This is HCD – Human-Centered Design, UX & Service Design Thinking Podcast

If you like our content, be sure to sign up to our weekly The Design Compass Newsletter. Design Smarter. Lead Better.

Join our Community: https://circle.thisishcd.com/Join-Community


We’re on the Royal Mile in Edinburgh for a walking conversation with Lucy Kimbell — engineer-turned-artist-turned-academic, and one of the sharpest observers of how design actually lands in government.

Lucy has spent over 20 years moving between design, art, academia, and public administration. She’s worked with the UK Government’s Policy Lab, contributed to the recent Public Design Evidence Review, and now teaches and researches at the intersection of design, policy, and futures. We caught up whilst both of us were speaking at SD in Gov Conference in Edinburgh, in September 2025!

In this episode, we get real about three big themes:

1️⃣ Public design – what it actually is
Lucy untangles the messy overlap between policy design, service design, content design, digital, UX and more — and explains why public design centres' legitimacy and accountability to citizens, not just delivery metrics.

2️⃣ Conditions for good service design in tough times
We talk about inclusion, accessibility and co-creation, but also the hard stuff most conferences skip: politics, ideology, austerity, AI “silver bullets” and what scaffolding leaders need so design doesn’t get crushed by budget cuts or tech solutionism.

3️⃣ Careers with impact in uncertain worlds
From appropriate technology and feminist theatre to business schools, labs and policy work, Lucy shares the three habits that have shaped her path: curiosity, experimentalism and critical reflection — and how they help designers work further upstream with policy and senior leadership.

🎧 In this episode, you’ll hear:
  • How “public design” emerged as a term and why legitimacy matters
  • Why institutions are struggling — and what that means for designers
  • The uncomfortable role of politics in design for the public sector
  • How AI, venture capital and big tech are reshaping government expectations
  • Practical advice for designers who want more impact in government and civic spaces
  • A preview of Lucy’s upcoming book on futures for design
🏰 We recorded this while walking the Royal Mile up to Edinburgh Castle — if you’re listening on audio, jump over to YouTube to get the full sense of place and atmosphere (yes, including a bit of rain!).

Links
Cabinet Office (2025). Public Design Evidence Review
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-public-design-evidence-review
 
Service Innovation Handbook (2014) by Lucy Kimbell
https://www.bispublishers.com/the-service-innovation-handbook.html
 
Substack for upcoming book Futures for Design: Scenarios for Uncertain Worlds
https://substack.com/@lucykimbell
 
Academic publications (open access) - https://researchers.arts.ac.uk/1178-lucy-kimbell/


Sponsor links

Click here to watch a video of this episode.

Creators and Guests

Host
Gerry Scullion
Gerry Scullion is an Irish-born, globally recognised service designer, educator, podcaster, coach, and founder based in Dublin. With 22+ years in design, his career spans roles in interaction design, UX, and leadership positions—most notably as Head of Design at Myspace Australia/NZ and later serving clients like Cochlear, Microsoft, Aer Lingus, and government bodies  . He’s the Founder & CEO of The Human‑Centered Design Network and the voice behind This is HCD, a popular podcast and design community with over one million downloads . A committed educator, he has developed several online courses—spanning UX fundamentals, journey mapping, stakeholder mapping, prototyping, and service blueprints—as well as authoring “Service Design for Executives” on Pluralsight . A passionate keynote speaker at events like UX Scotland and Service Design Days, he shares his insights on resilience in design, ethical frameworks (“do no harm”), and embedding design within tech-led environments . Gerry is also Co‑founder and Director at Humana Design, a Dublin-based agency focusing on design research, consultancy, and enabling design transformation . Beyond design, he’s a coach and mentor to designers worldwide, a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, and a former Councillor for Ireland . In his personal time, Gerry is a musician, barista-in-training, gardener, and family man living by the sea in Clontarf, Dublin
LK
Guest
Lucy Kimbell
SM
Editor
Serdar Mele
Serdar Mele is an international podcast editor.
SM
Producer
Stef Murphy
Stef Murphy, is a Dublin based podcast producer.

What is This is HCD – Human-Centered Design, UX & Service Design Thinking Podcast?

Welcome to This is HCD – Human-Centered Design, UX & Service Design Thinking Podcast, the global show for designers, innovators, and changemakers who want to create better products, services, and experiences.

Hosted by Gerry Scullion, with over 1-million downloads worldwide.

Each episode dives into conversations with leading voices in service design, UX design, interaction design, customer experience, and design strategy. Together, we explore the methods, mindsets, and real-world stories that bring human-centered design and design thinking to life.

Whether you’re a UX researcher, service design practitioner, product manager, or design leader, you’ll find actionable insights, practical tools, and inspiration to elevate your practice and drive meaningful change.

Tune in and join the global human-centered design community — learn how to design with purpose, create inclusive solutions, and shape a more thoughtful future.

[00:00:00] Gerry Scullion: Hey folks, and welcome back to another episode of This is HCD. My name is Gerry [00:00:05] Scullion and I'm a human-centered service design practitioner based in the beautiful city of Dublin Ireland. [00:00:10] Today on the show, I'm delighted to welcome somebody I wanted to have in the show for a very long time, and that's [00:00:15] Lucy Kimbell

[00:00:15] Gerry Scullion: We actually walk the Royal Mile in Edinburgh, and this episode, if you're [00:00:20] listening on Spotify or Apple, jump over to YouTube if you wanna see the, the beautiful. [00:00:25] As surrounds of this journey of us walking through Edinburgh city together in a little bit of the [00:00:30] rain, but it'll bring a little bit of an extra dimension to the conversation.

