Kaley:
Hello, everyone. Thanks for tuning in to The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast, where we share biblical Truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Kaley Olson, and I'm here with my friend and my co-host for today Shae Hill.
Shae:
Hey, Kaley. I'm so excited about today's episode because here's what we're going to talk about. We are going to talk about the tension that we carry as believers who follow Jesus knowing that this world is not our forever home but trying to figure out how we can live with purpose and live on mission while we're here on earth right now.
Kaley:
That's amazing. I love that.
Shae:
I'm super excited about it.
Kaley:
I want to dive in right now, but we have to wait just a minute.
Shae:
We do have to wait. This conversation was great. I got to sit in on the teaching episode with Joel and our other friend Victoria, and so I'm really excited for what our friends have in store for today.
Kaley:
Well, I love these episodes because it's teaching, but it's also a lot of real-time conversation mixed in because Joel is a theological expert that we can ask a lot of questions for. But at Proverbs, a lot of us have really dug in and done our own research, and so that's why I'm excited Victoria is here because she's really passionate —
Shae:
Me too.
Kaley:
— too, about this topic. And it's actually what our next First 5 study is about. It's called Where Do I Belong? Finding Our True Home Through the Study of Exile in the Bible, and it starts on September 9 for free in the First 5 mobile app. So, guys, if you don't already have the app, this is your friendly reminder that it can be yours for free and works on any smartphone.
Shae:
That's amazing. And also, we created some additional video content for Where Do I Belong? And we'd like to give you access to one free video from Joel. It's on the subject of “Mountaintops and Meeting With God.” And you can watch this video by clicking the link in our show notes.
Kaley:
Let me just give a little bit of color to those videos too.
Shae:
Yes, please do.
Kaley:
Our team, when we were writing the content for Where Do I Belong? ... This is going to sound a little ... not a little biblical but very biblical. It's on the topic of exile. And we called it Exilic Life, which is why we obviously had to change the title to Where Do I Belong? But as our team was doing research for this topic, they found out that there was so much more content than what they had room to put in the app or to put in the study guide that you can purchase along with reading it in the app.
And so we decided to create an additional video for each week of the study that you can get access to whenever you purchase a study guide. But one of those videos is what we're making available for free. And so they're a little bit more theological. They're more of a theological deep dive, I would say, than a topic like this podcast. And so if that interests you and you want to learn more from Dr. Joel on “Mountaintops and Meeting With God” and what the Bible has to say about that and where you can find it, then this video would be really interesting for you.
Shae:
I would say if you enjoy following Joel on Instagram or anything that he has talked about on the podcast before, you would love any of this teaching content. And to my knowledge, we've never really done this before with any of our study guides. And so you get so much when you purchase your copy of the study guides because you get all of those videos for free.
Kaley:
Yeah.
Shae:
But we're going to go ahead and give you one.
Kaley:
Yeah, just get the one for free.
Shae:
Yeah, just go ahead and get the one by going to our show notes, for sure.
Kaley:
And then see if you want the rest. For sure, but before we get into the episode, I do have to let you guys know about our sponsor for today's episode called Chosen Care. This is an organization that comes alongside parents and caregivers of children who have experienced trauma, largely foster and adoptive parents, to help them lead real change in their families. Chosen Care equips parents and caregivers to foster meaningful connection with their children, which research shows is the only way to effectively help children heal from trauma and therefore bring peace to their homes.
Proverbs 31 is honored to partner with Chosen Care because we know that so many of you listening might be foster or adoptive parents. And if you're not, chances are [you know] someone who is. Side though, we've got a friend in the studio who just joined our staff, who is past foster care [and] who is now a legal guardian. And so really, they are closer than you might even recognize, and they need your help. So Chosen Care is an organization we trust because they love the Lord and are for the family, and being a foster or adoptive parent is something you cannot do without the right support.
We'd love for you to take a moment to learn more about Chosen Care and prayerfully consider offering your support so they can continue to make a difference. They're on a mission to help 100,000 people heal from trauma, and they want you to be a part of their path to healing. Join the 100K movement today at chosen.care/100K or click the link in the show notes. Now on to the show.
Shae:
Welcome to The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast. My name is Shae Hill, and I'm so happy to be with you today. Joel, we've been having some conversations over the last couple of months, where we've been tackling a question and diving into all the theological stuff, and I've been learning so much from you. It's been super fun. But today we have a very special guest with us.
Joel:
I'm so excited. Let's go.
Shae:
Victoria, say “hi” to the podcast.
Victoria:
Hi.
Shae:
Hello.
Victoria:
Excited to be here.
Shae:
Thanks for being with us. Will you tell our listeners a little bit about you, what you do at Proverbs, all that good stuff?
