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I talk with Cameron Moll, a veteran web designer, leader, consultant, maker, and family man. Our wide-ranging conversation covers longevity in a fast-moving industry, diverse management and design styles, the power of authenticity, the importance of diversity, how Cameron's faith informs his values, and the significance of cultivating hobbies. Join us as we explore what keeps Cameron excited about his career and life.
Topics discussed:
Topics discussed:
- (00:00) - Introduction
- (01:05) - Supporting the Show
- (01:53) - Introducing Cameron Moll
- (06:13) - Balancing Design and Management
- (17:58) - The Importance of Authenticity in Leadership
- (26:59) - Family and Career Balance
- (32:22) - Diversity and Team Dynamics
- (38:09) - Faith and Professional Life
- (42:43) - Building Long-Term Relationships in the Industry
- (45:20) - The Nature of Competition and Collaboration
- (46:54) - Balancing Performance and Well-being
- (50:51) - The Role of a Good Manager
- (01:09:31) - The Importance of Hobbies and Creativity
- (01:22:32) - Music and Personal Joy
- (01:25:50) - Conclusion and Final Thoughts
- AI and Design Systems course
- Brad Frost's Courses
- Cameron Moll's Website
- Cameron Moll's Shop (posters & doits)
- Zac Brown Band (Also available on Spotify and Apple Music)
- Miles Davis - Kind of Blue (Also available on Spotify and Apple Music)
- John Coltrane (Also available on Spotify and Apple Music)
- Spotify: "This Is Zac Brown Band" Playlist
Creators and Guests
Host
Guest
What is Wake Up Excited!?
Inspiring conversations with exuberant humans about how to live a creative, fulfilling, and authentic life. Hosted by enthusiasm enthusiast, Brad Frost.
We experience a brief moment of truth when we first wake up in the morning. Before the cold shower of reality, our infinite to-do lists, and macro-level woes seize our consciousness. We experience a brief moment of excitement — and this pure moment tells us something important about ourselves.
There are people out there who seem to move through life with intention, authenticity, creativity, kindness, and enthusiasm. And they do this despite the deeply inperfect world we inhabit. This podcast is an attempt to learn from these people.
Through wide-ranging conversations, Wake Up Excited explores guests' passions, interests, enthusiasms, and philosophy of life.
Brad Frost: Welcome to Wake Up Excited!
In this episode I talk with Cameron Moll.
Cameron is a veteran web designer,
leader, consultant maker, family
man, and is one heck of a nice guy.
I've been learning from Cameron for as
long as I've been working on the web, so
I was thrilled to be able to have such
a wide ranging conversation with him.
We cover a lot of ground talking about
longevity and age in a fast moving
industry, different management, design,
and teaching styles, the power of
authenticity in building trust in creative
teams, the importance of diversity in
all dimensions, how Cameron's faith
informs his values and operating
system, why attitude matters so much.
Cultivating hobbies for the hell of it,
and the never ending task of finding
balance in a world full of obligations.
Before we begin, I wanna remind you that
Wake Up excited is entirely self-funded,
kind of acting as my own advertiser here.
So if you'd like to support the
show and the rest of my work and
my family, I'd love it if you
checked out our online courses.
We just launched pre-orders for a
brand new course called AI and Design
Systems that teaches your team how
to create great digital products by
combining the generative power of
AI with the thoughtful constraints
and guardrails of a design system.
So you could check that out at
aianddesign.systems, and you could check
out our other courses about digital design
and development bradfrost.com/courses.
All right.
Without any further ado, here's
my conversation with Cameron Mall.
Welcome to the wake up excited podcast.
I'm super excited to
have Cameron Moll here.
Right off the bat.
what has you waking up excited?
Cameron Moll: Oh, gosh.
so maybe I should start here.
Probably not the right place to start,
but I have a love hate relationship
with, my career, with design, with
tech and everything else like that.
And so there's, Some things that
just frustrate me to no end, you
know, I think I'm preaching to the
choir to some degree to you and maybe
other people listening to this, that
it's, it can be a tough industry.
And yet I still wake up super
excited that I get to design.
I mean, seriously, I, I get to
design stuff that people use.
they, they interact with it.
It might change their lives.
It might make their day a little
bit better, whatever it is.
I mean, the fact that we get to do that
day in and day out, think 25 years into
it, I wouldn't have expected myself to
still be excited about designing, but
I'm just as excited as I've ever been.
