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Naughty by Nature is a show about finding a god that accepts all of you.
Filmmaker, performer, and former-Evangelical Christian, Treen (Katrina Lillian Sorrentino) is on a mission to find humor and wisdom in all our spiritual journeys, whether we’re being born again or deconstructing from toxic religious relationships.
In this cheeky and subversive series about how to keep the faith, Treen talks with guests about how they processed their religious baggage and carved out a unique spiritual path for themselves.
Oh, and God will be there too, played by a different mystery comedian on every episode.
To join us on this hilarious ride make sure you follow the show, subscribe to our channel here YouTube.com/@nxnpod, and follow along on Instagram @nxnpod for more goodies!
Produced by:
https://www.rainbowcreative.co
https://www.verna.studio
https://www.treentreen.com
Treen: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Naughty by Nature podcast. I'm Treen and I'm your reluctant host on this vulnerable ride. Again, this is a show where we confront what the Christian church told us was taboo through humor, storytelling, and a little role playing so that we can be born again on our terms. In each episode, I've invited a different comedian to play God to help us reimagine a God big enough to hold the fullness of our humanity. So without further ado. God, are you ready to kick us off?
GOD: Episode 4, Masturbation
Treen: God, um, hi, I, you know, I don't often get to talk to you, but on this show, I'm, I'm getting used to being in dialogue with you and I just want to know how are you doing today? What's up? What were you doing right before this?
GOD: Oh, my God, Katrina. I'm so good. I've just been in a state of full bliss this whole morning.
Treen: Wow.
GOD: I had an incredible session with myself. And by that, I mean, I just had a really great bowel movement this morning.
You know, I don't mean to divert the listeners because, of course, I am the goddess of masturbation, but I like to call, you know, myself the goddess of monsieur, which takes, you know, the pleasure of self pleasure and the master, meaning the master of the hand, and putting the hand and the pleasure together.
Treen: Amazing. Well, you are making my, um, Christian roots, uh, tingle with, uh, anticipation because I'm new to this whole, this whole field of self pleasure and, uh, I have a lot to learn from you today.
GOD: Well, where do we start? Katrina, I would love to help you with that if you wanted to explore, you know, more of the tingling from your Christian roots.
Treen: Let's dive in. First off, I'm going to introduce today's guest. So today's show is really special because I'm here with my bestie, uh, my platonic life partner, uh, my son from a previous life, for sure, Lindsay Branham, or as I call her, Lines. Hi, Lines. Do you want to introduce yourself? Like, what are you, who are you, before this goes a little rogue?
Lindsay Branham: Yeah, before I was a son as declared by a psychic that we met on the street in New York City. In my day life, I am an environmental psychologist, an author, and an eco-doula.
Treen: And, uh, Lindsay is here today because even though she just told me right before we got on air that she forgot that she did this, she's actually the reason why I started self pleasuring at age 30 because she bought me my first vibrator.
So you don't, you don't remember this?
Lindsay Branham: Those years are like a little blurry. I remember the fact that that happened. I know it was a Lelo because those are very, you know, like top chic.
GOD: Top notch.
Lindsay Branham: Yeah. Yeah. Like very elegant. And when you're new to something such as this, it's good to like, yeah, feel like you're touching nice materials, you know?
GOD: Shout out to Lelo.
Treen: Lelo, do you want to sponsor us? We will be in touch.
Lindsay Branham: And so I remember purchasing, did I purchase it and had it sent to the house, which was like a very scary thing because we all lived in the same house together and we didn't want anyone to find it. But I can't remember why or when. So help me.
Treen: So you got it for me on Christmas. Like before we left for Christmas break.
GOD: Shout out to Christmas.
Treen: Shout out to Christmas, Jesus's birthday, um, an apt time to start my self pleasure journey and I remember you brought it into my bedroom where I was, you know, living with my ex husband at the time, he wasn't in the room. You brought it in. It was like morning. It was in a black box. And I truly was like, what, what is this thing? And I pulled it out and I still was like, confused. I thought it was a USB charger.
Lindsay Branham: Makes sense.
Treen: Cause it was like one of those red lipstick ones.
Lindsay Branham: It is a USB charger on some level, you know?
GOD: God here. I just want to briefly share that this is a misconception that many early masturbators have. They think, okay, I'm looking at a USB charger, but it's actually the great, you know, however you choose to give yourself pleasure. So for anyone that, you know, looks at USBs, don't worry and don't use that to masturbate.
Lindsay Branham: Yeah. And it's like, is it USB or is it USB-C or is it Firewire? Like the you know, the ports keep changing as Apple keeps charging us for new computers. So I don't know how that also syncs with how we think about this?
Treen: God?
GOD: It's a 3.0 actually.
Lindsay Branham: Yeah. It's like AI.
GOD: I will just say, I do have a confession. When I became the god of masturbation, I actually used my stepdad's back massager as, uh, my first way of getting into that.
Lindsay Branham: Yeah. How was that charged? Was that like normal kind of US plug?
GOD: That was with an electrical socket.
Lindsay Branham: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
GOD: And that's really what took me to the next level of, uh, becoming the God of masturbation.
