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The Bigger Stage w/ Matt Stone is a conversation series about leadership, relationships, and the stories that expand influence.
Matt Stone sits down with CEOs, founders, leaders, and creatives to explore the human moments behind growth—how trust is built, how visibility changes responsibility, and how storytelling becomes a leadership skill as stakes rise.
This show is for entrepreneurs and leaders stepping into bigger roles, bigger audiences, and bigger impact—who want to lead with clarity, credibility, and connection, not performance.
The Bigger Stage - Pat Miller
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[00:00:00]
[00:00:47] Matt Stone: My guest today is Pat Miller, the Friday's Off Guy, founder of the small business owners community, SBOC, and host of the Daily Live Show, Businessing with Pat Miller. Before all of that, he spent more [00:01:00] than two decades in radio, which means he learned early how to hold an audience's attention when the mic is live and there's nowhere to hide.
[00:01:08] When he left broadcasting, Pat discovered what he calls the loneliest job in the world. Being a small business owner, can you relate? So what did he do? He built the room he wished he could walk into. That became. SBOC, and it's grown into a community, a membership, an annual conference that's drawn. Speakers like Mel Robbins, Mike Michalowicz, I, I don't know how to say that name.
[00:01:33] You're gonna teach me and Sahil Bloom. His TEDx talk is called Life's Too Short to Build Someone Else's Dream. That's where I wanna start because Pat stepped onto a lot of new stages, and I wanna ask him what it's actually taken on the inside to keep stepping up what he's learned, building a business that exists to help other people build theirs, and how you scale a message without losing what made it land in the first place.
[00:01:58] So Pat Miller, [00:02:00] welcome to The Bigger Stage.
[00:02:01] Pat Miller: Well, thanks for having me, Matt. Great to see you. I appreciate being on the show.
[00:02:04] Matt Stone: Thank you. Thank you. All right. I feel like I'm, I'm amongst, I'm, I'm in the presence of broadcasting greatness. Uh, so, you know, I'm, uh, what am I gonna do now? You know, it's like, geez, don't critique me, Pat.
[00:02:18] Pat Miller: Oh my gosh.
[00:02:19] Matt Stone: Yeah,
[00:02:20] so listen, um, you've got a great show and we'll get at the end, before the end, we'll make sure everyone knows where to, we'll put it in the show notes where to find you.
[00:02:28] Um, but you're such an inspiring figure. I think I was introduced to you by a mutual, two mutual contacts who were like, you've gotta go talk to and you're in Milwaukee. So I kept hearing Pat Miller, Pat Miller, Pat Miller, and then I realized why that, that you really have built a robust community that you serve in many different ways, and I want to get into that.
[00:02:49] But first I want to go back and get a little bit of your origin first, and then how you found your way into the community that you're serving. Um, so how did you get started in. [00:03:00] Communication and broadcasting and radio and that, that sort of thing. What was the inspiration for you?
[00:03:06] Pat Miller: It was suggested to me by a high school teacher. I
[00:03:09] Matt Stone: Huh?
[00:03:10] Pat Miller: speech teacher, and the speech teacher said, Hey, you should do speech team. I was clearly one of the cool kids in school that was on speech team, you know, all the cool kids did speech team, not football, speech team. I went into a category that they called radio speaking. You had to deliver, prepare, and deliver a five minute newscast. And that was the competition. So I, I did it and the professor said, you really have a gift here. You should pursue this at college. And I was in high school in central Illinois. so happens one of the greatest communication school for broadcasting is in central Illinois, Illinois State University, which no one would know unless you were specifically looking for a broadcasting degree. So I went to Illinois State, they had a college radio station. I spent literally every day of my college [00:04:00] career on campus, all summer during breaks. I never left. a professional radio job before I graduated, became an executive, uh, a year after I left school. And then I was off to the races following the radio dream all throughout the Midwest, and that's how we ended up here in Milwaukee. I was on the air in programming stations and marketing guy up until 2018 when I decided to leave the industry. So that's, that's how it happened, right?
[00:04:27] Matt Stone: Wow. You know, as I listen to you speak, and as a person who's been on a microphone a lot, I am, I'm paying attention to whether I'm consciously doing it or not. Like your control of your voice. Uh, the way you're using your breath, your diaphragm, like those, the things that if you're in, if you're, you know, if you're in doing that kind of work that you notice.
[00:04:49] And so I'm wondering, what did you learn when you went to broadcasting school
[00:04:55] Pat Miller: O.
[00:04:56] Matt Stone: and what did you have to learn after that that you didn't learn [00:05:00] in broadcasting school that you're bringing forward? Um, but what do you, just take us to broadcast, like what do you learn in broadcasting school?
[00:05:07] Pat Miller: The first thing, the most valuable thing that I learned in broadcasting school is that every communication is always one-on-one. Always, if you want to cut through on a YouTube video, you want to cut through on a stage. this interview today, it's always me and one other person. So if you listen to the stuff that I do, and this radio broadcasters are classic at this, they're talking to tens of thousands of people, but the pronoun is always you. You and I, it's never a group because people don't associate with a group. They, it's always interpersonal communication. When you communicate like that, you just take someone and they, they're right there with you sounds like a conversation. It doesn't sound like a broadcast, and that's something that I never thought about until you go to radio school and someone says that, Hey, don't do that.
[00:05:55] Do this. It's just a little thing and there's a million other things I could share, but that's one [00:06:00] that I still use to this day because I think it helps make everything that I do more personal for the person that consumes it.
