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Join us, feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp, for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy thoughts as we make sense of the world around us. If you also want to create a more just and equitable world, please join us on the journey to Messy Liberation.
Becky Mollenkamp: Hello, welcome to Messy Liberation, a new podcast that we're gonna do because we're so excited to do this together. Who are we? I'm Becky Mollenkamp. I'm an accountability coach. I work with feminist founders on growing their businesses in a way that divests from capitalism as much as we can while living inside of capitalism and running businesses. And I'm really excited to be doing this with my friend, Taina. Taina, tell us about you.
Taina Brown: Yeah, I'm Taina Brown. I am a feminist life coach and DEI facilitator working primarily with busy and burnt out millennials who are looking to lead more values aligned life and who are interested in legacy and impact, social impact work.
Becky Mollenkamp: Love it. We, I think, bonded over the fact that we both identify as intersectional feminist coaches. And I think we're both willing to like, or not even willing, I think we both like having deep conversations about big stuff. Right. And I think we also, that's the liberation part. And then I think we also really agree that this work is messy, right, that you can't do it perfectly and that that idea of perfectionism is part of the problem. And so I don't know exactly. Well, I think I do know. I think I decided I think I reached out to you and said, I have this idea. I want to have conversations about interesting stuff and have them be like in the moment and what we're thinking about and just a little more fun than what I do with my other podcast, Feminist Founders, which is more interviews with people, which you're going to be on season three. And I want to do something that was more caverns conversational and fun and you're like I'm game. Yeah so here we are so what do you think this podcast tell the people what you think the podcast is going to be about or what they can expect.
Taina Brown: Yeah, this is just a place to have those really messy conversations about what it means to live as an intersectional feminist day to day. Like you said, it's a messy endeavor. It's not clean cut. Perfectionism has no place here, which is something that I think both you and I are, you know, not struggling to but actively have to divest from the ideas of perfectionism and getting it right all the time. And it's a question that I know my clients struggle with, and I'm sure the people that you work with struggle with as well. Like, how do I lead such a values -aligned life when I have to operate within these systems, whether it's at work or family life or social media, like just different structures that we just unless you just go hide under a rock somewhere, you just, you really can't almost live without. And so it's like, how do we balance that in a way that feels good? And so we're just, we're gonna, we're gonna talk some of that stuff out and, and hopefully it will help us and help people who are listening.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, and I think you and I both really value being, being messy, being real with our clients and our communities and showing that we are also works in progress, because I think we both very much rebel against or cannot stand that model that's out there of coaching. That's very much grounded in that white supremacist capitalist patriarchal kind of thing that is like, look at my Instagram-perfect life and I have it all figured out. And if you work with me, you'll have it all figured out when we both know that the reality is…
Taina Brown: Yeah, that's not true. Nobody has it figured it out. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, there is no figuring it all out, right? This is a lifelong journey.
Taina Brown: Nobody has it figured it out.
Becky Mollenkamp: And I think that's why it's so important that we both like to be really honest about where we are still learning or where we are still feeling complicated feelings about things. And that's sort of what I hope this podcast is, is that chance for us to be really real and just say like, this is my, what I'm thinking about this right now. And it could change that might evolve that could grow and maybe for each of us to work with the other to sort of say, have you thought about this? Let's open your eyes or whatever. Although I think that'll be, I feel like it'll be more you doing that with me, which is great. But maybe I'll be able to do the same.
Taina Brown: We're here for each other.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah. And so we were thinking this will be a mix of like hot topics. I hate that term, but whatever, like a mix of what's going on in the news or in pop culture or in the world around us, like in the moment where that day we decide, hey, let's talk about this thing. And also more sort of evergreen, timeless, just general topics, which I think is what we're going to do today. And we've mentioned divesting a couple of times. So that's a perfect lead in. I don't know if we purposely did that or not.
Taina Brown: Our subconscious mind was prepping us.
Becky Mollenkamp: Because when I asked you just yesterday, because that's how real time these conversations we want them to be, I was like, what are you thinking about? And you said, what about divestment? And I think that's interesting because I won't know if this is what prompted it, but we were just arranging some financial sharing in a community we're in to, get flowers for someone by the time this airs she will know, so it's okay. And I was like, hey, can't we just use PayPal? Because you were asking about Venmo and Zelle and I'm an old lady who still uses PayPal, and you mentioned that you were trying to exit PayPal because of their affiliation relationship, you can explain it more if you want, but with Israel and with everything that's going on in Palestine. And so then I don't know if that's what prompted you to think of that topic.
