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The WorkWell Podcast™ is back and I am so excited about the inspiring guests we have lined up. Wellbeing at work is the issue of our time. This podcast is your lens into what the experts are seeing, thinking, and doing.
Hi, I am Jen Fisher, host, bestselling author and influential speaker in the corporate wellbeing movement and the first-ever Chief Wellbeing Officer in the professional services industry. On this show, I sit down with inspiring individuals for wide-ranging conversations on all things wellbeing at work. Wellbeing is the future of work. This podcast will help you as an individual, but also support you in being part of the movement for change in your own organizations and communities. Wellbeing can be the outcome of work well designed. And we all have a role to play in this critical transformation!
This podcast provides general information and discussions about health and wellness. The content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast. The podcast owner, producer and any sponsors are not liable for any health-related claims or decisions made based on the information presented or discussed.
Jen Fisher: [00:00:00] The WorkWell podcast series is back and I'm so excited about the inspiring guests we have lined up. Wellbeing at work is the issue of our time. This podcast is your lens into what the experts are seeing, thinking, and doing. When we talk about emotional intelligence at work, we often miss a crucial perspective, how culture and identity shape our emotional experiences.
What happens when we expand our understanding of EQ to include diverse lived experiences? How can this deeper awareness help create truly inclusive workplaces that honor different emotional experiences and expressions? This is the WorkWell podcast series. Hi, I'm Jen Fisher, and today I'm thrilled to be talking with Farrah Harris.
She's a licensed psychotherapist, workplace well being expert, and CEO of Working Well Daily. Her book, The Color of Emotional Intelligence, explores how race and culture shape our emotional experiences at work and what [00:01:00] that means for creating psychologically safe workplaces.
This episode of the Work Well Podcast is made possible because of our friends at Lyra Health. Lyra Health is a premier global workforce mental health solution trusted by leading companies like Starbucks, Morgan Stanley, Lululemon, and Zoom. Lyra provides personalized care to over 17 million people with fast access to evidence based providers and tools that deliver proven results, including faster recovery, and reduced health care costs.
This season, Lyra and the WorkWell podcast are teaming up to bring you more insights on how to build a thriving work culture for today and the future. We'll be bringing you cutting edge data and research on workplace mental health and well being, and we'll have some Lyra experts occasionally join us to share their perspectives on workforce mental health and creating psychologically safe and [00:02:00] effective work.
environments. Find out more at LyraHealth. com forward slash WorkWell. Thank you to Lyra for helping us elevate this season of the WorkWell podcast. Farah, welcome to the show. I am so happy to be here. Yeah, we we've been talking about it forever. And like you said, when the time was right, we're going to make it happen.
So here we are. I want our listeners to get to know you if they don't already. So please tell me a little bit about yourself. And then also What was the inspiration behind, you know, leading you to explore this intersection of emotional intelligence, mental health, and cultural identity in the workplace?
Sure, so I am I'm going to, I feel like I'm going to work backwards. You know, like I am a wife and I'm a mother of three kiddos. Uh, I'm a sister and a daughter and I am, I I've [00:03:00] joked around that I'm a reluctant entrepreneur. So I got into this begrudgingly, but my husband was like, I think this is where you're supposed to be.
And I'm in agreement now that this is where I'm supposed. to be, uh, I have a background in marketing and in psychotherapy. And so I had a private practice for about 10 years and shifted over to what I say, work beyond the couch. So I was like, okay, this is great during the one on one, but I'm wondering if there's more work to be done, um, and greater impact by actually speaking to the places where.
My clients work at, uh, and see if I can help improve at least this area of their lives. Um, and I guess that leads me into how I am in this place of intersectionality of emotional intelligence, or as I like to call it, just EQ mental health and, and, you know, cultural well being and, um, [00:04:00] in the workplace was EQ really fascinated me as, as a skill set that I.
I believe all of us should possess because it's just really knowing yourself and having a better idea of why you feel the way you feel and why you do what you do. And as I shared as a psychotherapist, I really leaned towards, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy and narrative therapy because I want to know, like, why do you think like this?
And you might be thinking this way because of a story that I would love for you to share with me about, like your family of origin and your background and stuff. And I saw how the skill set of emotional intelligence really married well with those, you know, clinical techniques and. People go to work. So I was thinking, okay, well, not only are people struggling with their interpersonal relationships or familial [00:05:00] relationships, you know, with with friends and family, but people are also struggling with how they related.
To the folks that they worked with and, you know, living here in the United States, I often saw how we didn't necessarily work well, not just in terms of like how we care for ourselves with, you know, you know, this very well in terms of like burnout and all of that, but also just that we didn't work well with each other, just really understanding differences and stuff.
