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A show about Weird Stuff, hosted by AP Strange. AP interviews cool weirdos about their work, and invites friends on to discuss second sequels in franchises in a series called "Third Time's the Charm". Other fun surprises await...
Pardon me while I have a strange interlude. But there is nothing else. Life is an obscure oboe bumming a ride on the omnibus of art. Among the misty corridors of pine, and in those corridors I see figures, strange figures.
AP Strange:Welcome back my friends to the AP Strange Show. I am your host, AP Strange. This is my show and today's show is brought to you by five tons of flax. Why settle for a little bit of flax or even one ton of flax when you could have five tons of flax? So, go get yourself five tons of flax today.
AP Strange:And returning to the show today, I'm really happy to have him back, is Bob Campbell. He is a comic book creator, a writer, a teacher and a wonderful guy who has been working for the last little while on Tales of Illuminatus comic books. We had him on back when he I think the second issue was yet to come out and now the third is on its way as well as a collected edition this summer if you can support on Kickstarter and we had a great conversation last time so I'm excited to get back into it again. Welcome to the show Bob.
Bobby Campbell:Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate you having me. I every time I see a new episode pop up, it's always something delightful. So I I I know that it's a good company to be in.
AP Strange:Yeah. Yeah. And, well, you know, there are there are those guests that you know like yourself where if you reach out and having you back on the show is always great to touch back back with you because we had a great conversation last time. So I feel like to the outside observer, we probably sounded like old friends in that other conversation. Like, we had never talked before, so that was kinda cool.
Bobby Campbell:There are certain topic topics that, like, instantly bond you with someone and, like, creates, like, a shorthand of, like, experience, and I think that Discordianism and Robert Anton Wilson really, really kind of putt to the chase very quickly.
AP Strange:Well, yeah, they do because I mean, I know I have some listeners that will hear the whole five tons of flax thing and know exactly what that is.
Bobby Campbell:Right. Yeah.
AP Strange:Some of them are gonna be like, what? But, yeah, discordianism is great like that and, you know, the Robert Anton Wilsonisms. Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. For sure. I'm I'm surprised that how far reaching it is all turned out to be. I really thought it was much more niche when I was younger. Right.
Bobby Campbell:But I've I've never done a show or, you know, any sort of art appearance where you I haven't found those people. They they seem to be distributed all over and and and judging from you know where we're selling books, it's pretty equally distributed from The United States over into The UK and the European Union. It's kind of it's pretty well distributed.
AP Strange:Yeah. I would say so. And I mean, in The UK, it's huge. Think we talked
Bobby Campbell:about Teams to be. Yeah.
AP Strange:Yeah. One of one of my best friends is over in Coventry and we we, you know, we kinda bonded over Discordianism early on.
Bobby Campbell:Right. Yeah.
AP Strange:So, yeah, I think the first message I ever got was just, hail Arris. And I was like, oh, alright. We're pals now.
Bobby Campbell:Exactly. There is a little bit of trust that that happens with that because you kinda know that they're gonna be at least, like, a flexible enough person that it's not gonna be confrontational in any weird ways. I that does seem to be a commonality there that they're gonna be pretty playful and flexible, and it's it's not gonna it's not yeah. Like I said, it's not gonna be confrontational. It's not gonna be a bummer in most cases.
AP Strange:Right. Yeah. And I feel like when I first started getting online to talk about and write about the subjects that I love, which is, know, it could can be loosely described as paranormal or weird or UFOs and stuff like that. I kind of expected that the people into that, those subjects probably would be more like that, but it's only like a very small portion. Yeah.
AP Strange:And usually there are people that will reference Robert Anton Wilson or Discordianism. But I I think it's I think it's gotten bigger now. I think it's these days, it might be a bigger following than ever. I don't know.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. No. For sure. I yeah, and it makes sense because, like, it's kind of eaten regular culture. Like, I would like, it has really become the standard to kind of view things through, if if not a skeptical, even a surreal lens because Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:You know, you can't really trust the first order of information that you see presented to you in any reliable way. You'll you'll always have to kind of interpret and kind of be try to despin whatever you're getting. But it's all that's also a fool's game because once you start playing that, you're you're basically writing fan fiction. And so it makes sense to kind of latch on to, like, a genre that can deal with that kind of reality, something that is kaleidoscopic and doesn't necessarily always cohere. And I think that's we've been there for a while now.
Bobby Campbell:And I think, you know, as people find their sea legs in Yeah. This level of uncertainty, I I I think I would say discordianism and maybe logic kind of appear as pretty buoyant floats that can be of some use in this situation.
AP Strange:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's what I've thought for a long time and I'm I'm heartened to see more people kind of grab onto it, but these are very uncertain times. I mean, one the one that I've struggled with the most I think is AI these days and that it's it's rampant proliferation because I had a moment of like sitting on the couch and an ad came on for Copilot and it was created with AI and I was like looking at this guy and I'm like that's not a real person. It just like triggered this weird like paranoiac response in the back of my mind where I was
Bobby Campbell:like. Yeah. Yeah.
AP Strange:So it's just destabilizing and it's it's weird because I think I'm, like, prepared for it. But AI is just one of those tipping points for me where I'm like, I'm becoming on board now. I can't trust
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. No. Absolutely. And and to a certain degree, like, when, you know, when Discordia Discordia is the norm kinda wanted this situation. They they wanted this, like, kind of complete saturation of uncertainty.
Bobby Campbell:I don't think that that situation gave rise to the breakthroughs that were assumed to happen, but it's but it's kinda funny, like, the degree to which, like, they had no idea what was on the horizon on terms of, like, boundary dissolving, like, the world turning itself upside down in terms of what you can and can't believe. I mean, like, at best, like, they were dealing with, like, the onion level of
AP Strange:Right.
Bobby Campbell:Like, pranks and stuff like that. But yeah. So it it they built these tools that turned out to be very useful. But like I said, I don't think they really grasped how useful and how necessary they would be. Or maybe they did.
Bobby Campbell:Maybe there would there was like a sense that this was always coming, but I I I we're definitely in a more advanced version of that media landscape than that it ever existed in the sixties, obviously.
AP Strange:Right. Yeah, it's really strange and I had another moment of a weird thought with very recently they're signing into law making it easier to test and use psychedelics for medicinal use, right?
Bobby Campbell:Yeah, yeah yeah.
AP Strange:Just watching the orange guy sign that thing and then be impressed by his own signature. I'm like, man, imagine if somebody just dosed that guy. I wonder what would happen.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. Well, I one thing that is kind of interesting about the loosening of restrictions on psychedelic drugs, I think we've learned for sure that they're value neutral tools, that they don't kind of come with any inbuilt therapeutic value. You you have to create the set in the setting that, like, makes that possible. Because, like, you know, there's these tech entrepreneurs that go and take Ayahuasca, and the insight they get is, you know, how to create a monopoly and leverage workers to exploit maximum efficiency. Like, it's it's not necessarily the the same Kumbaya message that a lot of us received.
Bobby Campbell:So it it's clearly yeah. Like like I said, there I don't think the message is inherent within those molecules. Think there needs to be a context within which those experiences happen that reinforce those kinds of breakthroughs. And I think I mean that was I mean Leary knew that.
AP Strange:Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:I think pretty clearly I think the set and setting I think I hope becomes the standard operating procedure as these things kind of become more widely used and available. And I I assume it will and so long as so long as the intentions here are helpful, that that'll that'll be the standards. Because I because the idea that you could, like, dose the water supply and get good results, I I I think has been mostly disproven because yeah. Alright. I I mean, at least that's my guess.
Bobby Campbell:I I there is the idea that each different type of psychedelic kinda have its psychedelic has its own personality and its own kind of inherent ride. Yeah, but I'm just not sure that it's inherently beneficial without putting in work beforehand.
AP Strange:Oh, yeah. I totally agree. I just think, know, probably a lot of people are very happy to see that it's there's steps in in the direction of moving towards medicinal use for a lot of it.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah, for sure. No. I I that was, I mean, that's what Raw was working for, working towards for a good portion of his life was just the the not even that there should be any particular outcome, but just that research should continue. And obviously it should. I mean, Leary's prison experiment alone points towards a monumental capacity for rehabilitation.