Taina Brown: It is.
Becky Mollenkamp: You're like, well, how about divestment, right? Amazon and PayPal and all the others and this idea of doing business with organizations that go against a lot of our own beliefs. And I just think this is interesting and it'll be very real time topic or thoughts because I haven't formulated anything. Other than I know that often the right loves to throw this back at me on social media. Whenever I start to talk about the evils of capitalism, when I talk about Amazon or whatever the things are, Jeff Bezos being a billionaire and how the billionaires are bad, inevitably some right wing troll, MAGA troll, shows up to say, but you're using your iPhone right now and they're an evil corporation, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, yeah, you're right, and would you prefer I use a carrier pigeon to send this message to social media? Because like there are limits to what we can do. And there are very few, if any, perfect companies because they can't exist within capitalism. So how do we decide, like, where to put our money and where we divest and where we don't or where we can and where we can't? I just think so much that's still in that idea of perfectionism, of having to be a perfect ally, the perfect activist and that doesn't exist.
Taina Brown: It doesn't.
Becky Mollenkamp: So when you proposed it, what did you think?
Taina Brown: I definitely thought of that because of the PayPal. It wasn't an incident. It was just a moment of just talking about how to organize money. I have been actively just like, I would say I could probably be a little bit more active about it. It's one of those things where I just really need to sit down and work through the process of completely removing any of my own business processes that use PayPal. But the reason that I am in the process of trying to divest from PayPal is because they are, I don't know if it's like their main headquarters, but I know that they have offices in Israel, which is really occupied Palestine. And so it's one of those, it's, If you've never heard of the BDS movement, it's Boycott, Divest, Sanctions. And it went a really long way to help get rid of apartheid in South Africa. And so a lot of activists and organizers are using the same model for Israel because basically what they have been creating over there for the past however many decades is an apartheid state. They have occupied so much of Palestinian land and now actively waging a genocide. And so this idea of like, how do we divest from systems or structures or even resources, really, that some people really rely on so heavily? Like, how do we do that in a way that's aligned with our values but doesn't also make things more complicated for us, and not that complications or ease or lack of complications or ease is the goal, but there is a question there, right? There is a balance to be found there because one thing that I like to tell my clients all the time is like, we can't completely divest from capitalism. You just can't, it's impossible. Again, unless you go live under a rock somewhere. At some point you're going to have to purchase something.
Becky Mollenkamp: Even if you live under a rock like, yeah, there's just there's literally no way inside of a capitalist system to exit capitalism and people this again where people like to throw that in your face. And I will say, as somebody who has a lot of privilege and is trying to do a lot of this work, for other folks who are early in that journey, I will tell you this is one of the things that comes back all the time where you start to receive this feedback from people who either just want to be contrarians. Those people exist. They're just, they like to argue, be the devil's advocate for just the sake of it. Or people who are really maliciously on the other side, on this right-wing place trying to bring you down. And basically, I think, trying to get you back ‘in line’ with the systems as they exist. But it happens so much you will get inundated with people trying to point out the ways that you are falling short. And when you're newer in this journey and still caught up in a lot of the perfectionist stuff, that can really be debilitating.
Taina Brown: It can.
Becky Mollenkamp: It can stop you in your tracks to be like, well, yeah, if I can't do this right, then why am I even doing it? They're right. There's no way to do this right. I might as well just quit because I can't. And then because you feel judged and you feel like you're failing. And it really pokes at all of these shame-y things that we get thrown at us from childhood. And it's just it makes it really hard because there isn't a way to fully divest from capitalism. You can't.
Taina Brown: Not at all.
Becky Mollenkamp: And you're right, like there is a privilege in saying, well, I don't want to do it because it's inconvenient. Sure, convenience shouldn't be a top priority. And each of those inconveniences, when added up, because if you're talking PayPal and Amazon and iPhone and just everything, all the places where we could potentially say, this is bad, can I find an alternative? That all adds up to now it becomes more than just an inconvenience. Yes, each thing might represent an inconvenience, but altogether it can consume your life
Taina Brown: It can.
