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Welcome to Funnel Vision, Hosted by Mikael Dia, Founder & CEO of Funnelytics - a revolutionary marketing analytics software that allows marketers and business owners to map and track their sales and marketing campaigns visually.
We feature Marketing Agency Owners and Performance Marketers to highlight the tactics, tools and strategies they use to grow their own business and their clients.
Funnel Vision brings you 3 episodes every single week that aim to highlight the strategies used by successful agency owners and performance marketers in a 20 minute format.
Aside from their unique topic of the day, our guests always answer one big question:
What is your best growth tactic?
For more content, check out our YouTube page, newsletter or connect with Mikael Dia on LinkedIn!
[00:00:00] Mikael: What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the Funnel Vision show. I am very excited for today's guest because we are talking about a topic that is very, very important today in the world of digital marketing. And that is about privacy, compliance and how you can as an agency owner and as a marketer really help your clients and your businesses grow through this ever changing landscape of.
[00:00:33] Mikael: privacy and all that. So my guest today is Mate Bergen and he is the founder of a company called Enzuzo. I'm going to let him introduce himself as normal. So Mate, let's start with your humble brag. Why should people listen to you? What have you been able to do for yourself? What have you been able to do for your clients?
[00:00:54] Mate: Thanks, Michael, I'm really, grateful to be on your program and I'm excited about your, new [00:01:00] podcast. And, I wanna introduce Zuo to your, audience, as we are, solving a new problem in a new world where, marketers have been used to growing their businesses.
[00:01:12] Mate: Based on, freely available personal data. And that is now changing. the concept of, how do you get your customers data so you can grow your business, the rules of that are changing where all of a sudden now you need to be aware of compliance laws and regulations. And how players like Google are, enforcing those regulations and making everyone, do things a little bit differently.
[00:01:34] Mate: So we are basically helping, customers in particular, marketing agencies, grow their businesses in this new world where compliance all of a sudden matters and it's become a barrier to revenue for many people.
[00:01:47] Mikael: Yeah, I have actually just signed up and installed, Enzuso on my website. So now we have it and I understand kind of the back story and you and I have had a lot of conversations, around this [00:02:00] topic.
[00:02:00] Mikael: So let's take a quick step back. how did you get into this? How did you decide that you wanted to get into the world of compliance? tell everybody a little bit about your story, in terms of entrepreneurship.
[00:02:12] Mate: Yeah, for sure. I built, two companies prior to this, both successful. I sold both of them to public, US companies.
[00:02:20] Mate: this is my third company that I started I had exited my last company and I took a little bit of time off and I started doing kind of research on my next project. I started asking actually a lot of my, friends who are, CEOs of SAS companies, mostly based in the KW region.
[00:02:36] Mate: I started asking them, what problems do you have? you feel like you need either a product that's out there doesn't. It's not sufficiently, meeting your requirements and compliance and data privacy became, one of the hot topics, GDPR had just come in and, this is back in 2018 and people were feeling like, this is an area that's going to become, much more prominent at that time.
[00:02:57] Mate: It was mostly, something that [00:03:00] was in the enterprise space. and it hadn't hit kind of SMB quite yet, and smaller organizations. And so we decided that's how we kind of got into it. mostly from my network. that's where the pain point discovery came from.
[00:03:13] Mikael: Yeah, it's funny.
[00:03:14] Mikael: I remember 2018 is when we started Finalytics and, the data privacy stuff was just starting to pick up, GDPR obviously starting to kind of take over. People were asking us about tracking and what does that look like? And we had to get very compliant, from the early days. but now it's starting to really accelerate.
[00:03:33] Mikael: It's starting to accelerate on the consumer side a lot more talk to us about what's happening. From a Google standpoint, in terms of, compliance, in terms of data privacy, and why is this so important for marketers to stay on top of?
[00:03:48] Mate: Yeah, for sure. So, I think a lot of marketers will know when you go and try and, let's say, build a new website or a new brand, and you want to start growing, through digital marketing, [00:04:00] whether it's, ads and CO one of the first things you gotta do is you gotta put in a tech stack, your CRM, your Google Analytics and put all that together.
[00:04:08] Mate: I think anyone who's done that understands this is a very complex, just to get that right, to get the tracking and to get, you know, the funnel visibility and just to be able to answer. What's working, what's not working, what do you double down on? What do you kind of not do again? that's a challenge and it's challenge resources know how to do that.