Brad Frost: That's beautiful.
and that, that longevity especially
in a medium is not all that old.
Cameron Moll: Yeah.
I mean, really what we've been doing is,
is almost like the Genesis of, of when
you and I both started, tech and design.
Pieces components coming together.
It's still a relatively nascent industry.
And so in the early days,
we were just making it up.
And I think that kind of making
it up has never gone away.
We're in an era now where we're
kind of making things up with
a I right in a different way.
And so I think some of that making up ness
is what keeps me on my toes, which keeps
us, I think, engaged in this industry.
But I think also leads to the hate
side for me of like, Oh, yeah.
It feels like I'm always chasing
what's next around the corner.
And can I really stay on top of my
game, especially when I have people
literally now half my age coming up
that are fantastic designers, right?
And they know how to, how
to do AI prompting really
well or something like that.
And so, you know, trying to stay
up with that pace can sometimes be
literally exhausting, but, uh, I think
I'm still holding my own so far, but,
uh, we'll see how long that lasts.
Brad Frost: Do you, do you feel
that, like, you feel that, that
kind of replacement pressure,
like, do you feel that way?
Cameron Moll: You know, I've, I've
felt that way for a long time now.
I think it was most evident when
I joined a Facebook Meta back
in 2016 and so many of my peers.
We're so much younger than myself.
you know, I had five kids at the time
coming into that role and most of my
peers were either not married or if
they were, they didn't have kids yet.
And so it did feel like everyone
around me was kind of running circles
around me because they were younger
and whatever else that might equate to.
It's this weird, unnecessary pressure,
maybe that I've placed on myself
that there's somebody who's going to
replace me if I don't keep my game up.
And so therefore I always have
to be a better designer, a better
leader, you know, staying on top
of trends and all of those things.
And it's just, it's an
unrealistic expectation.
It really is self imposed.
Yes, there might be someone who would
replace me at some point, but this is now,
you know, I joined Facebook what in 2016.
So this is nine years ago.
Nobody's killed me off.
And nobody's probably going to kill
me off for another nine years, right?
So this is really something I
should not be worrying about.
But it, I think it's just the, the, the
environment that surrounds us, that this,
this environment, this industry welcomes
people to start at a very young age.
And so I think that will
always be the case, right?
The tinkers, the explorers,
whatever, age 16, 14.
Can you name it?
There's always going to be people
around us that bring in this vibrant
energy that, that at our ages now, we
literally don't have the same energy
we had 25 years ago, 30 years ago.
But needless to say, we have
the other things they don't,
the wisdom, the experience.
I mean, you just go on and on name, the
number of things that we bring to the
table and need to remind ourselves of
that we still have so much to offer.
Brad Frost: absolutely.
And, and it's in the combination of
those things that great things can
happen because if you put a bunch
of, inexperienced people together and
say, go and point them at something,
they're going to make a freaking mess.
Right.
at the same time, so, so that, that
tension is, kind of welcome because
you get people who have been through
the ringer enough times to know, these
weird left turns, or here's these really
dangerous areas to avoid and here's the
real armor, you know, here's here's where
that path will take you and to have that
vantage point is really helpful what
have you found to be helpful to kind
of take that pressure off of yourself?
Obviously, like, it doesn't
ever fully go away again.
You're always like, am I still relevant?
Et cetera, et cetera.
Cameron Moll: Yeah, I think
two things come to mind.
Number one, so over the last few
years, I've been on this journey to
figure out what as a design leader,
does my role really need to be at this
stage of my career as I lead teams,
as I write and those sorts of things.
But I'm in this tussle right now of
how much I should be managing design.
And how much I should be actually doing
design and kind of leading through design.
One of my peers at Metta would often say,
you know, because he was not doing any
design, nor was I doing design as head of
design for the Facebook events platform.
I mean, I can literally count on.
Two hands, the number of times
that in three years I ever opened
up sketch, it was sketch back
then or figma to design stuff.
It was that infrequent.
And so my peer would often say, you know,
I, I designed through people that he's,
he's kind of designing through his teams.
And that's, I think what a lot of
the industry became over the last.
Eight, 10 years where we have a lot of
middle level and upper level managers
that are mostly managing people.
And they're kind of managing design
through, through other people.
I think we're seeing some of that
come back to the earlier days of our
industry, where now we have leaders
that are, that are more hands on.
And that's been my kind of shift
over the last couple of years in
particular, where I'm now starting
to do more design than I've done.
