Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
British Columbia is in the grips of a housing affordability crisis decades in the making. The Province has an ambitious plan to tackle the crisis through the largest investment in housing affordability in B.C.’s history. Tasked with building tens of thousands of homes in hundreds of communities is BC Housing, the agency responsible for developing, managing, and administering a wide range of subsidized housing and homelessness services across the province. BC Housing doesn’t do this alone, they work with hundreds of partners. In this podcast, you’ll hear from those tackling the crisis head on.
A home. It's something we all need.
But for too many, having a safe place
to make a home is out of reach.
The challenges can seem insurmountable.
And yet, each and every day,
people are coming together
to provide safe, quality and affordable
housing for those in need.
Welcome to Let's Talk Housing.
I'm your host, Mita Naidu.
Join us as we listen to
and learn from people in British Columbia
who are creating strong,
inclusive communities
where everyone can thrive.
Hello there.
My name is Jennifer Breakspear,
and I'm an Associate Vice President
with BC Housing, and I identify as a out
queer woman with pronouns
she/her.
Today on Let's Talk
Housing, we're joined by a Ryan DeBruyn,
a non-binary individual who is a resident
support worker at McLaren
Housing Society, as well as to Sekani Dakelth
from the Dakelth Nation,
and a facilitator and consultant
with First Nations Health Authority
and the City of Vancouver.
We're also joined by BC Housing's own
very own technology
programs coordinator, Samantha Dray.
They will
all be sharing their personal stories
about how the 2SLGBTQIA+
community is impacted by housing access.
As we begin, I want to respectfully
acknowledge that we're recording
from the territories of the Musqueam,
Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh nations.
And for transparency,
this episode is being recorded in April
2025 and reflects the issues
and priorities of that time.
Welcome to Let's Talk Housing.
Welcome Sekani, Samantha and Ryan.
I'm glad to have you with us on
Let's Talk Housing.
How about we start with you, Ryan?
Would you like to share your pronouns?
Introduce yourself to the audience as well
as tell us a bit about McLaren housing
and what role you and the organization
have in the housing sector?
Of course, so my name is Ryan DeBruyn.
I use they/them pronouns.
I'm a resident support worker
at McLaren Housing Society of BC.
McLaren Housing
Society is an organization that offers
supportive and subsidized
housing for individuals living with HIV.
We currently right now have 110 units
that are supportive housing units,
and we have 31 units that are subsidized.
We also offer a portable subsidy program,
which essentially offsets market rent.
My role is at the supportive
housing apartment building
as its residents support worker.
Essentially, I'm working on wellness
goals,
working with folks
to keep their housing secure,
maintain their housing.
I also see it
as kind of like a bridge of sorts.
So people will come and meet with me
and then through that connection,
I'm able to connect them
to outside services and supports.
And I spend a lot of my time
creating the programming
that we have at our supportive
housing location.
Thanks, Ryan. All very important work.
I'll turn to Samantha now and ask
if you'd like to share your pronouns,
a bit about yourself and tell us
what you do here at BC Housing.
Yeah, definitely. Morning, everybody.
I identify with she/her pronouns,
a proudly out lesbian, and BC Housing....
Yeah, I'll try and keep it short
and sweet, but I help housing providers
that are partnered with BC Housing by any
level of subsidy learn about technology.
There is a gap in digital
literacy and
easy tips and tricks.
When your main goals are to find people
housing,
using outlook to the best of your ability
is not your number one priority.
So we kind of help
by providing resources,
training templates, with the help of the
VP of IMT, Mike Klein.
We do get hit in nonprofit with
phishing scams, malware, things like that.
So, yeah, just sort of an awareness
and resource for those nonprofit housing
providers.
Thanks Samantha,
happy to have you with us.
And Sekani,
would you like to share your pronouns?
Tell us a bit about your background,
as well as the work you've been involved
in regarding housing for the Two-Spirit
trans community?
Hi everyone.
My name is Sekani Dekelth
and from the Dekelth nation,
like they mentioned.
I go by she/her pronouns.
I am also a very proud trans woman.
I kind of more lean toward
the two-spirited
now I feel like that's more where I identify
better with.
So currently, right now, I'm working
with specifically around 2S housing.
My contract just ended,
and I was working with a round table
that paired service providers
with community members
of the trans and gender diverse
and two-spirited community.