[00:00:33] Gerry Scullion: So Lucy is an [00:00:35] engineer turned artist, turned academic, a longtime observer of how design actually [00:00:40] lands in government. Now, you might have seen her on the panel around UX government's recent. [00:00:45] Public design evidence review. So in this conversation we get practical and we [00:00:50] get real about three things that I want you to listen out for.

[00:00:52] Gerry Scullion: Number one is public design. What it [00:00:55] actually is, the Lucy helps untangle the mess of terms of policy [00:01:00] design, service design, digital and content, and why public design centers [00:01:05] legitimacy and accountability to citizens, not just delivery metrics. Number two, the [00:01:10] conditions for good service design. In tough times, we talk inclusion and accessibility.

[00:01:14] Gerry Scullion: [00:01:15] But also the uncomfortable bit. Most conferences skip politics and how [00:01:20] power ideology in today's AI silver bullets shape what's possible and what [00:01:25] scaffolding leaders need. So design doesn't get crushed by austerity [00:01:30] or tech. Solutionism or solutionism should be careers with [00:01:35] impact. That's the third piece.

[00:01:36] Gerry Scullion: Okay. From appropriate technology and feminist theater to business schools and labs. [00:01:40] Lucy has done an awful lot in her career and Lucy distills these three habits, the [00:01:45] Curiosity, experimentalism, and Critical Reflection. They're the three pieces that Lucy [00:01:50] calls out in this episode and really how this helps designers work upstream with [00:01:55] policy and senior leadership.

[00:01:56] Gerry Scullion: It's a thoughtful, grounded, and packed with takeaways that you can use [00:02:00] on any given day. If you do enjoy this episode, please do follow the show. Tap a [00:02:05] Star a like whatever it is in your, on your podcast app. A evil review, if you can. Five words is [00:02:10] perfect. On YouTube, hit us like and subscribe. Ring the bell and don't miss what's next.

[00:02:14] Gerry Scullion: If you're [00:02:15] around the, This is HCD website, please do sign up to our newsletter. It helps you stay informed about all [00:02:20] things design leadership. Before we do that, let's jump straight into this episode where we walk around [00:02:25] Edinburgh Castle. I know it's gonna be a beautiful one for you. It's been a beautiful one for me.

[00:02:28] Gerry Scullion: Getting to know Lucy. That's jump [00:02:30] straight.[00:02:35]

[00:02:39] Gerry Scullion: [00:02:40] We're Edmar and you are, well, you were on the panel [00:02:45] the other day, which I saw about public design.

[00:02:48] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah, the public design [00:02:50] evidence review. Okay. Published by the UK government in July.

[00:02:53] Gerry Scullion: And how, how did you get involved with [00:02:55] that? Like what's the. The approach.

[00:02:57] Lucy Kimbell : Um, so, uh, [00:03:00] maybe just wind back. Yeah. Um, for more than 10 years, [00:03:05] uh, there's been an intensification of design capabilities in government, often [00:03:10] tied to digital services and services.

[00:03:13] Lucy Kimbell : But then, [00:03:15] uh, bringing design and its various, uh, guises [00:03:20] into the policy making. Um, and a an early example of that was the [00:03:25] Danish unit. Uh oh yeah. Mind lab. Um, in 2014, the UK [00:03:30] government set up as a really quite small experiment, policy lab. Um, and I had the [00:03:35] privilege of working in there. Uh, for a year, part-time through a, a research [00:03:40] fellowship.

[00:03:40] Lucy Kimbell : Nice. So I've been sort of tracking and paying attention to this emergence and, [00:03:45] uh, zoom forward, uh, 2023. Um, Andy Knight, who [00:03:50] convenes the, uh, public design hold on. Policy design community, which [00:03:55] is across government network, basically.

[00:03:57] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:03:57] Lucy Kimbell : Um, uh, of, of various [00:04:00] people doing design activities in government related roles and, and local government.[00:04:05]

[00:04:05] Lucy Kimbell : And public services in the uk um, initiated something called the Public Design [00:04:10] Evidence Review, and that's what was published in July. Okay. Um, uh, with [00:04:15] various teams involved. And so some of us who were involved in it spoke. At the conference on [00:04:20] whatever the first day was to just share with the broader audience, because many of the people are [00:04:25] at are at this conference here in Edinburgh.

[00:04:26] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, absolutely. So can I just take a, [00:04:30] an even further step back, uh, back in time, what did you study in university? [00:04:35]

[00:04:35] Lucy Kimbell : Uh, so I studied engineering, design, and appropriate technology. Okay. [00:04:40] Um, what, what,

[00:04:41] Gerry Scullion: what's appropriate technology?

[00:04:43] Lucy Kimbell : Well, it's the things that we now [00:04:45] think are essential for, um, uh, an ecological future.

[00:04:49] Lucy Kimbell : Such [00:04:50] as, uh, wind power, solar power, and so on. Okay. But back in the seventies and eighties, [00:04:55] um, they, they, that was more the sort of obscure fringes of engineering, which I [00:05:00] relished in, but I wasn't a very good engineer and I spent most of my time doing [00:05:05] experimental feminist theater. And, uh, the rest of my life is trying to join those two things up.

[00:05:09] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. '

[00:05:09] Gerry Scullion: cause I [00:05:10] know you, you've dabbled, let's say dabbled. You've, you've got an extensive art career as well. Yeah. [00:05:15] Um, and I've, I've looking through your website and exploring all of that as well. [00:05:20] So how would you identify, like if you're at a dinner party and someone says, Lucy, what do you do?

