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More to the Story with Dr. Andy Miller III is a podcast exploring theology in the orthodox Wesleyan tradition. Hear engaging interviews and musings from Dr. Miller each week.
Transcript:
Welcome to the more to the story. Podcast I am so glad that you all have come along for an interesting conversation. Today, I'm really looking forward to it. I'm going to introduce you to our guests in just a second.
Andy Miller III: But first, st this podcast comes to you from Wesley Biblical Seminary, where I serve as a President, where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches, and we do that through bachelor's master's and doctoral degrees. We have lay certificate programs. We have a program specifically designed for the global Methodist Church. We have a lay initiative called the Wesley Institute, which is a 9 month program that walks through every book of the
Andy Miller III: Bible with seminary professors teaching, and there are no tests in the Wesley Institute. And now, on top of that. We have just started a new Wesley Institute, which is, we'll have a 6 week courses that are available for folks. So the 1st 6 weeks course starts in January 2025. It's a course on the doctrine of Christian Holiness, and that will be taught by Chris Lorcher, Dr. Chris Lorcher, particularly in light of the fact that the global Methodist church, one of the denominations that's, you know.
Andy Miller III: brings a lot of students to us here, has just approved its new mission statement, which is to make disciples of Jesus Christ and spread scriptural holiness across the globe. So if you don't know what that means this would be a great class for you to take.
Andy Miller III: Also, I'd love for you to sign up my email list@andymillerthird.com. That's andymilleri.com. And if you sign up for my email list I'll send you a free tool called 5 steps to deeper teaching and preaching, and you can find several resources available there, like Sunday school and small group material. 1 6 week study on the Book of Jude, another 5 week study on heaven and hell. And then there's another study on holiness. There. We'd love for you to check that out.
Andy Miller III: Andymiller, the 3rd.com.
Andy Miller III: Okay. I am so glad to welcome the podcast somebody I just met, but I've been learning about it the last few weeks. Her name is Melissa Doherty, and she has written a book published by Zondervan, called Happy Lies. How a movement you probably never heard of shaped our self-obsessed world, Melissa, welcome to the podcast.
Melissa Dougherty: Thanks for having me on. That was a great little commercial for your seminary there. I hope none of my my professors at Southern Evangelical Seminary. Watch this because they'll think I'm like cheating on them, or something.
Andy Miller III: Oh, that's right. No, we want to. I did say to you, a man is sure you can't get you a transfer here. No, we have a a better nil deal for you, or something like that, we'll see what we can do. No, it's great. I would love love that. Southern Evangelical has produced so many great people through the years. And I see you interact with a lot of those folks in this book here. So that's fascinating, and I do say, well, I've had your book for a couple of weeks under Vin very kindly sent this to me.
Andy Miller III: And it's not out yet when I, when probably when this podcast, comes out, this is still an advanced copy, and it doesn't come out to the end of January, so the end of January folks. You can look for it then. But I've been a little embarrassed. I didn't know about you, and I went and found your Youtube channel.
Andy Miller III: And my kids would really like your Youtube channel because it's really good. It's like, it's clever. It's fun. And my Youtube channel is kind of just me talking with people, but you have all like different things that you do. You have more than 250,000 people that follow you. So it's probably much higher now. But anyways, I just applaud the fact that you're on that medium and doing Youtube right as opposed to me, who's just kind of like barely using it. So you're doing a great job.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, I have no secret sauce, though. It's actually kind of funny to me, because you're like, Wow, you're doing something right. I'm like, oh, I've tricked a lot of people into thinking. I know what I'm doing, because that's like the secret sauce is like you kind of just have to get on and
Melissa Dougherty: be yourself, and have that hunger to, you know. Teach and talk about God and faith. And I think that's really what it is. It's just genuinely enjoying it. But yeah, the secret is, we don't know what we're doing. Sorry guys, I just yeah. So yeah. And you, you look like you're doing. I'm embarrassed. I don't know who you are. So yeah.
Andy Miller III: Well, there you go. Well, I do appreciate one of the things I noticed is, this is just kind of like youtuber inside talks, so to speak, but the even just a different kind of the cuts that you make and the the edits you make kind of, like the quick changes it remind. It reminds me of, like Mr. Beast type of things. It's moving fairly fast, and I don't know again. There's no secret sauce. But I think you're doing a great job. That's what I'm trying to say.
Melissa Dougherty: Thank you. Yeah. It's funny, because it depends on like, I wouldn't say that we're too different of a generation.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, a lot of it is just okay.
Melissa Dougherty: Could I say that a little better, or whatever it is? And then you have to edit it, you know, as you go. But yeah, it's just simple, simple edits that end up turning into jump cuts. So you probably are, are a lot more
Melissa Dougherty: teachable, and how you go about your your content. So I think that that's actually something that I would watch. I I watch your. I watch channels like yours. And then I kinda think, Oh, I've learned something. How can I apply this to.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Melissa Dougherty: You know? Yeah.
Andy Miller III: No, that that's what I thought. That's what I thought with what you're doing, too. And I love the kind of woman on the street things that you do as well. That's fascinating, and you know, getting into your book. This is fascinating to me. I would have if you would have said, oh, Andy, tell me what you know about New Thought. I would have immediately connected, like Dale Carnegie, right like I'm aware of that, and I would have thought of
Andy Miller III: some of those kind of power, positive thinking pieces. But
Andy Miller III: and I've
Andy Miller III: I've I've used in my own preaching and teaching talked about people like that you address like Oprah and Glennon Doyle. These type of folks like I find that like. But I hadn't necessarily drawn the clear connection between the 2. Because so a lot of people, if they this is probably why you say
Andy Miller III: how a movement you probably never heard of shaped our self world. So can you help me get like even the difference between this and New Age beliefs in general, like, what's the distinction here?
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, it's always, almost always the 1st question somebody asks. And 1st of all, I'm impressed that you would even connect
Melissa Dougherty: somebody like Dale Carnegie with new thought. That's to me. I'm impressed by that, because that's how
Melissa Dougherty: many conversations I've had with people about New thought, and they don't. They just have no way to put it, and usually what they would assume. And this is what I did for years. I actually just made a video about. I was wrong about this kind of thing where? Yeah, where I've always explained myself as an ex new ager, because I thought that every wiggedy, whack belief
Melissa Dougherty: that seemed strange was just kind of yeah, that was underneath the New Age umbrella.
Melissa Dougherty: And I came out of New Thought right? And I would just explain it like, yeah, I was an ex new ager. But I was more into this new Thought thing. But it's still new age. It's the same thing.
Melissa Dougherty: And then I had an epiphany a few years ago where I realized, oh, no, these are not the same thing, and it explained so much because.
Andy Miller III: Interesting.
Melissa Dougherty: Yes, I mean I I became a Christian at 16 and do. It's a long story, but.
Andy Miller III: Go ahead. Go ahead. I love to hear. I mean.
Melissa Dougherty: Hello guys.
Andy Miller III: Tell it. I've read it, but I'm glad. I I think that that will help people understand the.
Melissa Dougherty: Can't even.
