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Are you a new parent or parent of twins and multiples? Do you want to thrive, rather than just survive?
Welcome to our show - a modern, step, by step guide to get you best set up for thrivival!
No outdated, frumpy or stuffy content - we're for NEW parents, we are new parents and we have found the best of the best experts, research and stories. If you're time poor - look no further - community and support building, efficiency hacks and tools, pregnancy, symptom management, partner support, body, bust, skin, hair, postpartum recovery, PND, logistics and travel, parenting twin psychology, childcare need-to-knows, returning to work and more!
I'm Emily, a twin and twin mum. I have researched extensively the best tips, efficiency hacks, expert advice. Books, white papers, medical papers, online groups, articles - sifted through it all, for you. I hope this podcast helps you best navigate this exciting time.
If you have guest recommendations or ideas, feedback - please DM my on socials or email hello@dwoh.group
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Podcast: Hey There Thivival
Hey there and welcome to the
Hey There Thrivival podcast.
I'm your host, Emily
Haigh, in this podcast.
We talk more than just the usual
topics and we are a frump free zone.
Our guest today is an expert with 17
years of extreme dadding experience.
That's right, extreme dadding, twin
dad, Joe has been talking to other dads.
And solving problems for 17 years.
In today's episode, he's going to cover
what you need to spend on, what you
need to know as a dad and what can wait.
What mom should know about dads.
And how to best support them and
communicate with them as well as his
exclusive learnings across those 17
years that you'll want to tune in for.
Now, if you enjoy the show, make
sure you hit that subscribe button,
I'd love it if you give us a rating
so that we can get the show sent to
more parents just like you, to help
them thrive rather than just survive.
Okay, let's jump in.
Emily: Joe, welcome to the,
Hey There Thrivival podcast.
It's great to have you joining us today.
Could you please give the
audience an introduction as to
who you are and what you do?
Joe: Hey everybody.
My name is Joe Rollinson.
I live in Austin, Texas
with my family of six.
my wife and I have four children 2018
and my identical twin girls are 17.
So we have a house full
of fun all the time.
I've been, helping fathers of twins
along their twin journey ever since.
my girls were babies.
I've been running Dads Guide to Twins.com.
Ever since then, helping thousands
of dads, like some of you
listening all across the world
on their twin dad Adventure.
Emily: Wonderful.
Well, you certainly have 17 years is a lot
of, uh, learning, so I'm really looking
forward to getting more into that today.
and I'm sure you've got some great
learnings from having a house full
of teenagers as well, which is no
doubt, keeping you entertained.
Joe: Teenagers are, are kind of
similar to toddlers in a lot of ways.
so those early years of twins and
babies help prepare you for the
future in their own special way.
Emily: I bet, except they
can drive real cars, so.
Joe: Correct.
Emily: Okay, wonderful.
Well thanks so much Joe.
So, I'd love to hear
a bit about, your why.
you've mentioned that you've got twins,
that you've been doing this for 17 years.
Let's dig in a little bit more as to
how that started and, how you ended up
writing this book or your first book.
Joe: When we found out we were
having twins, at that time, we
already had two little boys and.
I went looking for information for dads
about what, what was gonna happen with
twins, what was in what was in my future.
And all the information I could
find, uh, be it online or in books
was from a mom's perspective.
And often had like a footnote in a book
or a couple paragraphs in a chapter.
so I thought, well, there's more
to the story there than what,
what is being presented to me.
So I kind of stowed that away
in my mind because I had bigger
things to worry about, which
was preparing for my own twins.
And so when my girls were maybe, you
know, six or nine months old and I could
breathe and catch, catch my breath,
decided to just start sharing what I
was learning through my experience.
I started Dad's guide to twins.com
as a a blog, just sharing things
that I learned that day, maybe
some takeaways, some practical
tips, uh, from that perspective.
And just started doing
that on a consistent basis.
People started, uh, dad
started discovering that, um,
from all parts of the world.
And then, you know, they started
to send me questions and I could
share what I was experiencing.
And ultimately that led to me, uh,
starting a podcast by the same name,
dad's Guide to Twins, uh, podcast.
And I ended up writing two books.
'cause as I mentioned earlier,
there weren't a lot of books.
There were no books.
There were no books at that
time for fathers of twins.
And so I wrote Dad's Guide to
Twins, which was my first book.
to help dads through the pregnancy,
help them get ready for the twins.
then my second book, dad's Guide to
Raising Twins kind of covers those
first several years with twins.
Some of the challenges
that, uh, dads can expect.
And so it, it's been a fun
journey, help helping dads from
all over hearing their stories.
Now, dads that discovered me when
they were having the news, if they
were expecting twins now coming on
my podcast and they've got five, six,
7-year-old twins sharing what they've,
what their experience has been like.
So it's been kind of a fun full
circle journey this whole time.
Emily: Fantastic.
I'm thrilled that you exist because I
certainly have noticed that there is
a gap for, dads and, I have, had a lot
of conversations with my partner in
particular about, what is the role and,
what information do you need to know?
So I think it's absolutely fantastic what
you've done, and I, I hope that people
really enjoy this, and I'm sure they will.
Now, I have to ask 17 years.
What are your biggest markets?
You must have every continent for sure.
Joe: Well, the United States, uh, being
an American myself is the biggest,
uh, reach that I have right now,
Emily: Mm-hmm.
Joe: but anywhere.
Anywhere English is spoken.
I mean, I've got folks in the UK and
Australia, New Zealand, um, but also
other countries now, it's easier than
ever for people to, you know, translate
the content into their local language,
and get, get that insight as well.
I just heard from in Argentina the
other day who had some questions for me.
Uh, they actually wrote to me in
Spanish, which I can conveniently,
I also speak Spanish, but
Emily: Oh wow.
Joe: on my website is not in Spanish.
So they were, uh, just asking
me a question and I was able
to, to help them with that.
So it's been
Emily: Fantastic.
Joe: people, uh, from
all corners of the world.
Emily: Yeah, I bet it's,
it's absolutely wild.
I must say.
I, I am seeing the world light up with all
these different countries coming together.
Did you know that Africa actually
has the biggest amount of multiples?
Statistically, yeah.
Crazy.
I saw someone with eight babies the other
day, and I, I was very, very impressed.
Um, so look, let's keep going on.
I.
I'd love to hear your twin story.
Obviously it has been
a little bit of time.
What type of twins do you have?
and just talk me through that finding
out moment, and how that went.
I.
Joe: So my girls are identical girls.
They are, well, we found out that
they were Monochorionic Diamniotic,
so they shared a placenta, but
they had their own amniotic sacks.
And when we, because they're
identical, it's just completely
look of the draw random.
There was no family history involved
with twins, we had no idea that
that was gonna be happening to us.
We didn't even really
consider it a possibility.
Like I mentioned, we had
two singleton boys before.
So when we got pregnant the third
time, we just thought, well, we're
adding a third child to our family.
In fact, um, we had, my wife
scheduled an appointment with her
doctor to confirm the pregnancy.
We, she had taken the home pregnancy
test and because I had gone with her
on the previous couple pregnancies we
had two very active toddlers at home.
I said, honey, why don't
you go to the doctor?
I will watch the boys, we'll drop you off.
We'll pick you up that way you don't
have to worry about them, or we don't
have to find a babysitter for the boys.
she went.
to the doctor to confirm the pregnancy.
in the car driving around, waiting for
her to be finished and she calls me on
the phone and says that she's ready.
And I asked How did it go?
And she said it was fine.
she was able to get an ultrasound.
I said, well that's great 'cause uh, it
seemed kind of early to get an ultrasound.
And I asked, everything
looked, and she says, fine.
They had, uh, healthy heartbeats
and everything looked great.
So I, I was very happy that
there was positive news.
And then I had to pause for a second
because I realized that she had
said healthy heartbeats, plural.
And, and so I'm like, heartbeats.
And she says, yeah, we're having twins.
So she told me while I was on the phone,
my boys are in the backseat of the
car, you know, making a bunch of noise.
And I.
I, I was just completely surprised
and somehow in my dazed state, I
drove to the doctor to pick her
back up and got her back home.
Uh, but that's, that's how
I found out that we would be
having twins was, through that.
Emily: Right.
So you did you have, it sounds like you
didn't have the case where the doctor
says, we're going to bring you in
for an early check because there's a.
I think there's something with the
amount of hormones with twins is higher.
So that wasn't something that you'd heard
at that point, it sounds like, or perhaps
Joe: the, the standard first,
uh, first test to verify that the
home pregnancy test was accurate.
