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In this episode, Heidi and Joel recall the January 6, 2021, insurrection at the U.S. Capitol with former Senator Joe Donnelly. They reflect on the events of that day, the role of law enforcement, and the political accountability that followed. The conversation also touches on the importance of civic engagement and the future of democracy in America, emphasizing the need for vigilance against threats to democratic norms.
Takeaways:
Takeaways:
- The insurrection on January 6th was a heartbreaking event for many, including those who served in the Senate.
- Law enforcement officers displayed heroism during the Capitol attack, risking their lives to protect others.
- Political accountability is crucial in the aftermath of the insurrection, with a need for leaders to uphold democratic values.
- Civic engagement is essential for the future of democracy; citizens must be involved in the political process.
- The events of January 6th were not spontaneous; they were planned and orchestrated by individuals with intent to harm.
- The failure of Congress to hold accountable those responsible for the insurrection is a significant concern.
- The role of state legislatures is vital in ensuring fair elections and protecting democracy.
- The insurrectionists' actions were not representative of the American people, but rather a radical faction.
- The need for a plaque honoring the heroism of Capitol police officers remains unaddressed, reflecting ongoing political challenges.
- The conversation highlights the importance of educating future generations about democracy and civic responsibility.
Join us on The Hot Dish every week, where we serve up hearty conversations that resonate with every corner of the country. The Hot Dish is brought to you by the One Country Project, making sure the voices of the rest of us are heard in Washington. To learn more, visit OneCountryProject.org, or find us on Substack, YouTube, Bluesky, and Facebook (@onecountryproject)at Onecountryproject.substack.com/.
- (00:00) - Introduction and Football Banter
- (04:06) - Reflections on January 6th Insurrection
- (09:30) - The Aftermath and Accountability
- (14:35) - The Role of Law Enforcement
- (19:28) - Political Responsibility and Leadership
- (24:23) - The Future of Democracy
- (31:04) - Concluding Thoughts on National Security
Creators and Guests
Host
Heidi Heitkamp
U.S. Senator Heidi Heitkamp served as the first female senator elected from North Dakota from 2013 – 2019. he is the founder and Chair of the One Country Project, an organization focused on addressing the needs and concerns of rural America. Heidi was recently named the Director of the Institute of Politics at the University of Chicago, a university she has long been committed to and a place where she enjoys engaging with students over civic discussions while encouraging them to seek opportunities in public service to our country. Heidi also serves as a contributor to both CNBC and ABC News.
Host
Guest
What is The Hot Dish?
Former U.S. Senator Heidi Heitkamp and her brother, KFGO radio talk show host Joel Heitkamp, engage in animated discussions with newsmakers, elected leaders, and policymakers who are creating new opportunities for rural Americans and finding practical solutions to their challenges. Punctuated with entertaining conversations and a healthy dose of sibling rivalry, The Hot Dish, from the One Country Project, is informative, enlightening, and downright fun.
Heidi (00:05)
Welcome to The Hot Dish. I'm Heidi Heitkamp.
Joel (00:07)
You know, and I'm Joel Heitkamp. We're recording this on January 6th, 2026. It's a five year anniversary of that horrific assault on the Capitol by the Donald Trump supporters. ⁓ We've got former Senator Joe Donnelly with us. He served the great state of Indiana. Believe me, I've got to talk to him about football in a little bit, Heidi as well. ⁓ You know, they both served in the United States Senate. We're going to talk about their experience as well as the state of the nation today.
under the second Trump administration. So hang on folks, this is gonna be a little bit of a bumpy ride, but welcome back to the hot dish. Senator Donnelly, ⁓ who's gonna win the national championship when it comes to football? Let's get it over with right away.
Heidi (00:39)
Hang on folks, this is going be awesome.
Joe Donnelly (00:52)
⁓
the Indiana Hoosiers. Absolutely. No question.
Joel (00:57)
Heidi, do you agree with that?
Heidi (00:57)
excited. I
actually that's who I'm cheering for. So how excited how excited are people in Indiana? Joe.
Joe Donnelly (01:01)
yeah. Everybody
is over the moon because you have to realize ⁓ the Hoosiers were one of the ⁓ most losing teams over the years. so coach Cignetti came and everything completely flipped upside down. And now they're playing, if you watch the Alabama game, it was breathtaking. It was like men against boys. And so everybody is.
Heidi (01:27)
Yeah.
Joe Donnelly (01:29)
Really, really excited, fired up. No IU sweatshirts in any stores right now. It's pretty cool.
Heidi (01:33)
No IU sweatshirts in these stores, right?
Joel (01:36)
Hahaha!
Heidi (01:37)
Well, your coach, you you watched him. There was no celebrating for him until he got to go, you know, until it till the awards ceremony. But man, he's got an intensity. And I think the one thing that. Oh, and come home with a note from the principal. No.
Joe Donnelly (01:43)
Oh no!
How'd you like for him to be your dad? Dad, I got all, right? Dad, got
Joel (01:52)
Hahaha!
Joe Donnelly (01:57)
all A's. And then you get that look. Why didn't you take more courses? Yeah. And my dad.
Heidi (02:00)
Well, you
Joel (02:01)
I think he was a lot like our mom, Heidi. Let's just be honest.
Heidi (02:04)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, he's, he, he, he's not
going to celebrate until the job is done. That was obvious. Yeah. And anyone who thinks that it doesn't matter. think there's just people who think it's all about a quarterback or young talent, you know, at that level, it's about coaching. And that's what this team proves is that when you have a great coach who demands excellence, you get excellence. It's incredible. Yep.
