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The Fintech Marketing Lab is a podcast where Araminta Robertson, Managing Director at Mint Studios, explores, experiments, and breaks down how fintech marketing actually works in practice.
Intro: In this episode, you're
gonna hear my guest talk about
building a whole year of content
off just one big piece of research.
Well, we've gone and just done the same
thing on Thursday, 24th of September,
we're launching a new report titled
How Fintechs Can Win in AI Search,
and it's joined by a live webinar on
the day to cannot walk through it.
And we're doing this because after a
year of testing with our own clients, we
have a few findings that are genuinely
kind of surprising and interesting.
For example, for one client, we saw
that leads that come in through AI
Search Convert to Opportunity 64%
of the time versus 40% for Google.
Another client went from no AI
search inbound at all to $2.2
million in pipeline
within 12 months with 1.3
million of those already
closed and lots of other really
interesting metrics like that.
It's free to join, free to get
the report and you can sign
up@minkcopywritingstudios.com,
stroke AI arch report.
And I'll also put the link in the show
notes, so hopefully see you there.
So what do we discuss in this episode?
If you've heard me talk about content
before, you'll know I usually push people
towards bottom of the funnel content.
In other words, start by targeting
people who are aware they have a problem
and are actively looking for solution.
Skip the big thought leadership piece.
Start with that.
What's interesting in this
episode is that we'll explore how
tunes kind of does the opposite.
Most of their public content is
thought leadership and their bottom of
the funnel stuff is more kind of the
sales led piece kind of at the end.
And I think for their market
and the people that they target,
this often makes more sense.
Let's take an example.
More people in the world have a mobile
wallet than a card, but if you're a
business sitting in the US or Europe,
you more likely think about international
payments as bank transfers 'cause that's
kind of what they look like to you.
You're not really searching for
a better option because you don't
know that you're missing one.
And that can make it sometimes
harder to target, people with
bottom of the funnel content.
And this is where it can get interesting.
There are ways to do it,
but it can be harder.
And this is what we talk about today.
Zi is the CMO Atunes and a big part of
their content strategy is built on filling
that gap at educational problem gap.
Over the last 15 years, he's
led marketing at Eneco World
First Thelocal and flood wave.
So he's really seen cross-border
payments from many different angles,
which means that he spots patterns
really well rather than, you know, just
taking the company's version of them.
Tunes is a Singapore based
cross-border payment company.
They move money in real time across
140 countries and 90 currencies and are
currently connected directly to 7 billion
mobile wallets, stablecoin, wallets and
bank accounts, plus many types of cards.
In this episode we talk about why
tunes leads with thought leadership
and kind of treats bottom of
funnel content as sales enablement.
How one of research projects with
Juniper turns into months of content,
which is then packaged differently
for webinars, blogs, LinkedIn, my
two's thoughts on AI and where it
actually sits in their workflow.
And for example, why he doesn't
really use them or would rather
not use them for reports.
A really interesting story of what MAT two
did at flood wave to rebuild trust after
the company was wrongly accused of money
laundering in Kenya, which was data drops.
And then finally how they measure a lot
of this when you know these are accounts
that are hitting over 200 touch points
before having a sales conversation.
Anyway, we covered a lot of really
good stuff, so this is a great episode.
Let's hear from.
Generic intro: You are listening to
the FinTech Marketing Lab podcast.
I'm Arminta from Mint Studios, a
content marketing agency specialized
in the FinTech space, and this
podcast is where we experiment,
explore, and break down how FinTech
marketing actually works in practice.
Each episode I talk with top FinTech
marketers about what they're testing,
what they're learning, and how
they're pushing the boundaries of
brand strategy and team building.
With that, let's get into today's episode.
Araminta Robertson: Well, the first
question I wanna ask you, Matthew,
is I heard on one of your previous
podcasts that you're really into
baking and you actually spent
some time baking here in Austin.
So I have to ask what bakery
you, you worked at and I
need to go visit obviously.
Mathieu Limousi: There are two really
good bakeries in my opinion, , in Austin.