That's all this was.
So we only expect, I mean, we just
expected confirmation and nothing
more, and we got, we got twice as much.
Emily: Yeah, yeah.
A miracle.
Well, identical twins
are a miracle, really.
Uh, it is.
You hit the lottery if you have those
because it's not exactly super common.
Did you rush out and buy a lottery ticket?
I'm hoping you have that in America.
Is that the right, was that the one?
Joe: maybe, maybe I should, if
I felt like I was so immediately
worried about how am I gonna pay for
all this stuff that I didn't think
Emily: Right?
Joe: I should go gamble the
money away on a lottery ticket.
But, um,
Emily: Yeah.
Processing.
Okay.
I mean, I guess it, that first
moment, there's a lot of things
that can go through your head.
Including shock.
So understandable.
So, talk me through what was the,
uh, the funniest or most memorable
response from your friends or
family when you announced this?
Joe: well, we found out that
we'd be having twins on Christmas
Eve, and the very next day we
were actually flying across the
country to visit my wife's family.
And so we had no time to process
the news that we'd be having twins,
but we knew we'd have to share that
news with family once we got there.
And so we quickly, quickly found a
couple of picture frames in our house
and we printed out the picture of
the ultrasound that showed each of
our babies, and we printed on there.
You know, safe space for me.
I'm, I'm arriving in,
um, you know, later this?
summer, and we had the second frame
that said safe space for me too.
And so we stacked these frames
together and we wrapped 'em up and
we gave 'em as a Christmas present
to both my parents and my in-laws.
so the funniest thing was to,
to see them open the present.
And my mother-in-law thought that we had
just given her some nice picture frames.
And so she had to do a double
take to look at the pictures then
realize, the puzzle of, oh wait,
you're, you're gonna have a baby?
That's great.
Oh wait, you're gonna have two babies.
And so was, uh, took the funny, the
funny part was knowing they, they did
discover that eventually, but just
watching the wheels turning in their
mind and then boom, complete shock.
we were the first first ones to have
twins, uh, on either side of the family.
So there was no precedent for that.
Emily: Fantastic.
I do think that's one of the fun
moments when you have multiples
is that moment where you tell
people and you watch them react.
There's so many ways to do it, but
it is always quite entertaining.
A lot of people these days film it, which
makes for great social media, I guess.
Okay.
So, let's go to the very beginning, Joe.
So dad's navigating pregnancy
and baby arrival preparation.
what would you say are those initial
need to knows again, somebody's
well, the, uh, birth mother is, is
pregnant and their baby's going to
arrive for a dad that's now processed.
Okay.
Having twins on multiples, what do
you think would be the main groupings
of need to knows at that point?
Early on?
Joe: Well, the priority is the health of
your partner and the health of the babies.
And so making sure that mom is getting the
prenatal care that she needs, the regular
appointments, the checkups, to make sure
everything's on track for that to happen.
I mean, that, that was,
that was my first priority.
Make sure my wife's gonna be okay
and the babies are gonna be okay.
And once I was planning to, uh, help her
with those appointments, you know, help
watch the boy, my boys or, or go to the
appointment myself, with her, um, that was
kind of one of the big priorities was, was
health and monitoring of the pregnancy.
But most of the other stuff
was, um, pregnancy wise was
outta my control as a dad.
I was not the one growing the babies.
I was, uh, on the, kind of,
on the outside looking in.
And so a lot, my second big effort was
around what can I prepare logistics wise
in the house for the arrival of my babies.
And so a lot of the focus came down to
start making the lists of what we need
to purchase that we don't already have.
'cause we already had two little boys,
we had some baby gear in the house
that we could reuse, but we didn't have
double, you know, we didn't have double
stroller, we didn't have two car seats.
stuff of that nature.
So I really tried to shift
gears, uh, quickly to focus on?
the practical preparations that I can
make, things that were within my control.
And when, when dads find out that they're
having twins, it's really overwhelming.
I know my mind raced immediately
ahead to way in the future, like,
how am I gonna pay for college?
You know, what about two weddings?
And like, it's just crazy reality
was, I need to just think a few months
ahead to what's, what's coming next,
and then tackle those challenges.
And when I solve those,
go to the next ones.
And so, kind of make it into, uh,
bite-sized chunks instead of just,
uh, getting overwhelmed by all the
possibilities of what could happen.
Emily: That's great advice.
And then with, uh, moving towards,
baby arrival, are there any
particular areas that you think.
A dad should learn about.
So maybe they're attending medical
appointments, maybe not, uh, in terms of
what type of twins they've got, and then
they're starting to get to that delivery
piece, whether they're going to be in
the room and what sort of delivery it is.
Any areas that you think
help as a dad to understand,
Joe: Yeah, but part of the going to
the doctor's appointment with my wife
was it gave me the opportunity to ask
questions to the doctor directly to see
with my own eyes, the, the ultrasounds,
to see the progress of my girls.
And that helped me prepare
mentally for their arrival.
'cause from a lot of the pregnancy, um.
From the outside looking in, it looks
just like a regular pregnancy, like
with, with the boys we had previously.
so it was kind of a surreal thing
to be like, well, I see my wife's
pregnant time she looked like this.
We were just having one baby.
But I would go to the doctor and I'd
see the two baby on the, on the monitor.
Um, but one thing we talked a lot about
with, uh, my wife and I was how do
we want these babies to be delivered?
And we talked with the doctor
about what the options would be.
Both of our previous pregnancies
had resulted in cesarean sections.
Our first son was, uh, we tried
to deliver him He got stuck.
And so my wife had to have an
emergency c-section to deliver him.
Our second son, she didn't wanna go
through that, so she's like, just gimme
a C-section and take, take him out.
And so with the twins as the dad.
And as a partner to my wife, I'm like,
honey, what do you want to do this time?
And I'll support you,
whatever that's gonna be.
If you want to try to deliver the, babies,
uh, vaginally or if you want to have a
c-section, I'm fine with, with whatever.
And so she again, wanted to
do the c-section 'cause she
knew what that experience.
would be like.
It was more predictable for her.
As we approached the delivery time,
it turned out that our, one of our
girls was, um, kind of sideways so she
wasn't even in a position to come out
vaginally if we had wanted to do that.
And so us planning for a C-section
was what would've had happened anyway.
Um, but dads need to know that
sometimes you plan for one thing.
Say we wanna have a natural birth with
twins, which is possible, at the last
minute, the babies might not be in the
right position, or there might be some
complications with the baby or the
health of the mother may be at risk.
And so you have to switch to a C-section.
So just you have to be flexible and
roll with what happens and go with it.
Remembering that ultimately your, your
main priority is health of the mom and
health of the babies that's gonna take.
Emily: Right.
So understanding that there's
multiple options for delivery,
understanding that it also comes
down to how the twins are positioned,
and of course if there's medical
complications as well, and advocating.
I think that sounds great.
in terms of tips and so with the
medical appointments, obviously
some partners are in a position
where they can attend, some are not.
would you say there's any key
appointments that if they can prioritize
that, within their means to attend?
For the best ones, for example,
closer towards the end or early on,
just if there's dad's thinking, which
appointments are the most important
ones to go to before the babies arrive?
Joe: Anytime there's, um, they're
taking ultrasounds, which in our case
we had, we'd have a doctor visit where
my wife would get checked to by her
doctor and then that doctor would
send her over to another office that
had the machinery for the ultrasound.
So depending on, on your situation,
that may be done in the same
office or maybe done separately.
But I would try to make it as much
as possible to whenever they're gonna
take video and pictures of your babies.
Um, early on, that made it very real
for me, that I could see with my own
eyes, my babies, even though I couldn't
tell from the outside of my wife that
there was two in there, nor could I
feel, you know, any kicks or anything.
still see them on the monitor.
And as you get closer to the
pregnancy, each appointment was kind
of like, well, are, is there some
surprise we don't know about yet?
That's coming up.
That means we're gonna have early babies.
I was always trying to
be there so I could hear.
If any potential complications
when the doctor was estimating
when the babies would be delivered.
So at a minimum, I would try to go, uh,
to, to those where you're getting some
ultrasounds, but now you should even be
able to be able to ask the doctor for
some video or, you know, your partner
or if someone goes with your partner,
if you can't make it like maybe your,
uh, her mom or a friend or somebody
could take some video just on the
phone of the ultrasound that they can
share with you, would be very valuable.
Emily: Right.
That's really good.
And I think you can dial
in these days as well.