AP Strange:Yeah, yeah, for sure. What's your take on microdosing? I think I found this really interesting because it never would have occurred to me because usually if you take like mushrooms, you just wanna blow your head wide open.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah, so I think that the point of psilocybin is to get the blower the doors blown off. I I I wonder. I though I I've never tried it. I've never tried microdosing, so maybe people are getting something out of it. But I think that that more suggests that the experience is has something more to do than creating imprint vulnerability.
Bobby Campbell:And for me, think the psychedelic experience is about creating imprint vulnerability and then intentionally re imprinting in some specific direction or at least creating imprint vulnerability and letting the situation kind of wash over you and taking some sort of lesson from it. But I I I suppose there could be some sort of advantage to just being halfway in there, but I I think all my, like, best psychedelic experiences were always kind of, like, the big show was the point.
AP Strange:Right. Yeah. You kind of have those breakthrough moments. Have you have you ever had have you ever had the experience where it seemed like a shared mind or telepathy? Well
Bobby Campbell:Yeah.
AP Strange:Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. For sure. I we I always downplay it. Like, I always
AP Strange:I think everybody does. Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. I I I observed that it exists and it it, you know, it presents as mystery. But I always find that it almost is intentionally evasive. It it's it's never reliable. You know what I mean?
Bobby Campbell:Like Right. It it it only it pops up so intermittently that it's just a quick wink to be, you know, to kind of remind you that everything is interconnected, but it's not interconnected in any way that is exploitable in my experience.
AP Strange:Yeah. Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:Because it's
AP Strange:not meant to be exploited. I
Bobby Campbell:don't Right. Exactly. So it it it just it it it just peaks up, reminds you that there there's this interconnection, but it has to stay as a maybe, I think. I I I think if you if you lean too hard on it, it will let you down and leave you excessively vulnerable. I did I think that but the entire thing with spirituality is I think it has to not be relied upon.
Bobby Campbell:I I I think it has to just be a grace that pops up when whenever it happens to want to. But if you if you try to build your castle there, it's gonna collapse. The the paradigm shift that I'm kind of, like, most interested in right now, and I think it kind of is, like, the the stone that hits the most amount of birds is the, like, realization of the holistic world view.
AP Strange:Mhmm.
Bobby Campbell:And I think that that's the one that gets through and kind of addresses the converging crises. Because I there's this thing there's this fantasy that you can kind of separate yourself from other people's problems.
AP Strange:Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:And I and I don't think that that's actually functionally possible because we're so interconnected and everything is reliant on everything else that you just can't let one part of the system be gangrenous while the other part is luxuriating. And I think that's kind of like the fantasy that drives a lot of the current power structures that if we could just amputate the gangrenous part, we would be fine, but I it's not possible. I I I think that if we start making decisions based on the health of the entire biosphere that will get better results, then how do we boost this part of what is essentially an entire holistic being?
AP Strange:Yeah. I I I think it's difficult, honestly, partly because of the language. Because when you say when you use a word like holistic, I think for a lot of people it conjures images of of like new age, like kinda hippy dippy stuff and like Sure.
Bobby Campbell:I'm gonna
AP Strange:say, it's a you know, it's all interconnected, know, like Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:Oh, no. Yeah. Yeah.
AP Strange:So people just kinda think you're a flick, there's a lot to that because it is. Like, I I mean, everything is reliant on everything else. It's a there's ripple effects for everything. Like, the Yeah. Nothing exists in vacuum, you know?
AP Strange:Yeah. Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. That's my favorite of the Sanskrit words, Pratichya Samutpada. It's the everything is being simultaneously created through its relationship with everything else. And it's just it's one of those things where you're correct. If you explain it in grandiose terms, it probably loses some of its impact, but it's also if you're trying to do big picture thinking is it's kind of a little bit necessary, but I think you would notice it on the micro Scott microcosmic scale as much as the macrocosmic that, like, if in your family someone's not doing well, then not doing well is going to affect everyone else and make everyone else also not do so well.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. You know what I mean? Then so if you're and then it doesn't even you're at your job or on your sports team on, you know, whatever kind of interconnections you have, You can't isolate. Dysfunction you you. I think you have to deal with it and try to support it as best you can.
Bobby Campbell:Otherwise the outcomes are just going to get worse and worse because it's masking the issue as opposed to dealing with it. And I think that's kind of as a society, what we've kind of gotten too good at is masking problems and instead of actually dealing with them. And and, you know, somewhat due to, you know, things like greed and selfishness. But I think more potently just because it's hard. It's difficult.
Bobby Campbell:It's it's not there's not necessarily easy answers to all of the questions that plague us. And I think working through that difficulty is kind of the the task at hand. And I've, you know, I think we make a lot of decent progress at least on the small scale. I think it's much tougher to make progress on the large scale. But I think on the small scale, there's miracles that happen every day.
Bobby Campbell:I I I see them. I am a part of them. And I think if we just keep doing them, I think things will, if not get better at least continue to be a mixed bag which isn't a half bad deal.
AP Strange:Right. No. I agree with that. But, you know, as you say, you can't just isolate little things here and there and and try to try to coordinate it off and act like like like, we'll we'll just not worry about that part or mask over it because, it will come home to roost eventually and
Bobby Campbell:No. For sure.
AP Strange:Doing what you say allows us to really confront some of this systemic issues because sometimes you know these things are not so much a bug but more of a feature. Yeah. Know for systems. You know?
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. Yeah. No. Absolutely. Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:I've been thinking a lot about the impulse towards, like, individual success
AP Strange:Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:And how that kind of stunts the potency of collective action. Mhmm. And that, you know, if we could just decide on one specific thing that we wanted, we could probably get it. You know? Right.
Bobby Campbell:Like, and I'll give you an example.
AP Strange:So
Bobby Campbell:I my my younger son is taking AP US US history. So I've been, like, going through the US history textbook and all the stuff with them. And, like, you know, the the march on Washington where Martin Luther King Junior gave the I have a dream speech, they showed up with specific demands.
AP Strange:Right.
Bobby Campbell:Like, the they wanted an end to Jim Crow laws and they wanted a jobs program and they got it.
AP Strange:Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:You know what I mean? They showed up when they said we want this and we want this. And because they were able to do that, they got it. And I think sometimes with I no. I I don't fault our current, like, protest situation because everything is such a fucking mess.
Bobby Campbell:How do you boil it down to just two things that everyone can agree on? Because everyone kinda has their own pressing issue that is the most important at the exclusion of all others. But God forbid, if we could show up somewhere in force with one or two specific things, it would happen.
AP Strange:Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:So I
AP Strange:Yeah. With the caveat that this is
Bobby Campbell:the dumbest timeline.
AP Strange:But yeah.
Bobby Campbell:Right. Yeah. Yeah. But I I I think at a certain point, history tells us that, you know, imagination followed by organization produces results. And I think to a certain degree, and I'm repeating myself, the time for, like, deconstruction is kind of over.
AP Strange:Right.
Bobby Campbell:The the the edifice has been dismantled. It's gone. And it's kind of now time for construction to build something in its place. And part of why things are so weird right now is because there is nothing. You know what I mean?
AP Strange:There's Right.
Bobby Campbell:And I I think it's time to try to come to some sort of consensus on what we want the new thing to be because the old thing is gone. It is very thoroughly gone. And I think to a certain degree, the impulse is still there to rip it down, and it seems like there's something there. There's something pretending to be there, but it's not really there. It's that that's a con game.
Bobby Campbell:That's a shell game. That's just, you know, someone's if someone's looting the the, like, remains of what was once there. That's not a thing that's newly erected, at least in my opinion. So I just just to throw an idea out there that it it's I think we've got to to build something new and that the ground is already ready for something new.
AP Strange:Well, yeah. I mean, there I think we had talked about this before, but you know the status quo is no longer an option. Know, we tried I feel like we tried going back to status quo for four years.
Bobby Campbell:Right. Right. Yeah. And
AP Strange:Nobody found that very satisfactory either because still nothing was getting done. Right? So
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I I it's just the first steps are are tough because, you know, everything is so shaky and everyone is kind of polarized in various ways. And so consensus building is especially difficult under these circumstances.
