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Motion Hatch is a bi-weekly podcast hosted by veteran motion designer Hayley Akins, discussing the business side of animation and motion design that so many creatives struggle with.
Offering quality practical advice and insight for freelance, full-time or aspiring animators, illustrators and motion designers, hear from a wide range of voices within the industry, including how leading animators started out, tips on managing your business and career advice.
For more info on how to take control of your motion graphics career and to join our community of amazing, talented designers, head over to http://motionhatch.com.
[00:00:00] Kaci: It took me a long, long time to come around to the fact that, like, my success as a mother isn't necessarily going to look like everyone else's success in this industry. And that doesn't mean that I'm not successful. That's Casey Smith.
[00:00:12] Hayley: She is a senior motion designer and teaching assistant at School of Motion.
[00:00:16] Jennie: We started talking about having this either or mentality in our industry, that you either have children or you have a career. And I hope people take away from this that you can do both, they just might look different.
[00:00:27] Hayley: That's Jenny Davis. She is the creative director at DREC Studio. Together, Casey and Jenny have made a brand new community called Mothers of MoGraph, which aims to support mothers just like themselves in the motion design industry.
In this episode, you're going to learn how mothers and parents can better manage their skills. Schedules and their businesses.
[00:00:46] Jennie: I'm trying very hard to build my business around life and around my business.
[00:00:51] Hayley: The positive impacts that being a mom can have on your career. We've learned
[00:00:55] Kaci: as moms to do things twice as fast and half the time, right?
because
we're
always
juggling
all these things.
[00:01:01] Hayley: How to make more
[00:01:01] Jennie: sustainable practices for your business. You know, one of the things that I really try to be is, is honest with my clients. I just started saying, no thanks,
[00:01:09] Hayley: and what Mothers of MoGraph is and how you can get involved. Why have you just. How did you decide to start Mothers of MoGraph?
[00:01:16] Kaci: For me, I'm kind of finally on this other side of the really hard part of motherhood, I think. I mean, it's never really going to not be hard, but I finally, like, my daughter is more independent. She's like, she's seven years old now, um, she's in school and I was, I've been reflecting a lot on my experience up until now.
And it, being a mom in MoGraph can be a really isolating experience. So I've been thinking a lot about what my role is. In the industry and where I can help out. And I've been seeing a lot of moms come up into the industry and I had kind of just thrown a post out there on LinkedIn. Like, Hey, is there any other moms out there?
Because it's really like difficult to find other moms in MoGraph. And then Jenny and I somehow like miraculously connected. There on LinkedIn, um, we weren't even actually connected yet on LinkedIn. And then, yeah, we kind of partnered up and decided to go from there.
[00:02:12] Jennie: Yeah, I think we're, you know, we're trying to create that visibility for mothers or mothers to be, and you know, it's hard, it's hard to see yourself in a specific position if you don't see others doing it.
So we just wanted to make sure that, you know, people were aware that there were mothers. In this industry and it's not void of us and it can be done and there's, you know, there's things that you take into consideration, but there are a lot of mothers out there and we found a whole bunch, so,
[00:02:41] Hayley: yeah, it's awesome.
So can you tell us a little bit about what. Mothers of MoGraph is or is going to become because I know it's quite a new thing.
[00:02:49] Jennie: Mothers of MoGraph right now, we're starting the Slack channel and the, the Instagram account. So on the Instagram account, we're hoping to do takeovers probably weekly or bi weekly, uh, on Fridays of different, uh, mothers in the industry and not only motion graphics for like.
I've reached out to some voiceover actors, we've reached out to producers, people that are adjacent to what, what we do. And obviously like VFX and illustrators, all people like related to this industry. And then we will be launching as well a newsletter that we'll do right now, I think, on a monthly basis.
[00:03:26] Hayley: Yeah, I'm curious to know why you think it's important to have a space that's just for mothers? Like, you've touched on it a little bit already, but it'd be great to kind of go into that a little bit deeper.
[00:03:37] Kaci: For me, it was, like, it was really difficult to find other moms out there. It was like, at a conference, if you saw another mom, it was like spotting a unicorn.
Like, legitimately, um, at camp, like, I went to Camp Mograph last year, and Amanda Russell got up on the stage, and it was, like, I Bald afterwards because it was the first time I had ever seen somebody on a stage that I could see myself in and I probably made myself look pretty silly when I went up to her.
