CR096 TechnoVision 2025: Your gateway to cutting-edge innovation with Data-Powered Innovation Jam podcast

TechnoVision 2025 by Capgemini helps business leaders and technologists understand and prioritize emerging technologies. It provides a clear view of tech trends, guiding decision-makers to enhance organizational effectiveness. TechnoVision acts as a beacon in the evolving technology landscape.

In this very special episode, Dave, Esmee, and Rob talk in detail with the Capgemini Data-Powered Innovation Jam podcast team, featuring Ron Tolido, CTO and CIO Insight & Data Global; Weiwei Feng, Global Tech Lead AI & Generative AI; and Robert Engels, Head Global AI Lab. They explore the seven containers in TechnoVision 2025, which organizes current trends into distinct areas that shape how businesses will innovate, operate, and expand.

TLDR
00:50 Teaming between the Cloud Realties hosts and the Data-Powered Innovation Jam podcast team
05:52 Introduction by Ron Tolido, what's new in TechnoVision 2025 and the 7 main containers
12:25 Invisible Infostructure by Rob Kernahan
21:32 Applications Unleashed by Ron Tolido
37:30 Thriving on Data by Robert "Dr. Bob" Engels
47:36 Process on the Fly by Weiwei Feng
1:02:40 We Collaborate by Dave Chapman
1:13:27 You Experience by Esmee van de Giessen
1:26:39 Balance by Design by Ron Tolido
1:28:06 Overall conclusion

Guests
Ron Tolido: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rtolido/
Robert (Dr. Bob) Engels: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertengels/
Weiwei Feng: https://www.linkedin.com/in/weiwei-feng-a2417795/

Data-Powered Innovation Jam podcast https://www.capgemini.com/insights/research-library/data-powered-innovation-jam-podcast/

TechnoVision 2025
https://www.capgemini.com/insights/research-library/technovision-2025/

Hosts
Dave Chapman: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chapmandr/
Esmee van de Giessen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/esmeevandegiessen/
Rob Kernahan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-kernahan/

Production
Marcel van der Burg: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcel-vd-burg/
Dave Chapman: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chapmandr/

Sound
Ben Corbett: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ben-corbett-3b6a11135/
Louis Corbett:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/louis-corbett-087250264/

'Cloud Realities' is an original podcast from Capgemini

Creators and Guests

Host

Dave Chapman

Chief Cloud Evangelist with nearly 30 years of global experience in strategic development, transformation, program delivery, and operations, I bring a wealth of expertise to the world of cloud innovation. In addition to my professional expertise, I’m the creator and main host of the Cloud Realities podcast, where we explore the transformative power of cloud technology.

Host

Esmee van de Giessen

Principal Consultant Enterprise Transformation and Cloud Realities podcast host, bridges gaps to drive impactful change. With expertise in agile, value delivery, culture, and user adoption, she empowers teams and leaders to ensure technology enhances agility, resilience, and sustainable growth across ecosystems.

Host

Rob Kernahan

VP Chief Architect for Cloud and Cloud Realities podcast host, drives digital transformation by combining deep technical expertise with exceptional client engagement. Passionate about high-performance cultures, he leverages cloud and modern operating models to create low-friction, high-velocity environments that fuel business growth and empower people to thrive.

Producer

Marcel van der Burg

VP Global Marketing and producer of the Cloud Realities podcast, is a strategic marketing leader with 33+ years of experience. He drives global cloud marketing strategies, leveraging creativity, multi-channel expertise, and problem-solving to deliver impactful business growth in complex environments.

What is Cloud Realities?

Exploring the practical and exciting alternate realities that can be unleashed through cloud driven transformation and cloud native living and working.

Each episode, our hosts Dave, Esmee & Rob talk to Cloud leaders and practitioners to understand how previously untapped business value can be released, how to deal with the challenges and risks that come with bold ventures and how does human experience factor into all of this?

They cover Intelligent Industry, Customer Experience, Sustainability, AI, Data and Insight, Cyber, Cost, Leadership, Talent and, of course, Tech.

Together, Dave, Esmee & Rob have over 80 years of cloud and transformation experience and act as our guides though a new reality each week.

Web - https://www.capgemini.com/insights/research-library/cloud-realities-podcast/
Email - [e-mail]