Lindsay Branham: Yeah, that makes sense.
Treen: Wow. I'm, I'm still feeling a lot of my like, Christian repressed roots coming up here cause I'm like, I've never even thought of that. I mean, I don't have a stepfather, so
Lindsay Branham: Do only stepfathers have those kinds of devices Treen?
GOD: I think it's just a way of, um, getting back at your stepfather, you know, saying, well, I'm going to secretly take this for my own pleasure and then give it back to you. And we can all unpack that.
Treen: We should unpack that. I mean, I have a lot of questions about who God's stepfather is, but I think we should move, move the show along and we can get into that soon.
Treen: I wanted to have masturbation have its own episode today because, in my opinion, self pleasure, self love is a crucial part of not only, you know, my history and journey to reclaim my physical and mental health, but it was connected to my ability to think for myself and to feel connected to myself and therefore feel connected to others and to know what I like and dislike and therefore, shout out to Lindsay, to feel connected to the earth for the first time.
And It's also been a huge part of my spiritual awakening, uh, but I just wanted to mention before we dive in, like, I also know that it's a very taboo and perhaps painful topic for some, and that not everyone's experience of this is the same, and that I'm going to be speaking from my perspective as a formerly very sexually repressed woman who's, um, spent a lot of time in pain in this life and in this body battling chronic autoimmune symptoms and who's been on an ongoing journey with mental and physical health and de-shaming this practice for me has played a huge part in my not only healing, but thriving. So with that. Linds, I know that you grew up in purity culture, more so than me growing up Catholic, and what did your Christian upbringing teach you about your relationship to your body, your relationship to your sexuality, and what did it teach you about masturbation in general?
Lindsay Branham: Yeah, you know, I think, and you mentioned this, but the starting point really is a sense of complete disembodiment. So before even being able to talk about having a relationship with pleasure, there has to be a relationship with one's body. And one's agency in, in the body. And I grew up kind of in the, in a weird sort of mix of the rooms of AA, which has a very expansive spirituality, and then also in Evangelical Christianity, which doesn't, and very much a product of purity culture, meaning pressure to maintain very strict, rigid control of the body because that equated to being approved of and loved by God. And so when sexuality is deeply tied with one's salvation and potential eternal life with God in heaven or not, um, that creates immense fear. So, Christianity, created paranoia, like actual paranoia of the body. I, I really just existed in the mind. So it was like life of the mind. Um, the body was bad and sinful and a vessel of, um, you know, destruction, it would be, especially as a woman, a girl, we were taught that our bodies would make men stumble. So not only was there like a disconnection between relationship with our own self, but then we were also put on the blame of causing men to sin. Um, which is yeah, the
Treen: Like as if they're supposed to walk in a straight line.
Lindsay Branham: Yeah. Yeah. The, and the, the misogyny and patriarchy of that set up, um, becomes not just something that's externally put on us, but is actually then internalized and lived so deeply. Um, so yeah, having no relationship with the body, um, self pleasure was just completely off the table. That was like a foreign concept, like to do so would be to sin and to actually basically declare that you don't love God. So what is a girl supposed to do?
Treen: Yeah, I also shout out to like the fact that we were also as women, we were also responsible for men's sin as well. So we can't sin. But then also if we're too pretty, or if we're too out there, we're also going to be responsible for everybody's sending up in here. And we can't have that on our shoulders as well. God, I heard a sigh from you. Do you want to hop in?
GOD: I’m just so tired of that. You know, it's like, what does that even mean? Like, why do we have to hold that for them? Lindsay, by the way, like you can just have a croissant and be like, yeah, have a good life. Do what you gotta do. And even, you know, some people think, oh, you have to connect with your genitals. Take a great bowel movement. Just do that.
Treen: For sure. Just learn what feels good being in this vessel in general. I mean, I think it's really interesting because I grew up Catholic, and I truly feel like there was just a void. I wasn't taught that my body was the vessel of sin, but I also wasn't really taught that I had anything below the waist anyway, so it's a joke and Lindsay and my friendship that I didn't look at my vulva until I was 30, but I honestly don't remember looking at my vulva until I was 30 because I just felt like I existed from the waist up and that created its own deranged, you know, situation of me walking around this life without even knowing I had a sexuality.
Lindsay Branham: Yeah, I see this disembodiment as a real tool of control by the church, by the Christian church over the last few thousand years that has played a very specific role in perpetuating patriarchy, but then also separating us from the body of the earth, the body of all other living things in the Cartesian mind body split in Europe in the 1700s, 1800s, that set the stage for the puritanical movement, you know, many years later, and the ground had already been laid where the mind was privileged over the body to such a degree that not only is pleasure then separated, so you can't really talk about sexuality without also talking about what does Christianity say about pleasure? Well, nothing. Pleasure is only kind of part of worshiping a, you know, man in the sky. Um, and there can be deep pleasure and devotion. I don't want to discount that. It's devotional practices all around the world are, are gorgeous. Um, and being in kind of love and admiration and ecstasy, um, is beautiful. But yeah, how that ends up affecting the ability to, to be fully alive. And I think that's what we're talking about when we're talking about sexuality. It's like we're robbed - people that have been raised this way or conditioned this way can be robbed of their full aliveness.