And one of them I worked at and I spent
a few months baking croissants breads.
There is easy tiger in Austin
and they have several locations.
But they, yeah, they
do fantastic croissant.
There's another, another one is
Swedish Hills, I think it's called.
This one is they have just
one location, central Austin.
It's really good.
Also it feels like you're in France
having a, croissant from France.
Yeah.
Really?
Araminta Robertson: Yeah, I have to say
what I really miss is a really good bread.
I love bread.
So do they do bread as well or?
Mathieu Limousi: They do.
they do really good bread.
as well.
Araminta Robertson: Amazing.
I know where to go now.
Yes, so you've worked at a lot
of different FinTech companies
specifically cross-border payments
as well, so it's even more specific.
And I think that's really interesting
'cause you see probably like a
wider, like it's easier for you
to see patterns and consistencies.
It's not like a completely
different FinTech each time.
So it, in all the cross-border payment
companies that you've worked at,
what do you find is it that fintech's
regularly under invest in like,
what is it they're missing or that
they're just not doing enough of?
Mathieu Limousi: Yeah.
That's a good questions.
And there are several areas where
I think sometimes FinTech companies
in payments could do better.
A lot of them have not been,
in my opinion, investing enough
in marketing actually overall.
Marketing is often seen as like
a secondary piece of the business.
And it does not always have
its voice at the table.
And that's been in the companies
where I had a voice at the
table had a lot more impact.
It was a lot more beneficial for the
overall brand awareness basically and
building the trust in the ecosystem, which
is really a cornerstone for any FinTech
company in terms of brand attributes.
And so, Yeah.
Having the marketing always at
the table is really important.
And unfortunately, it's
consistently this is not happening.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Why do you think they underinvest.
Mathieu Limousi: I think they're
under invest because it's tech heavy.
There's a lots of other investments, it's
a very customer centric business also.
all the payments company I've been
at maybe for the exception of one
I've been really B2B focused very
top tier enterprise grade customers.
And so it requires a lot of energy
investment to have something very
dedicated to the team in terms
of delivering the tech that they
need, customising everything.
And so there is a lot of investment in
that part, a lot more than in marketing.
But interestingly, all the company I
worked at are, have been very fast growing
companies and very successful companies
with successful exits or amazing growth
stories and marketing have been, has been
critical to support that, to support the
narrative, the positioning and definitely
they know how to tap into marketing when
it's to support the brand visibility.
But in a lot of cases,
it's been late in the game.
And when marketing is brought earlier
on, it has a much better impact.
You're already well known by the industry
before you start going around and
raising funds or selling the company.
So it's been interesting.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
cause I would agree as well, and I think
this is why, I mean this is why we, I
co-star the FinTech marketing community.
'cause it was like, we need
somewhere to talk about this, right?
Like how what is somewhere where marketers
could talk about this and how maybe
it's sometimes challenging in ways that
it might not be in other industries.
'cause there's more heavy,
there's heavier investment.
'cause you need to get licences and you
need to get like, as you say, the tech
compliance versus maybe a B2C SaaS,
which is a little more straightforward.
For example, what do you find is like
the trigger or the pain point to causing
a, a FinTech to then start saying,
okay, we need to start prioritising
marketing.
Mathieu Limousi: When you are about
to raise funds, and your story
has to be, again, the best kept
secret of the FinTech industry.
You know, it's like, everyone has the best
kept secret because we don't do enough
marketing and we're not forward enough.
I think this is when like as a founder,
as a CEO or even further down the, the
lane, when you are already like a scale
up and if you still think when you're a
scale up, oh, with the best kept secret,
when it's time to go IPO or big series,
it's too late,
right?
It's too late,
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
yeah, for sure.
So I wanted to turn this into
one of our content case studies.
So, we can focus a bit on kind
of how you do content at Tunes.
So I guess, my first question is,
what is the role of content within
Tunes wider marketing strategy?
Like, how do you think about content
and what role does it play, I guess?
Yeah, in your marketing.
Mathieu Limousi: a lot of the, the
content, what we do at Tunes is really
thought leadership content, right?
