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Welcome to The Health & Wellness Practitioners Podcast! Dr. Danielle and other guest experts talk about everything from getting your practice started, developing your clinical skills, growing your practice YOUR way, and dealing with the real stuff life burnout and work/life balance. Whether you’ve been practicing for decades or just started your journey, you’ll find something here for you!
Dr. Danielle:
Welcome to the Health and Wellness Practitioners podcast. I am your host, Dr. Danielle Angela. In this show, I and my guest experts will talk about everything from getting your practice started to developing your clinical skills, growing your practice your way, and of course, dealing with the real stuff like burnout and work-life balance. Whether you've been practicing for decades or just started your journey, you'll find something here for you. So take a deep breath and enjoy the show.
Dr. Danielle:
Hello everyone. Welcome to a new episode of the Health and Wellness Practitioners podcast. I'm here today with Jen Hope, and we are going to be talking about overcoming imposter syndrome so you can become a better leader. I know all of you not all of you. I know a lot of you , and I know that you feel like you wanna do bigger things with your career and your work, and you wanna make a bigger impact, but yet there's, there are some things standing in your way, and sometimes those are how you feel about yourself or what you think about yourself. We're gonna talk more about that today. Before we dive in, I am going to throw some rapid fire questions at you Jen, are you ready?
Jen Hope:
Let's do it.
Dr. Danielle:
Okay. First things first. Tell me why you chose the career path that you are on.
Jen Hope:
Well, two reasons. And my last job we had a meeting that we held every single week and looked at the same spreadsheet of data every single week. And I sat in that job and I said, there will never be a time where I am a butt in a seat looking at the same spreadsheet every single week in a row. And I gotta get out. This is, this was, this was my definition of, of, of just insanity for me. I couldn't do it anymore. And there's this connection, there's this intersection of the two things that I have studied and that I have love, and it's the intersection of business and people and that's what I get to do. I have this incredible joy of being able to, to, to really work on this intersection of people and business every day. It's, it's my passion. It makes me happy. It's what I would do if I won the lottery. This is, this is it.
Dr. Danielle:
Well, that's pretty amazing to do what you're doing, even if you won the lottery.
Jen Hope:
Yeah. For real.
Dr. Danielle:
Yeah, I love it. Tell me more about what fills you up.
Jen Hope:
Connection with people. Being outside dogs, every dog, all the dogs and movement really like being able to move and move, you know, every single day. And that gives me the capacity I need, the tools I need, the head space. I need to, to do what I do and to, to be there for the people in my life.
Dr. Danielle:
I have a very awesome dog that you would love if you are a dog lover, because he loves everyone and everything. His name's Jake. He's actually on the floor behind me right now, and he is usually at my side . If not, he's like with somebody else that lives in the house, my children. And he's a chocolate lab. He's about 86 pounds, maybe a little more than that right now, since it's been winter and we haven't been outside as much. But he's like a gentle giant. Well, he can also be, he's not, he's never aggressive at all. He's just very strong , so he wants to sit on your lap, but he would probably knock you over by acting like that. .
Jen Hope:
I love that. I love that.
Dr. Danielle:
Next question. What do you like least about running a business?
Jen Hope:
Well, I worked in marketing for 18 years, and I left marketing because I didn't wanna do marketing anymore. And it turns out I'm still a CMO. So yeah, so running a media company I ran a whole bunch of media companies and built media departments and I think it's, I think it's really challenging. I think it's being CMO of your organization, whatever that organization is it's a big job and there's a lot to it, and it's probably, it's more complicated than I've ever seen it. And so I think that's one of the hardest things to do in our business.
Dr. Danielle:
Hmm. You're my second interview today, and the last person I interviewed said the exact same thing, the thing that she liked least about running a business was marketing. And yet without marketing, we don't have a business.
Jen Hope:
Should I think of a different answer? Can I try a different answer? How about bookkeeping? No, I'm just kidding. , to never be the same as anyone else. I am going to say No.
Dr. Danielle:
No, I think that that's really real though, because I know that most of the people listening to this will also feel the same way. That the thing they like the least about having their own business is having to do the marketing
Jen Hope:
Sales Right. Too. It's the same. It's the, it's one and the same. It's really, it's a challenge for folks. I think the sales part has been easier, but definitely marketing.