I cried. I was like, thank you for being here. But, um, so it's like, it's really hard to make those connections. Moms aren't always the most vocal about being moms. in this industry. And so we wanted to give a safe space where we could come together and we can, we can talk to each other and commiserate and give advice and get tips and all of the, all of those things that I didn't necessarily have when I was making my way through the, the toughest part of, of motherhood so far.
And, um, so yeah, it's, it's important, I think, because even in some of those other channels, those other platforms, like, you know, Slack channels, discord channels, there are a couple parenting. But it was pretty rare even to see too many moms posting in them very often. They weren't very active. So we're wanting to try to provide a one spot for everybody to kind of come together.
[00:04:56] Hayley: Yeah, I think it's really awesome. What kind of problems, I guess, I don't know whether it's problems, but what are you trying to tackle? You know, what are some of the things that moms face in the industry that you're really trying to help with this community?
[00:05:10] Jennie: So I think the main thing is we're trying to bring awareness.
So by doing that, we're starting a conversation. And our hope is that studios and agencies and anyone, but in the, in the business really start to kind of. Ask themselves how they can make businesses and places of work to make people feel like they have more options. And it's not only for mothers, it's for parents in general.
I'm talking about solutions like hybrid, like hybrid solutions, family days off. I just recently discovered summer hours because my daughter was in her first year of full summer vacation, like flexible working hours, or just having empathy towards women coming back. from maternity leave because it's such a stark transition.
And I'm in Canada and we have 12 to 18 months off for maternity leave. And that's, it's a really hard transition coming from that. There's a lot of technical aspects that you kind of need to realign yourself with. Just, you know, having a space to talk. to, to openly discuss the motherhood penalty that is, that we see in so many different businesses, not, and this is, this is across, you know, all, all businesses.
It doesn't have to necessarily be MoGraph. It, it, it happens in everything. And, um, but you know, we're just calling it out in this industry because this is our experience.
[00:06:29] Kaci: I'll add on a few other challenges. I think moms face when we're, when we're working here in the United States, um, our maternity leave is obviously much different than Canada.
We get like. eight weeks. So, um, and, and, and then you're just like jumping right back in oftentimes before you've even physically recovered from labor. So there's, for us, there's that challenge of just being ready to, to get back to work and then suddenly also being ripped away from this bonding time that you should be having with your, with your baby.
And then additionally, there's things like, you know, Breastfeeding, you know, uh, pumping, if you're pumping at work, I was fortunate enough to work for a company who was very accommodating for that. But I've had many friends who have not had that same experience and they've been pumping in a Coke closet or, you know, in the, in the bathroom or whatever, and it's, it's kind of gross, you know, so like there's those kinds of issues.
Um, I would also say for me. Not only was the isolation, like, very glaring, like, I didn't have a lot of friends who were going through the same thing as me when I was going through it, but also, I always really struggled with this huge tug of war between, like, I had to pick, am I going to be a mom or am I going to be running my business, and that was a huge struggle for me.
I felt like I was failing all the time, because when I was good at one, I was not very good at the other. It was really tough to find the balance in there, and it took me a long, long time to come around to the fact that, like, my success as a mother isn't necessarily going to look like everyone else's success in this industry, and that doesn't mean that I'm not successful, because I am actually pretty darn successful, but it took me a long time to get to that mentality.
So I'm certain that there are other moms. And in fact, when we did our survey, we found out that there were lots of other moms who use words like tug of war and, um, having to choose and not feeling like they're doing great at both of these things.
[00:08:30] Jennie: And it is a choice. I mean, you know, Yeah. Like we can't sit here and lie to you and say like, you know It's all roses and amazing and like we're killer moms and killer motion graphics there are days where this is better and there's days that that that that's better and there's choices that Both casey and I and a bunch of other women on that survey have have made to accommodate Their to accommodate their lives.
We've each taken jobs that don't necessarily align with what we What we hope to be doing, but it gave us some sort of stability, which is important when you're, you know, first time mom or thinking about starting a family, you know, there there's things that you do a lot. I know a lot of mothers go into freelance because they don't have the flexibility and the working hours working nine to five as a mom is like, it's just not as a parent.
It's, it's really, it's really hard, especially during like the summer, like summer months where kids are off for a huge portion of the day. And you're kind of scrambling and, and freelance is a great way to work your work into your life much more fluidly.