Getting back to, to maybe a creative
director role for a lack of a better
term, that's a terrible title to
use, but it's along those lines.
And so for me, it's, it's kind
of balancing the act of managing
design and managing design
through people with showing people
what great design looks like.
And so I've had to, you know, um, I'm
very much now in Figma, uh, these days.
I'm very much in, in just the, the nuts
and bolts and the trenches of design.
And I, I really enjoy that, but
I also have to balance that with
still managing and leading design.
So I don't know that I could tell you
right now if I've figured it out, right?
The balance between managing
design through other people.
And doing design and showing
what great design looks like.
But I think there's, there's that it's a
good tussle to be having for myself and
perhaps for, you know, for others to have
that tussle of what is that right balance.
And for me at this stage of my, of
my career, it is not what my five
previous years were, were at Facebook
and then later at Pendo where I
was really not doing any design.
I think where I'm at now where I'm
doing some design and some management
slash leadership is, is where I
need to be operating right now.
So I find a lot of Value getting back to
your question and being able to combat
those feelings of, Oh, I can't design
because you know, these people are younger
and faster and all of those things.
Well, no, I, I actually still can,
I think design relatively well.
And so I feel like I'm still in the
game, so to speak, by doing that, I'm
remembering number two, but before I go
to number two, I'm going to pause there.
If you have anything that
you want to jump in and say.
Okay.
Okay.
Brad Frost: in that there's this
multi dimensionality to it that
you could lead by demonstration.
You could lead by modeling.
You could lead by by just doing the
thing and sort of saying it's like this.
Whenever I consult with companies, we
get in there and our whole ethos is
around teaching a team how to fish.
We always talk about this
idea of like a crossfade.
Where it's just I'm going to do
this the first round, the next
round, you know, we're going to
do it kind of in equal parts.
And then the last round, you're going to
do it and I'm going to be just more, you
know, backseat, hovering art director
style, nudging and guiding, but you're
going to be taking on the bulk of it.
So it's the it's the action, the
teaching the demonstration is the words.
It's the it's the act.
It's the all of that stuff kind of hanging
together that yields good results versus.
It's it's this or it's that and there
used to be like, one last thing I'll say
is like, I come from the agency world and
that was a big conundrum for designers.
There is like a specific design path and
a career ladder and eventually you end up.
Where you ended up, which is, oh
yeah, you're, you're such a good
designer that you no longer do it.
It's just,
Cameron Moll: Okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brad Frost: What I am interested in.
I don't think I'm particularly good at it.
It's not, it's not going to fill my
cup, which is a totally valid path.
I just want to keep doing what I'm doing.
I just kind of want to.
get compensated, I guess, or,
or, or sort of the, the status
that comes with that or whatever.
So, as I've sort of like turned
towards like teaching, which is
effectively what design leadership is.
It's like, you, you are a teacher and
there's a lot of different modalities
to teaching and, Teaching by way of
of doing and demonstration or like
really potent and powerful tools.
Cameron Moll: I mean, you're making
some really important points here.
We've, we've matured as an industry for
the most part, where you, it used to be
like, you were saying that if you wanted
to progress in your career, you had to go
into management and stop designing, right?
So we take these fantastic
designers and turn them into
people and process managers, and
they would not design anymore.
And now we have a lot of companies
have a management track for promotion.
And, and I see typically called an IC
individual contributor track where you
can get up to like principal level,
staff level and things like that.
And we're seeing more of those titles
just, uh, over the last week I've
seen principal titles on LinkedIn
more than maybe I have recently.
And, and so I think we've really
matured, but I don't think we figured
out is what you touched on earlier.
And that is for the management track.
It's often a belief that once
you go into that track, it's like
your, your design days are over.
Right.
And you can no longer.
Manage and do design, right?
You're done.
You're going up that track and it
doesn't need to be a binary decision.
In some cases, it does be certainly when
you get into higher levels, you know, at,
uh, you're probably doing a lot of people
in process management, but I, I'm starting
to disagree more with the notion that,
you know, even at a chief level design
role, you should be doing zero design.
I'm, I'm, I'm just, I'm starting
to question if that's actually the
reality of where we should be going
as an industry, or if there's.
There still needs to be some element of
a very senior level manager, director,
whatever, who is still doing some design.
And, and, and we could talk forever about
what doing some design means, right?
That could be clock that
could be outside of work.
That could be sitting in
design critiques, right?