Joe Donnelly (02:10)
No, he's the real deal. Yep, you bet.
Joel (02:13)
How much?
Joe Donnelly (02:28)
Everybody knows their job.
Joel (02:30)
Yeah.
Well, let me throw this into the mix.
Joe Donnelly (02:31)
You know, there are a lot of them are Saban disciples too, not to interrupt. I apologize, Joel, but a lot of them are Nick Saban disciples. And Nick was always about the process says if we do our job properly, then we'll be fine. We can't control what the other team does in terms of their game planning or this or that, but we have a job. do our job properly. We'll be okay.
Joel (02:52)
Well, let me add this ⁓ as somebody who is cheering for Indiana as well and as a fellow Catholic. How's Notre Dame doing in this whole thing?
Joe Donnelly (03:03)
Well, Notre Dame is actually ⁓ may well be the best team in the country, but ⁓ will not get that chance to prove it since ⁓ there were nefarious ⁓ efforts in the playoff seedings. And so a team that was richly deserving of being in there and actually was probably one of the top four or five, ⁓ never got the shot. And who I felt bad for as always is the kids, the young men who... ⁓
Joel (03:11)
Ha ha!
Heidi (03:18)
and so
of being in there.
Joe Donnelly (03:32)
a guy like Jeremiah Love who came very close to winning the Heisman Trophy. He's a wonderful young guy. So you want to see him get the chance to play. That's all you ask is the chance to play.
Heidi (03:36)
Well, yeah, yeah.
Joel (03:42)
Well, let me just say this, Joe.
Senator, I got to tell you, 9457, that's the street address where you can send that 20 bucks to me for giving you a chance to say all that and asking the Notre Dame.
Heidi (03:55)
Ha ha!
Joe Donnelly (03:55)
Well,
that's okay, but it was only worth $10. I'm in the Midwest. That and I'm from the Midwest and we don't throw $20 bills around.
Heidi (03:58)
Because everybody who knows football knew this Joel. Everybody who knows football knew this.
Joel (03:59)
Hey, that's...
What the
heck, that's half a...
Heidi (04:09)
Hahaha
Joel (04:11)
That's half a case of Bushlight instead of a full case. I'm OK with that. Yeah, yeah. You guys, this conversation and of course, we're on the anniversary five years of January 6th. The people that were in that Capitol were friends of yours. They were acquaintances of yours. They're people who sell numbers you had. And I have no doubt you were texting and and trying to find out what was going on. I'm going to go with you first, Senator Donnelly. When you saw all of that, what did you think?
Heidi (04:13)
Latte, bush lattes.
Joe Donnelly (04:26)
Ugh.
I honestly wished I was there ⁓ because I wanted to help out. I wanted to help stop these felons who attacked our capital, these people who attacked our government. I just wished I was there and there to help the police or there to help ⁓ my fellow senators. It was heartbreaking because here's what I also thought, Hear these people
Heidi (04:53)
just wished I was there. And ⁓ you know, there to help the police, there to help.
senators. It was heartbreaking because here's what I also thought, You know, here these people
Joe Donnelly (05:09)
attack the Capitol, charge the building, come in. And they're in our building. And I say our building, the American people's building down in the down in the in the basement is a cafeteria where there are people working to to be able to put their kids through school, who are
Heidi (05:09)
attack the Capitol, charge the building, come in, and they're in our building. And I say our building, the American people's building. Down in the basement is a cafeteria where there are people working to be able to put their kids through school who are
Joe Donnelly (05:29)
who are trying their hardest to put together a nice meal for visitors, for whoever. And they're running away for their lives. ⁓
Heidi (05:29)
who are trying their hardest to put together a nice meal for visitors, for whoever, and they're running away.
Joe Donnelly (05:39)
I and Heidi, Heidi knows this too. I had this thought in the ⁓ in the cloakroom of the Senate. ⁓ We had a couple of bats in their baseball bats. You know, they were from the congressional baseball game or from, ⁓ you know, a famous St. Louis Cardinal came through or something and left an autographed bat. ⁓ And I think, boy, I hope I hope somebody's got their hands on those just so they can protect themselves from these folks who who meant to kill.
Heidi (05:39)
and hiding in hiding noses to I had this thought in the in the cloakroom in the Senate we had a couple of bats baseball bats they were from the congressional baseball game or from
you know, a famous St. Louis Cardinal came through or something and left an autograph back. And I was thinking, well, I hope somebody's got their hands on those just so they can protect themselves from these folks who meant to kill
Joe Donnelly (06:09)
the vice president of the United States, who meant to kill others there. ⁓ I never believed I'd see anything like that.
Heidi (06:09)
the vice president of the United States, who meant to kill others there. It was, I never believed I'd see anything like this.
Joel (06:21)
Heidi, Heidi, I got
to ask you this question because I know you and Joe well enough that ⁓ I know you must have built relationships with the Capitol Police. These had to have been friends of yours. What was your reaction to what was happening to them?
Joe Donnelly (06:32)
yeah.
Heidi (06:37)
Well, I was watching, like Joe, thinking about not only the colleagues, but all the staff people and what was going on. And not only were the Capitol police great friends, so were the people at the desk, the parliamentarian who, know, interestingly enough, if you told any member of Congress, to the Senate, go to the parliamentarian's office, they wouldn't know their way down. I mean, I would because I've been there. Guess what? Guess where these infiltrators went.