Bobby Campbell:And so I I you know, like I said, that's why I don't fault the current efforts for being sloppy. I think that's a necessary first step. I think it makes sense that it has to be sloppy at first, but but I do think that some decisiveness should emerge, which is a little bit tricky, you know, because I'm coming from the maybe logic perspective where, you know, you're you're you kind of want to you have to recognize the scalability of your individual point of view. So so if anyone's like, no, that's completely wrong. I'm like, alright.
Bobby Campbell:Wait. Let me think of it. Let me let me see where where you're coming from. And and it's hard to build certainty or at least decisiveness while also allowing for valid differences of opinion. But the the thing also with maybe logic is it's not supposed to be a complete clusterfuck unknown.
Bobby Campbell:There's degrees of probabilities, and I think we can start to lead into probablies somewhat. I think it's okay to decide on some probablies and see how far we can get with that. And and I think, think healthcare is one of those things that a lot of people could agree on, that I think some form of universal healthcare might not be a bad first step. I know it wouldn't be everyone's first choice, but it might be top five for most people.
AP Strange:Oh, it's Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:Right? You know what I mean? Like, it's there are like, if someone said, well, no. There's actually this is more important than that. I I I'm sure there's cases to be made and and maybe it's not even that one.
Bobby Campbell:Maybe there's another one but but I do think if we could all get a little bit more specific and flexible that you might see at least a little bit of progress at least in in my brainstorm fantasy.
AP Strange:Well, right. I mean, I I think to get even more fundamental than that, I I feel like even as divided as people seem to be that there's basic principles that we could all agree on. There must be, right? Yeah, Like they're foundational principles for of humanity. Yeah.
AP Strange:We should go back to and revisit work from there, you know? Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:And I I will say, like, to be honest, like, for the most part these days, like, the people I encounter are lovely and, like, seem to be pretty principled and pretty with it. This fantasy that everyone's, like, a bunch of, like, crazy brutes. I I I don't experience that. I I don't run into those people. I think I think I experience a very astute and kind of agreeable populace out there.
Bobby Campbell:And I think that it's kind of very likely that we could, in fact, as people have done for thousands and thousands of years, know, come to a new arrangement of society and one that hopefully benefits more people than the last one.
AP Strange:Yeah, I mean I would hope so anyway.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah, yeah.
AP Strange:Well because you know so a lot of these divisions are really pretty illusory and as you said like a lot of people are just fine people you know and at their core they are.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah.
AP Strange:But but they're easily swayed too like I feel like.
Bobby Campbell:Yes. Yeah that is also true. That is also true.
AP Strange:And I'm not trying to say I'm better. I mean, I definitely am.
Bobby Campbell:Oh no. Yeah. Believe me.
AP Strange:But people are very susceptible to talking points and propaganda and divisive rhetoric and I see it out in the world where everybody wears it on their sleeve now and then it makes people distrustful of one another like they don't even Yeah. Want to engage you like I'm absolutely prey to that. Like, I went to the mall recently and the car in front of me at the, in the parking spot next to me when I parked was just, like, all Trump bumper stickers and, like, the bullet like, the back the blue Punisher sticker and stuff and I'm just like oh my god so if I ran and saw that person and bumped into him it's like I would not talk to him.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah no for sure.
AP Strange:Might have words for them but like and and I'm like yeah but I'm susceptible to that too because if I bumped into that person inside the mall apart from their car like we could have a very nice exchange who knows you know.
Bobby Campbell:I do think there is a there is an advantage with the way the current regime has positioned itself. It creates the opportunity to oppose them very very easily without even naming yourself as opposition.
AP Strange:Right.
Bobby Campbell:Because anything you do that includes kindness, compassion and joy is automatically in opposition to their enforced worldview. You know what I mean? Like, you don't have you you don't have to call your party the fuck Trump party for it to for that message to get across. It just has to embody those values which are in opposition to that enforced reality that it's it's communicated no matter what. And I think that that's a a pretty good advantage to have in that kind of pushback that you don't even have to you you you don't have to come up with a logo.
Bobby Campbell:You don't have to come up with a clever name. You just have to be that way, and it is a form of resistance that can be contagious because it doesn't necessarily in invoke, like, oppositional forces because you're not even naming yourself as opposition. You know what I mean? Like, it's Right. It it you would and they've even kind of fallen into the idea of being anti joy and Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:Like, compassion. They're they literally are against compassion. They've said it. And you know what I mean? So, like, all you have to do is be compassionate, and you are opposing their reality.
Bobby Campbell:And their reality is very weak and very vulnerable to attack and must be maintained constantly. You know? Entropy requires no maintenance. And, you know, just crumbling as we speak, and, you know, they're frantically trying to shore it up, but it can't be done. That that's the problem with fascism doesn't not work because it's mean.
Bobby Campbell:It doesn't work because it doesn't work. It it fails at every time.
AP Strange:Yeah. People don't like it very much. Yeah. Exactly. Term.
AP Strange:And
Bobby Campbell:yeah. And because I I was reading the the Wilhelm Reich math psychology of fascism book, and it points out that fascism can never do anything for you. It can only punish your enemies. It can only wreck havoc on the people you hate, but eventually it runs out of those people and the circle narrows and all of a sudden you're in the crosshairs. Inevitably happens.
Bobby Campbell:In some sense, we've managed to weather a decent portion of the storm, and I think that we'll manage the rest. And hopefully, it'll be sooner than later that we do get to start building something new, and we do start to get to come to a new consensus on how we wanna live because I don't think it's this way. I don't you know what I mean? I don't think
AP Strange:it's Oh, yeah.
Bobby Campbell:I don't think there's that many people that are happy with the way things are going.
AP Strange:No. And and well, I think people are tired too. And I I think everybody's tired. Everybody on all sides is tired at this point.
Bobby Campbell:Right. Yeah.
AP Strange:We're all just kind of, you know, scroll doom scrolling or watching the news and saying, what is any of this? You know, like
Bobby Campbell:Right.
AP Strange:Right. So I I think people are eventually there's gonna be, like, a point where everybody gets fed up on all sides, and they're like, you know what?
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. I think so.
AP Strange:Let's just do something
Bobby Campbell:different this point. Exactly. Exactly. I I yeah. I I think that is that feels inevitable.
Bobby Campbell:That there are there are I I sometimes get pushed back when I see certain, like, you know, new tragedies come across. But right by and large, I agree. I think that's the way things are headed.
AP Strange:Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean, it can only get so dumb. There's gotta be a bottom. Great.
AP Strange:Keep thinking we've hit it, but then we just go further.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. No. It is impressive that we managed to reach certain levels of surreality. Yeah.
AP Strange:Not good, but
Bobby Campbell:No. Certainly not. But yeah. I mean, it's almost like a like a like a cancer treatment. It feels like a Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:You know, it it it's we're just being bombarded with this radioactive solution, and we just gotta survive it. And I think we will, and I think we have, and I think we always have. And the more we get enthused about what's coming next, I think the faster it comes. I think that's the thing that has been kind of beaten out of a lot of people is enthusiasm. I I think people have trouble picturing the next world in a way where it's one that they're excited to live in.
Bobby Campbell:And I think that's where the imagination part comes in, that we need a little help imagining a better tomorrow. And then we need the organization to actually start to bring it about. And I'll tell you what I've been doing. I've only done it a couple of times, but in person art events are a really, really good way to break through the noise. And we with Todd Purse, the other artist on Tales of Illuminatus, We've been doing these Comic Fest events in Wilmington, Delaware.
Bobby Campbell:We've got this beautiful venue, the the queen on Market Street in Wilmington, Delaware. What we did was we just we got a space. We offered free tables to local artists and just everybody came. They they put up their tables. They put on a show, and it's the most fun I've had in forever.