Victoria:
Yeah. I'd be glad to. Yeah. So again, my name's Victoria. I am our producer here, so I'm actually normally on the other side of the camera or the microphone, I guess, if you're listening on the podcast. But yeah, I'm excited to be here. Sometimes my job ... I get to help just have conversations about content and what we're going to discuss on the podcast and on YouTube. And this was a topic that I feel really passionate about and I feel like I've been studying for the last several years. And, so Joel and Shae were very gracious enough to invite me and let me crash. So yeah, thanks for letting me crash the “Ask a Theologian” —
Shae:
Thanks for being here.
Joel:
Victoria's being so humble right now, so let me just —
Shae:
She is.
Joel:
Let me ask a few —
Shae:
I know. I was like, "Who's going to gas her up first? Me or you?"
Joel:
Let me go first.
Shae:
Yeah, go ahead.
Joel:
And then you add more gasoline on top of the gasoline that we're going to add on to. We literally could not ... honestly, Victoria ... we could not do the things that we do, the ability to have order and flow. God has gifted you with just a brilliant mind. She also has a very difficult task of reigning in creatives. So if you can imagine the Therapy & Theology podcast, we would not be able to do the Therapy & Theology podcast with Lysa, Jim and I were it not for Victoria's ability to really schedule that out. And then the other thing that I don't think sometimes people know about you is like you're a legit theologian. You read well; you always have these amazing quotes. You're always, even before episodes, you'll ask great questions, and you're like, "Oh, I was reading this." And so I'm so excited for this conversation for people to see the theologian's side of you.
Victoria:
Oh, thank you.
Shae:
Exactly. You're very creative, even though you also are really blessed with systems, sometimes I feel like you have to be the Therapy & Theology hall monitor, where you're like, "Hey, guys, get in line. It's time."
Victoria:
The hall monitor?
Joel:
The hall monitors used to always get me in trouble. So, you know. That's a very good analogy.
Shae: Now Victoria has to keep you in line. Here we are. But I think it's such a unique pairing to have someone that's so gifted in organizations and systems but also so creative. So you're just a jack of all trades.
Victoria:
Oh, gosh. Thanks, y'all.
Shae:
Soak it up.
Victoria:
I was not expecting to just get gassed up.
Joel:
World traveler. World traveling.
Shae:
World traveler.
Victoria:
Oh, yeah. I did just get back from France.
Joel:
I mean, good night.
Victoria:
Yeah. Wow. Thanks, y'all. I feel like 10 feet tall. This is great.
Shae:
We should've recorded this in France. In hindsight, that would've been fun.
Victoria:
Next time. “Ask a theologian” in France. Well, thanks, y'all. That's very kind.
Shae:
Thanks for being here.
Victoria:
Very kind.
Shae:
Like you said, you were really passionate about the topic that we're going to discuss today. And so before we get into all the things, I feel like I'm here with two theologians today. So this is really ask my theologians. I want to make sure I set up our conversation really well. And so today we're going to talk about the struggle, honestly, both inward and outward of being a Christian who lives on earth. So if you're listening to this and you're a Christian, then that is you. This conversation applies to you. Maybe you've heard the commonly used phrase of, “we're in the world, but we're not of it.” But what does that really mean?
And is that really true? And what does it look like not to be attached to earth, to hold on to the things of earth with closed hands and really tightly holding on almost like a hoarder of things on earth. What does it look like not to live like that but also to be a steward, someone that lives purposefully while they're here on this side of eternity? So what would that healthy attachment or detachment, however you want to look at it, to earth as believers look like? And that's what we're going to talk about today.
Joel:
Yeah, that's so good, Shae. I was reading the other day, and I believe it was the first time I read this idea was from N.T. Wright, and he presented a few kind of core questions, and I think for our conversation that will be helpful to start with these kind of core questions that I think if we stripped it down and got to the foundation that all of us are really struggling with and really the way we think about these questions, the way we answer these questions are going to determine really the actions that we make and the decisions that we make moving forward.
So here are these three fundamental questions. The first question is who are we? Have you ever thought about that? Got up in the morning and you're just like, who actually am I right now?
Victoria:
Only when I'm in my most existential-crisis mode.
Joel:
Right. So it's like, OK —
Shae:
Who am I? What is life?
Victoria:
Right.
Joel:
Yeah, exactly. So OK, who are we? The next thing is why are we here? Why? That’s big. So what am I supposed to do? Why am I here? And so if we know who are we, why are we here, then the next question is very practical. So what do we do about it? And so one of the things about the Bible, about the Scriptures, that I think is kind of important for us to frame this conversation is that the Bible is moving in three primary movements. And so here's kind of the three categories and the movements, and it actually helps us understand who we are, why we're here and what we're supposed to do.