And that's your form of designing.
But the point I'm trying to get at
is, is I just don't think we need to
let go of the act of designing maybe
as much as we believed we've needed
to over the last five to seven years.
And I keep using that, you know, timeframe
of five to seven, eight to 10, whatever,
cause that's been my experience of going
to like, let's call it the Silicon Valley
type mindset of, you know, we, we have
the manager track, the IC track and never
the trains shall meet in some respects.
And I think it's a good.
Time to be asking the question.
Is that the right way
to go for our industry?
Now, let me, uh, segue into
something you mentioned as well.
And that is point number two.
One of the things I really enjoy now
and get excited about, and that helps
me maybe temper the feeling that I'm
getting replaced by younger people is.
Yeah.
I love being able to teach
and educate and mentor.
And you can certainly do that through
designing like we're talking about
now, but you can also do that through
route writing and speaking and
all of these other things, right?
You and I've been doing
this for a very long time.
two.
2005 South by Southwest was the very
first time I spoke at a conference.
And for me back then I was six
years into my career and I probably
should not have been on stage.
I'm like, who am I to actually know
what I'm talking about, but here I am.
And so back then it was like pretending
that I know everything to some.
Now it's like I, I don't know everything
now, but I sure know a lot more now.
And so now I, I feel very confident
in my ability to educate and
mentor and, and kind of lift up
the next generation of designers.
And so that, that makes me really
excited whether or not I'm frightened
by the fact that they're half my age
and they can design better than I am.
I've got all these other things that they
don't have yet that I can help them get to
a, a, a much better spot in their careers.
Brad Frost: Yeah, it's beautiful.
And I think that there's a
real potent and powerful.
Thing that happens when you make
that connection through sharing
what you've learned, you do a great
job at sort of bearing the hard
stuff and here is that struggle.
What you're able to do, especially
whenever, you know, you've been
at this for a long time to just
even say the things you're saying
now that it itself is a gift.
To a lot of people because a lot of
people are that six years or less in their
careers and they're like, ah, I shouldn't
be on stage or whatever, like, or who am
I to say this whenever there's all these
other people that are doing it and I think
that it's that Willingness to share and
be vulnerable and to demonstrate that and
to say, hey, here, here are these feelings
and here are these things and here are
these things that I'm wrestling with.
And guess what?
Nobody has it figured out.
You're not alone in that.
There's something really, really
important there because it deflates so
much of that just really toxic mentality
that I feel like gets in the way Of
really good stuff from happening like
there's a real Power to that just
like hey, don't know how this works.
It's like holy shit.
He actually said it He actually
said it like yeah, I don't I
don't get how it works either.
All right, let's figure it out, you
know There's something cool in there.
Nobody has this figured out.
And anybody that pretends they
do, I will sit back and Mm hmm.
Sure you, sure you do.
Tell me how this is all gonna go down.
Cameron Moll: I'm so glad we're
talking about this and here's why
authenticity has been so important to me.
As a leader and in everything
that I do, um, I don't know that
I've, this is why I love that.
We're talking about this.
I'm not sure that I've ever
written or talked about this.
It's not secretive, but you know,
back in the earliest days I called my
website, my blog, authentic boredom.
you know, I founded a board
called authentic jobs.
My flicker username was authentic.
I mean, all of these things, and I don't
think I was trying to be pretentious,
but it was kind of underscoring that I
care a great deal about authenticity.
So to your point, it matters a great deal
to me that I let people know that I don't
have everything figured out and that
I'm learning from something and that I
made a mistake here or things like that.
You know, that's, I appreciate
seeing this in the people that lead.
And direct to me, you know, and I
know that people that I've led and the
teams that I've worked with certainly
appreciate seeing that Cameron doesn't
have everything figured out the,
the reason why I, I think I really
enjoy this is because much of the
leadership world, and especially in
tech, you're not supposed to do that.
You're supposed to look like
you have things figured out.
You're supposed to always be confident.
And, and I, I'm kind of intentionally
not that person sometimes because a,
that's just fundamentally not who I am.
And B, I want people to see that
there is another way to lead and to
manage, and that is to let people know
that you don't have it figured out.
Brad Frost: And, and in fact, At some
point, when somebody does pretend to
know all the answers, back to that
authenticity, it's like, there is no
way you authentically know everything
that's, that's going on, not to totally,
like, wade into politics, but when you
talk about something that's so huge.
multifaceted To show up with
like certitude around all of it.