Bobby Campbell:And it's just this thing where you just create a space for people to gather and to share their work and they do, and it's really fun. And it kind of is like a throwback to the old bazaars and, you know, kind of
AP Strange:Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:The idea of let's put on a show. And so I think that that is actually a pretty decent model of how to start coming back together is to just put on some sort of gathering and Yeah. Let those connections start to grow again. Let those be like, I I think we maybe leaned a little too hard into cyberspace that it's no longer really the place where the playing field is leveled. Remember there was a time Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:Where that was
AP Strange:I
Bobby Campbell:do. Like, I I mean, like, when when I first, like, when I built my first website in the year 2000 and put my comics on there, It was a leveling of the playing field. It's very hard to get material out there especially if you ever published stuff back then the minimum print orders were oppressive. You couldn't make a zine or a comic and get less than a thousand of them. And if you're getting a thousand of them, it was very expensive.
Bobby Campbell:And so there was this thing where it was very hard to kind of compete in that space. But now it's kind of reversed and it's hard to break through online in kind of a similar way. The gatekeepers have reemerged as these walled garden algorithmically derived feeds and it's hard to break through. But in person, you're in person. It's right there.
Bobby Campbell:You know what I mean? Like, there's no necessary necessarily, like, impenetrable barrier to getting seen. And I think that the real world might be ready for a reinvasion from the creative types. Every not that I've everybody left it entirely, but I do think that maybe I know at least I probably relied too much on the virtual space that is no longer hospitable to those efforts.
AP Strange:Well because the virtual space has become increasingly artificial as far as I can see, even without the discussion of artificial intelligence just like, gamed out algorithms and, search engine optimization. Yeah. Pay to play way that social media developed because even something as simple as Facebook, I used to when I played in a band I could make a Facebook event, I could share it around on different pages locally and then people would see it online and nowadays it's like if you make events that just gets buried in notifications, nobody sees it.
Bobby Campbell:Right. Yeah. If you have
AP Strange:a page for your creative work, you have to pay for that shit to get it as a promoted ad that may not even go in front of eyeballs that are remotely related to it or it's
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
AP Strange:So as you're paying money for stuff and then meanwhile when you scroll, it's like you may or may not see things that you're even remotely interested in, you know, and it's all paid for, you know. People had to pay to get it there, so it's all promoted stuff all the time, you know.
Bobby Campbell:Right. Like Yeah. But like on a on Instagram, I I go on Instagram to see what like the the people back home are doing or what family in faraway places are up to, and I do not get that anymore. I get nothing but, like, these kind of, like, manufactured personalities
AP Strange:Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:Doing weird performances that I am not interested in whatsoever. And yeah. So I I I just think that there was this opportunity that has kind of passed in some ways or if it's not that the I mean, it's not like the Internet's completely useless. But I think a a more hybrid approach is probably appropriate at this point as opposed to all in on one place or another.
AP Strange:Right. Yeah and I'm heartened to see you know like and hear about events like the one you're discussing like comic book you know conventions on maker maker markets and things like that.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah.
AP Strange:I think there's a growing, hunger for third spaces where people can meet that people are coming up with creative new ideas for it which is great because you know just speaking for where I live as far as like nightlife goes it's like you got bars that's about it and that's sad because you really should have a third space that's like all you're labor not you know like sober and you're not necessarily like have to pay money for stuff like and some of that is coming back which is nice you know. Yeah. Happy to hear about it in other places.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. Was just talking talking with my kids about this because they're teenagers now and looking for stuff to do and it's terrible for kids these days third spaces. And yeah. So I was like yeah even when I was a kid it was like you can go bowling or you can go to the movies.
AP Strange:Right. And
Bobby Campbell:or you get so maybe someone has a basement that you can hang out at. But it's like, yeah, there there's just, like, not enough to do. But, like, you know, we can definitely come up with things to do. So I I I think that's a a a good growth area is to, you know, start experimenting more in real life and bringing some of that creative energy offline and into the real world.
AP Strange:Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's become kind of like trendy to be cynical and misanthropic to a certain point where like you see a lot of online memes that are just like, oh, I have to deal with people today or, like,
Bobby Campbell:you know, I'll be Yeah. Yeah.
AP Strange:I'll be hiding under my under my blanket over here. You know?
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. Yeah. But I I you know what, though? I I feel like that cynicism is, like, it's more of a question than a statement. Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:You know what I mean? Like, I I think, like, there is that feeling, but I think there's like a question behind, like, should I be feeling this way? You know what I mean? Like, I I'm I what they're really expressing is I have anxiety. That that that's what
AP Strange:they're Right.
Bobby Campbell:Statements mean. They mean I have anxiety, And it's okay to have anxiety, and it's okay to, like, not wanna go out. But I think probably most of those people would enjoy if they found the correct situation. And I think it's just about developing the correct situations. And I mean, like, little bit, like like, everyone kind of has these, like, ideas for businesses they wanna create or, like, entrepreneurial pursuits they wanna do.
Bobby Campbell:Like, there's there's all this pent up creative energy, and I think we need it. I think we need people to actually start chasing those whimsies and not in a a destructive way where they upend their lives, but I don't know. I think I think if there was an arcade in town, I think people would go to it. If there was
AP Strange:Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:More shows in town, I think people would go. I think yeah. I don't know. I think I think the the the world that we want is fully within reach. It's just we just actually have to do it.
Bobby Campbell:I think that's the idea. I think I think we just actually have to take the risk and and do it. And I I you know, not that people aren't. If anything, I'm I'm talking to myself and encouraging myself to pursue those things even more.
AP Strange:I do a lot of that. Yeah. Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. Yeah. As a quick as a Rosetta stone for when I'm talking, whenever I say people should do something, I mean me.
AP Strange:Right.
Bobby Campbell:That's what I mean. I mean, So I'm not criticizing you or anyone within earshot. It's it's all directed right back at me.
AP Strange:Yeah. And I think a lot of people are kinda ready for that step, you know. I I know for me personally, I would love to open like a mystery shack, you know, just like a weird Amazing. Or something. That would be
Bobby Campbell:Absolutely. It would be amazing. Yeah. Yeah. No.
Bobby Campbell:You couldn't beat it. Yeah. And there's such a lack like, what I would give for there to be a freaking used bookstore in town. Yeah. Do you know how much I would love to go to a used bookstore?
Bobby Campbell:There's there's just not around. And do you know how many people would love to open a used bookstore? Like
AP Strange:Right.
Bobby Campbell:You know, that's that's a passion project beyond belief. Yeah. I think I think that's a a thing that was kind of taken from us in the name of convenience in a way. I think that's and and it's also it's like one of those things where it's like in bulk, a Walmart gives you in theory cheaper products, but it extracts so much wealth from your town that the trade off isn't worth it. On the surface, it looks like you're paying less for laundry detergent, but you're paying more in like the loss of like genuine local culture.
AP Strange:Yeah, yeah and the soul crushing march with the shopping cart through a gigantic box store with other people who are miserable. Absolutely. Because it was kind of nice to have these things, separated out and I think that's I think that's coming back in some places. You kind of get like boutique stores and and very specific niche things. Yeah.
AP Strange:Yeah. I'm reminded at the moment of an old quote from Kurt Vonnegut about going out to to buy an envelope and his wife asking like, why don't you just send for some, like get a whole box of them and it's like it is like, because I'll get to meet, like, amazing looking babies and see somebody's dog and, like, give the fireman a thumbs up when he drives by, like
Bobby Campbell:Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
AP Strange:And he said, you know, we're we were put on this earth to just fart around, and I'm like, yep. That's pretty much what it is.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. One of my favorite things I I sell a bunch of stuff on Etsy, and my my trip to the post office every day is, like, the highlight of my day. Like, I I love the process of packing things up and going seeing the people in there, and there's always some sort of drama going on.
Bobby Campbell:And, you know, one day I go in and some guy's having trouble with the money order. And then the next day I go in and he's still having trouble and I'm like, hey, how's it with the money order? And he's like, oh, you know them and it's it's I don't know. It's just like a a a enjoyable slice of life that I think I could do to have more of.
AP Strange:Yeah. Because otherwise, you're just like, you know, in a cave on your computer. Yeah. You know?
Bobby Campbell:Right. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And and to be honest, being at work doesn't feel like being in reality.
Bobby Campbell:It's it's different. You know what I mean? Like, you can be in public at work, but you're playing this character and it's like, it it feels insincere in a way that doesn't scratch the itch that I'm talking about. You know what I mean?
