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What happens when a master of human connection realizes he's barely talked about his most important role?
Guy Sengstock, co-founder of Circling and dialogical practices expert, joins me to explore the implicit nature of fatherhood. With a 22-year-old son and a 4-year-old, Guy shares raw insights on the wonder of witnessing consciousness emerge, the profound regret of signing away proximity to his eldest, and why aggression needs socialization, not suppression. We discuss how fathers teach most powerfully when they're not trying, the cosmological significance of rough-and-tumble play, and what it means to midwife young beings into self-awareness.
Key Takeaways:
- Why parenting happens most powerfully in implicit, unplanned moments
- The respect and otherness experienced during childbirth
- How physical play socializes healthy masculine aggression
- The deep regret of allowing distance from your child
- What it means to be present with wonder as a father
- How perspective becomes a father's greatest gift
- Why ending generational trauma matters more than legacy
- The importance of being fully present at birth and beyond
If you enjoyed The Dad Manual, leave us a rating on your podcast app! If you loved it, share this episode with a Dad! Send your questions to dadmanualpodcast@gmail.com.
Connect with Tony Cooper: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thetonycooper/
Creators and Guests
What is The Dad Manual?
The Dad Manual is a fatherhood podcast hosted by Tony Cooper, featuring honest conversations with dads about the real, unfiltered journey of parenthood. This parenting podcast for dads explores everything from the excitement of being a first time dad to navigating the teenage years. As one of the best podcasts for expecting dads and experienced fathers alike, we dive deep into what it actually means to be a modern dad—the struggles, the growth, the mistakes, and the moments that change you forever. Whether you're looking for a new dad podcast or seasoned parenting wisdom, this family podcast delivers the honest guidance you won't find in books.
[Speaker 1] (0:00 - 0:05)
What do you think that becoming a dad has taught you about the masculine?
[Speaker 2] (0:06 - 0:11)
I think that aggression is so awesome, but it does need to be socialized.
[Speaker 1] (0:11 - 0:15)
There's a nothingness there, but yet he's there.
There's someone there already.
[Speaker 2] (0:15 - 0:21)
I feel the sense of like there's like kind of tears in the back of my eyes. There's like a heaviness in my chest.
[Speaker 1] (0:28 - 0:34)
Awesome. I am here today with one of my favorite dads, Guy. Guy, will you introduce yourself?
[Speaker 2] (0:35 - 0:42)
My name is Guy Sengstock. I'm a great dad and I have some wisdom I want to share with you.
[Speaker 1] (0:42 - 0:47)
Yeah, awesome.
You were just saying that you're excited about this conversation. What are you excited about the conversation?
[Speaker 2] (0:48 - 1:25)
You know, it's interesting because it's actually it's an excitement that kind of comes with like a recognition or a realization or an insight, right, of what I do for a living, what I've been doing for a living, you know, since I was in my early 20s, has been dialogical practices, right?
And circling, you know, I was one of the main founders of circling, which is like really caught and is practiced everywhere. So and I teach it and like I teach people how to circle.
[Speaker 1] (1:25 - 11:52)
So I've probably had more, paid more attention to dialogical relations, right, relationships and thought about that more than like I probably ever even dreamed of wanting to.
Right. And what's really interesting is that when you asked when you asked, invited me to come talk about being a dad, I realized like I've had very few conversations directly about fatherhood and what it is to father. Right.
What it is to be a father. And that really struck me. That really struck me because especially given how like important this is.
Right. Right. For my sons, for me, for the future world, like it's like it's it's up there with probably one of the most important things.
Yet I, you know, to consider like all the talk about relationship that I've done, like very few, like very little of it has been focused on that. The insight about that is I think about that in two, like a couple of ways. And on one on one level, I think, oh, that we don't talk about this.
Right. Is a problem. Right.
On one level. And I think that's really true. It also expresses something about fatherhood and about parenting.
Right. That I think it harkens to the implicitness. Right.
Of being a father. Right. In other words, someone someone once said, I don't remember who it was, someone once said that parenting is that thing that happens when you're not thinking about parenting.
Yeah. Yeah. There's an Italian author, Umberto Eco, who said specifically about men is like what we become as men, like what we become has to do with what our fathers taught us when they weren't trying to teach us anything.
Yeah. In those moments, like we actually really learn so much. And when you flip that back around the impact that being a parent, in particular being a dad, because, you know, you could argue we're pretty, we're pretty secondary or tertiary to the whole process.
I mean, it can't happen without us. Yeah. But, you know, two minutes later, we're not needed in any particular way biologically.
And yet we as a society, we father, we're involved, especially in the Western society. We have marriage and, you know, we're raising children in a like a monogamous sort of way. Yeah.