The first movement is that God is a good God, so He creates good things. So you have creation and specifically the adjective in front of creation is “good” creation. And then you have the reality of sin, and sin breaks apart God's good creation. And so the second movement is the technical phrase would be like de-creation or uncreation that things that were good start to break apart. But here's the deal, God remains good even in the midst of the presence of sin, and a good God isn't just going to sit and allow all of these good things that He made to break apart. So He steps into creation and He provides a way for all the things that are broken apart to be put back together the way that He intended for it to be.
So the last movement is re-creation or new creation. And one of the things that happens in this movement is from all the things that are good to all the things that are broken is that in the midst of this brokenness, which is really what we're in right now, the post-Genesis 3 reality, the word or the phrase or the image that the Bible uses to describe this state of being, which I want to be so clear is not intended to be forever — it is a right now; there is an end in sight. And so we have to deal with that intention.
The image is the image of exile. The image is the image of wilderness. And just as a way to describe this, Eden is on a mountain. The mountains were the place where God and man met. Well, when Adam and Eve sin, they're sent out of the mountain, and they have to leave the Garden of Eden. Now, if you're on top of a mountain and you have to leave the Garden of Eden, well, where are you going? Down, and so the first image of Adam and Eve leaving is actually an image of exile. They're going into the wilderness. They're going into the reality of separation from God. And yet something that's kind of fascinating is that God is persistent to actually go into the wilderness with Adam and Eve and with us today because He cares about us and He loves us.
Victoria:
Wow. That's really powerful.
Shae:
It's really powerful. As we think through these three questions, is there anything else that you'd want to add to the why are we here or what are we here for, Joel?
Joel:
Yeah, I mean, why are we here and what are we here for is really this idea of 2 Corinthians 5. Paul has talked to the church in Corinth, and he says, "Hey, you and I are ambassadors of Christ," and the language is so powerful so that Christ can make His appeal in and through us.
So if Christ is making His appeal in and through us, then the next question is like, OK, so what do we do about this? So we know who we are, we know what we're here for, and now the question is what do we do about it? And then it's like, oh, how do you and I make clear the presence of God in our lives in the spaces that we're in? In our work, in our family, when we're in the car-rider line waiting to pick up our kids and life is chaotic and messy. My family's going on vacation tomorrow, and I'm already stressed out, y'all. I'm already stressed out.
Shae:
Are you specifically stressed about the packing, the car ride, the getting there?
Joel:
I'm getting more stressed as you just described all of the things that —
Shae:
You're like, "Yes."
Joel:
Yes!
Victoria:
You're like, "Oh, wait, I hadn't even thought about that."
Shae:
D — all of the above.
Joel:
All of the above. Circle the whole thing. And so here's the question —
Shae:
But you're like, "I'm going on vacation. Why should I be stressed about this?"
Joel:
Well, this is a side tangent. I'm pretty convinced that the concept of vacation only makes sense for children. For the rest of us as adults, really —
Shae:
Or adults without children?
Joel:
Yeah, maybe. But yeah, I mean that's true.
Shae:
Like Victoria and I. Yeah.
Joel:
Yeah. Well, I mean because my vacation is basically making sure my children are on vacation while I take care of them, and they have a great time.
Victoria:
See, I would call that a trip. I feel like trips and vacations are two different things.
Shae:
Yeah. You're going on a trip.
Joel:
Yeah. I'm going on a trip.
Victoria: Yeah. You're going on a trip.
Joel:
My children are going on a vacation.
Shae:
That's a good, vacation, but you are going on a trip. Yeah. That's a good perspective for you.
Joel:
And I and my wife are professional chauffeurs for my children as they're going on their vacation —
Victoria:
Activity planners.
Joel:
And we embark on a trip. Yeah.
Victoria:
Their professional activity planners.
Joel:
But here's a really important question for me that I need to think about that Britt and I will talk about is, OK, how do we show Jesus to our kids very transparently? When an hour and 15 minutes goes in, and I know the first noise I'm going to hear from the back because the kids have all gone to the bathroom ... we know, we're pro parents. We know that the first thing that we do before we do a road trip is all the kids go to the bathroom and that should give us a good three hours, at least, before the first stop. And I already know who it is. And my son ... I love you if you're hearing this, Luke ... Little Lukey Bear, he'll be like ... and here's what I actually think is happening. I actually think his two older brothers are putting him up to it because they think that he won't get in trouble.
Shae:
They're like, "You have to be the one."
Joel:
Yes. And he'll say, "Hey, Dad" —
Shae:
He's the ambassador car of the car that needs to go, yeah.
Joel:
And it's like when I'm annoyed and I'm frustrated, I'm like, "You know better!" How in that moment do I show the kindness and the compassion and the mercy of Jesus, even to my children who really are throwing me all kinds of —
Shae:
Who aren't just going to want to make a bathroom stop but are also going to ask you for a snack in the gas station.