[00:06:06] Matt Stone: Wow. Now what, what about when you're like, for a lot of business owners, they're, they, they, maybe they're going on their first podcast, you know, and what kind of advice do you give people to do better on a podcast as a guest?
[00:06:20] Pat Miller: It is hard because getting on a podcast is really just an interpersonal conversation that hopefully people enjoy. You should be a good guest by doing your homework, understanding what the guest or the host is all about and what the show is about, to make sure that you show up and try and add value to the listeners of that show. the end of the day, every podcast host wants a guest that's gonna give value freely. Not try and sell things, not try and be cooler than the room. The more authentic and real you can be, not only the better it is for the host that's trying to extract value, listeners can tell if you're full of it, they can tell if this guy's putting it [00:07:00] on. So I always tell people, just be yourself freely. Share everything that you know. Do your homework and you'll be fine.
[00:07:07] Matt Stone: Who were your early inspirations back then that you, people you aspired to be like?
[00:07:12] Pat Miller: I was a program director, which meant I was a brand manager. So it was my job to know the business side, the targeting, the strategy, how the music was constructed, how the contests were constructed, and how to coach and select the talent, the on-air talent, and manage them. So I always gravitated towards the executives and the thought leaders. the communication space. So I've been reading Seth Godin since Seth Godin came out. There were, uh, leaders in the broadcasting industry that I looked up to and consumed everything that they did. it was always kind of a different deal because if you put on headphones in the nineties and two thousands, every person's like, oh, Howard Stern, or some other major air talent. [00:08:00] I had a lot of respect for the air talent, but I always identified more as. A programmer build a better mouse trap kind of guy. It was always the business side, which kind of probably led me to where I am now, but that's kind of the path that I took. It wasn't a certain air talent or two that I wanted to be like.
[00:08:17] Matt Stone: I mean, that brings me to the point of just the wisdom of know all the aspects of the business. If you can know what's, even if you are more of an on-air person or you like being on the stage. Understanding how the lights operate, how the sound operates, who, who sets up the seating, you know, all of those things helps you be a better, well, I say operator to icon, how, how you can be more in command of your presence and be more of service to everybody who's there in, in, in the production is what I'm hearing from you.
[00:08:50] Pat Miller: Well, and if you look at the greats, no matter what, they are thi complicated things become simple, and everyone in their orbit gets treated with respect. [00:09:00] That happens when you know a little bit about what everyone is doing. So I might not know how to do the lighting, but I can respect the guy that is doing the lighting 'cause I know enough about how hard that job is. And when you treat people like they're smart and talented and valued, member of the team, whether they're a, a small contributing job or the biggest wig in the room. start building these authentic relationships, and I find that's a good reason to learn a little bit about everything. So you can just treat people, treat people with respect, and be a good person because that stuff pays dividends.
[00:09:33] I totally believe in that.
[00:09:35] Matt Stone: What was your first pinch me moment as a broadcaster?
[00:09:39] Pat Miller: Oh wow, this is gonna go back. It was the. Mid nineties and I had become a program director. that meant you were talking with the record industry folks and they were trying to get you to play their music on the radio. And we were in a small market, Bloomington normal, Illinois top 40 radio station. So it was not a very [00:10:00] big town.
[00:10:00] But if we added a record, meaning we started playing a song that turned into. Something they could take to Chicago and St. Louis and say, Hey, WBNQ is playing the record. You should play it too. It's starting to get traction. So that's how the game worked. Well, they came to us with a nineties band that you may not remember, blessed Union of Souls.
[00:10:21] Matt Stone: Oh my God,
[00:10:22] Pat Miller: or five hits on the radio. Does that ring a
[00:10:25] Matt Stone: yes.
[00:10:26] Pat Miller: Yes.
[00:10:27] Matt Stone: it does. I can't believe it does, but yes.
[00:10:30] Pat Miller: Yes, nicest guys in the world and they called us up and said, Hey, we want Blessed Union to come to Bloomington Normal and do a show for the radio station. Would you do it? And I thought this was the greatest thing ever. And again, I was a baby program director.
[00:10:43] I had been a boss for two minutes did a show and it sold out and the band was so cool. And that's when I thought, oh, this is so great. I just, it was one of those moments where I thought the right career. This is a lot of
[00:10:57] Matt Stone: That's awesome. So you do all these [00:11:00] years of broadcasting, you're working on the mic and behind the mic, both over the years. Yeah.
[00:11:05] Pat Miller: Yeah. Morning shows, afternoon shows, midday, everything.
[00:11:08] Matt Stone: And, and then stuff happens.
[00:11:12] Situations happen. So tell us when, when is the first big transition from that? From what you were doing? Cutting your teeth, if you will. To the, to, in the inflection point of moving more towards what you're doing now, what, what was the first thing?
[00:11:28] Pat Miller: The name of the game in broadcasting is to go up in city size. The bigger town you go to, the more prestige and money that is associated. So we went from Bloomington Normal, Illinois to Des Moines, Iowa, to Lincoln, Nebraska, to Omaha, Nebraska to Milwaukee, and that is going up, up, up, up, up. So we're here in Milwaukee now, but back when I was in Omaha, I took a job at Omaha, program director of a top 40 hot ac. female targeted radio station. Loved the job. And one of the cities that I [00:12:00] wanted to go to was Denver. was a really prestigious, a hot AC is the type of station in Denver, it was called Mix. Anyway, there was an industry bulletin that came out and said this conglomerate that owned that station, they're not gonna have a program director anymore. They're gonna make one person do two stations. Because consolidation started in my time in the broadcasting industry and I thought to myself, whoa, wait a minute. If this top 40 market have the my style of station without a program director, I'm at risk. It was that month I went back to school and got my MBA. Because I thought it will not be long until people in Omaha and beyond say, Hey, people in Denver don't need this format. With a leader, you don't need a job anymore. So I always was really self-aware of, this is great, but the industry is consolidating and if [00:13:00] I want to feed the family, I might have to do something else.