How is it that there is not more depth of conversation around that, which is really the whole what hit me and why I wanted to start this project. And you and I are people that do talk a lot about a lot of things that matter. And yet somehow that fathering isn't really a big part of it.
So what would it be like for us to just talk about it? And so especially given that conversation is one of the main ways that wisdom is passed, passed along. Right.
So you have two sons. So tell me about your kids. So I have a 22-year-old boy.
His name's Forrest. And I have a boy. He's a boy, huh?
He's actually a man now. He's a fucking man. He really is.
He really is. And a four-year-old boy named Teague. Teague Orion Sankstock.
And so I have a whole 18 years with one. And then we started again when I was, you know, had a kid basically when I was 50. Okay.
Crazy. So let's pull this two apart. And what was it like for you?
What did it mean to you to become a dad when Forrest was born? What was that like? And then now with Teague?
Well, I think, you know, I think the relationship with my ex-wife had a lot to do with it, obviously. Right. However, I would say with Forrest, I remember the moment he was born and you could kind of see him.
And what I wasn't expecting, right, but I really felt was like, it's like there's a hymn. There's a hymn. Like right away, there's like a nature or something.
It's really difficult to put that into words because actually they're like an amoeba, right? They're literally like the most useless, helpless, dependent thing in the universe at that age, right? At zero.
I just thought about like, you met your son before he ever took his first breath. Like that's an interesting, like you're right. There's a nothingness there.
But yet, he's there. There's someone there already. Yeah, it's like a hum.
It's like a certain hum, right? Like, it's like he's just Forrest. And I felt that the moment I could see him with my eyes.
And also, the birth was, man, the first time I went through that birth process, like I'd never seen or been in a birth process before. And I got so much respect, right, for a woman's ability to go through that, right? There's a certain point where she was in the tub, right?
Like in the water. And she's just like this. She's like, hum, hum, hum.
And I'm sitting there and I'm just like, I really got this sense of like, that is other right there. She is other in the most profound sense. Like, I really got that that's something I will never ever experience.
And it was like a deep respect for, for whatever that was, right? You know, like, like this, this relationship to pain for the sake of something, giving birth to it. Like, there was something really, really not me, right, but her.
And I think that, that gave me a ton of respect, right, for her and for the birth process. And like, I felt like I was through that whole birth, I was like, in somehow like have a almost a pious service. I was like called, like anything that you need, anything you need, but like this, this also this awareness that there's something there that like, I will never experience.
And there's like no equivalent. Yeah, as a man. Yeah.
Yeah, totally. Totally. What about when, when Teague was born?
What, what was, what was, what was true for you around that? Well, he, we ended up doing a c-section. So it was like a little bit, a little bit different.
However, and he had some, he had some issues. So he was taken to, you know, intensive care and like held there for about, about a week. We were with him about a week.
And it was interesting that it's kind of the same thing, like there's something, there's a hum to him, right? And whatever that is, is just so, it's mysterious to me in a way that's like draws me into it, right? Like I wonder about it.
It brings a lot of wonder to me. And in some sense, there's this experience often with Teague and it happened also with Forrest, right? Why I just find myself like gazing at him, like in this, he's kind of, it's kind of like at some level, like gazing at him and going like, okay, wait a minute.
There was like this whole period. You didn't exist. And now here you are sitting there, look, looking at me, you know, trying to talk about this letter that he's infatuated with, right?
Like, it's like, there's something about that. That's just like, I can't, my mind can't comprehend. And it just, I noticed I dwell in that relationship with him a lot.
Like, it's almost like, you know, there's that way when you're, when you have a fire outside going, right? You can't not look at the fire. So of all the things that you're fascinated by, and there's so many things you're fascinated by, how do you explain the fascination of just being able to look at like a child and just not even have thought like to be, to be just experiencing it?
How do you, how do you explain that? Right, right. Well, it's like I said to Breanne the other day, because we often find ourselves just sitting doing that together.
I mean, Breanne has this ecstatic relationship with him. Like she's in wonder, literally, I'd say like, like 65, 75% of the time, she's in a state of wonder, right, about, yeah, with tea. And as we were looking at him, watching him learn how to swim, which he's learning, he's learning how to swim his own way, right?
Like, we tried doing lessons and stuff like that. And he just is not into anything he's supposed to do. So he's figured this out, and he can do it forever.
And he just giggles the whole time, right in the water. And we're just both looking at this. And I was like, I said something like, yeah, it's really, really difficult to be an atheist.
And he holds and look at Teague.
[Speaker 2] (11:52 - 11:53)
I got it.