Joel:
Exactly.
Shae:
And that's another opportunity, like you're saying, of how do I show Jesus even through this frustration or all of those opportunities? I think that's great. So would you say as we are, I guess, making our way through life here on earth, that's our primary goal or question we can ask ourselves is how can I show Jesus as an ambassador to this world, these people, through my job, all of that?
Joel:
Yeah, I think so. And I also think that we need to take Jesus' words very seriously. When Jesus teaches us how to pray, He says, the entire thing is framed this way, "on earth as it is in heaven." And so the idea is that the Kingdom of heaven is an actual Kingdom with an actual King who sits on a throne and this King and Kingdom have actual people. And every king and every kingdom has ethics, values, [and] systems. And the image that Jesus gives us is the image of the invasion, the incoming of this Kingdom onto earth as it is now.
And so the question is like, oh, when ... This happened just yesterday. I was on a flight coming home, and I'm sitting down, and there's a gal who had just gone on and, y'all ... I travel, I know how to travel compact and with the bags. I mean, sis had a bag that I don't know how she made it through TSA, but this thing was huge, and it was heavy, and she's all disheveled, and as she's walking by, we know this moment, right? It's like she's so disheveled —
Shae:
I'm like, Wait, was this me on this flight?
Victoria:
I was going to say —
Joel:
This wasn't you.
Victoria:
I have been this sis.
Shae:
This is all too familiar.
Joel:
I'm an aisle guy. You've asked this question of Lysa and I before, Shae.
Shae:
Yeah, window or aisle.
Joel:
She's a window [person]; I'm an aisle [person]. I like to have control. I like to get away. Now here's the downside of the aisle. In this situation, you're getting beat up. The bag is hitting you; the purse is hitting you. And sweet lady ... she had turned; the bag hit me in the head.
Victoria:
Oh, gosh.
Joel:
And I'm getting annoyed. And then she's got to take the suitcase, and she's got to lift it up. And I could just tell everybody else is annoyed. And I had this moment where I was just like, OK, I believe in honesty in all costs; you're a theologian. You shouldn't think this. I was like, "I can't wait to watch her struggle."
Shae:
Joel! That is so sassy.
Joel:
So I was like, "Man, I've got a headache now." And then I was like —
Shae:
Were you kind of thinking, "That's what you get for packing all that stuff?"
Victoria:
Yeah.
Joel:
And then I was like, "Ah." And so I unbuckle and say, "Hey, can I ..." She was like, "Oh." I was like, "I got it." And it was heavy. I think my bicep is still strained from trying to lift this thing and put it, but it's like, OK, how do I show in a very practical, tangible way that the Kingdom of God is invading through the people of God, even in a place like an airplane? When I don't want to do that, I'm annoyed. I'm ready to be home with my family. And yet a momentary act of kindness could be a thing that just sets the gal up for some success throughout the rest of the ... I don't know what happened before ... what's going to happen afterward. And so from a practical place, it's like, man, these are opportunities that we as image bearers of God have in order to give other people a tangible experience of what God's Kingdom is going to be like.
And when I think they experience that, it opens up a door for conversation where it's like, "Man, why'd you do that?" It's like, "Well, I really believe in what Jesus says." And now it's like, preach the gospel at all times —
Shae:
And when necessary use words.
Joel:
Yeah.
Shae:
Yeah.
Joel:
That's a horrible quote, by the way. St. Francis of Assisi actually never said that ... is the first thing. And I think the better quote is —
Shae:
This is why I never share anything.
Joel:
Is preach the gospel —
Victoria:
I love the sentiment.
Joel:
No, it's a good sentiment, but it's like —
Shae:
In my defense, you did share half the quote.
Joel:
I did share. I kind of led you into that.
Shae:
Yeah, I thought you were baiting me.
Joel:
No, preach the gospel at all times, and always use your words.
Shae:
Yeah, for sure.
Joel:
It's not an either/or [but] both.
Victoria:
Always. I see.
Shae:
Totally. You're right.
Joel:
And those things should come together.
Shae:
I like that you're using very everyday examples because I could imagine if I was just listening to this today, I would maybe think, Well, you guys all work in a ministry. Y'all are showing Jesus to the world every single day. But we, as we were preparing for this episode, we also talked about the difference between calling and vocation, which I don't know if either of y'all want to share, even if it's 30,000 foot view of that. But I really like that you're giving these every day examples of an opportunity where you have every right to be frustrated or every opportunity to stay to yourself but you chose to enter in and bring the presence of Jesus into those situations.