We don't do that much content that is
going to be very bottom of the funnel.
We do have some sales enablement
activities where we try to be more
precise, but The bottom of the funnel
content that we do is going to be
very specific to specific accounts,
talking about specific pain points.
So it's really sales enablement at
the, the last mile, but where we focus
most of our effort is on the thought
leadership raising brand awareness
and making sure we are in all the
conversations that matter for our
customers, that's really our objective.
So that we perceive as the go-to source
of information people understand.
We simplify payments, concept
payments is really complicated.
Even payments experts have sometimes hard
time navigating the intricacy because,
at a global scale it's so different
from one market to another and so on.
It's really intricate.
So we have to simplify everything.
And so we really focus on that atunes
making the content as simple accessible
as possible, yet super insightful.
And then what is important is
that we are also there to help
any of the, the people we touch.
Click down, double click on
a specific topics and then
get additional information.
And, but what we aim for as with
our thought leadership content is
really get this entry point that
explain the complexity of payments
in very simple terms, and then
help them down the funnel by double
clicking to get more information.
I don't think we reinvented the
wheel in terms of how we build
content and plan for content.
We strategize obviously the
different topics that are relevant
for us, relevant for our audience.
May they be, customers, partners,
regulators, investors and so on.
And we build the content based on
that to explain the opportunities that
the market is missing and explain the
depth of the opportunities and how
these opportunities can be tapped into.
We do that across multiple
channels and format.
I think the most interesting part
for us is that we always start with
a cornerstone piece of contents.
Like a large piece of content.
We've been publishing, for instance
what we call mobile wallet reports.
Because one of the thing that we
do as tunes is we allow anyone that
want to send money into a mobile
wallet in any country to do that.
Very simple sim simply easily, right?
but the market doesn't realise
that they necessarily need to
do that to send money overseas.
When you sit on that side of the
world, when you're in the us, when
you're in Europe, you just send a,
a bank transfer and that's easy.
It's going arrive into a bank account.
But in reality there are more
people with a mobile wallet
than with a card in the world.
And that's for many, many years.
And so, we need to explain that, to
open the eyes to the market, like
the opportunity, what they miss
and where it matters and so on.
And so we build this cornerstone content,
which is the mobile wallet report.
And then from there we can
build a lot of sub content.
We can slice and dice focus on different
regions, focus on different verticals,
why it matters for the banks, why
it matters for the fintechs, why it
matters for the telco, what matters
for insurance companies, et cetera.
And then we can have a lot
more content from there.
when you have a big, long form piece
of content, you can slice it and
dice it and use it having snackable
type of content on for social media
and more in-depth content blogs and
so on, and webinars and podcasts.
So, That's how we approach it.
So I don't think it's
necessarily super innovative way.
but it's very efficient.
And also now that we have AI and
all those tools, it's even easier to
dissect the existing content that we
have and extract bits that are going
to be relevant for specific, right.
So that maybe is the only part
that, that changed over time, over
the last six, 12 months, we've
been doing a lot more of that.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
I was gonna ask like what
kind of channels, what type
of content do you invest in?
I think I'd be interested in
hearing kind of the, the workflow.
Like you said you pick a topic, do a
report, and then you break it down.
Like how do you build a
strategy behind that as well?
Like how do you decide
what topics to go after?
How do you decide whether this
should be a webinar or a blog post?
Like what's the thinking.,
Mathieu Limousi: it really
depends on the piece of content.
But when you think through what
content I'm going to develop first,
like the, cornerstone content you
think about how you're going to use
it, but sometimes you don't know yet.
Exactly.
I'm gonna give you an example.
Just a month ago or so we
delivered a market research that
we run with Juniper Research.
that's something
completely new that we did.
We called it the Inter
Repairability Index.
The name is a little bit intricate,
but basically what it means is that.
Payments Stop at Borders today because
each countries have their own different
systems, and they don't talk to each,
they're not interoperable, right?