And we talked about
their living experience around housing
and about service gaps and how service
providers and housing providers
can kind of meet those service gaps.
And then always consulting
with my own nation, I'm always showing up
at our board member meetings
and pressing for housing.
Like for everyone.
I feel like a lot of people need housing.
I have a big family,
so there's like ten of us,
there's ten of us
that live in this current house,
and I'm the only trans,
two-spirited person in the house.
But I mean, like everybody, we all need
housing in this, in this place.
I feel like that's kind of a...
a lot of people need housing.
I work with harm reduction
and I facilitate workshops.
I facilitate a space
where facilitators get to talk about
how they're
talking about harm reduction
in their communities and where
we can kind of support each other at.
But the roundtable is like
where we talk about housing and it's
focused on trans and gender diverse,
and two-spirited
with a huge representation
from the two-spirited community.
And with that, I would imagine a number of
Indigenous folks from different nations.
Is that correct?
Yeah, actually
the Indigenous people that are on
the roundtable, both on the service
provider end and on the
community consultants
level are all from different nations.
Okay.
I would love to hear more about that
as we move
through, Sekani, particularly around
supporting two-spirited folks.
That's great.
Samantha, if I could turn to you now,
can you share a bit about your journey
of searching for safe and secure housing?
Yeah, definitely.
So for most of my time
here, living in the Lower Mainland and Vancovuer...
I came from Calgary.
I was living with a partner.
So finding housing,
you know, safe and secure...
It was not easy.
I've seen other friends have those issues.
Finding housing with a partner
and having a conventionally looking
partnership was easy to find
the housing itself.
But maybe afterwards, which I will go
into later was a little more difficult.
Thanks for that.
I'd like to go to you next Sekani,
if you could,
because I just want to pick up.
You were talking about so many people
living in your house, and
you're all in need of housing.
So can you tell us about that journey
for safe and secure housing?
Where do I start?
I have a lot of experience
around housing,
obviously, I feel like everybody kind of does.
My journey, searching for safe
and secure housing started,
I guess, a long time ago.
I became homeless very young at 17
air quote
I use this term loosely,
but I made a choice to leave home.
And when I left home,
I was taken care of by
a friend and couldn't
stay there anymore.
I ended up homeless.
Didn't really know what to do.
You know, at 18, I found that,
I couldn't... they call it
a gray area to be in,
and I couldn't really receive services
from either ministry from them,
CFD or from social assistance
because I was 18.
I couldn't rent the place
because of my age.
I did find some really amazing services
in the Granville area.
There were youth shelters
that I was able to access,
which is amazing.
I lived in an SRO for a while,
and from there, my first ever place that
I felt like really understood me
was living in supportive housing.
And I lived in a supportive housing
that was very low barrier,
that had harm reduction supplies
at the front door, and it had support
staff at the front door.
And I actually felt like safe there.
And I felt like they understood me.
And I felt I can be as difficult
and as wild as I want there.
And I felt like they took care of me.
And it was a nice place to be at.
And from that place, moved into a building.
It was a brand new building.
It was called the Lux.
But it used to be an old theatre, I take it.
I think it used to be an old theater
on Hastings, but it was an amazing space.
Like, again, felt safe, huge building,
had tons of support, staff had groups.
I got a brand new little
bachelorette suite,
and it was just an amazing place
and then moved in with family.
Family, I feel like to me and to our nation,
like traditionally
we would be living with our whole clan
and we would be living with extended
family up to my great grandparents.
And we lived that way
because we knew that as people age,
we need to take care of them
and they need a little bit more support.
And right now, my parents are
getting to that stage
they're in their 70s,
and we definitely step up
and we do whatever we can
and they do whatever they can too.
They help rear the kids.
So it's safe. It's secure.
We feel good here.
We each have our own rooms.
We have a big back and front yard.
It's just like
the part that feels like that
a bit precarious is probably the cost.
And then the
the longevity of us staying here.
And now I'd like to turn to you, Ryan,
and ask if you would like to share
some of your journey around
safe and secure housing.
Yeah. So I think
safety and security
are often compromised by affordability.
And right now the competition
for affordability is very high.
And so you also need to have these soft
skills of like networking
and communication skills to really be able
to seal in agreements with landlords,
which was not necessarily something that
people had to navigate five years ago.