So even if you can't attend
video phone dial in as well.
Well, thank you for sharing that.
'cause I do know that is a often a
question as to how often should you
attend, what's the value and, what sort
of, outcomes or insights do you get?
Which it sounds like making it
more real and being on the journey.
And also getting the health information,
which I know with identical is,
typically can be more complicated,
especially if they've got shared
sack and placenta, et cetera.
Joe: One thing to add to that is
that a lot of it really depends on
dad's work schedule, his commitments.
I had a, a job that was flexible enough
where we would try to schedule those
appointments during my lunch hour where
I can leave work, go be with my wife,
and then go back to work afterwards.
just do the best you can, dad,
uh, based on your schedule.
That's all we can do.
Emily: Yeah, I think that's great.
Great, great advice.
Now, how about, the medical process
and with medical professionals?
My understanding is it's pretty universal
that partners can be quite sidelined in
the process by the medical systems, not
necessarily, uh, the people doing it,
but the processes and the involvement
of dad not being mandatory or it being
very much focused on the health and
the babies as it as it should be.
But also I think there is a bit of a
miss in terms of, also understanding that
there is often a partner involved that
still needs to be brought on the journey.
If there are people out there that
are feeling like they're sidelined,
that the doctors don't really pay them
much attention or help them be taken
along that journey or the processes,
et cetera, are very birth mom focused.
Any, insights that you would share
to dads in terms of if they're
getting pushback or, if they're
experiencing those sorts of things.
Joe: Well, I, I would, mean, if you
can go to the appointments and inject
yourself physically into that room where
you have an opportunity to ask the doctor
questions, to look them in the eyes to
get their attention, that's gonna be the
surefire way to short, uh, you know, get
to the head of the line of, as far as
getting some attention, the, I I mean,
obviously the focus of those appointments
was on my wife and the babies.
I understood that as a partner, every
so often I would have a question.
I would want some clarification
on something that they said or
that they showed me on the screen
I wasn't afraid to ask those
questions and wait for the response
and maybe do a follow up question.
So, first of all, dad, these
are your babies, right?
You gotta to, if you want to
know something about them,
you're gonna have to ask.
And if, if may require putting yourself
out there a little more to do that for
some reason, because if you go to the
doctor in the beginning of the pregnancy
You don't.
Is not treating you as a partner
with respect and asking or, or
allowing you to ask questions.
Maybe that's not the doctor that
you want for this pregnancy.
I mean, it needs to be somebody that's
acceptable for both your partner yourself.
'cause you're a team.
I mean, you're, you're a team here as
parents and so talk to your partner
if, if that, those initial visits with
a doctor just don't feel comfortable
and maybe a sign that stuff down
the road is also gonna be a problem.
Maybe when you're discussing your
birth plan or complications or stuff
like that, you wanna have a very
open communication with your doctor.
You wanna be very
comfortable talking to them.
so if they don't.
really wanna hear from you dad,
that's kind of a red flag in my
book that I would be worried about.
Emily: Thank you, Joe.
And going through to the actual
day of delivery and, being in the
room, I'm not sure about globally
where all our listeners are, but I
know that in most places, the, The
father is allowed to be in the room.
And there can be advice, for example,
my partner was told, if you fall over,
if you look we were having a C-section,
if you look across and you've fallen hit
the ground, no one's gonna catch you.
So don't look if you're
squeamish or sit right down.
what advice would you give, or I
guess you've spoken to a lot of
people about that delivery day
and the, the varying scenarios.
how would you advise a partner to prepare?
And then what should they know
to be doing, I guess, in this
situation, based on your years
of speaking to other fathers?
Joe: As you discuss the birth plan
with your partner and with the doctor,
dad, you need to be in that birth plan.
You need to express, you know, where
you want to be and how you want
to interact with your partner and
with the babies when they're born.
Now, of course, the birth plan
is the ideal scenario of what
you would like to have happen.
You know, medical needs may necessitate
a complete change of that in the
moment, and that goes back to being
flexible with what, what the needs
are to keep everybody healthy.
But you should talk to the doctor
about, you know, where is dad
going to be during the delivery
and what would I be able to see?
How will I be able to
interact with my partner?
How will I be able to
interact with the babies?
These are great questions that
you can ask, uh, on your visits.
you can even get tours of, um, the
hospital to see where, you know, where.
All this stuff happens.
So it's not just imagination in your
mind, you can kind of visualize, uh,
where these things will be happening.
The, the reality is that we talked
about dads being kind of sidelined.
The, um, they are, I, I always
found myself off to the side
during the delivery of all four of
my children, the twins included.
And, but I was glad to be there
and with my wife having a c-section
every time where they have a
curtain below her at her abdomen.
So she cannot see what's going on
below with the babies, could I, the
doctor gave me explicit instructions.
Sit down on that chair and do not
stand up until we tell you that you
can stand up and look at your baby.
'cause like you said, they didn't
want me to pass out or be a
problem in the operating room.
So it was me sitting next to
my wife who was laying down.
She was staring up at the ceiling the,
the other doctor next to us was the
anesthesiologist who was just monitoring
to make sure my wife was, was okay.
And so when my, when the, when the babies
were delivered, the doctor said, you
know, you can stand up and take a look.
So then I became the eyes
for my wife because she could
not see what was happening.
So I would try to describe what was
happening to her so she can feel more
a part of that, because when she's
having a c-section, she couldn't
feel at all a lot of that, nor
could she see 'cause of the curtain.
So I, I kind of stumbled in that that's
a role I did not expect to play in the
operating room, was being my wife's
eyes to describe what was happening.
But that's, that's what I did to try
to fill her in as much as possible so
she could be part of that experience.
Emily: Great.
Okay.
So be the eyes and make
sure you have a a plan.
And just so everybody listening, if
you haven't heard of a birth plan,
'cause I certainly had it before I
accidentally stumbled across one,
a birth plan is essentially you and
your partner and your medical team
agree to what your optimal plan is.
So whether you want it to be vaginal,
if you want it to be c-section, the
types of medication that you want,
who's in the room because it can be
practice staff as well as the staff.
Generally, there's a set of
medical professionals for each
of the babies that you're having.
And so it's laying all that out and
pre-discussion that with your medical
team so they're on the same page.
It's basically, I guess, a plan so that.
Ideally, you're all, your
expectations are aligned and
you're both comfortable and happy.
And then as Joe mentioned,
it doesn't always go to plan.
Sometimes people go for, vaginal
delivery and then end up with c-section
as well, especially with multiples.
or there may be need for medication
that people hadn't envisaged.
So definitely get across that.
And, yeah, as we've discussed, learn
about all scenarios and that way I
think you don't get that shock in
that birth room and be in the eyes,
I think is, is definitely a great
role for a partner to play as well.
So thank you Joe.
okay.
So the, the deliveries happened
and now did, your babies go to
nicu, the, in intensive care unit
for babies, or were they not,
uh, did they not visit that unit?
Joe: No.
Fortunately they did not.
They, our girls were born at
36 weeks of the pregnancy,
and they were pretty healthy
Emily: Wow.
Joe: I mean, the doctors did the checkups
in the operating room immediately
to make sure everything was fine.
But they did not have to go to the nicu.
so they were with, uh, my wife and
I for the duration of our hospital
stay, which was three or four
days until she was discharged.
Um, our time in the hospital was
really dictated by her recovery
the C-section to make sure that she
was stable enough to return home,
and then we all went home together.
Emily: Fantastic.
Okay, well that's great to hear.
So there are many scenarios.
I just wanna call that again for
listeners as you may go to the nicu,
and as Joe mentioned, you can do
hospital tours and actually see that.
So if your babies do end
up in the NICU or if you.
Uh, having multiple, multiple babies,
it's well, highly likely that you will
if they're quite early, so you can
get a tour and go and look at that.
But there's a scenario where you don't
necessarily need to do that as well.
So being prepared for all that is,
is great, but wonderful to hear
that your girls don't go to Nico.
That's always a great
story with, uh, multiples.
Uh, if you can, uh.
Joe: possible.
'cause we hear a lot about the
cases where, um, kind of maybe
the more scarier situations where
there's some kind of complication.
Uh, those are always a possibility.
But it is a, it also possible to
have a completely normal pregnancy,
healthy birth, and healthy babies.
I mean, that happens with twins.
So, don't, don't get too, too worried
about all the possible complications.
If something comes up, deal with
it in that moment go from there.
it is possible that your babies will
be born and they'll be immediately
taken away for medical care and you
won't see 'em again for a couple hours.