[Speaker 1] (11:53 - 16:05)
You're reminding me, like, when when a lot of people live, he was born, and then we came in, I didn't have a television, we just sit around, we were like, we just watch baby TV. You just sit there was more entertaining than anything I ever saw in programming. And kind of nothing's happening.
That's the other part. It's so hard to wrap my head around what I was even watching. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What's special about that relationship is that we have a relationship to when they weren't, right? We have a whole, there's a whole world that they weren't. And, and so you're looking at them.
And in some, in some sense, I think there's, there's this way that that not, right, that, that nothing, right? Being a parent, especially, I think you can probably, this could probably happen with anything, it ought to happen with most things, right? Where there's this open nothing that we see first, and then their face emerges out of it, right?
Giggling or talking or whatever it is. And there's just a mystery there that's so compelling, and, and so evocative of, I would say some of the best parts of ourselves, it's definitely some of the best parts of me, right? It evokes, you know, wonder, playfulness, right?
A deep felt sense of meaning. Incredible things. Yeah.
As you were saying that the idea that, that you, you were in relationship with both your kids before they were born, but also, you know, there's, it made me think of like, there's the baby will come into the world, either through your intention, like let's have a baby, let's try to have a baby, or, oh, shit, we're pregnant. How did that happen? The idea that they emerge kind of either way, and how much your intention has to do with it is, is an interesting sort of consideration.
Yeah, it's kind of like, I could want a boy, but I couldn't want Teague, right? Yeah. So much of being a father with him is, is in some sense, like, and this is kind of natural too, it's like, it's, in some sense is really catching, noticing his uniqueness, his particular, you know, singularity in the, in the sense that, that just, he can't not be.
And then talking about it, and talking about it with, with Brianne, we talk, like most of our conversations are talking about that, you know, this kind of little being that's emerging, and how peculiar he is, and, you know, making connections with like how I was when I was a kid, and the similarities are really haunting at times. And the same, that was the same thing with forest, right? And, and I think that something about parenthood that probably is pretty natural, right, is, is in some sense, there's a mid, there's a midwife thing, an agent, right?
Into being, right? A sovereign person into being, right? Like, that's, and I think that has so much to do with kind of noting their uniqueness, and being struck by it, and bringing it to language, and, you know, pointing it out, and relating to it, and beholding it.
Yeah. When, when Tammy was pregnant with Olivia, I was 100% convinced we're gonna have a boy, like, not even like I think, or I want, I knew it. And then Olivia's born, I was like, I mean, I didn't have sisters, I didn't know, and I was like, shit, I have a girl, I have no idea how to be a dad to a girl.
And then, and then I became, you know, a girl dad. And then when she was pregnant with Leo, I was like, oh, we're definitely having another girl. And then he's born, I was like, I don't have the first idea how to be a dad to a boy.
[Speaker 2] (16:05 - 16:07)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[Speaker 1] (16:07 - 34:13)
And then, and then you do. And so a lot of it is these, one of the things that I'm, I would love to explore is this idea of like, where ideas, or our ideas about fatherhood came from, like, before we became a dad, the thought I had, and, you know, there's going to be an inexplicable connection between our dads, and who we become as dads. And so, like, what about, what are your thoughts in terms of where your ideas about fatherhood came from, and connection to your dad, relationship with your dad, like, what's that, what was all that like?
That's a big question. That's a big question. We have time.
Well, first of all, I mean, first of all, I want to say it's like, my dad's really, I find my dad to be an extraordinary human being. Like, he's, he's quite bright. He's really articulate.
And he's super funny. And he's always been that way. And I think he has this huge heart, right, that expresses itself.
Like, he's, he was, he's recovering alcoholic. He got sober when I was 12. So he's like, I don't know, he's been sober for, you know, years and years and years, and really dove deep into Alcoholics Anonymous, right?
And there's something, there's something about sharing and sponsoring people that really hit a sweet spot for my dad. And so he really became someone in service, right? And he is like, I hear all the time, you know, people, people encountering him change their life.
So I would say that, like, first of all, my dad probably when he got sober, that was probably the greatest gift anybody gave me. Right? What was it like before?
He grew up in a alcoholic, violent environment. He had two older brothers, and the mother was, the mother was the one that was abusive. And the father just kind of like, knelt it into the background, right?
And the mother, and I always got this sense that she, something about my dad really had her target him. And I sense that there was like a level of abuse that involved a lot of humiliation, right? Like, I think he had two older brothers, you know, and those, I noticed with my uncles, those relationships are pretty complicated, right?
Because I think there's a lot of looking up to them, but also, you know, a jealousy of them. There's something around that. And I would just imagine that being beaten by his mother had an element of, like, deep humiliation, right?