So it's kind of this new requirement.
There's high competition.
And through that you're kind of dependent
on what the landlord believes to be true.
I think right now, being gender diverse
is we're in a sticky situation
politically.
A lot of our lives and
ways of being are being
politicized.
And so you're kind of left to
the whims of where somebody's biases
are. If you're not excelling
in all other kind of aspects of
what would be called a desirable tenant.
Yeah, I picked up on one thing
you said right at the beginning there,
Ryan, when you said safety and security
are often compromised by affordability.
I think you summed it up.
You kind of got the podcast
right there, right?
For any of us to to feel safe and secure
in our housing,
it also has to be housing
we can afford.
And that is such a challenge.
Maybe I'll stay with you for now, Ryan.
And just ask...
you've alluded to it, but
what sort of unique issues have you faced
when navigating the housing system?
Yeah.
I mean, for me,
I've been pretty fortunate.
I think the thing
that's the most struggle is just you...
within the budget that you have,
the compromises
that you make don't necessarily bring
like security of tenure.
So you find yourself in situations
that maybe aren't a full lease
or like kind of these backdoor deals or
you think you're renting,
but you're subletting.
And so all of a sudden
you don't necessarily have the security
of a lease agreement, which can make
your housing very precarious.
And get yourself into situations.
Now, the way to combat
that is to kind of know
your rights as a renter and as a tenant.
And I'm very thankful
that I work in housing.
And so part of my job
has given me a lot of opportunity
that benefits my own renting
and like navigating the housing system.
Sekani, if I can turn back to you,
you have talked about some of the issues
and one
you referenced being homeless at 17,
which I wish I could say
is a more rare issue for for queer
and trans and two-spirited individuals.
But unfortunately, it's far too common
when young, queer, trans, two-spirited
folks come out that they end up either
choosing to leave their home,
their family of origin,
or are forced out and
I don't know if you want to speak
to that specifically,
but I just wanted to make sure
that we reference how unfortunately common
that is for young people in our community.
I guess, to put it like in a way that is...
even though it was my first time
homeless, it was my first time
actually finding my community
and actually feeling like I fit in,
which like, is both amazing...
it was amazing for me socially.
But it was also really tragic because
a lot of the people that I did meet
were all young.
Some people were as young as 14.
Most of the people that I met,
like on the Granville
Strip area,
I can speak about at that time, 1999,
I don't know if it's changed much.
I don't talk to a lot of people,
and I don't work with a lot of people
that are currently on the street there.
But everybody was queer or on that
that spectrum of exploring their identity.
And all of my friends were Indigenous.
We didn't have...
there weren't very many options,
in 1999, 2000 for a trans,
Indigenous, homeless teenager,
there weren't very many options,
that I could go to. Often
relying on leaning
more on my birth gender,
to access jobs
or to access housing.
But, yeah, definitely
having to make some compromises,
I guess and I again, use
that term loosely because you know what?
You have to compromise.
I always found that the minute
that I started being proud
and identifying as a trans woman and
being two-spirited and saying it proudly
and not being...
not holding that part of myself
back, that it cost me so much
that I am not willing to go back there,
and to have to compromise
freedom is not something
that people should have to choose.
Absolutely, absolutely.
I mean, when you said there
that, you know, you said it
as a compromising
but really denying who you are by leaning
back into the gender you were assigned
at birth to be able to access opportunity.
I mean, that's that's soul-stifling.
I'm so sorry for that.
Are you kidding me? I learned so many
amazing, amazing skills from my life.
My heart is always...
I've been working in
and around the Downtown Eastside
since I was 30 years old.
So I'm 43 now.
So 13 years working in the community that
I say it’s my home and I say it’s where
I grew up. Working
the community that raised me.
Thanks Sekani.
Samantha, if I can turn to you
and I think you
said we might come back to this.
If you could tell us a bit
about kind of treatment, your experience
of being in a lesbian couple
when you were dealing with,
I don't know, things
like maintenance and other issues in
the private market housing.
And then what advantages
did you notice in seeking housing
with a partner versus
seeking housing as a single woman?
Yeah.
Definitely.
So the first part of that,
I think is sort of, yeah....
During a tenancy
and during the exiting of a tenancy,
being two females and
again, the way I present...
but internally, like
I'm the one that unclogs
the sinks.
I replace parts on my own car.