Like here's exactly what we're gonna do.
It's like me a break me an absolute
break, there's kind of an interesting
dynamic there because there's a
difference between Confidence,
which is a good quality, right?
And authenticity, which is
a good quality and, truth.
And there's a lot of stuff
like wrapped up in that, but
you're out of your
depth, or it's like, eh.
I know a little bit
Cameron Moll: and
Brad Frost: Certain coming back to a
certain area of our field, it almost
is, is promoting that kind of arrogance.
And that's, that's, that's
hard, especially whenever it's
like, you got a bunch of people
competing for the same jobs.
Like the last thing you
want to do go, I don't know.
I don't know
Cameron Moll: mean, there is a reality
that you do set yourself up for some
bad situations, bad, you know, not
great results when you go down the
path of saying, I don't know, or I
need to time to figure this out, you
know, and there can be that void, that
vacuum that you create that will be
filled by someone else and that someone
else may now start to take on the very
things that you wanted to take on.
Right.
So there is, there is, an
inherent risk in doing that.
But for me, you know, I'm not going to try
to pretend someone to be someone I'm not.
And I want people around me to know that
we are part of solving a problem together,
that I don't have everything figured out.
I've got a good idea and I can, I've
got a good understanding of the process
we're going to use to get there,
but this is a team sport, right?
And so if I, if I make it apparent
that I kind of know where we're going
guys, but I need your help in this.
People start to get bought into that.
Some people are not like that.
I mean, I, I managed and worked
with enough people that some people
don't like being led by the, I
don't know, authentic profile types.
They want the.
Uber confident, you know, super confident.
They want that type of leader
and they're turned off.
I've seen this happen personally
before they're turned off by
that style of leader, the Cameron
style of leader, let's call it.
But at the end of the day, I can't be
the, the leader for everyone, right?
I got to be the leader
I'm most effective at.
And if that's not going to work for some
people, I have to be okay with that.
Okay.
Yeah.
Brad Frost: at some point, though,
it does become a reflection of,
you know, the individual of ethos
and what their operating system is.
as you're saying it, I, like, the
thought that came to mind is like.
wish that I had more time to watch
basketball, but like growing up and
being in like in the nineties and
stuff would watch a lot of basketball.
And so you'd see college basketball
and it's just, you know, they'd work
the ball around the whole perimeter
and pass the ball like eight times
before somebody goes up for a shot.
And then in stark contrast was the
professionals who, you know, is
just totally a game of one on one.
They'd, you know, only dish it off
if, if they are triple teamed and,
and, and they couldn't take it any
further and even then it's still
probably try to go up for a shot.
And I remember that contrast being so
stark where it's like, here you have this,
like, well oiled team machinery and it's
real collaborative understanding versus
this, like, I'm a freaking superstar and
I guess you'll be around if I need you
I don't know That's that's that's like
that's what came to my mind and I think
that that silicon valley Ethos is that
is that rock star developer designer or
whatever or that the people have just been
fed A lot of stuff at the end of the day,
the reality remains what you said earlier.
This is a team sport is a team
sport, irrespective of if you
want to admit that or not.
that's on you, reality is, unless you are
building that database from the ground
up, the CI CD pipeline in addition to
your brand guidelines, in addition Get
over yourself, you know, like you rely on
other people, other people rely on you.
That is a reality.
Cameron Moll: On a percent on a percent.
And I think it goes without saying to our
peers that are listening in those Silicon
Valley areas or companies that there's
plenty of good work that's being done.
I think sometimes we over dramatize
what might happen and, you know,
The big pockets of our industry,
but it can, it can happen anywhere.
It doesn't matter if you're in
Florida myself or anywhere else, it
can happen in all of those places.
But for me, I think I've tried
to carry that, you know, we
lived in Utah for 10 years.
That's where my career started.
And then we moved to Florida
and then we moved to back to
California and back to Florida.
And so I've tried to carry with
me, you know, anywhere I've gone.
I've tried to carry, you know, Cameron's
management style as best as I could,
even though to some degree we all have
to conform to whatever our current
employer is and, and we kind of let
some things go dormant in the ways
that we manage and design and so forth.
And that's totally fine in an effort to
be able to play the game in a good way.
At the end of the day, We've got to
keep parts of us that are uniquely us.
And for me, it's just been making
sure I, I don't always come off like
I've got everything figured out.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Brad Frost: think that that's amazing
and back to that authenticity.