Becky Mollenakmp: To be spending all of your time trying to figure out alternatives, doing all the research to find out like, is this alternative actually any better? Where are the hidden things I don't know about? Is there even a viable alternative? And then all of the work that goes into making those switches and the extra burdens that those can add on.Also, when you're looking at any marginalizations you might have, like if you're a single mom, if you have enough, if you're doing additional emotional labor, like just all of these things, like it adds up. So because I think people say that same thing, well, so it's a little inconvenient to switch off of PayPal. Like, what privilege, right? And that will start to make you feel guilty, too. And it's like, OK, yes. And it's not just this thing.
Taina Brown: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember at the beginning of the pandemic in 2020, I was like hardcore, like, don't get your stuff from Amazon. Buy from local mom and pops or local food places, local stores, because those are the ones that are going to be hit the hardest, right? And that's true. That's absolutely 100% true. A lot of businesses, local businesses, small business owners had to give up their business, they had to fold because they couldn't keep their business afloat with the burden of just not having people come to your restaurant or buy from your store or whatever. And so for people who have privilege to be able to do that, it was a great way to support local businesses and in a way that maybe they hadn't before. But then I remember a few months into it, one of my friends was like, what about people who have disabilities and can't leave their house? Or what about people who can't afford the higher price tag of a small business because maybe they're undocumented or they work part-time, you know, and they're not getting a living or sustainable wages. And so they have no option but to purchase from a supplier like Amazon where the reason that they can beat out a lot of the competition is because they can offer lower prices. And then they have, if you have Prime or if you spend 30 bucks or something, there's free shipping and then it can get to you pretty quickly, right? So there's that convenience for people who have needs that need to be met immediately. Whereas if you purchase from some other retailer online who may have slower shipping, right? And so that can pose a problem for you. And so it just really made me consider that the issue is a lot more nuanced than I was thinking it was. Like I was really just seeing it as a black-and-white thing. And it was just like, no, like some people just can't, like they have to use Amazon because that's the best option for them. And I have a friend who came out with a book. She's a poet. She came out with a collection of poetry. And when it was published, I was like, don't buy from Amazon, buy from all these places. And another friend was like, people should buy her book wherever they can get it because she needs that kind of support. And it was like, that's right, that's right. Like, if you can buy from a local bookshop, but if Amazon is your go-to and that's like the place that is not just most convenient for you, but most affordable, that's the best option for you, then get her book on Amazon. As long as you just get her book, you know.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, and you know, it's funny because I was saying how other people will judge you and your activism as not being enough, it's that all-or-nothing. But also we do it to ourselves, right? Like you're just saying like we do it to ourselves to think that if I'm not doing this perfectly, if I'm not going all-in on my activism, then I'm not doing it right. And I think it's so important for us to remember that that's just not true. That's this messy part. It has to be messy, because there isn't a perfect solution when you live in an imperfect system, right? So you can take a lot of individual actions, but the systems are still fucked up. And so it doesn't, the individual activism only goes so far. And yes, collectively, it makes a big difference. And until the systems change. It's only a piece of the puzzle. And I think that's a big thing that for me has been the biggest piece of this is recognizing the ways that I think that we collectively, both the people who are maliciously trying to like keep people ‘in their place,’ trying to protect the systems, and also the people who are trying to change the systems, but then get too caught up in this like perfect view of activism, but all of us, I think lose sight of the systemic issue of it and make it so much about individual action. And when we get so fixated on the individual actions, are you using your iPhone to send that message? Are you contributing? Do you have an electric vehicle yet or not?
Taina Brown: Yeah. Are you using a paper straw?
Becky Mollenkamp: Are you using Amazon? All of these things, it really tries to make it an individual issue where that is only a small piece of the bigger systemic issue. Climate change is such a perfect example to me. I could go buy an electric vehicle. I would like to. But also, I have the realities of my financial situation because getting an electric vehicle will require me to change some electricity in my house to make it so that I can charge it at home because it is absolutely not viable for people. If you can't charge your vehicle at home, if you have to go to the gas station every time to charge your vehicle, that's not the point. It costs a lot of money. I don't have that money right now. We have two used cars that are paid off. We can't afford to take on the car payment. Car prices have gone astronomically high since the pandemic. Interest rates are at a high right now. So there are all these things that go beyond just me making a good choice to go buy this vehicle. And even if I buy that vehicle, I am now one person who has done that. And there are more people doing it, there are still millions upon millions of people who, for all these reasons I've outlined, can't buy those vehicles either. And until there is government pressure on organizations, legal changes that happen to say, hey, companies, you have to produce more electric vehicles. You have to make them more affordable. And also, we need to do something about interest rates. We need to do something about inflation. All of these things, none of it matters. And as long as we're protecting fossil fuels and have these politicians that are taking money from those organizations to protect their interests above the planet’s, nothing's going to change. And so as long as we keep making it this individual issue, you used a plastic straw and you didn't buy an EV, so you're the reason the planet's falling apart, it is so distracting from what's actually going on. And I feel like Amazon is exactly another example of that. I can switch. A lot of people can switch. But to what? What are the viable alternatives? We are living in a monopolized world because our government isn't doing anything to stop that. And so it's like, I don't want to excuse individual choices to not divest. I think there is importance in that. And I think it's equally important. Like, I just think those conversations are pointless if they aren't parallel running with conversations about the systemic issues at play.