And so we measured the access to overseas
payment system from 50 countries around
the world, And we surveyed people in
10 key markets about their usage and
the challenges that they face when they
want to send money overseas, And so we
ranked 50 countries in the world based
on various criteria, their access to
their home payment systems, and then
easiness to send money overseas or
receive money from overseas, We didn't
know what we were gonna find, right?
We know it's broken.
There is a lack of interoperability.
But then with all the information
that we found now we have several
streams of content that we develop.
Some that are like mobile wallet
focused, for instance, some that
are stablecoin focused, right?
Some that are consumer
remittance payments focused.
As I don't know, you said you have
Spanish, maybe you you wanna send
money to spend from time to time,
like how easy it is and so on.
So we interview people about that, and
we had a lot of findings about how,
what works and what doesn't work, and
what's the biggest pain points and so on.
And then same similarly
for the gig economy.
We ask content creators like how
they want to be paid and so on.
So we have a lot of
insights on that as well.
Or we also have a lot of
insights on stable coins
usage across different markets.
And we have, crazy findings.
Like even though Europe is at the
forefront of stable coin regulation,
more than 60% of the people have
never heard of uh, stablecoin, While
in countries like Nigeria, where
stablecoin is ban, everybody's using it.
So we have those amazing findings, but we
couldn't know before, So we focus more on
like, what are the topics we want to look
into, and then based on findings, then we
can dissect and create a lot of content.
So, content specifically for the press.
So we do have a press release.
We package.
Data specifically for the press,
because we know like, okay, this
set of reporters is talking about
stablecoin, that's their bit.
So let's send them that package.
And this person is more
focused on financial inclusion.
and they would love to have data on the
hardship that sending money overseas
can create to people expecting payments
for a long time and things like that.
Right?
And so we package the content like
that for the press then we package
it with webinars where we have
subject matter expert internally.
Typically that is going to
deep dive into the findings.
Then we do write blog posts and then
from there, like those semi long
form type of content we create social
media posts, infographics and so on.
So, It's a process.
It's easier than it used
to be with AI really.
And that's exciting time for us.
It also helps having like this investment
that you put into content, like
live longer and have turnover time.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Well I wanna talk about AI in a second
and also like measuring, but before
that I wanted to talk about, the reason
content is so crucial, especially in
B2B FinTech, is because of trust, right?
And you've said also in previous podcasts
and appearances that the most important
value in payments is trust and education.
And this is what I say
all the time as well.
And the best way, in my opinion,
to build trust is with content.
Because with content
you're educating, right?
And you're also building trust.
'cause you're kind of, when you
educate someone, it's inherently
like, oh, you're empowering me.
So then that's where kind of
the, the trust comes from.
So, what would you say is your
favourite way to do that in B2B?
Cross-border payments.
And I think it's also always interesting
to compare this with a counter example.
Is there an example, and it don't have
to name names, like what's a company
that doesn't do this well, or maybe
just doesn't have to be a company,
but a tactic that doesn't do this
well when it comes to building trust.
Mathieu Limousi: Yeah.
And that's, I think, building trust is
it's the most important attribute a brand
can have in FinTech for a lot of reason.
But the bottom line is, somebody gives
you money and they give you money.
You're going to take care of it,
whether it's a million dollar or
1 cent it's value for somebody.
It's important, right?
So they need to trust you.
B2C, B2B, same thing.
Therefore, trust needs to transpire
everywhere across FinTech company.
It's not just content.
It's not just marketing.
everybody needs to transpire trust, right?
Anyone who is customer facing need to
be transparent, So to be trustworthy,
there are some tactics, right?
You always need to be transparent
when something doesn't work.
Be upfront.
Take control of the narrative.
Explain what happens, explain what
you're putting in place to fix it.
And that's across the board, right?
For the, your communications
team, for your sales team,
for your, but anyone, right?
Your receptionist needs to be trustworthy.
It's crazy, right?
But when I do a brief before big events,
like money 2020 to the sales team I
always remind them, think of yourself
being in a retail environment, right?
You're happy, you're welcoming people.
That way you convey trust, right?
If you're grumpy, if you are on your
phone, like you don't pay attention
to the conversation you're having
you lost trust already, right?