I think that that matters.
And just as you're sort of reminding me
of your different geographical changes,
there's the old phrase, like, no matter
where you go, there you are, right?
Cameron Moll: Yep.
Brad Frost: I don't know if you feel this
way, but I think that a lot of people.
And to be a part of their environment
and an episode of getting carried
away by it or swept away by it and
and there's there's something that's
really interesting and as someone who
has all over there like formal handles
like that that idea of kind of having a
good sense of self having a good value
system and having a good introspective
look and understanding of what you're
doing and how you're applying yourself.
Having that in place as you change
geographies, as you change jobs, as
you change like different things,
speak to that, like how, how you,
how you feel about that, that kind
of sense of self for that foundation.
And how that interacts with
wherever you happen to find yourself
Cameron Moll: square peg and round hole
for my entire career, and on the one
hand, I appreciate the Insights that I've
been able to acquire because of that.
And on the other hand, I'm, I'm
appreciative of my peers that
have been maybe understanding of
being a square peg in that round
hole for again, my entire career.
If I can go way back, the timing
was such that we, we found out we
were, so I got married when I was 22.
We had our, our first
kid at 24 when I was 24.
And I remember the timing of.
finding out we were pregnant with
the first one and getting offered a
full time, my first full time role in
web design happened almost two weeks
of each other, something like that.
Brad Frost: my God.
Cameron Moll: So I've not known
anything other than having like
kids, my literally my entire career.
My oldest is now 24 and we have five sons.
They're all sons.
Two of them are now married.
And so it's just like, wow, it's just
like what happened over these last.
two and a half decades.
So the family part of it, I think has
kept me grounded for, in every aspect.
It's kept me grounded in terms of like, I
need to shut off and go home because I've
got, you know, responsibilities at home.
It's kept me grounded in terms
of what really matters to me.
Do I care that much about design that
I'm going to, you know, exhaust my, all
my available weekends doing design work
or are there other things that matter?
Just as much or perhaps matter even more.
And of course my family
matters more than those things.
And so for me, work has been a
vehicle to provide for my family and
to be able to provide a wonderful
upbringing for five outstanding sons.
And so that's always had to
be part of how I've operated.
And I think that, I don't think, but I
know that has informed how I've managed.
And when I have someone now that I'm
literally managing people that are the
same age as my kids, I get it right.
I understand what that kid
perhaps has been through in
their life up to this point.
I understand their aspirations.
I understand just a bunch of
things that a lot of managers.
Maybe don't understand
that human component.
They understand the processes and
the design systems and all those
things, but maybe they don't get
the mental health side of things.
Like you got a human being sitting
across the table from you that might
be suffering severely from depression
and you're having to figure out how
to work with them as their manager.
And they're not kind of like
put it all on the table.
You're not their therapist, but you do
need to understand that that's part of
the calculus of managing this person,
they might not be able to show up at work.
You know, tomorrow, because they just
are in a really bad funk and it's going
to take a day or two to get out of that.
How do you deal with that as a manager?
So I think that's really helped me to be
a different person throughout my career
than I would have been otherwise without
having a family as a big part of that.
Brad Frost: you.
experienced having five children through
this immensely challenging period of
COVID it's should be talked about more.
It's like, man, that messed us up.
That messed us all up.
But you talk about a bunch of young minds.
My young, my youngest cousin, who
is quite a bit younger, she missed
her senior year of high school
in her first year of university.
And it's like, man, you want to talk about
some of the most important times, like
you're establishing your sense of self.
these young
Cameron Moll: Yeah,
Brad Frost: that ability for you to
empathize with what they're going
through is huge you wouldn't get if
yeah, you're maybe like years old and
haven't figured out, but you haven't had
those kids of your own yet or whatever.
So, yeah,
Cameron Moll: our second oldest
went through that exact experience
that you just described there.
We had his graduation.
Oh, back.
Yeah, we had his graduation back in our,
our yard and in a bunch of other things.
And it was, man, that was
a tough period for them.
something else I think is worth mentioning
is that I've tried to not, position myself
as being, more qualified as a manager than
my peers just because I have Children.
There's there's there's no reason
for me to like wield this sort
of I have kids and you don't.
And so therefore, I'm a
more experienced manager.
I've I've I've tried my best to never
take that approach because I think Any
manager has a fair shot at being a great
manager, whether or not they have kids.
Some, some, of course we have, we all,
I think have friends and family members
who are physically unable to have kids.