Andy Miller III: In the book. It's not.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah. And even in the book, it's not that detailed. But I mean.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Melissa Dougherty: The the aspect cause I mean there's a word, Count, I mean boo on that. But
Melissa Dougherty: my editor yells at me. He's like, Oh, you gotta get the word. Count down whatever and I can actually thank him for the subtitle he came.
Melissa Dougherty: I loved it. He was so good at that. But
Melissa Dougherty: yeah, I became a Christian at 16. And what what should have started with
Melissa Dougherty: this hunger to know more about God and the Bible, you know, turned into
Melissa Dougherty: me.
Melissa Dougherty: turning to these other pseudo beliefs, these pseudo Christian beliefs that I didn't realize weren't actually Christian. But they looked really Christian. And I'm I'm asking questions like, I mean.
Melissa Dougherty: hey, why? Why is the Bible only written by men? What's up with that? I mean these, these sound like progressive questions today? But these were just
Melissa Dougherty: run of the mill. Genuine curiosity. I loved God, I was like a believer. I was signed up. I was all in, but I'm like. I don't understand some of this. What's up with the wrath in the Old Testament? There's so much violence. What's going on there? And how do we know we can even trust the Bible. How is it written? What about dinosaurs? What about
Melissa Dougherty: all these Christianity? 1? 0, 1 questions, all right, and.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure.
Melissa Dougherty: It was just like I got that. I I think of that Chloe meme. You know that where she's just giving you this look like, what are you talking about? I don't. Why are you asking me this? From majority of Christians? Majority of Christians.
Andy Miller III: Okay. Yeah.
Melissa Dougherty: Okay. And this was before social media. So you had to see a lot of people face to face
Melissa Dougherty: and have these conversations. And
Melissa Dougherty: I didn't know anything about apologetics or anything like that, and so I generally looked at most Christians as just very unthoughtful about their faith and the ones that were. Maybe they knew a lot. Maybe they had some intellectualness to them. They were not very nice.
Melissa Dougherty: right? And so you either had. Yeah. Yeah. And honestly, I'm actually kind of vocal about this today that we still have this problem where there's maybe too much heart and too much mind. It's like it's supposed to be both, and I think too much heart, maybe, is afraid of the mind, and too much mind is afraid of the heart. You know. It's like man. If I if I show some sort of sympathy towards this person, my tribe's gonna come for me, you know. And so the and the other person. You know what I mean. It's like.
Andy Miller III: Yes, yes.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, and both are just wrong. I ran into ran into that as a true seeker, trying to learn on both ends, and I just
Melissa Dougherty: was very frustrated. But and this is important. I grew up in a household single mom, 3 kids. God bless my mother!
Melissa Dougherty: So much grace for her. Now. Yeah, she went through a lot and
Melissa Dougherty: but she was always trying her best to talk about Jesus. Get us the church like I went to a Presbyterian church growing up right, and we went as much as we could. But all I remember is singing a few songs, some pizza. Yeah, like the pastor call us up in the front. We went to some Sunday school. We drew a little bit, you know, and I mean that was what it was. But what was more fascinating to me was the information I got from my family
Melissa Dougherty: about this really super spiritual
Melissa Dougherty: form of Christianity, you know, and I would hear stories of spiritual experiences that my family would have, and they knocked my socks off. I was like, Oh, that's cool. Yeah, I'm like, that's really interesting that you got that experience like you were. You went down this vision tunnel, and you saw the disciples, and they were telling you this spiritual message, or there was other. This sounds kind of creepy.
Melissa Dougherty: but it fascinated me at the time, but my mom would have this thing visit her throughout her life that she called her visitor and.
Andy Miller III: Just a sec.
Melissa Dougherty: And I was like, Oh, I want that.
Melissa Dougherty: It made you feel special, and that's the idea is that it made you feel very powerful, very special like. Oh, there's something in the spiritual world that wants something to do with me.
Melissa Dougherty: And what's important to mention all of this is that
Melissa Dougherty: I was taught about the power of our minds, the power of our words.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Melissa Dougherty: And the fact that Jesus came to earth to teach us
Melissa Dougherty: how to be like him literally. And when I say that it sounds. Oh, of course Jesus taught us that. But no, I mean literally like walking on water, being able to control the elements. And so you can like transport yourself, walk through walls. I mean, you're talking about having a control over physics
Melissa Dougherty: because you are innately divine. And this was actually what Jesus was trying to teach us. Okay, so I.
Andy Miller III: Loosely. Yeah.
Melissa Dougherty: I loosely grew up with those beliefs, not really thinking much of it until I was 16 and I became a Christian, and then I became so, bringing it back to that, I became kind of I was like this pariah because I was just asking questions. And I'm like, what's wrong with me that I'm I'm wanting to be cerebral about my faith.
Melissa Dougherty: And
Melissa Dougherty: there was actually a lot of good experiences in that, though I still look back, even at the church that I went to, and I still, I don't agree with some of the things that they do, but I had good memories there, and so.
Melissa Dougherty: but I ended up. I see these books on my shelf behind me. They were my family's books. I kind of started reading some of them. And I started kind of dabbling into these metaphysical beliefs that were very Christian, quoted Scripture. But it was just
Melissa Dougherty: better like it seemed like Christianity on steroids. Yeah, like Christianity on steroids. So I started believing these things and kind of just taking them in. I became very. I would have been very progressive. I wouldn't have known what that was. I would have thought about manifestation, visualization, power in my words.
Melissa Dougherty: I would have thought I was this powerful spiritual being. I was trying to invoke a spirit guide because my mom had a visitor. Why can't I? Yeah, I wanted to get spiritual knowledge. And
Melissa Dougherty: I was just thinking, okay, well, there's missing books of the Bible like, what's in there. I became fascinated with this, just just getting more power, getting more supernatural
Melissa Dougherty: experience, because it made me feel powerful, and it made me feel special. That's the simplest way I can put it. And then that my socks got knocked off when 2 Jehovah's witnesses came to my door and challenged what I believed, and in researching their religion.
Melissa Dougherty: And this was after I had my daughter. And you know how having kids can kind of change things. It does.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah perspective check. And I'm researching them as well simultaneously. I'm learning. Oh, if they're right, then I'm wrong, because if the Bible's true, then what I believe is wrong. And it was just a domino effect from there. And that was 2011. And that's actually when I started thinking. Or that's when I realized, oh, I was in this thing called New Age.
Melissa Dougherty: I was an ex. I was a new age. I thought it was Christian, though I truly believed that everything that I was being taught because there was a Scripture to go along with it.
Andy Miller III: Right, right.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, I mean, they talked about Jesus.
Melissa Dougherty: and they were a Christian.
Melissa Dougherty: That was the idea is that this is a better, more evolved version of Christianity. It's metaphysical Christianity.
Melissa Dougherty: And that was the way it was postured. And so I just thought it was all new age.
Melissa Dougherty: But I started realizing right away.
Melissa Dougherty: Hold on. You're an ex new ager. I'm an ex new ager, but what you were in doesn't sound like what I was in. But oh, well, you know what I mean. And this was going on for years. I just thought it was the same thing, you know. They they did manifestation too great, but they.