[00:05:24] Lucy Kimbell : I'd [00:05:25] say I have, uh, tried to understand, make [00:05:30] sense of the world, explore the world, and used various media and formats to, [00:05:35] at different points to share understanding and [00:05:40] experiences and connect with people.

[00:05:40] Lucy Kimbell : So that's really a vague answer. Yeah, I mean, right now I'm an academic. For the last 20 years [00:05:45] I've been an academic rooted in design, but I was in a business school for [00:05:50] five years, so I got exposed to. World class organization studies and that [00:05:55] had a knock on effect. It made me take research very, very seriously.

[00:05:58] Lucy Kimbell : I mean, because I mean, you worked in loads

[00:05:59] Gerry Scullion: of [00:06:00] different institutions. That's because

[00:06:01] Lucy Kimbell : I couldn't get a job, Jared, right? Gerald?

[00:06:03] Gerry Scullion: Jerry. Call me [00:06:05] Jerry. Sorry.

[00:06:05] Lucy Kimbell : Sorry. It's just that Irish thing's thing. I wanna call you Jared,

[00:06:09] Gerry Scullion: gimme my full name. [00:06:10] So you're primarily, uh, you're involved in policy design and obviously you, you [00:06:15] wrote a paper a number of years ago, and I guess what I'm interested in, there's a lot of people here.

[00:06:19] Gerry Scullion: You [00:06:20] listen to my podcast specifically, who are looking to inform greater impact. Yeah. Okay. [00:06:25] They might have studied design, and when they're interfacing with other parts of government, they feel [00:06:30] this kind of level of like, well, I don't know much about policy. Yeah. And they're kind of [00:06:35] learning that that might be the right rate to explore to get greater impact.

[00:06:39] Gerry Scullion: [00:06:40] Yeah. How did you navigate that? You're an engineer, uh, but you've worked in academia [00:06:45] for 20 years, I think you just said. How did you get to that point where you're [00:06:50] suddenly collaborating on these massive reports and policy design? [00:06:55] Uh, uh,

[00:06:55] Lucy Kimbell : being curious, being nosy, and

[00:06:57] Gerry Scullion: I think we grew up here, don't we?

[00:06:58] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah.

[00:06:59] Lucy Kimbell : Uh, yeah. And [00:07:00] here we are in absolutely beautiful Edinburgh where it's only raining a little bit.

[00:07:04] Gerry Scullion: That's [00:07:05] all right. You, you're almost Irish as we've determined.

[00:07:07] Lucy Kimbell : No, I have them. So the water, I have the [00:07:10] documentation,

[00:07:10] Gerry Scullion: the water soaks into our skin. We don't feel right. It does, it

[00:07:12] Lucy Kimbell : does. Like it just disappears off me.

[00:07:13] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. [00:07:15] Uh, so, um. Well, I, uh, so I got this job at, say, business school at 20 [00:07:20] 2005. Yeah. So in a business school where I was a design research fellow, which was very unusual and still [00:07:25] remains very unusual, and then taught, uh, my version of design thinking, [00:07:30] service design mashup.

[00:07:31] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. On

[00:07:31] Lucy Kimbell : the MBA for about 15 years.

[00:07:33] Lucy Kimbell : Wow. And [00:07:35] so, um, I've actually ended up. Teaching design or something like [00:07:40] design more to managers, leaders, entrepreneurs, um, civil [00:07:45] servants than to designers at this point.

[00:07:47] Gerry Scullion: Yeah,

[00:07:48] Lucy Kimbell : so I've, I've had a privilege of [00:07:50] tracing that journey of design, kind of going up the value chain or sort of becoming [00:07:55] recognized by leaders and entrepreneurs and activists.

[00:07:59] Lucy Kimbell : Like Goding [00:08:00] has some special things. That it can bring to change, to action, [00:08:05] to interven, indeed, government

[00:08:05] Gerry Scullion: and locals as well.

[00:08:06] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah.

[00:08:07] Gerry Scullion: Do we go up this road here?

[00:08:08] Lucy Kimbell : Um, we do. Or should we go [00:08:10] the steps?

[00:08:10] Gerry Scullion: We do. Which do you prefer being out? Breath on

[00:08:12] Lucy Kimbell : this one, this one. It's quite, [00:08:15] it's quite steep at the end. That's all right.

[00:08:16] Lucy Kimbell : People will

[00:08:17] Gerry Scullion: know how a road, oh, and this is the

[00:08:18] Lucy Kimbell : National Gallery where [00:08:20] I think the, uh, Gomley show is here. It is. Goldsworthy, not Gomley. This way I [00:08:25] think you were talking about. Yeah, this is, yeah. So this is, uh, uh, and sort of, uh, [00:08:30] environmental art. Yeah. Look, 50 years. So I'm gonna go see that show later.

[00:08:33] Gerry Scullion: So you're, [00:08:35] uh, also an artist, right?

[00:08:38] Gerry Scullion: You don't become and stop. [00:08:40] You still are.

[00:08:41] Lucy Kimbell : Well, I studied an engineer, so I didn't really kind of, you know, I didn't have an art school [00:08:45] legitimacy, although since I've now worked in Central St. Martins for 10 years, maybe some of that's rubbed off. [00:08:50] Yeah. Uh,

[00:08:51] Gerry Scullion: so walk me through your art. As well before we come back [00:08:55] onto, uh, policy and service stuff.