And so I would say that he, out of that, definitely, like, had these kind of narcissistic, you know, tendencies. Like, there'd be, I think, a lot of narcissistic rage. And what I mean by that is, like, you know, if I'm not mirrored, right, by the other, in the way that I need you to see me, right?
I experience rage, right? And so, growing up, my dad was, he was, he was, he was, like, rage was, like, just around the corner at any second, right? I used to remember, I used to remember when I was, like, in fourth grade, and he, like, he came home, I could, I could tell what kind of mood he was in, based on how he pulled into the driveway.
Like, some level of vigilance and attention was always on him, because if there was, like, you know, how I like to put it, it's like, if, if there was anything that possibly could maybe insinuate at some level that he was wrong, he would attack. And so there was a lot of, there was a lot of this experience of being, like, it would be, it would be a moment where, you know, he's there, we're talking, and then something hits him, and he just, he goes away, and someone else shows up. And it's like, this, and it has just nothing but benevolence for you.
And so, there would be, you know, lots of experiences of, like, him, you know, screaming at me, asking me questions, right? And being in this fucking place where I remember that, like, you were fucked if you answered the question, right? And you were fucked if you didn't answer the question, right?
And he was super smart. So he had these elaborate, like, ways of kind of, you know, trapping you, right? And, and then if like, and then I would cry, and the crying would make it worse.
And like, he was not physically abusive with me. But it was, that was, that was really present. He was physically abusive with my mom.
Most of this is when he was drinking, right? You know, he would go into a rage with my mother, right? And my mother, I think would become his mother, right?
Right. And, and I think he would just in that state, he would, he would decker and pull her fingers back and like, Jesus, this, like, all kinds, all kinds of things. And I would, I would, I was in a position of kind of trying to mediate that.
I remember trying to, like, time my cry, right, as you were doing that, because I would get this sense where I could kind of tell, like, he'd get so escalated, right, as he's, like, hitting her or beating her or doing whatever that, that he's gonna kill her, like, it kind of get that, that sense. And then I would like do something that would cry or, you know, and they'd stop and kind of distract, like, come and console me and like, then go back out and do it again. So there was a lot of, you know, there was, there was that, you know, it's funny that I've been thinking a lot lately about that, that turn, right, where it's like, he's gone, and someone else is there, right?
That look in his eyes. It's like that moment is this, at least for me, was this experience of like a crack in it, like a crack in being, like, it felt like, it felt like, yeah, that was a crack in, in the source of my existence, right? Yeah, in a big way.
And you, and you had an experience of like, two completely different people, like a total Jekyll and Hyde. Yeah, it was kind of like that. Yeah, it was kind of like that.
Yeah, yeah, having that experience of just this completely different personality. I mean, it's such an interesting, you know, reference. So we all know Jekyll and Hyde, and it's literature.
But when you think about it, it's like, it's actually not that extraordinary of a psychological condition. Like, it's actually something like alcohol could easily trigger that, or stress or anxiety or anything in general. So, dude, it sounds terrifying to grow up in that.
And then you said you got sober when you were 12. So what led to that? Basically, what happened was my mom, we owned a family business.
My grandfather is from Germany. He was an apprentice to be a tailor, like, so he was really, you know, a tailor. And then he moved, he moved to Chicago and started huff cleaners, right?
So it's like a family business. It had an enormous reputation like Chuck Comiskey used to take his, you know, fly his clothes in there. And my, you know, grandpa would tailor make suits and, you know, is this whole, is this whole, you know, deep family thing.
And then my parents bought it in the 80s. And they basically, I mean, I think that business was clearing $500,000 a year cash. And, and in the middle of it, and this is the 80s.
So Coke is, you know, Coke is like the thing, right? There was always, there was always, you know, it's like my mom had her Coke, my dad had his Coke, and then they had their Coke, right? It was like, and it was, she used to, they used to use this, these, these plastic trays that you get from like TV dinners.
And they, and they were just all over the house with little piles of Coke. And wow, that was just, yeah, did you as a kid understand what that was? No, I don't think so.
It just was like, it was just part of one of the features of, of my life. It never really registered to me that they did drugs, right? So basically, my, what happened was, you know, my dad, like a year into owning the business, just decided to leave.
And he wanted, and he joined, he went to Second City, and he was going to find, he was going to, he was going to be a comedian. Second City is, you know, has a lot to do, I think, with Saturday Night Live and stuff like that. So he's really funny.
And so he jumped into that. But he didn't even talk to my mom about it. He just like, this is what I'm going to do.
And she ended up with the whole thing in her lap. And then he goes off, you know, he goes off to, to do a circuit, right? And travels are all around the United States and Canada and all this kind of stuff.