Dr. Danielle:
Okay. Next step. What book do you think that every person should read?
Jen Hope:
Gifts of Imperfection by Brene Brown.
Dr. Danielle:
Mm.
Jen Hope:
I've thrown that book across my room. I'd pro so many times. Like, Ugh, why is she so right? . it's so frustratingly good. And yeah, or Self-Compassion by Kristen Neff. Like, another one I'd like, intellectually it made sense to me and my body I couldn't make sense of it the first time. Like first three or four times I tried to read it, just couldn't swing it.
Dr. Danielle:
I haven't read The Gifts of Imperfection in a long time. I think it was 2018 when I read that book. And it feels like one worth revisiting.
Jen Hope:
Oh, always. It, it's, I feels like my, like, you know, church, whatever that means to, you know, to me like it's like a constant, I could learn something from it every time I look at it.
Dr. Danielle:
Okay. Last rapid fire question is, on a scale of zero to 10, how crunchy are you?
Jen Hope:
Ooh, what do we mean by crunchy? Like make your own nut milk crunchy. Is that crunchy?
Dr. Danielle:
Yes.
Jen Hope:
That level. Yeah. Well, I have definitely made my own nut milk. And so there, I guess that's the answer. . Yeah. Is that ? I have a kit. I have a kit to make nut milk. Yeah. yeah, I've been practicing meditation for a decade. I like to, you know, put my feet in the dirt and have a sandy butt once every couple weeks, months, , that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. That, that's pretty crunchy
Dr. Danielle:
Milk I think is, is a pretty crunchy thing to do. I've never done that. And I would rate myself at around eight. I think I'd be a solid nine if I didn't have children. But my children have their own, you know, expectations and like wants in desires and they, they see what other people have and they want those things, even if, I don't necessarily think that's what I would want for them to have. So I kind of like loosen up my expectations that eight, eight and a half is probably too high in reality.
Jen Hope:
, I think also our environment can affect us. Like, I live in Seattle and so like we've, we're heavy on the crunch around these parts, you know, like lots of practical shoes and not a lot of high heels, you know, that kind of thing.
Dr. Danielle:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I live in rural Missouri, so I mean, like nothing gets more dirty , and like the actual dirt sense than rural Missouri. Yes. Okay, so our topic for today is overcoming imposter syndrome to become a better leader. Oh my gosh. Let's first start with the definition of imposter syndrome for people that are completely unfamiliar with it, what would you want them to know about imposter syndrome?
Jen Hope:
Yeah, so one definition of it essentially refers to an internal experience of believing that you are not as competent as others perceive you to be. So having internal conflict I'd sometimes refer to these as imposter thoughts that tell us like, I am somehow undeserving. I didn't deserve this postition. When will I be found out? I'm not fill in the blank enough, right? Creative, smart, et cetera, et cetera. Enough.
Dr. Danielle:
Yes, I can very much relate to the when will I be found out feeling? When I finished chiropractic school, actually, I guess technically I'm still in chiropractic school, I applied for a residency position and that's a very rare thing. Even now, all of these years later I was a third person to hold that position. It was a residency in sports and rehabilitation. I applied for it because it was 2008 and the economy was doing the economy thing. And I thought, now it doesn't really seem like the time to start my own business, even though that was what I had gone to chiropractic school to do. And I got, I got accepted into the residency and about a week after I graduated, I was working alongside the instructors who had just taught me how to be a physician for the last three and a third years. And I was like, there's no way that I'm actually qualified for this job. And if they knew like, who I really am, I wouldn't have gotten this position I think the next like two years just kind of waiting. Yeah. Maybe not too a year solidly, like waiting to be found out, and fired from my job.
Jen Hope:
Oh,
Dr. Danielle:
Yeah. But it was a very impactful experience, that's for sure.
Jen Hope:
Yeah, did you, is it one of those where like you're looking around like comparing yourself to them for, or was it like that, like, cuz that happens, right? I I chat with folks a lot or talking about like, oh, this person has X or Y or, you know, somehow they're, I don't know, like how does that happen?