They went to the parliamentarian's office because they were looking for the ballots. mean, there is so much more to be told in this story. And, you know, there is a story, which I believe, which is the people that Joe was just talking about, the staff who, you know, the janitors, all of the people who work there, who come anytime the Senate's in session, the men herded the women.
staff people into a corner. Most of them are immigrants, first generation Americans. You they work hard and they literally stood there with box cutters ready to defend themselves. That's how terrifying it was. And I remember watching, I was doing television for ABC. And so, you know, it was going to be just a quick hit, you know, 15 minutes, this is going to be easy. And then all hell broke loose. And I was on the air with Chris Christie and he was
trying to get ahold of the president to say, stop it. Everybody, what's so interesting to me is in that moment, everybody was united, Democrat, Republican, independent, that this was a horrific event. This was a terrible event, should never have happened. Everybody for a good 24 hours decried and screamed to the top of their lungs about how horrible this was. And Donald Trump basically, the cult,
kicked in and everything changed. And now we pardon these people, many of whom incidentally have been arrested, not for small crimes. A lot of those have been arrested for domestic violence. Those people he pardoned, domestic violence, sexual assault. I mean, these are not good people who stormed the Capitol that he in fact pardoned. And he basically martyred
the one person who tried to climb through the window and lead a charge into the House of Representatives. mean, people are going to look back on this and they're going to see the videotape. They're going to see the history in real time of what happened. And they're going to wonder how the hell the Republican party got so brainwashed into thinking that this was okay. And I believe this. I believe that Mitch McConnell,
still believes it was a horrific, horrible thing. And I'll bet you he goes to his grave regretting not moving to impeach Donald Trump and preventing him from becoming president again.
Joel (09:35)
Yeah.
Joe Donnelly (09:36)
And one other thing I want to mention is I believe to this day that if President Trump had immediately gotten on television, told them to stop that this was un-American, that you're attacking our Capitol, go home. We believe in our police officers. He always talks about being the law enforcement president. Well, if you're the law enforcement president, you stand up for our officers. And that didn't happen. know, hours and hours later,
Heidi (09:49)
go home. We believe in our police.
Well, and I think.
Joel (10:02)
Yeah.
Joe Donnelly (10:04)
in a half-hearted effort.
Heidi (10:06)
The other thing that as history will develop, the rollout of the Jack Smith deposition on why he thought that it was indictable, that is now in the public history. The stupidest thing that the oversight committee, the Republicans on the oversight committee did was basically ⁓ subpoena and take a deposition of Smith because...
He's a seasoned prosecutor. knew what we was doing and he basically laid out the case against Donald Trump. And that's what's going to be on the history, in the history of what happened that day.
Joel (10:42)
So, Senator Donnelly, think Americans are ever really going to know the whole story, though? I mean, the election stopped ⁓ the process that Jack Smith was bringing. In fact, it took it just the other way to where Smith himself was. ⁓ You know, we're looking at charges. mean, do you think America is ever going to hear his full body of work?
Joe Donnelly (11:06)
I think the people of America know what happened. They know their capital was attacked. They saw it with their eyes. Joel, there's a certain percentage that they saw it with their eyes and they're still not going to admit what they saw. But most Americans know what happened, think it was a shameful, shameful, shameful event, an attack to overthrow our government. ⁓
Heidi (11:27)
what happened, think it was a shameful, shameful, shameful event, an attack to overthrow our government.
And they know that. All this other stuff is trying to, what do they say, how do they put it, know, put lipstick on a pig is what it is. Because...
Joe Donnelly (11:36)
And they know that. ⁓ All this other stuff is trying to, what do they say? How do they put it? know, put lipstick on a pig is what it is because ⁓
look, these policemen, these policemen and women, ⁓ heroic, heroic. And there's a plaque that should be hanging in the Capitol right now that they still haven't put up talking about their heroism. And
Heidi (11:51)
Look, these policemen, these policemen and women, heroic. Heroic. And there's a plaque that should be hanging in the Capitol right now that they still have to put up with talking about their heroism.
Joe Donnelly (12:05)
You know, the speaker and others have found like a million excuses to not put it up. Well, the number one excuse is you don't have the courage to tell the truth.
Heidi (12:06)
you know, the speaker and others have found like a million excuses to not put it up. The number one excuse is they don't have the courage to tell the truth. Well, and Joel, the reality is that
You can't whitewash this. mean, in all of the prosecutions of these criminals who invaded, there are victim witness statements. I think you know that Eugene Goodman, who famously led them away from the Senate chamber, is one of my best friends in the Capitol. you know, I asked him how he was doing. He said he's done so many victim witness statements, you know, where he's basically telling it from his perspective.
It'll be interesting to see what happens with the release ⁓ of the documentation that Smith ⁓ basically, the case that he was creating before Donald Trump got reelected. That's all going to come out and it's going to be analyzed and it's going to be reviewed. But in the moment, the big failure is the failure of the Congress.
to hold this president responsible for what happened. And as a result, now we're, we're living in the world that we're living in right now because they failed to do their job.
Joel (13:30)
So Senator Donnelly do you believe people died because of this? Do you believe that there are people that this cost them their lives?