Andy Miller III: Where's this at? Okay? So after you had the Jehovah's witness, come your way. Then you're trying to figure out what's happening. Who are, who are you talking to at that point? Is this like, yeah, yeah. So I may.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah. No.
Andy Miller III: Please, do.
Melissa Dougherty: Poke in anytime, you know.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Melissa Dougherty: For clarity, of course. Yeah. So this was when 2011, I start getting into online ministry with and physically minister like it was online ministry with Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons.
Melissa Dougherty: But it wasn't just online. I mean, you're talking about connecting with people all around the nation. That's all they did. They are. I still don't know why they're they should be bigger than me. In my opinion they catered to the Christian that was trying to understand Jehovah's witnesses and Mormon beliefs. A lot of them were former. Jehovah's witnesses turned Christian. Former Mormons turned Christian, and they were just so educational.
Melissa Dougherty: And I yeah, like I learned, I think, that there's 2 things that every Christian should do outside of regular prayer and regular Bible study
Melissa Dougherty: is, learn about colts and take a a solid class.
Melissa Dougherty: a reading, a study of critical thinking, because I think that those 2 things would help our way of of engaging in thoughtful conversation, and also knowing how to think in order to to debate. Well, like to argue well, but also to listen.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, like in in that, I look back on it now, and I thought that was immaculate training that I was going through with the Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons, because it taught me to really love them while disagreeing, but it also taught me to really understand my Bible. So. But yeah, you had all these people
Melissa Dougherty: kind of discipling me that had been senior Christians that used to be in these cults, and they just taught me so much about critical thinking the Bible all these things. So that was my beginning. I didn't jump into ex New Age ministry for a while, partially because I was embarrassed. I couldn't believe I'd just gone to church for like over 10 years, and not known that what I believed was this thing called New Age.
Melissa Dougherty: And I just it kind of threw me for a loop. So yeah, I'm having those conversations. I'm having all that happen. And all of a sudden a lot of ex new agers start popping up online because people forget how new social media is. It really isn't yeah. I mean, Gen. Z. Doesn't have any idea that when my daughter was born I got a smartphone. You know. I'm.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Melissa Dougherty: Oh, look at this! It's a touch screen. Oh, my.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Melissa Dougherty: Talking to it. I'm like, that's new.
Andy Miller III: Yes, it is.
Melissa Dougherty: Not old. Yeah. And so you're just now getting online, getting on social media. And all these other ex new agers are coming up. And there's a exodus, a mega exodus of them just leaving.
Melissa Dougherty: So I start, you know, getting in tune with them, and I'm again realizing I don't know what Reiki is? What is that? Yoga's new age? Who knew sacred geometry like? What is half what?
Melissa Dougherty: Oh, psychic mediums! I've heard of that. But I've never practiced that Tarot cards okay, and crystals. I believed in these things. I even went to a psychic as a Christian, and I believed that crystals had energies. But I didn't wear crystals. I didn't practice aligning my chakras. I didn't know that there's a whole realm of people in the New Age that believed that there were entities like fantasy entities that could come talk to you like fairies, mermaids!
Melissa Dougherty: Angels! I didn't realize that that was
Melissa Dougherty: that even existed. I'm like no, I was more into this thing that looked more Christian. And so that's kind of how that's a longer explanation. But I from the get go. I'm like, something's a little different. And it really wasn't until recently that I realized, not only is there a difference between these 2.
Melissa Dougherty: New age is part is we should avoid absolutely. It's it's witchcraft, it's occultic. But New thought
Melissa Dougherty: is going to deceive the Christian before New Age ever will, because new thoughts made to look Christian. And not only that. Yeah, like you have.
Melissa Dougherty: You have movements within America that were spearheaded by New Thought leaders. You named a few of them. The the whole self-help movement is undergirded by New Thought authors, and it would be very helpful if the reader.
Melissa Dougherty: even if they're not a Christian, would understand what new thought even teaches to know how that happened. And so, and every chapter kind of goes through what is New Thought, the history? I had to do a chapter on Relativism, because in order to understand New thought, you had to have a fluid view of truth.
Melissa Dougherty: And the word of faith movement. That's a huge one.
Andy Miller III: The general.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, the identity crisis that we're having all kinds of things that we can kind of. Look at New thought and uniquely pinpoint it for what we're seeing in the church and in society. I'm going to stop right there and kind of get some.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Melissa Dougherty: From you. I'd like.
Andy Miller III: That's really good.
Melissa Dougherty: Define them. But let me know where you want me to go right now.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, that's good. So like with with new thought, too, like, you talk about other institutions. And one of those is the kind of ambiguous institution, alcoholics, anonymous right.
Melissa Dougherty: Yes.
Andy Miller III: We for this connection, to which many people in my audience might say, Hey, we have Aa groups at our church. We have.
Melissa Dougherty: Yes.
Andy Miller III: Or celebrate recovery, or some sort of group like this. Many might even say, I brought Dale Carnegie, hey? I've used these principles my whole life they have. It's made me
Andy Miller III: successful and effective. Christian leader. So some of that's at the at the core of that, historically, the foundation of it. But I am interested in getting to where? Where it leads into the eighties and nineties and our time now. But tell me a little bit more about like. What, maybe, could. What could be the problem of some of those historical antecedents.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah. So every single chapter in this regard needed a nuance. For that reason
Melissa Dougherty: I had to be very nuanced, because, like, for example, affirmations.
Melissa Dougherty: affirmations, as we know them, and as they are designed, are new thought prayers.
Andy Miller III: Okay. I don't know what you're talking about.
Melissa Dougherty: Informations. Think of like I am statements I am worthy. I.
Andy Miller III: Oh, right!
Melissa Dougherty: I am courageous.
Melissa Dougherty: I am victorious. Yeah, like the I am. Statements. Affirmative prayer is speaking, declaring in the now. Yes, so you don't ask you you don't
Melissa Dougherty: you? You say it as if you already had it.
Andy Miller III: That's.
Melissa Dougherty: New Thought prayer that's designed, not from the Bible, but became popular because of this thing called New thought.
Melissa Dougherty: And so let's just take that. Okay?
Melissa Dougherty: I would walk into a Christian's room right? A Christian friend and I look at their wall, and I see positive affirmations on a poster.
Andy Miller III: And right.
Melissa Dougherty: Right? Okay? So I'm thinking.
Melissa Dougherty: okay.
Melissa Dougherty: the question I'm asking is this true like what it we need to wake up every day. And we do need to think about
Melissa Dougherty: what we're thinking. Because, remember, the reason why I was attracted to these beliefs was because I came in contact with some pretty cynical Christians. They didn't seem joyful. They didn't seem happy. They didn't seem thoughtful.
Melissa Dougherty: And so these people over here, man, they seem really happy. I mean, they're talking about controlling your mind. And it really, really helps.
Melissa Dougherty: And here's the tricky part is that.
Melissa Dougherty: yeah, that it does help. And it.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Melissa Dougherty: Really works. And so you have this movement, the positive thinking movement in America with Jesus as its mascot that postures itself as this metaphysical Christianity. Yeah. But you also.
Andy Miller III: His mascot.