I cycle a lot
and I try and, you know, like...
you know,
my father had two daughters
and I was taught everything in the garage,
you know, sort of thing.
But, you know,
the assumption is I don't know anything.
So for
maintenance during tenancies, if there's something going on.
It was sort of the landlords
that we were renting from which
now I'm thinking back are mostly all
male identifying and presenting.
But would sort of give different quotes
or sort of push aside
my extreme concerns or things like that.
And then, when leaving a tenancy
and trying to get that lovely security
deposit back,
trying to sort of strongarm,
oh, this is... you did this
and it's going to cost $500 to replace
and, you know, things like that.
And A) knowing my rights,
I'm just that person.
At some point line
for line with the residential tenancy,
just for my own...
You know, I think everyone, unfortunately,
should know that,
even landlords should read it,
to know what they can't,
push on to their tenants.
But, yeah, just knowing,
my own rights
which,
I mean, takes time and takes effort.
And it's a lot of reading.
It's a lot of... it's
not as accessible as maybe it should be.
For when you have those situations
where assumptions
are made that I don't know anything,
from housing.
I get that, like mechanics,
I get that attitude, too,
you know, I don't know anything and stuff
like that, that's more of the
the female presenting side of me.
But it's frustrating
and sometimes can ruin that relationship
with a landlord when you're supposed
to be getting another housing.
That depends on this opinion
of the previous landlord.
So, you know,
can kind of make a mess there.
But that's an experience,
that time and time again living
as two female partners.
I'd like to move on to talk about the
The Burrard and Davie community project
and I'm just going to throw
in a personal little connection to this
because I was the executive director
of Qmunity for a number of years.
And in fact, was involved
in having the first conversations
with the city of Vancouver,
which eventually a few executive directors
later and years
go by, has led to this exciting project.
So, it's a site in development
that will be operated with the queer mandate
and will be operated by McLaren
Housing Society.
It's a larger housing site
that will accommodate
multigenerational chosen families,
which I just think is awesome.
So, Ryan, you're with McLaren.
Can you tell us more about
what's meant there exactly about a queer mandate
and really why that's important?
I can, just to clarify, though,
McLaren Housing
won't be running the full building, but
we have partnered with Community Land
Trust,
who's going to be running that building.
We're going to be operating
and offering our services to the 31
allocated subsidized apartments
that will be there.
And so we have our own mandate
that is not as homogenous, right?
Like it is housing
folks who are living with HIV.
And so we will stick to our mandate
and house folks living with HIV.
That being said, there is overlap.
Awesome, awesome.
So, Ryan, I wonder if you can share
how you think having those
2SLGBTQ+ plus services right on site
will benefit
both the residents in the building and nearby community?
Yeah.
I'm so excited to see it.
I feel like it is going to
inject that
area with community and belonging
in a way that just has kind of
been missing for a little bit.
It's so important for queer people
to have access to queer tailored care.
The fact that Qmunity
is going to be there
and they're going to be building up
these programs that are tailored
and geared towards queer people
is just life changing, because a lot of us
have to navigate systems
that weren't necessarily built for us,
or they don't necessarily know
what is kind of like common behaviour
in queer community.
So to have that tailored care really
is the grounding stones
to build a community
back up in Davie Street.
Samantha, I'm going to shift gears here
and ask if you'd like to talk
about the beneficial role that you see
technology can play in the queer community
in relation
to housing and community building?
With all of us
being connected through the internet,
all these things,
taking advantage of social media
can be a definitely huge part.
Certain groups you can go to
to check if a neighbourhoods is safe.
If there is community
there, pick a neighbourhood in Vancouver,
Mount Pleasant “queer”
and search
and see if there's any private groups
on various social media platforms.
Neighbourhood app.
You know, there's the neighbourhood app,
which is...
you're connected to your postal code
and near you and things like that.
And just sort of honestly, just reading
through comments, reading through,
you know, what
neighbours are concerned about,
or just taking a walk as well.
Maybe not technology related,
but taking a walk in those neighbourhoods,
find out where they are,
go hang out, see what flags
are up in the balconies
and stuff like that.
But yeah, social media platforms
can be huge in that way.
Or, go old school Craigslist.
You know, check out some forms on there
and look at old Reddit.
I think that because
we are connected, people like to talk.