Taina Brown: Yeah, yeah, it's like we were talking about yesterday when we were recording for, you know, Feminist Founders. It's like, it's not an either-or, right? It's a both-and. With climate change, it's like, what's the statistic? I think it's like 80% of what's contributing to climate disaster is from three or four corporations. And so it's like, you can give me all the fucking paper straws you want, but that's not gonna make a dent in that, right? All it's gonna do is put soggy paper in my mouth. And if that's the case, I'll just use a plastic straw or buy a metal straw or a glass straw that I can take with me wherever. But at the same time, it's like, there's this onus on individual responsibility, that if you know anything about Reaganomics and neoliberalism, that's where a lot of that ideology comes from, this individual responsibility to contribute and do your part. And while that is absolutely true, a lot of times it is weaponized against individuals who have zero control over what is actually happening to create the problem in the first place. And so there's this that just continues to breed like this toxic individualism that runs rampant in societies that have a Western capitalist kind of structure, economic structure that functions to create supposed order and markets and all of that stuff. So how do you find balance yourself, Becky?
Becky Mollenkamp: I don't.
Taina Brown: What's your model?
Becky Mollenkamp: I don't do enough. And I know that. I guess some of it depends. I think I've mentioned this before. I'm Gen X, and I find Gen Xers to be a bit nihilistic. I feel like that is just the time in which we were raised. We were Cold War kids who felt like all the time that we were about to go to war at any moment with Russia, and we would all die. We were pre-technology, so we didn't have the same access to information. I don't know. Anyway, it was a very different time, I guess, that informed me and has made me a super pessimist. So a lot of times I get in this, I can easily get into a pessimist state where I'm like, what the fuck's the point? We're all going to die in the next generation. My kid will be lucky to be able to survive long enough in this hellhole of a planet. So why bother worrying about it? And then I try when I look at my kid to help pull me out of that to say, well, what are the things I can do? So we compost, we recycle. But I live in a red state where I don't think my recycling actually gets recycled. I put it in the bin. I do all the things. I don't think it does. So the composting feels good. We've been trying to work on how can we increase how much we're composting beyond just food scraps. And now actually looking at we do yard waste and food scraps. Could we compost more of our paper waste and things like that instead of recycling? So that's the climate piece where I'm trying to make that change. And then with my business, I try to look at who am I buying from and how can I begin to increase? Like for me, it's like, what does it look like to say I want to look buy from more Black-owned businesses? How do I find those? Where can I make those changes? And I mean, I'm fully transparent about the fact that I don't do enough. I don't feel like I do enough. And I guess that felt judgmental or maybe I don't need to judge myself, but you know, they're all I still buy from Amazon. I have a product I sell on Amazon using KDP because there is not a great alternative to KDP. There's not a great alternative out there to self-publishing because Amazon has basically a monopoly on that. It's very difficult. If you want to actually have anyone find it, buy it. You have to be on Amazon. And my family also uses it because it's just easy. Iit makes it so much easier to buy things because we buy a lot of stuff in bulk, we buy a lot of things on repeat, like I can set up these repeat payments. I buy, we can buy all sorts of things that I would otherwise have to go to six different vendors and pay six different shipping fees. And, you know, by being a Prime member, I don't have to do that, you know, and so I don't know, like, I don't have a good answer. I think about these things a lot. I do try to look at what I'm doing for me, a lot of what I do instead, and this is not necessarily a good solution either. But I do think about wealth redistribution. Because I'm a person with a lot of privilege, I do try to look at, okay, first of all, just even language I think is important. Instead of me thinking about it as charity, as donations, I have really been doing that work to think of it as no, this is wealth redistribution. And that is sort of that form of reparations that I feel like I should be doing, that I need to be doing. And people with privilege need to be thinking about that. This is not just my wealth that I'm kindly giving away. This is a result of privilege and so it needs to be redistributed. And I think about where do I do that? How much do I do? I do 10% of my profits from my business gets redistributed to organizations that align with my values. I try to think of those kinds of things. I still use PayPal. I don't know if I'll switch because I have clients who want to pay me with PayPal, and I also have to get paid. And the more barriers I put towards payment, the more that that then affects. First of all, my ability to pay my bills and also my ability to do that wealth redistribution that I want to do. So like these, there's all of these factors that get involved. I try to find the little ways that I can. I know my next vehicle will be an electric vehicle when and when, not if, but when we can afford to buy a vehicle. But yeah, like I still use Amazon. I still use PayPal. I still have a Mac, but what am I going to do if I don't have an iPhone? You know what I mean? Like, I don't know. It's just, it's really challenging. How, how are you, I feel like you're doing better than me. So I'm resisting my urge to like judge myself here. How are you approaching it?