Melissa Dougherty: He's a mascot. Yes, because it's like, Oh, he's
Melissa Dougherty: he's just a good guy. He's going to teach you how it should be this way. He was the ultimate, positive thinker.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Melissa Dougherty: The problem is is that if I'm looking at a wall with affirmations and just like, Be courageous today, like you are
Melissa Dougherty: worthy right.
Melissa Dougherty: I have to ask, is that true?
Melissa Dougherty: Well, yeah, right? And so they might think of that. Not as like New Thought affirmations. They might just wake up. Maybe they do have negative thinking. Maybe they are their own worst enemy. Maybe they do need to clean out what they're thinking about.
Melissa Dougherty: and they wake up and they look at that every day. And they're like, Okay, I'm gonna I'm going to choose to do better today. And I'm going to choose
Melissa Dougherty: to think positively.
Melissa Dougherty: I wouldn't say that's new. Thought, like New Thought is is the. It's positive thinking. But it's also more than that. It's about thought power. It's about thinking things into existence, speaking them into existence, and throwing in a Bible verse with it, saying, This is God's will for you.
Melissa Dougherty: thinking the other person, the positive thinker is thinking, Okay, well, God's still sovereign. I don't have. It's what happens when things don't go your way.
Melissa Dougherty: and how much you're going to think about that.
Melissa Dougherty: and you know what I mean. And so again, the nuance it's it is tricky in that regard, so
Melissa Dougherty: you can have. You don't have to gasp every time you pass the Self-help section. But this is kind of why I wrote the book in the way that I did because you named one before Alcoholics anonymous. The big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, was written by, I believe, one of the writers was Emmett Fox, a very well-known, well-respected new thought author.
Melissa Dougherty: And he was pretty big at the time. So we have to ask, okay, what was infused with new thought. What's the point of it? Because the worldview, at least at the beginning, was definitely very new. Thought, you know. Choose a god for yourself.
Melissa Dougherty: There's there's a power outside of yourself which is ironic, because in New thought they would say, the powers within you. And I think that's kind of the point is that you have the power within you to fix your problems because you are ultimately divine. You are ultimately you have the divine spark within you, which is what new thought would call the Christ consciousness
Melissa Dougherty: and so
Melissa Dougherty: they would make it where you are a Christian. When you become conscious of that, you know, like, whenever you've loved like Jesus loved, God is love, and you walk in that in that positive mindset, then you're exuding the true message of Christianity. And so it sounds really positive, and it sounds really good, but I want people to kind of nuance that, and kind of think about it where you don't have to throw everything out. I mean, I'm I'm looking at books right now that are from
Melissa Dougherty: people that I would consider heretics.
Melissa Dougherty: Like Eckhart Tolle. I have one here from like Rhonda Byrne. Okay, I remember Eckhart Tolle being such a big help
Melissa Dougherty: back in the day. There are things that I read in his books that I still remember today. I'm like, Oh, yeah, that's actually true. Where, like anxiety, right? Part of the problem with people that struggle with anxiety is.
Melissa Dougherty: you struggle with depression if you live in the past, but you'll struggle with anxiety if you live in the future, you know, and I have cerebral. If I think myself into the future too much. I'm going to have anxiety, and he's like, you know, just live right now. It's about right. Now bring your mind back to the present.
Melissa Dougherty: and that is genuinely true. Right.
Melissa Dougherty: And so there's yeah, there's like this constant tug, tug.
Melissa Dougherty: Excuse me, this constant tug of what's true versus what is a truth that's being distorted. So yeah, bounce off of that. Let me know where you.
Andy Miller III: Yeah. Yeah. So so as you're saying this, like, I'm I'm interested to see, like the way that some of the things you're saying. If you just pulled them out that like that even a a few seconds ago you were talking about walking in the ways of Jesus.
Andy Miller III: and then living that out and then embodying that you're taking what Jesus said and living it in a new way. You're living the way of well, I mean, I think I've heard many messages from people who would be orthodox followers of Jesus saying those type of things, but you know in from your own experience that this is connected to another level
Andy Miller III: of thinking that's connected to this New Thought tradition. And maybe the most popular example. And you, it comes up in your book. And your videos, too, is thinking of this as expressed through Oprah
Andy Miller III: in Oprah's. Yeah. So we're.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah.
Andy Miller III: And I think we're cautious of people with. And maybe we could talk about relativism, too, like the idea of
Andy Miller III: people having their truth like. That's what you know what the type of things she would say, but
Andy Miller III: she still claims to be a Christian.
Melissa Dougherty: Yes.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah.
Andy Miller III: So tell it like, how is it? And people even your own story? New Christians often like, will find something and say, Hey, well, that's Scripture, or this is good. This is helping. I'm closer to God because of this. How can that be bad? So I'd love for you. Just kind of think about relativism, maybe how this expresses itself, and some of the things that you hear from Oprah, or those type of voices, and how we can be able to move forward and grow
Andy Miller III: even through that.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah. Yeah. So the the video that you're talking about Oprah, she's probably the best example I could think of of New Thought. I personally would have been more Christian in in. I'm looking back at the things that I.
Andy Miller III: Take actually of your.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, I would have been like more Christian than like, there's some of the things that New Thought teachers I'm like, I wouldn't have called.
Melissa Dougherty: I could agree that God is like a divine mind, sure, because that's like the that's the posture is little judgment very tolerant.
Melissa Dougherty: But, Oprah, she's everybody's like. Oh, she's a new ager. No, there's something off right with that. She's not a new ager, and even.
Andy Miller III: Talking about crystals. She's not talking about mermaids.
Melissa Dougherty: No, no, and she. I even just made a video. Where Oprah gets in a spar with an audience member and
Melissa Dougherty: the audience member. It's such an interesting video. But the audience member is thinking she's new age
Melissa Dougherty: and Oprah gets mad. She's like, I'm not new age. How dare you kind of thing. And I'm like, I actually understand where this audience member is coming from, though she's trying to pinpoint Oprah. And it's it's a new thought. And so I break that down. How and why. And it's
Melissa Dougherty: very interesting to go into that. But the relativism thing. So
Melissa Dougherty: there you have postmodernism
Melissa Dougherty: and relativism both. They both dance with New thought, because the idea is that real truth really can't be known. And so it's a higher spiritual posture again. It's a higher evolved version of Christianity. It's a higher spiritual posture to just say.
Melissa Dougherty: we don't really know.
Melissa Dougherty: We can't really know. So you.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, you default back to relativism. And I give an example in the book. And it's kind of true-ish
Melissa Dougherty: of my own story, in a way, because I mean, I give the example of somebody who's in a class. Say, you're in a college course, and it's a religion course. And the Guy's talking about like thousands of religions, and how big the universe is, and you get completely overwhelmed. And you think, how could I possibly know what's true? I've been wrong so many times.
Melissa Dougherty: and so there's a struggle, an internal struggle going on. And so what happens is that there's a default to
Melissa Dougherty: relativism because it. It's relieving, but it also seems very tolerant, and it makes you
Melissa Dougherty: kind of feel like you can just let it go.
Andy Miller III: It's so.
Melissa Dougherty: So you can kind of take anybody for what they're saying, and think they have some portion of the truth that I don't, and I need to hear this.