[00:09:33] Hayley: Yeah, it seems like really difficult to me. I know that some countries, you know, in Europe, the UK is definitely not in this, definitely give you more support, you know, as a business owner or a freelancer to, you know, have children and stuff like that.
Like a lot of people do. more governmental help and that kind of thing, but unfortunately I don't see it enough. I think it makes you question the decision, you know, of, well, you know, should I have kids or should I not have kids? Because maybe I can't do what I want to do with my business and with my life if I do, because obviously I don't have that time, you know, and I can't sort of support myself, you know, as well as I could.
If I didn't have kids, do you know what I mean? Like, obviously, like, I'm coming from the side of, like, I don't have any kids currently. So, you know, I think that it can be, like, a daunting decision. And I'm just thinking of, like, people listening to this, probably in similar situations, who They're questioning.
Is it doable? And do you think that, like you said, like, there seems like there's pros and cons between freelancing, obviously gives you more flexibility, but then you're in charge of kind of bringing that money in, you know, which is what we talk about a lot on this podcast. And then, but then with like full time, obviously you have A little bit more stability because you know that that paycheck is coming in no matter what so I don't know I did.
That's not really a question to you all but just kind of just wanted to share that kind of side of it.
[00:11:05] Jennie: I think Casey and I were talking about it the other day where at some point and not only for what we're talking about, but we have you have to make a decision and understand what success looks like.
For you and it's really easy to look at people that you know, you graduated university with or You know, you you worked it with it at a company when you were starting out and you can watch their career path or You know go on to become Like speakers and studio owners and the best motion designers in the world And then you sort of just have to ask yourself like is that right for me?
Is that my path and I think priorities do matter change a lot. When I was starting out, I was set on being like, you know, working at one of the biggest studios and being an amazing motion graphic designer, but that changed like. Very quickly and even before I had children like I realized that that wasn't actually the path that I wanted to take So I think it's just really being honest with yourself And understanding what success looks like and my success looks like, you know, having a business that runs well I earn good money and I make cool stuff a lot of the time and I have a kid that is healthy and happy and and thriving and that's That's my success.
So she's part of that.
[00:12:23] Kaci: Totally. I also wanted to add on to, um, you know, you were saying that, you know, making these decisions, like the decision to have a family can be kind of difficult. And especially I think in this industry, because the visibility of moms like out here kicking ass is not, oh, sorry, kicking butt is not, um, Uh, like they're not, you don't, you don't see it a whole lot.
Like there are these amazing women out there that are doing it, but that was like one of my, one of our big goals in creating Mothers of MoGraph is that we want to make sure that people know that we are out here and we are doing it and we are doing great. And if you're considering being a mom, one of the big things we saw in that survey over and over again was the word terrified.
Um, I've seen many women. be completely scared that they're going to lose their career if they choose to be a mom, and that's not necessarily the case. Um, and there are pros and cons to being in a full time job and doing freelance, and I've done both of those, and I'm like, you know, there are certainly pros and cons to both of those, so.
[00:13:25] Hayley: It just makes me think a lot of This applies to everyone really as well about like trying to make, if you are going to build your business, like trying to make it more sustainable for you. You know, I talk about this a lot on this podcast and in the programs I do as well. I think it's really important because I think that unfortunately, because this industry is kind of related a lot to the advertising industry, especially, you know, a while ago.
there was not a very nice environment and stuff like that. So I think we've still got a little bit of that going on. Like I remember when I worked in ad agencies in London, you know, we could be there until like eight, nine, 10 o'clock easily. You know, they're like, we've booked you on a day rate. You'd stay here till we need you kind of thing.
And yeah, they might be like, we'll give you overtime and stuff like that. But That just absolutely wouldn't be sustainable for someone who is a parent, you know, and I think there's obviously other ways around it, like sometimes having more direct client work where you can control the schedule and stuff like that can help as well.
But yeah, I just think that I really want to see our industry in general move towards like building more sustainable careers and businesses, like regardless of like whether you're a parent or a mom or. That kind of thing, which obviously is going to help a lot with that anyway. Cause I think it's, we shouldn't be creating this environment where that is like the thing that you have to do to be successful.
I think that's really bad and very wrong. And I think hopefully. Because of COVID, I think it's kind of getting a little bit better because there's more studios who are allowing like hybrid working like we were talking about and stuff like that. Is there anything else that you think from a business or a studio perspective that could maybe help with those kind of situations?