Taina Brown: I'm totally not. And I think it's, you know, honestly, let me walk that back a little bit because I think it's less about how much you can do, and more about how deep. How much change is deep enough? Not how wide, but how deep. And so you and I obviously are interested in ideas and systems and projects that have an impact on social life for people. I feel like most of the people listening to this are probably in the same place. And so, I like to think about how I actively divest from things or I try to remind myself, I'll say that, about how I actively divest from things in terms of what do I absolutely need to make the impact that I want to make? And sometimes that includes corroboration, right, with Amazon or PayPal or other organizations or structures that will make it easier for me to do the impact work. And then there are other ways that I can restructure my life to divest from other things. So for instance, with the genocide happening in Palestine and the BTS movement, it's not just divest from everything, right? They're very strategic in which organizations you should be divesting from. And so they have, I think, three to five corporations that they're just like, these are the ones that we're targeting. And then there's a longer list of corporations and organizations that it's like, if you can divest from these, that's great, but we're not targeting these. But these are also organizations or corporations that are invested in apartheid in Palestine, right? So one of the corporations is McDonald's, right? That they're targeting. And so, I mean, we don't eat McDonald's a lot, but I'm not gonna lie, there's nothing like a McDonald's french fry. Like, it's not good for you.
Becky Mollenkamp: I think they have crack in them because yeah. And I have to say couple that with a strawberry shake and you've now reached Nirvana. But yes, we don't eat a lot either but I do have an eight year old so I can't lie and say that I don't.
Taina Brown: Yeah, like it's convenient for a lot of people, especially people with children who might be involved in extracurricular activities, right? So maybe on the way home from school or on the way home from practice, it's just really easy to swing through a drive-through and pick something up. McDonald's is loved by so many people for a reason, right? But since the BDS movement put out that that's one of the corporations that is on either of one of those two lists. I don't remember if it's specifically the target list or the longer list. Starbucks was also on that and I've been a Starbucks gold card member since 2008, and I was very proud of that. But I was like, you know what? No more Starbucks and no more McDonald's. I will get my coffee somewhere else. And I will have to give up those french fries. My life does not depend on me having those French fries, right? And so, and I also have a client who is half Palestinian and I'm just like, how can I sit with this person in integrity and coach them and look at their face and walk them through processing a lot of what is happening if I'm munching on McDonald's french fries and drinking Starbucks coffee. You know what I mean? But I still have mugs and like products from Starbucks that I bought. I'm not gonna throw those out beause I drink coffee every day. Like sometimes two or three times a day.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, it's also wasteful. I mean, you have to balance that with your values around the environment and caring for the planet and disposable economies and that kind of thing. So of course, right, some of its balance. And this all makes me think, though, of something you just did inside of a community we're in, which is about social change. What's it called? Deepa Iyer.