Melissa Dougherty: And again, it seems like, it's this
Melissa Dougherty: really spiritual thing to do. But the problem is is that there is objective truth.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, like it does exist. And so you have to think for a second. Okay, if objective truth exists, what is that truth? Does God exist, or doesn't he? Okay. If God exists, then who is he
Melissa Dougherty: like? You're a seminary guy like it's Prolegomena like you're going back to like the the 1st principles you're talking about the truth questions that we we can ask to get to this God as as revealed in Scripture. And so when you you kind of just go down that path with them, and that's kind of where I start. If you read a lot of the interviews in the book.
Melissa Dougherty: I'm not doing a gotcha on them. I'm just asking them questions, kind of getting them to PIN down their point, and one of the more frustrating ones was in my progressive Christian chapter.
Melissa Dougherty: because I'm looking at progressive Christianity, and I have a friend, Elisa Childers, that she's like the expert. I would consider her an expert in progressive Christianity, and her and I have these inside jokes where
Melissa Dougherty: it's like you look in the mirror and you see a progressive well, there's a new age, or looking back at you. But even that didn't. Yeah. Like, I even made a satire about this. But even that didn't quite sit right, because I'm like, but a new ager does this and this and that. So what? What's the missing sauce here? And of course I figured out. Of course it's new thought
Melissa Dougherty: and so. But there's this uncertainty that they all have about what they believe didn't matter who I talked to. They had to. Yeah, like they had to kind of take a few steps back and say.
Melissa Dougherty: I don't really know. But that's just what I believe.
Melissa Dougherty: And yeah, and so.
Andy Miller III: End up being put yourself in a place where you are dependent upon the like some some in the kind of oh, man! The old days of the emergent church. There! There was it like Brian Mclaren was quick to say that we need to have epistemic humility or epistemological humility like we don't know certain things. And and at some point like this kind of a basic definition
Andy Miller III: of heresy, it comes from Augustine, is this idea that we move against.
Andy Miller III: We don't love the revealed truth of God like we're choosing by. But if God has revealed Himself clearly through the Scriptures, like the perspicuity, Scriptures kind of a key doctrine. So if he has revealed himself, then we don't align ourselves. We don't love what he has said about himself instead, we then, and even, I would think.
Andy Miller III: go moving to a place of loving ambiguity.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, loving uncertainty actually moves in the direction of rejection of God's truth.
Melissa Dougherty: And it's quite selfish, because the reason why you don't want to know truth is because it makes you uncomfortable, and it because it makes you seem like you're being intolerant, like he's talking about epistemology. But it's like
Melissa Dougherty: again, that's like a a grab, for it's like a humble brag thing.
Andy Miller III: Right, right, sure.
Melissa Dougherty: He's humble, bragging. It's like, Oh, I'm being humil. I'm having humility. You're not. That's the implication. It's like they look at us like we're kind of freaks, because we're not being humble. Because we say, Yeah, this is true.
Melissa Dougherty: And this makes not only does this make sense, but we can show reality from the Christian worldview. It's the worldview that makes the most sense of things. And please explain the resurrection to me. You know what I mean. It's like this is what apologetics does. And they want to make Jesus's resurrection an allegory, a metaphor. Because if he actually yeah, like, if he actually rose again from the dead. There's implications to that, and that's just too judgmental. The number one rule in New Age and New thought is, is.
Melissa Dougherty: thou shalt not judge.
Melissa Dougherty: You know. And again, it's it's it's the the frequencies, the vibes of the universe. You don't want to judge, because then you're bringing judgment to yourself.
Melissa Dougherty: And so there's this. This is why critical thinking, I started with that whole thing. Because if you can critically think about what you believe.
Melissa Dougherty: you're going to start thinking
Melissa Dougherty: more in a way of truth for them. Critical thinking is negative thinking.
Melissa Dougherty: And so if you start doubting.
Melissa Dougherty: then you're going to think, oh, I can't get my blessing if I doubt I'm not going to get this
Melissa Dougherty: if I if I'm having thoughts of doubts, and I got to have faith with, no doubt. And so and again, that's where they would bring in a lot of these Scriptures and misuse them.
Melissa Dougherty: But yeah, you cannot have new thought without relativism or postmodernism.
Andy Miller III: Yes, I think that's right. Now. I'd love to talk about how this makes its way into the word of faith.
Andy Miller III: Movement. Now, this is what's so interesting. I I was on a Sunday Sunday nights we were visiting a word of Faith Church that I should have known was word of Faith Church. But I didn't know it. I.
Melissa Dougherty: No.
Andy Miller III: Boy. They had some great music and great worship, and it was
Andy Miller III: I was thoroughly enjoying it and blessed by it, and in one of those nights, one of those Sunday night services I realized there was like this moment where the pastor, the senior pastor, was preaching, and as somebody who, you know, teaches I was at that time is a dean at this seminary, you know, think.
Andy Miller III: think through some of the basic questions of the Christian faith regularly. And he said, Well, and and how do we know God.
Andy Miller III: or what? What did God do about suffering?
Andy Miller III: What did God do and and like did did God respond to suffering in the world?
Andy Miller III: And I thought, Oh, this is gonna be great! He's gonna say
Andy Miller III: absolutely he did in the person of Jesus Christ on the cross. He's done all absolutely like the ultimate response to human suffering comes in the self giving of the second Person of the Trinity, I mean, I mean, I wouldn't say he's going to use that language. I thought he was going to the cross. Instead, he said he gave us
Andy Miller III: seed, time, seed, time and harvest.
Andy Miller III: seed, time and harvest, and then it moved into this whole direction, saying, We plant the seed, and God is bound to respond to that by our words.
Andy Miller III: And then, all of a sudden, as this was coming across, I was like I, you know, I said to kind of leaned over my wife as I don't think this is it like we're and we were really struggling because I realized, Oh, man, this is
Andy Miller III: this is truly a word of Faith Church. Now this you show how the word of Faith Church arises out of the positive thinking movement, and I'm just curious if you could help us think like, what ways do their beliefs about healing and prosperity is that connected to New Thought?
Melissa Dougherty: Oh, a hundred percent. Any any historian worth their quill pen will tell you. Yes.
Melissa Dougherty: what I want to clarify, though, and this is something that I had to be very careful of in my early research of this was having my
Melissa Dougherty: research peer reviewed by people that were much smarter than me. And one of the things that I learned is that basically, I'm going to put it this way if you could.
Melissa Dougherty: You have the Pentecostal
Melissa Dougherty: movement of the 18 hundreds. Okay, you have the mind cure movement.
Melissa Dougherty: and you have new thought.
Melissa Dougherty: If you could somehow mix those together and they could have a baby. It would be the word of faith movement.
Melissa Dougherty: Okay.
Andy Miller III: Okay, interesting.
Melissa Dougherty: That equals that some of it is orthodox.
Andy Miller III: Right, right.
Melissa Dougherty: Right like you can go to
Melissa Dougherty: a pro. You can. I mean, I don't think very highly of Kenneth Copeland on many levels, but I mean
Melissa Dougherty: even Mlms with a prosperity
Melissa Dougherty: bent because a lot of Mlms. Which are multi-level marketing companies like Amway and Mary Kay. A lot of them have I made a whole video about that one, too? They have New Thought books to to talk about your mindset, and a lot of it is prosperity preaching.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, right? So the 1st time a lot of people have heard the gospel is like at an Amoy event.