[00:13:02] So I went back to school night school and, and got my MBA.
[00:13:05] Matt Stone: Wow. And how did that change your perspective, getting your MBA? You know, 'cause I, I don't know about you, but when you have a lot of experience in an area and then you go study something, you can kind of look back on what you learned then, and it gives it a different perspective. I wonder how your paradigm shifted.
[00:13:21] Pat Miller: When you are on the creative side. You need better ratings. You can't understand why the bosses won't give you more budget. You can't understand or empathize with the sales team that needs just this little thing to land the buy, and you won't give it to them for creative reasons. But when you start understanding the levers behind doing business, was a lot more empathetic on both of those accounts and, you know, studying the budget and understanding rates, and understanding inventory and how much it mattered. To get these deals done. Uh, it really opened my eyes to a lot of that stuff.
[00:13:57] Matt Stone: Amazing. Okay, so you get your MBA, [00:14:00] you're a smart guy. You're observing, you're, you're reading the tea leaves, you've got your finger in the wind, whatever the metaphor you want to use. And now you've positioned yourself to be able to do something to build, it's really not doing something different. It's building, you're building the whole time, but also adjusting to new market forces.
[00:14:19] Um, yeah. So how does, so the pandemic, like what, what was, is this around the pandemic when you really made the big leap or,
[00:14:27] Pat Miller: No, uh, it was before the pandemic I left the industry. So this is 20 13, 14 ish. We moved to Milwaukee and I moved to Milwaukee and was a program director for a startup radio station, uh, in one of the big radio station companies here in Milwaukee. So there was like the a. radio station and their FM sister station, and I was the FM sister station program director.
[00:14:48] Ran that station for a while, and then they moved me into director of marketing for both stations. back to your earlier, earlier point about knowing a little bit about everything, I was [00:15:00] now running the marketing for both stations, but I also started to just become fascinated with how these sales deals were made, I kind of became a specialist in. Go on the client call. Listen to the needs analysis of the small business owner they're trying to sell to, and then create a promotion or a giveaway or an event that will help maximize their budget. So I started building giveaways and really special sponsorships and live in-store activations and partnerships with festivals and events and all of these ways to drive people's businesses so little did I know, knowing what I'm doing now. My entire radio career, I was serving small business owners. I just didn't realize it. I was doing that in real time while getting paid to do it fortunately. So I was doing more and more and more of that, and I also had the chance to work with the Brewers and the Bucks and the Packers [00:16:00] and the big sports festivals.
[00:16:01] So it was this great lab that taught me how to serve entrepreneurs. I just didn't know I was doing it yet.
[00:16:09] Matt Stone: That's, that is such a powerful insight. Uh, it's all about service.
[00:16:15] Pat Miller: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:16] Matt Stone: It's all about service. Broadcasting isn't about me having a voice out there. It's about.
[00:16:20] Being of service and when you can. What I'm taking from you is that inspiration to just make sure that you're rooted in a spirit of service no matter what you do.
[00:16:30] And you'll be better off and your clients will be happy and, you know, and, and everything. Um, I have a side question 'cause I want to, we're getting to some really good stuff here. 'cause SBOC is like, really G Great. I saw a picture of you with like hundreds of people behind you in a room and I'm like, man, this guy's the, the Pied Piper of small business.
[00:16:51] But I'm wondering, I just have a side question that I have to ask just out of curiosity. So when you move around to these little markets, it's same with like [00:17:00] local tv, right? You start off with like the little tiny station and then your whole thing is like, I remember I lived in Eugene, Oregon three times.
[00:17:06] Eugene has a little market there and you go from there and if you, if you could get to Portland, it was like, ugh. And then some people from Portland ended up in New York. Um, in fact, who's that sports guy? Um, oh, he's always on ESPN. I'm forgetting his name now. Anyway, he's one of the most popular sports broadcasters.
[00:17:28] I remember when he was a local sports guy in Portland, Oregon.
[00:17:31] Pat Miller: Was that Colin
[00:17:32] Matt Stone: Yes. Colin Cowherd. Yeah. And there's been some weather people. Same
[00:17:36] Pat Miller: sure.
[00:17:37] Matt Stone: thing. Um, but how are the markets. Different to work in, like the skillset's the same, but when you move to Milwaukee, for example, which was a substantially bigger market, d do, do you, are there different other, are there other differences that a, that a lay person wouldn't really know about it?
[00:17:55] When you get up to that level, is it cultural differences? Is it like the [00:18:00] audiences are different or is it just a bigger market and it's pretty much the same flavor or different market?
[00:18:05] Pat Miller: I think I expected them to be different that, oh, radio in Milwaukee will be special. And when you get to a bigger market, the pie might be sliced finer. You may have a hot ac. And a top 40 and a rhythmic top 40, and you might have a Spanish language top 40. So now, now you've got four or five stations playing somewhat similar music, whereas in a smaller market, you may not have that.
[00:18:29] For example, in Lincoln, some of their market signals were shared with Omaha, so it wasn't a full spectrum in Lincoln because Omaha had some of the market signals blocked out. Whereas in Milwaukee, because it's bigger, there are many more competitors. So. scenario was a little bit different, and each market has their nuances, but I didn't go from Midwest to San Diego or Milwaukee to New York City.