Taina Brown: The Social Change Ecosystem.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, because what you were talking about with that, and maybe we will link somewhere, wherever we put things for people to check that out, because it really has had me thinking since we talked about it. And it's coming up for me as we're talking about this, because there's these 10 different roles that people can move in and out of. And certain roles might be roles that you're best suited to all the time. Others maybe sometimes, depending on the situation or the project. And this is making me think of that, because some of this, what are you doing, I also am talking about these things. I'm not always taking all the perfect actions, but I'm hopeful that I am acting as a storyteller. I'm looking at some of the categories here, as a guide, maybe a visionary, because we're holding a vision for what could be, because I'm also a weaver because I'm talking about the ways that these things, the personal and the systemic overlap here and how those things connect with each other talking to people. You’re being a storyteller here very much by talking about your client and these issues and the feelings associated with that. I think we're both sort of being guides talking about the wisdom around these issues and how they're not always perfect. But my point being that we don't always have to be the frontline responders. Maybe we don't always have to be the disruptors, meaning we don't have to always be the person who is at any moment taking the very specific action, to still be a part of the change. If I'm still bringing awareness to the issues, if I'm helping people make connections they might not have otherwise, if I'm offering alternatives, even if I can't use them yet for some reason, but I'm presenting those things, these are also all part of social change. And I think what, you know, this whole talk that you gave about this and then me thinking more about it, it's just, this is the piece that I think we need, the nuance that we need, that both-and part that we need because too much of what's out there is like you have to do it all perfectly. And usually it's from those activists who are the frontline kind of responders. And I understand because they are in the trenches doing the hard thing. And very often, even if they don't recognize that there's a privilege in that, because a lot of times those frontline responders, not always, but often they are younger. Often they don't have children and families. Very often they don't have disabilities. You know, there's a lot of things that they may have. They have the ability to perhaps say, I won't eat McDonald's because they don't have the understanding of what it means to have only enough money for your family to go buy something off of the dollar menu. I don't think McDonald's has it anymore, which is why there's a lot of people getting angry with them, because I think McDonald's has lost sight of what their role was in the world, which was for people who literally can't afford to feed their family if they can't buy them these inexpensive meals. But we forget that and think people will be like, well, you just go buy from somewhere else? What if it's more expensive? Go make it yourself. What if you live in a food desert or what if you live somewhere where you maybe you don't even have a home where you can do that? So anyway, I think that social change model that you shared is really relevant to this as well. And there is that part of me that wonders how much of it is me trying to excuse myself for I'm not taking all the actions, but I think it also gives me some amount of solace in thinking that I am still playing a role even when I can't do it all perfectly.
Taina Brown: Yeah, and I think one, you have to trust yourself. And for anyone listening, this is for you as well. Trust that you are going to make the best decision that you know how, given the information that you currently have. And trust that once you have more information, if you need to course correct, if you need to pivot, that you will then take that action. I think too often we distrust ourselves because we're either afraid of getting caught, we're afraid of failure. And so we're just like, I just wanna make sure I'm doing the right thing, but it's like you're not always going to do the right thing. There's no way to always do the right thing. And learning to be okay with that is a part of the journey of making sure that you are living a life of legacy, that you are living a life of impact, because that's part of the messy part, making the mistakes and course correcting when necessary and being okay with someone calling you out or someone calling you in, and being okay with admitting that you made the mistake. And it really makes me think of this conversation that we were having yesterday and so many other conversations just about how intersectionality is this window into looking at issues from a very complex, nuanced perspective. And we can map intersectionality onto identity, but it can be mapped here as well. Because if we're talking about how we combat systems of oppression that target identities, which is almost everything, then there's an intersectional way to actively divest and actively find your role in divestment. And what I love about the Social Change Ecosystem that you were just talking about that was created by Deepa Iyer from Building Movement Project is, like you said, you tap into specific roles based on several different factors. So you tap into specific roles based on your skills, your expertise, your lived experience, what you have the energy that you have to offer and also what you feel like is required of you in any given moment. And so when you were talking about frontline responders, I immediately thought of those students who were building encampments across college campuses just not too long ago. They were filling that role. They were tapping in as frontline responders because they had the energy to do so, because they had the capacity to do so. They understood the privilege that they were able to leverage against these academic institutions. They understood the risk that it was gonna take and they knew that it was a risk that they could take. They didn't just willy-nilly just be like, I'm just gonna go sit on the lawn. These students thought this out. They had a plan. As the days went on, they were able to pivot from their plans. I've heard from so many people who visited encampments that either I know personally or on social media. And the one thing that everyone has said about those students was that it was very organized. There were spots on the encampment where you could get food. There were spots on the encampment where there were teach-ins happening. There were spots on the encampment where people could grieve together. It was an organic, constantly evolving ecosystem that they were creating. They were building this community that could support the needs of the people who were the frontline responders. So they were supporting each other while actively being frontline responders and divesting from their academic institutions. And so this is really all about when you think about divestment and your own life and the best way for you to do that you have to understand that one, there is no best way to do it because it's going to be messy. And what I like to tell people, and this is something that I would tell my students actually a lot when I was teaching, was that we can't fully divest from things like capitalism and other structures that feel oppressive and tight. We can't go completely 100% in the opposite direction, but how far can you lean away from it? That's the goal. You figure out what your capacity is to lean as far away from that as possible, and then you do that. And if everyone does that, then we're getting somewhere.