So it just kind of melded together. And though I. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know it then. I got diagnosed with ADHD a couple of years ago, but I didn't realize that the way my brain works in terms of connecting dots very quickly and very easily is another reason why there's so much intersectionality in the work that I do.
You know, now recognizing like, Oh, the reason why I get it is because this is just how my brain works. I see how EQ, well being, diversity, equity, inclusion, like they're all [00:06:00] interconnected. And the more we understand their intersection, hopefully, the better we are able to actually address these issues.
Jen Fisher: There's so many things I want to ask you and that's why you're on the podcast today. Um, so thank you for sharing that and I want to kind of go right into these stories and these narratives that come from our place of origin and how we are raised. Can you talk about that relationship, that intersectionality, if you will, between our personal mental health and the organizations in which we are all, you know, working in or a part of and kind of the interplay or the impact they have on one another?
Yeah. Okay.
Jen Fisher: I told you I was going to go right in.
So going from the clinical perspective, just on the individual level, more often than not, when people go to therapy, they don't [00:07:00] really want to talk about. Their past, right? They just want to talk about their issues that they're having here now, and they're not always willing to, you know, peel the layers and go deeper and go, well, you know, maybe these current issues that you're having with this person or with this situation.
Possibly comes from, you know, something that happened to you when you were five, right? And understanding that our first social system was our family, you know, whether it was our guardians, our foster parents, or, you know, our blood related relatives, we've learned what was okay, what was not okay, what emotions were accepted, what was not okay.
Emotions weren't. I call them our emotional narratives. You know, when we learned about feelings and if you grew up in a family in a household where it was people pleasing or love was withheld or you swept things under the [00:08:00] rug when you grow up and you now are an adult and you're in the workplace the same way that you learned About emotions are going to be presented in this now new social system that we call the workplace.
And so if you are a leader, and you've learned how to be a people pleaser, that's going to be a problem because that's going to impact. You know, your team's trust, because you're more than likely are going to be conflict avoidant. And so if you're conflict avoidant, then how do I believe that you're actually going to address an issue in a timely manner?
And if I can't trust you to handle things in a timely manner, then that's going to erode, you know, safety in the team, like all these things play out. And so, you know, it's interesting where, you know, for so many years, we've been told to leave emotions at the door. And I think that's very funny, because It's really certain emotions they want you to leave at the door.
[00:09:00] We want you to be a happy employee. He was like, ah, happiness is an emotion, you know, um, so. We actually have to understand that the full person comes in and they're coming in with their stuff and they're going to view the workplace, first and foremost, as a social system. And they're going to try to figure out where do they fit in?
Is it safe? How do I navigate the space? And that's going to impact culture. So if you have a whole bunch of people. people pleasing people. There is probably going to be a lack of safety in that place. A lot of like nice nastiness that might happen. A lot of passive aggressiveness that might be in the space.
Um, you know, issues always talked about but never really dealt with. Um, a lack of transparency. So we have to recognize that our individual stuff that comes with us everywhere we go. And so every workplace is just a social system that replays our own individual narratives [00:10:00] collectively. So it's fun.
Jen Fisher: It is.
I mean, you know, the human condition is fun, right? So with, with that, as kind of the, the context, this continuum or this journey that we've been on from a workplace wellbeing perspective, and It has certainly changed, evolved, morphed, um, become lots of things over the last several years in particular. What do workplaces or leaders need to understand about workplace well being, particularly when it comes to cultural differences?
Hmm. That's a good question, Jen. Um, I, I think back to, and I don't remember which, What was like the title of this grad course, but it was so important in learning how each culture addresses mental health, [00:11:00] right? So, um, some cultures are very expressive and can talk about their feelings. You can talk about, um, you know, their, their struggles.
And then there's other cultures that the way that they talk about their. Um, how can I say their quote unquote issues is not going to be I'm depressed, um, or I'm anxious, but they may always present like a, a physical issue, like, um, or something somatic like, oh, I, I, I keep having stomach pains or I have migraines.
Um, and so when you start recognizing that each culture. Addresses mental health and well being differently, then you start recognizing, okay, how do we in a workplace address it and recognize, hey, when when Sally says this, I'm understanding that this might [00:12:00] come off differently than when Jacob, you know, presents and that's even on a, you know, male, female relationship and so I think, And we, we said this, you know, offline when I was bringing up Sarah Noel Wilson and, um, and her and her work, but I, I love how she has challenged us to be curious and workplaces aren't curious enough to recognize.