Um, so that is a possibility too.
just enjoy whatever experience
you get, enjoy that moment.
'cause you're there.
you're there and you can see what you
can see and live what you can live.
Emily: Wonderful.
Thank you Joe.
So engaging in building a support network.
What are your thoughts here?
And I'm talking about.
Um, taking, I guess, friends and family
on the journey, building a support network
to support you once the baby's come home.
And so I'm talking about through
pregnancy and then I guess after.
What, advice would you have for new
parents that are expecting or they've
just got their, their baby's home in
terms of how they might approach that?
What are some tips that
you've seen work really well?
Joe: Well just sharing of the
experience that we had, we found.
That we needed help during
the pregnancy, um, as well?
as after the babies were born.
So wife put on, let's say partial
bed rest where she was encouraged
very strongly by her doctor rest for
several hours a day with her feet up.
The challenge in our home was, at the
time we had two toddler boys that would
run around in circles, nonstop energy.
And so we devised a plan where
we would hire a babysitter.
We actually had across the street
we were friends with and they had a
teenager, a high school, uh, teenager.
She would come over in the
afternoons and she would play with
our boys and interact with them
while my wife could get some rest.
And so that was part of the support
network was finding someone that
could help with our family situation.
In this case, uh, the twins
weren't even there yet.
We needed still help to
get through the pregnancy.
Uh, and that led to thinking about what's
gonna happen once the twins arrive.
'cause we knew we were still
gonna have our toddler boys
who needed a lot of attention.
Because when our girls were born,
when our twins were born, we had
four kids, ages three and under.
And so there was still a lot of
needs from our, from all four of our
kids needed something all the time.
And so we, we kind of recruited
family who can come stay with us for
and how long can you stay with us?
You know, we asked this question of
all our family members and we even
recruited a, a family friend to
come stay with us for about a month
after the, uh, girls were born.
we tried to stagger those visits
to stretch out the help as long as
possible, after the girls were born.
So we had maybe two or three
months of, where there was at
least three adults in the house
helping to take care of everybody.
And that kind of helped us
get through that super crazy
period of, uh, newborn twins.
Emily: Fantastic.
And how did you build?
Comfort with, these friends and family,
perhaps parents or parents-in-law
that haven't had babies for a, a
long duration, especially not twins.
Was there anything you did to build
that comfort up for perhaps if,
if you were planning to leave them
to look after the babies while you
slept or left the house, et cetera?
Joe: One thing in those early months
was, I mentioned we had three adults
all the time, my wife, myself, and,
and, and a family member or a friend.
There was always two of us on duty.
Um, so when the babies, it was middle
of the night time to feed, um, two, you
know, two of us would get up to feed when.
One of us would take one of the
babies and the other adult would
take one of the other babies to feed.
And so there was a lot of shared moments
together where my wife a family member,
or I'm a family member, were together.
So it was easy for us to observe how they
interacted with the babies or to, ask
them to do something differently if, if
we prefer a different way of feeding or
taking care of one of our, of our girls.
Um, we only invited people that we
trusted from a, already trusted them
from family or a friend perspective.
So getting them over that hurdle of how
they interact with Twin, with babies,
sometimes it was a leap of faith.
Um, but we were desperate for
help of any kind, even if it
was just an extra pair of hands.
because we already had the toddlers,
we figured, well if maybe if they're
not as good with babies, maybe they
can just play with our little boys.
And that would itself be a relief to us.
Emily: So different types of help
and use people's skills or knowledge
for different roles or if they're
with you and observing, et cetera,
then you can get that safety.
That's fantastic.
And did you have any events, so gender
reveals or pregnancy announcement
or, I don't know if you do high
teas or what The head, which is
the, some of the traditional.
Celebratory events.
Did you do anything like that to
connect your community more to the
fact that you had these twins coming?
and to get them excited and
engaged to be part of the journey.
Joe: A lot of our, yeah, a lot
of our announcements were just
one-on-one as we interacted with.
people, we would, uh, either invite
them over to the house or we'd go visit
them and share the news with them.
that kind of helped us connect on
a, a more personal level with them
instead of in a, a large group.
Um, we didn't have a large, uh, party or
anything like that to announce we, we kept
it to, into smaller, more personal groups.
Emily: Okay.
Fantastic.
And have you heard about anyone in your
17 years, anything uh, I guess fun that
you wanna share that people have done
that was, that worked in their scenarios?
Joe: One of the dads I.
interviewed on my podcast, had, they,
they had made custom Chinese fortune
I
and inside the cookie was the announcement
that Surprise were having twins.
So they had like a, dinner.
They invited some friends over
and then of course, then they
opened the, the fortune cookie and
there's the news that it happened.
So I thought that was a kind
of a clever way announce it.
very memorable.
Emily: I love that.
So have a bit of fun with
it and, uh, be creative.
That's, that's such a good idea.
I haven't heard that one before.
And so what about people who struggle
to accept help and perhaps these are
their first children or perhaps they
just haven't really asked for a lot
of help with their, first children.
If they've, had ones prior to having
their multiples, what would your
advice be or your thoughts be for them?
Joe: I, you're gonna have to try it.
You're either gonna work really,
really hard, or you're gonna work
a little less hard with some help.
Um, the reality is that twins
require of your attention, all
of your partner's attention.
And so if you want any kind of break,
you really need to consider getting help.
You know, ideally if money was
no object, if you had the budget,
you would hire, know, a nanny or,
or someone that could do that.
But that's not really in, the
budget for a lot of folks.
And so you have to be creative with
how you get someone to come help and.
At first, it's difficult, to trust
someone else to come into your home.
It's a little easier if you're there
too, interacting with them and they're
working together as a team to do that.
But even when I think about when we, my
wife and I would first leave our kids
alone with someone to babysit, the way
we would always do that would be, would
wait till our girls were in bed asleep.
the babysitter's job was basically case
of emergency, go take care of the baby.
Uh, you know, go take care of
the babies or give us a call.
And those first times when we would go
outta the house alone, it was for an
hour, two hours, maybe we would just,
maybe something simple like going to
the grocery store or going to get, uh,
a quick snack at a restaurant we liked.
long times away from the kids.
that gave us opportunity to, um, become
more comfortable with the babysitters.
Like, okay, I can trust you to sit in
the house, make sure everything's fine.
And as their kids got older.
Or as we trusted the babysitters
more, we'd invite them?
over earlier where they would be in
charge of getting the kids down for bed
and, uh, that we could have longer time.
My wife and I could have longer time for
an evening if that's what the plan was.
Emily: That's great, So staging
it and starting in small bites.
Yeah, I think as you mentioned, you
can not ask for help, but it will be
hard and I think those who haven't
had kids before maybe don't know what
they're in for as well with that,
relentless schedule of feeding and
potentially not having sleep as well, so.
I would say, I mean perhaps you agree
with this, Joe, the sooner, you can work
out how to say yes or, or let people help
in even minor ways, the better you'll
be 'because there'll be a crunch point.
Joe: Yeah.
A lot of people, when you tell them
you're having twins will congratulate
you and say something like, if you
need any help, just let us know.
very thing that people say, you need
to hold them accountable to that.
You know, make a list of these
people that said they would help you.
Ask them, well, what would
you be comfortable doing?
Would you be comfortable?
Uh, going to the store for us, or
would you be comfortable coming over
and helping watch one of the babies
while we do something else just
coming over to hold one of the babies?
are you all in?
Are you gonna come over and spend
the night at our house, wake up every
two hours and help feed the babies?
Um, so if, if you're,
Emily: Yes please.
Joe: right, so if you're not comfortable
having helpers, at least make that list
because then when the reality hits you,
when you bring those babies home from
the hospital completely sleep deprived
and can't think straight, can see
that list on your counter and be like,
okay, I'm gonna give this person a call
because they said they'd help me out.
And I realized now, two or three days into
this thing that I really need some help.
And so I'm gonna reach out to
the person that I trust and have
'em come over and give us a hand.
Emily: Fantastic tips.
And what do you think about, all
those people that offer saying, sure.
Food vouchers, cooked meals, thoughts.
Joe: Uh, well, those are golden too.
I, because you're so busy taking
care of the babies that you don't
have time to take care of yourself
or let alone, you know, cook a meal,
prepare food and stuff like that.
You're busy making bottles of
formula or helping feed the babies.
Change the babies.
So people wanna stock your
fridge and freezer with food.
Perfect.