Melissa Dougherty: right? And they're saved. I mean a drunk. Dude told me the gospel and 2 Jehovah's witnesses got me out of you know New Age thought, and so I think that you know, in God's providence, you know these things do happen, and a lot of their teachings are orthodox.
Melissa Dougherty: Now, with that being said.
Melissa Dougherty: there's a lot of it. That is not
Melissa Dougherty: yeah. And what I do in this chapter is.
Melissa Dougherty: I wrestle with that. What does that look like? Why, here was the question I asked, and here was when it was 1st on my radar. I leave New Thought thinking it's new age, and I leave New Thought.
Melissa Dougherty: and I did. Law of attraction, right? Which is a new thought. Belief which says, like, attracts like, you're I'm a mirror, and what I put out
Melissa Dougherty: comes back to me. Everything's a vibration, everything's a frequency, and based on my thoughts, words, and emotions, is what I will bring to myself. I am a powerful being. I am not godlike. I am God. I have divinity that allows me
Melissa Dougherty: to speak
Melissa Dougherty: health and wealth
Melissa Dougherty: into my life.
Melissa Dougherty: Now a lot of people hearing that might think, wow! That sounds a lot like
Melissa Dougherty: a lot of these prosperity preachers. But everything I just told you I'm remembering from New Thought authors.
Andy Miller III: Hmm.
Melissa Dougherty: And so
Melissa Dougherty: I'm getting out of these beliefs. And I'm like, Whoa! Why am I seeing over here in these churches? Y'all are? Is this law of attraction?
Melissa Dougherty: What is happening.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah. And I had to think about that for a long time. Same Scriptures.
Melissa Dougherty: Matthew, 7, 7. And then you have Mark. Oh, what's the one in Mark Mark?
Melissa Dougherty: Is it 6 or mark 6, 14. Ask, believe, receive, basically.
Andy Miller III: Right? Yes.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, and that's the formula. And then you had the proverbs. You know, there's life and death in the tongue. I could go on and on and on. The sum of the law is love, and you know, and all these things where you have the same Scriptures for the same outcome. And I'm thinking, what's the connection here? How did this happen?
Melissa Dougherty: And so I did a lot of research on this. And if you look into the fathers of the word of faith movement. I mean, you have Kenneth Copeland, of course.
Melissa Dougherty: but you have a yeah, you have Kenneth Hagen
Melissa Dougherty: and Hagen's the beginning of it.
Melissa Dougherty: But Hagen was influenced by this guy named Ew. Kenyon.
Melissa Dougherty: and EW. Kenyon was not a Pentecostal. He was a Baptist
Melissa Dougherty: preacher.
Melissa Dougherty: but he was highly influenced by the metaphysical beliefs of his day, he went to Emerson College.
Melissa Dougherty: which is a metaphysical college.
Melissa Dougherty: and he there's 1 scholar out there. It's not just one again. This isn't a topic that's really researched a lot. There's like little bits of people out there that know a lot about New Thought. It was hard to track them down.
Melissa Dougherty: But one of those resources, you know. He wrote an entire thesis about the word faith movement and New Thought and Canyon, and he's reading Kenyon's work, and one of the things he said is that it's very highly probable, like it's to him. It's without a doubt, that he studied under Ralph Waldo Trine.
Melissa Dougherty: who is a new thought.
Melissa Dougherty: huge, New Thought leader at the time, and he was a professor at Emerson.
Melissa Dougherty: and so he read metaphysical books with great interest.
Melissa Dougherty: trying to glean what he could from these New Thought books in order to apply it to Christianity, because he's looking over here, and he's like man. This works. They're having a lot of results, health, wealth, prosperity. Why can't we use this for the church? So he's basically trying to Christianize
Melissa Dougherty: more make it more evangelical. And he he did like. He wrote a lot of books about this, and
Melissa Dougherty: he wrote a like one of the teachings like the the little gods. Doctrine is like a big one. I basically go over every single line
Melissa Dougherty: from new thought into prosperity or into the word of faith, movement, health, wealth, prosperity, and then
Melissa Dougherty: I think oh, I think the the declarations I have to look back if I even which chapter that one's in. But then the little gods and Kenyon had this word called superman like with it, you are a super being. You have these supernatural powers.
Melissa Dougherty: and so he's trying to to make that work. He's trying to make it fit.
Melissa Dougherty: And it was a lot of those teachings were adopted by people like Hagen
Melissa Dougherty: and Hagin went around. And he's saying that God told him these things when in reality he's getting them from Kenyan. Yeah, it's very, very easy to kind of
Melissa Dougherty: research this stuff and find it in that in that regard. And there's there's other lines to be drawn here. You have a lot of
Melissa Dougherty: these prosperity teachers that are
Melissa Dougherty: looking at these teachings.
Melissa Dougherty: And they're not asking the question, is it Biblical? The question they're asking is, does it work?
Melissa Dougherty: And so you're trying? Yeah, like, like.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, that's the problem with the Mega church movement in general is like, well.
Andy Miller III: yeah, well, if it's if it's really whatever it takes, and we have a real kind of means to an end. Approach says, Well, if it gets us to this place, and it probably feels successful. You probably have more money. There's other things that result. And you look at the size and scope
Andy Miller III: of some of those congregations, and you can't help but think, man.
Melissa Dougherty: Blessing me.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, that's right. That's right.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, all numbers are good numbers. And you know it's it's interesting, though, because if you're talking to somebody that believes in manifestation, visualization, whatever it is like. There's books on my shelf where there's all it is is testimonies of people that have done new Thought text techniques, and they've healed themselves.
Andy Miller III: Become milk.
Melissa Dougherty: So where does that come from? And I mean, I have a whole section on the book, and that about that. Like the whole, it works argument, because I'm like, Yeah, occultic things are supposed to work. And Jesus literally warned about this. He's like, Yeah.
Melissa Dougherty: there's gonna be signs, wonders and miracles, you know I don't. I don't hear any any warnings from Jesus, from anywhere in Scripture where they're like, Hey.
Melissa Dougherty: watch out for the person who's never had a miracle.
Melissa Dougherty: Watch out for the person who can't get their healing. Watch out, for the person that you know is dry in that regard, that they're just boring.
Andy Miller III: No.
Melissa Dougherty: Opposite. Yeah, it's like, no watch out for the the false version of these things. Yes, there's going to be false healings, and they're going to think that they did it in Jesus's name.
Melissa Dougherty: and he addresses this, and he's going to say, Begone, I never knew you that should terrify them. So it's like, yeah. So it's like, yeah, you can get your healing. And you can get your miracle. You can get this and that. But it's like, man. Test yourself, test that
Melissa Dougherty: and and see, because even I had experiences that I probably shouldn't have experienced trying to invoke these spiritual elements.
Melissa Dougherty: I think I was protected a lot in that, because
Melissa Dougherty: obviously I don't. I still believe 100%. I was a believer. It's just I was trying to open doors that I shouldn't have even knocked on. And so yeah, I think there's an element there of critical thinking and thought and Bible study that we need to do whenever somebody is like, yeah, but I experienced this. Therefore it's true. I think that that is one of the more complicated.