[00:08:58] Lucy Kimbell : So, [00:09:00] uh, after my, uh, degree [00:09:05] where I discovered I really wasn't a very good engineer. But I was very interested in [00:09:10] technology and society and environment. Right. Uh, I lived in a couple of different [00:09:15] places. I lived in Barcelona for a year. Nice. I lived in Warsaw, Poland for two years. Wow. [00:09:20] 'cause it was that post-communist moment and I Okay.

[00:09:22] Lucy Kimbell : Wanted to see [00:09:25] what happened and ended up living there for two years and running. Night club nights. Nice. Yeah. [00:09:30] Yeah. During journalism,

[00:09:31] Gerry Scullion: I'll have to try and bring that back around the conversation to the club nights. I think that that might be a [00:09:35] nice way to, I know

[00:09:35] Lucy Kimbell : I just do that in my kitchen. Go um, and embarrass my teenager.

[00:09:39] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. But

[00:09:39] Gerry Scullion: never. Ease are [00:09:40] good. Ease are good. Alright, so, uh, so, so I'd,

[00:09:43] Lucy Kimbell : so I'd experienced the [00:09:45] world right. As a, as a. You know, as a, you know, privileged white person from [00:09:50] Britain. I'd spent a year in Sudan teaching English. I spent a year in Barcelona, basically teaching [00:09:55] English.

[00:09:55] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:09:55] Lucy Kimbell : And hanging out. And I spent two years in Poland [00:10:00] and then came back to, moved to London [00:10:05] and worked at the BBC World Service for a bit.

[00:10:08] Lucy Kimbell : Wow. And had a hunger for [00:10:10] something more, something creative, and ended up doing a master's. At, um, [00:10:15] an art school within Middlesex University right where [00:10:20] they taught us to, to, to program in c Ah, so it was a very unusual [00:10:25] course, which the premise was if you're an artist, you need to understand [00:10:30] your tools and craft your tools, not just use some software tools Yeah.

[00:10:34] Lucy Kimbell : That someone [00:10:35] else has created. Yeah. And those days it was Photoshop too, right. Um, and I [00:10:40] vaguely

[00:10:40] Gerry Scullion: remember too as well, but.

[00:10:42] Lucy Kimbell : So, so we had to program and see to, and [00:10:45] it gave me a deep understanding, well, I dunno about deep, but some understanding of computation. [00:10:50] Um, and so then I was much more involved in digital [00:10:55] technology development and in 1996, we didn't call it user experience design.

[00:10:59] Gerry Scullion: [00:11:00] Yeah. HCI, was it,

[00:11:01] Lucy Kimbell : uh, yeah, it was the early days of HCI. [00:11:05] And so I did that for a while. Some kind of, somewhere between the [00:11:10] art and me. Trying to make a living by doing what we now call, [00:11:15] you know, web strategy or UX design. But we didn't call it that then.

[00:11:18] Gerry Scullion: Right.

[00:11:19] Lucy Kimbell : And then I [00:11:20] went through that for a few years and then thought, why, why are these projects with so [00:11:25] many millions of pounds churning out rubbish stuff?

[00:11:27] Lucy Kimbell : Right. Why is innovation and transformation so [00:11:30] hard? Yeah. Why don't I. Try to go to academia to find out what's going on in [00:11:35] these kind of projects.

[00:11:36] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:11:36] Lucy Kimbell : So then I [00:11:40] ended up in academia and discovered that, okay, they have a lot of theories and [00:11:45] concepts and knowledge about change, about the world, about people.

[00:11:48] Lucy Kimbell : Is that when you

[00:11:49] Gerry Scullion: first got [00:11:50] exposed to what you probably call in a broader term design thinking?

[00:11:53] Lucy Kimbell : Uh, yeah, but that term, I [00:11:55] didn't come across that till maybe. 2005 when I already had the [00:12:00] job at Oxford, where I rocked up as this sort of weird artist, really. And I'm amazed they [00:12:05] gave me the job, but I, my job was to be in a business school and do something around [00:12:10] design.

[00:12:10] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. Which quite frankly, I didn't know much about the mainstream of design. I knew the weird [00:12:15] fringes. Yeah. Which intersected with art 'cause I'd been teaching at the Royal College.

[00:12:18] Gerry Scullion: But just say when you, they rocked up as a [00:12:20] weird art. Yeah. I applied

[00:12:21] Lucy Kimbell : for the job. I applied for the job. Know you applied the

[00:12:22] Gerry Scullion: job, but what do you think they saw and what do you think they saw in you [00:12:25] to give you that, that opportunity?

[00:12:26] Lucy Kimbell : Um, curiosity. Yeah. Uh, experimental [00:12:30] experimentalism. Um, and, uh, and a critical thinking.

[00:12:34] Gerry Scullion: Do [00:12:35] you think that still applies today? Like, it sounds to me that those three pieces are still [00:12:40] one of the main things that you look for.

[00:12:42] Lucy Kimbell : Uh, yeah. Well, I think anyone who's a [00:12:45] serious researcher could, should have those things.

[00:12:48] Lucy Kimbell : But actually a serious designer should, right? [00:12:50] Curiosity, critical thinking to understand critically reflect on the conditions, which was [00:12:55] a bit coming out at the conference, but could have come out more like what are the conditions that create the [00:13:00] opportunities or block the conditions for good design, uh, co-creation, [00:13:05] meaningful.

[00:13:05] Lucy Kimbell : Um, uh, addressing of today's challenges, right? Yeah. So what are the conditions? And for [00:13:10] that, really you need a quite sociological, I would say, or anthropological understanding. [00:13:15] Yeah. So design to trace

[00:13:16] Gerry Scullion: it back.