GOD: I'm learning so much.
Treen: Yeah, I know.
GOD: I'm learning so much from you two goddesses. I mean, what is this?
Treen: This is a strange other portal of reality we've been in. So we feel really grateful today to be reconciled to you, the God of masturbation.
GOD: Shout out to Riverside.
Treen: Shout out to Riverside for hosting us, for platforming this conversation. God, where does masturbation come from? Since you've designed us for pleasure, what was your intention in creating this form?
GOD: So masturbation really is just a way of lighting your own fire inside. Whether you do that through the touch of your hand, you know, the connection of a USB plug into an electrical socket, taking a bowel movement in the morning. I keep talking about poop.
Treen: You, yeah, you're very, uh, you're very, uh, poop positive.
GOD: Thank you.
Treen: This is a shame free space.
GOD: I'm actually friends with shame. She's a great girl.
Treen: Wow. What an integrative approach to your shadow. Um, God, when was the first time you self pleasured? If you're going to just take us back a couple billion years.
GOD: Yeah, if you, it actually happened to be the year 2008, believe it or not.
Treen: Wow. Okay. So you're a late bloomer as well.
GOD: Yeah. You know, we're all made in the image. So if you think about, um, the year 2008, there was a podcast called WTF, um, which was hosted by Marc Maron, he had, uh, President Barack Obama on. And I'm sharing all this with you because that was a very, um, transformational moment for me.
I actually pleasured myself to the sound of Barack Obama's voice.
Treen: Wow.
GOD: This is not a joke. This is my real origin story.
Lindsay Branham: This is very Fleabag of you.
GOD: Yeah. Right. Exactly. And this was even before Fleabag because I am, you know, eternal. But you think about, you know, what is it about Barack Obama's voice? And, you know, we all have to find our way to whatever it is that is our own Barack Obama's voice that connects us.
Treen: This is amazing. And still, like I said, eye opening for me because my journey only began four years ago. So, God, you're giving me a lot more material to integrate. Lindsay, I want to go back and talk about, do you remember, cause for me, I remember as a kid, age five, I actually experienced like my first sexual urge, but then from like age eight until 20, it was just the great void. And I think that that makes sense. Cause that was when I started, you know, I had my first communion, I was in the church. And so even if Catholicism was less explicit about, I honestly don't even remember ever being, ever hearing the word masturbation in church, but those, that programming was still there. Do you remember before you really were of the age of being able to integrate Christianity of having, um, yeah, just sexuality in your body.
Lindsay Branham: This word repression, I feel like we need to define that. What does it mean to be repressed? We're talking about it and it's like, okay, there was something on the outside that created such constriction of this thing we're calling sexuality or pleasure or aliveness into spaces of the body where I actually had no space to breathe.
And so there wasn't also the developmental kind of wisdom. at that age to be aware that there was something that was repressed because there had never been like a living into that and then it being taken away. So it was just like you said a bit of like a void. Um, and so then taking the cues from like, what's, what are other kids doing at school?
Like, Oh, they like kiss each other or something. Okay. Like maybe I should be doing that. Um, And then what's happening in Christian youth group is something very different, where we're told like, you have to save yourself for marriage, or you are completely banished, like to use a Shakespearean word, like banished from the planet, um, and there will be no man who will want you.
I mean, do you know how scary that is when you're like 15 to be told like, if you make one misstep, you will be unwanted by every male on this planet going forward. Um, yeah, that creates so much fear. I mean, I say the word paranoia, but I mean that like terror, terror to be unwanted. So the threat of like being rejected at that level, there was no kind of like room for exploration that, that could happen for, um, a child of that age.
And so then in Christian youth group, I remember this one day like so clearly because it feels like it exemplifies like the upbringing that I had, but our youth group leader was like, okay, we're going to talk about sexuality. He took this foil covered thing. I didn't know what it was. And he said, if you kiss a boy and he took a pencil and stabbed it into this thing.
And he's like, if you hold hands with someone of the opposite sex. Took another pencil, stabbed the thing. If you dress provocatively, took the pencil, stabbed the thing. He kept doing that over and over until this foil covered sphere started oozing juice, and then he unwrapped it, and it was this orange that he had like stabbed to shreds, and he was like, and this is who you will become unwanted, undesired, unloved by Jesus. Just pulp, basically. I was like, Oh, okay. That's a good lesson. I won't be doing that then. I don't want the pencil treatment, you know, so I was like, got it. Very clear. Um, but you know, there's no ability to understand what that propaganda is doing at that age. And my parents wanted me to be like, felt like church was a good thing. They weren't like that invested in what the messaging was, but there was no kind of like counter to that. And so that was, yeah, that was the programming.
GOD: So sorry you experienced that. I wish I could visit this man. He needs so much loving. And that poor orange.
Treen: Yeah. That poor orange. Yeah, that man needs, needs the backstrap, the back scratcher sent to his house immediately.
Lindsay Branham: You know, unfortunately that, that little move, I think really swept the nation too. I've heard other, other people having had that skit, that lesson.