Becky Mollenkamp: Exactly. So I have a friend, Daisy Gillespie of Mindful Closet. I'm going to link to the thing I'm about to talk about, who following 2020 came up with her Anti-Racism Small Business Plan. And this has me inspired to want to revisit that as like my own liberation business plan, liberatory business plan. And I think it's also really helpful to do this in community. So I'm going to reach out to community to see if others want to visit this together and hold each other sort of accountable or just have a space to talk about this stuff, right? And where it's working, where it's not, the challenges and all of that. But she talks about in the pledge that she's made, and I know her well enough to know that she actually is following through on this still four years later, unlike many people who made pledges back then, to revisit this as part of her like CEO time where she revisits the plan and the pledges she made around how, you know, using 10% of her working hours every week to do anti-racist education, the donations that she's, well, wealth redistribution that she's making to organizations and how she looks at that, the business expenses she makes and can those be shifted to Black-owned businesses and anti-racist content. So she's got like a list of like six things that she's doing, and that she revisits on a regular basis. And I would love to do that, but in a sort of even expanded beyond just anti-racism work, but also like this idea of divestment and liberation and what are the ways that I want that to show up and what I'm doing and what are the commitments I can make to start making those steps, right? So it doesn't have to be everything all at once, but like, where am I trying to get to and what are the actions I'm taking on a regular basis to like you just said, small movement, small movement, instead of, I think part of what holds so many of us back is this feeling of it being so much. Because it's still rooted in that I have to do it all, and if I can't, or I want to, like even it's just like, I want to do it all and because none of us can do it all, it's sometimes like that will shut you down because you just feel like there's just too much and it's overwhelming. And so then that kind of makes you freeze and do nothing. And so creating a plan and with community support to make those gradual steps like you're talking about, I think feels really good to me. And what I'm leaving this conversation with is like. I'm going to probably right when we get done here, go right to our Slack group and be like, who wants to join me in this effort? So I love that. I love that something for me is coming out this conversation that feels very proactive.
Taina Brown: Yeah, yeah, I love that too. And I will probably be the first person to respond in that Slack group and be like, sign me up. Where do I sign up?
Becky Mollenkamp: Right? Probably. I imagine it will be you. And then maybe some others will join us and we can support each other in this. And in knowing that it's okay if it's messy and that it's small steps and like none of us are striving for perfection. Or even if we are, none of us believe that we have to be there right now. And I think that's important. So hopefully, and by the way, if anyone's listening to this and likes that idea and wants to get involved in something like that, do it yourself or reach out to us. And also we want to, I think we'll wrap this up by saying that in the future, in future episodes, we plan to at the end of our conversation, answer questions from listeners about anything.
Taina Brown: Anything at all.
Becky Mollenkamp: Anything related to liberation or not. Just know that whatever you ask us, we'll discuss it through the lens that we see the world here through, the intersectional feminist lens. So if you want to do that or reach out for any reason, we have a very fancy Gmail, messyliberation at gmail.com. Low-rent here, okay? So feel free to email us. And I'm so excited to be having these conversations with you and sharing them with the world. We'll be doing these basically weekly, but giving ourselves the full permission to be messy and say there may be times where we just don't show up. And that's also okay. So you can plan to hear from us mostly weekly.
Taina Brown: Yeah, absolutely. It's going to be good. So definitely subscribe, tune in, reach out if you have questions, or if you have ideas for a topic also that you would like for us to discuss, definitely open to that as well.
Becky Mollenkamp: Definitely, and I will link to some of the things we talked about, including, and I'll just end with a chuckle, every time you have said BDS, I cannot not hear an M at the end, and I hear BDSM. So I really think they need to rethink that acronym because I can't be the only one.
Taina Brown: I thought you were going to say BTS and I'll say, yeah, BTS, okay.
Becky Mollenkamp: No, I went somewhere very different. I went straight to BDSM. So anyway, thank you so much. I'm excited to chat with you again next week.
Taina Brown: All right, until then.