[00:04:28] Mate: Well, now all of a sudden, Google has come in with new rules called, you know, Google consent mode, where you're not. You don't, you can't just, get the, the marketing and the tech stuff right now. There's a compliance piece. So previously the, the challenge was, okay, you need someone who understands both marketing, but also tech development and all that.
[00:04:49] Mate: Now the compliance piece is like a third leg of the stool where you also need to understand that. And that's just the complexity of understanding how all those three things tie in. This is not [00:05:00] easy. And with the rules that Google has implemented, they basically said, you know, okay. If you're going to implement a tech stack to track your funnel, you can only track your funnel on consented data, meaning that the user now has to say, I consent to having my data tracked.
[00:05:17] Mate: And if the user doesn't sit, it doesn't go into Google analytics. It doesn't go into Google ads. It doesn't go all the way into all your funnel, funnel, visibility tools and analytics tools. and that really changes the game for marketers because now, you know, what we found is marketers implement Google consent model, which right now is the thing that's happening in Europe.
[00:05:36] Mate: They will typically lose somewhere between 30, in some cases, 90 percent visibility of their track, and then. Which is massive. So. We've had clients and we've had clients. So what we do is we come in and we not only help them be compliant to the Google's rules, but we also help get that visibility back.
[00:05:55] Mate: So in one case, we have a case study where, an agency, got a [00:06:00] customer who had lost 90 percent of their funnel visibility and using Anzuzo, they were able to recover them back to only a 10 percent loss. So 90 percent visibility gain, which was a massive. impact for their business.
[00:06:12] Mate: so what we've done with that capability is, we've armed agencies with a new source of revenue. So one message I have to a lot of marketing agencies, compliance, you might think about compliance as a cost used to be true prior to this year, but with Enzuso compliance is a new source of revenue for you, because if you can help your clients.
[00:06:32] Mate: Solve this problem, not just getting them compliant to Google's new rules and all the new regulations, but also giving them the optimal funnel visibility, then people are willing to pay for that because that's revenue enabling and also for a lot of agencies. you know, the tracking doesn't work, you might have a hard time executing on an ads campaign or an SEO campaign or whatever your source of revenue is, or building out a new website.
[00:06:59] Mate: this is going [00:07:00] to start to become a revenue blocker. So not only do you unblock your own revenue, but you also have a new source of revenue and that's what we're. Enabling agencies to do.
[00:07:10] Mikael: Yeah, I think it's very important to reemphasize what you just said in terms of what's happening here. So in short, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but basically at this stage, Google has said, okay, if your website isn't compliant and it's a little bit more prevalent right now in the EU than it is in the U.
[00:07:30] Mikael: S. And. Canada, however, if your website isn't compliant, then we will not pull any data back into Google Analytics or back into Google Ads, which means that you will have zero attribution. We probably won't even show your ads at some stage, and you won't have any sort of visibility. In your metrics. So you'll spend money on Google ads if we show them, but you're not going to see what's happening with those.
[00:07:59] Mikael: So [00:08:00] in Zuzo, basically you come in, you help, people, set up the right privacy policy, the right terms of service, and then basically create a, little cookie consent banner. Where now, as a website, I'm compliant, and if somebody hits the allow button, now all of a sudden, Google Analytics and Google gets all of that data back, and you gain that visibility, and better yet, you've created some tools that make, that compliance aspect, and that cookie banner, you can kind of split test it, you can run experiments to try to get the consent up so that you have more and more visibility and more tracking data.
[00:08:41] Mikael: Is that a pretty fair summary of, everything you do? Yeah, exactly.
[00:08:45] Mate: So, you know, there's kind of like two phases to it. one is you want to get your website compliant, which is just a good thing for all the regulations, gain trust with your users and comply to the new Google rules, but then once [00:09:00] you implement compliance, you will lose.
[00:09:03] Mate: Inevitably, no matter what you do, you will lose some final visibility. And then the question is you want to optimize. And the reason, you lose visibility is because no website is going to have a hundred percent of users that click on that cook or some percentage are going to say, nah, I'm not, I'm not serious.