So it's not just the, not
just the brand, the content.
It needs to be everywhere
across the business.
That's how you need to do it.
I have the luck tunes to also
manage internal communications.
So, we double down on, on trust
and what it means also it's
regularly with internal messages.
That's really important.
And the second part of your question
was who doesn't do that properly?
I'm not gonna name anyone in particular,
but just to give you an example of what
I've seen on social media, I've seen some
very well known neobanks advertising
that they open branches, physical
branches in different locations with
photos showing the branches and so on.
But actually when you go on site
in person it's not there yet.
It's still under.
so basically, don't lie,
is gonna be , my message.
Yeah.
It happens.
some people do that.
And maybe they don't
realise, or, they're eager.
It's easy to be under pressure
to have targets sometimes
let's do a volume over quality.
happens often.
We are in a very high
pressure environment.
But my advice is always take a
step back and think like, is
what I'm sharing a hundred percent
accurate and true and real?
because if you start saying something
that you're not sure about or it's not
complete then, and you're missing the
mark and put yourself at risk, right?
I don't think that company has been
caught by anyone or ashamed publicly , but
know that People in my vicinity they all
know about it because We all see it.
Yeah.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah, just like
move fast and break things just
doesn't work in FinTech, I think,
because it's just too risky, right?
The trust that you lose.
And it's been really
interesting moving to the us.
Like obviously as a new person,
there's um, you know, you're opening
bank accounts and all these things.
I think one big thing has
been bad customer service.
So I won't name names, but
it's a very well-known FinTech
that everyone uses here.
And it's, they've been,
there's been a lot of issues.
And when the customer service is
terrible, and when I say terrible,
it's like laughably terrible.
As in they're just like, oh, try again.
And then they quit the chat or whatever.
that's really bad.
That makes you worried because
then you're like who am I gonna
talk to when things go wrong?
So I think customer
service is an easy one.
And it's not really marketing I guess, but
in a way it is, it's kind of lifecycle.
' Mathieu Limousi: and that's maybe
more complicated in the B2C world,
but also sometimes, when you are
in a company like, like to, you're
the rails, you're the background.
offering your services to organisations
that are customer facing like
consumer facing, like we have
bank customers, we have remittance
company customers and so on.
and you see the kind of complain
you receive , as the infrastructure
provider in the background.
Sometimes you are bombarded with a
request of my funds didn't arrive and
so on, because they've somehow figured
out, like is one of the rails that,
that company, well, I cannot help you.
I'm sorry.
Like
We don't know that, like talk
to your customers, but we
help our customers obviously.
But it's interesting to see
how you can still be exposed as
to be brand to consumer trust.
And that's uh, yeah,
Araminta Robertson: on that topic I
was listening to one of your podcasts
where you talk about your time at
Fluter Wave and there was like a
tough period where you got like
bad press and all this kinda stuff.
And I think that's a really interesting
example of how you rebuild that
trust because it is true that
it's so hard to build it, but then
something happens, you lose it.
How do you rebuild it?
And I'd love if you could tell
more about that story and how you
rebuilt that trust at flood Wave.
Mathieu Limousi: Yeah.
I think, you know, flood wave about maybe
a year before I joined the company had
been accused of the worst thing that
you can be accused when you're a payments
company in terms of money laundering
and activity and things like that.
and a lot of time when you are in the
situation, when you're being cornered
and accused and even wrongly accused,
especially wrongly accused, like
that was the case for flood wave.
You go in panic mode and you're like,
okay, people, if you are, the boards,
the execs around the table, they go
like, okay, let's not say anything.
Let's be quiet.
Let's deflect comments.
Let's issue a statement that is going to
be very vanilla, you know, legal verbatim
team stuff that, it doesn't say anything.
and let's wait for the next
news cycle and it's gonna pass.
And that doesn't work at all
because people just make assumptions
and they create their own reality
and in most cases, like it's worse
than the, the actual reality.
so when I joined Photo Wave we had this,
with this conversation with the CEO where
we decided, okay, that's, it's enough.