AP Strange:Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have I have surprised moments in my work day where I feel like every once in a while I feel a connection with somebody and I'm like, that's Oh yeah, that's not impossible.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah, that's for sure.
AP Strange:But a lot of the time and I mean increasingly these days I feel just kind of anxious and like eager to get the day over with like get out of here, just need to get back home, but then it's like all right well now I'm just sitting at home. Yeah yeah. But yeah I mean connections with people, it's it's this is where we're at these days where you say some stuff that's just very simple, and it sounds profound, but it's like Right. Connect with people because it's Like, go talk to somebody face to face. Look them in the eye.
AP Strange:Absolutely. Put your phone in your pocket.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
AP Strange:Yeah. And so much just seems insincere these days. Like I said, with the artifice of being online, like I I feel foolish like taking a selfie these days or, like
Bobby Campbell:Sure.
AP Strange:Yeah. Taking photos when I'm at a place. Like, I was at a concert recently and everything looked really cool, but and normally, I would take a picture of the band or something. I'm like, I don't want to. I want this to be like it used to be.
AP Strange:You're not a concert. You're just
Bobby Campbell:in the moment.
AP Strange:It looks cool, it sounds cool, and I'm having fun and then I'll have that memory. Know, I don't need the picture on my phone that I'm not gonna look at again. Right, right. Yeah, it's not even a physical picture. It's just a digital file on my phone.
AP Strange:Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. I I've kind of been I'm fascinated with kind of antiquated technology and just in terms of, like, keeping tools available at hand? Because I feel like we might have discarded some more advanced technology in favor. You know what I mean? Yeah.
AP Strange:I do.
Bobby Campbell:I'm sorry, go ahead.
AP Strange:Well, have a great example of that actually because I always, know, Facebook and Instagram both have little carousels of reels of stuff that you may or may not be interested in. And, you know, one of them suckered me in where it was like this mind blowing photograph, and they're showing a photograph from like the nineteen twenties or something. And, they're like, look at the astounding detail, and they just keep blowing up the picture and blowing it up and you can, you'd like you have that really high, I don't know if fidelity is the right word for it, but the picture is perfect no matter how much you blow it up.
Bobby Campbell:Right, this is film and yeah, yeah.
AP Strange:I know, I'm like wow, this person is just unfamiliar with the concept of film. Like film was actually really good. It's like Yep. Was
Bobby Campbell:a really
AP Strange:like digital doesn't do that. It just approximates Right? Like Yeah. Yeah. That's a great example right there.
AP Strange:But this this guy's mind was blown because he had never really considered photography.
Bobby Campbell:Right. I remember watching years ago watching, like, high def versions of the Twilight Zone. And it was like the old TV show and it was just crystal clear way beyond anything of the day because everything around that time, everything was filmed on video and video doesn't scale up very well. And it was just fascinating that in the in the 60s they had better clarity than we do currently right now.
AP Strange:For the early zone they used film I think like they actually
Bobby Campbell:That's what I mean. Yeah.
AP Strange:Right. Yeah. Because they
Bobby Campbell:I meant yeah.
AP Strange:Because they switched to videotape for one season, and and it's it's a huge nosedive in quality. Like, there's a few episodes where it just feels like normal TV, but the other ones are, like, cinematic. You know? They're they're yeah. Yeah.
AP Strange:Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:So, like, in like, well, we have this thing in in the second issue of Tales of Luminatus where there's a cassette tape. So we're introducing the cassette as a medium in that world because it's around, like, 1976. And so my friend Dan recorded a album of, like, rock staples, and we put out a cassette tape of the music, and we've been selling the cassette tapes. And it's this idea that, like, we used to have this medium that you could manufacture on your own and distribute as object very easily. And that just doesn't exist anymore, and that might be a kind of thing that would be useful these days to have something that you could just manufacture in your house and have even, like, the old CDRs
AP Strange:Yep. Oh, yeah.
Bobby Campbell:Were a thing like that. And even I've been thinking that the the newspaper was kind of amazing.
AP Strange:Like, I mean,
Bobby Campbell:it was like you know what I mean? Like, we have the we have a a hyper local newspaper that prints once a week, and I just absolutely adore it. And the idea that, like, back in the day on Sunday, you could get a full page Little Nemo in Slumberland, Windsor McKay masterpiece along with a full page Crazy Cat by George Herman. And just, like, that's kind of, like, a thing that would be great now. And the technology still exists, but the interest doesn't.
Bobby Campbell:And I don't know. Just thinking that there might be some things worth reclaiming and some old ways that would serve us better, not not just out of nostalgia, but because it actually produces a better result. I'm not sure which ones there are, but I think I think I would love it if there was a good local radio station and that doesn't exist currently, but if it did I would listen to it.
AP Strange:Right. Well these things you know there's always a tendency towards, homogenization and and corporatization of of media. So I mean, at some point, you didn't have DJs picking music on the radio anymore. It got bought by some corporate enterprise and there was some board that decided what got on the air and what didn't and the playlist was already set and DJs just became personalities, but
Bobby Campbell:Right. Yeah.
AP Strange:You know, and then, and if that, you know, it depends on the station, but, and then like local newspapers are harder to find now. They're all getting bought up by the huge conglomerates and stuff and it doesn't have the local flavor as much as as it once did. I mean some places again are better than others probably with that. I'm fortunate to have some really good local journalists here that I very appreciative of, but yeah I mean I think you're absolutely right and I think part of that is the limitations right as an artist I'm sure you'd agree with this that sometimes being boxed in and having limitations, only so much page space that you could use. You have to get creative about how you use that.
AP Strange:There's an art to it.
Bobby Campbell:You actually get better results from limitation. And I think in some ways, it it's like there was this thing. There was this old Terence McKenna talk, and someone from the audience, and this was it was literally in 1999. And a guy in the audience is like, well, what do you think about the day when every single TV show is available on an index and you can just scroll through them and pick what you wanna watch? And and they anticipated the idea that you would just never arrive at anything, which is what happens.
Bobby Campbell:You know what I mean? Like, there is that thing where you just like, no. No. No. No.
Bobby Campbell:And, yeah, it's weird. There it there's this idea that, like, we've achieved this, like, total availability of information, and it's worse than no. It's I I I fully I recognize that it's very possible that that I I it's just nostalgia, that I'm just remembering how I experienced media as a younger person. But and that's why I think a hybrid solution is probably the way to do it. I think there would be nice it it would be nice if both could coexist and support each other.
Bobby Campbell:And I think that having local media is something that would be very, very valuable and that you would get very interesting results from the limitations like you were saying because
AP Strange:Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:You know, the the the broad spectrum, anything goes, everything available has diminishing returns, it seems.
AP Strange:Yeah. It does and I mean even getting back to the forms of media, it's funny because you had mentioned like cassette tapes and CDRs like I was talking to my son about this because you know this is like ancient history to him. Is like my dad talking about playing with a ham radio and but yeah I mean there was something wonderful about mix tapes and mix CDs either or because like you had a limited amount of room. Right? Right.
AP Strange:Artist and if you're making yeah. You you you were still making something for your friend or a girl you liked or something, you know?
Bobby Campbell:Absolutely. No. It was an art form.
AP Strange:Right. And it it you you always felt like a master if you could fill that tape up, like, right to the end
Bobby Campbell:and not
AP Strange:have the extra space at the end, Absolutely. Gonna do the math with all the track links to make sure that would work.
Bobby Campbell:There was something too because some songs need a few listens before they really crack through. Yeah. And so, like, when you would buy a record and, you just spent $10 on a record, you weren't gonna not listen to it a bunch of times. And then sometimes, you know, after that fifth, sixth, seventh listen through, you'd you'd access deeper cuts that I don't know that I would ever find these days because I'm not gonna listen to a song that I find boring. I'm gonna skip right by it.
Bobby Campbell:And you know what mean? Like, that's that thing where it's like having too much of a good thing kind of spoils your appetite. And you don't you don't get to unlock those deeper cuts that take a minute to saturate to hear what's going on within them. So I I yeah. I I I think somehow dialing back a little bit might produce better results on a lot of fronts.
AP Strange:Yeah. Yeah. I mean,
Bobby Campbell:I've seen You would achieve it, but
AP Strange:No. Me either. I think it would have to be a conscious effort to do
Bobby Campbell:it. Yeah.