Or if they wanna pay for a meal plan
or they have the home delivery of food.
Perfect.
Take it.
Um, uh, we did a, a baby shower
where the whole theme of the baby
shower was freezer, freezer meals.
So everybody brought freezer
meals that they had made and we
just threw 'em in our freezer.
Stuffed our freezer.
So then when it was time for dinner,
we could just take something outta
the freezer, pop it in the oven,
or pop it in the microwave and
didn't have to think about it.
So that was a huge help for us.
Emily: Brilliant.
What a great idea.
if I did my time again, I'd do that too.
Freeze a meal party.
Are there any common, hiccups that
you have seen, fathers have when it
comes to, I guess, uh, delivery day
and the, arrival of their children?
Joe: So from the dad's perspective,
make sure that you have.
Talked with your workplace, talked
with your boss, with your manager,
that they kind of know what's coming.
Now your manager may have kids and they
think they understand what having a
new baby or they think they understand
what having twins is going to mean.
but you need to make sure that you're
explaining to them well, twins come early.
Like, I know most babies take 40 weeks.
Twins are gonna come in the 30 week
range or more, or you know, or if there's
complications, they can come earlier.
So make sure dad, that you're always
talking keeping when you go to the,
you get the update from the doctor.
You need to share the relevant information
with your employer so that they know,
my wife may need to go on bedrest.
I may need to adjust my schedule, there
may be some complication with my twins.
I may need to just
It's.
you know, right away and,
uh, go to the hospital.
you don't wanna be stuck, uh,
problems with your employer.
the other issue is making
sure that you have.
Uh, a plan for, we talked about birth
plan, but a, a logistical plan for
you getting to the hospital, you
getting your wife to the hospital,
your partner to the hospital.
What are you gonna do with the
other members of your family?
Like we had two other little kids.
What's the plan for them?
Who's gonna watch them?
sure you have all that ready to go
so that when it's time, you don't
have to worry about those details.
You already have a plan in
place and people to call.
Emily: Great tips and with the, work
piece, what about paternity leave?
I understand in America it's fairly
low generally for birth mothers.
I can't imagine what it is
for fathers or partners.
What would be your thoughts on that?
Any, any learnings that you've had
from speaking to other parents?
Any tips that you'd pass on?
Joe: Yes.
Unfortunately here in the United States,
there's no standard paternity leave.
some of our states have longer required
leave than others, but in most places,
like in my case here in Texas, it was up
to your employer to determine how much
time they'd give you off, for paid leave
if you wanted to take, unpaid leave.
There are some federal laws,
uh, nationwide that can
give you some more time off.
Uh, but then you have to consider, well,
if, if I'm on unpaid leave, who's gonna
pay for the babies and stuff like that.
So that's a bit of a trade off.
We found, uh, in our experience in
talking with a bunch of other, of
other dads is try to be strategic
with your paternity leave.
'cause if you only have a small amount of
time that you can use to take off work.
A plan when that's gonna happen.
So in our case, I had planned to take
a week off when our twins were born so
that I can help in the hospital, get
used to having twins and then transition
to home, help with that transition.
But then as I had mentioned
earlier, we had lined up some
people to come stay with us, uh, my
in-laws and other family members.
And so then I postponed the
second half of my paternity leave
until all the help went home.
So everybody went home and
then I negotiated with my boss
'cause I only had two weeks off.
So first week was I used
up right after birth.
And then the, the second week I
said, what if I work half days?
What if I come into the
office for two weeks?
You know, just come in in the
mornings and work and then I go home.
And so that kind of stretched out how
long I could support my wife as long as
possible under the constraints that I had.
Um, so you kinda have to be
creative with what you're
giving with from your employer.
But if you are.
Talking with them, talking about your,
your, your complications or the challenges
that you're having and how you want to
be creative with your time in the office.
you know, a lot of people will be
empathetic to that because like,
oh my gosh, you're having twins.
Uh, okay, well sure we
can, we can help with that.
Of course, not all employers are able
to give flexibility like that, but
never hurts to ask for what you want as
a dad, what you and your family need.
And then they, if your employer pushes
back, then you can adjust from there.
But try to be creative with, um,
how you use your paternity leave.
Do you use it all at once?
Do you wait for it?
Do you, um, spread it out?
Do you work different, uh, schedule?
Do you come in early or do you go in late?
see what, see what the options are.
Emily: Great, great tips.
And what would be your thinking in terms
of those who potentially have a NICU stay?
Would you say it's more impactful
to use any leave once the
babies are actually at home?
Or would you say to put part of
that to potentially for a NICU stay?
Joe: A lot of the dads that I've talked
to that spent time in the nicu, or
their twins spent time in the nicu, they
would kind of postpone their paternity
leave until the twins came home.
Because when the twins are in
the nicu, they're getting all
the care they possibly need.
You've got a whole staff of
people taking care of them.
And so your interactions in
the NICU are visit the babies,
maybe you can hold the babies.
Maybe you can feed them.
But the reality is you are not needed to
do those things because there's already
people there that do those things.
Um, dads that I talked to
that had babies in the nicu.
They would have kind of
their NICU visit schedule.
Maybe they went before work,
they'd go visit the babies.
Maybe they went on their lunch break, or
they would stop by the hospital on the
way home from work to go visit the babies.
Or maybe they'd take turns with their
partner going in the evening after work,
uh, to go visit the twins in the nicu.
So was, uh, most of the dads I talked to
would save their paternity leave until
the babies were home and they felt like
they could actually, uh, to use it at
home to help take care of, of the family
and the, and the twins at that time.
Emily: Fantastic.
Great, consideration points for everyone.
And I would say as well, just to
reiterate, having that conversation
with the workplace that you may
go to the NICU, you may not.
So that flexibility is really important.
And again, knowing that you
potentially yeah, mix it around as
Joe said, with hopefully lots of
family members and friends that,
pop in at different stages as well.
So you stretch it out.
And I think another thing which
I think you have an, well, I'd
assume you have an America, is,
um, sick leave or carers leave.
If people can bank that up before
the arrival of any multiples, is that
something that is possible in America
or that you'd recommend as well?
Joe: Yeah, again, it deter,
it's based on the employer.
in my case, I, I got two weeks off paid
leave and it was basically sick leave,
um, to take care of a family member.
Um, there is something in the United
States called FMLA Family Medical Leave
Act that does let you take extended
time off without pay, the employer kind
of has to hold your spot and guarantee
you still have a job when you go back.
Um, but that again, that, that brings
additional challenges in that you're not
earning any income during that timeframe.
And if your is on maternity leave and
you're on unpaid leave, that could
be a financial, you know, maybe too
much of a financial burden for some.
Emily: Got it.
Got it.
Okay.
Well thank you for sharing that.
Now let's go on to the first year
for dads looking to understand
their role, in that first year,
there's sleeping, there's feeding.
I want to go into that a bit more.
What would you say in terms of
preparation and thinking about sleep
and, and feeding and scheduling
routines would be the most helpful
things to know for, expectant dads?
Joe: Well, I found that because I had the
two, the two singletons before, frankly,
my wife took care of most of the feeding
'cause she was breastfeeding our boys.
so I could usually sleep through
most of the night to get up for
work the next day with twins.
That was not, that was
not gonna happen at all.
it required both of us to help out and
so I realized that when it's time for
those feelings, you know, every two to
three hours in those first couple months.
My wife and I would both get up.
We'd each take a baby and we'd feed them.
At that time we were, were
bottle feeding our girls.
so I was, intellectually, I knew I
was going to be sleep deprived, but
I had no idea what it was actually
gonna, I was gonna manifest in my life
where everything was always foggy.
Um, I was maybe short-tempered.
I couldn't always think through
complicated problems at work.
so that sleep decoration is brutal.
And so I know that that was gonna be as
bad as it was on the flip side, being
able to get up with my girls and uh,
feeding them, that was precious time for
me to be able to hold one of my daughters
to feed her, you know, to look into her
face and to have that bonding moment with
her, you know, at three in the morning.
Uh, and then, uh, I wouldn't
have, I wouldn't have traded that.
I mean, the price was the sleep
deprivation, but it was a great
opportunity for me to connect
with, with my, with my girls.
Um, 'cause otherwise, if my wife had been.
Uh, just breastfeeding them by herself.
You know, I might not have had that
opportunity as much as, as, as I did have.
for dads?
preparing for that first
year, just prepare.
You know, you're gonna be all
hands on deck with the twins.
gonna be on duty all the time.
You're gonna be helping
with something all the time.