Yes. You might be, um, for example, a woman of Asian descent, but that doesn't mean that every Asian country has the same culture. And that doesn't mean that even within the same, say, Filipino, that doesn't mean that each family within that culture acts the same. So I do think, you know, when we break down cultural awareness within an organization, it also needs to be broken down.
Um, [00:13:00] by teams, you know, so as a leader, do you just know their individual, do you know who's working on your team? Do you understand what well being means for them? How do they address their stress? How do they express their emotions? Because you can assume because they're hispanic that they're going to, you know, act a certain way and they don't, um, you know, um, I even think about, I'm probably going to misquote it, but it was like, you know, when you meet one autistic person, you've just met one autistic person.
Yeah. So I think we have to. Understand the general expressions of mental health and well being of cultures, but then also just really be patient and curious enough to understand how that presents for the individual that you work with.
Jen Fisher: Yeah, and not making broad assumptions, stereotypes. Yeah, yeah. So, and I guess this.
Kind of brings me to so many of the topics in your [00:14:00] wonderful book, The Color of Emotional Intelligence. But I think one of the things that you continue to reinforce for all of us is that this idea of EQ is, is overhyped, yet misunderstood. And so can you elaborate on, first, what you mean by that? And then, What are these critical aspects of EQ or of emotional intelligence that we're overlooking that are so important?
Yeah, we, we're hearing this term and it's been coming more and more popular, um, as, as a need as a topic or a skill set that more organizations are trying to train, you know, their employees and their leadership team with, but it's, it's always, you know, yeah, you need to have high EQ and, and, and leaders have high EQ and it's, It's, it's so much more than productivity, um, and output.
[00:15:00] Um, and there's also, unfortunately, a lot of people who believe they have high emotional intelligence, um, and they do not. And so there's this assumption of being self aware, but, you know, I always ask the question like, okay, you think you're patient, let me ask your partner or let me ask your kids and would they, you know, answer in the affirmative, you know, it's.
It's really being able to have the feedback that confirms and affirms, um, how you are landing on other people and the things that are often overlooked, um, when it comes to emotional intelligence is how it can be used as something that is needed for emotional accountability, you know, to recognize like when you mess up and you step in poop that you go, I was, okay.
Quick at responding, I was, you know, uh, impulsive or I, I didn't take a moment to consider all of the things that emotional accountability and how it [00:16:00] ends up impacting the other person. You know, the recipient of your bad behavior is super important, um, you know, recognizing the power dynamics that are at play.
You know, certain people are using their emotional intelligence, especially those who are historically and systemically marginalized. As a tool of self preservation and survival. So I'm going to possibly, you know, to minimize conflict with a person who I believe is in a senior level role to not really use my voice.
And so it seems like it's this high level of empathy and, um, social awareness, but in the same token, that person is actually minimizing their. Self awareness and honoring and acknowledging their pain or their frustration, or, you know, their emotion that they feel is not safe to express and to understand what we've just been talking [00:17:00] about the cultural sensitivity around it, that emotions are deeply shaped by culture and our upbringing and this skill is often promoted as like this very universal skill, but.
It's it is very nuanced. It is impacted and influenced by our individual experiences and culture and we figure out how to adapt accordingly and it goes far beyond just being emotionally aware. It's just it's also being culturally aware and I would also say, you know, that there's this misconception of EQ as it Something that you can use to be manipulative and yeah, this has been an interesting conversation I've had on and offline with a few people where they're saying, you know, the people in power have high IQ.
It's the people in power in these organizations that are, you know, causing, you know, these, these issues. [00:18:00] And I say that true high IQ does not cause harm. Because one of the domains of emotional intelligence is empathy, and we're looking for compassionate empathy, not just cognitive empathy, not just being able to go, I can, I know that if I say this, this probably will elicit this type of emotion, because I attribute that to like a used car salesman or like a, um, Bernie Madoff, right?
What can I say to make you trust me? Because I know what words to to to, you know, manipulate your emotion to get you to do what I want you to do. But that can't truly be high EQ. Because what that is showing is that you have not regulated your ego, and that you actually don't care about this other person, you're doing something that will benefit you in the end.
So it's being able to have some knowledge Of the competencies within the skill set, but it's not necessarily operating with all four [00:19:00] cylinders. You know, self awareness, self management, social awareness and relationship management. All four of those cylinders are not at its highest level. Um, it's just being able to know.
just enough to be dangerous.
Jen Fisher: Yeah, you talk about this as kind of this strength skill. And when I think about so much of my own experience, and when we've talked about people that we believe are high EQ, especially in the workplace, it's almost like we talk about them, like, oh, they have this ability to You know, stay calm under pressure and, you know, like not lose their cool and, you know, not have a temper or, you know, be able to stay focused when things are really stressful.