Melissa Dougherty: what is it called the a complicated
Melissa Dougherty: push back
Melissa Dougherty: that people can give. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: That it's so interesting that that can be the type of pushback that you get. Now, it's interesting. What do you think? The
Andy Miller III: principal theological problem is of new thought. Like, what is it? What is a couple of? Maybe there's a couple of things like this idea
Andy Miller III: leads to heresy and leads you down a path that leads you away from how God's revealed Himself.
Melissa Dougherty: I mean, ultimately, I think it's just the warning in Ephesians that it's a false Jesus and a false gospel.
Melissa Dougherty: I think that everything is wrong there. There are elements
Melissa Dougherty: there.
Melissa Dougherty: their systematic theology right of like, who? What? Who is God? How does that work? You're going through the Bible, and you're trying to understand each system of thought in the Christian worldview. They have, like almost all of them, wrong.
Melissa Dougherty: And if you get the identity and then you have the identity of God, like if and truth.
Melissa Dougherty: And I think that if you get that wrong you get it all wrong. If you don't have an objective way to look at truth. You're not going to have a right view of who God is. It's just the way it works. And so from the beginning, from the get go, they're off on that. And you're going to end up with a false gospel, a false Jesus.
Melissa Dougherty: ultimately. And I think that that is ultimately where they go wrong. I even end the book like that. I'm like this can't save you.
Melissa Dougherty: Sure it works great, but it can't save you.
Melissa Dougherty: So the yeah.
Andy Miller III: And I wonder, like people end up putting their salvation in other places, like in mainly in themselves.
Melissa Dougherty: I was just gonna say that, yeah, yeah.
Andy Miller III: So like. If you have this like I mentioned at the beginning, I have a course on Jude. Many people know the most famous verse, you know, contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints. But then you know, it says, for there's those who have secret in the niv it says those who have secretly slipped in amongst you.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah.
Andy Miller III: And then, if you look at the next 20 verses it describes who these people are, but one of the things that they, it says is, they distort God's grace into a license for sin, and then he outlines examples of sexual immorality from Sodom and Gomorrah, then Genesis 6. But then he said this interesting line, and he clause, he says.
Andy Miller III: on the, on the authority of their dreams, based on their dreams. They do this
Andy Miller III: now. It it seemed like that to me that's looking at their inner experiences
Andy Miller III: like their own. I had. And this seemed to be a problem in other places in New Testament, too, that people would take their dreams as reality or like, I just look at that as what's happening inside of you in your head, in your own reality, making that the foundation for truth, as opposed to something that comes from outside of us outside of our own experience, it seems like that might be part of the challenge of this movement as a whole is the emphasis on the individual.
Melissa Dougherty: Yes, and in fact, I actually want to read something that I wrote in my chapter 7. It's about the Law of Attraction and affirmations. And I think this sums up
Melissa Dougherty: the best way that I could
Melissa Dougherty: show
Melissa Dougherty: how they view New thought, because the law of Attraction is basically this, this fundamental New Thought teaching, but it undergirds the movement.
Melissa Dougherty: Okay. And this is from the secret written by Rhonda Byrne. That is.
Melissa Dougherty: manifestation and visualization are taking over
Melissa Dougherty: and on Tiktok and on social media. It is alive and well.
Melissa Dougherty: This is what it says on page 164 of the secret.
Melissa Dougherty: and it's at the end of the book, so she saves it for like, why.
Melissa Dougherty: why does thought power work? Why does why do these New thought beliefs work?
Melissa Dougherty: You are God in a physical body, you are spirit in the flesh, you are eternal life, expressing itself as you capital y. By the way.
Melissa Dougherty: you are a cosmic being. You are all power, you are all wisdom.
Melissa Dougherty: you are all intelligence, you are perfection, you are magnificence, you are the Creator, and you are creating the creation of you on this planet.
Melissa Dougherty: And then after that, I corrected, because
Melissa Dougherty: if you were to replace everywhere it says you, that's where Jesus should go right, like Jesus, is God in a physical body. Jesus is spirit in the flesh.
Andy Miller III: Amen!
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, as eternal life. Jesus is a cosmic being, Jesus is all power, Jesus is all wisdom, Jesus is all intelligence, Jesus is perfection, Jesus is magnificent. Jesus is the Creator, and He created the creation of you on this planet.
Melissa Dougherty: This is the problem is that it postures mankind to the position of God. It elevates man, and it demotes God. That is fundamentally everything that you're saying. It's it's the wanting to be your own God. It's the serpent's lie.
Melissa Dougherty: It's the lie in the garden just regurgitated in a very positive way, and people believe it. You're convinced that not only everything I just read to you. I read as a Christian.
Melissa Dougherty: I believed that as a Christian.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, I know.
Melissa Dougherty: How did I get there? And it has a lot to do with the misuse of Scripture.
Andy Miller III: No, this, and you bring up the garden, and I love that you also pulled up Glennon Doyle's book to Untamed, which I think is now that that was kind of my 1st exposure to the Post Oprah versions of some of this stuff. I realized when I was serving a local church that were. There were people in our congregation that were reading that book.
Andy Miller III: In some of her books, and I I knew of her as a mommy blogger. Not that I was reading mommy blogs, but my, it would have been about this, probably what you said. You had your daughter in 2011 we were having. Our kids were being born about that timeframe. And this is kind of as social media is emerging. You have these spiritual ideas, and it seemed like a kind of a Christian source. Now we were never into her. But then I pull up the some of these.
Andy Miller III: I and you. I think you quote it, too. She says Eve wasn't meant to be yeah, she was meant to be our guide.
Andy Miller III: like ease, rejection like she's like, embrace this like, eat the apple. Yeah, let it burn, that's it. And then so like how I've set that up like when I've kind of preached on, that is that I've said. And by the way, this same woman
Andy Miller III: then left her family and is now living a lesbian lifestyle and it and and it's it's all good because she's embracing this truth. Her own inner desires. Yeah.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah,
Melissa Dougherty: yeah, that's that's the idea of it is that your true authentic self is ultimately divine, and she calls it her knowing, I remember that. And then the other thing
Melissa Dougherty: that's very startling about what you just read is that I mean, if anybody knows a lot about Gnosticism, that's ultimately a big part
Melissa Dougherty: of Gnostic theology is that Eve?
Melissa Dougherty: Eve was the good one. She came. Yeah, like, she came to show you your inner divinity, and it's been suppressed ever since
Melissa Dougherty: that. It's we're the bad guys for saying that Jesus is uniquely God.
Melissa Dougherty: because the truth is is that you are God, and they're trying to hide this truth from you. And so you you have this ultimately Gnostic belief.
Melissa Dougherty: But what she's talking about, too.
Melissa Dougherty: is again. This isn't not just intertwined in New Thought, but like the new authentic, or your true authentic self, your true self
Melissa Dougherty: versus your false self.
Melissa Dougherty: And if you embrace your true authentic self. That's the divine part of yourself that you're living out truthfully. And it's your truth.