Joe Donnelly (13:41)
yeah, there's Capitol Hill police who ⁓ fought to prevent people from coming through, getting sprayed, getting punched, getting hit, ⁓ who suffered a heart attack the next day. I mean, that's why. You have some other Capitol Hill police who ⁓ took their own lives afterwards because of the horrors that they saw and what they went through. And so,
Heidi (14:10)
Yes,
Joe Donnelly (14:11)
I do those. are heroes. Those are victims of the battle. And ⁓ they saved the lives of our senators, of our House members, of the people who worked in that building. They saved their lives. And here today, they won't even the speaker and his team won't even allow the plaque honoring the police officers heroism.
Heidi (14:12)
I do. Those are heroes. Those are victims of the battle. And they saved the lives of our senators, of our House members, of the people who worked in that building. They saved their lives. And here today, they won't even, the speaker and his team won't even allow the plaque honoring the police officer's heroism.
Joe Donnelly (14:40)
to be put up in the Capitol.
Heidi (14:40)
be put up
Joel, a lot of those police officers, in fact, the vast majority of capital police actually wore the uniform in this country. And a lot of them were, a lot of them are Iraqi Afghani war vets. Many of them said that they, in, in wartime, serving in wartime overseas was not as horrific as that day. And, and let me remind you this. I was obviously the chief law enforcement officer who spent a lot of time with law enforcement north
We passed a law in workers' comp basically saying if a law enforcement official basically had a heart attack, was automatically assumed to be service related because of the stress of that job. And so when people say, that didn't have anything to do with it, you know, even in conservative states like North Dakota, we recognize what that stress does and how it can basically cause injury.
as a result of that level of service. And so, I mean, this is not to be whitewashed. This is not to be swept under the rug. This is something that we need to teach our children. It was a horrific day and shame on my colleagues ⁓ in the Senate who refused to this day to acknowledge, number one, that Joe Biden won the election. And number two, that Donald Trump incited an insurrection against this country.
Joel (16:05)
But ⁓
Joe Donnelly (16:05)
But the other part
is they know Joe Biden won the election. They're just afraid to say it. And, you know, here you and I served in the Senate and, you know, we tried to do a good job. All our lives wound up in the United States Senate. We were both so fortunate. And it's like, I'm going to come to the Senate and then give my courage and my voting card to the president. I don't think so. I mean,
You know, we never did it. you know, President, when they tell me President Obama was on the phone, I think, what is he mad at me about now? ⁓ That's the job, though. And it's unbelievable that the members of the House and the members of the Senate is one of the greatest failures of our system right now, is that the legislature has just rolled over. And in a government that has a judicial, a legislative and an executive that
Heidi (16:39)
And it's unbelievable that...
Joel (16:39)
Yeah.
Joe Donnelly (16:58)
we really have ⁓ one functioning branch, the executive, because the judicial has rolled over, it seems in many ways too.
Heidi (17:01)
Well, think about
Joel (17:06)
So on my radio
Heidi (17:07)
this.
Joel (17:07)
show, hold on, Heidi, on my radio show, the one thing that always comes at me whenever we have this conversation is that prior to the event itself, Donald Trump offered the National Guard to Nancy Pelosi and that she rejected it. And the reason that the National Guard wasn't there was Nancy Pelosi's fault. Now that comes at me. That's the Republican answer to this. ⁓
I don't care which one of you go to answer that, but how would you answer that on my radio show?
Heidi (17:39)
Well,
when members of the Trump White House were asked, that was always the line. And then when they were asked under oath whether that was true, they dodged the question. So, how honest are they? I mean, this is not a factual determination. And I think it's gonna be interesting to see again how history reports this.
And I think one of the things, and I'm not justifying if she said, look, I don't think we need it. But one other thing I want to say, Joel, is why don't they ever talk about Mitch McConnell? I mean, if he offered the National Guard, he offered it to both leaders on both the Senate and the House. And they always talk about Nancy Pelosi. If they wanted the National Guard, or if he thought the National Guard needed to be called out, why didn't he ask Mitch McConnell?
I mean, so Mitch gets a total pass on this, which I've never understood because no one ever talks about the fact that, you know, it wouldn't just be Mitch who would make that decision on whether there would be a need for the National Guard. It wouldn't be just Nancy. It would have been McConnell, Leader McConnell as well. And so, you know, we need to have the facts. And the thing is that the Republicans have avoided
a complete analysis of what this looks like. There was a movement right afterwards, Joel, to do a commission like the 9-11 commission to kind of get the facts. And the Republicans said, yeah, that's a good idea. Then they backed off when they realized what had actually happened. And as a result, we ended up with the committee in the House doing the hearings, which people thought were biased. And so, you know,
Joe Donnelly (19:16)
Thank you.
Heidi (19:33)
What I would say back to those people is then why didn't they, if this was Nancy's fault, why were they afraid to basically impanel a commission to do a complete evaluation of what happened that day?
Joel (19:50)
⁓ Senator Donnelly, I want you to get a chance to answer that too, because, know, I'm a huge Nancy Pelosi fan. I think it's a bunch of BS that she even had to worry about it. You know, it's supposed to be a peaceful transition of power. ⁓ You know, they can say anything they want. They were just trying to pin blame. Those people were out to kill her. I mean, they would have killed her if they would have found her. And so, you know, for them to put the blame from the White House on to Nancy Pelosi, I want your thoughts on.
Joe Donnelly (20:00)
Sure.
Well, first thought is president could have had him there anytime he wanted him there. All he had to do was say, hey, bring him out. Then they're there. ⁓ Number two is why on earth would Nancy Pelosi not have wanted more protection at the Capitol? I mean, it defies common sense. And third is they wanted to kill her. They wanted to kill Mike Pence. They wanted to kill basically any senator or House member.