CR096 TechnoVision 2025: Your gateway to cutting-edge innovation
[00:00:00] Rob, I'm going to stop you there. Lord of the Clouds is a 2024 trend. Oh, what? Sorry about that. It's called, it's called Cloud Encounters of the Third Kind. Right, okay, right. So what are the ones now then? Because I have obviously used the 2024 ones.
Welcome to Cloud Realities, an original podcast from Capgemini, and this week it is that time of the year and Capgemini's TechVision 2025 has dropped in the show. Today we're gonna be joined by some colleagues and we are gonna explore the many trends and stories that lie within. I'm Dave Chapman. I'm Esmee van de Giessen and I'm Rob Kernahan.
And for a real deep dive into this year's TechVision, I'm delighted to say we [00:01:00] are. Have got joining us, Ron Tolido. Ron is the CTO and Chief Innovation Officer For Insights and Data. We've got Robert, Dr. Bob, Engles, who's the head of the Global AI lab, and we've got Weiwei Feng, who is the global tech lead for AI and generative AI at Capgemini.
But before we get to our conversation, how are you guys doing? Are you? Well, I've got Robert and Ez with me right now. Oh, we're all, all good. All good. It it, well, the sun came out, didn't it? Right? So the sun is shining. Uh, winter is gone. Spring and summer are here. Uh, it does actually give you a bit more of a v boom in your life.
I think it was, I think it was TechVision dropping, wasn't it, Rob? That it was, it makes me, it really opened the Europe for you. A array of sunshine arriving on my internet connection. Beautiful. That and King's Day in the Netherlands. Ah, King's Day. Yes. Yeah. So tell us about King's Day es. Well, as it, what's with the word used to be Queen's Day, uh, when we had a queen, we're celebrating, uh, the birthday of our king.
I see. Um, usually the 27th, [00:02:00] but it's on Sunday and it never got celebrated on Sunday. So this time it was on Saturday, which was weird 'cause you, you know, you're so used to having it on the 27th. But, uh, it's been amazing and such great weather to have. Uh, it's huge. You know, we have thousands and thousands of people joining the cities to celebrate and, uh, a lot of artists.
Marcel sent me a little, um, yeah. Instagram. Yeah. Uh, video clip thing. Yeah. Of a, of a, of, I think it was like a violinist or somewhere like that. Playing a, a repeated loop. And I'd like to thank you for that, Marcel. 'cause that little repeated loop stayed in my head for the heritage style. Yeah. The but is is, there, are, are there any, uh, specific traditions on, uh, King's Day that you have to do, obviously dress in orange, but is there anything else?
For the audience, not so much other than, you know, go into the city. Oh yeah. And we have market, like the children are se selling all the stuff of whatever from home and then they sit outside and then everyone walks by and for like a euro you can buy whatever. Uh, I think that's one of the flea market. I think that's a huge, and we have Kings [00:03:00] Night as well.
Uh, it's the, the day before, the night before. And that's also a huge celebration and maybe an excuse to get drunk the day before. Ah, there you go. Most national holidays than put that excuse I for St. Patrick's Day. A classic around the world. People just go, it's a day of celebration with Guinness. There's nothing wrong with that.
Is there anyway, talking about days of celebration, TechVision 2025 is with us as. Just remind our listeners or the listeners who might be new to TechVision, what is it and where can you find it? Yeah, so TechVision serves as a comprehensive guide to emerging technology trends, and it's already been, you know, released quite some years already.
Uh, so providing insights into how these innovations can be leveraged for business success. It's updated annually to reflect the latest developments and it's tailored for various audiences. So the CIO CTOs business executives, but I think for everyone who's just interested in the world of tag. And where do you find such a thing?
Yeah, I [00:04:00] think it's best to just search whatever search engine you're using TechVision 2025. 'cause otherwise you have the problem that you're looking into later or trends before this year. So, uh, no, I mean, nobody could possibly make that mistake. No, you cannot imagine. But it happens, you know, the, say you would start doing a recording and somebody who was maybe doing some last minute research would, would search on TechVision and maybe start reading out the 20, 24 trends.
I can't imagine that that happens. Really. Can't. It'd just be, it'd just be an incredible scandal. It would be, I mean, absurd to think that that would happen, Robert, especially, uh. For somebody who's involved in the creation of the content. I know, I know who, who is that close to it to make such a, to make such a fundamental mistake.
I think where, where, but it's a basis thing, isn't it, David? It's a, like a calls into question, the capability of the individual. You know, at the core, it certainly their research and their attention to detail. No. And the preparation. Anyway, we're [00:05:00] gonna now throw to our conversation with Ron, Dr. Bob and Weiwei, where we go through TechVision 2025 in quite some detail and pick up some of the threads and, and the grit in the machine.
Hope you enjoy the conversation. And if you wanna catch up with the guys outside of that, they have their own show, which is called the Data Powered Innovation Jam, which you can find wherever you find your pods. So you can go over there and, um, and have a listen to their ongoing conversation. And interestingly, they'll also have a version of this episode with us on it, on their show in a few weeks time.
So let's go to our conversation now with Ron, Dr. Bob and Weiwei.
So Ron, good to see you. It has been a year, hasn't it? Indeed. Funny how time flies, you know? Yeah, man. So give, what's the big what? What have been the big headlines for you in the last year, and how have they gone into shaping this [00:06:00] year's TechVision? I, I guess it's been, uh, quite a shaky year so far, obviously.
And, and the fun thing is, uh, Dave, um, as you may know, TechVision, we release it at the beginning of every year, right? So our, our annual trend series, we release it in January, but already around May, June. So as we speak right now, almost June, we, we are actually, uh, preparing already for, for next year. So you try to look into the future.
Mm. And, and halfway 2024, we thought this might be a very unpredictable, shaky 2025 for all sorts of different, some obvious, some not so obvious reasons. Both in technology, cultural, geopolitical, society really, and, and then turned out to be pretty spot on in terms of our prediction that 2025 would be a year of what we call the pendulum swing, right?
You see some very wild swing movements, some, some very wild oscillating movements happening both in technology, but obviously also in society and in business, right? So I feel sort of, sort of. [00:07:00] Yeah, I guess we were kind of spot on with, with our predictions there and, and that feels not good because these are strange times, but, but anyway, sort of felt appropriate.
Well, we're gonna, we're gonna spend some time today, I think, sort of decomposing this year's techno vision. So for those that haven't read the actual structure. How TechVision functions. You just wanna set out the overall, the structure of the, of the piece of work. Yes. Let, let's do that. For those who don't know, TechVision, it consists every year, again of of 37 different trends, which seems like a lot 37 trends.
Some of them we update from last year because they're still very relevant. Then we get rid of some of them that we feel are a little bit, uh, you know, old by then, and, and then we always introduce a few new ones as well, but there are 37 different ones. But to make things more easy, we put them in so-called containers.
So these trends fits into a certain category. Of technology trends. So, so we have invisible infrastructure for, for infrastructure trends. We have applications unleashed [00:08:00] for trends and applications. We have thriving on data for anything, data analytics and ai. We have process on the fly, which all has to do with the notion of process automation.
Hmm. Uh, then we have a new experience, which is, well the word says it almost all, it's, it's about the user experience. And we have, we collaborate, which is really about collaboration and, and distributed and federated technologies. And there is the second one that we will not really dive into today, I guess, but that's called balance by design.
And these are more, I. Design principles about how you do things rather than the other six containers which contain, you know, true, true actual content of trends. So, so that's the way to look at it. Um, the, it's quite a, a bulky document, if you would long, like to read it from A to Z, but we actually say, well, you know, you just dive into a trend or a container that you sort of fancy or that, or that you don't know too much about.
Right? And, and you find out yourself in, in terms of does this trigger me? Does this give me new ideas? Does it confirm something? Can I use it as a checklist? There are all sorts [00:09:00] of different ways to use TechVision as a toolbox, uh, on a daily basis for it, let's say any innovation purposes. Yeah. Hear, hear for non-linearity of the big document.
That's what I'm saying. No, I am, uh, I am, I am. Very much up for that. Uh, now talking and being triggered. Robert's here. Hey. Hello. How you doing, Rob? Uh, it's nine o'clock on a Monday morning, David, so I may be slightly jaded. It's brutal, isn't it? It is. It's, I can't believe Marcel has yet again. I mean, who would schedule a podcast, a creative endeavor at nine o'clock Monday morning when you mind's supposed to be its most agile, so you can have the most effective conversation possible to excite the listener.
And Marcel does this to us, so apologies to all listeners. I think he's being hopeful. Rob that. What do you think? Hopefully, you know, usually we end up facing each other farther away in the day. So he might be just hopeful that the best is in the, in the morning. Oh, maybe this is be, maybe this is a new ritual that maybe this is the new normal from now on.
Very new for you, Rob. No, very. I'd be shocked if we ended up [00:10:00] there. I'm not gonna lie. You just stop talking about such shenanigans, plates. It's just not right. This lack of enthusiasm. It's painful. Yeah. I, we like to show up professional Ron. That's the way we roll. Indeed. That's the way we roll. We've also got with us where we're in Dr.
Bob, how are you doing guys? You good? Fine. Thank you. Good to be here. Yes. Good to see you, Weiwei. How are you doing? Yeah, I'm fine. Excited, uh, as well on Monday morning, I found out last Friday, so my whole week thinking about, oh shit, what should I talk about? I often have that problem. So what you're saying is Marcel not only schedule it at the worst possible time of the week, but he also forgot key people, uh, to invite them.
So, I mean, Mar these are all very good signs, uh, for, for a brilliant podcast. I, I can tell. Yeah, I can tell already. This prep we normally put into these things. Dr. Bob, how are you? It's not snowing outside your window. I think it's the first time we've done one of these where it's not been snowing. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, we, we call that [00:11:00] spring. Even in Norway, you get spring. It's a very short one, but you've got one, so now it's green right Then. So let's dig in. So, as Ron was saying, there are a number of different sections in TechVision, and what we're gonna try and do today is we're gonna go through each one.
Briefly give a bit of a synopsis on each one and then have a discussion about each section. And there are six separate sections. So kicking us off. Roberto Kernohan with Invisible Infrastructure. Robert, are you ready now Rob? I am. I know. Had to do a quick little bit of research this, so have you, are you up to speed?
I am, I am. David. I am I, I was there. You know, I was there for the initial launch of TechVision way back in the day. I did the you experience back then. Did you look like the version of you that's on your ID card? Yeah, the bit like a rabbit stuck in the headlights, not knowing anything that's going on.
Yeah. Yeah. Were we born yet? Yeah, I definitely wasn't Dr. Bob. I was about four jobs ago. Um, have you, [00:12:00] has everybody seen Rob's ID card? I think we should use Rob's ID out with this episode. Can we put it on LinkedIn? Yeah, I think that would, that would be helpful. So I still, I still, I joined, I joined this organization quite a while ago and I still have my original security pass photo, which is, uh, rather alarming.
Uh, and shows how badly I've aged. Uh, well I think we all have that problem, don't we? Yeah. Speak for yourself.
Alright, Robert. Invisible infrastructure. So David, uh, this is the fundamental concept of abstraction of compute. Mm, which is the ability to not have to focus on the plumbing and you can go and do some high value stuff instead. And underpinning invisible infrastructure is a number of themes that breaks down into five areas in the 2025 trends.
And the first one is cloud encounters of the third kind, which is starting to recognize the, the, uh, morphing of cloud into many [00:13:00] different things. So, um, a good example that we've talked about a lot. On, uh, the show is a very hot topic at the moment, is sovereign cloud, and that's an example of a variation that's occurring, but we see it right across.