And while that's. Part of it, some of those people are, you know, dying on the inside, right? I mean, they're, they're keeping that stuff in, in a way, you know, as a, as a, as a means to kind of appear calm, but they're not [00:20:00] really calm. It's like the, you know, the duck or whatever it is under the water, it looks like nice and serene on the top.
And then you look underwater and it's paddling for its life. Right? Um, can you, can you speak to that a little bit?
I love that. Oh, my gosh, yes. I actually, I remember having a conversation with a woman who I think was pushing back against EQ a little bit because, you know, and I'm always curious about why something bristles someone because of course, there's a narrative in their mind.
And what I realized was that she was feeling exactly what you said that, you know, to have high EQ means that you're cool, calm and collected all the time. And I was like, but why is that important to you? Like, why is this that bristle you? And it, it came out that she was just a very, very sensitive woman.
And she viewed her tenderness as a [00:21:00] strength as she should. And so she was assuming because I'm tender, because I may be able to cry, quote unquote, easily, then I must not have high EQ because I'm so emotional. And so. You know, it's always interesting after you write a book and you go like, Oh, man, I'm, I probably could have elaborated a little bit more.
Jen Fisher: Oh, yeah, I know that feeling.
Continues to evolve. Right. And so, um, I had to let her know that it's, it's having high IQ doesn't mean that you always Get it right. It means that you write what you get wrong and that you, you can have a low emotional reaction, like a low EQ reaction. You just want to make sure that you rebound with a high EQ response.
So like the traditional view of EQ is like, okay, I'm going to stay calm, you know, cool, calm, collected. And as you said, you know, like the, the duck, okay. You know, like [00:22:00] paddling, paddling, paddling, paddling. But EQ as a skill is how do you own your voice so you can acknowledge your frustration? Um, but you just make sure that you acknowledge it in a respectful way, you know, and that you go, You know what?
This is a very frustrating situation guys, you know, so if you're in your on your team and there's something that happens and It's throwing everybody off, but you still make sure that you are staying solution focused and goal oriented, and you're empathizing with other people's frustrations. Like, yeah, I understand that this is what's going on here.
Um, it's unfortunate that you, you know, maybe it's a team member who missed the mark on something, and you're giving feedback in a constructive way. This is where you're asking questions, right? How do you get to the root cause of the situation and you're problem solving, but it's not dismissing and ignoring the real feelings.
It's just not making [00:23:00] or should I say, it's making sure that you're not letting the feelings dictate how you move and how you act. I call it walking the dog like you're making sure that your emotions aren't walking you, but you're walking. And that takes strength because oftentimes it's either we hide how we really feel or we completely explode.
Right. And having it as a strength skill is saying, I am really disappointed that this happened at the same time. How can we move forward? You know, and, and being able to Even ask for a moment. So leaders, sometimes if something's going on, sometimes you just need to practice the pause. And it's like, you know what, I need a moment to process this so that we can actually have a fruitful conversation, um, instead of trying to have a conversation while you are literally feeling the emotion, like you need moments to process.
Jen Fisher: Yeah, for me, that's one of the most [00:24:00] powerful things that I've ever learned is the ability to say, you know what, I, I don't have an answer or a response to that right now, or I can't give you an answer or a response to that right now that I'm going to later be proud of. And so give me a moment to come back to you so that, you know, we can have a productive conversation about this and, um, scary as hell to do it.
I mean, especially the first few times, but even probably every time, but man, what a difference it can make.
I mean, where did we learn that we have to have the answers all the time?
Jen Fisher: I don't know, but we learned it. We definitely learned it. And so unlearning, unlearning it is, is, is really, is really powerful.
I want to kind of go back to. This cultural lens that we've been talking about, and one of the things that I love, I mean, you have so many incredible analogies, but you have this analogy about chicken being prepared differently across cultures, and I [00:25:00] just, I mean, I love this analogy.
Yeah, we don't season our chicken the same.
We do not. We do not. And, you know, so in my book, you know, I share this funny exchange between Oprah Winfrey and this, this woman who's given her some chicken to taste and Oprah's not feeling the chicken. And, um, you know, she's like, is there at least salt and pepper? And she's like, no. And she's like, oh, okay.
And so I think when we come from, um, Different backgrounds and how we make meals, specifically chicken, you know, there are some who may like curry. Some may like it Cajun. Some may just like it with salt and pepper. Some like it boiled. Some like it fried. There's so many ways. It's chicken, but like there's so many different ways to make it and it's usually based off of like how we learned how to make it, you know, from our, you know, grandparents or our parents, right?
whatever. Um, and it's based off of [00:26:00] our, you know, flavor and taste buds and all those things. And I'm like, if something as basic as chicken can have so many varieties of ways that it can be cooked and presented and prepared. Why do we think that a skill set, any skill set, but specifically in our conversation today, emotional intelligence would wouldn't be the same way that we would look at the skill and we would view, for example, you know, um, empathy.