[00:18:57] It wasn't this kind of culture shock as [00:19:00] far as the people were concerned. Thinking back on it. were names like nationalities, like there are more German and Polish names in Milwaukee. Whereas there are, you know, so there are different names. You gotta learn to pronounce different city names in different parts of the country as well.
[00:19:17] But at the end of the day, it is, uh, know, create interesting content. Know who you're talking to, customize it as best you can. Make it as interesting as you can and you know, let the chips fall where they may.
[00:19:31] Matt Stone: Fair. Fair. Alright. So thank you for that little diversion. I just, I was just very, very curious and that that kind of, um, it's kind of going to a presumption that had it, it would be a bigger difference if you were moving from the Midwest to, you know, I don't know. I was gonna say Alaska, but let's say you went to Hawaii.
[00:19:49] You know, I've lived in Hawaii twice.
[00:19:51] That's a very different market
[00:19:53] Pat Miller: Yeah, I bet.
[00:19:54] Matt Stone: because you have history, you have native cultures there, that there's a speci. I mean, [00:20:00] everywhere in the US there's, there's indigenous people. That's some sort, but there's unique dynamics, cultural dynamics, history there and, and all the great broadcasters there are sensitive to those things, and it takes a while to learn them.
[00:20:14] You can. Uh, but it, it would just be challenging in the beginning, I think. Um, alright, so now take us on this journey. Like, you're, you're, you're kind of, how do you move into doing SBOC now and, and your shows and, and serving small businesses even more directly?
[00:20:32] Pat Miller: It was 2017 and I was starting to get burned out. I was doing the same thing every day. I was in my mid forties. The market consolidation was accelerating and the stations that I was working for, they were up for sale. And my core responsibility, which was promotions manager. Is something that could be done by a junior employee.
[00:20:55] Make sure the street team shows up. Make sure the balloons are inflated. Make sure that the cardboard [00:21:00] table is popped up. Like of it wasn't that advanced. It could be done by a, a, a less senior employee, but it was the spot on the org chart where I sat while I created all this other value. So I was a little bit of a misfit, but I was doing some bigger stuff in a smaller position. So I knew, or at least I suspected. If these stations get sold, the new owner will walk in and say, who's that bald guy over there? We can fire him for someone that can make half of what he's making. Get out. when you're in broadcasting and you get fired, you either go do something else or you have to move, most likely. my wife now, she had started a photography studio. She became Supermom that turned into small business owners. She wanted to become a photographer and she launched her studio and it was, I don't know, five or six, no, not even that many, four or five years in running her photography studio. But she was established enough that us having to move [00:22:00] towns would've been a disaster 'cause she had started this studio. So this looming sale was happening. Abby had already gone out to be a small business owner. This is where it sunk. She took me to a local networking event, and I had never gone out and talked to other small business owners with the idea in the back of my head of I help these people? And when I showed up and started talking with them, I got really excited because the conversations were exactly like I was having when I went out with the salesperson, but I wasn't shackled to the salesperson anymore.
[00:22:35] I could just start consulting them and helping them in real time. I realized there might be a market there. That's when I went back to the radio station and I resigned. Now, if you're watching this and you have a job and you're thinking about leaving the industry and going to start your own business, do not do it this way because I didn't save up six months of operating revenue.
[00:22:54] I didn't have four or five clients signed before I jumped. I just jumped and I [00:23:00] jumped thinking all of the big buildings downtown will eventually need a marketing director. Should I fail? So I'll go out and do this. Because life is too short to live somebody else's dream. That's where the TEDx talk came from, and I went out and I started doing it, and it took me a month and a half to get my first gig, and it was terrible.
[00:23:21] And then it took me another month or two to get my first retainer client, from there it just kept on serving clients and we've grown it and grown it from there.
[00:23:31] Matt Stone: A lot of people when they're in the phase of standing up something new, and myself included over several different businesses, there's this period of time where you're trying to figure out your identity and how to talk about yourself and your business, and it comes off. It just, I don't think there's really a way to avoid this to some degree.
[00:23:51] I mean, you can work on it, whatever, but there's sort of a. Standup comedy, going to the small clubs, trying it out, you know, before you hit the, before you get [00:24:00] the Netflix special, you gotta work the club in in Sioux City. I mean, you know what I'm saying? And there's like three people in the audience. And so how did you feel having spent all that time where you got comfortable with your identity in that broadcast and radio world?
[00:24:18] Now you're out on your own. What, what was that like and what were some of the, maybe the not so nice parts of it internally that you had to overcome?
[00:24:27] Pat Miller: There were two things. One was very broadcast specific. I came up at a time in the broadcasting industry where you had to have a radio name you had to have a radio name because people would look you up in the phone book and try and find you. And did have some crazies over my years, but I had a radio name. The radio name came from being in college. So short story. My real name is James Patrick Miller, and when I went to broadcast for the first day, I signed my legal document J period, Pat Miller, [00:25:00] they all started calling me j Pat. So my entire radio career, I was on the air as J Pat. I didn't even use Miller. It was just J Pat, sometimes Miller, but primarily J Pat is how I went on the air. 20 years of that professional identity. When I left, I thought, this is crazy. Only the industry calls me this. All of my family call me Pat. This is a chance to step back into who I actually am, there's one other aside that sports fans will relate to. I am the biggest Chicago Bears and Cubs fan on the planet. I was the director of marketing for the flagship station of the Green Bay Packers. Now if you know anything about sports, you know how awful that is. If you know nothing about sports, it was my personal health. The people were great, but I hate the team with a passion of a thousand sons. I had to show up every day hoping they would [00:26:00] win, and it was awful. So I had to call myself a name that I wasn't. I had to cheer for a team, a team that I hated, and in my last job I had to build and manage a country radio station. And there's some country songs that I like, and every once in a while I'm in a country mood, but I'm not a country guy. So in very, in several ways, I had to live someone I wasn't. When I walked away, I could let all of that go and it was freeing is the best way I could say it. It was terrifying, but it was so freeing. To do that. So just that transition to go from being someone else to being myself again. When you step back into who you are after not being yourself professionally for two decades, it feels uncomfortable, but I'm really glad that I was able to do it.