Didn't, you know, to insult her or anything like that. Right? Oh my God.
So as you can imagine, my mom was quite pissed. And so she got a little crazy about that. And so she basically had this mythology, you could say, you know, in her, you know, in her imagination, that when she got a bill in the mail, she had this, this garbage bag in the attic.
And if she took that bill and she put it in, in the attic, in the garbage thing, it didn't exist. So four years later, right? And I remember, I remember this day, like, like a Christ, it was like, I can remember everything about this day, because the phone rings, Billie Jean was played on the radio.
That was, you know, Billie Jean's 1982, I think, right? I just remember that was that song was on, right? My dad answered the phone.
And I hear this, you know, which is common that, you know, like, hey, fucking hangs up, right? So this is four years, right? And he calls my mom downstairs, and he says, Carol, that was, that was the IRS.
And if what they're saying is actually true, I will kill you. Right? And I was, you know, and you could feel that it was like a crack that just went through everything.
And my mom is totally, like, terrified, right? And then we go off to this, like, family vacation thing for that weekend. And essentially, they get back, we get back my mom, you know, my mom, you know, where she's talking to me about like, like, moving to California and getting away from my dad and, you know, it was just it got so fucking crazy, right?
And so in, in all of that, that was like the opening, right, for, for them going into recovery. And, and it wasn't that long after that, then my mom went to a treatment center. And then after the treatment center, and she got out, and my dad started going to meetings and getting sober.
And, and they realized that they probably couldn't stay sober in Chicago. So we moved to where a friend was in, in cottonwood, Arizona. And that move, right was so I look back at that now.
And that move out of Chicago to Arizona was so painfully transformative for me as a kid, right? The one safe spot in the universe was with my grandfather, I had an amazing relationship with my grandfather, I think my grant, my grandpa kind of sensed what was happening. And he just poured, him and my grandma just kind of poured themselves into me.
So I spent a lot of time with him. And I think a lot of fathering took place through my grandfather, right? And so I had no language for this at the time, but leaving Chicago meant leaving, like the only safe spot in the universe.
And there's only one thing that's worse than a inactive drinking alcoholic, it's, it's a, it's a sober one, right? So it's like, I'm in the car with the two of them, and they're just, you know, it was, it was in an I would have these experiences, I would feel so it was, it's funny, I, it's, it's not now I understand it to be what I was experiencing was existential anxiety. It would overtake me.
And I would just start crying. And I couldn't explain why. And I was not, I never felt safe with my parents to reveal myself, right?
Wow. So I just really bottled that up. But inside, you know, I kind of developed, I would say this, this obsessive compulsive kind of repetitive thinking that would start to happen.
And I think, I think now about that, and I think what I was doing was my being was kind of like, like creating a cognitive raft, right? Like, and, and to kind of keep me afloat, and it would be these repetitive thoughts and these fears and all it was very intricate. And then we moved to Arizona, and, and, and in Arizona, I distinctively, they got really involved in a, in a, right?
And I remember there was this day where I think that they were either having a meeting on our porch, or they were just a bunch of their friends were over talking and tuning into that conversation that they were having. And I would say was like, I think what I saw was the first conversation that wasn't about like, it wasn't idle talk, right? It wasn't about, it wasn't about like, what we're going to do and who should do it and how should we do it and who has it and this is what I have and right that, you know, that idle talk, right?
And instead, I experienced people disclosing themselves, and then responding to that disclosure, right? And a mute is really interesting because it's like, I distinctively remember that that was a different universe, that wasn't just a change. What they were doing was a, that was a different, that was a different dimension, right?
That they were opening up. And I would, like, and I would feel this, you know, it's interesting because I would feel, I felt that, you know, this bottom dropping out sensation in my, like, in my solar plexus, right? I could feel that and then I could feel the tone of what I was seeing in that conversation and I felt that they were connected in some way.
And I was like, all right. And I just turned towards and I joined them and I basically haven't come out for 40 years. Right.
Right. Yeah. Well, two things.
I mean, so much about that, Jesus. But one, I'm imagining the inquisitive kid that you were, where you, you were also like, must have gone like, huh, this must be how they talk in Arizona versus how they talk in Chicago. Right.
Something like your mind trying to make sense of what the fuck is different. And maybe it's where we live. So all of that, like this, you know, we started with like, okay, we are raised in a particular way, we have a particular upbringing, and then we wind up sitting in the position of being that, doing the upbringing.
And what comes through, what came through in all that for you?
[Speaker 2] (34:13 - 34:14)
What decision did you make?