[00:09:20] Mate: I don't want you to have my data, but where are you placed? The banner, what you put on it, how you organize it, how you brand it, all that tends to have dramatic impact at the percentage of users that accept. And this is what we can help, people optimize analytics and data we can help optimize.
[00:09:38] Mate: And it's a little bit different for every website. And it's something that needs to be continuously monitored and that requires, the right kind of expertise. So there's kind of two parts to the solution. One is getting compliant and the other one is optimizing the conversion rates. Thanks.
[00:09:52] Mikael: Now, tell me a little bit about how it works from a non identifiable [00:10:00] information.
[00:10:00] Mikael: So, for example, I mean, typically what we find is with GDPR and all that stuff, as long as the identifiable information is Stripped and not there, you can still ultimately track a user ABC and user ABC went to page A and page B and page C. Is that not the case anymore? Is that what you're basically saying is that as of, you know, on Google's new policies, the minute somebody says I decline, Like that user A, B, C, X, Y, Z, just does not exist anymore.
[00:10:34] Mate: Yeah. really important concept. The IP address of the user is considered PII, personally identifiable information. So if you click, I don't accept your IP address, doesn't go into Google analytics, doesn't go into Google ads, doesn't go into all your CRMs and doesn't propagate through. You need IP address for just everything, right?
[00:10:57] Mate: So what Google does have, [00:11:00] if you don't accept, they have, basically, an anonymized id. They have your browser signature, they have the time and date. They have the URL that you clicked on. So there's a little bit of data and. They apply, a behavioral model using machine learning to look at, okay, a bunch of users like you, what they typically do, they will apply a behavioral model to saying Google Analytics show you what the estimate is.
[00:11:27] Mate: Of that traffic might look like problem is that behavioral model only kicks in after a lot of clicks, like you have to have, almost a hundred thousand users a month for that behavioral model to click in and out for a period of like a month. So a lot of small websites won't even see that. And even the websites that you do, it isn't very transparent.
[00:11:49] Mate: Like you don't know exactly how good it is and all of that. So that's the problem. when you click accept. IP goes through all the tracking works, just like it normally would. But when you click reject, it's a very [00:12:00] finite amount of information, which really makes it difficult to track all of the things that you want to track.
[00:12:05] Mate: and so, you know, the first step is really maximizing, the people that you get except from that's, which is an exercise in gaining, understanding who your users are, regaining their trust, knowing how to communicate to them and making sure that the compliance. piece and the marketing piece are really nicely integrated.
[00:12:24] Mate: That's, really important. And then the other part is, for the stuff, the traffic that isn't accepted, where you have minimal information, how do we use minimal information to help us, infer, what's going on and also to optimize the consent. that's really kind of what we do.
[00:12:43] Mikael: so tell me where you think this is going in terms of Europe is obviously a little bit more advanced than North America or, further ahead in terms of privacy compliance and stuff. And we know that that's going to [00:13:00] come into, the United States and that's going to happen in North America as well.
[00:13:05] Mikael: But where is it going? I mean, marketers and businesses need information to create customized experiences. Nobody wants uncustomized experiences. There's not a single human who's like, yeah, don't show me ads that are relevant to me or don't create an experience that is ultimately catered to me. but on the flip side, every single person is like, yeah, I want to be private.
[00:13:30] Mikael: I want to be, you know, I want things hidden. So where do you feel is going to be that balance between those things? Is it strictly this kind of concept of consent and some people will get customized experiences and others won't? Is it more? I'd love to hear your thoughts on where, where you feel this is going in the future.
[00:13:51] Mate: Great question. I think the world, the world of customized experiences will continue to exist. It will kind of [00:14:00] fragment into a whole bunch of, I guess, I don't want to use the word, word walled garden, but I think every brand will now have the responsibility to get consented data. If you have consented data, you can do all of that customizable, wall.
[00:14:15] Mate: a great example of what not to do is what happened to Facebook with between Facebook and Apple, right? So Facebook used to basically buy private, data off of, you know, from, from apps in the app store. And a couple of years ago, Apple changed rules and said, okay, any app collecting data now has to, by default, ask for permission.
[00:14:37] Mate: So now the opt in rate went from something like very high, like 98 percent down to like something really small, like 4 percent or something like that, because the average person, what's their benefit to passing on that data to the third party? However, the app itself has a little bit of leverage with the customer.