[00:26:55] Matt Stone: What did you call your business in the beginning?
[00:26:57] Pat Miller: The parent company is still small step [00:27:00] solutions. So I have a parent company and I knew I wanted to serve small business owners and I'm fascinated by the moon landing. So the icon is the boot of the footprint on the moon, and small step is the quote from the moon. So small step solutions is the parent company.
[00:27:16] So that's what I went out as.
[00:27:17] Matt Stone: That's fantastic. And how long did it take you to, I mean, not really how long, but like do you remember when you, when you started getting comfortable with the new, I would say new identity, but it was really being more yourself, like how long did that take for you to step into what I call in my business, more of an iconic frame?
[00:27:39] Because.
[00:27:40] Pat Miller: Mm-hmm. Really hard at first. I've done four different [00:28:00] attempts at a show since I left and the first three didn't work, I'm still trying to become who I actually am on air, because when you're in broadcasting, the greats can do it organically I always thought I had to be someone that I wasn't, and that's not the case.
[00:28:20] You have to be yourself, the best version of yourself and be live without a net who you are on and off the air. 'cause to your point, listeners can tell if you're faking it. So the more authentic you can be, the better. I still struggle with that every day. Every day I'm trying to get closer and closer to how I would have this conversation and react if we were off the air because of my training and my history.
[00:28:45] Matt Stone: Yeah.
[00:28:47] In a sense, paradoxically, your training is a hindrance at some level.
[00:28:53] Pat Miller: Yes, absolutely.
[00:28:56] Matt Stone: So a strength becomes a weakness.
[00:28:58] Pat Miller: Mm-hmm.[00:29:00]
[00:29:00] Matt Stone: That's, that's. That's some deep wisdom there. Pat. I'll see you later. That's nice. We're gonna just cut it there. The audience doesn't want to hear anymore. They got what they needed.
[00:29:09] no. that's, that's really powerful and I think for a lot of people who are, especially people over a certain age who came up with a different, I mean, I remember the promise was if you went to college and got a degree.
[00:29:24] You were, you were okay. You know, you learned what you needed to learn. You go cut your teeth in something. I think the world now is showing us that like you were very, I mean, obviously you're very observant and you're going, Hey man, this, the winds are changing. I need to be, and getting that degree that MBA
[00:29:40] was only the first step you took to step into a new thing.
[00:29:43] What I'm hearing from you is there's a whole bunch of other learning that you're having to do to become comfortable in even becoming, going deeper.
[00:29:52] To unleash the real you out into the world, which by the way, you're a tremendously fantastic guy. I can see why people respond to you. Well, but, [00:30:00] but I, that makes a lot of sense.
[00:30:01] What's the internal dialogue like for you? What's the struggle sound like? If I were to have a little thought bubble? If you're, if you're comfortable sharing that.
[00:30:09] Pat Miller: Yeah, I mean, the thought bubble is, that's how I would say it, but that doesn't sound professional. That's what I really think. I'm just gonna say it. Can I be honest with you? Can I be real with you? Can I turn off the internal sensor or the program director that will live on my shoulder for the rest of my life telling me how I'm supposed to say something? And you mentioned earlier, oh, I can tell you sound like a broadcaster. You do this, that, and that, and it's a blessing. I, I'm glad that I can speak in a way that sounds like I've been on the air before, but at the same time. It can be a hindrance because it's tough to sound like a normal person when you don't sound like a normal person.
[00:30:50] Matt Stone: Right.
[00:30:51] That's right.
[00:30:52] Pat Miller: this is hard and it's great and I'd, I'm so grateful for my training and I loved my career. I love the fact that we get to do shows [00:31:00] and I love all of it, am always trying to, I feel like I'm chiseling my way out. Trying to chisel my way out to actually who I am because the connection is so strong when someone feels like they're really having a conversation with you. So it's an ongoing battle and I don't wanna like overstate it, but it is something I deal with all the
[00:31:19] Matt Stone: I, that's what this show's all about. This show is I, I really want people to feel like they've got a window into the real, that's why I asked about the thought bubble. 'cause everyone has these self-defeating thoughts. Uh, God, I, I met someone for coffee yesterday that I had met on LinkedIn. We met in Mint, Midtown, Manhattan, and I had this whole mental, like second guessing about where I should sit at the table be because there was a third person coming
[00:31:48] and we are both men, and the third person is a woman.
[00:31:51] So there was that dynamic and I wanted to be, make her feel not excluded. The natural place to sit would've been directly across from him. 'cause at that [00:32:00] time it was only two. And I said, do you really wanna know what's going on in my head? 'cause he asked me, he goes, what are you thinking about? And I was like, I haven't had enough coffee yet.
[00:32:06] And my brain is literally like fighting with itself about what to do.
[00:32:10] Um, but I think those internal, the reason why I went ahead and burdened him with my inner thoughts, 'cause he asked, is because I love that when we get to share those things. First of all, it's so validating that you can be really good at what you do and still have these crazy thoughts in your head, and just allowing them to be there is how you get over 'em half the time.