We need to take control
over the narrative, right?
So we need to be proactive, we
need to explain what's happening.
We need to explain the details
and be forward with it, right?
And identify news outlet that going
to be willing to work with you on
putting your message out and so on.
And just to be transparent and explain.
So it's bring back transparency.
That's what we did proactively
taking control of the narrative,
that worked really well, and
that was really well received.
over time.
And then from there on
also another tactic.
And that's something that I've been
using not just at Photo Wave, but
everywhere is as a, a small company,
although, photo wave is not small.
It's the biggest payments company of
Africa because FinTech of Africa it's
show up bigger than you are, you're
smaller, show up bigger than you are.
Marry your brand with
bigger brands than yours.
you're not them and you need to
be forward about this, but connect
your brand with them and explain
how you work together and so on.
And that you're going to, capture some of
the trust these brands built for decades
sometimes, or hundreds of years sometimes.
you're gonna capture some of that
and that's going to serve you being
recognised as, somebody trustworthy, So
doing that no matter what the way is,
when you are underwater and you don't
sign big customers, you don't have
big customers announcements, right?
But you also, payments especially, it's
a very tight network and everybody's
working with everybody, right?
Your, customers are your competitors
and your partners and so on.
So at some point you're going to partner
with somebody big use that announce that,
and that's what we did at float Wave.
we made some announcement with
some of the biggest companies
in the world at the time.
They were not our customers, right?
We were working together.
Or sometimes you just, even if
you use their service if they
allow you to communicate around
that, then it's a win, right?
You can build trust.
and so we've been using this
kind of tactics to really
turn the thing things around.
And really after six, nine months,
we started hearing back, like, from
existing customers that stuck with us
from all customers we haven't talked
to that we had lost a year ago or
two years ago, almost came back and
was like, oh we start hearing more
and more about you and investors.
Same thing.
So that works really well.
yeah,
Araminta Robertson: yeah, I love that.
Yeah.
Like kind of, you want a connection with
other big brands, kind of borrow the trust
that they have, obviously legitimately.
But I think that's a really smart way
to Rebuild that trust and show that
you're trustworthy and on that topic
as well, like, we've talked about AI
workflows, I think it's content is like
one of the first marketing activities
that has been kind of, how do I say it?
Like analysed or taken apart with
ai, but I think you have to be super
careful because do it too much and
it affects, that trust building
exercise that content has to do.
So, in your content creation workflows,
how have you tried to balance that
and use AI to improve your content
workflows and use it without well,
ensuring that it's just not AI
slop, it's actually genuinely good.
Mathieu Limousi: Human
is the answer, right?
always be there always be part of
the process of maybe for identifying
what topic you're going to talk
about because, we start using
these kind of things, right?
We plug our AI bots into, ah, ref for
instance, to understand like, what are
the topics I need to be talking about.
Or we plug our AI bots into a gong
recording, call recordings with customers,
and we understand where they talk about.
And then we, like we got a lot of ideas
on, okay, what contents do we need to
develop, what topics we need to address
in the upcoming three months or three
weeks for that matter with, there's
a lot more velocity now with ai.
But, make sure you look at
it what are the, the outputs?
What are the recommendations?
Understand why, is it still
on, aligned with your brand?
And you need to take that into
consideration constantly, right?
Is it aligned with my brand?
Is it serving my objectives of building
trust, of building love for the brand?
is it answering the, actual, major
points that the customers are raising?
Or is it just an anecdote?
So if you don't bring your human judgement
in there you miss the mark sometimes.
And then once you, you process the
content development, of course you
need to be careful, you know, I was
at the, marketing FinTech hub summer
conference last week in London.
And there was this amazing marketer
her name slips in my mind, but she
was in on this panel and she went
on maternity leave and she came
back maybe three, four months ago.
And since then since she's back now,
she sees some words that were never
being used before, like moat and it's
everywhere in every single LinkedIn
post that you read, because they're all
it was like, who is using this word?
Like, it, like nobody used
that word . Like, since when?
Well, since Claude is here, Yeah.