I think after the pandemic,
we're even more on the internet.
Having...
I cannot say conversations,
but putting our opinions out there.
So having that, and just...
Yeah, like,
if you are involved in a community thing,
with any of
the queer community,
get those connections, network, LinkedIn,
you know, these conversations.
I'd love to add you all on LinkedIn after,
things like that, just staying
connected in that
social media space.
My wife and I moved to Vancouver 20
years ago from Ontario and Quebec.
And, so that predated
a lot of the social media stuff.
But there was this one resource we found,
I think it was like a message board,
and it was called SuperDyke.
I don't know if SuperDyke still
operates, but it was a very...
my memory is it was a very basic message
board.
There'd be a subject, there'd be a post and then some comments.
But as new people to Vancouver,
it was like,
this seems Vancouver-based.
This seems to be about our community.
We can ask questions of somebody.
So it was a resource
even in its very rudimentary early
social media type at times.
Sekani, again, shifting gears here,
you referenced family and chosen family.
So I'm wondering,
what role you've seen chosen family
play in creating an environment
in which folks can thrive?
Goodness, chosen family?
You know, a lot of, like mentioning
about homelessness and meeting
a lot of people that I identified with
when I was growing up, a lot of us,
we're estranged from our community
and our families.
We didn't have a lot of family,
so we would adopt each other.
And, there was kind of family system
on the street.
And you often had,
we called it a street mother,
and that was somebody who would
kind of take you under their wing
and kind of teach you
how to keep yourself safe
and how to navigate resources
and services
and kind of show you,
I guess, the ropes of
how to really maintain yourself
in the community.
They were so important
to like sharing about that safety
and that security and showing me
where to get food, showing me
which is a good place to buy shoes,
you know, a good place to shop
that's really accepting of of trans
and two-spirited people.
And, those things are really important
to me because I didn't like...
I didn’t want to shop at somewhere
that didn’t want my business
because I wasn't going to be welcomed.
And I didn't have a lot of fight in me
back then.
I didn't want to have to fight.
Fight to shop somewhere.
I wanted to get some shoes, I wanted a
dress, and I wanted to continue on.
And, you know, the chosen family was able
to show me those spaces.
And having them stay with me
and live with me
potentially is really important
because I understand
how hard it is for
one person to afford one space.
I feel like it's
a very precarious situation.
And having... a lot of places
have very tight rules
on what family means.
I know that, like in general,
you're allowed to have family
stay with you for two weeks.
Or you’re allowed
to have a guest for two weeks
and you can have a family member
stay with you longer.
And oftentimes that
definition of what a family member is,
is very confined and stringent,
and it doesn't account for my street
mom who actually raised me.
better than my...
I shouldn't say that because I love
my mom and I live with my mom now.
And we have a good relationship now, you know?
But it wasn't always like that.
And my street
mom took such good care of me and means
so much to me.
Ryan, can you talk about how food,
creativity, hobbies and programs,
the amenities in a building can help
foster a healthy community for
2SLGBTQIA+ people?
One of my favourite things to say is
food is community.
Nourishment is community.
And so when we're looking
at developing programming, we're looking at
what is nourishing not only the body, but
also our emotional body.
We're having increasing research come out
that says that isolation
and loneliness takes years off of life
expectancy.
And so,
how do we create these programs
in a building that help kind of combat
that?
Knowing that it is, in fact,
a social, cultural issue,
more than medical.
I find food opens
the pathways for connection.
It brings people in to have those
conversations and makes those connections.
And then being able to create programming
where people contribute,
that starts
to build belonging and community.
People need to contribute to it
to feel part of it.
Sekani, what role
do you see those important elements
having in the building of a sense
of family community for 2S trans folks?
Family, I feel like food,
food is such a big part
of so many cultures.
And like, it's one of those things
that is actually a basic need,
and when you bring people
together with food...
My favourite place to go
would be a community kitchen.
And I loved it
because I got to see all of the people
that lived in my community,
and we got to cook together
and we got to share stories,
and we got to identify with each other.
And when you were able
to look
at our neighbour and see the human in them,
we're able
to really start having compassion
and that really leads to empathy.
And just caring for one
another is so important to a community
and to how healthy a community is.
And the program is just like the cherry on the
on the top of
all that delicious goodness from the food.
I love the way you said that.
I can almost taste it.