So we see divergence in the way they're presenting themselves to the market, the way people are using it, the way people are thinking about it. So I think in this one, the way, uh, the thinking around how I use cloud compute is evolving, is quite important. Looking at, um, all that, um, protection as part of it.
Um, the next one is everything everywhere, all at once, which is basically the trend now, which is I could just get my compute wherever I am and it's access to the data and it's all connected. So no longer does location matter, it's just, you know, I can get to it. That last mile connectivity drive, the ability to access, um, is key and that's creating all sorts of new capabilities where I don't have to worry about location, I can just get my computers, I need it and access to my data, et cetera.
[00:14:00] Um, the next one is ops AI did it again. Uh, and this is about basically the, the massive drive for, uh, good automation in the platform, uh, in an intelligent way so that we're able to not have to worry about the plumbing or have to think about the, the toil. And we can just get on with the value creation.
So that's quite key. And we see a, a huge amount of sophistication rising in the market associated with this. So it, it continues. And in fact, I know, uh, um, your favorite Dave Agen as an example, agents being able to operate and act in higher order functions around that and such like is Sure. We'll come back to that, Rob, I'm sure we roll forward.
Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Um, the next one is simply the edge. So the ability to compute where you need it again. So that is, uh, we see a big rise in edge compute. We see that in various shapes and sizes. And again, going back to how the hyperscalers are presenting themselves to market. They all have a different edge strategy and how it plays out.
So we have lots of choice there, but I could compute near where I've [00:15:00] collected the data that's much more efficient and I ship the answer back as opposed to trying to centralize everything. So this rise of distributed compute is continuing to move on up. And the last one is, okay, compute with a q. Uh, and this is all about the rise of quantum and organic computing, which is the, the stray away from digital, which is quite exciting.
We've had a few episodes again on that, around the, the power of it and the massive parallelism and the ability to solve. Incredibly complicated problems, very, um, quickly, and we see the qubits rising in this area and we see people getting much better with error correction. So that, that basically is invisible infrastructure.
So those themes break it down, but you get the, I'll go back to the start, which is abstraction of complexity to allow me to get on with a higher order, high value things that I'm, uh, I'm concerned about. Well thanks for kicking us off, Rob. You made that look easy. I did, didn't I? If only unveil the curtain, the secrets will be revealed.
There'll be another edit of this show where it maybe didn't go as smoothly as we might have hoped. Well, we'll see. It will be a long outtake show that wouldn't it. [00:16:00] Exactly. So look, I think a pretty good summary, Ron, of the compute and infrastructural situation there where kinda I'm seeing geopolitical effects on the centralization of the cloud and organizations like the hyperscalers in particular, creating really strong responses to that and creating distributed cloud situation.
The. Bringing in a quantum to supplement digital platforms rather than replace digital platforms, I think is it's, it's creating an exciting future. Indeed and, and particularly the last one is, okay, compute is very interesting because you see revolution going on in the way we look at compute. Uh, used to be in terms of, okay, there there's more law, right?
So, so we'll have some more and more, but, but if you would say, we have more than more so, so meaning we're going to look at entirely different type of, of compute philosophies, even in architectures like, like the quantum, right, being much more organic rather than the zero and one, the, the life doesn't exist, [00:17:00] you know, it's not based on on zero and ones and, and you see some something there.
We feel that it's entirely different and, and obviously we're, we're still a little bit away from it, but, but there's something waiting there that, that is definitely, maybe we use the word too much, but would definitely change the game, right? Yeah. And would be revolutionary potentially. And, and I think there's that bit, uh, when we've discussed Quantum before, which is it will be digital and quantum.
I. Together. Course quantum computing does not replace digital 'cause. Ask a quantum computer to do two plus two. It's very inefficient, but ask it to solve the position of a molecule and it's incredibly efficient and it can solve all sorts of things for farming and whatnot else. So it's that, it's that fusion that will occur, which will be, um, quite key to get right.
The, the other aspect, and I think Ron, your point there, which is quantum really does feel like a next level technology coming along. It's, it's something that it do quite a lot and I'm slightly embarrassed by, which is the new thing is always the next big thing, blah, blah, blah, blah, [00:18:00] blah. Precisely. But I think this time around there are two things and a convergence element that make it almost unknowable.
Like the convergence of quantum and AI in the next five years or so, let's say it might be three years, it might be seven years, but it's, it is within the decade, those two things converging and creating like unknowable futures, isn't it? No def definitely. And, and, and what I also like, by the way, uh, when I listened to, to Rob in terms of the, the five trends and, and the name of the container being invisible infrastructure, and you see something happening there as well.
Hmm. The, the whole notion of invisibility in terms of it's just there and it actually disappears. I, I think we, we now see, and by the way, the pendulum swing aspect of it, uh, you know, it's overall theme for 25. It, it all goes, goes back and forth in, in very unexpected and, and, uh, you know, almost violent ways every now and then.
But, but here, the swing back from, yeah, I want it to be based on cloud technologies because that's clearly what we want nowadays, but maybe I want it on premise or at least be [00:19:00] on my sovereign grounds. I, I think that's, that's one of these very interesting things currently happening from invisible to, Hey, I actually want to see it and I want to know that it's on my premises.
Hmm, is, is a very interesting one. And then of course, everything everywhere, all at once connected. Uh, the, the notion of an infrastructure. So infrastructure, but not as we know it be because it's really more on the infrastructure. It's bringing all that data points and action going on at the same time together.
Um, we made that up all the way back to 2007, I think the notion of an invisible infrastructure and now we're 25 and it seems to be actually becoming very, very real. Mm. I find that fascinating on what is interesting, the theme back then, you know, we've seen it mature through what is essentially cloud compute and the direction of that.
So back then we used to fight the data center and now it's an awful lot easier, albeit the stat is still close to 80% of workloads still aren't on cloud compute for lots of reasons. That's right. But essentially there's still a massive battleground to go at with, um, the legacy technology to be able [00:20:00] to, you know, harness the types of things that we're talking.
Yeah. I wonder, Rob, if you've had a chance to look back at the trends in 2024? Uh, I did, Dave. Yeah, absolutely. And there's two, there's two variations. Yeah. So we've, we've, we've seen a shift there, but, uh, but yeah, I think the, the two new ones, the cloud encounter, that kind the way cloud is presenting itself differently and the everything everywhere has definitely evolved.
So the last sort of 12 months I've seen a, um, a big change. I, I, one of the observations I would make in, in the 24 trends, which I also managed to take a look at before we, uh, started recording, there was a big play in that on, uh, verticalized industry solutions. Yeah. I wonder what the big shift has been there, Ron.
There weren't, it wasn't so name checked in the 2025 trends, but it still exists as a, as a powerful part of the infrastructure, doesn't it? Oh, but, but, but, but very much so because I believe that that cloud is morphing into something. Um. Uh, different. And, and part of that, um, more of going [00:21:00] on is definitely morphing towards industry clouds.
So, so, and, and industry clouds in terms maybe of application or application services that are specific to a, to a industry and, and you simply use it and apply it as an infrastructural service, as is maybe out of the books, but now also moving of course to, to data clouds and even model clouds that are specific to a, they're an industry.
So I would say it's all very neatly contained in that, in that first new trend, cloud encounters of the third kind. Mm. And with third kind, we mean there's all sorts of different clouds there. It's, it's cloud Jim, but not as we know it. And, and uh, and it's certainly industry cloud part of that equation as well.
Well, in your description there, you mentioned. Some up the stack elements. So maybe that's a good way to bridge into applications unleashed. Well indeed. Why don't I pick it up? Please. Do you know, um, some people think you are an insights and data capgemini's, insights and data, global practice, you're CTO there, so probably all data and AI for you.
Actually not my background. Originally, I've been a software engineer by trade. Uh, [00:22:00] I was one of the very first c plus plus programmers actually in Europe. I'm not very proud of that nowadays, but still effect, oh, come on. That was a hardcore language. You could do horrible things in c plus plus that would go wrong fast.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and, and c plus plus was even improvement in terms of the horrible things you could do. Yeah, no, it was even more effective because object orientation on top of all the bad things you could do with the Cipro language. So yeah, no, definitely something to be, uh, extremely proud of.
Uh, but, but I also spent quite a lot of time in, in earlier parts of my career in the Unix system. Five girl for example. So I've always really felt. You know, on top of, of course feeling at home in data analytics and AI also felt very much at home in software engineering. So, so I like to pick up the applications unleashed, uh, unleashed, uh, uh, container.
It's actually there right from the beginning. So that, that's, if we look at, back at the original software, TechVision goes back to 2007 when I already had the privilege to work on this, right. Uh, with, uh, the grandfather of techno, uh, my, uh, [00:23:00] very iconic colleague and your iconic colleague, Pierre. And, and, and when we gave that name to, to that container.
Applications unleashed. We felt there's two different things to it because first of all, there's a whole new generation of application services. And nowadays, I would say also AI enabled and containing AI that are simply waiting, uh, to be unleashed. So, so that we can leverage them to the full extent. But also there's a notion of unleashing in terms of we want to liberate ourselves, uh, from the existing, uh, technology depth or if you like, applications depth or application sprawl.
We already discussed legacy also in the infrastructure. It's the same in applications, right? So, so we want to do all of these new things, but we have a growing legacy, both negative and and positive by the way. Um, we have that underneath. So, so that's a, a very interesting, currently going on in applications.
Um. There, there are of course, um, uh, five, uh, trends, um, in, in, uh, this container as well. Uh, one of them is already, uh, a classic there, which we call honey I [00:24:00] Shrunk the Applications, which is all about, um, shrinking the applications landscape. So it does include also sanitizing the applications landscape and get rid.
Of, of, of very infrastructure, heavy application services, for example. And replace them. Modernize them, for example, by, with, with microservices. Um, we have, uh, one that we call little Green app, which is particularly to the Dutch people, quite of a joke, a little green app. But this is also, this is all about creating application services that are not only effective, but also green and sustainable.
So, so you re-engineer them to be more sustainable, use less energy, maybe produce less waste in, uh, in the end. And, and we had a, uh, a trend last year, which is called Chat is the new super app, in which we said, of course, well, user interfaces of applications may not look anymore like they used to do because now we have front ends, large language model, generative AI based.
Conversational front ends. And that's actually the face of the application, potentially in the near future. Right. So we had that one [00:25:00] Chat is the new super app. And now, and now, uh, we have one that, that I think is, uh, already existing, but but extremely interesting. And that is what we call when code goes No.