AP Strange:You know, because it's still it is possible to do all these things we're talking about yourself.
Bobby Campbell:Of course.
AP Strange:Yeah. There's little ways you can, and I mean, the fact that there are a lot of record collectors out there still, you know, so if you're listening to a record, you're not gonna keep getting up and skipping a song. It's like really obnoxious too. You might as well listen
Bobby Campbell:to it all fall Yeah. The way
AP Strange:Yeah. But it is It's
Bobby Campbell:encouraging sign that that there's a market for records like that.
AP Strange:Yeah because like I said I mean I go to concerts people have have vinyl LPs just out at the merch table now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nobody's selling CDs anymore because people just don't really listen to those but yeah.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah, I saw an interesting or that saw I heard an interesting story on the radio about once a tool goes into production, it never leaves availability. You can still get buggy whips. You know what I mean? Like, they they still exist. And and that we're just, like, adding and adding and adding tools to our repertoire.
Bobby Campbell:And yeah. So it'll it'll be interesting to see which things we left behind that may turn out to be something that's useful. I mean, like, sort of like how the animated GIF outlasted Flash.
AP Strange:Right.
Bobby Campbell:Like like, Flash was supposed to be the next big thing that was gonna be how media was displayed digitally. But it came and went, and the animated GIF, the first one, is still going strong. So, you know, so there may be other gems in in the dust bins to be dusted off.
AP Strange:Yeah, for sure. I think a lot of our technology these days has become disposable in an accelerated way where I find it to be incredibly wasteful. It does worry.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah, for sure.
AP Strange:Yeah, yeah. Because back in the day, could build your own computer tower and people would change components and things like that and upgrade their computers and that these days, you can get to a certain point with a laptop and then it's time to get a
Bobby Campbell:new Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As my I built my kids computers for them and they are one of them is completely in a ship of thesis situation and the other one is getting close. But but that's, like, kind of the rare exception.
Bobby Campbell:If it and unless you have a PC tower, you know, you're throwing your phones away, you're throwing your tablets away, everything else is just kind of junk laptops. Laptops are probably the worst offender. Like that's it's kind of silly that they don't make them so that you can kind of go in and like swap parts easily.
AP Strange:Yeah. I do often wonder how much of that is like real innovations that are meaningful and how much of that is just like artificially, you know, like the artificial obsolescence kind of thing. You know?
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. I I I lean towards it being mostly that. It's it because it does seem like everyone has adopted that, like, in shitification business model of, like, giving less and charging more and seeing how far you can get before people complain too much.
AP Strange:Right. And I
Bobby Campbell:I and then going just a little bit further, it seems.
AP Strange:Yeah. How far can you go before people start throwing Molotov cocktails at your house?
Bobby Campbell:Right. Exactly. Exactly.
AP Strange:Then maybe go a little further. You know?
Bobby Campbell:So Exactly. Just a little bit. Just alright. Once you know where the line is, you just go a little bit further and then you'll be alright.
AP Strange:But, yeah, I mean, of of, you know, holistic approaches to things, I do and have been very worried for a long time about how excessively wasteful a lot of our tech is. Because somebody had made the argument to me at one point or I had heard the argument at least that like when people talk about data centers and AI, they're like, well, know, you waste a lot more data and energy scrolling through Netflix and all this other stuff.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. But that's the intuition as well. Yeah.
AP Strange:But but I'm like, I'm I'm not for that either though. Like, Exactly. I don't Exactly. Netflix to be automatically playing video for me everywhere. Why can't it just be like files on a screen that I can just still images even.
AP Strange:Like I could just Yeah. Because a lot of that is really advertisements having to force their way through. A lot of that a lot of that energy is spent just with like the stuff that's functionally supposed to give you a better user experience and also cram as many ads in as possible.
Bobby Campbell:Sure, yeah.
AP Strange:I'm like, yeah, you know, I'm really not happy about the environmental effects of a lot of our tech anyway, right? Right, right. These aren't mutually exclusive. Like, that's bad too. You're right.
AP Strange:That's bad.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That that is that is my intuition, though.
Bobby Campbell:A lot of times, like, yeah, a a lot of I'm sure social media consumes a similar amount of, like, energy and does a similar amount of environmental destruction. I I I think that it's all part of the same machine, and I think, you know, to a certain degree, yeah, we probably should start weaning ourselves off of it to a certain degree, at least in whatever ways are helpful and hopefully while maintaining the the benefits. Because I do think it's there there is something that I think has led to break throughs by having everyone in communication with one another. Even if it's created a lot of static and a lot of other collateral damage, I do think that there is a benefit for everyone to be in contact with each other in a literal fashion, but yeah but I think probably we shouldn't let it destroy the biosphere if we can at all help it.
AP Strange:Yeah. And I mean and then there's the physical cost of it too, where a lot of, you know, well, first of all, the mining of rare earth elements that it takes to create the stuff and then the disposal of it when it inevitably becomes obsolete.
Bobby Campbell:The word. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:That's what that's what my son was saying the other night was that basically, it you kind of can't switch everything over to solar because we don't have the rare earth materials to actually do it. It's kind of like a like a fantasy. Similar with the electric cars. Like, we just don't have the ability to replace the entire fleet. You would like, it's insane that we're not going towards electric public transportation.
Bobby Campbell:That would clearly be the, like, better outcome. It just can't be privatized in the same way so we don't get it, which is another thing that, like, I think a consensus could build that would be preferable would be mass public transportation. Yeah. Like the idea that we're like making zero progress on that is kind of tough to swallow.
AP Strange:Yeah. Yep. And I I I've always made the argument that kind of biodiesel is a better way to go than electric vehicles.
Bobby Campbell:Oh, interesting. I I think I've heard that before, but are the the emissions aren't bad?
AP Strange:The emissions don't don't hurt anything. It's just basically
Bobby Campbell:Okay. Like
AP Strange:you're burning up organic stuff. Yeah yeah Like oils and grease and things like that, you just need to be able to refine it.
Bobby Campbell:Oh right on, okay.
AP Strange:So I feel like before there really were electric cars, I mean I think there were hybrids and stuff like that you know, people were toying with it and I was always kind of hopeful that that would become more of a thing. But it's Yeah, not really a sustainable thing because you can't go fill up with biodiesel just anywhere, but for a short period of time were places you could, you know.
Bobby Campbell:Right. Right. No. That that's good to keep in mind as a as a possibility though. Like, you know, I I I think hybrid approaches across the board are probably what's going to happen anyway.
Bobby Campbell:I think any available thing that helps is worth considering.
AP Strange:Yeah, and then everywhere you drive your exhaust smells like french fries.
Bobby Campbell:An added benefit.
AP Strange:But I've always thought that'd be a better way to go because the electric vehicles, I mean, you're you're still drawing on the grid when you're charging the thing.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. Right. Very true. Right. I I it probably, like, at at some point, if we could, like, undo the way that we've structured this country to rely on, like, consistently traveling 50 miles every day, I think would probably help things pretty considerably.
Bobby Campbell:There.
AP Strange:Well, there's a lot of things we need to do over with, I think.
Bobby Campbell:I mean, I think probably what happens is things break and then you have to rebuild them within the scope of what you can actually do and then that's how changes like that become possible. Only once things kind of break down in their current form can you then replace them with something more sensible. Unfortunately, I think I think there does probably have to be various rock bottoms hit before more sensible solutions arise. Because otherwise, I mean, like, entrenched power is entrenched power, and it's it's there for a reason, and it has the resources to stay there. But once once they no longer work, then you can be like, oh, you know what?
Bobby Campbell:We we don't need everyone to be traveling this far every day. We can kind of, you know, localize a little bit better. And I think that's that's kind of like the another, like, silver bullet is is localizing things a little bit more and not necessarily having to, like, exist as such a sprawling community. I think we could probably tighten up a little bit and that might produce better outcomes as well.
AP Strange:Yeah yeah I tend to think so yeah but I mean I think things do kind of have to get dire before people are exploring new ideas even because yeah it's
Bobby Campbell:like yeah
AP Strange:if everything's fine and you just lock it in Yeah. The
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. The path of the path of least resistance wins every time, unfortunately, or fortunately in some cases.