[00:13:17] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. To, and, and a world understanding of the worldview. [00:13:20] Like what is the worldview, what are the ideologies, what are, what's, what's thinking is present, what assumptions are.[00:13:25]

[00:13:25] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. Not just on a project level, you know, what can we do in this project over the [00:13:30] next year? But actually what, uh, how is the world understood? Yeah. Who, who [00:13:35] has power and agency in that world? What has agency, for example, [00:13:40] AI

[00:13:40] Gerry Scullion: now, Lucy,

[00:13:41] Lucy Kimbell : oh,

[00:13:42] Gerry Scullion: this was an idea to, to end at the [00:13:45] castle. We're still gonna do it, right, but just as a disclaimer.

[00:13:48] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. I might have a heart attack going up these [00:13:50] steps. Okay. So if so. I love my wife and I love my children. [00:13:55] You carry this camera back and publish it, won't you? Um, you've spent [00:14:00] 20, 20 odd years in academia. You're working a policy design. We've spoken about [00:14:05] the actual research.

[00:14:05] Lucy Kimbell : I work in the research on the research side.

[00:14:07] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. I don't really, I don't do it. I wouldn't claim to do it. Yeah, [00:14:10]

[00:14:10] Gerry Scullion: but you're still around the. The world of policy.

[00:14:14] Lucy Kimbell : [00:14:15] Yeah. So that you actually, to link back to your earlier question, so that report, uh, that got launched by the cabinet [00:14:20] office and the policy profession, which is a, uh, civil service, UK civil [00:14:25] service, um, yeah.

[00:14:25] Lucy Kimbell : Capability across government. Um, that [00:14:30] report was to try and bring some clarification to the multiple sets of [00:14:35] terms that coexist. So this digital design, this content design. [00:14:40] There's service design, service design, and there's interactions design and there's [00:14:45] policy design, like how do we make sense of all these things?

[00:14:47] Lucy Kimbell : And for design people, you have your, your, [00:14:50] your club, your crew, your, your bit of it. But yeah, it, there needed to be some joining up and [00:14:55] some more coherence in relation to existing understandings of public administration. So the [00:15:00] paper that I, um. Contributed to, I'm now getting out of breath. That's

[00:15:04] Gerry Scullion: all [00:15:05] right.

[00:15:05] Gerry Scullion: We stand here for a minute and catch our breath and we continue. Uh,

[00:15:07] Lucy Kimbell : is is co-authored with, um, three professors [00:15:10] of political science or various aspects of public administration studies who [00:15:15] bring that deeper understanding of government that I don't have. And then we tried to mash up the [00:15:20] knowledge to make it useful to create some frameworks and thinking.

[00:15:24] Lucy Kimbell : Uh, and to [00:15:25] synthesize some of the stuff that come outta the civil services own research.

[00:15:28] Gerry Scullion: What, what are the thoughts in your own [00:15:30] perspective, the term public design?

[00:15:34] Lucy Kimbell : So [00:15:35] that term, where

[00:15:36] Gerry Scullion: did it come from?

[00:15:37] Lucy Kimbell : So, during the process of commissioning that [00:15:40] research, which included multiple different elements led by um, Andy Knight in this, uh, who's a [00:15:45] civil servant in the UK government, he suggested this term and I was on the advisory board at that [00:15:50] time with another, um, with Liz Richardson, who's a.

[00:15:52] Lucy Kimbell : Professor of, I don't know, [00:15:55] politics or something at University of Manchester. Yeah. So we were dealing with the fact that there were all these different [00:16:00] bits Yeah. Bits of terminology. And what was the terminology? 'cause it isn't just policy design or [00:16:05] design for policy. Yeah. You know, your, the design of a digital thing is within a policy context, so how to [00:16:10] make sense of it.

[00:16:11] Lucy Kimbell : And I do think it was Andy that might have suggested that term and we debated it and thought, yeah, [00:16:15] that probably will work. But there isn't a current definition. So one of the jobs, our academic paper is [00:16:20] within the. Wider set of documents is to say, okay, let's try and attempt to [00:16:25] first go a definition.

[00:16:26] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. And it's by no means definitive. Um, it's just saying this is what it could [00:16:30] be. And one of the differences between say, public design and design in [00:16:35] general, or design that's got a commercial orientation, sorry,

[00:16:38] Gerry Scullion: sorry. [00:16:40]

[00:16:40] Lucy Kimbell : Is that, um, a sense of legitimacy, right? To who is the [00:16:45] designing and the design, uh, to whom does it have legitimacy and [00:16:50] accountability and

[00:16:50] Gerry Scullion: impact and

[00:16:51] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah, yeah.

[00:16:52] Lucy Kimbell : But who's and the impact of the impact of positive or negative? [00:16:55] Who's it accountable to? Yeah. Right. And so democratic institutions, democratic processes [00:17:00] can. Possibly provide that legitimacy. So that's a word that is in our [00:17:05] definition of public design somehow. Yeah, because

[00:17:06] Gerry Scullion: I know in the audience, a lot of people are like, oh

[00:17:08] Lucy Kimbell : yeah, [00:17:10]

[00:17:10] Gerry Scullion: really another, another term.

[00:17:11] Gerry Scullion: Like, you know, like, it's kind of like, I, I [00:17:15] know. How do you solve something like that? Like, you know, there's, there's industries built off certain terminologies. [00:17:20] Well, this,

[00:17:20] Lucy Kimbell : this design thinking as you remember, you know, was basically a term You're keep going. Yeah. Yeah. I, [00:17:25] I caught my breath now. Thank you.