And so, the tones is very important,
to review this to train your AI
well and to be on top of it, always.
Araminta Robertson: Mean, I
think that's what's so difficult.
Like are you saying then that you
would use AI for research, connected
to your hfs, all that, but you wouldn't
use it for contact creation then?
Mathieu Limousi: And then you use
it for content creation as well.
But when you do that, You still use it for
content creation, but when you do that,
also have, again, the human needs to be
there to train and retrain your boat so
that you don't use those, those words
so that the message that goes out and
that, that depends on your brand, right?
Obviously.
But in FinTech, in payments, we also
want to be simple and we don't want to be
doing long-winded, complicated sentences
and so on, because you lose people.
But you use ai too much without training
them properly, without paying attention
to what they do enough, they're going
to use superlatives everywhere and you
see it happening all the time on the,
all those LinkedIn posts and so on.
So for me, that's really important.
Put the human in the
process review train better.
Like it's a, having the feedback loop
into your ai content developing agents.
Yeah.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah we found, I
mean we've been, as a content marketing
agency, we've been testing this to death.
And what we have found, interestingly,
so some people will say they like
to do it for research and for it,
and the AI puts together an outline
and then a human does a writing.
We have actually found the best process
is always have an expert interview
or an expert input in some way.
And a human puts together an outline.
And the outline is very in depth,
like so in depth that you can just
connect the bullets and it's almost
an article, you know what I mean?
So the content there is original
and unique and then the AI does
writing and when you do most of
the, when the input is high quality.
So it's the output, like I've always
found, it's all about the input.
And so that's why I'm
asking about your workflow.
'cause I'm really curious about what you
found has worked and we have found that,
yeah, the input needs to be done by a
person and then the writing is fantastic.
Like the AI does a really good job.
And then the edit and then you still
need someone to edit it and review
it and make sure it works well.
So, and even then we don't
do it for all of our clients.
So if the topic is really complicated, we
prefer if the person does the writing and
even this AI assisted workflow, like we
won't do every single article like this.
Some of them will be written by a person.
'cause you also have to be
careful with Google penalising
you and things like that.
So that's why I was asking
about your workflow.
Is there anything there that you've
tested and you found, does it
work or that works really well?
Mathieu Limousi: so there's
different types of content as well?
right?
When you
do an SEO
blog, it doesn't really matter
because you're not gonna put this
front and centre on your website.
it's not gonna be in depth information.
it's going to be driving traffic, ensuring
visibility but it's not gonna be the end
point of anyone visiting your website.
And so, when you build this, what I
call like low value content, like an
SEO article, it's fine to do, to have
the research purely made by a bot.
Where it's not fine is where you
need human intervention is making
sure this is aligned with the rest
of your brain, with your editorial
guidelines and so on, right?
At, at, on the research front.
And then yes, after the, the
development, you need to have
human input on high value contents.
Like the, the market research that
we run, this was written by ai,
what AI helped us with is
analyse some data because we had
thousands of gigabits of data.
I'm saying whatever, I don't know what We
measure this in, but we had tonnes of data
and just to go through all the numbers and
identify the trends and so on manually or
By human, it would've taken a long time.
So we used AI a lot for that.
But then the writing of the actual
piece of content has been human made.
Araminta Robertson: Interesting.
So different types of content,
different for the SEO blog.
I know what you mean.
I would say, however, it's often
the first point of contact that
someone has with your brand.
So I, to us, like we still really care,
we still want it to be very high quality.
So I think you also have to be
careful about not making it too,
like people do read them, especially
if they're complicated topics.
Uh, I don't know, list of payment methods
or payment orchestration or whatever.
So when it's your first point of
contact with a brand and it's AI
slop, I think that's a bit risky.
And also Google will not bring it up,
as in you'll get de ranked and stuff.
So I think it's also a, I know SEO blogs
is tempting to like scale with ai, but
I find that you have to be also quite
careful 'cause you never know the journey
that someone could be their first article.
So, but yeah.
Anyway, it's an interesting,
it's an interesting dilemma.