GOD: A lot of holy oranges.
Treen: So Lindsay, as you deconstructed then from, from Christianity, how did your relationship to your body and your sexuality begin to shift?
Lindsay Branham: So deconstruction, I feel like it deserves a little mention of how that even happened, but I spent my twenties living mostly in Central Africa, working with communities affected by war and violence, mostly in eastern Democratic Republic of Congo. And so witnessing war and violence and the impacts of that on children and women specifically really forced me to reckon with what Christianity was all about and the fundamentalism really it was a kind of like a form of Calvinism Southern Baptist Christianity of predestination so it made no sense to me that there would be these absolutely gorgeous human beings that were predestined to suffer and to suffer like that. So the only kind of way to have integrity as a Christian, a human being, and as a soul was to let Christianity fully die, which was really painful.
That was something I held so deeply for a lot of my life. Um, so for anyone that has kind of been in that space or wrestling with it, it is an existential rupture when your belief system that explains cosmology. So how does the, how is the universe made? A worldview. How does this world function? Personal values. Personal beliefs. Um, it infiltrates really every layer of being. It's a death at a really cosmic level. Um, and so that process has, you know, I would say I'm still in it to a degree. Christianity doesn't ever leave. So as that deconstructed maybe 10 years in, then my body was like, okay, how about we have a relationship?
And it was like a blank canvas. And so for me, before pleasure even came, on board. It was like yoga. So yoga teacher training, um, ecstatic dance, a method called The Class, which people might be familiar with.
GOD: Shout out to The Class.
Lindsay Branham: Embodiment practices that actually like invited me to be in this vessel to feel what's here all, all of it, the good, the bad, the beautiful, um, and as the relationship, it is a relationship between our ourselves and our bodies and as we inhabit ourselves more fully than like pleasure even becomes possible. But pleasure also in a broad sense, like God has said, pleasure with the croissant, pleasure with the earth. It's aliveness. We're talking about eroticism, which as defined by the great Audre Lorde means to just be alive, fully alive, which has to include fully being in this body. Why? You know, billions of years, this universe, and we're here for, what, 60, 70, 80 years in a body, in a form, so that we can experience things. So let's experience them.
Treen: Let's eat the croissant. Yeah, God, where do you think? You know, hearing this and this other God that we were worshiping, where do you think we got it wrong and where you can just give us some good news?
GOD: So the good news is you're here and you are really tuning into what I believe is the truth of, you know, what I'm all about, which is being the monsieur. And like I said earlier, the monsieur being the touch of the hand with the sense of pleasure. Now, does that mean that you need to be masturbating all over the place? Yes, it does. But what does that, what does that look like? What does that feel like? Again, that's eating the croissant. That's, uh, you know, talking to your friend. That's, uh, saying hello to a stranger. Now, where did the other God go wrong? They took it and they twisted that, right? So he said, Hey, if you're going to, uh, show off your aliveness, well, that's threatening to me. I'm going to have to stick with this pencil into an orange, you know? And so we're, we're on, we're, we're following my line of thought, right? I think really, really where, where, you know, it, it just seems like, shout out to men, but, uh, they go off path, right? They feel, Yeah. They feel threatened by the aliveness of, um, of just being here. It's, it's all very scary.
Treen: It is. And I mean, my awakening or my deconstruction was actually provoked by insane chronic pain and chronic fatigue in my body.
And the only reason I was willing to deconstruct a mindset that had made me feel so safe and secure was because I felt like I was dying. And I had no other option but to seek alternative spiritual paths as you know, Linds, because the one was not working. I felt like I had zero life force energy. And I find it really interesting because I grew up as a dancer, so I think that that stoked my aliveness for many years, even though I was sexually unawakened, my expression as a dancer, I think, scratched that itch, as God is saying, like it was keeping my erotic energy fulfilled and actually from age 22 to 30, I stopped dancing. And that's when a lot of the chronic pain in my body started coming. So I think we also need to de-stigmatize this word eroticism as well because it's essential to us living full and healthy lives.
GOD: I love, I love the, the connection to the erotic, you know, sometimes in the morning after I go to the bathroom as I express I, um, I just look at my feet and I think, oh, they're so dry, but that's okay. You know? It can be okay. It's like making it okay.
Treen: I just was, I just got thrown because God, I have never pictured you with feet before. So this is a new, this is new to me.
GOD: Oh, I’m all feet. I'm all feet, Katrina. I'm actually just a foot.
Lindsay Branham: I also just want to say, like, there's this part of me that's like yeah, on one level, the suppression of female pleasure has been a tool of the patriarchy to keep us small, because what would happen if women were fully embodied and fully alive? Watch out for the rest of the world. Like, there's a lot of power there that's been very much, like, buried. At the same time, like, men are not the enemy. And for us to be on this earth in harmony and gorgeousness and pleasure and relationships, same gender, different gender, all gender, like, yes. Um, It requires a liberation for everyone, and so I just want to say that because while I feel that I've spent a lifetime deconstructing what patriarchy has done, now I feel that I'm in a place of like, oh, I want to imagine a world in which everybody is free.