[00:15:17] Jennie: You know, again, like one of the things about doing this is just opening up those conversations. We don't have the answers. I'm not going to sit here and say like, if you do X, Y, and Z, you're going to be, you're going to help. All parents and mothers in the industry and you're gonna want to be successful business.
I can't I can't say that, but I think talking about having hybrid hour hybrid or flexible working hours and things like that. I think what I what I've learned is when I was freelancing is that I have hours of the day that I work. Better. And that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going to work straight from nine to five.
So kind of, I think in general, just understanding that people aren't robots and they're not going to work eight hours straight and you know, perhaps a hybrid situation is actually beneficial because you can do a great four hours work in the morning and then you can do another sprint later on when you have, when you're like energized after.
Doing whatever it is that makes you happy. A lot of agencies in our industry, you're right. They do have these crazy working hours. And I think also for freelancers, understanding that they can put their foot down and being saying, this is not okay for me. And nobody's going to fire you because you're not going to work until 10 o'clock at night.
And obviously there's deadlines sometimes and these things happen, but I think that's something we need to change in our industry.
[00:16:34] Kaci: Yeah, when I started my journey into motherhood, I was actually working on the VFX side of things. And I think it's pretty well known that like it's long hours and a lot of work over on that side.
And, um, especially, you know, as we were wrapping up films, there was, it was like constant over time and work, working the weekends and those kinds of things. And although like my company, they, that I had worked for then they were, they were really wonderful people. It was, it was. Still a total strain. And especially when I, like when I was pregnant, I was very, very sick the through most of my pregnancy.
Um, so they were very accommodating to that, which was wonderful. Not all studios are like that. So, and especially I think on the VFX side, and that was ultimately why I decided to do freelance, which did give me a lot more flexibility. And like Jenny was saying, um, being able to work in. Different hours than just the business hours really made things a lot easier.
And then currently I work for, you know, I work full time for an ad agency now, and they're also really wonderful with the flexibility they allow. You know, if I need to take her to an appointment, if I need to go meet her teacher or whatever it is, like we have all of these little things that we have to do all the time, leave a little early for soccer practice.
They have been very, very great about that and they never make me feel bad about it. And more importantly, they trust that I'm just going to hit my deadlines and that I can, I can still do these things and they put the trust in me to do them. So I think that that's a thing that more studios could have.
Yeah. I mean, I feel like we've learned as moms to do things twice as fast and half the time, right? Because we're always juggling all these things. So yeah, just put the trust in us to get it done.
[00:18:11] Hayley: Yeah, definitely. That kind of brings me on to like. How, I'd love to know more how you manage your schedules.
And I guess, Jenny, maybe this is more applicable to you since you're, have your own business, but just in terms of like, you know, do you do that thing where you work for four hours and then have some time off? And do you do anything else that kind of helps you? I say
[00:18:34] Jennie: this a lot about my own business, that I'm trying very hard to build my business around my life and my life around my business.
Um, that's kind of my motto and it's always work, but that's what my goal is. I make it a point to get, actually, I took this tip from you. Um, I, I do all the important work that I need to get done. Like, you know, that I, that I really need to have my brain power going in the morning. I know that between 1. 30 and 3.
30, I'm really not concentrating on very much. So I don't do a lot. I only do things that are kind of mindless at those times. I've implemented on my own schedule, um, summer hours. You know, during the summer I don't work that late. I make a point when my kid has, you know, day trips at school to take those days off to be there.
And I work a lot of Hours, like after she goes to bed, I personally just find the less amount of time that I have, the more I manage to get done. So if I'm doing writing, I do, I've been doing a lot of writing on LinkedIn and blogs and stuff like that recently. So I do a lot of that in the evening when I've sort of had time to kind of chill and get my thoughts out.
Yeah. So there's no magic answer. It's just like, you have to figure out how to schedule. And most of my clients know that You know, five o'clock is a hard deadline and I am not going to answer the phone for the next two hours or three hours. Things can wait until the morning. It's not brain surgery. Okay, nobody's dying.
So yeah, I just try to do the important things in the morning and, and delegate. find people that can fill in the gaps where, where you can.
[00:20:16] Hayley: Yeah. Are you delegating anything right now? I'm just always curious about like how, what people are doing and what they're kind of giving other people to do. The first major shift was
[00:20:28] Jennie: Like having an accountant, I love finances and I love being on top of it.