And that is, is as in knowledge, uh, used to be called when code goes low. So this was about low and no code. Uh, but nowadays of course there's a lot of interest in using AI to, to sort of augment us and help us in, in coding. And by the way, when code goes, no, very difficult to pronounce. Um, we have some British guys here today, but you, you know this British comedian Michael McIntyre?
Oh yes. Yeah, yeah. Uh, my, my wife found out about him as well, and ever since then, every day she's playing the same clip, which is about silent letter day, if you've heard of it. The English language is, uh, is, is in a way, is pretty straightforward, but on the other hand has a lot of silent letters. So these are letters that are not pronounced.
So there are simply useless in the words, and for some reason, the British. Choose not to pronounce them. Yeah. We love it. We love it like that. It just adds an extra frisson of confusion. [00:26:00] Yeah. Yeah. But I mean knowledge, uh, if, if you would pronounce it like it's supposed to be, it would be kno ledge or something, right?
Yeah. Um, and, and so he actually, Michael McIntyre proposed, proposed a silent letter day. So, so we would've a day in the year and, and we would pronounce everything, uh, like we would, so, so this, this, uh, trend, when code goes no would actually then pronounce as Kono. Um, so, so, but it's interesting. We don't have that problem, by the way, in the Dutch language in which we simply pronounce these letters for some reason.
But whereas just simple people probably in, in terms of un unabashed pronunciation of letters. For the popularity of English. I think it's a cruel language to have to learn. Yes, yes. 'cause of all the things you said this even more like the very interesting, it's, it's like the line, all the faith he had had, had had no effect.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, and that is a valid English sentence, but if you're trying to learn that as a non-native speaker, that is a nightmare. But, but it, it is a big topic nowadays. If we talk [00:27:00] about trends with our clients in applications, uh, the topic that comes up most is, let's say AI enabled, uh, coding. And it's interesting, just last week we had Eric Schmidt, who is a former CEO of Google, right?
Mm-hmm. And he very recently said, uh, most programmers will be replaced by AI within a year or so. Oof. It's literally what he said. Although he prediction, he said, some human oversight will still be needed. Mm-hmm. Well, I would say, no freaking kidding, Eric. Human in the loop. And this guy, this guy actually has a background in software engineering.
He did contribute to Unix. So, so kudos for that. But he should know or know, sorry. He should know, uh, better. I think we should have the whole episode where we have to pronounce every letter. I feel, have to do this. It's very tempting. It's very, very tempting. Silent letter podcast. But one of the things you talk about there, and I've, we've, it's that thing about low code, right?
Never really, never really took off. And just as it might have been rising, then AI romped over the rail. You just squashed it. Yeah. And like it [00:28:00] was, it's now never gonna be a thing. You know? You know what, you know why I've got, I've got a, a guess at that. Go on then. Which is like low code made sense to technical people.
It made no sense to non-technical people. So you still have to engage, you still have to engage with a sort of a technical interface to be able to do low code stuff. So from a democratization point of view, yeah, it made it easier for trained programmers, but I don't think it made it any easier for the layman would be my, would be my, uh, take on that.
And whereas a, a gen AI interface makes it legitimately straightforward for the Yeah, for the novice, it's, it's breach the gap. I mean, the low code thing, if you could learn to engage with the interface, you could, you could describe things in, you know, in that high level mm, approach. But the, the, the shame is for what was just starting to slowly take off in the last 18 months has basically been destroyed by generative AI being the new interface into what is then writing very technical things.
So that whole build of a, a layer in the middle to interpret your language and down has been gsu. Next [00:29:00] I wonder, next I wonder if there's another, um, layer of traditional app erosion happening as a result of Gen ai. And Ron, I wonder if you looked at this, uh, when you were doing this year's work, which is a large number of business applications have traditionally had process built into them.
And actually the way that it broadly functioned from whether it made an organization more effective, is it locked in a process with the, with the support and structured data set and allowed consolidation to happen around that? I wonder if you've got a perspective on the impact gen AI is gonna have. And particularly agent AI is gonna have on process-based applications.
Well, I'm, I, I'm pretty sure we'll be back on, on process-based application soon be, because there's another container in TechVision, uh, which is called Process on the Fly. And, and it's very much all over what, what we would nowadays call agentic ai, by the way. Um, mm-hmm. So, so, so the interesting, fun thing, of course, is who, who owns that, that aspect, right?
If you're building applications, um, you're looking to [00:30:00] at generative AI to help you do things and, and it might change the way you look at applications already shrinking down applications, by the way, in microservices and, and, and, um, you know, cloud first. Um. API native type of applications. You, you see a lot of things happening there.
Um, and, and the notion of a process becomes much more a thing on the fly. It's something that you can configure almost at runtime, rather than something that is completely predefined and pre-designed into your code. So, so, so I think we, we see a lot of things, uh, changing there for, for software engineers, application builders, uh, and, and, uh, personally, by the way to, to get back at this discussion, uh, there's a lot of talk nowadays about vibe coding.
So, so this idea of Oh, vibe. Yeah. Vibe. Vibe. You're just in the vibe. And I use my natural language, which is. I, I think particularly useless really, uh, for, for expressing logic, code logic, because otherwise we've, we would've done it right from the start. But this is five coding, so I just use my natural language, I see what comes out of it, and then [00:31:00] I get into a, a nice chatty dialogue with my AI and, and then when the application seems to run pretty fine, I'll simply release it and use it.
Just go with the flow, you know, vibe a little bit, relax. Um, I, I'm not so sure if that actually will work. Um, I, I do believe, um, Eric Smith did, did. You know, he, he did allude to it. He said, yeah, we need some human oversight. Well, well, I believe that code is something so specific and, and so crucial to everything that we do.
Um, so, so if you do it for, for the local aquarium club and you build a, a web application, fine with that. But, but, but if you have an autonomous driving car and you're working on software for it, and you're like, yeah, let's go with the flow. Seems to be pretty much all right to me. What does a microsecond more or less, uh, really mean?
Okay. Uh, I, I think we're, we're talking something entirely different. There's a lot of software that we depend on, and I don't believe in that, that vibe. Style of, of just having a conversation with AI and create something, um, useful. Maybe I'm too much of a [00:32:00] software engineer for that to, to actually, uh, believe that, well, you know how the machine works.
I can sense that it's unnerving you. Well, yeah. Maybe we should know how the machine actually works. Or maybe I'm a bit old fashioned there. Um, well, I'm pretty sure I am, uh, have having the roots in software engineering, but, but I believe that if you build something and you don't know how it works anymore, you, you, you rather maybe the foundation Asimov, um, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You serious? I mean, there's a, there's a warning there. Well, but, but there are big machines there and, and, uh, they used to work and, and they were created by, let's say, scientific people that know, uh, how, how these things actually operated. But then years went by, years went by and, and people still rely on these machines and nobody has even the, the slightest clue how this thing actually works.
Do you think that's a generational thing though? Ron, oh, I hate to say that. I hate to say that. Uh, but, but if you're long enough in this business, obviously you start to see patterns repeat themselves, and then you become a little bit cynical about it in terms of, oh, well, are you now finding about, uh, about APIs and, and [00:33:00] standards, open standards for, for agents calling to each other and, and, you know, accessing legacy applications, for example, like, like MCP protocol, for example.
Uh, I'm like, yeah, that, that, that sounds like reinventing the wheel. And, and maybe I've seen it even a couple of times, um, in, in a, uh, in, in my professional career. But, but yeah, that, that's probably what you call, call a generational gap. But I wouldn't hate the idea of having a generation that simply does not know what's happening under the hood.
Frankly, I don't like the idea. It's the, it's the, with the vibe thing. It's the, to exactly your point is the maintainability. If you just vibe to code and it goes wrong and it's something that's foundational to use the, the word. Yeah. Uh, in, in the solution. Do we have the capability to fix it or understand it?
'cause it's that, it's that. And maybe there's a very, it's the morelock and the eloy. It's happening again. Let's bring in time machine as well. Let's see how, how many famous authors we can, yeah. Let's, yeah, let's, let's do, can I bring in a millennial perspective then? 'cause please. I really [00:34:00] don't care. Save us how it works or how it don't care how it works, as long as it just works.
And to be honest, you know, I, I've also had quite some conversations with the senior developers that are the only ones that still know how the spaghetti works. Uh, but only from a perspective, like, we're in, we're in deep trouble. If this person leaves or goes with retirement, that's the only moment that I think, oh, damn, I need their expertise on this.
But if, if, you know, if we can doubt that's a damning indictment in this, if we can take away that risk and that it, at least I have to be sure that it's, you know, that it's trustworthy, ethical, et cetera. How do you know that, how you know that Esme for the rest? That's a good question. How do you know that Thisme, how do you know you, you simply trust the system?
I think, well, it, it's, it's this classical generational thing. Computer says no. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. So then it's true. Yeah. So it's no, you see? Yeah. But, but, but also as me, if you drive a car every time you slam the brake, you want it to brake and somebody is actually taking care of these [00:35:00] brakes and actually ensures that it works every time.
Yeah. So you need somebody to be in the loop and under the hoot. I, I agree. Cannot be an AI there need someone in the loop. But if I look into the conversations that we've had previously on Quantum, et cetera, and actually we talked to Karo founder Pool, uh, from ServiceNow last week, and he actually said, we're already past this stage that we actually think.
We're in control and that, you know, it's, it's already done in the fact that AI is already taking over for us. I, I understand we're still in the midst of, we should be in control, but maybe it's already, you know, we're already past, we're already passed. We might already be past that part. Free of the foundation.
Exactly. Part free of a bit as most foundation. Yeah. It's a bit done. That point of view and we've done it to ourselves. We take all, all of the laws of the, uh, of this stuff and the commercial arms race just pushes right past it, doesn't it? Right. It's funny that somebody from ServiceNow will say that, by the way, Asay, we happen to have had a conversation with, uh, technical guy from, from ServiceNow as well.
And, and [00:36:00] actually they are champions in, in ha in being in control because they have all their guardrails, they have all their rule-based automation. Absolutely. They have their scripted bots. They understand what it takes to actually have a. Deterministic answer, uh, in, in a certain, you know, chain of activities, uh, in order to guarantee a, a, an outcome.
And now of course they add large language models to it, probabilistic engines that sort of might be right. Uh, but, but I think surface now, from their perspective, they're actually the champions of, uh, of regulators. Absolutely. Yeah. It's not on a product version, but more of we were, you know, in general thinking about in general.
In general, other products, uh, are taking over, but not ServiceNow. Yeah. Yeah. I see, I see. So, so this is it. We can just mark this date and time as the beginning of the end or the beginning of the, the chapter. That will be something dramatically different. I'd love to have the same conversation, conversation a year from now and see what this happens.