Heidi (20:41)
Third is they wanted to kill her. They wanted to kill Mike Pence. They wanted to kill basically any senator or house member
Joe Donnelly (20:50)
they could get their hands on. They were, they were ready to go. This was all planned in so many ways ⁓ for a long time before they knew exactly which windows to go to. They knew exactly how to get in. ⁓
Heidi (20:50)
they could get their hands on. They were ready to go. This was all planned in so many ways for a long time before. They knew exactly which windows they to. They knew exactly how to get in.
Joe Donnelly (21:08)
And you have the men in blue who are our law enforcement officer friends who were friends more than anything. I can remember a number of times Joel
Heidi (21:08)
and you have the men in blue who are our law enforcement officer friends who were friends more than anything. I can remember a number times.
⁓ Joel,
where like I'd be, in the heart building, one of the office buildings at the Capitol and somebody would be around me doing some very strange stuff, you know, coming up with this or that. And it was, you almost had an unspoken language between you and the officers where you kind of look, give them the look and they immediately knew and they were over there to help you and protect you and keep you safe. And in return, we gave them not
Joe Donnelly (21:20)
where like I'd be ⁓ in the Hart building, one of the office buildings in the Capitol, and somebody would be around me doing some very strange stuff, you know, coming up or this or that. And it was, you almost had an unspoken language between you and the officers, where you'd kind of look, give them the look, and they immediately knew. And they were over there to help you and protect you and keep you safe. And in return, we gave them nonstop
Heidi (21:49)
stop
Joe Donnelly (21:49)
constant respect. ⁓ But what happened that day, the president could have stopped it any time he wanted to. And why he did not do that in the first five minutes, come on TV and say, go home, go home. I'm your president. You're not helping me. This is not the way to do this. ⁓ And they basically had to drag him out to say anything about it. And so ⁓
Heidi (21:50)
because respect. But what happened that day, the president could have stopped at any time he wanted to. And why he did not do that in the first five minutes, come on TV and say, go home, go home. I'm your president. You're not helping me. This is not the way to do this. And they basically had to drag him out to say anything about it. And so
Joe Donnelly (22:18)
that's where
Heidi (22:18)
That's
where, that's where it happens. And don't forget the fake electors. I mean, this was a broad conspiracy, including what happened in Wisconsin with, with people trying to submit alternative ballots in Wisconsin, alternative ballots in, in Arizona. And those prosecutions to the extent that their state prosecutions continue to be kind of part of the evaluation.
Joe Donnelly (22:19)
That's where it lays.
Heidi (22:46)
So, I mean, there's a lot in this that a lot in this conspiracy. And I agree with Joe, this was well-planned. I go back to why would they know where the, why would they trash the parliamentarian's office? I mean, really.
Joe Donnelly (23:01)
and credit to Elizabeth McDonough and her team who protected the electoral votes. They were under attack and stayed and put the votes like in the containers and carried them out under duress and protected them and in effect protected us going through with the election. the courage of everyone there. Like you said, the people
Heidi (23:04)
Yeah, absolutely.
those ballots.
Democracy.
Joe Donnelly (23:31)
The janitor teams, the guys coming into the to the ladies who were cooks in the back saying, we got your back. We're going to protect it out front here. You guys stay there. If they get through us, be ready. ⁓ Imagine imagine having to say if they get through us, then be ready to protect yourself. ⁓ It's. We were never raised this way. This is not who the people of America are.
Heidi (23:55)
Well and
And don't forget the racial component. Very many of the Capitol police or African-American citizens who were called horrific names, who were discredited by the insurrectionists who came in that building. so, ⁓ yeah.
Joe Donnelly (24:00)
and the better nature of the vast majority, I think, understands this.
men and women who served in Iraq and Afghanistan,
protecting the very families of people who said these things to them.
Joel (24:28)
During this conversation, ⁓ you guys have said and Joe, you said this, that people know that as far as information coming out, but I'm going to challenge you just a little bit on that, since some of this has come out and maybe it's just social media. ⁓ But there's there's visual evidence of two individuals coming from the White House, making sure they got documentation to staffers where they went through the tunnels of the Capitol.
Joe Donnelly (24:36)
They know.
Joel (24:57)
to get to the parliamentarian's office, to make sure that they got to the parliamentarian what the White House had in regards to all this. I hadn't seen that before. I hadn't seen that before.
Joe Donnelly (25:11)
I'm not sure what them giving that to the, I apologize. don't know. The parliamentarian isn't in charge of security. The parliamentarian, yeah.
Heidi (25:15)
The parliamentarian is
Joel (25:18)
Yeah, no, no, no,
Heidi (25:19)
Right,
Joel (25:19)
that
Heidi (25:19)
but.
Joel (25:20)
isn't my point. My point is it goes directly to what you two have been staying. This is planned. This was orchestrated. They they were doing it first through staff when the information that they wanted in the hands of the parliamentarian didn't get into the hands of the parliamentarian because they didn't let them through. ⁓ Then it came down to plan B and C and D. And so let me ask the question this way. ⁓
Joe Donnelly (25:21)
Okay.
Yeah.
Heidi (25:27)
Yeah.
Joe Donnelly (25:43)
Yeah.
Joel (25:47)
Do you believe the American people believe that Donald Trump actually ordered and orchestrated this?