Treen: I think that that's such a good point. And it's, it's precarious talking about these things, but you articulated my stance as well. I think as I, as I have come more alive and as I've reclaimed my life force energy and been connected to my eroticism and my desire, what strikes me so much and how painful it is, is how much men are suffering and to see a man be able to cry, to see a man be able to dance, to see a man be able to express, it moves me to tears because, um, I think that they have suffered from this persona, this archetype as well of having to keep all of that contained, and I just know how much pain that caused me to not be able to just share my essence and I can imagine how much more so they are trapped and suffering, but because that's normalized as, you know, that's how you are connected to your power, how scary that would be to deconstruct as a, as a man.
Lindsay Branham: Yeah and we've really seen that with the abuse of priests towards young children in the Catholic church that seems to be a very like, special hallmark of Catholicism in a way that Christianity hasn't had in the same way just because of the vow of celibacy that priests take, um, which raises interesting questions, again, around like, yeah, there, there's, there's imprisonment there and that lack of freedom. Um, and I don't want to fully discount, you know, a true vow of celibacy. That could be a holy, beautiful thing that someone chooses to take. But when it's imposed like that, potentially by the state, um, the state church kind of as a institution and power structure. So much pain. So much harm can come from that. So I feel like what we're, we're speaking of is like, yes, like we want to feel pleasure and have every being be free. And also we want to see the end of suffering and sexuality kind of twisted and contorted creates so much pain. And so just like feeling like all the people that have been touched by that in some form, which is pretty much everyone because everyone knows someone who knows somebody who's survivor of sexual violence or sexual assault or sexual harassment and whether that's influenced by contorted beliefs perpetrated by the church or not, like we live in a world in which sexuality is used as a weapon all the time.
Treen: I feel like sexual, uh, harm and perversion fetishization does come from, uh, even though I know, God, this is your girl, lady shame, I always felt like if we didn't have shame around these things, and if there was a healthy way to understand how to relate to our bodies and how to relate to others bodies, there would be a lot less harm.
Lindsay Branham: Yea I would hope so. I would hope so.
GOD: It's, it's interesting being God and then, you know, hearing you two and feeling like, okay, are we all God here, you know? Because what I'm really hearing is this, this connection and this, this tuning into all beings being free and even shame being free. So shout out to shame, my girl. Shame, my girl, when, when we're walking side to side, that's when I feel like she is my homegirl, you know what I'm saying? Do I want to dance with shame? No, I'm not interested. I love walking with her. When she's in my business, get out of here, girl.
Lindsay Branham: And also can we - and can we talk about Mary Magdalene as well? I mean, this is a bit of a pivot here, but I'm just thinking about
GOD: Another foot.
Lindsay Branham: You know stories that have been suppressed.
Treen: Another, another big foot of history.
Lindsay Branham: And contorted through time. There's, yeah, potential, um, rewriting of history is really needed. And I'm not making eschatological claims necessarily, but, um, yeah, perhaps there was pleasure in the life of Jesus.
Treen: Perhaps there was pleasure in the life of Jesus. Mic drop.
Treen: How has then deconstruction from Christianity relationship with your body relationship to understanding the erotic pleasure, self pleasure led you into eco-sexuality. And can you explain for those of us who don't know what eco-sexuality is, what that is briefly?
Lindsay Branham: Yeah. So eco-sexuality sounds like extremely spicy and orgasmic, which it could be. Um, but the term was coined by two queer eco activists, Beth Stephens and Annie Sprinkle, and they literally married the earth. and experience climax with earth forms. So very kind of literal, actually, and we go sexuality, meaning they really believe and embody that our bodies are intertied with the body of the earth and so everything is available to us. Now, I don't necessarily look at it through that lens only. Um, I really love how we've been talking about eroticism and so I like to think about eco-eroticism or eco-sensuality, which widens that to basically be a declaration of like my aliveness is because of the earth and we are one, our bodies are one. And if you want to talk about kind of how that can happen, like we're penetrated. Every, every gender is penetrated every day by the earth in the form of oxygen, exhaled by trees, they inhale our CO2, alchemize it, and penetrate us back with oxygen. We are alive because of the earth.
Treen: Wow.
Lindsay Branham: So, just, there are, and there are so many ways that that occurs.
GOD: That is so hot.
Treen: God is turned on.
GOD: It's like I, it's like I've been trying to let people know this, and the way you said that, Lindsay, thank you. So shout out to Lindsay.
Treen: Shout out to Lindsay.
Lindsay Branham: Um, our bodies are 98 percent water. And yet, the 2 percent left creates the forms that we can see each other in and greet each other in. But we are, we are Earth. We are organic life forms. We are actually stardust. A sun exploded billions of years ago, came here, and tiny particles formed these creatures that we are. Like, we are, we are from the sky and we belong to the universe. And so my kind of work now, my like deepest passion, where my aliveness comes from is, um, kind of helping people reimagine that inter belonging and experience it directly because we're talking about being in the body something has to be experienced directly and this love affair with Earth is possible for every being to experience and it reconstitutes everything. It takes us out of this human centric perspective that drives misogyny, patriarchy, racism, all the phobias. Um, and puts us in our rightful place, which is a tiny speck that's from a sun that exploded as a star and died. And look, we're here. It's a miracle. So let's take care of each other.