Dr. Danielle:
Yeah. I'm not really sure exactly what it was now, but I certainly felt like I didn't, I, like, why did they choose me? I didn't deserve permission.
Jen Hope:
That like, luck got me here somehow mm-hmm. , or Yeah.
Dr. Danielle:
Or like, they couldn't, they couldn't find someone else. So
Jen Hope:
Oh my gosh, isn't that so wild? What our brain comes up with? Like, I don't know, these thoughts that are like, I don't know the idea of like, it being a hot thought, right? Like, what is the data that like this organization with all of these skilled folks, like somehow mistakenly chose you, right? Like if we went through the data that either supports or does not support that thought, I am certain that we would find a bunch of data that suggests that like, you are exactly where you are meant to be. Right. Skilled and deserving a whole bunch of other things.
Dr. Danielle:
Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't an easy interview process by any means. So I don't know, but that was my experience with, I I think actually one of my first like aware experiences with feeling what we call imposter syndrome. Cause I, I was aware, like, I feel this way, but yet here I am doing this thing.
Jen Hope:
Yeah. I had I had someone tell me I took a role it was my first VP role and I had someone kind of mentoring me at the time, and she, I was asking her like, you know, like, how, how did this happen? Right? Like, how did I get here? And because, you know, so say, you know, a little bit of trying like this is, you know, gosh, a really long time ago. But looking around, I mean, like, I know I worked my tail off, right? And I know I worked hard to get here and I know, know that, you know, I can do this job, but like, why did they pick me? And her feedback was so helpful because , she said, well, other people could do this job, right? They, they definitely could do this job, but they wouldn't do it the way that you would do it.
New Speaker:
And they chose the, like, for Jen to be in this position the way that Jen would do this position. And that really, that stuck with me in, you know, a, a practice, you know, having my own practice, like somebody's going to come and work with me. And it's the way Jen does it. It's the way your, you know, your listener does it. It's the way you do it. And I think that's, that's really stuck with me from a, you know, VP position all the way for the past 10 years that I've been doing this job of like, it's the way that I do it. There's, you know, there are other people out there, but it's the way that, that I do it and, and the the Jen flavor that I'm gonna bring to it.
Dr. Danielle:
Yeah. Absolutely. Can you talk a bit more about what the symptoms might be of imposter syndromes? Is that people that are listening might be able to identify, do, do they feel this way? Are they struggling with this same sort of thing? Does it look different for them?
Jen Hope:
Yeah, I mean, so one of the things that I try to like kind of slow my, slow my own role on imposter syndrome about is that it can sound what I call more like imposter thoughts. So what does it sound like to experience self-doubt? What does it look like to be in a position where there's like some sense of like having an inner bully who doesn't celebrate our success, right? To have some, like, we're achieving, but the achieving doesn't necessarily even quiet or register in like, if we had a database , it wouldn't register in the category of a success in our minds. We can, you know, easily brush that off. Or, or like a, it really can sound from what I understand from folks in their own minds constantly comparing or approving of self, right? So when you get into a role, I'm gonna prove myself, I'm gonna outwork, I'm gonna, you know, kind of look around and make sure that I'm doing it all, holding it, gripping it so tightly to, to prove my worth.
Dr. Danielle:
Mm-Hmm. yes, having hosted this podcast for eight years now, I know the, the people that listen and I know that they feel this, what you're describing, they feel this sense of self-doubt, right? And they oftentimes have bigger dreams for their careers. They have ideas that might seem crazy things that they're capable of doing, if only they saw themselves as capable, as capable of, of being able to create those things, those bigger visions, right? And yet the self-doubt holds them back from oftentimes from even getting started. So if someone recognizes that this is an aspect, this is an aspect of, you know, like getting to that next level, if you will, for their career or their goals, what do they do next? Where do they start?