Joe Donnelly (25:58)
I don't know what the percentage is. Look, ⁓ we re-elected him, right? Even after this. ⁓ So I think deep in their soul they do, yeah. But for other reasons they voted for him again, it's like in a scale of what's more important to me, what he did there in their minds wasn't as important as what they wanted him to do. ⁓
Heidi (25:58)
I don't know what the percentage is. We re-elected him, right? Even after this. ⁓ So I think deep in their soul they do, ⁓ But for other reasons they voted for him again. It's like in the scale of what's more important to me, what he did there in their minds wasn't as important as what they wanted him to do. ⁓
Joe Donnelly (26:27)
In
Heidi (26:27)
in ⁓
Joe Donnelly (26:27)
another term.
Joel (26:29)
Well, what
about in height? want to kick this one to you. Your thoughts on the Liz Cheney's of the world ⁓ that served on that January 6 committee that you knew it might have been done through the House, but you knew a lot of those people sitting in those chairs and. Yeah, OK, so, you know, my point is this. I think that you two need to speak to that committee when you watched it in the people that were bold enough to have it cost them their careers.
Joe Donnelly (26:43)
yeah, I served in the house. Yeah.
Heidi (26:58)
Yeah. You need to remember Joel, when those committee hearings were broadcast, people watched them and they got more and more educated about what happened that day. And that's why Donald Trump was so furious about these hearings. That's why he's got such a vendetta against Liz and Adam, the two Republicans who served on that committee, proudly served on that committee, wouldn't change their mind. Know that the, you know, the historical
Joel (26:59)
when it came to elected office.
Heidi (27:28)
⁓ weight is going to be with them ultimately. And so, I mean, I think every time there is a, a ⁓ review or an analysis of what happened, it reminds people and people go, yeah, that wasn't good. That day wasn't good. And, and I believe that most people know that Joe Biden did not lose that election. think only these, the, you know, hardcore cult, you know,
QAnon conspiracy, ⁓ slim minority believe that Donald Trump won that election. You can't lose 50 plus pieces of litigation when you're challenging it in the courts in front of conservative judges and be rational about whether Joe Biden won the election.
Joel (28:18)
Yeah. Joe, I'm going to ask you this. ⁓ The people we've been talking about ⁓ have been pardoned. ⁓ When you first heard that they had been pardoned, what did you think?
Joe Donnelly (28:32)
I thought, of course he pardoned them. mean, you know, it's, it's, there's like a deal where if you, if you are punished doing the wrong thing, but the wrong thing helps him, he'll then pardon you. And it's understood. And the way he continues to keep people.
Heidi (28:55)
and the way he continues.
Joe Donnelly (28:59)
⁓ in effect, doing whatever he wants, is they know there'll never be a consequence.
Heidi (29:01)
in effect doing.
Joel (29:08)
Hide.
Joe Donnelly (29:08)
But
what I thought personally was these are the people, many of them responsible for, ⁓ you know, the officer who died of a heart attack the next day, who attacked these officers, who punched them. The officers thought they were going to lose their lives. ⁓ People down in the cook's room thought they were going to lose their lives and never see their children again, ⁓ who attacked our buildings, who ⁓
Heidi (29:08)
But what I thought personally was these are the people, many of them, for
You know, officer who died of a heart attack the next day, who attacked these officers, who punched them. The officers thought they were going to lose their lives. People down in the cooks room thought they were going to lose their lives and never see their children again. Who attacked our buildings, who...
Joe Donnelly (29:37)
were threatening with zip ties to carry away the they wanted to they wanted to kill the vice president. And we know that room. Heidi and I both know where that room is located just off the floor of the Senate, where they were basically barricading in and finally got him down a a side staircase to get out of there. But they were heading for that room. They were trying to trying to get him to hang him. Think of that. ⁓ People who were going to hang the vice president were pardoned. That pretty much
Heidi (29:38)
were threatening with zip ties to carry away the, they wanted to kill the vice president. And we know that room, Heidi and I both know where that room is located, just off the floor of the Senate, where they were basically barricading in and finally got him down a ⁓ side staircase to get out of there. But they were heading for that room. They were trying to get him to hang him. Think of that. People who were gonna hang the vice president were pardoned. That pretty much,
Joe Donnelly (30:08)
who wanted to hang the vice president were pardoned and who wanted to kill the speaker were pardoned. That pretty much says everything, doesn't it? That they think that it's appropriate.
Joel (30:16)
Yeah.
Heidi (30:16)
Well,
the other thing is that, that when you look back and you kind of find out who these characters are and you realize very many of them have committed crimes again, these were, mean, there are some people who got swept in the moment. I don't doubt that.
Joe Donnelly (30:26)
Yeah.
Heidi (30:35)
⁓ thought that this was some kind of parade that they should join. I don't know what, what went through their head, but the, the, the bottom line is there were some really, really bad dudes in this whole thing. No, no, no. And, and so now we're now we're, we're stuck with the consequences of this because every person who thinks that they can commit a crime that, that,
Joe Donnelly (30:46)
This was not the Sioux Falls Rotary Club, man.
Joel (30:50)
So.
Heidi (31:02)
that benefits the president expects that they're going to get a pardon. I mean, that's the message of President sent like Joe Jets.
Joe Donnelly (31:07)
Yeah, that's the message.
Joel (31:09)
Yeah. So last one, let me throw this at both of you. ⁓ What happens in the future? How do we make sure that there's a peaceful transition of power in the future? Joe, I'm to go to you first on that.