And I just, at some point I realized how much time I was spending on that. I got an amazing accountant that he, he's like, he's my backbone and he helps me through everything. And it's obviously the finding, finding animators and illustrators to do. The heavy lifting on projects now has been great. I found a few amazing team, team members.
My next step is kind of getting a virtual assistant or somebody to do editing for me. Um, but delegating is, it's hard. It's, um, it's hard to let, let go. And so it's a learning curve on it.
[00:21:03] Hayley: Yeah, did you have any, when you were hiring illustrators and other animators and stuff like that, do you have any way you go to in particular?
Because I know everyone is like, oh, how do I hire people and stuff like that? We're kind of a bit off topic, but I feel like it's like important to dig into exactly what you're doing to make this all work, you know, a little bit.
[00:21:25] Jennie: First of all, because I freelanced for so long, I have a lot of contacts of people that I've worked with personally, and I trust them completely.
Those ones are always my first go to. We also have an amazing community here, a community of motion graphic designers in Toronto, the Toronto Motion Meetup, the TOMO. They've been around for a long time, and I know we have a Discord channel, and I I've made a lot of amazing contacts through there. Um, so that's also a place that I go to.
I started another discord channel. One day we'll take off, um, in Hamilton. So also I've met people through like the Hamilton motion meetup as well. Um, LinkedIn, I've been, again, I've been posting a lot on LinkedIn lately. So I get a lot of freelancers coming to me. I've used Rollo to, to sort of define new, uh, new talent, um, that I hadn't been aware of, I actually used it to find people, like.
More people in the Toronto Hamilton area that I wasn't aware of and starting Mothers of Mograph I started I've started to be more aware of my own hiring trying to make more of an effort to find new Freelancers women in the industry. There's a lot of them out there and I don't think that they're not always like top of mind
[00:22:33] Hayley: Yeah, Casey, did you have anything that you wanted to add to that?
to that, like, specifically, I guess, about the schedule or any, like, hiring process stuff.
[00:22:43] Kaci: In terms of schedule, you know, my schedule now looks a lot different working a full time job than it did when I was freelancing, and I can kind of speak to both of those. I was full time freelancing when my daughter was a baby all the way up until just this last year, so, um, she would have been six, and my schedule definitely looked Very different than the nine to five business schedule.
It was like I would get up in the morning and before she would get up, I would get a, get as much done as I could. I had her in a daycare only twice a week and my husband worked full time at that time. So I tried to put as much work as I could into those two days that she was at daycare, but I also just worked a lot of evenings and weekends.
So, you know, as soon as my husband would get home from his job, which, Fortunately, it was pretty early in the afternoon. He was home around two o'clock. I could schedule my meetings basically from two to five with my clients. And then I would do a lot of the work in the evening time. Once he was home, you know, just being able to kind of have the flexibility in those hours was really helpful.
When I was freelancing currently, it looks a lot different because I am working a nine to five job. But she is in school now too, which makes it, which helps a ton. She rides the bus home, you know, on her own now and, and, um, they drop her off right out here so she can, I don't have to go pick her up. I drop her off in the morning.
Um, and then balancing, you know, being a teaching assistant for School of Motion also. It's like, I will typically either get up early and get that done before my full time job, or I'll wait until right after and do that, and then there's like the whole networking aspect of, of motion, and so always just trying to fit that in wherever I can.
Luckily, we're able to do a lot of that online these days, and it's not always having to be in person, so that's helped a lot. I think it was, was it Maren Hayes who had said, Jenny, that like, you're always gonna be juggling as a mom, and so, Some of the balls are going to be glass and some of them are going to be plastic.
And just knowing to drop the plastic ones and not the glass ones, I thought that was a really great analogy.
[00:24:43] Hayley: Yeah. That's really interesting. Yeah. You've kind of talked a little bit already about some of the positive stuff, like be more predictive, you know, I always think that's fascinating. Cause I definitely feel like I could squeeze my schedule a little bit more.
But obviously I don't have anything to help me to do that. So, um, was there anything else that you feel like where having kids is like actually had a positive impact on your career?
[00:25:09] Jennie: Whenever I think about my life pre having my kid, I'm always wondering what I was doing.
And, um, you know, hindsight's 20 20. So, um, I don't know that that's, you know, it's just a juggling act and, you know, some days are better than others. And, um, you know, I tell my daughter this all the time, especially when she's angry at me, I tell her that I am doing the absolute best that I can. And this is all that I have right now.