Treen: I mean, talk about something that's gonna make the, perhaps the Christians feel very anxious, but like that type of perspective, um, you know, really puts us in our place and is very humbling. But with that, then we can engage with reality as it is, as it's presented itself.
Lindsay Branham: Yeah, Christianity really says nothing about the earth. Um, there's a just disappearance of ecological awareness. And I'll just say a phrase that I love so much from one of, Katrina, you're and my teachers, Richard Rohr, shout out, big shout out to that being
Treen: Oh, Ritchie. Ritchie is the main OG.
Lindsay Branham: He has helped many people deconstruct and then find a tradition. But he says nature is the first sacred text. So putting the primacy of the earth back in its rightful place, it actually is a holy book and it's written and we can read it. And it means opening our eyes, opening our senses and being with living beings and that's, that's what it is to read the Bible in my definition now.
GOD: This is so powerful for me as a foot to really understand the the the sacredness of nature. Can I ask you both something?
Treen: Yeah God.
GOD: Have you masturbated on a tree?
Lindsay Branham: No.
GOD: No, we're not going there.
Treen: So God, what is it like then for you to live in this, this universe where, you know, self pleasure is celebrated and you're in touch with your aliveness? Like, what are y'all doing out there in the ethers that us folk on earth are not getting right?
GOD: For, for, for my, myself, it's, it's a, it's easy. It's like, I'm, I'm the wind going through and I'm just this foot that's traveling throughout the air and I’m, I'm looking for people to connect to that aliveness. So, you know, earlier I was thinking about, um, the time that I actually met the Christian God. We were at a diner in the ethers, Jack's Diner. Shout out to Jack's Diner. And we were ordering coffee. Just follow me here, there's a real story. And we're ordering coffee. And I, I thought, you know what. today, I'm going to have sugar and a little bit of cream in my coffee. And the Christian God was like, I'm going to have to withhold from the sugar, I'm on a diet. And that was so interesting to me because I thought, wow, this is how you limit your pleasure. So my goal is to get everybody out there to have some cream and sugar in their coffee. We're following, right?
Treen: We're following. We're following and we're, we're, we're making up for lost time. I don't know if this is actually true or not. But someone once told me that the word masturbation means to make dirty with one's hands. The most commonly defined use of the term is to soften but I was once taught that that word means to make dirty with one's hands. And it was, you know, sort of influenced by the Catholic Church. Regardless, that word has always felt abrasive to me, and I always attributed it to my Christian programming until I learned that. However, I do think it's really important to reclaim a word that in the global human consciousness is symbolic of self pleasure. And so I'm using that word very intentionally on this show because I think that to hear still women talking about masturbation or self pleasure is radical and is permissive to enable others to engage with the topic as well.
Lindsay Branham: Yeah, I think the former word actually sounds like you're hurting yourself. There's something about it that has this, like, angry self harm energy to it. Um, which I don't know many women that actually really enjoy that word. Like even if they don't have an alternative, it's like this always has felt wrong to say. Um, so yeah, what do you, I mean, you just kind of said what you call it now, but what's your relationship like with self pleasure?
Treen: I think it speaks more broadly to us having all different parts of, of self. So, um, I understand that a part of me is animal, is primal, and has been here, has been part of the earth for millions of years, and when I'm feeling that primal energy, I might engage in masturbation.
Uh, I also feel as though I have a soul. I have a connection to higher consciousness. I have a connection to all there is, and when I'm feeling that way, I might be feeling more reverent and slow. And gentle with myself, and I might call it self pleasure. It's definitely been a journey for me to come home to myself to actually spend more time in self pleasure versus masturbation, which I think is interesting, uh, as I've continue to integrate parts of myself and it sounds trite, but authentically love myself, making sure I'm spending time around others that honor me and being able to then honor myself.
I spend more time in self pleasure and I didn't understand this four years ago when I started masturbating, but I would have friends that would tell me like, Oh, I, uh, self pleasured for hours. I had seven orgasms and I was in a little cocoon with the divine and I saw colors and I was like, that's interesting because I was literally doing that for four minutes and I had one orgasm and it was great, but I did not see God.
So I think it speaks to, yeah, my own maturity, uh, as a practice and it's been evolving as I've been evolving. God, I just wanted to ask really quick, when we orgasm, I know the French call it petit mort, or little death. And do we actually see you?
GOD: You know, as you were talking about, I remember your friend who masturbated for that long or was self pleasuring, I, I saw her. She was, she, she arrived and we, we got to, um, you know, catch up briefly. And so you just didn't stick around long enough, you know, so I'd love to see you again in that waiting room. It's more of like you're, you're hanging out in a waiting room, but the music is very good.
Treen: I'm going to work on my stamina so I can pop in for a longer, longer chat.
GOD: But sometimes, you know, three minutes, seven hours, what's the difference really? It's just about, it's about that lighting of the fire within.