[00:17:26] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. My heart rate's gone

[00:17:27] Gerry Scullion: back down to 150.

[00:17:28] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. I can actually check [00:17:30] mine do live data tracking using my, my new Apple watch share that later. My brother, [00:17:35] that my brother gave me.

[00:17:36] Gerry Scullion: Oh, nice.

[00:17:38] Lucy Kimbell : Uh, so [00:17:40] yeah, so the terminology, you know, it has fads, right? Yeah. So design thinking, okay. It actually existed [00:17:45] as a term from, say, the.

[00:17:46] Lucy Kimbell : 1980s. That's right. Through academic researchers trying [00:17:50] to un study. You go first

[00:17:50] Gerry Scullion: there. Okay.

[00:17:53] Lucy Kimbell : Thank you. Thank you.[00:17:55]

[00:17:57] Gerry Scullion: Can keep going. We've got this.

[00:17:59] Lucy Kimbell : So [00:18:00] academic researchers trying to um, uh, capture [00:18:05] and define and articulate something distinctive that they saw in [00:18:10] designers, professional designers, and how they approach designing. Design [00:18:15] cognition would be another term for that. And then in 2000 5, 6, 7, and then eight [00:18:20] actually with the publication in Harvard Business Review.

[00:18:22] Lucy Kimbell : One Consultancy, IDO. [00:18:25]

[00:18:25] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Is

[00:18:25] Lucy Kimbell : trying to go up the value chain. And starts using that term. As [00:18:30] you know, we're just doing the method and the methodology rather with a set of methods, [00:18:35] and that's our value proposition. Yeah. That's a commercial. And so then everyone's talking about design thinking and it's [00:18:40] quite removed from the craft.

[00:18:42] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. Or crafts, plural of [00:18:45] designing and the very specific context in which that has happened.

[00:18:49] Gerry Scullion: [00:18:50] It's funny because I remember way back at that point being interviewed in Australia and [00:18:55] someone said to me, do you do design thinking? And I go, um, what do you mean? Like, and they [00:19:00] go, do you do design thinking?

[00:19:01] Gerry Scullion: And I go, I'm a designer.

[00:19:03] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah, it was

[00:19:03] Gerry Scullion: native.

[00:19:04] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah, [00:19:05] exactly.

[00:19:05] Gerry Scullion: Experimentation a piece. So that was kind of like the, the [00:19:10] point, uh, it's interesting about public design and that [00:19:15] terminology that it was, it was quite triggering in the conference where people were saying, actually, [00:19:20] you know, what does this add noise?

[00:19:23] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Or does this add clarity?

[00:19:24] Lucy Kimbell : [00:19:25] Yeah. So we don't know. Right. And yet, you know, in five years time, if [00:19:30] people are still using the term Yeah. You know, maybe, maybe there's a shift, right? Yeah. Maybe there isn't. Um, but you [00:19:35] gotta

[00:19:35] Gerry Scullion: try, you gotta experiment. Yeah.

[00:19:37] Lucy Kimbell : But there is something about the legitimacy [00:19:40] required to, for, for public institutions or activists.

[00:19:44] Lucy Kimbell : [00:19:45] Claiming or, or, or civil service organ, uh, civil society organizations doing design [00:19:50] work, claiming legitimacy. Like, here's a public problem. This is something that needs to be attended [00:19:55] to.

[00:19:55] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:19:55] Lucy Kimbell : We are

[00:19:57] Gerry Scullion: causing,

[00:19:58] Lucy Kimbell : causing a blockage. We're

[00:19:59] Gerry Scullion: [00:20:00] not, we're casually walking along the royal mile [00:20:05] on our way to Edinburgh Castle.

[00:20:07] Lucy Kimbell : There's some crown jewels in here.

[00:20:09] Gerry Scullion: There [00:20:10] is,

[00:20:10] Lucy Kimbell : yeah. I came here actually to Ted. Uh, I showed some [00:20:15] artwork at Ted's in 2011, which I'd forgotten in here. Uh, yeah. Here and, [00:20:20] uh, the castle, it being Ted and lots of money in the ticket. Some of large amount of money. Ah. Uh, [00:20:25] we had a reception in the castle and we got to go around the royal apartments.

[00:20:29] Lucy Kimbell : I think [00:20:30] it was. And so the Scottish crown jewels,

[00:20:32] Gerry Scullion: can I ask you more around where you see service [00:20:35] design now? 'cause like it's really interesting to get your perspective when [00:20:40] this report has been dropped, got public design. What do you see at the forefront [00:20:45] of the things that people within service design should gain [00:20:50] more visibility and understanding of?

[00:20:52] Lucy Kimbell : So, uh, [00:20:55] one of the good things about the concept that's over here,

[00:20:58] Gerry Scullion: so we're not in the way.

[00:20:59] Lucy Kimbell : [00:21:00] Tourists. Yeah. Including us.

[00:21:01] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:21:02] Lucy Kimbell : Uh, one of the [00:21:05] good things about the conference is this emphasis on [00:21:10] inclusion and accessibility and, uh, [00:21:15] co-create meaningful co-creation and the conditions for that 'cause of, for example, accessibility.

[00:21:19] Lucy Kimbell : [00:21:20] Take a

[00:21:20] Gerry Scullion: seat here and we'll put this down.

[00:21:21] Lucy Kimbell : Data. Sit, sitting.