Dystopian futures are, I have a feeling we will be, however, a feeling we will be, um, unless, unless we've been replaced by ai, Dave. 'cause podcasting, AI podcasting is now rising as well, isn't it? So [00:37:00] we, we, we might not have much choice. We'll just be, uh, yeah. Moved aside. Yeah, we have AI versions of ourselves and they just knock this stuff out even faster and more ly than we do.
An AI that would read all the documents and repair itself properly. Exactly. Ron, up topic. Imagine you'd, you'd be able to ask it about 2025 trends there'd be no issue. It would match. That's straight away. Imagine That's the utopian view of the world. Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely something to say for it.
Talking of a utopia, uh, Dr. Bob, now, how does data support utopian technology? Yeah. Okay. Change of topic. Is that a big, is that a big, that was one hell of a pivot there, Dave. That's like a hand break turn 90 degrees. I love that one. Okay, good. I'll, I'll take that one. But we, we are actually, uh, always using musical teams as well, eh, so, um, I would say this thriving on data containers, all about the beat that drives our businesses.
[00:38:00] Uh, so, uh, um, it is 20, uh, 25 now. We are still using, uh, data a lot, and you need it more than ever. And I would say if your business was a great music track, data would be the drum and baseline. So that strong beating foundation that everything else could build on. Uh, you might not always notice it, but without it, the whole song falls apart.
And just like a good drum and bass maker, I would say spend hours of fine tuning, uh, those beats to sound perfect. Companies today need to treat the data with the same care, and it's not just about gathering the data, it's also about making it work, making it flow, and also using it to drive the whole business forward with rhythm and purpose.
I would say now this, this container has five trends as well of course, because we're not using even numbers with all. So there is actually two changes as well here. Uh, back to the 2024 version. We make two changes in the 2025 version [00:39:00] and we have all wrapped them both, I guess. So one is that the first, uh, trend was all about data sharing as caring and we actually added a kind of a parental advice now, but take care.
First, we, we were actually, uh, talking about, uh, in, in your supply chain, in your, in your businesses, you wanted to fuse data with suppliers, with external parties, with different organizational parts, uh, but also maybe with, with the whole world just to make things work better and, and integrate it better.
But with AI on the rise, you can't just throw data around without thinking. So data, safety, privacy, truth, there must haves now, and it's like checking sound levels before sending out a track, one room move, and the whole mix sounds bad, and that is one of the things you really need to take care about. So with the power to the people trend.
It's about making data open to all, and it's pushing it to where the business really happens. Mm mm [00:40:00] Data experts are harder to find. AI and smart tools are bringing a self-help option so you can, you can actually find stuff yourself. You should be able to gather your data yourself, even if you kind of a vibe.
Data usage, I would say, and it's like amusing making tools went mainstream. Suddenly everyone could make tracks from home. So that's trend stays. The third one. Uh, which was my AI generation in the 2024 version. It was really about, uh, these, these AI generations now using this AI to create stuff and create new types of data.
We have changed that one into AI meshed up. And you would love this one, Dave, because what is AI meshed up about? It's about AI solutions that aren't a one size fits all anymore. They're becoming a lively mix of systems working together. And what does that point do? Yeah, it's the agent approaches. Again, we're gonna try and unravel that for Robert when we get to, uh, where, where's section?
Yeah, yeah. We'll, we'll help him. We'll help him. We're gonna, we, we'll [00:41:00] lean in and see if we can crack it. I need, you know, like, uh, Dr. Seus Green Eggs and Ham. Can you write the, uh, guide to a genti in that poetic format, please. It's coming. It's coming. But, but in this AI meshed up, uh, trend, this, this linked AI helpers that create feedback loops.
And they're driving better work with that. But like mixing complex beats this. Freedom needs watching for ethics, fine tuning. It's very powerful, but you better know what you're doing. I would say the, the fourth trend that we have is net zero data. We had that one last year as well. And it's, this, it is as relevant as ever, I would say.
Being green isn't just for the planet, it's also for your data. Data helps to reach your, uh, se serial harm goals. But, but the data itself needs to be green as well. And so it goes both ways. So firm, you need the skills in your firms to measure and cut, uh, these harm levels. And it's also time to get smarter about what data is needed and, and fight data waste.[00:42:00]
The data graveyards are just growing for every day and just like a tight beat that does more with less big data isn't always better data. Hmm. So Dr. Bob, the big question I generally have when we talk about data on cloud realities is how to unlock it. So, you know, like generation after generation of new data technologies have come along and it's always founded on the issue that organizations don't know what they have.
They haven't got a cataloged, there's no structure, and therefore they find it hard to unlock the power that they have there. Are we finally past that point of needing to do all of that and we've got the tools that can just interrogate what we have and make sense of it? Or is there still work to do to unlock your data?
So that is the data equivalent of, uh, vibe coding, I guess that you're referring to Vibe data. Yeah, that sounds good. Yeah. So, yeah. Well, in a, in a way, I mean there there's two aspects to [00:43:00] that. We, we have been doing that, you remember Big Query and so on, all these approaches with data lake houses and so on, right, exactly.
Yes. It was already, I mean, that was the Nirvana for a while, wasn't it? Like, exactly. On the lake. It'd be fine. Yeah. And what do you see now? I mean, what The interesting thing, what you observe in, in several use cases and applications of, of, uh, AI at the moment, is that as soon as you start to do stuff in larger contexts, you see that this knowledge about the data and then the, the meta layer, the meta information is needed.
And, and they're building things. So for example, the codes translation, uh, uh, cases of large compute stacks. What do they do? They abstract it into graph knowledge. They make a meta layer around it that describes the whole stack, the data, the functions, the classes that they use, so that they can actually use that in the translation and keep the context.
Context. And this context is also in, in all your data applications. If you throw everything on a single heap, it'll be very, very important to know what's in [00:44:00] there still, also in the future. And these, these technologies can help us in different ways. I'm, I'm sure, but you need to keep that meta level somewhere.
And, and these, these models don't have it in them yet. They're not abstracting. And yet again, I, I think we, we are facing the same type of dilemma, right? In terms of, it seems so easy now to talk to my data because that's literally what some providers are, are actually suggesting I can talk to my data, you know, I, I just open up my data sources and I'll get something out of it.
And, and again, you, you could say, I, I getting in this completely relaxed mode in terms of I use natural language and I, I'll get out of it what I want and I trust that. Versus I, I understand the data, I understand the sources, I understand their, their qualities, some of them high or low. I, I appreciate that.
I, I master that I, I see through that and, and that makes me trust or trust less, um, whatever I get out of that data. And, and I think we're, we're sort of at the, the same level there. Uh, currently, uh, Roberts, it's, it's, um, it's, it's really a matter of a balance [00:45:00] act currently in, in terms of, uh, it's so much easier now to get access to data, but also probably much easier to get deceived by it and, and making some wrong decisions because it looks so good and it looks so thorough and it looks so complete.
And there is another aspect to it. I mean, uh, the, the, the very, uh, observative, uh, listeners have heard that they only had four trends yet. So there is a fifth trend called the thing with data. And, uh, this, this thing with data is really about everything that is running on the edge, that turn plain things into smart assets.
So that is really this, this data at the edge and what can you do with it? We've speak, spoken about it before. Uh, this trend is also about that things are, this, this whole web of things, uh, is, is changing gears. It's going faster and faster and we need to get a, a much better compute on the edge, like we said before, to actually transform that data into objects that are more aggregated and that are more, uh, [00:46:00] pre, yeah, how do you say it?
Pre-processed maybe even, and shared. But also that throwing just that in the, into the, in the, um, in the equation needs much more, um. Yeah, knowledge about what it is that you get into your ecosystem. So you throw something that is pre possessed in your ecosystem and you're running it, it, it needs to come with some kind of metadata.
You cannot just expect that it, it, it'll work by itself and magically fits together. So there is definitely, uh, work ahead, uh, on all things data and, and I don't really think, and don't see that data is going to be less important. And then, I mean, at the same time you see that there are so much data created now that is actually.
Not having a good link to reality. Uh, that is probably also data that can actually tructure systems and your, your, your supply chains and your processes and everything. So it, it can also be a dangerous thing that's going on now with all this data generation [00:47:00] and, and just sharing that on the internet. E everybody wants to declare themselves, uh, a data, data power these days, right?
Or wants to thrive on data. I actually read about, uh, SAP, which I consider quite a process company because they have process in their DNA in their veins and they actually declare themselves. We are now Data Central Company. And unlike SAP, really you, you are, you know, I thought, I thought there was some process involved there.
And, and by the way, that, that neatly completely coincidentally brings us to, to the next container as well, which is called, uh, process on the Fly. And I've always seen it, um, coming from, from the techno Vision core, the foundations I've always seen. Thriving on data and process on the fly as some sort of a digital spine.
So, so, so at the foundation you have applications and infrastructure that, that make things work and, and, and tick. And then in the middle, you, you have the stuff that dreams are made of, right? That, that sort of provides the, the new digital capabilities. And we discuss data and ai and obviously it's everywhere.
Uh, but, but for a long [00:48:00] time, uh, it's, it's twin sister process on the fly, which is all about process automation. It was sort of underestimated. And that is not so much the case nowadays anymore because a lot of people would argue that, um, a lot of people would argue that, that talking about SAP process company, but well, maybe the future of agentic ai, which also, to your point, Dave seems to be so much more about, about process actually than, than.
Intelligence, if you like, or maybe the combination of it, uh, seems to be more and more relevant and that, and that brings us, uh, I think, uh, to this container. And, uh, we have nobody less than way, way thing to command. A bit more on the, on the process, on the fly container.
Yes. So this container have a, if you look at, there's keyword, two keywords, process on flight. But if you [00:49:00] look at, uh, process, you, you can actually treat everything process. It's connected human data and the external system operate machine could be a process or HR hire process. The organization, how it work, the electricity distribution on fly means.
Depend on the previous condition, and it dynamically wrote into the next process, not the sequentially, but if you look at uh uh, RPA, they actually embedding some process on flight. Then you think about the, what's the different? Because if you look at the RPA, it's because the human and the, uh, computer can't communicate fluently.
So they need to hardly translate some condition. Computer can understand. Then they can rotate based on those conditions. The things they counter rotate. It's human decided. I look at what I have, I [00:50:00] decide what the next process I will run. So that's how it's running today. Then with AI agen, you start to replace human this process because you can understand natural language or you, you also can translate a condition to be more.
More sophisticated than just hardcoded condition. That's what the Argent AI come into the place. We rep replace some part of human process, uh, to the, to the automation. But if you look at all this argent AI powered by the function, calling all the different tools with MCP and with, uh, eight way agent to agent, you can see we have one trend called you can't, you can't touch it.