That's great.
Well, we're coming close to wrapping up,
so I'd like to put a question
to each of you, if you can share
based on your own story and experiences,
what gives you hope for the future?
And remember, we're talking
sort of with a housing emphasis.
What gives you hope for the future
for two-spirit, trans, non-binary and queer
folks?
Sekani, how about we go to you?
What gives me hope for
for the future of housing is
just continuing that engagement,
expanding that engagement to,
to kind of have an
include everybody conversation.
So having everyone
with a seat at the table
and earlier
I mentioned big wigs, right?
We're going to put on our big wigs
and we're all going to sit
at the table together and figure this out,
really focusing in on those conversations
around what it means to age in place
in the community, it's going to be
really important for the future.
Talking about, you know,
we talk about building the community
and we talk about eating together
and really tightening up that community.
But when somebody's ages, often
they have to, they're usually...
their option
is to leave, to leave all that work.
Ten years of of bonding
that we've all facilitated and created,
and now we're going to ask them to leave.
I think that is not an option.
I don't think that should be an option.
I think that,
when we look at planning for housing,
that that's part of the conversation,
Can we modify an existing suite?
Right?
What does that look like for our end?
And what does that look like
for our engineers?
Or maybe
having our engineers at the table
put on their big wigs too, and come
sit at the table
with us and talk about
what does that look like for the future.
That's awesome.
And that engagement,
it goes back to what
we so often
would say at protests and rallies.
Nothing about us without us.
And there's a piece
in what you're saying, Sekani, that I'm
going to come back to as I close out,
but I want to go next to Samantha
and then give Ryan the last word
about what you see
is the future,
where are your hopes for the future?
Where do you see wins for our community
in regards to housing?
So over to you, Samantha.
Definitely.
You know what
gives me hope
and where I can see
is... I kind of echo what Sekani was saying.
Just staying engaged and
having those open conversations.
In my community
in Vancouver, things like that.
There's a lot of spaces
that shut down expansions and progression
of housing for anyone,
let alone
any members of the
2SLGBTQIA+ community.
And just...
Yeah, staying engaged.
It’s touchy subjects.
We can all get quite upset.
Lots of language is offensive.
Lots of assumptions are offensive,
things like that.
But just staying engaged and
open minded and keep those conversations
at the forefront.
There's huge
intersectional issues that come with this...
Indigenous folks, queer,
all of it that,
there's nothing, as Jennifer said,
nothing should be for us without us.
You know, we should be involved
in these conversations.
Yeah.
And just making sure you know when you can
and you feel safe,
advocating for those
whose voices are normally shut down.
And that's something that, me
personally, I do, and I hope that more
and more of those
you do have this visual advantage
sometimes do that.
I'm very loud
and can get my point across.
And I feel safe to do that.
So I do that for those that
stand beside me and can't,
because of their own safety.
Ryan, I'm going to give you the last word
on where you see hope for the future.
I think being able to kind of choose
the community that you live
in also fosters that community, instead of
just being placed somewhere
because it was available.
And so that brings me a lot of excitement
to just think that we would be able
to again, create communities
through dignity of choice.
Our strength is in our diversity,
and I have hope in the
choices that are coming up.
Every time you walk out the
door,
you see apartment buildings being made.
I mean, to me, this is hopeful.
We're visibly seeing growth,
and it gives me hope that there's
going to be a choice of where we can live,
where we can build community.
And I'm excited to see it.
If I can,
I want to throw in somewhere.
I see hope for our community's future.
Isn't the fact that
because we had to fight so hard
for so many things,
we know how to get active?
We know how to organize.
We know how to engage with people
and get our point across.
And dagnabbit,
if we're going to have to do that
as we get older, we're going to do it
because you don't keep
a bunch of old queers down.
Thanks everybody.
It's really been a joy to talk
with you today about housing and
the queer communities and challenges
and opportunities for all of us.
Thank you so much for joining the show
and being with us here
on Let's Talk Housing.
To learn
more about BC Housing,
including how to apply for subsidized
housing in British Columbia, visit
www.bchousing.org.
You can also find us
on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn and X.
If you enjoyed this episode,
give us a rating.
This will help others find
Let's Talk
Housing and join the conversation.
You can subscribe to Let's Talk
Housing on Apple, Spotify
or wherever you listen to your podcasts.