[Speaker 1] (34:15 - 36:29)
Like, how did you, how did you show up and what did you bring into being a dad? Yeah. The first time with Forrest, I remember saying a lot like, I don't feel like I know what to do regarding being a father, but I feel like I have, I know what not to do.
Right? Like, yeah. And I remember kind of consciously thinking about, yeah, if we just don't shame him, right?
If we just don't make him wrong and shame him, like discipline him, right? Like, hold boundaries. But by shame, I mean, like, I say something to you or I insinuate like something fundamental about your being, right, is wrong, or disturbed, or not well, not good.
Right. And I thought I just had this sense, like, you know, I guess just from my own experience that I was like, I would imagine like, if you just don't do that, right? Something good will come out of that, right?
Like, they'll just probably become a person, right? On their own. So I would say that that was my conscious kind of attitude and the way that I talked about it was, yeah, was that sense of like, like, making sure not doing a lot of things and responding really different, right?
That's why I would say was like, at the beginning was really fundamental for me. Alright, so then nature versus nurture, you know, as like, you can have thoughts about it, and then you raise kids. And then when you raise kids, you're like, now you have actual, like, evidence, not a gigantic pool of evidence, but you watch it.
So in your experience, and you know, it's a little early with tea, maybe not, but like, certainly seen the entire growth of forest, what's your, what's your belief on that? That like, how much of it is nature? How much of his nurture?
What do you, what do you get to do, not do?
[Speaker 2] (36:29 - 36:30)
Totally.
[Speaker 1] (36:30 - 39:10)
I've been thinking about that a lot. I would say before, before being a father, I put a lot on nurture. Right?
Like, like, in a big way, I really thought like most of it is about nurture. Now, having been a father, I feel almost the opposite. Yeah, there's, there's a him, right, that, that's going to unfold.
And there's, that we, I can relate to that, right? And how I relate to that matters, big time, right? Like, however, there's something fundamental is like, it's in some senses, none of my business, right?
In a certain way. And it's more about, it's more about bringing that out. Right?
Like really like thinking about, I think that's my orientation is like, is like really getting his uniqueness into the world. Right? Which is when we think about the world, right?
Like, basically, and I think this is one of the big differences between mothering and fathering is that for I noticed for me, I want to make it as hard as possible for him. Say more about that. So for example, he, he's teaching himself how to swim.
Right? And we've given him swim lessons that he doesn't want to like he, he doesn't, he don't want to do any of this. So he's out there.
He's out there. And it grabbed him. Right?
It was a challenge. Right? It was a challenge.
He had a lot of fear about what is something going on with water. And it was a challenge. But then there was this point where I noticed, oh, he's after it.
Like, it's inspiring to him. He's like wanting to practice. He's wanting to challenge himself.
Right? And he's pushing into more. Right?
And that seeing that was a, I just felt like I felt euphoric, because I think at some level, being able to desire to do hard things, right, or enjoy doing hard things, I think is kind of like a lot of what being a father is. The mother is, you know, the mother obviously has a lot more about nurturing and security. Right?
And like, you know, her response was like, yeah, that's great. But just make sure you're watching them.
[Speaker 2] (39:10 - 39:10)
Right?
[Speaker 1] (39:11 - 40:12)
And so there's an impulse in me. And even when we're wrestling and playing, right, there's always this way where I, and he's doing this naturally, but I really want to tend to pushing, like pushing the limits. Right?
Like finding something he's interested in and like feeling him reach for it, like want it. Right? And it's difficult to do it.
And he's got to like, fold on and get back up. Right? That to me, I think for a man, right, is essentially the world.
That's how we go out into the world. Right? The world is an enormous challenge.
And it's got, there's a reality to it. I have an intention and the world just doesn't go, okay, here you go. Right?
You know, if it does, you're like, I'm not interested in that. Yep.
[Speaker 2] (40:13 - 40:13)
Yeah.
[Speaker 1] (40:14 - 44:19)
So my sense is like, that's it. That's the, that's at the core of being a father. Right?
So I want to relate that to, you know, David dataism around masculine versus the feminine energies. So it feels like that's what you're talking about is that there's a, there's a particular kind of an understanding about masculine that, that a man has before becoming a dad. And then there's a different relationship with the masculine after.
Did you, do you, do you experience, have you experienced that? And like, what, what do you think that becoming a dad has taught you about the masculine? Right?
It's instinctual. Right? Is, man, I love it when he falls down and he bleeds.
Like, like, I want to celebrate it. Right? Like, you know, yeah, totally.
It's, it's really about this push. It's, I think that's one of the main difference. And it's really a different instinct for, for my wife, Brienne.
Right? She's, she's wanting to like, console and cuddle, right? In a certain sense, which that is totally needed.