You're gonna be helping
with one of the babies.
You're gonna be me with
both of the babies.
You're gonna be doing
something around the house.
'cause your partner's
completely busy with the babies.
You're always gonna be doing something.
And that's okay.
That's that season of life is to do that.
eventually your babies
start to sleep longer.
Eventually they start to sleep
through the night, then you
sleep through the night too.
'cause they sleep through the night and
things start to get better over time.
And, um, then you start
to get your schedule back.
You can start to add stuff back into
your life that, uh, maybe you had to put
on pause, uh, when the twins were born.
Emily: And any tools that you found really
helped through that, stage of the, feeding
and sleeping when they were quite young.
Joe: We had, some rockers, rocking
chairs that we would put the babies in.
They were just like little bouncy seats
where just their movement would, would
help the baby move around and would kind
of soothe them if both babies needed
attention and there was just one of
us available to help with the babies.
Typically we put one of the babies in
the bouncy chair uh, with a pacifier
to try to hold them off while we tended
to her, uh, her sister and once her
sister was stable calm down or whatever
the situation was, then we can turn
our attention to the second baby.
So if any kind of gear that you can use
to help soothe one of the babies, 'cause
there will be times where you can't
handle both of them at the same time.
You need some assistance.
Your partner's not available,
you just have to figure it out.
So whether it's a, a, a bouncy seat
or a play mat on the floor or, or
something simple, um, kind of gear
that could supplement you would
be super helpful in that regard.
Emily: And did you use
any time back equipment?
so automatic cleaners,
heaters, things like that.
Joe: No, we were old school.
We did everything by hand.
Emily: Oh gosh.
Joe: So we had endless bottles of
on the counter in the kitchen that
we were constantly rotating through.
I mean, we made sure we had enough
where we didn't have to wash them
every single feeding, so they would
kind of stack up and then we'd take
care of 'em, usually before we went
to bed at night so that we'd be
ready and supplied for the next day.
Um, but we, yeah, we didn't do any kind
of automated, uh, things in that regard.
I know there's lots of, lots of
parents swear by that stuff now where
there's, um, bottle warmers or formula
mixers or uh, anything of that regard.
And those are great things to ask
for on your baby registry too.
Like may be willing to get those for you
if you don't wanna buy them for yourself.
It makes life a little bit easier,
but you could do it if you have
to do it without those things.
You can, you can do it.
You can figure it out.
You'll find a system that works for you.
Your kitchen's gonna be
a mess, and that's okay.
And just, just roll with it.
Emily: Yeah, you are getting,
getting your systems.
I, I will say that the trends that
I see is that mostly, becoming very
efficient and very organized processes
and teamwork with parents of multiples or
if you've, certainly, if you've got other
children as well, is a, common trait.
You become more organized.
Would you agree?
Joe: You do.
In fact, routine and schedule is what
helps you keep your sanity and 'cause
it becomes a more predictable day.
You know what's gonna happen next.
And in turn, the babies and the
children know what's gonna happen next.
And they find comfort in that predictable
pattern, which helps, uh, your, your
babies and your infants and your
toddlers prepare for the next step.
If it's like, say if it's bedtime,
they know the bedtime routine.
They know that means they're going to bed.
They know, they know
they're going to sleep.
And that consistency and
predictability makes your parenting
easier because the, the, everybody
starts to get into a habit and you.
I don't have to fight with, with the
kids as much as if every day was a
different schedule, random events, which
can really throw a wrench in the works.
Emily: Yeah, absolutely agree with that.
So Joe, we've gone through
a bit of stuff there.
I think a really good one for dad
as well as identity and self-care.
So the identity obviously changes when
you become a parent with multiples.
You've got, more, more going
on, let's just say that.
how would you say a new father should
think about their identity and what should
they do in terms of self care to make sure
they're able to have a cup to pull from?
Joe: So your identity really becomes a
twin dad once, once your babies are born.
I found that,
I.
you know, friendships, friend groups,
um, activities outside of the home,
all that stuff kind of got put on
hold for several months while we
were in the trenches taking care
of our babies and our two toddlers.
So in order of priority, was, it was like
taking care of the babies that needed
the instant, uh, attention and needs.
And then after that, even before friends
and going out and doing stuff for myself
was, I need to maintain that relationship
with my partner, with my wife, we're
so busy focused on the realities of.
Of all the hard stuff each day that if
we're not consciously taking time for
each other, then our relationship's
gonna start to deteriorate.
And so we tried to make sure that
we would set aside time, uh, just
to talk to each other once, uh,
things got a little more stable.
We talked about a babysitter
already, uh, in our chat today.
So a babysitter to, to watch the kids
just for a little bit of time so we
can, my wife and I could just leave the
house, go out and do something, even
for a short amount of time, critical
to maintaining our relationship.
So, but as the twins mature, as they
start to sleep through the night, as
things get very predictable, then okay,
yeah, we can go out for longer dates.
I can go out for longer
dates with my wife, or I.
could go out and do an activity
in the evening, or I could start
to pick up a hobby again that
I had left on the shelf before.
It was just a matter of
when that season arrived.
Uh, so my identity in those
early months in the first year
was I was all in twin dad.
I mean, I still had a job to juggle,
waking hour was making sure that my
kids and my wife were taken care of.
ultimately I started to find
more of myself, uh, after that.
But I did have a lot of joy in being
a dad in those, you know, there was
no, uh, I didn't have any regrets
about the things I was doing.
It was an opportunity to connect with my
kids, to be with them, to have fun with
them, and, I cherish those memories.
Emily: Beautiful.
lots of positives.
Expect change, expect seasons.
You've said that a few times.
I think that is a, a beautiful
way to summarize the experience of
having multiples or just becoming a
parent in general as it is seasons.
So expect it, be at peace
with it and enjoy it.
It is very special when they're fresh.
I will say, as much as it can be limited
or broken sleep, it is beautiful.
They just.
Yeah, something about that,
which is quite magical.
now, postnatal depression.
I guess the first one is
identifying it in, the mother.
It can be, statistically, it's
more common with multiples
to get postnatal depression.
That can be from preexisting trauma
from a birth that's traumatic or
from the sleep depravation or a
number of things or pressures.
If we start there as the partner,
how would you, identify that and
then help them to get support if
that's something that you see?
Joe: Well, it starts
I.
the pregnancy, you know, having, having a
conversation with your partner about that,
that is a possibility that this may happen
afterwards, and you may not be yourself.
what should I say to you to help identify,
you know, help you see that that was,
that's what I'm observing as the partner.
So that when the moment does arrive,
partner doesn't view it as an
attack on her or, or that you don't
trust her, or, or, or, you wanna
have that, that conversation or in
the pregnancy so that you're ready
if that possibility does happen.
Um, because a lot of those things
combine after the pregnancy,
a lot of the emotions and.
Uh, postnatal depression is
a real thing that can happen.
So you're looking for those symptoms
in your partner, and then you try
to call them out a, in a, let's
say, in a ideal opportunity time.
So, you know, just don't just
throw it at, at her when everything
is going crazy in the house.
You know, try to find a quiet moment
when you can talk about what you're
observing and what you're feeling and,
and share your, your love for your
partner and that you wanna help her.
You wanna be her partner to help her
get over that, call back to what you
talked about during the pregnancy.
Say, Hey, we, we talked about
this being a possibility that
we may, may experience this.
maybe we should take the next step
to, to call the doctor or call a
therapist to, you know, get some help.
it's, there's no shame in getting help.
There's no, there's no shame in
reaching out get support that you need.
It doesn't show that you're.
Incapable or weak or anything like that.
it's just we want the best for
you and want to get through
this, this challenging time.
So act as, as a, a teammate, as
a, as a companionship, to try to
help go through this together.
Emily: And what about for fathers?
Because I think it's not necessarily
well known that dads or partners can
actually get postnatal depression as well.
And again, that can be
previous existing trauma.
It can be observing a delivery that
perhaps is unexpected or can be the
sleep deprivation, and, and things after.
'cause obviously with women, it can also
be the hormones, uh, mixed into that.
What would you say to dads, in
terms of if they were experiencing
that and how to manage out of that?
Joe: Yeah, it is a very
real thing for dads too.
I've talked to a few dads that
have had trouble, some mental
health challenges after the twins
are born, and unfortunately a lot
of our attention is focused on.
Your wife or your partner
and focused on the babies.
So you're not always thinking about
yourself as the dad, but you do need
to pay attention to how you're feeling.