The same way when for some cultures, empathy might be, I'm going to give you a bowl of fruit. And, uh, and that is me showing that I recognize that you feel down, you feel sad, but I'm not going to ask you what's going on. I'm just going to give you this as this gift, as this token that I see you. Somebody else could be like, why did you give me this bowl of [00:27:00] fruit?
What's wrong with you? I don't get it. Um, we can't have this universal view of emotional intelligence because I do feel that this is an anemic view of the of the skill and that there's so much more nuance and so much more depth and breath. And so as. Um, a black woman to a white woman, how do you use emotional intelligence now together as two women, you and I both are probably going to be thinking, what's my level of safety in here?
How do I present myself? Now, you might play up your femininity to quote unquote, decrease, you know, the threat that you might think is in the room, and I may play up being more dominant, you know, to quote unquote, you know, match energy. But both of us are using our emotional intelligence, we're trying to read the room, but the way that we address it is going to be different based off of [00:28:00] our personality, our experiences, what we've been told.
And so that's why I say like, you know, if we're going to season our chicken different, We need to also look at a skill set and go, you can't teach everybody the same thing. You can give them the competencies, but you also have to be aware that there's presuppositions and identities and all this extra nuance that's going to impact how the person expresses the skill in their reality.
Jen Fisher: You might hate me for saying this, but if all anybody takes away from this discussion today is Remember that the chicken is prepared differently across cultures. It has been I mean sounds silly But maybe not because maybe that's why you told the story It's probably why you told this story, but it you're in the back of my head, you know when I'm in different situations And I'm going okay.
Maybe I don't understand what's going on. Maybe I don't fully grasp What the other person's experience is, you know, but it's, I'm always remembering the chicken and that kind of brings me back to my EQ. So [00:29:00] that works for me. Thank you. I don't know if that was your intended outcome, but that's what you got.
I love it. I want to go a little bit deeper on that, and the example that you just used about you're a black woman, I'm a white woman, if we walk into a room of men, and just kind of, we might have some shared experiences, we clearly have very different experiences, but one of the things that you also talk about that I've heard others talk about, I think probably everyone listening to, is this, this emotional text, if you will, of not being able to Show up as your authentic self, but having to kind of show up differently to meet the needs in a specific room of people or in a specific situation.
Can you talk about that a little bit?
Yeah, it's not just that, you know, of like how you need to show up. Yeah, if I got it
Jen Fisher: wrong, please correct me.
You didn't get it wrong. You just kind of gave a bit of it. So the other bit would be The [00:30:00] processing of doing said things, like say you're neurodivergent and the masking that has to be done when you're around neurotypicals, for example, uh, forced eye contact that's draining.
And so, you know, if you're having to pay attention to someone by giving them eye contact, but that's not how you process. So now the energy that could have been used to come up with great ideas, you know, um, uh, connecting dots, like that's lost because you've used all of that mental energy and using all of that blood to flow to a different part of your brain, just so you can focus on eye contact, because culturally, that is what you're supposed to do, that it's a sign of respect.
If you're looking someone in the eye. So the emotional tax would be if you didn't look at the person in the eye, and now that they're possibly judging you or think you're being rude and you're now wondering, like, oh, should I've given more eye contact? Should I said something like all of those things? I think about an experience [00:31:00] where, um.
Another, a black woman that I was speaking to, uh, she said that she was carrying a box, went into her, uh, office building, a white gentleman held the door open for her. They exchanged pleasantries, uh, they get into the elevator, uh, they continue to have small talk. They get off on the fourth floor. He turns left, she turns right and to the left is the welfare office.
And so as she's heading to her office on the right, he goes, Oh, excuse me. Where are you going? And she goes to my office and then he goes, Oh, Oh, excuse me. I'm sorry. And then he goes on his way. Well, she now goes to her office and she calls her girlfriend and shares the exchange with her because now she's wondering, well, did he assume because I'm a black woman that I was going to the welfare office?
Or was he just asking a very, you know. Simple rhetorical question. That's the tax. The wondering if.
Jen Fisher: Yeah.
Well, why did they do that? Why did they ask that? Why [00:32:00] did they say that? And it's especially hard in the workplace where maybe it's a colleague that you really like you've had great experience with.
And then they say something that's racist or misogynist or homophobic. And you're like, did they mean that? Or did I am I misinterpreting? That is exhausting. And so now you've had this exchange and instead of going right back to whatever task you were doing for work, you're processing that.