Right? Right. However, I noticed I feel very good.
I'm like, oh, good. Right? He's like, that was good.
And I'm like, I pointed out, I was like, congratulations. That's the trophy right there. Yeah.
Yeah. And you're, yeah, that balancing against that super nurturing, just loving, make sure you're safe at all costs. Like, you know, the, that goofy, you know, the goofy, like, caricature of a, of a dumb ass dad who's like the kid hurts himself and you're like, just some rub some dirt on it.
I went, you know, like, especially with Leo. Yeah. Livia too, but just like, I noticed how much, you know, Tammy was, had that whole feminine, caring four side covered.
And I was like, well, I guess I don't really need to do anything here. It's all fine. Or how much fun it would be to play with the other side of it.
And I'm literally like, I just started saying it as a joke, like rub dirt in it. But then like, it eventually became like, fucking rub some dirt on it. Like, it's fine.
You know, like that. There's something, and I don't even know what that means to rub dirt in it, but it's Sophie. Fun to say.
There's this pushing, right? Like move towards the thing that's difficult and want it, right? That and nurturing it.
And like, so right now with Teague, it's all about wrestling, which I love. And I think a lot of this has to do with, you know, as they get older, right? At some point with the boys, you start to feel there's a, like an aggression that they start to have.
And I think that aggression is so awesome, right? But it does need to be socialized, right? And if you beat it out of them, right?
Like, basically, he'll never be respected, right? I think people who have a, have integrated, right? They're like, hypothalamus, go conquer the world.
Like, you know, all that kind of testosterone energy. If they've integrated and been socialized in a good way with it, I think that what that happens is it endows you with a lot of respect, right? From other people.
It's like, it's because you could, you can kind of feel it because it's, if I'm in conversation with you, at some part of me knows, right? Like at the end of the day, if we cross some line, you'd go ape shit, right? Like, I think we do that instinctively.
And when I don't feel that sense, especially with a man, I notice I don't respect him.
[Speaker 2] (44:19 - 44:20)
Interesting. Right?
[Speaker 1] (44:22 - 45:35)
And I think that there's, you know, in this, I guess the technical term is like, like, rough and tumble play. Right? It's almost my relationship with T right now.
Now he's starting, the aggression is starting to come out, which I'm loving. It's not totally out yet, right? So a lot of our interactions are me tickling him, like fucking with them.
Like, you know, and, and, and he, he like literally needs to be thrown around. He needs to be flipped over on the bed. He needs to like, like, there's something about testing limits, right?
That pushing limits and knowing where they are that I think is really instinctive. It's very physical. Was it that way with Forest too?
Oh, totally. Yeah, totally. Okay, so you and Milani split, how old was Forest?
Seven, I think. And then, and then he went and lived away from you with Milani and Aubrey and Tessa, right? So yeah, all women, and, and, and they were, they were in Atlanta, is that right?
[Speaker 2] (45:36 - 45:38)
Yeah, Atlanta.
[Speaker 1] (45:38 - 52:19)
Very far away. So yeah, that's like, how was that in terms of all this that you're talking about? And, you know, one, for you and two, that aspect of, of raising Forest in this way.
What happened then? And how did, how did that go? And what did you learn out of all that?
Within that is probably the deepest regrets in my life. I think about that a lot. And basically kind of what, you know, what was happening at the time is, you know, we split up.
At the same time, my, there was a split, there was also a kind of a breakup with a business, a business partner, which basically mean I meant I needed to start all over, right, in what I was doing. So my income was, you know, wasn't the best. And she was having a hard time finding work, you know, that made it affordable.
And so she asked for me to sign these papers that allows her to leave the state, right? Because you can't leave the state without permission. And I, and she was going to, she was going to where my mom was, right?
And her husband, John, was a really good guy. I'll have a lot of trust for him. I love my mom, right?
Like, so there was a sense of just being there and around them would be fine and good and all that. And I was like, in such a, I mean, I was, I felt like I was in such kind of a week, like, like I was really like, that was a dark time in my life, right? And so I didn't feel super, super rooted or grounded or anything like that.
So all that was, you know, going on. And, and I signed, I signed, I gave permission and I signed the papers. And man, I wish, I actually wish I didn't do that.
Like that, it's like, I, I look back on that now and I'm like, no, like, no, he needs to be around his dad, right? That's like, more important than any financial consideration, any of that kind of stuff, right? Yeah, so that's a big, that's a big one for me.
Like I can, as I'm talking about it, I just, I can kind of feel the sense of like, there's like, kind of tears in the back of my eyes, there's like a heaviness in my chest. And that, you know, that really obviously changed our relationship deeply. And I would start, I would go out and visit them.