And if stuff does not feel right
or if you have symptoms that?
we've talked about with, postnatal
depression for, for the mom, you need
to seek out some kind of help or a
tension that may just be starting to
have a conversation with your partner.
Be like, Hey honey, I'm not
feeling right about this.
What have you seen in me?
Am I acting the way I used to act?
Or are there other
things that have changed?
And there's lots of ways
that you can get help.
You don't even have to
go in person anymore.
You can get online help, with a therapist.
So it's easier than ever to reach
out, to get some support at a minimum.
You know, reach out to somebody,
a, a friend, a family member.
groups of, of dads, there's
plenty of those as well.
You can just, if you want to be anonymous,
you can reach out and ask for tips or
help or describe what you're feeling.
And you can give feedback that way.
Just do something to, to
make some progress towards
fixing the, the situation.
Um, a lot, some of the dads I talked to
that had this issue, you, they, once they
realized it was a problem, then they would
reach out and they got some, some help
through a doctor or therapist or even
some, uh, medications to help manage that.
So there's plenty of solutions out there.
Just take one step forward
to acknowledging maybe
there's something wrong.
What should I do next?
And then go, go from there.
Emily: Wonderful.
Thank you for sharing that.
And then the next piece
there is the relationships.
So again, statistically with
multiples, just because of the
pressure, there can be a high instance
of issues with, relationships.
Any thoughts again in terms of
how to navigate through that?
If you're finding you are both not
your best selves, whether from the
fatigue or whatever it might be, and
you've got other children, how would
you, identify that in some thoughts on
how you might work through any issues?
Joe: Uh, so rule number one is
don't take anything personally.
Don't take, take anything personally
that your partner says to you.
And it should work the other way around
too, like, 'cause if you're both sleep
deprived, you're gonna say things and
do things that are offensive to each
other, that drive each other crazy.
could be downright mean
if interpreted that way.
often that's due to.
You, you haven't got any sleep for
three days or there's hormones involved
for your partner trying to recover.
And that kind of clashes,
there's some friction there.
So if you're aware that that's a
possibility going into this thing, just
take every conversation you have with your
partner, every interaction with them from
a perspective of, of not taking offense.
Take that interaction, uh,
from a perspective of, of love.
You love your partner, you
know, you wanna support them.
Don't, uh, you know, everything with
a grain of salt and, and roll with it.
then when maybe you're not in the
heat of the moment, maybe had kind of
a heated discussion calm down, maybe
you can ask about it then, where it's
not so, uh, fresh, not so emotional.
Be like, Hey, yesterday
you said this thing.
What did you mean by that?
And then you can, you can dive into
that kind of escalating in that regard.
I, I feel like were with
your partner before.
kids were born.
Uh, and so you're gonna be with your
partner, hopefully, you know, after the,
the kids are grown up and leave the house.
And so you need to work on that
relationship between the two of you.
yes, a lot of attention's on the kids,
on raising the kids, but you have to
carve out time for each other to work
on that relationship, to spend time
together, um, to serve each other.
And, and if, if you're doing
that, it increases your chances of
keeping that relationship through
the ups and downs of all the things
that are gonna come your way.
Emily: Wonderful.
Thank you for sharing that.
Hopefully that's helpful to people.
'cause it certainly can put you
in a situation where you're not
necessarily your best self Now.
any need to knows for raising, twin
toddlers, just at a high level, anything
that you'd call out for people that are in
amongst that or headed towards that stage?
Joe: One thing in toddler
age is potty training.
'cause we don't wanna be in diapers
forever, you know, with twins, we go
through thousands and thousands of diapers
and we found that a rule in our family
was, or I won't say a rule, but a a
saying in our household was, you cannot
force your child eat, sleep or poop.
And, and you just can't force
them to do those things.
You can create the environment
where they'd wanna do those things.
You can lead them to that, but
you can't force 'em to sleep.
You can't force 'em to eat and you can't
force 'em to poop, uh, poop in the potty.
So the, the reality is, with potty
training with our girls, we, decided based
on their signals that they were giving
us, that they may be ready for that phase.
into the potty training experience.
It turns out one of our girls was
more ready than the other one.
And so we're like, okay, well
we're gonna focus on the twin that
really wants to do this right now,
and we'll wait on the other twin.
So you don't have to
do everything together.
You don't have to do
everything at the same time.
Which may be the tendency as parents
of twins, we wanna just group the girl,
uh, the twins together all the time.
But in our case with potty training,
reinforce what's working or reinforce
the positive behavior that you're seeing.
of our girls was really wanted
to do the potty training, and she
did, and we would pour out positive
praise and attention on her.
And guess what?
Her sister was watching
and her sister then.
Changed her mind and also wanted
the positive attention and praise.
And so we were big fans of positive
parenting with reinforcing the good
things we saw and not necessarily always
calling out the bad things that we saw.
So that way the kids were more drawn to
do the good thing, the positive thing.
'cause if, uh, you're always yelling
at them or correcting them for what
they did wrong, that's what gets their,
that's what gets your attention, their
attention, uh, attention for them.
And so they may continue to do that,
but if you're always giving them, uh,
positive attention and reinforcement on
the things you want them to do, they're
going to do more of those things.
So that took a conscious effort to
always reinforce the positive 'cause.
The first tendency is to, to address
what, what, what crazy thing that they
did, but work on what they are doing.
Right?
Reinforce that behavior
and you'll see more of it.
Emily: So knowing that the
two individuals is great.
And it's funny you say that 'cause
I'm, I'm right in the midst of
toddler training, potty training
our boys, and we have that too.
One's just not, not as ready as the other.
So that's fantastic advices..
now this is a fun one.
Twins in school.
Now going into school, I know from
research that around six years old as
a first real relationship, let's say
cracks that, twins or multiples can
experience because they're starting to
be formally, measured, as opposed to
before it was, wasn't quite as formal.
And then you start to get comparisons
and competition in a greater
environment where you're more aware.
What would you say to parents
wanting to, protect that twin
or or multiple relationship
once they're going into school?
What would your approach be?
Joe: Well, the big decision going into
school is do the twins go to the same
classroom or are they in separate classes?
where you live may determine that for you.
The school may have a policy that
twins are always separated or not, but
usually you as a parent have a say,
particularly in those early years.
in preschool, kindergarten, elementary
school, you can, uh, say, I would like
my kids to be together in the same class.
One thing that we had to
consider was, uh, how dependent
our twins were on each other.
One of our girls wanted to be?
independent, wanted to
do things by herself.
Meanwhile, her sister wanted
her twin, her twin as a helper
to help her get through stuff.
And so on one hand we had to weigh well,
do we separate them so that they can each.
Learn some independence or do you
keep 'em together and maybe they, they
become too dependent on each other.
those are things knowing you, you
know, you'll start to know your twins
by the time they go into school,
you're gonna know their personalities.
You're going to know how they interact
with each other, and you'll probably
have a good hunch what would be best
for them if they should be together in
school or if they should be separate.
We had both situations, uh, over
time where our girls were together.
Sometimes they were separate.
And there are pros and
cons to both of those.
The big pro of having them
separate is they do have to
stand on their own two feet.
They do have to be independent.
They cannot rely on their twin, which
helps strengthen their own individual
identity and their own individual skills.
Um, but they may still, if they're
gonna the same school, they may
still have the same teachers.
They may still have the same friend
groups, and so there's a lot of overlap
still, even if they're in separate.
They have separate classrooms,
plus when they come home, they're
still together all the time.
So if you're worried about the
twin bond somehow being damaged
or broken, your twins are still
gonna spend a lot of time together.
Even if they're in school,
separate at school, they're
still gonna be together at home.
Um, so both of those worked for
us together in separate, and they
both have their pros and cons.
So another thing to keep in mind
is that it's okay to change.
It's okay to change your mind if this
year you have 'em together, you observe
that behavior, uh, and then you're
like, well, next year let's try separate
or vice versa, because sometimes you
don't know until they're actually in
that situation how they will react.
also talk a lot to the teachers, uh,
because the teachers are gonna be
with your, your twins all day long,
and they will see that connection
or maybe the dependency codependency
that your twins have, your teachers
can give some recommendations or talk
with them about how to best handle
the situations in the classroom.
Emily: And did you ever have to have
conversations with your girls about
maintaining, care for each other?
in situations during school where
they were at loggerheads or one
was let's say, good at English and
one was good at math at that time.
because I must say it does go up and down.
I'm a twin as well.
but did you ever have to have any
conversations with, how they might
still remain, caring for each other
in that environment where they're
starting to get different friend
groups and different activities?