Jen Hope:
I start with the pause of how, how, what have we put in our ears that have told us that we are somehow different because we're experiencing self-doubt, right? So like, what is it? And I know there are a lot of folks who identify as female that listen to our podcast, right? We're marketed at as business owners, female business owners, a lot, a ton about like building confidence, overcoming imposter syndrome, all of these things that we can look around and that sound easy, right? There's so much marketing that you can like type into a search bar and say, how do I overcome this? And be provided with a very simple answer. And, you know, to put it, frankly, I call like garbage on a lot of that, right? That like, there are folks who are making money off what we're telling ourselves. And so I challenge folks to start with like, Hey, what's the messaging here that we've taken in?
Jen Hope:
What are we taking on as somebody telling us that, that we have, that we need more confidence that, you know, when we do X and Y then we can move forward, right? So a little bit of pause to say you've maybe been fed a little bit of garbage that, you know, that kind of in a moment where you were feeling weak and vulnerable. So time out on that. And then what and then what, and, and what I, where I start folks oftentimes is getting to something that's a little bit more data oriented. So going through and building lists that either like, support this thought that I am not enough, or I'm feeling doubt about, and collecting some information about it. I know you have a fairly analytical audience. I know that they're probably a little bit crunchy too, but really using some of that analytical head space to say like, what are the facts? Like , what are the facts here? Like in working with, with some of the clients that come into my coaching practice, we do some assessment. We do assessment work either from either self-assessment or we can do leadership assessment work that say like, based on some quantitative qualitative data, here are the strengths that we see when, you know, we're looking at this individual and give them something a little bit more quantitative to rely on versus this inner bully, this inner narrative, this kind of core habit that we have of doubt.
Dr. Danielle:
So in your opinion, in your, in your expert opinion, does someone have to overcome imposter syndrome to do bigger things?
Jen Hope:
We have to keep going, yeah.
Jen Hope:
Does that mean that we have to overcome imposter syndrome? I don't know that that's, I think that's the oversimplification, right? The oversimplification is do we have to take steps and be uncomfortable and do things that are outside of what we consider to be our expertise? In the moment, because we, you know, I, I'm certain you've talked about this at some point, but like that, that jumping off point from competence through to confidence, right? So like you jump off and we don't have com..we, you know, we need competence. We need to believe that we're competent in an area to have confidence in that area, right? And so like that we have to do that we have to go forward and say, okay, I, I am not certain that I have competence in this area, but I'm willing to leap, I'm willing to trust and say like, okay, I'll go try that thing, see if I have confidence, right?
Jen Hope:
I'll go get on, you know what, whatever it is, the bunny slope or whatever, you know, the magic carpet at the mountain, and I'll go down that right? Until I have competence in that area there, and then I'm gonna get on a lift and I'm gonna go a little bit higher, and then I'm gonna navigate that terrain, right? And, and like, yeah, like are you, are you certain at the top that you're gonna make it? No. You know, but you're doing it. Are you gonna fall, like likely , right? Are you gonna get back up? Yeah. Are the few first few days gonna be brutal? Maybe, right? Maybe not. Maybe you're, you know, super gifted and then we're all like, you know, celebrating for you. And, but that is yes. That you have to do that part. Does that, is that overcoming the imposter syndrome?
Dr. Danielle:
Hmm.
Jen Hope:
That's not how I look at it.
Dr. Danielle:
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, that, that's such an interesting thing to reflect on too, because I have been asked so many times, how did you do what you do? How did you start a podcast? How have you built an online business? How have you done these things that most chiropractors, I mean, well, most people haven't done right? And I didn't, I didn't have it all laid out. I didn't know like, well this year I'm going to do this, and this year I'm going to do that. And then the following year I'm going to do that. It's been messy. But the one thing that I was willing to do was just to do it . And I didn't feel, I mean, shoot, even starting a podcast, I, I definitely had imposter syndrome. You know, I remember doing those first like eight interviews I think I had done before I actually published them and like launched the podcast. And I'm doing those interviews thinking, Hmm, am I, am I doing a good job at these interviews? Like, I've never done an interview before. Who am I to do this? And yet I was balancing that inner voice with the inner voice or the inner knowing maybe that like, there was something bigger that was going to come from just doing this thing. So what a dance .