Right.
And there's that component as well.
And so I never want people around
me to feel like they're less than
I am because they don't have kids.
It's just to say that I might be able
to bring something to the table that
other managers can't bring to the table.
And I shouldn't be ashamed of that.
I should try to leverage that.
Okay.
Brad Frost: We all we, we come to,
to work into life our own privileges
and our own burdens and our own
unique experiences like that.
That is, it is a given.
That there is no carbine
copy of you around, right?
I think that that's one of the things
that upsets me so much whenever things
like diversity get sort of weaponized
and in this moment in time it is.
It's this really, you
know, hot button issue.
It's like, what we're talking about a
bunch of people that have a bunch of
perspectives, a bunch of experience,
the ability to come together and bring a
diversity of different life experiences.
make things better, like without
a doubt, without a doubt.
Oh, have you considered this?
Oh, no, I didn't, because I
didn't go through that or I
don't experience that, right?
In the same way that,
yeah, no kids, right?
You lived in Utah.
I've never lived in Utah, right?
Like it's, it's, and that's what,
that's what gets so gross about
like this, this kind of thing.
Weaponization and this and this
watering down of diversity.
It's like when you experience
the diversity of experience.
And a diversity of people you come
to appreciate, or at least this has
been the case for me, and I'm really
fortunate to have this perspective
is that you're like, oh, okay.
This is different.
This isn't better or worse.
you have, you have kids.
with it the, all the great lessons learned
from that and the perspective from that.
other person has had this
really weird adventure.
They lived a nomadic life for three years
and that gives them their own perspective.
Cameron Moll: Yep.
Brad Frost: And it's in the
coming together of all of those
different things is where really
beautiful things can happen.
And that's why I love back to back to
the sort of like the excitement of like
still getting to design and do things.
the fun you get to show up with those
other people who are bringing with it
their own tools, their own experience
to the table, and you get to point that.
In a direction together and like how
freaking cool is that like that's it.
That's it right there Like as as
a musician oh you you know how
to play Okay, we're gonna play.
don't know what their background is.
I don't know what genres they're
adept in or not But we're
going to figure it out, right?
Like we're going to have some fun
playing together and we'll make something
uniquely ours because like no two people
have had the exact same experience
Cameron Moll: Okay.
Brad Frost: background as us.
And it's, it seems so obvious to
me, but at the same time, like the,
it seems like there's an, it's said
explicitly, or it's just implicitly
there, it's false binary of, yeah.
There's a right way of doing things
and there's a wrong way of doing
things that frustrates me to know Oh,
Cameron Moll: on my, my music nerve for a
second, so I'm going to draw an example.
From there.
Um, I really love the music of,
Miles Davis and John Coltrane.
And, uh, you know, they're kind
of blue album, one of the best
albums I think of all time.
And, and that's a great example of
like two very different musicians
that come together to produce
something remarkable and beautiful.
And Miles Davis is like, he's
very articulate about like
the notes he plays, right?
They're selective.
They're here.
They're just a dash.
Here and then maybe waits for
a couple of seconds and then
throws in a couple more notes.
John Coltrane is like, he's
all over the map, right?
It's like,
Brad Frost: Yeah
Cameron Moll: how are those two
guys going to work together?
And, and I think that to your
point, I think that's, that's
how we, we operate best.
Sometimes I've, I've long said that some
of the worst teams are where you have.
A players, all they're all a
players on the team, so to speak.
And you don't have any, you know,
diversity, not only racially and
everything else, but you just don't
have diversity of like talent or of
experience and so on and so forth.
And so you want to bring together
those different voices and the
backgrounds that they have and
have kids and, and don't have kids.
And that's, I think when we produce
fantastic teams that are really capable
of, producing phenomenal experiences.
It's not that we need those things.
To produce great user experiences, right?
There's there's to some degree we
could do that without, you know,
talking extensively like we have been
about, um, you know, Cameron has kids
and you don't and blah, blah, blah.
We could still produce great work,
but I think it's just the nature
of those teams working together.
That magical things happen
when you allow that diversity.
And I like to think of it as
like full spectrum diversity,
age and race and, and, and
Brad Frost: Everything
Cameron Moll: You put that in a,
in this like pot and you allow just
these wonderful things to happen.
I don't know, I kind of go back to the
fact that I'm, I'm a little shocked And
very appreciative that some people have
been so welcoming of me over the years
because I, I do feel like this square pay.