I still go out and visit them, like on a pretty regular basis. And it's interesting because there is though, at the same time, there's something about where moving from, like, our relationship being a daily, a daily kind of routine and, you know, at that level to a visit. I think that it's interesting because what that did afford though, was when we would be together, he got like 100% of me, right?
Like where it's normal life, like there's so many things on your mind and you're juggling all this and there's logistics and all this kind of stuff, right? But like when I would go visit him, it was like just him and I, right? And so that I think was, there was something special about that.
Like I think it was really something special about that. Now he didn't, he didn't get the daily, because I think a lot of parenting has to do with a deep kind of mimicry, right? Attunement that's happens at a silent level, right?
And so there wasn't that, but there was this kind of eye, these intense eye and eye relationships. And, you know, Forrest, Forrest is a trip. But like most of what we do is like have these deep philosophical, you know, Forrest confessing all these strange thoughts that he has and like where that's headed and what he thinks about things and like, we can do that for hours, right?
And that's a really, really special connection that we have there. He wrote, in fact, he wrote me on my birthday, I think it was last year, he said, and I think this really, this really said that it's like he says, you know, Dad, you've given me the greatest gift of all. Like you've given me my perspective.
Your perspective grants how you see, how you listen, right? The way you listen, right? And forms your whole reality.
Yeah, forms your whole reality. Given my sensibility and like, you know, I read a lot of philosophy and I have a YouTube channel talking to philosophers and, you know, there's a poetic, there's a poetic reverent thing that calls me to those things, right? And there always has been and relating about it has been so important to me.
It's rare, right? But I really felt that that got expressed with Forrest, right? And he savored it, right?
And he had an inclination on his own, right, to do that. And I think we've met and like have just bonded, right? In a pretty profound way, yeah.
And so in some sense, I think that like visiting him and having periods of time, like I'd go there for like a week and just and then he would just move in like with me for a week and then or a weekend or whatever it was. And I think that really did afford, you know, a lot of this sense of perspective and engaging in dialogue and being, you know, being in that place. I don't know if it would happen in the same way, right?
It's an interesting, you know, thing you're posing, which is, you know, is what we impart upon our children, the little things that happen just sort of an ongoing basis, or is it the intentional actions that you do inside of a shorter period of time? And I think the answer is probably both, you know, and whatever you got, you know, like we all get different different bites at the apple and, you know, make the most of whatever you have. Guy, I definitely want to do this again with you.
[Speaker 2] (52:19 - 52:21)
There's so much more.
[Speaker 1] (52:21 - 55:44)
Yeah, we just got started. I know there's so much more. We just got started.
You know, who this is for, right? This is for, it's for you and me before we became dads. Yeah, like I really do feel like the opportunity for men to be contemplating and thinking about these things prior to becoming a dad.
One whole area that I, you know, that I want to talk to you about is the idea of legacy, you know, like men often, especially the older they get, start talking about legacy. And I'm like, to me, it's the fucking most narcissistic ego maniacal bullshit. Like, how are people going to remember me?
But like, you're not important. You know, in the long run, you're going to be forgotten like everything else. You're going to be, you're going to become excrement.
But I do feel like a legacy that dads can really take seriously is what we do to end generational trauma. And the ability to do that before you become a dad, not like clean it up, like, you know, as you go, like you and I have done. But knowing that this, you know, that we're speaking to people who have yet or are like brand new dads, like what advice would you give to a brand new dad?
It's like my advice is do whatever it is that affords you to be that wonder. Be the root of your parenting. Be there at the birth.
Like, be with every part of it. Right. And keep in mind, not just, you know, and there's a lot of like, there is a lot of repetition.
There's lots of like day in, day out and logistics. And there's tons of that stuff. And through that, even in the even in the repetitive stuff, at the same time, hold that there's something there is like an extraordinary like cosmological event you're undergoing and seeing and participating with.
Right. You're taught, you're lucky looking at it. As far as we know, the only beings that can become conscious of being right, like, and we are, we are midwifing that.
Right. Like, I would say like, whatever it is that for you affords that wonder be the basis of being a father. Do that.
Yeah, that sounds perfect. Yeah, thank you, guy. Thank you, sir.
Love you, brother. Awesome. Let's do it again.
Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the DAB manual podcast. If you liked it, please leave us a rating or subscribe to our YouTube channel. If you really liked it, please share it with a dad you love.
I'm looking to grow a community of fathers who are ready to change the world. And I need your help to do that. And if you got questions or topics you want me to explore, email them to me at the DAB manual at gmail.com.
I would love to answer your questions on our next episode. Until next time, I'm Tony Cooper, and this is the DAB manual podcast.