Joe: Yes.
Going back to reinforcing positive things,
like recognizing that each of our twins
are very different, even though they
look the same to a lot of people, they're
just completely different individuals
and so they have different interests.
They have excel at different things.
They do good in some subjects and
others, so praising and reinforcing.
And celebrating those, the good things
that they're doing and recognizing
that they are, uh, special to each,
each of the kids is different.
Uh, went a long way so that you, as
the parents are celebrating each of the
twins, but then the twins themselves
see, my, my, my sister's really good at
this thing too, so that's pretty cool.
Let's go celebrate that or, or
support her in that endeavor as well.
And that way we found that, our kids have
all been very supportive of each other.
They haven't really been competitive
with one another, but they kind of
celebrate the victories that each
kid has in their respective fields,
whether it's the classroom or if it's
in sports or extracurricular activities?
Emily: I love that.
So celebrating, encouraging the
whole family to celebrate everyone's
individual achievements, especially
with the twins celebrating that
one has done this, one's done that.
So it's a reinforced behavior.
That is wonderful.
That is actually such, such great advice.
As a twin, I can tell you that's a
really, really good way to approach it.
So, let's head to our last question.
what are the biggest trends you've seen,
Joe, 17 years speaking to dads of twins?
What have you seen in terms
of the role, the societal
expectations change over the years?
Joe: Yeah, dads want to be more and more
involved in in fatherhood and parenting.
when I look back at my parents, I
mean, previous generations there
was kind of the separation between
the father and the children.
that's no longer the case.
You know, dads really want to
be involved in supporting their
partner through the pregnancy.
They wanna be involved taking
care of the kids early on.
that's, that's an awesome thing to see.
Um, because the more the dad can be
involved in their children's lives,
I feel, you know, the better the
kids are gonna be set up for the
future, uh, to have, uh, success
and have good relationships in
their own lives going forward.
So I feel like the dads, worry a lot about
what can they do to support their partner.
Dads worry a lot about what they can
do to, to help their, their children.
And oftentimes dads, uh, put.
needs of their partner and their
children ahead of their own needs.
Um, and there's, there's a
time and a place for that.
But dad, you have to also remember
to, take care of yourself or
you're gonna run out of and not
gonna be able to, to support your
family the best way that you can.
So be involved as much as you can.
17 years?
like looking at my own experience, I
mean, it seemed like just yesterday,
the, the kids are all babies and now
they're all going off to college, driving
cars and doing, you know, up things.
So it's enjoy, I, I know it's
kind of cliche to think about,
you know, enjoy those quickly
passing moments, but it's true.
They, they do pass really
quickly in the moment.
The day of it seems like everything
is drags out, time slows down,
and, um, but when you look back,
it goes really, really fast.
So enjoy those memories
while, while you're in 'em.
Emily: Wonderful advice.
And then to round that out, if there's
any moms listening or even dads that
wanna articulate their different
way of processing, 'cause there is a
well hormonal difference and I guess
I could say cultural, difference.
Again, a spectrum.
How would you say that, dads and partners
differ in terms of how they think and
communicate and approach things and
what should moms know about that to
better understand and work with them?
Joe: So dad, dads tend to maybe put
on the hat, in the re in the role
of the, provider or the protector.
so a lot of concerns around finances
and logistics and day-to-day
scheduling and operations.
because those are kind
of things that we can.
Kind of control.
Like we cannot control anything
about the health of baby or
mom during the pregnancy.
We cannot control what the babies
are gonna do when they get here, but
we can focus on, practical things.
We can focus on getting the house
ready or working the reworking the
budget or working harder to make
some money to support the increased
expenses of, of having twins.
So we're worried about a lot of those
things to try to make sure that we
can still make it through, through the
challenge, of, of infants and beyond.
Uh, dads, they want to maintain
that connection, uh, with their
partner, and we cannot read.
Mom's mind.
We don't know what she's thinking.
And so you have to have and honest
communication with your partner to
make this whole thing work and succeed.
And so start those conversations now,
you know, if you're expecting twins,
start, start building the habit of
having conversations, talking about
what you're thinking, what you're
feeling, what your plans are for the
future, how are you gonna do things?
'cause you can't just start
that once the babies arrive.
If you haven't established
a habit, working as a
partnership to do those things.
So dads want to, to communicate.
We want to help support the family,
our partner and, and their kids.
We want one-on-one time with the kids.
You know, we wanna spend time
with our kids as a group.
We wanna spend time with one-on-one
to build that partnership and
bond with each of our children.
We wanna spend one-on-one
time with our partner.
We want to go, you know, maintain
that relationship, strengthen that
relationship through time as well.
carve out time for date
night with your partner.
Carve out time for, you know,
daddy daughter activity, which
is one of the, one of the twins.
And then the next week you do, you go out
and do something else with the other twin.
so that the twins aren't always
grouped together from a father
perspective or a parenting perspective.
You're, you're kind of fostering
individual memories and
relationship, uh, with each child.
Emily: Thank you Joe.
Now I'll go to, an audience question.
what have we got here?
Let's, let's go for a comedic one.
What was one of the funniest, most
chaotic twin moment that you can recall?
Joe: Okay, so the most chaotic twin
moment when we were, we were just talking
about, potty training, toilet training.
we only had one
in the bathroom.
And so when both girls needed to go
to the bathroom, there was just one
toilet with one little trainer seats
that would go on top of the toilet.
And so it only took once for us when both
girls ran in there to go to the bathroom.
and to fight over that for us to
realize we need a, a second little
potty so that they could have both the
opportunity to go to the bathroom without
making, a huge mess in that regard.
my ongoing struggle with my girls
'cause they're identical, is, calling
out the wrong name when I am looking
at them from behind or across the room.
And so I'm always trying to cover that up.
and they, they can see right through it.
Like I'll, I'll morph the words
coming out of my mouth to the other
girl's name or try to say something
silly to distract them from the fact
they're like, dad, like, I know, I
know your sister was just here behind
me and now you're here behind me.
I'm sorry, I, I thought
it was the other, one.
So that doesn't, Yeah.
that, that's always a, a fun,
we always laugh about that
'cause that still happens today.
There, like I said, there's 17 and I
still occasionally get 'em mixed up from.
I'm not paying full attention
to, to each of them.
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't think anyone's gonna nail that.
I don't know.
I, I'm not identical and my dad got
my name wrong up until this day.
So I think there's just a
parenting challenge, isn't it?
And if they look similar,
good luck to you.
I mean, you got your, definitely
got, your hands full with that one.
I don't know how you work through
that, but thank you for sharing.
Anything else that you want to share, Joe?
last thoughts.
Joe: Yeah, so, so if you're listening and,
and are expecting twins are in the middle
of the adventure of twins right now, just,
just remember that today's challenge.
Is, uh, you're gonna figure it out.
You're gonna figure out today's
challenge and it's gonna be okay.
It may feel like the end of the
world right now they're not sleeping
or they're teething or they,
they're not, not breastfeeding.
They can't get a latch
and breastfeed properly.
All these are challenges that
gonna work through and over.
The twins are gonna come through 'em and
it's gonna be okay on the other side.
focus on what you can
control, um, everything else.
You're just gonna have to
roll with those surprises.
But it's all gonna work out in the
end and have fun on the adventure.
'cause not a lot of people get
the privilege of having twins.
And so it's a very fun adventure and
you're gonna have experiences that
your friends that have just one or two
kids, they, they don't get to enjoy
everything that you get as a twin parent.
So have fun.
Emily: Great, great final thought.
Thank you Joe.
Well, Joe, it has been an
absolute pleasure and I will
call out to the audience.
We do have an exciting giveaway, which
we will be launching with this episode.
So if you're listening now,
you will know that it's live.
So make sure that you go and,
click the link and enter.
we've got, one of, Joe's books and
some other bits and pieces in there,
so definitely make sure you check that.
And, Joe, I'll link your
details as well in the notes.
so people can check you out
Jo, I've really enjoyed this.
I hope that the audience have
found this really valuable and any.
Moms listening have learned a little
bit more about a dad's perspective,
and your father's listening and now
feeling much more equipped and peaceful.
That's certainly how I feel
in terms of your approach.
Very peaceful, very realistic
with a little bit of humor.
So Joe, it's been a pleasure.
Thank you so much for joining us today.
Joe: Thank you for having me.
It was a pleasure.
Now, if you enjoy the show, make
sure you hit that subscribe button,
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