Lindsay Branham: And I feel kind of this need to say to people that are might be listening and feel like actually they're really far away from what we've been talking about this whole episode that self pleasure or self embodiment can start really small, like, for example, I started like this, like, before getting in the shower, dry brushing my own skin and paying attention to doing that. Like, what is, what does my body actually feel like and how can I greet my body like a sacred being that it is? So it can start with, like, who is this creature? What is this animal form before I even feel comfortable to, like, do anything further. Also, like, after you shower, putting lotion or oil on yourself slowly and mindfully.
GOD: I love lotion.
Lindsay Branham: With like sacredness and reference because I think that's what we're talking about. This is a sacred holy relationship which, thank you God for introducing us to that idea, um, it just doesn't mean that that holy relationship is for any being besides this one first and then for whoever and whatever we want to have relationship with, whether that's a tree or another human or a croissant or a foot. I used to do this as a way to like, just tell my heart I was safe, but put honey, actually rub it on my own skin, and then put little bits of lavender and just imagine that I could kind of be in sacred relationship with this being. So that could be anything for you, but I invite people to consider. Yeah, how would you like to create sacred relationship with your body and to listen, because your body will say things and give you clues.
GOD: Oh my gosh, that image of you with the honey, you know, I see a lot of people connect with their body in different ways, but there's something about honey with lavender that's just, how sweet is that? As a foot, I'm just putting oils on.
Lindsay Branham: I mean, it could be a 7 dollar like drink at your local coffee shop. Or oat milk latte, or you can just make that right here.
Treen: I think it's really important to also mention that regardless of who you are, going back to this idea of how sex and sexuality has been, um, presented in the world has been relegated to the shameful, the sinful, and then the disconnection that we have with our own bodies. I think in my experience, that's led then to when I'm with partners. Well, I don't even know what I like. So how can they know what I like? So I think that cultivating a self love, self pleasure practice is really essential in terms of cultivating one's own confidence agency. And like I said, it's been a gateway for me to, to a spiritual awakening. Uh, and I've seen that as I've, again, grown in that connection to self, uh, I've put myself in less harmful scenarios because as you know, Lindsay, I have dated some folks who have not been the kindest to me and have not been the nicest to me, and I was really surprised that those experiences all happened at age 30. Like, in many ways, I felt like, Oh, I'm an adult, why am I in an abusive relationship? But it was because before that point, there was just a bandaid on sexuality, so I didn't even have to engage with it. And then when I opened the wound, uh, It was festering and I didn't have any tools to be able to advocate for myself. So I just went along with what somebody else's body felt pleasure doing. So it's been a, it's been quite a journey. Uh, and I think that it's really connected to, um, our safety as well.
Lindsay Branham: Yeah. Yeah. The danger, there is a danger of having a disconnected relationship with our bodies and it's because then other people have a free reign to this body or could harm that body. Um, because I am actually really disconnected from where boundaries are because I don't know what feels good, and I don't know what doesn't feel good. Um, and when I was in high school, I, yeah, I unfortunately was in a scenario with someone, my boyfriend at the time, for a year, in which, um, I would, I would never do that again, let's say but where I, yeah, I guess I would say I, I prioritized what he said felt good to him over me, because I had no idea what that was for me. And that has led to having to kind of heal and recover from that for the rest of my adult life. Um, so I'm not putting the blame on myself, but I see that as a real direct product of, um, Christianity's harm, um, by disconnecting me from my body.
Treen: You know, another point that I want to make that you kind of brought up is that I know this episode is going to be territory that some folks can't even engage with. And I, I know at least for me, how scary it felt to even, as I had been deconstructing because I needed to for my own health, even when you gave me the vibrator, it stayed in my nightstand drawer for months. And it truly was only because I got so sick that I had nothing else to turn to that I was open to it. So I just want to share for folks who happen to listen to this, who find me completely blasphemous and heretical, like, it's okay. I can be that for you. I'm just sharing the experience that has brought me so much more aliveness and peace, but it's been hard one, you know, a lot of, uh, a lot of decisions and a lot of, uh, Loss has occurred in the plight for my own sovereignty and agency and aliveness.
GOD: It's about, it's about what's feeling good to you, right? So if something doesn't feel good, then we want to back away from that. If something doesn't feel connected, if something doesn't make you feel alive and free, then that is the space of pleasure that we're actually, you know, that I as a foot am putting my myself down on.
Lindsay Branham: Exactly. I mean, I guess I would also add that in Christianity, the realm of sexuality is just for sex in marriage. That's the only place that this can take place. And that's the only direct kind of literal reference to pleasure. So already what we've been talking about is for some like very outside of the paradigm of what's in the New Testament. So it just raises questions of like, well, is sex just for marriage? Um, and I would say it's not. And so I almost think it's important to say that because, um, it's not just like what feels good or doesn't feel good, but it's, it's really kind of questioning the rules of where these things can take place.
Treen: Linds, do you feel like you've shared what your relationship with you know, self pleasure and God is today?