So. So sometimes she gets, she's six, barely. So, you know, sometimes she understands that and sometimes she
[00:25:44] Kaci: doesn't. Sometimes those comments from the kiddos can be absolutely gut wrenching as a mom. It's the, you know, I remember my daughter sitting next to me while I'm freelancing and she wanted a pretend computer, right?
And she would just be like, I'm on here all day. I'm just like mommy. I'm like, okay, alright, cool it. Or she would, you know, like we'd be at bedtime and she'd be like, I didn't get to see you very much today. And I was like, well, I was home. And she was like, yeah, but you're at your computer the whole time.
And so that, like, that can be really piercing to the heart when, when they have those things to say. So I guess as a mom, you learn to get a thick skin. That's a good one. And. Yeah,
[00:26:27] Jennie: I would say that both Casey and I, you know, we have, we are both very lucky and having very supportive partners. Yes. And I can't sit here and even imagine what it would be like being a single parent, um, actually a single parent or a parent with more than one child only have one.
So, um, You know, and I, you know, I think when you have a kid, they say it takes a, it takes a village. And that is just, it's just so true. It takes like a great partner. It takes, you know, supportive friends and family, um, having people in your, in your community that you can trust and reach out for help. And, you know, when.
When you feel like you're drowning, you just need to be able to say, I need, I need this now. So, I don't know. I feel like we do a lot during the day. I'm not really sure how we get everything done, but it gets done. So.
[00:27:15] Kaci: I'll say too, as a mom, I have definitely learned how to say no a lot more. And I have also, uh, learned to set more boundaries, which was something I had a very difficult time with before I had my daughter.
[00:27:26] Hayley: Yeah. I think that's really important. And it comes back to that. what we were talking about earlier, you know, with building your business or your career to really work for you. And I think that's something everyone can try and do, you know, and say no more and kind of build up, especially if you're a freelancer, more consistent client inbound inquiries.
and leads so that you can afford to say no. You know, I think that's what I'm really passionate about, obviously.
[00:27:54] Kaci: Oh, I was so scared to say no in the beginning to clients because I thought if I say no, they're not going to want to come back to me. And that was a really difficult transition when I had my daughter, because at that point I had to say no sometimes because I just didn't have all the hours in the day that I had before.
And, um, it turns out they do still come back to It was, it was a good learning experience.
[00:28:16] Jennie: I think I appreciate you more. I think, you know, one of the things that I really try to be is, is, is honest with my clients. And back to that whole thing with the agencies, you know, working 10 hours or 12 hours a day.
I just started saying, no, thanks. And they still came back and they worked eight hours and, and everything got done because. Nobody can work for 10 hours straight and, and have good, good results. So I have a thicker skin since having a kid, much thicker skin. I can handle a lot more fatigue. And because as Casey said, kids can be brutal.
[00:28:51] Kaci: Yeah. We think clients are bad.
Get right in there and punch you in the gut. So.
[00:29:02] Jennie: Yeah. So, uh, yeah, I think I, you know, I can handle, I can handle feedback a
[00:29:07] Hayley: lot better. That's awesome. If there's one thing that you want everyone to kind of take away from this episode, what do you think that would be?
[00:29:15] Jennie: When we first started this, we started talking about having this either or mentality and, um, in our industry that you either have children or you have a career.
And I hope people take away from this that you can do both. They just might look different than what you dreamed of when you were.
[00:29:31] Kaci: Right. I know. Like there's that phrase all the time. That's like, you can have it all, you know? Yeah, you can, but it's probably not going to look exactly like you thought it would, you know, like, um, that there are adjustments to be made, but that doesn't mean that it's a negative thing or a negative experience by any means.
Cause I don't know that I would trade what I have for anything. Cause I think I do get a bit of. the best of both worlds and it just took, you know, it just took a while to mentally get there.
[00:30:00] Hayley: Yeah, I think it's gonna be awesome and I really appreciate you both doing this and obviously, um, myself and Motionhatch will support in any way that I can.
Since recording this episode, Mothers of MoGraph have already built an awesome community. They have a monthly newsletter, social channels, a site community for mums and women considering motherhood and a monthly podcast. You can help and support them by sharing their content, or if you're interested in supporting in another way, you can always send them an email.
You can learn more at mothersofmograph. com. You can check out all the links that I mentioned in the show notes at motionhatch. com. Thank you so much for listening. I appreciate you. See ya.