Victoria:
Yeah. Love that. I have a question for you, Joel. As you were talking, you mentioned the Lord's prayer, and you said, "on earth as it is in heaven," and we've had conversations about new heaven, new earth. For someone who maybe is newer to that concept, what is new earth? What exactly does that mean? Can you unpack that a little bit more?
Shae:
That's a great question.
Joel:
Yeah. Well, here's my first question. I'm going to do the good rabbi thing, right? Ask a question [to] respond to the question. So when you think of heaven, what do you think of? What's your mental picture? Not with many years of studying with us together, but you know what I mean? Growing up, you're a junior high, high school kid, the first time you hear about heaven, what would be that first picture?
Shae:
I mean, I think of all the paintings that are in old churches or even just storybooks that are very angelic and lots of light, lots of singing. It seems like a very happy party, honestly. And everyone kind of looks like angels.
Victoria:
Very ethereal, not physical, not tangible at all, which I feel like you're going to get to. It's an important point. But yeah, everything you said, totally. That's what pops into my head.
Joel:
OK, look at the bookend of the Bible. We start in a literal, physical garden. It's the place where God and humanity meet. And then in Revelation 21, 22, it's like, oh, the garden comes back and now it's no longer a garden. It's a city. And where is the city? The city seems to be in the new heavens and new earth. So the language of Scripture is new heavens and new earth. And there has been, I'm not quite sure when, I'm sure somebody has written some book or dissertation or something about when did we get to this ethereal, cloudy, we're all angels floating in wings? When did that happen? I'm not quite sure, but I'll just let y'all know it as kindly and compassionately as I can that it says, that ain't it, sis! That's not the picture.
The picture is, I think ... a closer picture is Eden in the thought that, and I call this an escapist theology. The thought that we escape out somewhere and leave this bad, horrible earth away is antithetical to Scripture. That's not the presentation of what Scripture has. In fact, I think we were talking about this earlier, Victoria.
I think that C.S. Lewis describes what the new heavens and new earth will look like the best, the very ending scene of the last battle, and it's this picture of all of these things that are fading away but also being transformed and becoming new with still the very presence of what they were. And the things that faded away were the things that were corrupted by sin, that were unredeemable. Those things are gone, but the things that were good, the things that are beautiful and yet still broken because of sin in this beautiful way in the new heavens, the new earth, these things are redeemed, and they're restored, and they're almost made like, they are made brand-new, but you don't forget the context of which you experienced that goodness originally.
And so this is what the new heavens and the new earth are. It's not a disembodied, angelic-like spiritualized deal. It is embodied ... like Jesus in the incarnation was embodied. He let you touch His hands. He let you touch the Son. He was eating on a beach. That is the picture of what the new heavens and the new earth are. And I think that's actually incredibly important for this conversation of exile because when we think about exile, it's like, do we just endure? Are we just here and we just got to survive until we get out of here? But if we think about the beauty and how that beauty is going to be redeemed and restored, it actually puts weight, value and worth to the things that we're doing right now. To be good stewards of God's creation here on earth right now, that thing is going to actually make an impact into eternity.
Shae:
I'm glad that you asked that question because I think if there are listeners, which I'm sure there are, on the other side of this conversation today, they're listening to this and they've never heard what you just talked about, I hope that that breaks a lot of fear that I think sometimes can be around the afterlife, and we don't have time to get into all that today, but I'm glad that you kind of dispelled where we've very much departed and gone from this.
So, Victoria, I know that you've done a lot of studying on this topic of exile and even just asking about the new heavens and the new earth. And so I want to give you the floor to share anything that you want to.
Victoria: Yeah, yeah. Thanks for diving into that, Joel. I feel like I definitely was in the angels floating around sort of camp of what I thought.
Shae:
That was the era we grew up in Sunday school for sure.
Victoria:
Truly, truly. Yeah. Whether that was the intention or not, that's what my takeaway was. But over the last five, 10 years, I really keep coming back to this, the new earth sort of concept. And OK, what does that mean for me today? Because I feel like things can feel ... We've talked about things here that's very 30,000 feet, and we're kind of in the 15,000 feet area right now, and we're going to get to the ground level —
Shae:
OK. Yeah, let's go.
Victoria:
— to make it a little bit more practical. So yeah, that concept of what we do here on earth in this life and how it really matters has become so important to me. And to your point, Shae, taking away fear that I have and also given me so much freedom because I think we as believers can make God so small and put Him in a box, but He is so limitlessly creative, and there's this vision of all the different ways that He's created our world and our earth that we just don't even think about.