[00:32:31] You know, like accepting that is the, is the path to moving into the next phase of who you are on screen and on stage.
[00:32:40] Pat Miller: And accepting is a good way to put it because when you build a small business, you're good at one thing and you're terrible at everything else. You're an expert on something, but you've never sold before. You've never built a website before, you've never done whatever the other thing is before, where the doubting thoughts come in.
[00:32:58] And the imposter syndrome comes [00:33:00] in the idea that, who am I to host a show? Who am I to ask for $5,000? Who am I to, blah, blah, blah, whatever it might be. And that's also where you just have to accept and trust. Who am I? I'm the guy that has the courage to do it, and they're not, and you just have to go do it. that daily conversation that I have because of my broadcast history, and I'm doing a show every day, other member of the SBOC has because they have to fight their personal biases and doubts in order to get what they need to make their small business dream work. So this is just my burden of what I have to carry.
[00:33:38] Everybody has a burden on what they're trying to get done. up as imposter syndrome, and to your point, we have to accept it and do it anyway in order to get to where we want to go.
[00:33:49] Matt Stone: A hundred percent. Yeah. Now listen, a lot of people say, I wanna build a community. I want to build a community. You've actually built a community. So I think you have a little bit of wisdom about what [00:34:00] community actually is, especially in a business context. Tell us. How you came to really start building the community?
[00:34:08] What did, what were the first steps that you took to build a community, and then what have been the keys along the way to making it an actual community and not community and name only?
[00:34:19] Pat Miller: How it happened, complete accident, and this is because of my broadcast training and then we'll move on, but the broadcast training, I came up at an era where you were told you are a community servant. is your job. You are a public servant. going through Bloomington, Des Moines, Lincoln and Omaha that took shape most frequently as the clouds are getting dark, we are in a tornado warning.
[00:34:43] And as a broadcaster, you don't run to the basement, you run to the studio. you're supposed to watch the weather, tell people what to do and get in the basement. And I was on the air in the nineties pre-internet, like this was really valuable stuff. So that was part of my training. I leave the radio industry in [00:35:00] 2018.
[00:35:00] It's March 18th, 2020. I come home, my wife is sitting on the couch. She says, our kids' school just shut down. There's this thing called coronavirus and everyone freaked out, and I don't know what it was, maybe it was a broadcast training, but the next day I went live on LinkedIn and hosted a show that I called Small Business Rally Point. And the whole point of view was, hey, personal network. No one knows what's going on, but if we stick together and we share what we see, we'll get through this. So what made the community start was this concern for this experience we were all going through, was our businesses are closing. What's a PPP?
[00:35:41] What's an EIDL? What is there a vaccine? What do we have to do? Because no one knew. that show every day for 90 days. It came to be the end of May, 2020, and one of my friends said, you've started a community here. That's how it started. June [00:36:00] 1st, 2020, we went on Mighty Networks. We opened up the community.
[00:36:03] So we're coming up on six years, uh, as of June 1st, 2026.
[00:36:07] Matt Stone: how many people have come through the community now, how have you got the stats on that?
[00:36:13] Pat Miller: Hundreds have come through. Churn is a real thing when you charge people. So you end up getting people that join and people that leave. But we've had hundreds and hundreds of people become members, and there are two types of churn, which is sad. One is people don't like the community as much as they want, uh, as they did, or, uh, they're just not participating as much as they used to, so they leave. But then the other side of it is people start a business and they can't make it, and they go outta business. Because 50% of small business owners won't make it to year five, and that's SBA stat that is the Darth Vader that we're all fighting is survival. So we've had hundreds of people join and we're currently at 172 members, I think as of this morning, members all around the country, [00:37:00] primarily in my personal network here in Wisconsin. But yeah, that's how it started. Now when you were talking about community tips, what does it take to start it? The biggest thing that I've learned is that there's a difference between audience and community. Audience is when all the chairs are facing you, welcome everyone. I'm gonna teach you something.
[00:37:20] You are my audience. community is a group of people going through the same thing and the chairs are facing one another where you can roll the ball out and the community members will talk with one another. quickest reality check to know if you're building an audience or a community.
[00:37:37] Matt Stone: Are you cultivating? Are you facilitating? Are you enabling, feeding this garden? I, I always think of the garden analogy for some reason. Just because, just like in a garden, if you allow certain things to, uh, take over, they can kill the rest of the plants. Uh, so. So, um, you know, I like to talk about things in [00:38:00] stages.
[00:38:00] It take going in stages and being on different types of stage. So what I'm translating that in, it's like there's the stage of, of speaking to an audience. Then there's the stage of nurturing the community. So what have you learned about what it takes to build a real robust, high service community? What are the keys for someone out there who's like, I know I need to build a community for my business, but I just don't even know.
[00:38:25] If I can do it, and if anyone, they have so many other options. Everyone's so busy, why would they want to join my community? What have you learned that has answered that question for you?
[00:38:35] Pat Miller: You have to be true to what you say it's gonna be. This is what we do and this is what we do not do. And some of the things that we define for mine is we only let the owners in. We don't let in someone's salespeople, we don't let in their director of operations. You have to be an owner of a business. That is the first filter of getting in, and then you have to have standards. And one of our standards is we don't allow pitching. Every other business group will eventually get [00:39:00] infected by people pitching each other's stuff. Now, every Wednesday we allow a self-promotion post where you can promote yourself in this one little area, but the rest of the time don't show up in the main feed and be trying to sell people things.