It's because a lot of service is are displayed by third party. Your job is put them together. And this micro, another trend is microservice magic. I think microservice make it [00:51:00] MMCP, uh, model, context, protocol, and a way make it much more easier to integrate third parties, uh, tools. Third party open source tools ever can be dynamic, integrate.
And easily change because this word is not static. It's changing every day. You could change the database. You need to change the, change the tools. You could change your process. You need, uh, automatically shift around. However, with all this in the process, we can't leave the human. We can't say we completely replace the human with agent.
That's why human should be in the loop. Our third trend is, uh, controlled human. So humans in the central, it's not means human is, uh, how to say human, make a decision. Ate. I think it means human is in this key decision position. It could be a manager, it's a gen [00:52:00] agent, but human, it's inside in this key decision making process.
But automation is not stay in this level. If you think about, uh, currently large language model, large function model, mimic human, those tasks are roughly easy to decide it. If I make the, if income is asked me about financial data, I know that I need retrieving from, uh, SQL. If, uh, if other que queries I might from other database, I might how to do this some, it's roughly easy.
Next level will be much more difficult. Human can't do it. So as large language manager can't do it. If you think about, uh, how the process on the process of like robotic, how it work, uh, manufacturing, how to optimize that process, human really can't do this comprehensive optimization. Then the next trend is whole [00:53:00] lot fusion.
We start to fusion this, um, uh, digital twins to collect all the data for current stage. We create virtual twin to simulate, simulate all this process. With this tool in place, we actually can use, um, uh, reinforcement learning like human play games. Try to find the best optimized way to optimize the action for the next stage stage.
Those were also put in place. Not even we can achieve it. Then everything put together it's autonomous enterprise, but that's not enough. If you think you put everything in place, everything seems to work fine. Uh, we lack one really key, key things to think about how you manage this. As a tools, you, you need to manage the tools, how it change.
As agent, you need to manage the agent. How it change as a team working together [00:54:00] with human agent, you need to manage this contract between the communication and as the performance. You need to manage how the performance really connect with business KPIs back to how each tools agent working on this process to achieve that.
And you can't forget, uh, cost sustainability and most key factor is you can't forget the time because everything is changed. So you need to manage everything together with the change. So that's, uh, our last trend, autonomous enterprise. So there's a lot in that. Yeah, I think it's fair to say. Thanks so much.
And by now, wait, wait. I, I think we can conclude that process on the fly is no longer that completely unknown container, almost like a silent letter. We have a silent container and, and nobody actually appreciate it or understood it. And I think nowadays, uh, we can safely say that's no longer the case. I mean, it seems to me [00:55:00] like the world of process and the way that we handled process in compute is about to be turned completely on its head, isn't it?
Um, we used to have layered architectures with, with structured data and fairly hard coded process for want of a better expression, or at least indeed, at least, at least firmly set out process that then everybody converged around. It feels like that the need to do that is disappearing, isn't it? And, and it's just a matter of understanding how an organization can cope with dynamic process.
Exactly process on the fly, which was the initial vision of it. And, and maybe at 2007 we were a little bit too early maybe with anticipating that, but it's definitely happening nowadays. I, I do think we need a different approach, by the way, indeed, you, you need to look at process, something that you can actually configure and, and tailor and improve on the fly and, and, and AI augmented as well at the same time talking about repeating patterns.
Actually, just a few days ago, I, I saw somebody with, [00:56:00] with, you know, quite, quite esteemed in the, in the professional community, said, you know, with, with agents and now taking care of process automation, the way you should do it is. Look at processes and see what is human that can be automated. Literally what he said.
And I'm like, yeah, that, that sounds like 1965 or something. Uh, when, when we looked at the same way as, as, you know, using what we, at that time called, by the way, the profession we called automation, not it or anything, or digital transformation, we said, well, we're in the business of automation, so we're looking at manual process to see the human part of it and try to automate that.
And, uh, frankly, uh, sometimes we have the feeling that we're reinventing that brilliant idea nowadays as well. With agent AI coming up as such a powerful force in, in the whole, let's say, process realm. Well, sometimes it takes technology a little bit of time to catch up to an idea, and then it's, then there's an adoption lag between the technology innovating to the right point, and then organizationally as catching up to it [00:57:00] Now in cloud realities.
At the beginning of every show, Rob's generally confused about something indeed, and we try indeed to indeed pick it for him. Now, one of the ongoing confusions for Rob, um, and where, where you might be able to help Rob with this is the difference between RPA and Agen AI when it comes to process automation.
So is, is there any chance you can try and un unpick it for Robert so he can get his head around it? Uh, I will try, but, uh, I don't think, I think it's, uh, for the same problem you're solving different way. Then of course Gentech, it's more dynamic and, uh, uh, RPA, it's more like hardcoded, like I said, but, uh, it, I really don't think you replace one by another or you must be binary truth, because in this process, some process, some node.
We really need to be more deterministic than dynamic. For example, if I say [00:58:00] I, I have meant a fly, uh, air fly, uh, uh, airly company, they ask me can I use large language model to, uh, dynamic scheduling flight. I said, no, no, no, you can't do that. Mm-hmm. That's need, that's need deterministic. We make sure that disaster not happen.
Then the second, make sure that we try to be optimized. So, so in the same, same fashion in certain process, we really need hard coded from this to another. Mm-hmm. In certain node of the process we can replace by a gentech. Does that helped Rob? Uh, Dave, I'm gonna go on strike for podcasting with you. That's what I'm gonna do.
You don't have to feel bang out. I, I'm a project Marcel, I'm officially in protest. I'm lodging a, a formal complaint. Are you refusing to engage in the, we'll, we'll put that on LinkedIn. Uh, if you, if you're okay with that. Yeah. Just, just as an FYI for the entire community. He's only saying this to deflect.
[00:59:00] He's trying to deflect Course I'm deflecting Dave, because you keep bringing this I'm still confused, right? Still confused. Exactly. I mean, it speaks for itself, doesn't it? Free podcasts need a red thread. So Yeah, that's, there you go. There you go. This continuous, yeah. No, but it is, it is a very good point.
Which is the, the high agency agentic is going to shift the dial quite a lot. But to your point, Dave, um. The, the ability for us to understand its potential, the ability for the technology to be there, and then the adoption lag. We're gonna see that before it really properly kicks in. But yeah, you can see, uh, of, I mean we discussed it at Google next with the, the, the maturity of the technology, the A two A protocol and things like this starting to rise, where we're starting to see more open standards about how these things can interact, come together.
And then Carol from, um, the podcast we did recently around the. Actually it's not agent to agent as much as it might be a blur of functionality and then a intra or into type communication like a mesh. A mes. Really? [01:00:00] Yeah. A mesh. Yeah. Yeah. And that is our philosophy of a mesh, which, which contains of many different components, sort of opportunistically working together to achieve a certain objective.
And some of these elements would be very, uh, let's say, uh, deterministic and based on, on plain well defined logic with a guaranteed outcome. And others would be more vibing with the flow. But, but I'm not sure if it'll have a vibing enterprise anytime soon. I'm not sure if I was entering into a, a very significant process that might affect me as a human or my family's outcome or something, and to know that it had been vibed through that might not.
That's for sure. Confidence. Last generation thinking, Robin. Yeah, exactly. But I always confuse with the, I always thinking about it, why we always mimic robot, uh, agent with human capability and we thought. That is. That is because we are limited. I was thinking in the future I could just explore all the available tools and dynamic compose.
The things I [01:01:00] can do instead of every agent have its capability. I don't know how it's affect performance, but we are in this way. Mindset is we always need to mimic human and we didn't think about in this process a lot of things can cut off just because we don't need to mimic human. Hmm. Exactly. And RPA, by the way, is also mimicking humans, uh, for your information.
Uh, Rob, uh, RPA is actually looking at, at human work, but it's human labor behind screens and, and people using different applications and cutting and pasting information and looking up things. And then making a decision is actually you looking at the human activity. And then we're trying to mimic that.
So, which is a nice but, but actually simple and naive process. And, and if you become more AI native, I know of, of countries even be wanting to become an AI native country or an AI native government, you, you start, you start from, from thinking, from, from the intelligence perspective, and, and then you create your services on top of it, which is very different.[01:02:00]
And one of the things that humans do and have always done is anthrop. It's easy for me to say anthropomorphize things, you know? Yeah. We imbue things with human traits. We try to understand the world around us in terms of the things that we already understand, um, precisely. So, uh, I think. Your point Weiwei is, is, is spot on.
Like why should these agents have human characteristics? We do that probably to make ourselves comfortable as as humans, right? But it'll be when agents are building agents that we probably really start to see what these things are capable of. Mm-hmm. Or agents collaborating with agents for that matter.
Uh, Dave, and, and again, purely coincidentally, that that brings us on the topic of the, of the next container, which is called we Collaborate. And, and, uh, as I said, we, we have invisible infrastructure and applications as, as the foundation to any, let's say IT or digital landscape. We, we have this, this, these, these twins of, uh, of, of thriving on data and process on the [01:03:00] fly.
Now, on top of that, uh, we, we work together and it's not only people by the way working together, but maybe also people and AI agents working together or even maybe, uh, a collaborative network of AI agents, uh, achieving something. So this is, this is the subject matter of, uh, we collaborate and I'm pretty sure, Dave, you have something to say about that.
I've got a few things. I've got, I've got five things, in fact. So, yeah. So we collaborate. This is, this is the subject of the, the expanding nature and possibilities of collaboration from organizations moving from rigid hierarchies to different ways of working and dynamic reconfiguration. There's elements around hybrid work and the individual and what the individual can do, um, both themselves with new collaboration technologies, but also interacting with artificial intelligence and what, and what that layer of hybrid work begins to look like.
Mm-hmm. So let's just run through a few of the, of the trends that are picked out in this space. The first thing is decentralized identity. So how in a world [01:04:00] of, of these ultra complex interactions and multiple layers of systems do you retain a secure and, uh, understood and sovereign presence within that, within that world?
The second, we've already touched on this. Uh, it's bubbled to the top in a number of different areas and it's, it's almost certain to define the air ahead, I think, which is a genta alliance. So, um, what I, what I find very, very interesting about it is the thing we just touched on there at the end of way, ways, section, which is the notion of agents working with agents and dynamically reconfiguring processes both int inter-organization but also inter-organization.
Like what that, what that's going to do with things like supply chains and, and reinvention of what businesses do is going to be like fascinating to watch. The notion of human in the loop re remains important there. At least we think it does, and we at least we think we have the [01:05:00] lean in on that situation.