Jen Hope:
There's that aspect too where we all have we have ways that like, we get reactive, right? We have ways where like when your back is against the wall, right? Like you, you, you have a way that like either you are a person who like moves towards move away, move against, right? Like there's just kind of, there's ways that we all react in those situations, right? And I think with, with perfect, you know, which we think is control , we, it's stopping, right? Like, it's like perfect. And, and perfectionism can also get wrapped up in here and say like, is this perfectionism? Is this how perfect is manifesting itself in like, stop, right? So like, you're on a path, you're on a journey and there's messages in your way. Like, don't do it. You might look stupid. What if it, what if da da da da da.
Jen Hope:
And, and if you're like on a, on this path, , and we sit down, are we have we let perfect get in our way? Have we let the idea that like, that we're controlling somehow, like the embarrassment or whatever it is that we're going to feel in the future, like that we're for sure future tripping on because we don't know. Right? and and does that stop us? Like do, is that, is the sitting down control is that, are we exercising the control that we really want to be exercising? Is that, is that safety, is that protection? You know? I don't know. I think there's a way that we can like do it too without judgment. Like part of what we, I think happens to folks sometimes too is then we're judging ourselves for not having taken a step yet. Like, oh, well I didn't do it yet, so now I'm gonna get on myself about it.
Jen Hope:
Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, . That's not, that's not serving, that's, you know, you're going backward, right? If we're now judging ourselves for not having the courage yet or being ready yet, that's okay. We're here today. We get all those days that are coming in front of us and then, and then we get to take those steps. But the judging us or judging our past us is really like that second dagger kind of thing, right? Like, this was already hurting, it was already scary. And now you're adding your own judgment on top of it. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, be nice to my friend, right? Like, , chill out. Don't be so harsh.
Dr. Danielle:
Yeah. And really what continues to happen then is like a vicious cycle. That can be very hard to end.
Jen Hope:
Or we can look at it and say like, I didn't know better yet. I didn't know what I didn't know yet. Right? Like, I was doing that. I didn't know I was doing it. And then like as of today, now I know better and I've learned and now I can give myself like a bunch of permission to have done it that way before and then say, okay, and now I know, and so now I can do something differently. Right? Like that's that turning point where we're like, you didn't know before. You didn't have the skill, you weren't made aware, right? It wasn't in your, it wasn't in your field of vision. And then it's like, okay, now it's here. Now what? Right. Like, we do our best to practice something different every day, we hope, and then some days we totally don't.
Dr. Danielle:
. Yeah. I love that. I, I think that just speaks to like what life is, is learning the lessons that we're presented with and then choosing, you know, to do something differently when, when we have those opportunities. Looking at, I guess looking at the lessons as opportunities is is part of the process though, right? Instead of looking at them as failures.
Jen Hope:
Yeah. And I don't know, going back to like Kristen Neff and everything that I've learned from her about self-compassion, like that's that moment that this is struggle, like baseline, this is struggle. And it, and it has that entrepreneurs, particularly people who are going out on their own, like it is not easy. It's, it is struggle. There are highs, there are lows, there are big, big dips in what we're trying to do. It takes so much courage to, to, to be out here and have yourself be the center sometimes of what you're building. And there is struggle in that and in that struggle, that moment, right? Of like, what is easier to do in that moment? Sometimes it's easier to be harsh on ourselves and to do what we may have learned in our systems around us. Like, oh, well, you know, you didn't work hard enough, right?
Jen Hope:
Or you, you know, why didn't you think of X, Y, and Z first? Or, you know, whatever thing that we can tell ourselves versus like, oh dang, so sorry, this is so hard. Like, I got you. Like, you know, I think I use this metaphor like at least once a day of like, who's the person who's gonna like sit on the front porch with you and put their arm around you like, and be like, okay, I'm, you know, I'm here. I got you dude. And, and, and like to do that for ourselves versus that like somehow like beating ourselves over the head when it's hard. Cuz it is hard. Have, I've been running businesses for 20 plus years and it is hard .
Dr. Danielle:
It is, it, it requires hard work. And as we talked about at the start of your interview, both of my guests in the podcast today have said that the least favorite aspect of running a business is the marketing. And yet, if no one knows that you have a service available, there's no business. Right? So putting yourself out there when you're a small business owner is like the number one task and it's also the hardest task.