And so for me, whenever I'm thinking about this concept and I am thinking about, OK, so what I do here on earth really matters. So what does that mean? Well, I think there's so many different ways that we can work, whether that's paid or unpaid here on this earth, that is an act of worship to the Lord. And so, that act of worship to the Lord, Joel, when you were talking about the things that will fade away or pass away, those things that are done on this earth that are an act of worship to the Lord will stay, and maybe they'll be transformed because there's still brokenness there, but they will remain and be an echo in eternity. So that could look like a beautiful piece of art that is created here. That is literally us, the Lord is a Creator, and that is us as humans, how we were wired, how the Lord created us to mirror His creation as our Creator.
So yeah, a beautiful piece of art. Maybe it's packing a healthy lunch for your kids to go to school so it fills up their bellies with good food and so their brains are ready to absorb the information that they need to get at school. Or maybe it's you faithfully doing your work in a cubicle in some sort of financial office where that industry would be really easy to fall prey to greed or climbing a social ladder or climbing the —
Shae:
Corporate ladder, yeah.
Victoria:
Corporate ladder, thank you, chasing prestige. There's so many different ways that we can do our work in a way that's worship to the Lord, and those are the things that will present on the new earth. And I think that's really cool. And actually, J.R. Tolkien wrote a short story that I think illustrates this in a really cool way. The main character of the short story is a painter, and he has this vision in his mind of this beautiful tree that he wants to paint ... all the colors and textures, and that is what he wants to do. He's an artist. He wants to paint this beautiful tree.
And every time he goes to paint, he's at his canvas, every time he goes to paint, something comes up. There's a neighbor who comes by, and he needs help. So the main character has to go and help him, or there's a storm coming, and he needs to repair his roof and board up the windows because the storm is coming, so he has to go spend time doing that. And he only has time to paint one leaf. On this big beautiful tree, this whole vision that he has, he only gets one leaf done before someone comes to him, and he has to go on the long trip, which AKA means he's dying. It's a metaphor.
But so he goes on this long trip; he's not able to finish his leaf or his tree. He just gets the leaf done. But what happens when he arrives in his destination after the long journey is he walks into this big beautiful field, and there's his tree physically there, the tree that he had always imagined in his mind is there, waiting for him in this scenario of eternity. And I just think that's such a beautiful reminder of how what we do here really and truly does matter. And I always try to think of that and remember that whenever I am just toiling on this earth and I'm like, does this have purpose? What is the purpose of folding this laundry or planting this garden in my backyard or whatever?
Shae:
Everything can be seen as an act of worship. I think about old people that I'll encounter and you'll say, "How are you?" They're like, "Oh, I'm just passing through." And it's like, while there's some truth to that, we're not here forever. We are not stuck here to just wait until it's our time to go to heaven. God has asked us and given us opportunities to bring His presence or to show His presence to the world through these different acts of worship that you're talking about.
Joel:
Yeah, I love that story because I think even the way that Tolkien works often is he's given us this story, these illustrations, and they're meant to almost be flexed a bit and to let our imagination run with it. And even as ... I've heard you share the story before, Victoria, but even just now as you're saying it, some new things came up where I was just thinking like, OK, there's a difference between vocation and calling.
There's this vocation which can shift and change over seasons and times, but then there's calling. And for me, I even separate calling between capital-C Calling and lower-C calling. Well, what do I mean by that? Well, I think the calling of every believer of Jesus is that 2 Corinthians 5, to make the presence of Jesus, to be ambassadors of Christ, that He's making His appeal in and through us.
And then the lower-C calling is just a bit more individualized to us. And I would connect the lower-C calling with the gifts of the Spirit. God gives us gifts, and these gifts are meant for the edification of God's people and the glorification of God Himself. And just as an exercise, if you're going out with your girlfriends and you're going to sit down and hang out and talk, one of the best things that you might do with them is go to Galatians 5 and look at the fruit of the Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit, the different passages, and maybe ask your friend and say, "Hey, what gifts do you see in me?" And allow them to speak into you. And then what you'll find is that this calling will often be able to be flexed out vocationally in what you're doing. And the vocation can change in various seasons.
Shae:
And it often does.
Joel:
And it often does, but what confidence and what comfort to know that even if your vocation is flexing and changing in places that you maybe didn't even want it to change in, the calling remains consistent. And with this story, I just think about drawing that leaf. I'm like, man, I wonder how this guy would feel? For me, it'd be writing a chapter of something and never can finish the entire book and what would happen?
And I'm like, well, and I think this is maybe what Tolkien is getting at is, every act, everything that he was, "distracted with," was actually a participation of the fulfillment of that tree. Even though he didn't get to physically draw it out, in a way he was living it out. And so when he gets to the new heavens and the new earth, he sees the tree. And then we get to, for us today, we get to see, oh, just because we have a view of how this can get done in the economy of God's Kingdom, and He's like, what you said, Victoria, endlessly creative. And so that very vision can actually happen through a variety of means. Obedience and faithfulness is the goal.
Victoria:
Yeah.