AP Strange:Yeah. You don't wanna walk up to the powers that be, hey, how about some universal basic income?
Bobby Campbell:Right. Yeah. Yeah.
AP Strange:Oh, go fuck myself? Okay. I will. See, I think that would help a lot. That
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. No. I think I that's another one of those you could convince me that's the the thing that everyone should rally behind, and I I would agree with that as well. I think that would Health
AP Strange:health care at this point would pretty much be the same thing. Like
Bobby Campbell:I agree. Yeah. That's true. That's true. Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. Yeah. It it would produce very similar outcomes. It would, create a similar amount of, like, lateral movement socially to not have your health care tied to your job and to not have your health be in like an albatross around your neck. I think that would that would that would free a lot of people up to try some of the more creative, like, adaptations that that we've been talking about.
AP Strange:Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:That, you know, if you didn't have to worry about where your, like, medication was coming from, then you might feel a little bit more emboldened to open a a coffee shop or to, you know, something along those lines.
AP Strange:Yeah. No. Absolutely. Yeah. And having it tied to an employer is absolutely insane.
AP Strange:I think that's
Bobby Campbell:the worst. Yeah. That that's clearly a manipulation tactic meant to keep people, vulnerable to their employers. That's clearly a, a scam.
AP Strange:Right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm fortunate to be covered under my wife's policy and every time I work somewhere and didn't take their health insurance, they're like, what? What do you mean?
AP Strange:What do you mean you're They not gonna take really wanted to have me under their thumb with that one.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. No, absolutely.
AP Strange:It's a good leverage to have. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, I did wanna double back because we we we kinda moved right past something that I I was gonna ask you about because that's how conversations work, but Of course. Yeah.
AP Strange:Yeah. You were talking about the mass psychology of fascism by Reich, and that's one I I haven't read, but I I was wondering what your thoughts on Reich are more generally, like more broadly.
Bobby Campbell:So I think that the the insights of armoring seem pretty, like, spot on. That does seem to be a an issue with how people react to our hostile environments and how it creates, like, kind of a feedback loop that makes them feel worse and worse. And, like, kind of creates, like, a recursion where you're, like, you feel bad, and so you, like, tense up, and you shield yourself from the world, and then you feel worse. So you shield even more and you feel worse. And I I I think that and the ideas of the emotional plague, I think, also makes a lot of sense.
Bobby Campbell:This idea that you know, because the the mind and body seem to clearly be in, like, interact like, a the the somatic system seems to influence each other. It if you if you're in a poor mental state, it's gonna lead to a poor bodily state and vice versa. So they they are kind of feeding into each other. And I think there is an idea that there's kind of like a contagion that, like, if, you know, if everyone around you is in a shitty mood, it's gonna be tough for you to stay bright and bubbly because you're gonna be taking on all of that negative energy. And so the this idea that there's an emotional plague brought on by the harsh conditions of what is honestly a pretty primitive society that leads to the kinds of inner turmoil that a lot of people experience and that has been kind of generalized as the human condition.
Bobby Campbell:Think that all that stuff in his work makes a lot of sense to me. I don't know about the orgone stuff. I that's one of those things that's a little bit it's I like it as like a sci fi concept. I like it as a thing in a story or a thing that works as a metaphor. But the idea that it's like a measurable physical energy, I I think that's something that would well, then prove it.
Bobby Campbell:Then you know what I mean? Like, then Right. It it it I mean, if it can be measured, measure it. If it can be used to help people do it, then do it again. And then once it's confirmed, then I'm I'm all open for it.
Bobby Campbell:But it seems to be something that's more of a a phantom. And like we were talking about before, that that kind of spiritual energy that's never there when you call it,
AP Strange:but
Bobby Campbell:it does show up just enough that you can't discard it. You know what I mean? Like, it's Yeah. Maybe it's there, but, you know, it's not reliable enough that I'm going to base any sort of worldview on it because it's not consistent enough. And then I I I I do think that he went a little bit off the deep end at the end and that all the conspiracy stuff was him you know, because you don't come up with the idea of the emotional plague if you're not experiencing that yourself.
Bobby Campbell:Right? That that that's definitely a call is coming from inside the house. And so I think what happened at the end essentially is that he succumbed to his own armoring and emotional plague. And I he I mean, he was pretty well persecuted
AP Strange:Mhmm.
Bobby Campbell:By various groups, which then caused him to act in a way where people would push him away, which was probably hard for him to tell if it was further persecution or if he's the one that's being, like, kind of destructive. And I think that's kind of why he spiraled out at the end. I do think it's it's wild that they burned his books. I I Yeah. I guess That's
AP Strange:really strange.
Bobby Campbell:I I do find that very odd. I think because I think it was the time period. I think they were just so afraid of the populace getting out of control. I there was that that whole era where they were so concerned with controlling everyone because essentially, from what I understand, they were afraid of what happened in Germany happening here. Because, I mean, to a certain extent, like, you can you can blame Hitler as a personality, but it takes people being excited about a person like that to create that problem.
Bobby Campbell:There's a million Hitlers on this planet right now. We just don't listen to them, most of them. Right. You know what I mean? Like, so it it a charismatic figure is only as damaging as the populace that is willing to be seduced by them.
Bobby Campbell:And so they were very, very concerned that that could happen in The United States. And this is actually this I've and I've been rereading the historical Illuminatus Chronicles, and this this is something that that Raw talks about a lot that the French revolution wasn't created by anyone. It was just societal pressures. It it it's like it's like a rain storm building. There there were jobs were going down.
Bobby Campbell:The price for food was going up. Once those two figures become too far from each other, it's the conditions for revolution. It doesn't take anyone going around saying, let's have a revolution. It's just if people are too hungry, there becomes a revolution. It's a and and so I I think to some degree, it was they burned his books because they were so concerned about controlling the populace and that that was just a a a, like, kind of paradigm shift that was a little bit too unpredictable, I think Mhmm.
Bobby Campbell:For them. I mean, there could be a a million reasons why it happened, but that's my intuition is that they were like that they just didn't want people believing strange things that they didn't understand.
AP Strange:Yeah. I will. I mean, he's a fascinating figure. I mean, I could I could probably do a whole show on on Reich by himself with somebody.
Bobby Campbell:I remember one time I found one of Will Wilhelm Reich's early books. I forget which one it was, but it was no. It wasn't even one of his books. It was his letters. And he so and I I read it.
Bobby Campbell:It was at the University of Delaware Library, and I found a a batch of his letters. And it was when he was my age at the time. So I was in my early twenties. He was in his early twenties. And he wrote exactly like how I do.
Bobby Campbell:Exactly. With with all the exclamation points and all the, like, all that kind of, like, hyper verbose shit. It was like reading my own letters. It was uncanny. It was uncomfortable, actually.
Bobby Campbell:I was like, oh shit, is that how I come across? I should dial it back a bit.
AP Strange:Yeah. I found one of his early books at one point. It was The Bayon Experiments.
Bobby Campbell:Okay. Yeah.
AP Strange:Before he developed the idea of organ, he was talking about cells called bions he Interesting. Could actually observed, know, and then that kind of mutated into his organ ideas. So it was kind of a it's it was a weird little snapshot that escaped being burned, I guess.
Bobby Campbell:Right. Yeah.
AP Strange:What's Ended up at a used bookstore. Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:What's your what's your take on the orgone? Is I'd like because you might know more about it than me. I it sounds like. Is there anything there, or is it more like my impression where it's kind of a little loosey goosey?
AP Strange:Well, it's well, it's definitely loosey goosey. I mean, I I it sounds nutso, but I've believed much weirder things in my life. Sure.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. Yeah. I
AP Strange:I love the idea of cloudbusters and organ accumulators. If I if I had the opportunity, I would I would sit inside of a organ accumulator and try
Bobby Campbell:Oh, sure. See what happens, you know.
AP Strange:I'd I'd be a guinea pig for that. And actually, there's a museum and where his old place up in Rangeley, Maine was now. It's like
Bobby Campbell:Oh, a yeah. I've heard of this. Yeah.