Joe Donnelly (31:23)
Well we all have to be involved and people go, ⁓ that's so, you know, that sounds so sappy and this and that it's not, this is our country. This is your legacy to your children, your grandchildren. If you don't get involved, then other people will make those decisions for you. And so you have to be involved. You have to try to make sure that this amazing place that our grandfathers, great grandfathers, you know,
Heidi (31:47)
this amazing place that our grandfathers, great grandfathers,
Joe Donnelly (31:53)
all the way back centuries fought to protect. We fought to protect this place the right way. What we've seen recently was some really ⁓ off-center things. But it's our job. It's our job to protect our country, to continue to speak out, to continue to stand up for the right thing.
Heidi (31:53)
all the way back centuries fought to protect. We fought to protect this place the right way. What we've seen recently was some really off-center things. But it's our job. It's our job to protect our country, to continue to speak out, to continue to stand up for the right thing.
Joe Donnelly (32:16)
And that's what we're going to do.
Heidi (32:16)
and that's what we're going to
do. I think the first thing, Joel, is we have to pay attention to who we elect in legislatures and governors. mean, everybody forgets the governor camp of Georgia did the right thing. Governor Ducey in Arizona. There was a lot of pressure on those guys to change those ballots. And they just said, we're not going to do it because we believe in democracy. These were elections that
You you had your chance to challenge, it didn't work. And so this begins in state legislatures and it begins in state houses. Never forget that. The states still run this. There has afterwards, Joe Manchin, along with, forget, maybe Mitt Romney or somebody ⁓ put a bill in that basically clarified the role of the vice president in certification of elections. so... ⁓
There was an effort to legislate that legislation actually passed, whether that legislation will clarify what the legality is. I don't think there was any legal uncertainty in any of this, but it just seems like the norms that we expect, the norms that we have relied on over a long period of time are out the window. And if you don't legislate norms, then they get walked over. so I think, know, in long-term, never forget.
that this begins in the state houses. It begins at the state level that run these elections. Pay attention, support your election officials, get educated, volunteer to be an election official. You know, I did that movie, Joel Wargame, and we basically tested what would happen if this happened again. ⁓ And it was interesting because after that,
The, ⁓ the vote vets, ⁓ vet voices, which is the C three of, ⁓ vote vets, ⁓ went around and was invited to various States to simulate what would happen if the insurrection, because the lesson that the insurrectionists take, ⁓ take from this is that don't wait for those ballots to get to the, to, ⁓ Washington. You've got to fight this in the state houses. And so the States need to be prepared.
for something like this again. And, you know, it's foolish to think it couldn't happen.
Joel (34:43)
Well, let me just say this before we shut this thing down. You guys have been using words like they and colleagues and, it's the Republicans. I mean, it's the Republicans that allowed this. It's you know, yes, Mike Pence. Yes, Adam Kinzinger. Yes, Liz Cheney. There were some that Mitt Romney, others that stood up and held their ground. ⁓ But by and large, this all happened.
in terms of the aftermath, because the Republicans were afraid of Donald Trump and they wanted it to happen. They let it happen. And so the messaging from the Democratic side has always been bad about this. mean, I as somebody who's on the sidelines during it, I was like, just say their names, say who they are, say their party. And if people think it's partisan, I don't give a damn.
because it is partisan. The whole thing, Joel, was partisan. And that's my problem with our messaging.
Joe Donnelly (35:48)
It was
Heidi (35:48)
It was
Joe Donnelly (35:49)
and
Heidi (35:49)
and the greatest fear I have right now is legislators who don't.
Joe Donnelly (35:50)
the greatest fear I have right now is legislators who don't ⁓ who don't do the job they were elected to do, who, as I said, give their voting card to Donald Trump, the Republicans who do you have. And it is fear. It is fear. I'll lose my job. Well, guess what? Heidi and I lost our jobs because of some of the votes that we took in the votes that we made.
Heidi (35:59)
do the job they were elected to do, who as I said give their voting card to Donald Trump, the Republicans who do. You have, and it is fear, it is fear I'll lose my job. Well guess what?
I lost our jobs because of some of the votes that we took and the votes that we made.
But that was what we were hired to do, was to do the right thing. And it's a check of your courage, but it's also a check of do you even understand the constitutional oath you took to protect our country? They're there, you're there to uphold the constitution, not to protect knowledge.
Joe Donnelly (36:17)
But that was what we were hired to do, was to do the right thing. it's a check of your courage, but it's also a check of do you even understand the constitutional oath you took to protect our country? You're there to uphold the Constitution, not to protect Donald Trump.
Heidi (36:40)
Yeah. And one thing we haven't talked about, look at the war powers. Look what's happening right now. and that, you know, Stephen Miller, what a scary guy that guy is. He goes on and basically threatens Greenland. mean, you know, what world are we living in? And, and crickets, crickets from people like Thune, crickets from people like Johnson, who should be standing up saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. That is a NATO country. ⁓ you know,
Article five might be invoked. mean, how, how, how, I mean, think of how crazy this is. And the other thing, and people on the Vance Whalen stuff, when Trump says this is our hemisphere, what happens when China says, well, this is my hemisphere and Taiwan belongs to us. We had Taiwan. Yeah. I mean, he basically has, he has written the game plan by basically saying, look, you stole our oil. You, you seize these assets.
Joe Donnelly (37:11)
Yeah, think of that.
We basically just gave them a permission slip. That's what we've done.
Heidi (37:38)
and we're going to take them back. mean, you know, good. Yep.
Joe Donnelly (37:41)
He gave Putin and
Xi, the Chinese leader, a permission slip because where is our moral authority now when we say, you can't go into another country, Vladimir Putin. Look at us and go, yeah, tell me about that. How'd you like Caracas?