Mathieu Limousi: the RSEO blogs
are not the, the piece of content
that payments expert would will,
Araminta Robertson: Mm-hmm.
Mathieu Limousi: yeah.
Araminta Robertson: I mean, it depends.
We found that payment experts
definitely read pieces of content.
The thing is, a lot of them will
read it through LLMs, though.
It's true.
Right?
They'll do their research
via chat, BT or whatever.
And that will draw from your blog as well.
So that's why I think it's not, it's,
if it's gonna be crawled by LLMs, then
having a high quality piece that has
all the technical information in it will
also make sure that you turn up an l lm.
So, yeah.
It depends a little bit.
But I was also gonna ask like, how
do you track results with content?
'cause it sounds like content
right now is mainly, as you said,
thought leadership, high level.
How do you know if it's working?
How do you track, and I know it,
it depends a lot on the type as
well and where you promote it.
But like, how do you track and know
that, confidently content is working?
Mathieu Limousi: it's really interesting
challenge that we are having.
the growl is to understand the
impact on the revenue for content.
That's the dream for any marketer in the
B2B space where we have cell cycle of,
anywhere between 12 months to two years.
It doesn't make sense to do that.
So the way we track it is we look at
purely the consumption of the content.
Has it been consumed,
And then
has it been consumed by the right
people in the right organisation?
Right.
So we're very focused organisation.
We go after specific
accounts that we want to win.
So we target these people.
We advertise to them.
we invite them.
We meet them at events and so on.
And we distribute our
content to these people.
We invite them to webinars or, we make
sure they sign up to our newsletter.
that's how we do it.
And then we track every single
interactions that people working at this
company have without content, right?
and any type of touch points that
we offer,
Araminta Robertson: Is it through like
dream data or something like one of
Mathieu Limousi: we're using Dream Data.
Yes, we're using Dream Data to
do that, to measure engagement.
We're using Six Sense as well.
basically.
That's how we do it.
I wish I could say, we need to publish
that piece of content again, or
something similar because it worked.
And we have revenue from that.
we can look back, but the content
we that was consumed three years
ago is not relevant anymore.
And you don't know what's relevant
now . so we go more by consumption.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
I mean it's so tough.
Also, like in today's world,
it's all very multi-touch, right?
It's all lots of different
touch points, it's not just
that piece of content, right?
They also saw you at an event
or webinar, so ultimately it's
just one of the touch points.
It's so
Mathieu Limousi: And we see like
accounts we see they have over 200
touch points before, before they start
generating revenue right from, so
Araminta Robertson: yeah, yeah.
It's way more complicated than
we, if only was easier, but no.
And my last question is, what
pieces of one piece or multiple of
content are you proudest of Atunes.
Mathieu Limousi: I really liked
the, the research that we did mostly
because it was very insightful for
everybody internally already, and
we had some, some great learnings.
It's not just about confirming
our knowledge, that's what
is interesting, right?
when you have those aha moment and
that day in, day out, we talk about
stablecoin, for instance, and then when
you realise people don't know what it is.
But for us it's bread
and butter is like, Yeah.
so that's the kind of
content I'm proud of.
Yeah.
Araminta Robertson: Is
this your latest report?
Which one is it
Mathieu Limousi: It's,
Yeah, this is our latest report.
The
uh,
Araminta Robertson:
Latest report Interrupter.
Okay.
Okay.
Very cool.
Yeah, I'll add that as a link then.
Yeah.
Perfect.
Well, thanks so much Matthew.
It's been fantastic to have you on.
I think especially the fact that you've
worked with so many cross-border payment
companies, you must have so many,
insights that are really interesting,
like to that specific industry.
So it's been really great
to, to hear about those.
And yeah, thank you again for
speaking at our conference last
week and uh, for coming on.
Mathieu Limousi: Well, thanks
for the invitation, Ramin.
I really enjoyed the conversation.
outro: Thanks for listening.
You can find show notes and
information about guests@www.mint
copywriting studios.com/podcast.
And finally, huge thanks to orama
TV for producing this podcast.
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see you at the next episode.