AP Strange:You can actually stay there. It's called Oregon on.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah yeah.
AP Strange:The Wilhelm Reich Museum and someday someday I'll go up there and spend a night or something. Yeah. It's just in a weird part of Maine that I'm never near when I when I do go to Maine, but
Bobby Campbell:For sure. Yeah. Yeah.
AP Strange:But yeah. No. I I I'd like to know more. I mean, I've read a bit about him and I do have Roz book about him.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah, play, Wilhelm Reich in Hell, right?
AP Strange:Yeah, right.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Love
AP Strange:Yeah. So I'll have to read that at some point and I do have a pretty good biography about him that I read a long time ago, But yeah, I mean as far as the Oregon ideas themselves go, I'm not not totally sold, but I I do find it fascinating. I like the UFO kind of, angle to it as well. Yeah. Used cloudbusters, he could summon flying saucers or destroy them with
Bobby Campbell:Oh interesting, oh I didn't know that.
AP Strange:Oh I love that. Yeah, that was part of it.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah, yeah.
AP Strange:So yeah. So I I think he's a fascinating figure. I'd have to look into
Bobby Campbell:him a little more. Yeah. I mean, I I would say there's there's probably something equivalent to Oregon. There you know what I mean? There's some sort of, like, energy that circulates amongst everyone.
Bobby Campbell:Yep. I I I don't know that we understand it, but I I I would not be surprised if at some point that was something that was discovered and and worked out because Yeah. Why wouldn't there be, you know?
AP Strange:Yeah. I mean, people would call it key probably like Yeah. Key Gong type stuff. There's a million different ways to look at it, but I think it goes back to what you had said earlier where a lot of this stuff is transient playful, Like where it's Yeah. Just a Yeah.
AP Strange:It's a phantom. So you can't really quantify it and you'll never be able to, but you know it's there.
Bobby Campbell:That's how I am with magic as well. Magic is something that, you know, can for sure produce results, and that's the problem with it. Yeah. That's the the main problem with magic is that it appears to work. And I I think that's I I think the only reason why anybody gets into any trouble with it is because of that fact, because it does work.
AP Strange:And It does work. Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. But you can get yourself in trouble with the belief system that comes from the experience of magic working, I think.
AP Strange:Yeah. No. You can absolutely scare yourself, you know, and Right.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. Or the idea of, like, kind of like cities, s I d d h i's. I think that's something that is not necessarily great for your mindset if you think you have more power over reality than you actually do, I think that's something that can come back and bite you.
AP Strange:Yeah. But it usually does, and then most of us learn from that and don't do that.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Exactly.
AP Strange:Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I feel like we've been going for a little while now, and this is this has been a blast. It's always fun talking to you, Bob.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. No. Right back at I appreciate it.
AP Strange:As far as the new issue of Tales of Illuminatus goes, Where are we at in in the book for this one?
Bobby Campbell:So actually, so what I've done is we're taking a break from the Illuminatus trilogy And instead, we're circling back to the historical Illuminatus chronicles. So I'm picking up from where Raw left off at the end of Nature's God with Sigismundo back in Europe and about to cause problems for the aristocracy in in Europe and those that would like to make him the the king of Europe, and he is not interested in the job. And
AP Strange:Okay.
Bobby Campbell:So we're yeah. So so, yeah, so we're we're trying to continue where Raw left off because Raw had a vision that he wanted to have a continuous timeline from Sigismundo in the late eighteenth century all the way to a, like, outer space space station habitat. And so we're gonna try to kinda thread that needle for him and have the timeline expand a little bit. And then Todd Todd's pages, he's gonna go back to masks of the Illuminati with Albert Einstein, Alastair Crowley, and James Joyce Okay. And their initiation of John Babcock that happens at the end of that novel.
Bobby Campbell:So the idea is I we're kinda playing around with the other corners of the Illuminatus universe and Okay. The just kind of expanding things a little bit. Because I felt like, you know, people that have read Illuminatus, it's kind of boring to just do a recitation of the novels Mhmm. Without any sort of, you know, other avenues of exploration. So I wanted to to bring something new to the table in addition to our, you know, staging of the trilogy.
AP Strange:Yeah. Well, that sounds great because it's you're getting into some deeper cuts there with the Yeah. The roster. Yeah. Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:No. It's a lot of lot of esoteric stuff digging into some of the weirder parts of the mythos. So, I've been I've spent the past couple of months just kind of pouring through all the material and yeah, it's it is set up. If you haven't read those books, it's fine. You don't need to have read those books.
Bobby Campbell:But if you have, think it'll be pretty fun. A lot of people have been clamoring for the fourth book in the Illuminatus Chronicles was going to be called The World Turned Upside Down. And one of the most frequent comments I see about Raw is people asking where that book is, which unfortunately does not exist, but maybe this is the next closest equivalent, which is trying to trying to continue from the setup that he leaves at the end of Nature's God. So because at the very end of Nature's God, he clearly sets up all the pieces for the next part of the story. And so I'm just kind of running that story forward from the setup that he leaves us with.
AP Strange:Oh, well, yeah. That's awesome then. Yeah. Well, I I do recommend people check it out. Where can they go to to find all this?
Bobby Campbell:So talesofilluminatus.com, will have, so we're doing pre orders for issue two, or I'm sorry, for issue three right now. So we're doing a kickstarter campaign. Fortunately, we already hit our goals. So we're green lit to move forward, but we're taking pre orders. I think the campaign runs until June 22.
Bobby Campbell:I think we'll take late orders right up until the book goes to press. So the book's going to go to press in July. And then so that'll be it for issues one, two, and three. So we're not gonna go back to press on issues one, two, and three after this order because in the fall, we're gonna collect all three issues together into a nice trade paperback. So we'll have a nice, like, book with a nice spine that can sit on a shelf and kinda serve as the cornerstone that we build the rest of the series on.
AP Strange:Alright. Well, that's awesome. Yeah.
Bobby Campbell:Right on. Yeah.
AP Strange:Okay. And if people wanna follow you personally, you have your own website as well.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. Bobbobbycampbell.net will have all the relevant links. My that my stuff's all over the place. But if you go to bobbycampbell.net, you'll find my newsletter and my comics pages and stuff like that. Oh, what what you know what?
Bobby Campbell:One thing I did this spring, I created a Illuminatus video game called Cthulhu's Wake. It's a it it now that it's it's very basic games. It's like mini games. It's kind of like because I, you know, I've taught computer science for about a decade. And so it's all the kind of, like, starter coding games that I would teach to So my there's like there's like a flappy bird game.
Bobby Campbell:There's like a apple catcher game. There's like a breakout game. Nice. There's all kinds of stuff. You know, when when the Internet goes out and you have the the dinosaur that jumps over the cactuses on Google.
Bobby Campbell:Have you ever run into that?
AP Strange:Yeah. Yep.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. So there's that, but it's the dolphin jumping over the pyramid, like, on the cover of the book. Nice. So like I said, there's there's nine different mini games on there, and I'm I'm real happy with how it turned out. And it's basically Illuminatus versus Cthulhu.
Bobby Campbell:So Cthulhu, the the Illuminati are waking up Cthulhu, and it's up to Howard and Hagbard to lull Cthulhu back to sleep. And also up up to the the player, the player of the game. Right. Cthulhu back to sleep. And, yeah, it it's pretty fun.
Bobby Campbell:So it's that's also talesofluminatus.com. If you scroll down a little bit, you can play the games.
AP Strange:Oh, that all sounds wonderful.
Bobby Campbell:Right. Yeah.
AP Strange:So listeners, get on that. Check that stuff out. So but thanks so much for coming on again, Bob. This was great.
Bobby Campbell:Oh, yeah. No. Thanks for having me. Thanks for for talking out. You know, I I think we solved most of society's problems, so they're welcome.
Bobby Campbell:So every everything we said, get on that. And Yeah. Hopefully by, this upcoming, Thursday, you know, you'll start to see some improvements, around the world. Easy stuff.
AP Strange:To thank us, you know.
Bobby Campbell:Yeah. No. I yes. Checks made payable to
AP Strange:Yeah. Alright. Well, you have yourself a great night, and we'll talk again soon.
Bobby Campbell:You as well. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.