[00:14:54] Mate: They can say, well, Hey, well, so say you're a TikTok and you know, for me to use TikTok, I [00:15:00] have to allow them to use my data. what the regulators are basically doing is they're saying, Hey, if you want, to use your data to run your app and personalize your app, that's great, but if you want to sell that data to third parties, that's much harder and there's now opt out mechanisms like the California do not sell my data opt out.
[00:15:21] Mate: Is it's, it's much easier for users to say, okay, I want to use this app and I want to give my data for the purposes of using this app, but I don't want to allow this person to pass that data on to third parties and just, and, and a lot of the tracking and the, and, and, you know, the marketing ecosystem relied on this sort of really available third party data, and that's the part that's, that's disappearing.
[00:15:45] Mate: So the concept of first party is, is that's not going away. That's going to become the most important thing, which is. whatever, if you're an app or a website, you're a brand, you, your most valuable thing that you can go is accumulate first party [00:16:00] data from your users and customers, which means you're making the trade up.
[00:16:03] Mate: You're giving something of value to your customer in exchange. They're trusting you with their data and then all of that customization and all that works, but you can't just go out and get all kinds of other data. without, having contracts and agreements, permissions, consent and all that.
[00:16:20] Mikael: So a question about this, and then we'll, wrap up here. tools like Apollo and clay these massive tools, not zoom info, but seamless, these tools that help create, records and, populate. data on people, where did they fall into this?
[00:16:39] Mikael: are those going to slowly start becoming banned? what are your thoughts around that? cause technically, I can upload a person's name and start collecting and getting all of this data on them, right?
[00:16:51] Mate: Yeah, and one thing you'll see to some of those tools will only work in the U.
[00:16:56] Mate: S. They actually will not work in Europe. Not all of them, and the ones that do [00:17:00] work in Europe, they'll have a spectral flag that say, okay, they're not on, but in Europe, by default, they'll have a flag that says, okay, turn me on, but you're taking on the responsibility and the liability, right?
[00:17:08] Mate: So typically those tools tend not to be GDPR compliant, but there's loopholes and some jurisdictions they can get around. And as more and more privacy, because we're now seeing, you know, every year there's four or five states are passing new, stronger privacy laws, there's discussion of, more a federal law as well, both in Canada and the U.
[00:17:26] Mate: S., these loopholes are starting to close and it'll become much more difficult as we go on for these tools to function. a lot of marketers are facing, a lot of challenges there because on one hand, outbound is getting really much more difficult because nobody, you know, uses a phone anymore.
[00:17:44] Mate: People don't look at their email and it's just, you know, that that's cold outbound is getting harder and harder. And then some of these tools that are trying to, solve that problem, make that more efficient are getting kind of squeezed in by data privacy laws, which is, you know, I [00:18:00] think what's going to become really valuable is, building audiences and communities where you do have consent permission, whether it's, you built an audience on LinkedIn or Tik And those people have given you permission to communicate with them.
[00:18:16] Mate: And then you're targeting that audience or whether you build an audience through some kind of a community or people that are just finding you and basically signing up to your service or newsletter and all of that, getting, you know, building. Building an audience from the ground up, that's basically going to be the most important thing going forward.
[00:18:36] Mikael: Yeah, I agree. it is, building an audience and owning that data is super important. anyone listening, if you want to be compliant, nzuzo. com, we'll put that in the show notes, nzuzo. com. we installed it on our website.
[00:18:52] Mikael: It is one of the simplest, fastest user interfaces to kind of just get compliant. And if you're an agency, well, it's just a new revenue [00:19:00] stream for you to ultimately be able to get your clients to be compliant. they pay you for that. So, Mate, thank you so much for, for being on sharing this and your expertise.
[00:19:11] Mikael: Where can people find out more about you? besides just checking out Enzuzo.
[00:19:16] Mate: Well, you can go to enzuzo. com, E N Z U Z O dot com. And for agencies that want to turn compliance into a revenue stream for the agency, Email us at ROI at Enzuzo. com. So ROI at E N Z U Z O. com. And we will send you a playbook on how to turn compliance into a revenue stream.
[00:19:37] Mikael: Amazing. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. Mate, thank you very much for being on.
[00:19:42] Mate: Thank you so much.