[00:21:22] Gerry Scullion: Sit on the stand. You okay doing

[00:21:24] Lucy Kimbell : that? Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. [00:21:25] Lovely view over there. So, um, so that's all great, [00:21:30] but what's absent, glaringly absent and very hard for anyone to talk about is [00:21:35] politics. Um, the moment that we live in, uh. Uh, competing [00:21:40] ideologies, fragmentation, populism, and not just dismissing populists, uh, you know, [00:21:45] from a liberal perspective, which is basically my perspective.

[00:21:48] Lucy Kimbell : Liberal stroke, communitarian. Yeah. [00:21:50] Um, to, to dismiss them and go, well, they're populists or, or, or, or, worse the difference. Fascist. But [00:21:55] actually why is it? That, um, people, some people are so [00:22:00] disengaged, distrustful the institutions, uh, [00:22:05] many of the public servants, including those at this conference, are absolutely well-meaning trying to do their best, [00:22:10] but actually public institutions, uh, are failing on a large [00:22:15] scale.

[00:22:15] Lucy Kimbell : Uh, and um, and I, we haven't even talked about climate, [00:22:20] so, um, so we're not talking about that at the conference at all. I know. And it's [00:22:25] very hard to talk about other than in more general terms, like, oh, design should be, um,

[00:22:29] Gerry Scullion: [00:22:30] thinking of all these things. It's a little bit more. It's like myself, mark and Owen [00:22:35] from Dublin City gave a talk about service architecture and providing the scaffolding for service design.

[00:22:39] Gerry Scullion: [00:22:40] Um, and I, I lighten it to, um, getting the conditions right for set [00:22:45] sailing and being able to have your compass in place so you know where you're gonna go. And without that [00:22:50] scaffolding, um, it's very difficult to, to navigate these. Tumultuous [00:22:55] times. Um, what do you, what are your thoughts on [00:23:00] moving the dial forward within organizations who are maybe struggling with service design, [00:23:05] adoption, uh, leadership or falling behind and, you know, [00:23:10] starting to just crunch on the numbers?

[00:23:11] Gerry Scullion: And we fall into that times of austerity where [00:23:15] design suddenly has to do more with less.

[00:23:17] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. Uh, and at a time when [00:23:20] ai, uh, being pushed by, um, started to bite investors. Yes. Uh, being [00:23:25] pushed by tech companies who have something to sell and, um, um, [00:23:30] for those seeking simple answers, let's invest in a load of technology to sort of wrap.

[00:23:34] Lucy Kimbell : AI [00:23:35] can do our job. Yeah. AI can do everybody's jobs and make things better. Right. Yeah. So we do know we collectively [00:23:40] need things to be better, but. Outsourcing it to, uh, technologies, uh, [00:23:45] and the, the, the governance of that and, you know, leaving everything in the control of four [00:23:50] global companies is, is, is extremely worrying.

[00:23:52] Gerry Scullion: What's the risk there though, for, like, say a a, the [00:23:55] work that you're doing now with that? Public design is kind of local government level in the uk, correct?

[00:23:59] Lucy Kimbell : No, [00:24:00] no, no. It's national. National. That was definitely national government. Yeah.

[00:24:03] Gerry Scullion: Okay. So [00:24:05] leaders in there saying, actually, you know what, there's an opportunity here for AI to disrupt and add [00:24:10] value.

[00:24:10] Gerry Scullion: Was that something that was discussed in the, the curation of the report that the threat, that that can give [00:24:15] that kind of weak leadership?

[00:24:17] Lucy Kimbell : No, not enough. And that's partly because a lot of the [00:24:20] work was done in 2023. Right. Okay.

[00:24:22] Gerry Scullion: Before it started, it was actually

[00:24:23] Lucy Kimbell : published in [00:24:25] 2025. Yeah. Because of the slow processes of,

[00:24:26] Gerry Scullion: of

[00:24:27] Lucy Kimbell : governments getting numbers of documents.

[00:24:28] Lucy Kimbell : Together. [00:24:30] Um, what, and also it was never trying to be definitive and fully comprehensive. Yeah. It was actually relatively resource [00:24:35] light, even though it's 70 or 80,000 words. So a book, book size? Yeah. It is a book. It is a book. Uh, [00:24:40] if you print it all out, uh, however, uh, it's actually quite partial and [00:24:45] it's, it's more a stepping stone.

[00:24:46] Lucy Kimbell : Like here's, here's a way of thinking about it. Yeah. And it's addressed to those, those senior [00:24:50] leaders. And when we had the launch event, um, as at UAL at University of [00:24:55] the Arts, London, in July, we had a minister from the cabinet office, Georgia Gould mp. [00:25:00] Who of course has since been moved on in a reshuffle.

[00:25:02] Lucy Kimbell : Uh, and, uh, so as director [00:25:05] general to a very senior civil servant, uh, Janet Hughes, a Minister for civil Service, [00:25:10] so not Minister civils, risk efficiency reform, these kinds of words is her job title in the cabinet [00:25:15] office. So to have those two people, the political side and the senior civil servant, it [00:25:20] gives a close and, and some other speaking saying design this [00:25:25] capability, uh, is doing all sorts of things already.

[00:25:27] Lucy Kimbell : It's already in lot of. Pockets. Yeah. And, and it has the potential [00:25:30] to help government address its problems. Yeah. And AI is one of the other things along with [00:25:35] other capabilities and resources. So it's just a stepping bestow Yeah. To sort of pull things [00:25:40] together and go. But, but, but more work will be done by those civil servants.

