S0514 - Meleches Shabbos - (Klal 20 Siman 4) - Bishul - 17 - Kli Sheini - 4_ Yad Nichvais Bo - 2

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Bishul 17 - Kli Sheini 4; Yad Nichvais Bo 2 (Klal 20 Siman 4) Hilchos Shabbos - S0514

We are continuing in siman 4, discussing the concept of yad nichvais bo. The difference between yad nichvais bo and yad soledes bo is that kevia (origin of nichvais) is a burn, meaning that when the person puts their hand in the water, it burns. Yad soledes refers to where the hand jerks back out of concern for the heat. The simple difference between the two is that yad soledes could eventually cause a burn, but it would take time until that happens, while yad nichvais is immediate. Rav Belsky suggested around 180 degrees is the temperature of yad nichvais bo.
As we learned yesterday, the Mishnah Berurah concludes that one should be concerned for yad nichvais bo in a kli sheini, and although the Chazon Ish disagrees, he writes that it is hard to be meikil on the safeik deoraysa.

The Chayei Adam wrote that yad nichvais bo applies to a kli sheini, but does not discuss yad nichvais bo in a kli shlishi. We explained that the difference between kli rishon and kli sheini is not the loss of heat of the food which happens through pouring from one kli to another, but whether the walls of the container maintain its internal heat or not. In that regard, kli sheini and kli shlishi are the same, in that both do not have this internal heat. If so ,if yad nichvais bo makes a kli sheini assur, it דיםוךג make a kli shlishi assur as well.
On the other hand, the argument that kli shlishi is muttar is that there is also a certain amount of heat loss which occurs as the contents are poured from one kli to another. The irui spreads out the liquid, so the expanded surface area causes more heat loss. When it is repeated a second time (from kli sheini to kli shlishi), arguably enough heat has dissipated that no bishul occurs in it. Nevertheless, if the kli shlishi is still yad nichvais bo, Reb Elyashiv was concerned for bishul.

When it comes to making tea on Shabbos, besides the concern for kalei habishul, there is the concern that the water is yad nichvais bo. Reb Moshe holds that one can make tea in a kli shlishi, meaning he is no longer concerned for kalei habishul in a kli shlishi. As we have learned, the Chazon Ish disagrees with the concept of kalei habishul, but writes that if one is concerned with the concept of kalei habishul, it should be a concern even in a kli shlishi. We follow the Mishnah Berurah, that we are concerned for kalei habishul in a kli sheini, but we also follow the Mishnah Berurah that one can be meikil on kalei habishul in a kli shlishi. However, if the kli shlishi is yad nichvais bo, the concern will not be due to the kalei habishul but due to yad nichvais bo, and should be assur. Reb Moshe does not address this issue.
Thus, practically, if one is making tea from an urn which is higher than 180 degrees one needs to be concerned when making tea that even by the time it reaches the kli shlishi, it may still be yad nichvais bo, and it will be assur to make tea. In fact, the OU policy for giving a hechsher at an event over Shabbos includes that no teabags can be given out by the caterer, due to this concern.

We have learned that the shiur for yad soledes bo ranges between 110/113/120 to 160/170. 180 will already fall into the concern of yad nichvais bo. If the water is boiling, it is presumed to be yad nichvais bo. For reference, the insta-hot machines in kitchens are set to give water at 190 degrees.

Summary
The difference between yad soledes bo and yad nichvais bo is that yad soledes bo can eventually cause a burn, while yad nichvais bo causes an immediate burn. Yad soledes bo is between 110-170 degrees, while yad nichvais bo is at least 180 degrees.
Kli sheini does not perform bishul unless the item is kalei habishul or the item is yad nichvais bo.
The Chazon Ish questions both the concept of kalei bishul (with some exceptions) and yad nichvais bo. He does agree to be concerned with yad nichvais bo.
Arguably, the same ability to cook kalei bishul and yad nichvais bo may apply to a kli shlishi as well. The Chazon Ish holds that both kalei habishul and yad nichvais bo may apply to a kli shlishi. However, the Mishnah Berurah holds that kalei habishul does not apply to a kli shlishi, but may agree that yad nichvais bo will apply to a kli shlishi (he does not discuss it).