney:High five. Have a wonderful afternoon.
Voiceover:Thank you for listening to the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel. Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. To hear other episodes or read the associated blogs, visit www.narcissistabuserecoverychannel.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram with the handled narc. Podcast. The guest views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are their own.
Voiceover:The information presented is for general informational purposes only and is not intended to be legal advice. The co hosts are not licensed therapists. Seek professional help as information is often state specific. The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is produced in studios in California and Georgia.