[00:39:12] And what I tell people when they join the group is we don't allow pitching. it happens, we won't kick you out right away. First we'll publicly ridicule you, then we'll kick you out. And that seemed to have been enough of a threat that people don't do it. have like, what do we stand for? What do we do?
[00:39:27] And then you just have to be obsessed with delivering a. Value to them. Know who you're serving and then do what they actually need. Listen to what they want from you. It's a constant Tweaking. I've changed so many things over the years. Tried so many things that uh, some things work and some things don't.
[00:39:49] And the community members, to their credit. really understood what we're up to, and they also help support the mission and the culture that we're trying to build because the [00:40:00] biggest advocates are the community members themselves.
[00:40:02] Matt Stone: Well, there you go. And what you're saying in different words, it's really hitting me, is one of the biggest differences it seems to me between. A platform where you're broadcasting to being on a live stage with a, an audience. One of the biggest differences is just the nature of the feedback loop. So if you're broadcasting on YouTube, your feedback loop, if you have a live show, you can have comments that come in.
[00:40:30] So there's a little of that. Ultimately, the granddaddy or a Grand Mama of the mall is. Are the numbers are just how many people are viewing during and after. So, uh, and in person you can hopefully see the whites of people's eyes and they're giving you some body language and some energy, and then the community takes a whole other level of intention about how you're going to capture that feedback and what you're gonna do with it.
[00:40:59] So what [00:41:00] feedback mechanisms. I know it's a long wind up Pat, I apologize. What kind of feedback mechanisms have you found really work well so that you can fertilize the ground the right way? I.
[00:41:13] Pat Miller: I always look for engagement, and engagement is the thing that every community host wants to have. How do I get more engagement? And there are some laws. Mighty Networks is the platform I'm on, and they've released statistics about. what engagement can look like. And they've surveyed thousands and thousands of communities, and one of the ways that they express it is 99 and one 90% of the community will be observers.
[00:41:39] 9% will log in every week. 1% will log in daily and do the majority of the posting. there's little that I can do to change that as much as I would love to change it. There's little that you can do to change it. So as a community host, you need to understand what a good job looks like, because if you're over prompting and you're begging people [00:42:00] to participate, thinking that you're gonna be the one community on the planet that violates that universal law, you're gonna go crazy and you're gonna be depressed. The other thing is, because I'm a broadcast guy, I have always judged by quantity, and I have to not think like that. that join a community, they're there for relationships. And I need to remember every single one of them is taking the biggest risk of their life, and they're trusting me and the other community members with it. when they log in and they ask a question about how do I do the thing, it might be the difference between them paying the mortgage or not, I need to, and we need to honor them give them the best stuff that we can. When you're. On a top 40 radio station, you know a number is a number. But when you're dealing with someone's business, you wanna give them the best feedback you can, the most connections you can.
[00:42:57] And I wanna build this place [00:43:00] where people feel like they're to be vulnerable and ask the real questions that they need so they can move their business forward.
[00:43:07] Matt Stone: So, I mean, look, uh, what kinds of things have you seen with your, the community members where you've seen them be able to use the community and then transform their business? I'm sure you've got some stories, but are there any that stick out that really that. Really let you know that Yeah, we've, we've made something special here.
[00:43:25] Pat Miller: We've renamed businesses, we've repositioned businesses, we've helped people fire and hire. Uh, one of the conversations that we have all the time is about raising rates because it's the scariest thing that many of the folks. The community have to do well. I can't charge more. Well, why not? Well, what if I lose clients?
[00:43:45] Well, what if you do? Do you think you could replace them? Well, I do have a full funnel. Cool. Then raise your rates. And when someone raises their rates, buy an extra a thousand dollars a month, and they get an extra a thousand dollars a month that has no additional [00:44:00] expense on it, their life changes. Those are the kinds of conversations we have all the time.
[00:44:06] The other thing that it's, and it shows up in different forms, but it's almost always the same conversation that happens like a lighthouse. The lighthouse comes back around and someone's like, I don't know how to solve this problem because I don't have a second opinion. I have a blind spot that I can't see, and that's really what the community provides for all of our members. The ones that feel comfortable enough to ask for feedback and request help ones. That have the business owner show up and say, oh, hey, um, those headphones that you're wearing, if you plug 'em in the other port, it won't make that noise anymore. And you won't know until you ask because everyone else, or someone, someone else in the community has solved that problem before. But that blind spot and that feedback is so important, and you have to create a community and an environment where people are comfortable to ask those questions.
[00:44:59] Matt Stone: I'm just laughing [00:45:00] because of the amount of time I spent trying to get the headphone jack to work. Uh, when I, when I was trying to plug it into my iPhone and I realized I needed an adapter because it didn't, it had you needed three rings, not two rings, and. I went down this whole rabbit hole, and you're right.
[00:45:17] It's like, and I figured it out and now I have an entire equipment list. People ask me, well, how did you, and I said, oh my God, it's been, I've spent a decade learning this stuff and way too much money. Um, but there's always someone else who's been there before
[00:45:31] and and to get their help without any kind of obligation.
[00:45:35] Just, just a, an environment where I'm here to serve and be served.
[00:45:39] That, that's what I'm hearing that you've created in SBOC, just for the, for the people. If someone's listening or watching this and they're like, is this for me? What's your kind of, what is your pitch for who? Who should look at SBOC in terms of joining?
[00:45:54] Potentially,
[00:45:56] Pat Miller: Building a small business is lonely and
[00:45:58] Matt Stone: I.