Shae:
I feel like it also shows how God plants those desires and dreams and visions for things, those longings for more in the human heart and then He fulfills them.
Victoria:
And how exciting to think about that? My brain kind of does flips on itself when I'm thinking about it, but I'm like, OK, I have these big dreams and these big visions and on this side of heaven, if they don't come to fruition, that's OK. Who knows what is going to come in this new heaven and new earth? It just makes me think we're playing checkers and God's playing chess.
Shae:
And it just ultimately, it's not for nothing. OK. So as we wrap up today, Victoria, help us land the plane in a practical way to kind of tie this together.
Victoria:
Yeah. OK, so we can get down to the ground level now.
Shae:
OK, we're here; we've arrived.
Victoria:
I love staying at the 30,000 foot, but then I think in me, I feel the angst of like, OK, but what do I do with all of this? So there's actually a really great book that I recommend. I'm going to hold it up for our friends online. Oh no, my notes. It's called Exiles on Mission by Paul S. Williams, and I feel like this ... if you want to learn more about this topic, I feel like this is a great resource. But he has a really great quote in here that I feel like will kind of tee us up for the art end of our conversation. And about, it's after the exile of Babylon, the story with Daniel and all that, if you're familiar.
And so I'm just going to read this quote quickly. "When the Jewish exiles finally returned from Babylon to Jerusalem, they found the city in ruins. Under the leadership of Nehemiah they began the task of rebuilding walls, gates, and, later, houses of the city." This is the key part. "Each family and occupational group had a specific part of the city wall to rebuild," and that's in Nehemiah 3 and 4. "Western society is in a state of spiritual disrepair. Its walls are broken down. God's heart is to see it reconciled to him in Christ." So here's the question. "Which part of the wall is God sending you to rebuild?" Cultivate, grow, start something new? How does that question hit y'all?
Shae:
Yeah, I think for me, I think of where does God have us, me, whoever on assignment right now? Joel, do you want to go first?
Joel:
Yeah, I mean, I think of Acts 17:26-29, and it's like ... it's not random or by chance that you live in the geographical areas that you live in or the times that you exist. And so for me, just on a practical level, I'll circle back to, OK, tomorrow I'm going to be in a minivan with my kids. And it's like, how can I, when I am annoyed and when I do want to lose it, how can I be constrained and held accountable by the Holy Spirit so that it hopefully is going to create an echo in their hearts so that when they grow up to be husbands, fathers, a wife, MJ, a mom, that is an echo in their hearts for when they're going to have that same moment with their kids and they're like, "Oh yeah, I remember when Dad ... I did the same stuff, and this is how Dad responded." And so for me, it's just very practical. And I think again, I think momentarily, immediately, and I think what often God's trying to do to us is help us to see eternally or even generationally. And so that from a practical level has helped me just tomorrow when I'm going to prep to go on vacation or a trip. My kids go on vacation.
Victoria:
Yeah.
Shae:
There you go. That's great. I think that's really good. As I'm thinking about, I think my brain can get lost at a 30,000 foot, even part of this question of just making this, it's a really big question to think about, but I think right now I think where God has me on assignment is ... I'm going to just answer outside of my job, kind of like you did, Joel. But I have a lot of friends that are in a season of either having their ... most of them are having their first child. And so I think God has placed me in a unique position to have the white space to be able to come alongside them and support them in a way that if I had children of my own right now, I wouldn't be able to do that. Thinking about, I have friends that are due in July and August and September and even my own sister this fall.
And so really just leaning into the white space that God's given me to be a support role for them in that, whether that's getting their grocery order when I'm going to the grocery store, or just kind of checking in those first couple of months when it's a lot, and not just checking in on the baby but also checking in on the mom. And so that was just one thing that came to mind for me of where I feel like God's asking me to step into that space.
Victoria:
Yeah, I love both of those because they're so specific and practical to where both of y'all are life-stage wise, your roles and your families and your communities. And yeah, as I think about this question, I kind of feel like I'm at a life stage where I'm sort of on the precipice of ... I don't quite know. I feel like I have been on assignment, and I have been cultivating, growing, building in the areas that Lord has called me in. And that season is finished, and I'm kind of standing on the edge. I'm like, OK, Lord, what's next?
Shae:
What's next? Yeah.
Victoria:
Where are You wanting me to show up? And so I kind of feel like I'm talking to the Lord about those questions. I was just reading in Joshua this morning and a Bible that I'm reading, there's some devotional questions and it's just asking, Is the Lord the center of your life, and what does that look like? Because it's talking about dividing up the tribes of Israel and all of that geographically. And so I'm just kind of on the edge of like, OK, I don't really know what's next, but I'm talking to the Lord about that. So I feel like this was a very good, timely podcast for us to talk through, even for me.