Uh, who knows though maybe, maybe to ER's point earlier on, the time might have already passed this, us humans haven't noticed it. Then we have, um, synergy and synergy squared, I think is the, is the section. Now, this is about modern ways of working. So Covid obviously opened up this notion of hybrid work. Um, most organizations in the world of Covid put in new platforms that allowed very real time collaboration that's maturing now, you know, we're seeing organizations doing different things with hybrid working and remote working, but the possibility remains the same.
You can pretty much work from anywhere and be connected from anywhere equally. AI copilots are being built into that experience. So now it's not just you, but it's, it's you, you know, kind of exponentially empowered by copilot, supporting those conversations, noting those conversations, driving action off the back.
And eventually, of course, that will be action orientation. [01:06:00] You'll be able to ask agents to do things on your behalf and, uh, you know, it will be genuinely a human AI hybrid situation. We've covered this a little bit and Ron certainly talks about it, but mesh business, like adaptive businesses, both in terms of how an organization within its own right operates.
Um, at the moment we are, we are. We really, we understand business in terms of hierarchical structure, which effectively came from military way of structuring ourselves as human beings. Well, actually, businesses don't have to be organized like that. Startups often and not organized like that, they're much more fluid with individuals having multiple different roles.
Um, you don't have to be boxed into just one particular role, particularly if AI is supporting everything you do. You're almost an expert in everything as long as you can leverage it correctly, um, and then expand that out to the business itself. So how might a business become much more of an adaptive creature [01:07:00] and then how that works in ecosystem with other businesses?
And if you then bring, you know, agent to agent Alliance into the middle of that, and Rob talked about agent to agent protocol, you've got businesses that will potentially overlap and then, and then break apart again, and then overlap and break apart again as various different responses to what's going on in the market, uh, are required.
And then finally, um, the economy of things and what this means in terms of the creation of new opportunity. So Ron, what do you think about all that? This, this to me feels like we might see businesses completely change shape in future. I. And, and of course we, we said that in the past, uh, this changes everything and, and we use a disruptive word of course, more than once in, in, in a few years back.
Uh, but I do guess that there's something happening here, which I find fascinating and particularly the mesh. So I like this notion of your business is a mesh, not to be pronounced in the wrong way, by the way. [01:08:00] Um, not entirely sure what silent letters there, but, but anyway, your, your business is a mesh. And, and, and the thing there is, is, of course, it comes from, from network meshes, right?
So, so it actually comes from, I. Um, very much a technology driven type of environment. And later on we got the application meshes. So say we got the service mesh. Mm-hmm. Then of course, us data people, we like to talk about data mesh these days quite a lot. So, so data is not on one central place owned by central people, and you have to pass them, but actually it's everywhere and it's connected in all sorts of different opportunistic, difficult to predict ways and, and of course not.
And, and then with AI happening the same and, and, and as a result in the end, the way we look at business, both processes, but also doing business in general, uh, turns out to be a bit of a, uh, a mesh as well. Well, the, the, what it seems to me is when, when, again, when tech organizations have called this sort of thing out in the past, the, the, the technology may or may not have been there, and I would probably argue that [01:09:00] it's sort of been there ish for the last.
Few years, but it's really only the last 18 months or so that this technology is emergent in a way that would really allow this to happen. Um, the thing I think that will get in the way of it again this time around is a human adoption lag. So it's one thing to say, I think, to envision a thing where organizations become kind of much more organism like and can move around and, and reshape themselves.
It's quite something else to then try and. Execute that in the real world. I, I, I definitely believe that the trend is right in the sense of all of the possibilities are gonna be there, but I wonder what the, um, what the adoption lag is gonna look like and, and when will it actually happen. I, I can vividly remember a keynote, uh, uh, speech I did a year ago or something for a Dutch governmental organization, which shall not be named over here.
Uh, but, but I actually was talking about a, uh, a lights out version of their organization to come in a few years. I said, [01:10:00] imagine, you know, we, we just state our objectives and, and an agent driven mesh of, of components will do it for us, and we'll dynamically optimize the results so that the citizens of this country are served at, at the highest level and, and in a very effective way because budgets and everything, it's under pressure.
And I was doing this very enthusiastic keynote speech to a room full of people. That we're actually doing these, these processes as we speak, and we're collaborating in the ways that, that they're used to. So, so there was a, I would say, at best lukewarm, uh, response in the room. And, uh, it, it was one of my worst speeches in years.
And I did realize we need to, you know, we need to realize we're dealing here with people and, and, and, yeah. And they have their place in the process. They have their place in reaching objectives. They have a place in working together as human beings, augmented and enabled by technology maybe. But one of the things that hierarchy helps an organization do is get everybody clear on what they need to do.
Sure. You know, and then you can put process across the top of [01:11:00] hierarchy. If you actually zoom back though to smaller scale organizations, they are much more organism like to start with, you know, founded organizations and scale up organizations and things like that. And it's only when organizations get to a certain size that they become more difficult to administer.
Now I, I do think that. Agents then, and that being a hybrid human AI ship is inevitably going to create a new type of organizational share. Yeah. So what are the things that agents can do? Is one of the biggest issues with operating models that grow is the complexity of, uh, communication pathways. Mm-hmm.
And that's where divisions get formed and hierarchies have to be installed because that's how you need to manage. Traditionally, the best way to manage, uh, overload on communication agents can dramatically reduce the amount of people required within an environment to be able to achieve an outcome that fundamentally can now reduce communication burden and allows a flatter structure to sustain for much [01:12:00] longer.
So through that, I'm hoping that, um, operating models, uh, can be, um, quite different based on an agentic future because you can remove the burden that is the communication issue. Let, let's not forget about the leaders. I think I, I truly believe if we have leaders in the room that are able, you know, to grow their own consciousness, to handle that type of complexity, but also to get away from their ego and get into ego, you know, that you're removed from the role that you actually have, but you're becoming part of maybe holacracy.
'cause that's actually what, uh, those are types of organizations you're talking about. Fluid, organic. Uh, that, that's I think is the biggest challenge of a lot of companies to get away from that ego state, um, to be able to comprehend the complexity and oral, I don't know if it's the complexity, but the level that we're now talking about with in the, in the world of quantum, I mean, we should really ask Dave about that ego question and the how to deal with a massive ego.
So, uh, Dave, you got any? Come on, on M's. Point. [01:13:00] It's a, it's a wrestle Rob, quite honestly, a daily challenge. It's a lifetime burden. But he will not bother you with Dad, Rob, because that's way too complex. Exactly. Rob, I I love that one. By the way, Esme from Ego Toco. I'm pretty sure you, you must have been using it before, but that could have been a Technovation trend name, you know, from ego to, uh, from ego.
Toco is, uh, absolutely, uh, a very good one. I see that so. Talking about, uh, Esmee van de Giessen, by the way, such a privilege to pronounce this name in proper Dutch Esme van. That's the way to pronounce it. I was suggesting we mess up names on this podcast. Not at all. Not at all. It would be horrible, almost as horrible as silent letter as it would be if you would properly pronounce the G in our language.
So, so I will not bother you with that. If, if you all just got into the mode of calling yourselves like Fred Smith or Fred know Susan Howard, it'd be dead easy. Come on all your names, please. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, let, let, let's [01:14:00] not get into that. But in, in, in instead, let's go into, uh, the final container of our discussion, which is called New Experience.
And it's all about what? In the end matters the most and it is how we experience, uh, technology to help us and how it communicates with us. And there's certainly a lot happening there. And, uh, we have, uh, nobody less than Esme to, uh, to, uh, introduce us to this container. Yeah, so I'm very excited about this.
Uh, 'cause we've entered a new era, right? Where technology adapts to whoever is on the other side. Could be a customer, an employee, a user, or even an algorithm these days. So interactions feel seamless and intuitive. At least that's what we're striving for, making businesses faster, smarter and more human in how they connect.
So we see these five trends that we are gonna dive into phase two. Interface. So user interfaces, and I think I've been struggling with this and still, why are we still typing? That's weird, right? Why are we still using a mouse and a keyboard? That's still, maybe, that's also one of my frustrations, but I think that's [01:15:00] still, uh, quite a question, uh, to, to answer I think.
Uh, but they are becoming more human-like, so fostering intuitive and uh, empathetic interactions. I think we've already discussed this as well. I just ask a chat. Whatever. And, and, and you will be provided with, uh, with information and apps these days or maybe in a year. Do they even exist at all? Uh, so AI driven agents now converts, collaborate, and connect with users transforming complex experiences into seamless human-centric engagements.
Feels like a long shot from today to be honest, but that's where we're heading towards. Second trends. You are something spatial. 3D technologies, the convergence of digital and physical realms through spatial computing, digital twins, uh, revolutionizing user experiences. So these innovations enable immersive context aware interactions across various sectors from healthcare to smart cities.
And I think these are also things that we see a lot during all the events throughout the year. So much interactions. And actually we saw [01:16:00] flying car also, uh, I dunno if that's really spatial, but it, it felt quite spatial when, uh, Marcel showed a video of that. 'cause it's still one of Dave's biggest frustrations.
So maybe, uh, the flying card, you, are you buying it though? I thought it was, maybe it's a bit fake, but Okay. I, I, yeah. I, I, I don't see any real evidence of it yet. Esme, I, I, the, it's my datum. Ron in terms of whether we are really progressing as a society. We were sold the notion of flying cars quite some time ago.
And have you seen the ridiculous efforts at flying cars that tech companies are doing today? If you took a helicopter and try and made a worse version of a helicopter, that's what their version, that's what they're Right, that's, that's what they can come up with. Rubish. Yeah. Absolute rubbish. Although if you actually think about it, a flying car, actually the helicopter does exactly what the flying car wants you to do.
A car. I think you're the car though. But if, if you're flying from point to point, why do you need to drive? You just point to point it. Because you might have to, you know, last mile stuff, isn't it? [01:17:00] Yeah, I mean, you, I mean that's for, yeah. Let's go on to the third one. I can sense there's an ocean of her here somewhere about shoulda phrase.
Yeah, it's more, okay. The third, uh, the third trend Internet of Twins. So digital twins, virtual replicas of physical assets are becoming integral in simulating monitoring and optimizing processes in real time. And this trends obviously, we've already discussed as well in processes. This trend enhances decision making, efficiency and sustainability across industries, uh, making our life a lot easier.
And I think this is also a topic that we see a lot in customer conversations these days. It wasn't, you know, like two, three years ago, digital twin ha, what is that? And I think we're talking about that commonly every day. So I think that's good. Fourth trend I feel for you, and this is something that I'm very curious about.