[00:25:43] Lucy Kimbell : I'm, you know, I'm a [00:25:45] mere academic on the outside. No,

[00:25:46] Gerry Scullion: you're a world class academic who's produced some stuff, not just blowing smoke, [00:25:50] but like myself and Mark who were doing that talk from Snappy, like, you know, we've worked [00:25:55] together for a long time and Mark really. Cares about helping as many [00:26:00] organizations as possible and the, the journey management side of things, for as [00:26:05] long as I've known Mark, he's been trying to, you know, pioneer this kind of mindset.

[00:26:09] Gerry Scullion: What, what do you [00:26:10] think, um, you know, is there an opportunity there for people within [00:26:15] government to lean into this kind of thinking, to be more strategic Here you take my coat. No, I'm not gonna take your coat. [00:26:20] Uh,

[00:26:20] Lucy Kimbell : but we might walk rather than sit here. My house. No, thank you. I don't think it sees me. It's very nice though.

[00:26:24] Lucy Kimbell : Thanks. [00:26:25] Is it, is it Irish, Scottish? I assume it's Irish.

[00:26:26] Gerry Scullion: It's, um, from a, a boutique, uh, [00:26:30] called, um, Marx and Spencers. Is it called the Marx and Spencers Boutique? Yeah. Marks, I got it [00:26:35] last week. It's a long story, but I've had to, you know, basically procure a range of hats due to [00:26:40] some, uh, Australian damage to my scalp.

[00:26:43] Gerry Scullion: Oh, the sun made 14 years the sun.

[00:26:44] Lucy Kimbell : Yes. [00:26:45]

[00:26:45] Gerry Scullion: So hence why I have to wear it to reduce the UV on my, on my scalp for the time being.

[00:26:49] Lucy Kimbell : Yeah. [00:26:50] There's not, I don't think there's a lot of sun in, uh, Edinburgh this, this week,

[00:26:54] Gerry Scullion: like my [00:26:55] doctor said, you'd be surprised. Just keep it on for me for the time being. Okay. But, um,

[00:26:59] Lucy Kimbell : yeah,

[00:26:59] Gerry Scullion: [00:27:00] we, we, we'll wrap up this up now in a second, like, you know.

[00:27:02] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. What are you working on at the moment? What's. Oh, [00:27:05] what's exciting, Lucy, for the next,

[00:27:06] Lucy Kimbell : uh, a book. I'm writing a book about this book, the Future of [00:27:10] Design. Sorry, another book? Yeah. Uh uh, so this book, the current title is Futures for [00:27:15] Design Scenarios for Uncertain Worlds. So we talked, um, not

[00:27:18] Gerry Scullion: applicable at all to [00:27:20] where we're at now.

[00:27:20] Gerry Scullion: Everything is stable.

[00:27:23] Lucy Kimbell : So I'm looking at professionalized [00:27:25] design, both. Service design, design thinking, product designer. So it's, it's [00:27:30] trying to be, uh, uh, not too grand and pompous and cover every, [00:27:35] all design globally. That would be ridiculous. Yeah. Uh, however, trying to identify [00:27:40] some, um, some of those conditions.

[00:27:42] Lucy Kimbell : Some of the dilemmas and possibilities and map out [00:27:45] what those questions are, which include, well, what? What's the core of design? So at the moment, in [00:27:50] 2025, we assume, oh, it's this, this, and this. These are the core things. Yeah. But that's contingent. That's [00:27:55] 'cause of a set of things and contemporary capitalism and the ideologies and the worlds we [00:28:00] live in and how things got to be as they are now.

[00:28:02] Lucy Kimbell : Sure. How things might be in 10 years [00:28:05] time. Uh, and even if we just reduce it to a sort of global sa uh, global north rather, uh, [00:28:10] uh, context, things are changing and will change. So I'm trying to map [00:28:15] out what some of those factors might be. And it's to a combination of reading loads of futures [00:28:20] reports, um, about 20 interviews with various design leaders from.

[00:28:24] Lucy Kimbell : On context, [00:28:25] different industries and countries and context work and, um, a project with some of [00:28:30] our, uh, graduates, a sort of practice project. Fantastic. Um, some workshops and something else. Oh, [00:28:35] academic literature, like on business models right there. Academic literature, exploring, you know, to look at [00:28:40] about business models change.

[00:28:42] Lucy Kimbell : Um, water profession is. Yeah. Is [00:28:45] design a profession? Not really. Or depends how you conceptualize profession. So I'm taking some of this Oh wow. [00:28:50] Looking at some of these questions and trying to put it all together into a useful book. When's it

[00:28:53] Gerry Scullion: gonna be out?

[00:28:54] Lucy Kimbell : [00:28:55] Um, at the end of 2026, I think.

[00:28:57] Gerry Scullion: Okay. Well I'm the first person to interview when that book comes out.

[00:28:59] Gerry Scullion: Okay. [00:29:00] Guaranteed. Right. Okay. Alright. Just look, thanks so much for your time today and, uh, thank you Julie. I'll put the links to your. LinkedIn, [00:29:05] are you active on LinkedIn? Yeah. Yeah. Any other thing? Newsletter. Do you have a newsletter or anything you want to share? Not yet. [00:29:10] Share. Okay. Well you can find Lucy on all of those respective channels.

[00:29:14] Gerry Scullion: Thanks [00:29:15] much for your time today. Thank you and I'll you

[00:29:16] Lucy Kimbell : soon. Thank [00:29:20] [00:29:25] you.