Shae:
Yeah. That's great.
Victoria:
Yeah.
Shae:
Is there anything that we didn't say that you guys want to share before we wrap up on this conversation of exile, new heavens, new earth? We talked about Eden. I mean, I think we kind of covered the whole story, didn't we?
Joel:
The whole story of Scripture —
Shae:
Yeah, we did.
Joel:
— in one podcast episode. I would just ... even hearing you, Victoria, say that, I think patience is such a massive component in it. And I think we live in a society where either we have this urgency to get to the next thing and we almost become a bit careless and reckless because we just want to do the next thing. Or the pendulum swing is we are so stressed out about the potential and possibility that when we do know it's the time to make the move, we still wait because of a fear of what might happen.
And I think one of the things that is so helpful with the context of exile and all the things we've been talking about, the vocation and calling, is patience is only as powerful as what we are actually practicing while we're being patient. And I heard a couple of things that you said: You're waiting on the Lord; you're talking to Him. I know you, outside of the podcast episode and just as friends and co-workers, you've got a strong community, you're involved in your church, and all of those things are the things that you practice in the midst of that patience so that when God says, "All right, let's take the first step," you're like, "All right, I'm going to be obedient to take that step." And so the exile is meaningful; exile has purpose. God is actually cultivating and creating something of extreme importance and worth because that thing will actually transition and flow into eternity.
Shae:
That's so good. That was a great way I think to end ... that is just to talk about the patience that comes with enduring life on this side of eternity, and honestly, too, the excitement and the endurance as we look ahead to what's to come to the new heavens and the new earth.
So, Joel, Victoria, thank you so much for your time today.
Victoria:
Thank you.
Shae:
I know that we talked a lot about some things that we were going to put in the show notes, like some extra resources and things that we want to link to. And so make sure, if you're interested in that, that you visit all the links in the show notes. And thanks for tuning in to another episode on The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast. We hope it blessed you today.
Kaley:
All right, Shae, we're back.
Shae:
We are back.
Kaley:
That was an amazing conversation. I really loved getting to hear from you, Joel and Victoria, but I would love for you to share something from that conversation that felt really eye-opening for you.
Shae:
Yeah. I think for me, the quote Victoria shared at the very end — Which part of the wall is God sending me to rebuild? — has really stuck with me as I've talked to friends about this conversation and just kind of noodled on it myself. But it is true that God really has so uniquely gifted each and every one of us in such a way that only He can as such a creative God, but even where we are right now in this moment of history where He's placed us, where we live right now. And I just want to keep that more top of mind as I live my day-to-day life. What is the assignment God has given me to help rebuild something in my community or be a part of something He's doing globally in the world? And I love the examples that we gave ... from me, Victoria and Joel because it wasn't anything necessarily larger than life, but it really brings it down to the day to day, just keeping top of mind that God has placed us here on purpose for a purpose and I can live from that place today.
Kaley:
Yeah, I love that so much. I think a lot of times whenever we look at the Bible and especially read stories like that, we think, "Oh, I have to do something that big." But to them, it wasn't big.
Shae:
They were just being obedient, yeah.
Kaley:
It was where they were. And I think because it's so far away from us in distance — like the land and even time — it's very easy for us to think of it as larger than life. But in reality, God is very present with where we are now, and He wants to use us right where we are. But I'm going to be honest, Shae, the topic of exile has really always been daunting for me, like I said, because of how far away in time and in geography. That's the word I'm looking for. It is that I really didn't understand what God wanted to teach me through it whenever I would read chapters from the book about it. And so hearing you guys talk today reminded me that God is an intentional God. And even if actual exile isn't something that I've experienced or maybe our listeners have experienced, there's still wisdom to glean from it because there are lessons recorded in Scripture. And God says that His Word is all useful for teaching and training in righteousness. And so this is a topic our team is so passionate about, and we want you to study with us too. So, Shae, will you share the two ways that they can get connected?
Shae:
Yes, we mentioned these at the top of the show, but I'm going to remind you because if you're like me, you may have forgotten by now. So make sure that you download the free First 5 mobile app, and start studying with us on September 9 with the Where Do I Belong? study guide. And then also remember that you can get a free teaching video from Joel on that concept of “Mountaintops and Meetings With God,” and it's gleaned from that study of exile that we talked about. And you can simply access that by visiting the link in our show notes.
Kaley:
Amazing. And one last shoutout to our sponsor for today's episode, Chosen Care. Be sure to learn more about how to support this organization that equips foster and adoptive families to experience restoration and healing and be part of their movement to change 100,000 lives by visiting chosen.care/100K or clicking the link in our show notes. That's all for today, friends. At Proverbs 31 Ministries, we believe when you know the Truth and live the Truth, it changes everything.