Jen Fisher: Yeah. Um, I'm processing this cause I think that that is so important and so powerful to understand.
And I guess what I'm wondering is for someone. Who's emotional expression style is different, right? From their workplace's dominant culture or just dominant culture, period. Mm hmm. What does somebody do to, to kind of be prepared for that or offset that, if you will, to [00:33:00] take care of themselves?
Well, like the example that I gave, what this woman did is, is what I would encourage other people to do is like a friend.
Yeah. Call a friend. Who's your safe place? Yeah. You know, um, and if it's not a safe person that you go to, um, what is it? That you do that works well for you that brings you a sense of calm. Is it going for a walk? Is it listening to music? Is it praying? Is it having a moment of meditation? Whatever it is that you know that brings you back to self, do that.
And of course, self care can't be done outside of community. So being able to know you can go to someone and say, Hey, you know, I just had this exchange and I just want to No, I'm not crazy. Am I? Or like, am I, you know, and sometimes it's not even to, to question, you know, you know exactly what happened and you're, you're not necessarily feeling like you're being gaslit.
Like something [00:34:00] happened, you know, it's a micro insult or microaggression, but you just need to be able to process with someone who can just validate and acknowledge your feelings because That person who microaggressed you didn't value your feelings and didn't validate and didn't see you and didn't care.
So going to a place where you are at least have a moment where your feelings. are heard, valued, and, and acknowledged. I never want anyone who has these moments to gaslight themselves, you know, and go like, oh, it's no big deal. No, what you feel is what you feel.
Jen Fisher: Along those lines, many organizations have emotional intelligence training, maybe it's baked into some sort of DEI training.
How do we make these trainings realistic? More culturally relevant, more culturally informed, and then kind of not make, you know, people aren't made to [00:35:00] feel that they need to, to brush it under the rug or deal with it all on their own.
I think we've, we've seen a lot of struggles within organizations because of a lack of not just buy in, but understanding. So, you know, it's like, yeah, we can do this EQ training. But I don't fully understand why it's really important. And I also feel like we've, we've done a lot of training to quote unquote, increase professional development.
But if you can't take what you're learning. Outside of the four walls of the workplace, then is it truly applicable? Is it truly authentic? Um, cause it should be used in all areas of your life. Like I just feel like transferable skills, right? So you [00:36:00] can't there and have a, let's do a cultural thing, a DEI thing.
And it's only for work. Um, I've heard this before where it's like, Oh, well, I live in a very homogenous community. So I don't really see how DEI plays a role to where I live. If you've been paying attention, then you will start recognizing when sexist statements or racist statements or homophobic statements or xenophobic statements are being made.
All around you at the PTA at at the basketball court at the baseball game so you live in a homogenous community and you aren't culturally aware than anything anybody says you're you're not picking up. where they're quote, unquote, wrong or insensitive or unkind. But if you're doing this work in the workplace, and then you start understanding how your Muslim co workers feel, how your black employees or Hispanic, then when you're listening to the [00:37:00] news, when you're listening to family members speak, you're going to start becoming more sensitive.
So I always feel that if you're going to do the work, It needs to be able to be applied outside of the workplace. It needs to make sense to everybody's lived experience, not just when you come into the office and you clock in and you clock out. It has to be applicable in a way where I'm not, you know, if I'm coming into your organization, I don't want to give you made up case stories.
These case studies are of people you don't know, I want you to bring me into your world and tell me like, okay, we've had this situation happen, or this is currently what's going on and make it come alive. So, because people learn from their own experience, not from something that they've, they've read, hopefully what they read, you know, gives them a little more insight, but it's, we, we learn in real time.
This is where my clinician hat comes on, [00:38:00] uh, especially when, when talking about, you know, the journey of, of, you know, things like D and I and, and, and cultural, um, awareness is, do you even know where your people are when it comes to these topics? I think that there's this desire for us to be further along, like it's 2024.
We shouldn't even have these conversations, but we're here and we are having these conversations and. It's been addressed from such a position of my perspective, others may disagree, from a position of condemnation, um, and a lot of shooting that we have missed opportunities to really come alongside those who really have the privilege to make significant changes in the culture of their workplace, um, To allow them to be more convicted conviction is what brings change, not condemnation.
Condemnation brings shame and defensiveness. And so I've seen that [00:39:00] be one of the reasons why, you know, there's there's this resistance. And I just don't think that we've addressed even this topic from an emotionally intelligence lens. Like, if you really were empathizing and really were socially aware, you would come alongside.