Melissa Dougherty: So yeah, it's a dance they have to do. But I promise you to them. This makes a lot of sense.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Melissa Dougherty: If it doesn't to us.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Well, it's it's easy. It's easy for people to fall into this. And and I think it's just something for us to be cautious of what resources I mean. I think going to seminary helps. I think it's like, really good for folks. But what has helped? What are some other things that helped you as you've been emerging from this and what? Where would you point people to outside of your website and your book, which I just want to make sure people know happy lies, how a movement you probably never heard of shaped our self, assess world
Andy Miller III: available. January 25.th But beyond that book. What, what other things would you recommend for people to to look to as a way to discern truth? Here.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, this is, this might sound weird. I'm gonna give like a a really good general
Melissa Dougherty: suggestions. And then suggestions that might sound strange that I but I think that you know, especially if you're a stronger Christian, it would be very helpful, but the 1st one is I would recommend again. I mentioned this in the beginning.
Melissa Dougherty: critical thinking whatever books you can get on them. Greg Cockle's book tactics right? All he did was it was brilliant because he just repackaged critical thinking.
Melissa Dougherty: I think that that would be really good, too, because it can help you kind of think these these things through as you're approaching them. Oh, and I also left a. Every chapter has suggestions for each
Melissa Dougherty: topic, right? And so for the progressive chapter. I recommend Elisa Childers for relativism. Again, Greg, he wrote another book with
Melissa Dougherty: Beckwith Francis
Melissa Dougherty: Francis Beckwith. I believe it was yeah about relativism. It's 1 of the best books I've read,
Melissa Dougherty: you know, like learning about these things. But also, yeah, seminary has been very, very helpful because it does teach systematic theology. It does teach prolegominant like it teaches you how to discern, and what the Bible is teaching in a very, very thoughtful way. I think educating ourselves in that higher level is very helpful, and the other thing I would do is once you have that foundation. I would actually read
Melissa Dougherty: New Thought books, read the secret
Andy Miller III: Who's that? By? Who's the secret? Buy.
Melissa Dougherty: Rhonda, Byrne.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, it was promoted by Oprah, like, read the books that Oprah recommends. I mean, this sounds.
Andy Miller III: It's just.
Melissa Dougherty: Some people. But I'm like, Yeah, like you should know in that regard. And the 3rd thing I would suggest
Melissa Dougherty: is probably one of the more important things is, get out and talk to people that disagree with you.
Andy Miller III: Talk, to.
Melissa Dougherty: These people. This was one of my favorite things to do in writing this book is that I did boots on the ground research, like. I went into the unity centers. I went into the progressive churches. I made the phone calls, and these people are lovely
Melissa Dougherty: like they are. So they were so welcoming and nice, I mean, and that's part of what I mean. I think people like, but for me
Melissa Dougherty: I'm used to animosity. Remember, this is one reason why I was so so attracted to these type of Christians.
Andy Miller III: Bye, bye.
Melissa Dougherty: Is because they're like, Yeah, bring it on. Let's have a conversation, and let's disagree, and they're happy about it. And for me, that can be alluring for some people, but
Melissa Dougherty: it's also like a really great way to understand what they believe and why they believe it. And I give some interview the interviews that I go over. I guess I model in a way, how I handled it, and all I'm doing is asking questions. And there's 1 conversation in particular that I saved for the very end.
Melissa Dougherty: It was a very incredible woman that I met, but I was just asking her questions like I would anybody else. And her responses were unique.
Melissa Dougherty: And so, just in asking these questions, you will.
Melissa Dougherty: They will be surprised sometimes that you're even a Christian, because they're not used to that right. Go out and have coffee. Go out and talk to somebody you don't agree with. I know that sounds very strange, but I think that that is the best way to do the great Commission is to do it face to face. And the other thing is, it's hard to forget that they're made in the image of God while you're staring at them in the eye. It can really help us understand our own blind spots, because we can kind of
Melissa Dougherty: get a little. I don't know. I don't want to say triggered, but I mean it helps us kind of learn to listen. And how are we going to learn to listen if we don't practice it? So I think that that's 1 of the best ways to kind of have a conversation. Understand what that is, because it can be fluid. It depends on who you're talking to like. I said. I would have been more Christian
Melissa Dougherty: right? And so if somebody, if a Christian came up to me.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Melissa Dougherty: You're practicing the what? The law of what? What is that? Yeah. And I'm like, Oh, it's in the Bible or something, I mean, look, see, it's right there, and it's it's Scriptures right here, showing me how I can manifest and visualize. And they're giving me this side eye, and they're like that. I don't know if that means what you think it means. What do you mean? And you know what I mean. It's like that. You could have this conversation, and really kind of get people to think more so. Those are the 3 things that I think that I would leave everybody with.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, that's great. Those are really challenging for me, too, I think, even just even if you're not in a place where you're going to respond in such a way to bring them to Jesus. In that moment you know better where people are, by going out and asking questions and listening.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah. And then the spiritual warfare of it, too. Yeah, don't forget that. That's a thing I mean, these spirits are real. I think that a lot of us forget that that there's there is a negative spiritual realm out there and praying, praying throughout all of that as well. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Now I might have said your last name wrong.
Melissa Dougherty: No, you didn't.
Andy Miller III: Dordo hi.
Melissa Dougherty: Okay.
Andy Miller III: Garrett. We got it. Got it there it is.
Melissa Dougherty: Gordy, you did. You did, good man.
Andy Miller III: My title, my podcast is more to the story. So is there more of the story. Melissa, a lot of your stuff is out there. You're so active on social media and the like. But is there something you don't talk about, something that a hobby? You have something.
Melissa Dougherty: Oh, yeah, oh, 100%. I'm looking at it right now. I'm a semi-professional artist.
Andy Miller III: Oh, yeah. Okay.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, before.
Andy Miller III: Behind you right now. Is that something you did.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, I could say I designed this, but I didn't. I painted some of it.
Melissa Dougherty: But yeah, I wanted something that was kind of reminiscent of my my book title, but yeah, I'd show you like I this was my bread and butter before I even did anything. Yeah.
Melissa Dougherty: but I was a semi-professional artist, and I still to this day, no matter what I do in ministry, nothing quite feels like painting. It's I love it. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Wonderful. That's fun. Well, thanks so much, Melissa. I hope folks will find where? Where can they find you online? I mean, maybe they can type your name in Google probably find it. But what's the name of your channels and those type of things.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, it's just my name pretty easy, Melissa Doherty. And then I'm on Instagram, Facebook.
Melissa Dougherty: Twix, because it's just not. It's not X to me, and then I think I already said.
Andy Miller III: Is that what you call it? Twix.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, man, I'm like, this is better. I I like twix better. It just sounds better.
Andy Miller III: Never heard that. Yeah.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah. X is too strange for me. I'm like grew up with it being Twitter. It's still twitter. But now it's X. So I'm gonna compromise for you, Elon Musk. There you go.
Andy Miller III: Okay. Yeah.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah. So Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and Youtube, those are the 4 ones that you can find me at.
Andy Miller III: Great. Well, thanks for your time today, and thanks for this book. Look hopefully. Get to meet in person sometime.
Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, it's been great thanks for having me on.