When you look into the marketing sphere, as well as technology is increasingly capable of recognizing and responding to human emotions by integrating [01:18:00] emotional intelligence into ai, businesses can create more personalized and empathetic user experience in strengthening customer relationships. And this is something I'm very curious and I want to tap into because at what point is this going to be manipulation or not?
Or isn't marketing always manipulation? That's maybe even a bigger question. Uh, but I think that's, you know, that's, if it's really becoming ultra personalization, tapping into social and emotional states of a human being, you know, who's checking that? So if we're talking about these hyper-personalization experiences, uh, so they're creating in the moment in an emotional state, and it even knows you better than you know yourself.
You know, it already checks my app, what time of day if the week it is or month it is. Or maybe you even see some other patterns that could be tricky, uh, or actually heard about a conversation that you had with your spouse or with your colleagues, whatever. You know, you, and then it actually taps into your most sensitive day of time and then [01:19:00] comes up with that.
Mm-hmm. Ad hits you when you're at your weakest. Yeah. It's how they're gonna take over. But it's an interesting point around, um, uh, the ability to have a conversation with an AI and have a, a dialogue and then it kind of remembers and you can go back to it and that that's been a big shift for you're able to muse through an idea to maybe help you get on your way again.
But what I like about it is the AI starting to come and prompt you to say, you're normally not very good at this. So I've done done it for you. Don't forget to ring Dave at three o'clock type thing. Yeah. It's that which is, uh, gonna change things a bit. Changing the experience. Yeah. I think it also taps into the, the, the fifth and, uh, and final trends.
No experience. Uh, the aim is to make technology interaction so seamlessly that they become virtually invisible by minimizing user effort and streamlining well, just about everything. Uh, that's the aim or the, the, the higher cost. Is it? I'm not sure I really like what YY said. Maybe it's gonna help us be more human, you know, to not mimic what we do, but [01:20:00] actually help us become more human as we are.
Maybe more connected to nature even, or, I don't know what way we're headed to, uh, but I think it's, it's far beyond that we can ever imagine. I think the, uh, it's, it's, it's the co culmination of everything, isn't it? We are fundamentally technology trying to change our experiences as humans, whether that be radically more efficient or more immersive, or more enjoyable.
That's the, that's the game isn't, but those are our business outcomes. Yeah. They're making us more productive, more efficient, more, you know what I mean? But is it making us more human films and deto music and all that sort of stuff, and just a, a, a, an easier way of life, or a more fun way of life. It doesn't be a human interface though, does it?
It doesn't need to be a human uhlike interface of, as you suggested this May. So we're humans, and whether I suggested as well, it makes us more human, but also if we communicate and, and being interfaced with something which is decisively not, uh, human. We already discussed the anthropomorphism, uh, Dave.
Mm-hmm. Uh, there's some [01:21:00] sided letters there, by the way, anthropomorphism. It's a tricky one. But, but this, this tendency that we sometimes have to completely try to. Duplicate or, or, or copy. Um, what we are as human, um, as, as humans, uh, sort of brings us into uncanny valley, right? Yeah. When, when, for example, I don't believe in humanoid robots at all.
Some of my colleagues are very convinced of it that we are entering the era of humanoid robots. But I actually think that robots that are more like R 2D two, right? Yes. My, or, or anything like that, my favorite, that that much more feels as a robotic companion to us, augmenting us feels much more somehow accessible and better than to have a humanoid Elon Musk build humanoid robot next to you, which simply feels in the end, uncanny and will never.
Except they're just like virtual reality, second life at the time. Metaverse probably for the same reason, doesn't really compel to us. Well, on your, on your show, you often talk about music, I think. Yes. And, and, and use music as a, as a [01:22:00] thread and a framing for, you know, the beauty of life and things like that.
Where do you guys stand on AI generated music? Oh, hot topic. Ah, I'll ask Robert first. Well, we have actually my, um, my son is a composer and he, he uses a lot of digital equipment and, uh, he with his friends, uh, our remotely online composing music together. Hmm. Uh, they also tried, uh, the AI. Generated music.
A human in the loop though. I mean, so they tried to, to combine with it. Uh, in the end, after two weeks they gave up, they said it is, it is not showing the same warmth and heart felt rhythm as a music, as emotion. And you feel there is no emotion in it. That that's what I said. I mean, right. Of course you can generate music very quickly and it's easy for background music in a restaurant where you don't have to play licenses.
I mean, it works well, but, but don't try to, to recreate, uh, [01:23:00] or something with it. Is that mean it will not work? Is that a maturity point of the technology though? Maybe radically. I mean, radical change last 18 months, play it forward five, 10 years. I mean, one of the things with ai, and I think we see that in all, all the generated stuff at the moment, is, is really emotion.
Uh, so we, we have a human emotion and that is a part of the context that is not modeled in these, uh, these AI. Uh, models at the moment, it's just simply not there. And it sometimes it captures something, but it's not the same. You, you notice as a human being that that part of the context is missing. And I think that is maybe a maturity question if we can manage to actually bring that part of the context to these systems.
But at the moment we don't really see much evidence of it. And, and why don't we bring it back to the original thing that, that I mentioned as well. Maybe AI makes us feel more human, or at least makes us more aware. But we are as humans and, and I think as a musician, I, I've used it for several times and by the way, that idea of [01:24:00] a, a tape that is being generated and follows the vibe in a restaurant during the entire course of the evening, and, and it changes sort of moods when it detects.
Uh, what's happening, but also the hour of the, of the, of the dinner, you know, and it would adjust itself to it had that already for quite a few years, uh, but, but didn't turn out at that time. To your point, Rob, it wasn't good enough in terms of technology nowadays, I think we probably could pull that off.
And so I'm sharing this for free with the entire, uh, community. But, but, but having said that, it, it will also make us more realize if we make music, which is such a, uh, thing coming from the soul, I believe, and we're using their language, which is not. A language, uh, with, with silent letters, but something that expresses ourselves in ways that sometimes language cannot.
I, I think that will even make us more realize, um, what, what makes us human in, in creating that. And, and maybe it's Democrat, uh, democratizing music a little bit. You would have a brilliant idea and, and now you can use technology to fill it in. I cannot sing, for example, [01:25:00] which, which I can really assure you is the case.
I cannot sing. And, uh, I, I do compose every now and then a few things. And, and then I do use AI nowadays to get a beautiful voice, sort of like filling in a few things that I could never do myself. And, and again, it's, it's augmentation. It's, it's, it's helping us, uh, to, to, uh, also cope with our own, uh, let's say inability to do things.
And in my case, clearly cannot see. I have another perspective I always think was what's a different, it's a human history. It's uh, maybe our culture, our science, everything. Music emergent, because we are divergent from each other. We are different. So if AI encourage this divergency, maybe AI create music.
Some people like, some people don't. Like, if this, uh, uh, encouraging this divergency, we might, uh, jointly develop to something really, uh, fabulous. But my worry is, uh, AI start [01:26:00] encouraging, uh, converge. So if make all human think same, all human likes same, all human do same thing. That will be biggest problem.
I feel like it doesn't really matter, uh, whether it is true music, true art, it's this divergency. It's actually. Well look. On that note, let's bring our conversation today to a little bit of a conclusion. It's obviously been extremely wide range, and thank you everybody for your, uh, contributions to that and for the, and Ron bringing techno vision to us again this year.
Now, very briefly, um, there is a next section isn't there in, in TechVision, which is called Balance by Design. We're not gonna cover that in, in detail today. Do you wanna give us like a 32nd overview of, of what that might be? Well, balance by design as I, I, as I said, is much more about how you do things.
And sometimes we, we notice that you, you can be very, very aware of, of the hottest strengths and you embrace [01:27:00] them quickly and you understand what it could do to your business. But then as we discussed before, then it's, it's the people and, and the culture and the mindsets, uh, that are actually inhibiting you from creating the success you were aiming for.
And we're, we're expecting. So balanced by design with its seven design principles always has been, uh, very instrumental to it. We've put in some, some more focus, as you can imagine, um, in balance by design. On the, the, the human versus let's say, machine equation because the whole notion of the pendulum swing and how to deal with that.
Uh, and also, um, by the, by the way, we, we touched on it just now, this idea of when we use this next wave of, of technology to actually create not only, let's say better versions of ourselves, but particularly also of our planets and actually see it as a reiteration, a next loop then, then we're really well on our way.
And, and that's a new design principle that we added to, uh, to balance by design.[01:28:00]
Wow. That was a big one. That was a big one. It was a lot in there, isn't there? There is there, there is a lot in there. I mean, 30 odd trends, something like that. I mean, I, I felt to me though, to be a pretty accurate. Picture of kind of not only where we are in terms of technical possibility, but I liked some of the threads in terms of the, of what it might mean for businesses, what it might mean for the individual and and such.
Like Rob, I know you were involved in parts of the, um, the writing of that paper, uh, both the 2024 and the 2025 1, I think. Yeah, that is great for me. Uh, yeah, that is, uh, very true. I also do the industry versions of it for aerospace and defense and such, like, right, but the, um, you can get, you can get variations, public sector, et cetera, this sort of stuff.
So what, what does it mean, what does it mean to you and, and how you think it's useful? So what it, I mean, Ron was right when he goes, as you dip in and dip [01:29:00] out, but it, it, for me, fundamentally it is a way of framing the complexity of the technology challenge that faces us, um, and how we can think about it.
And by, by being able to think about it in a structured. And bringing a clarity to the topics and what they really mean. It allows us to then dive into the detail and get it right. So use it as a framework to think and then that helps you, uh, you know, um, get your next action being one that is. One based in that will create value and you have clarity around it and you understand, um, the why we're faced with such complexity.
How do we demystify it? That, for me is the core of what TechVision is. And as it was your first techno vision show, we've done, uh, we've done it. I think that was the third one we've done with, uh, with Ron and, uh, and Dr. Bob. Now. What was your first impressions of the. Of that big exploration. I think it's very useful.
We've been talking about a lot of, you know, themes throughout the show, obviously, and you see interconnection, I think, on a lot of places. But I do [01:30:00] love the deep dive if you talk about applications Unleashed, which I was also involved like two, three years ago in the steering committee. Um, and I love that, that wide exploration of topics.
And I really like the fact that we, you know, try to grasp them together with, uh, Dr. Bob, with Ron, and with wi I think that also brings in a different perspective. It does. And if you wanna catch up with Ron, Dr. Bob and Weiwei, they've got their own show Data Powered Innovation Jam podcast. So go and have a listen to their ongoing conversation.
If you would like to discuss any of the issues on this week's show and how they might impact you and your business, please get in touch with us at [e-mail]. We're all on LinkedIn. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to connect and DM if you have any questions for the show to tackle.
And of course, please rate and subscribe to our podcast. It really helps us improve the show. A huge thanks to Dr. Bob. Ron, Weiwei, our sound and editing wizard, Ben and Louis, our producer, Marcel, and of course to all our listeners. See you in another reality next [01:31:00] week.