Right. Thank you. So, um, I don't
Jen Fisher: know if that answered your question. It does. I, you know, I, I, I want to kind of end the conversation and maybe we can combine these two is. You know, what are some specific things that leaders can do? Because I love to end on, okay, you know, when I stop listening to this podcast, what's one or two or three things that I can go do right now or tomorrow?
And maybe I can wrap this up in the idea that everyone can be an ally and what does meaningful allyship look like in practice because I feel like that's something very tactical that every leader can and should do, that all of us should be doing. So maybe you can talk about it in terms of that.
[00:40:00] Yeah, all of us are our allies.
The last part Of my book, you know, I call it for allies, but I write it, you know, all and then in parentheses IES because I think oftentimes if we are part of that historical or systemic marginalized group, we think that we are. Only to be the recipient of allyship and not necessarily be the one to also provide that allyship.
Um, and again, that goes back to the position of privilege and privilege is not a 4 letter cuss word. It is really something that you have that can be of service to someone else. So when you can realize, oh, I actually have something to give. I actually have this opportunity to serve someone else. I give the.
Grocery aisle example of, you know, if I'm five, seven, but I need to get something on a top shelf, you know, someone who has the privilege of height can get that for me. And then going back to our emotional narratives, you know, we have put a [00:41:00] narrative to certain words and given them this negative connotation where the words have no emotions.
They're just nouns, adjectives, verbs, positive or negative. So, you know, privileges just what. Do you have that can be of service to others? And so when we think about how we serve one another, even in positions in the workplace and leadership roles, I think a gift to give everyone is do your own work, AKA go to therapy, um, process your.
Cause my goodness. Um. In leadership, you have to be able to receive feedback and receive it well. And if you really know who you are, you recognize what can trigger you, what doesn't trigger you, how you process feelings. So, uh, if I can't give you feedback as a, as a team member, I'm already not feeling safe with you.
I'm already believing that, you know, you believe that your stuff doesn't stink and you don't hold yourself [00:42:00] accountable, which is, you know, signs of low EQ. Um, one thing that I also tell, Leaders is to be careful with the saying that you are a safe space, never tell anybody that you're a safe space or that the one that you're in is a safe space people determine what is safe for them.
So you can say, I would like this to be a safe space, and I would like you to show up in however you feel most comfortable and that kind of leans into. As a leader, don't say you have an open door policy more than likely. The people who you would want to talk to you will not come because some people need to have a direct invitation.
And so this goes again to being curious and understanding your team. Um, I know my husband was like. Saying this, when he first got into his role as a leader, he's like, it's an open door policy. I'm like, they're not coming. And so he was like, what? And then I had to remind him about it. It's well,
Jen Fisher: it's well intentioned.
Right. But it doesn't. [00:43:00] Yeah.
Yeah. And I had to remind him of himself that my, my husband is one who, um, needs to be invited, you know, with his own history of rejection. I was like, no one wants to feel rejected if they come to your office and you say it's open door, but you're in the middle of a meeting. And you go, Oh, not now, that will be the last time they'll ever come again.
They'll be like, Oh, he's too busy. So you're like, Oh, okay. You know? So especially in challenging times that are happening in our society, don't be so quick to move forward, you know, without asking the, the, the group that's being. persecuted or being attacked, how they feel and what they need. Um, and, and I've seen that often happen where it's either the silence is very loud and there's no communication to those who are being harmed or they do the.
inauthentic and [00:44:00] disingenuous approach of, you know, overly trying to communicate or reach out to, to those who are being harmed. And so the allyship work requires you to, to show up, but also to sometimes show up and be quiet.
Jen Fisher: And not know all the answers,
not know all the answers and be willing again with your EQ to write what you get wrong, that if you do something and you, you accidentally step on someone's foot, you've done something wrong, you've caused harm that you are quick to be teachable and humble enough to hold yourself accountable and say, you know what?
I thought that intention was, was good, but I recognize that the impact was harmful. And for that, I apologize. And I'm going to try my best to do better.
Jen Fisher: The WorkWell podcast is so excited to be bringing you Lyra Lenz, where I debrief with a Lyra health expert about today's podcast episode. And today I'm joined by [00:45:00] Andrea Holman, DEIB Senior Manager for Workforce Transformation.
Andrea Holman: Thank you. Thank you for having me, Jen. I'm excited to be here. What stood out to me was definitely the chicken analogy that you wrote.
Outline. Okay. So let's break that
down. If something as basic as chicken can have so many varieties of ways that it can be cooked and presented and prepared. Why do we think that a skill set, any skill set, but specifically in our conversation today, emotional intelligence would, wouldn't be the same way.