Jen Hope:
Yeah. Yeah. When you think about that too, like, I think about branding and think about like how we differentiate ourselves. Those are all pieces that are when we're early in our process can be really difficult to see. They sit in like that unconscious awareness place, right? It takes, you know, a handful of times of having someone reflect it to you and you reflect it to yourself for you to start to say like, oh, this is, you know, this is what's differentiated about me and to own it, right? Like, I changed careers in my thirties and like, I, I was very clear on what I was good at in my previous career, and then I was like a newbie, newbie. I, I, I, you know, I, it was so different to go from having this career where I had such clarity about the value, you know, of, of what I did and to make this shift. Like, it, it took time to be able to stand in the you know, the same in confidence the same way, right? Like to complete that competence, confidence loop enough times to have my own database to work from that said like, okay, these are the things that I am very grounded in.
Dr. Danielle:
I think your personal experience there is really valuable because there are many people that are in the phase of their practice where they're very seasoned practitioners and they've mastered their craft with patient care or client services and they're ready to do something bigger, something that they feel like is more, and they're like really proficient in the work they've been doing for a long time and can't seem to quite like, make the leap into the next, the next phase or like into that next level or into that new thing, that bigger thing that makes more impact. But that's, I think a lot of what you just described, where no matter how old you are, how you know, how long you've been in your career, if you are starting something new, there's a whole new learning curve. There's a whole new how did you say, the competency, competence, competency,
Dr. Danielle:
Right? And so just giving yourself like that grace, no matter what your age is chronologically, to know that as you step into becoming a leader in a different way, whether it's building a team in your existing practice or, you know, starting an online service after two and a half decades of brick and mortar business, there's a whole new competency confidence cycle that will begin and you won't know all the answers and it will be hard and there will be times that it will be scary, but your confidence will increase if you keep doing, if you keep taking action.
Jen Hope:
Yeah, for sure. For sure. And being, being willing to be kind in that process, right? Like to yourself and, and let go a little bit like that. I'm, if you're listening, I'm holding open hands, right? That like holding it with open hands kind of versus like squeezing it so tight. That because in, you know, such an experimental mindset in that moment, like when you're, when you're starting something new to say like, I think this is the thing that I'm gonna do and I'm gonna go forward with it, but I'm gonna test it. I'm gonna experiment a little bit. Which if we love like perfect and a hundred percent with a bow, like, ooh, that is as a hard place to be and I'm raising my hand because, you know, it is something that I have to practice as well. Like we, you, you just do, and you have to get comfortable with, like, I have a little bit of information.
Jen Hope:
I'm gonna make some guesses, I'm gonna get a little bit more information and I'm gonna tweak. And that's like, I'm gonna live with that ambiguity, like that's very startup world that I came from. But, but also, like, so part of what you're talking about of that stretching and, and having like a little bit of a hunch kind of betting on yourself that you'll figure it out. And, and trusting that like yeah, the skills that you, the skills that got you here are also the skills that you need. Like in the future, right? All the, all the way that you do it, you can do it with the skills that you have. It may look very different than someone else's version. But with the skills and the education and all of the pieces of what you've already done, like you will figure this out. You can. So it's doable.
Dr. Danielle:
Awesome. Jen, thank you so much for this conversation. This, this was personally impactful for me, , so I hope that it was helpful for all of our listeners as well. If people would like to learn more about you and connect with you, where is the best place for them to go?
Jen Hope:
Yeah, so I'm at, hey Jen, hope so. H e y j e n one n h o p e.com. Heyjenhope.Com So heyjenhope.com as a place to go to set up a discovery call and to learn more about my practice.
Dr. Danielle:
Awesome. Thank you again so much.
Dr. Danielle:
Hey, thanks so much for joining me for today's episode. If you love this podcast, then be sure to join our free community, the Health and Wellness Practitioners Group over on Facebook where you can continue the discussion and get to know other people in the community as well. We're a group of chiropractors, natural paths, acupuncturists, midwives, doulas, massage therapists, mental health therapists, counselors, nutritionist, and the list goes on. So come join us, get to know other people, build some personal and professional relationships. You can find the group by heading to dr diel angela.com/community and request to join the group. I will see you inside from there.