Heidi (37:52)
Yeah, yeah. mean, Ukraine used to be part of
Joel (37:52)
Yeah, well.
Heidi (37:55)
the Ukraine used to be part of the USSR. That's the whole theory of his case and invading Ukraine.
Joe Donnelly (38:00)
Okay. And this is the scary part
is this is warming up. This is there's they want to get Cuba. That that's like on the list for next maybe. And then Colombia and this whole Greenland thing, they ought to be impeached for for like a Stephen Miller saying, look, nobody can stop us. So we're going to take it. That's not how things work. You know.
Joel (38:08)
And they want Greenland, you know, but I gotta
Yeah.
And what I would add to all of that is I got a call into my show from a Canadian who was very well spoken. And he, yeah, he was he was a conservative and he just said, what in the hell is going on? You know, have things just gone bat shit crazy? And, you know, he said we used to when he was saying all of this about the 51st state and when he was saying all this about, you know, Canada can't run itself, we just laugh.
Joe Donnelly (38:32)
Canadians always are Joel.
Heidi (38:32)
Canadians always are.
I'm
Joe Donnelly (38:39)
question.
Joel (38:52)
We just thought it was Donald Trump being Donald Trump. He said after Venezuela and after what clearly they're going to do when it comes to Greenland, ⁓ we don't laugh anymore. We don't laugh anymore. And so then I asked him, I said, you're you're part of NATO. ⁓ If he does this and the rest of NATO gets in a room and says he can't do this, this breaks the very oath of NATO. This breaks the very agreement that NATO is. Will Canada be willing to step up?
Joe Donnelly (38:55)
They're not laughing anymore, are they?
Heidi (38:55)
not laughing anymore are they?
Joel (39:21)
or do you think you should step up and take on the United States physically if it comes to that? And he said, we have no choice. We signed on to an agreement with our NATO nation. We're the reason there isn't a World War III. So we have no choice. We'll have to go to war against the US. And basically, that's what he said to you guys.
Heidi (39:39)
And basically that's what he said,
Joe Donnelly (39:42)
All for one and one for all. Article five is, if one of us is attacked, we all defend. So in this surreal world, it would be the United States against the other NATO states if he went after Greenland
Heidi (39:42)
all for one and one for all. Article five is, if one of us is attacked, we all the same. In this surreal world, it would be the United States against the other NATO states. And I want to make this point. The only time Article five has been invoked is on behalf of the United States in Afghanistan and Iraq. That's the only time it's been invoked when they were coming to our assistance.
Let me tell you, I would tell you that this is impossible, but watching these legislators, the Republican silence about what's happening right now, no one should assume that they aren't going to take Greenland. No one should assume that they're not going to go into Cuba. No one should assume any of that.
Joe Donnelly (40:33)
what we've seen, nobody should assume that anything is off the table.
Heidi (40:36)
Yeah, I agree.
Joel (40:37)
I'm going to add this. think that it
Heidi (40:40)
Now that we've cheered everybody up, Joel.
Joe Donnelly (40:42)
but you know what it
is? The vast majority of Americans know it and think this is the worst possible thing we could be doing.
Heidi (40:48)
Yeah, crazy.
Joel (40:53)
I think that the best thing we can do ⁓ to look at where our country is, is to have the mothers of the world out there and the fathers of the world not let their kids get bullied. Because I think Stephen Miller got bullied and he's so angry at the rest of the world that now he's got power. But really, to talk to our kids, to talk to my grandkids. I've got a granddaughter that's 14 years old. And we talk about this in front of her. I want to make sure she knows about it.
Joe Donnelly (41:01)
Amen.
Well, I don't know if any of you ever saw the John Candy movie, Canadian Bacon, where he's living, I think, like in Niagara Falls, right across from the Canadian border there. And their sheriff candidate is losing, so they figure, we've got to do something to make it seem like we're defending the United States. And so I have this mental image of everybody, of a number of North Dakotans in the closest town to the border, and some Canadians on the other side looking at each other.
Heidi (41:24)
Any of you ever saw the John 10?
He's, he's
Well, I ⁓
Joel (41:41)
You
Yeah.
Well, well, you know, we're out of time, you guys. But Senator Donnelly, as always, thanks. ⁓ You know, good luck to Indiana. Indiana State. Yeah, exactly. Hyde Hyde. It's always good to have people like him on the hot dish, is it not?
Joe Donnelly (41:53)
What are you doing over there?
Heidi (41:59)
It is. Yeah.
Joe Donnelly (42:01)
it's great to be with you.
Go Hoosiers! Absolutely!
Do
you want me to sing the Indiana fight song? Say no because my voice is so bad. Indiana, ⁓ Indiana. And it goes on.
Joel (42:14)
I don't know why I don't.
Well, you can't stop now.
Heidi (42:23)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joel (42:27)
Thanks for coming on. We appreciate it.
Heidi (42:28)
Good luck, Joe.
Joe Donnelly (42:29)
No,
thank you. Thanks. Bye bye.
Heidi (42:34)
Thanks for joining us today on The Hot Dish, brought to you by One Country Project, making sure the voices of the rest of us are heard in Washington.
Joel (42:42)
Learn more at onecountryproject.org. That's onecountryproject.org. You can follow us on Substack, YouTube, Facebook, and Blue Sky.
Heidi (42:51)
We'll be back next week with more hot dish comfort food for rural America.