[00:45:59] Pat Miller: And [00:46:00] you shouldn't have to figure it all out by yourself. That's where I start, because anyone that's trying to make their business dream come true, knows that there's stuff they know how to do and a whole bunch more that we don't know how to do. And inside the group, we're solving problems and we're capturing opportunities in an a pitch free environment where only other owners can play ball. Because when you're building your business, no one understands, your spouse doesn't understand, your friends don't understand. Nobody understands if they're not building a business. This is a room where others who are facing the same challenges you are have all kind of agreed. We can ask each other questions and get further down the road. Inside the group, we have coworking meetings. We have brainstorming meetings and problem solving meetings called idea slams. We have a legal hotline, a tech hotline, a bookkeeping and accounting hotline. We have our own GPT that's baked into the subscription cost, and all of this is $9 a month. So it's a chance to communicate with others who are on the same journey as you are. And it's a unique [00:47:00] place that I wanna see everybody win when they have the courage to start their own
[00:47:04] Matt Stone: Oh my God, that sounds like an amazing opportunity. Now, very quickly as we wrap up, you've also got a daily, it's like four days a week I think, on YouTube. Tell us about that show, and I mean, I've seen a few, I've seen segments of at least three or four different episodes over the last few weeks. You do a great job with that show, but what's that about and where is it headed?
[00:47:25] Like what's your vision for the show?
[00:47:27] Pat Miller: The vision is it's the daily meeting for business owners. you are building a business, this is a place where you can go Monday through Thursday at 11:00 AM central and be around. Others that are trying to business on that particular day, and I've got a live interactive map. Where when you log in, you can put your business on the map so you can see who else is watching the show.
[00:47:50] That's one way that you're included. The chat is fully integrated where people are asking questions and we're having a a two-way conversation. To your point earlier and on the [00:48:00] show, I'm doing daily news, I'm doing live idea slams. I do an AI story of the day so we can figure out what's going on with AI and what we need to pay attention to and what we don't need to pay attention to. And then we also, I dunno if this is permissible, permissible, but. We kind of have a little bit of fun too, so I
[00:48:18] Matt Stone: wait. I don't know about, I'm gonna report that. Hang on.
[00:48:21] Yeah, the minders are here to make sure you check that out. They're having fun over there on that channel. I want, I wanna have all the fun over on my side. So, no, I mean, fun was actually my intention for 2026.
[00:48:33] Pat Miller: That's great. That's a great
[00:48:35] Matt Stone: Yeah.
[00:48:35] Pat Miller: that. That's the quote that's flying around is you can't compete with someone that's having more fun than you. It's so true.
[00:48:40] Matt Stone: Yeah. I mean, and I, and I think the pandemic and the, uh. The polarization, the, the, the, the social strain that we're all living in and all of that. It's, it's, it's actually having a, it is a burden, uh, emotionally. And um, one solution for it I think [00:49:00] is to cultivate fun with each other and remember what it's like to play, you know, 'cause there's a lot of hard things we're dealing with and let's play.
[00:49:08] And if you're playing with someone who maybe disagrees with you on something, but you're still having a good time, it's kind of hard to hate 'em too.
[00:49:14] Pat Miller: Well, and this ties everything that we've talked about together. Why did I leave to start my business? I did it because I didn't wanna have any regret. And why do we lead the small business owners community? And why am I so passionate about people's businesses, our dreams, not jobs? Because we only get to go through this whole thing one time, and if you have a dream and you don't go act on it, and you spend your entire life making someone else's dream come true, then what the hell are we doing here?
[00:49:40] Matt Stone: What are, that's it. What are we doing here? What's, and I have another show, uh, I'm streaming live on LinkedIn now with a partner and we call it What's the point?
[00:49:48] Pat Miller: Perfect. Perfect.
[00:49:51] Matt Stone: I, I'm gonna wrap up this part of it by saying, uh, I'm gonna steal your words and let people know that you don't have to grow it alone, right Pat?
[00:49:59] It's [00:50:00] a great, don't grow it alone. Go with Pat. SBOC. Last question for you today, my friend. What are you most curious about right now?
[00:50:09] Pat Miller: I am curious about how our businesses are gonna look in six months. With ai, we have a once in a generation opportunity to expand our influence, productivity, and product line. The smart kids are diving in without abandon right now. They are learning everything they can. They're automating as much as they can.
[00:50:29] They're realizing that they have unlimited leverage. The only thing that's holding them back is the dedication to roll up their sleeves and do the work. Our businesses will look different in six months, and it will either be way further and better than it is now. Or you could be in real trouble. I can't get enough of it.
[00:50:47] I'm leading AI installation groups. It's the number one topic and the only topic that matters for small business owners in 2026.
[00:50:55] Matt Stone: I could not agree more. Pat if people wanna follow you.
[00:50:58] We've mentioned a YouTube [00:51:00] channel. We've mentioned SBOC. Tell the people where to go to connect with you or to at least follow you.
[00:51:06] Pat Miller: Best place to connect is on LinkedIn, so I'd love to connect with you on LinkedIn. Small business community.com is the URL, and as you mentioned on YouTube it's @businessingshow.
[00:51:17] Matt Stone: Fantastic. We'll put all that information in the show notes as well.
[00:51:20] Pat, it is a joy and, uh, an honor to get to spend this time with you. I hope that we have many more conversations on and off air. Um, but uh, thank you for the gift of your wisdom and your time and your beautiful voice.
[00:51:33] Pat Miller: Oh, well thank you very much. That was a pleasure. Thanks for having me.
[00:51:36] Matt Stone: Thanks, Pat.
[00:51:37]