Lindsay Branham: My relationship with pleasure now is just so wide, you know, it includes the awe and wonder of looking into the face of someone I love and as well as looking into the sky, which is also someone, something I love. Pleasure is available all the time, and I think that it's a form of, uh, of resistance in the times we're living in, um, and, you know, Adrienne Maree Brown would say that, she wrote the book Pleasure Activism, so pleasure is also not just about sex, this is about pleasure. So, anti-racism. This is about, uh, non-violence. This is about being anti-war. Um, we're talking about reclaiming aliveness. And so I just want to put it in that frame because for me, now it's gotten that big. So I practice pleasure in all ways that is dedicated to the liberation of all beings. And I think that's what we all, um, get to participate in. And, you know, it's almost Spring when we're recording this, I don't know when this will come out, but we're about to see life like burst through the earth. And already in LA, we have lemons falling off trees and oranges, like, you know, falling out of these like beautiful trees that you can like put all over your face and like smell and, um, you know, there is, there's just like so much beauty available for all of us all the time. And perhaps if we could take that in deeply, like there'd be less of a need for humans to cause other humans pain because it wouldn't be coming from a deficit and lack of aliveness in ourselves.
Treen: Well, before we wrap up, I wanted to take you both God and Lindsay through some rapid fire facts that I found on a quick Google search about the history of masturbation. Comments are welcome. So, the behavior predates humans by tens of millions of years, but the evolutionary purpose is less clear, scientists say, as to why we've been doing this. Apes were doing it before us.
GOD: Classic.
Treen: Classic apes. There are depictions of male and female masturbation in prehistoric rock paintings around the world, so that reaffirms this has been done way, way, way, way, way before us. Unlike the Sumerians and ancient Egyptians, the ancient Greeks regarded masturbation as uncivilized, suitable for slaves, barbarians, and women. So, it was suitable for us, which I think is great. Um, like I said, the most commonly used verb for masturbation is to soften. I don't know why, why would that be? Because you've just become sort of like a pool.
Lindsay Branham: Well, if you're really tense, you can't, nothing's going to happen, is it?
Treen: And then this one I thought was really funny. Diogenes Laërtius, shout out to him, fourth century cynic philosopher, often masturbated in public.
GOD: Great guy.
Treen: Which was considered scandalous.
GOD: He was actually quite, um, an introverted, uh, man. Doesn't have a good rep. I might have had a crush on him.
Treen: Well, when people confronted him over doing this in public, he would say, if only it were as easy to banish hunger by rubbing my belly. So.
Lindsay Branham: That sounds like a complicated moment.
Treen: Sounds troubled.
GOD: I'm attracted to really complex people.
Treen: I am too God. Did you know that masturbation was diagnosed as a mental health disorder until 1972, it was, it was decided it was normal human behavior in the DSM.
GOD: American Medical Association. Just a bunch of nerds.
Treen: I know. And then, like you said, Lindsay, the early church, actually, masturbation is not even really in the Bible. And it wasn't until 1054 that Pope Leo condemned masturbation as bad. So there were hundreds of years that the church was going on and this wasn't seen as sinful or sinful.
Lindsay Branham: But there was no, um, USB chargers then?
Treen: Right.
GOD: Exactly Lindsay but there were branches on the trees.
Treen: God the foot, thank you so much for holding space for us today and for continuing to de-shame something that I've held so much embarrassment and pain over. And I wanted to just share again that today's guest was Lindsay Branham. Linds, what are you up to? How can people follow you? How can they support you?
Lindsay Branham: Thank you for having me Treen. This has been -
Treen: Love you. Of course.
Lindsay Branham: So I do a lot of wisdom and medicine of the earth retreats and. People would be welcome to join. There'll be one happening at Esalen in August and another at Kripalu in Massachusetts in September. You can follow me on Instagram, lindsaylaurenne , and sign up for my newsletter with events and things like that, and I'm also in the middle of writing a book about a lot of what we just talked about. It's called Heartwood, how to heal our relationship with ourselves and the earth. And it integrates a lot of, um, how our chronic, my chronic health, we didn't talk about that, but I also have a chronic health story, um, is tied with, with, um, bonding and deep intimacy and eroticism with, with the earth. So that'll be coming out with Sounds True in 2025. And yeah and if people want to talk about earth love, I would love to talk to you.
Treen: This is your girl. And today's omniscient commentator, today's God, was played by Ali Levin. Ali, can you come on camera? Yay! Hi, God! Can you share how folks can support your comedy and how they can follow you?
Ali Levin: Yeah, so thank you, Lindsay and Katrina, for having me. I am a human woman, um, and you can follow me on Instagram at alilevinhere. Uh, and I, I also just am somebody that believes in the power of self pleasure. So as a human, I think, um, I'm so glad I got to be able to hear a little bit more about what you all are, uh, sharing.
Treen: Well, thank you everyone for being with us today. Please stay tuned to the rest of this seven episode series, and until then, stay naughty.
Ali Levin: Yeah.
Treen: Thank you so much for listening to the Naughty by Nature podcast. Did you like that and want to enjoy it all again? Well, we've got visuals, baby. Watch and subscribe to our YouTube channel at nxnpod. Also hit the follow button here to be alerted to following episodes and take one tiny second to tell us what you think with a rating or review.
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