First of all, I think it is
Andrea Holman: a wonderful example of what it is like. To have diverse experiences across groups. And it is something that can be understood, you know, around the globe, across cultures, understanding that those differences exist. That doesn't actually fully speak to emotional intelligence, right?
Where emotional intelligence comes in is being aware of how your bias and preference shows up. Because someone is [00:46:00] eating chicken differently than you are when you start to quote unquote other people because they're not doing it the way that you're doing it right. And so then in that moment, what happens oftentimes psychologically is that that vulnerability that occurred from that employee that's punished in a way to say anything.
You don't have to do anything. You don't have to outright say I'm punishing you for this or I am being critical of how you're doing. You don't have to say those words. But just with your nonverbal, your tone, your question, your invalidation of what they're experiencing, what they've learned, the lesson that they learned from you, is do not voice this anymore.
Jen Fisher: If we're all honest with ourselves, and I will be invulnerable here, I've done that. You know, we've all done that, right?
Andrea Holman: Yes, yes. Um, Well, and let me pause one time here, Jim, because I want to Validate and see people who are already feeling insecure. Okay, so I [00:47:00]
Jen Fisher: can see
Andrea Holman: people out here who are like, Oh, no, I'm doing, you know, we're like, what did I do?
How did I make this happen? Hold on. All right, we just go, we go sit here with this for a minute and kind of deal with that discomfort. You, you're may not necessarily be overtly saying anything, but the questions, the confusion, that stuff might communicate a certain message. There's always hope to repair this.
But before we get there, okay, we're going to sit with this. Okay. So let me, I just wanted to validate that for a second, but with effective advocacy and allyship, you don't want fear to end up paralyzing. Okay, so people will do a couple of things when they're trying to show up well, they mean well, you know, they're not trying to do harm, but what happens is they're afraid of showing up imperfectly, so they don't show up at all.
So they will be silent, they'll be frozen in this place and or they'll center [00:48:00] themselves. As the problem or the solution, so when someone's expressing a need to go back to this original point, this employee is expressing this need. And then what's happening is you're afraid of doing the wrong thing.
You're afraid of showing up a certain way. And then you're centering your own emotional experience, even though you want to help and you have a desire to show up. Well, yeah. You've now de centered the person's needs at the time. The goal's not accomplished. So, paying attention to your own emotions. What's going on with your body?
With your emotion, how are you feeling right now, being aware of that? And yet and still being able to focus and say, I'm going to either put this away for a minute so that I can meet their needs. Now that's emotionally intelligent. Now you're really doing something. A final thought that I have about that chicken analogy is the way that it relates to Our own unique journeys and experiences related to diversity and inclusion and belonging, because if [00:49:00] we look at this analogy and look at the way that we say, well, yeah, people have different ways of eating chicken, right?
There's different ways of doing one thing. What can happen oftentimes with folks is they will do enough personal work to get to a certain point in their journey where they appreciate diversity enough. They feel like they can kind of tolerate most things as long as it fits within a certain scheme or a thought process that they have that people should be eating chicken.
Now, what happens is they become a little bit flustered. Okay, or have a little more tension or inner conflict when people don't eat chicken at all. When they say, I'm vegetarian, I'm vegan, um, and you've never seen that before. You say, well, this does not work with that whole schema that I have in my mind.
That's weird. Why would you do that? That can't be right. Right, because what your experience has to be the one that's accurate, right? That's what privilege tells us. And so what I would encourage people to do is, [00:50:00] is really harness that emotional intelligence, to be aware of that tendency, catch yourself doing that, see the beauty and contribution of different approaches to the same issue.
Not of eating chicken, but of hunger that allows you to practice cultural humility, okay? So you shift your thoughts from well, why do you do it like that or let me convince them to do it this way? Because it's the right way you shift from there to what can I learn from someone who does it like that?
That's the beauty of inclusion and diversity at work
Jen Fisher: I'm so grateful Farah could be with us today to talk about emotional intelligence through the lens of diversity and inclusion. Thank you to our producer and our listeners. You can find the WorkWell podcast by visiting various podcatchers using the keyword WorkWell, all one word, to hear more. And if [00:51:00] you like the show, don't forget to subscribe so you get all of our future episodes.
If you have a topic you'd like to hear on the WorkWell podcast series, or maybe a story you would like to share, Reach out to me on LinkedIn. My profile is under the name Jen Fisher. We're always open to recommendations and feedback. And of course, if you like what you hear, please share, post, and like this podcast.
The information, opinions, and recommendations expressed by guests on this podcast series are for general information and should not be considered professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. The podcast owner, producer, and any sponsors are not liable for any health related decisions made based on the information discussed.
Thank you and be well.