I'm a very religious person to add
to having kids and everything else.
Right.
And so I've been very careful to not let
my beliefs bleed into the work that we do.
But inevitably, when I show up for
work, there's like the religious part
of Cameron that's coming to work.
And while you might not see that on
the surface, that's informing The
way that I manage that's informing
the way that even I design.
And so, the fact that we can allow
people, not only allow, but embrace
them to come to work with those things,
whether or not they're visible on the
surface, I think is, is that's our right.
That's our privilege.
That's what we need to be doing.
Brad Frost: Yeah No, that's that's
that's really beautifully said and i'm
glad you brought up your faith you're
there, you sort of have this like
sense of self and you're showing up.
my observation of you is that yes, you've,
you've been contemplating these things
and there's a real intentionality to it.
undoubtedly your faith has a big role in
that sort of reflection of like, well, who
am I and how am I operating in the world?
Can you, can you speak
to that a little bit?
Cameron Moll: Two things
are coming to mind.
So first, I think for me, I understand
the long game the way that, you know,
I have not only come to understand it
by the teachings of the beliefs that
I have, but who I've become as I've
acted on those beliefs and as I've
learned and had wonderful experiences.
Being a very religious person.
And so one, an example here is the
fact that I, I very firmly believe
that there is a life after this one.
And so therefore the things I'm doing
now will matter in, in the longer term.
And so how does that relate to what
I'm doing as a manager, as a person?
And the things I allow myself
to do or not to do, knowing that
I'm going to be held accountable.
My belief is that I'm going
to be held accountable at
some point for these actions.
And so I can't just write off, you
know, doing something stupid and, and
uh, whether or not it hurts anyone,
it doesn't matter, blah, blah, blah.
I just know that that's going to be part
of the calculus for me at some point.
And so that, that I think helps inform
maybe the decisions that, that I make
and two related to that, I can't say
I've always been the person at work
that I want to be or should be, but
I've tried to be someone at work
that is, uh, not only faithful to,
the responsibilities of the role.
And the employer that I'm working with or
whether or not it's my own company, but
it's also faithful to the things that I
believe in and the beliefs I have about
treating other people as my neighbor
and treating them with respect and love
and dignity and all of those things.
And we don't talk about like loving
others in the workplace, but there is
inherently a part of naturally what
I try to do that includes a component
of loving people in a neighborly way.
That, that I work with and I just,
you know, I have to find ways for
that to be part of how I operate.
Brad Frost: Those, those
have to be congruent.
You could, you couldn't be showing
up to, yeah, develop some weapons.
Cameron Moll: Here's the thing though.
I mean, there have been times where,
that people have done some wrong things
and maybe I've done wrong things too.
And you start getting into like
legal action and all of that.
And so it's like, how do I like show
neighborly love to someone like that?
So there's the reality of,
we have to still be firm.
In a secular sense, in a sense
that we're, we're doing work,
we're contractually obligated.
Some things go really wrong sometimes
in South and you have to take a firm
stance and it doesn't feel right.
It just feels icky and all of those
things, but it is part of life.
But at the end of the day, I still know
that there's a long term for me and I
try and, you know, I've got to navigate
that terrible situation in such a way
that I'll, I'll be okay with it, proud
of it when it's all said and done.
Brad Frost: I think that
that's really great.
It's like that, that kind of moral
compass and it sounds like you really,
you know, lean on your faith to, help
guide those difficult decisions where you
could take it a number of ways, right?
But it's there, there's almost that
almost, like, heard you saying it's like,
whenever fast forward 5 years down the
road, or in the cosmic sense, right?
At the end of life, how
will I look back on that?
And how will, you know, God or anyone me?
On how I acted in that moment and that
that perspective right that ability to
kind of open it up whether whether it's
God or, or just your future self like
Cameron Moll: Yeah.
Brad Frost: how I acted in that situation?
Are there things I could
have been doing better?
that ability to step outside of yourself
in that present moment is a really
powerful tool to, to make sure that you're
acting in accordance with, your true
self and how you want to be as a person,
Cameron Moll: what you're making me think
of is, okay, so Cameron's a square peg
in a round hole and all of those things,
but there is a business value in trying
to show up to work in a way that other
people want to work with you in a way
that allows you to see the good in other
people on, you know, the people that
are maybe listening to this episode,
I'll say to you what I'm going to say
to some students, some UX students,
very soon as I speak to them again, man,
relationships in our industry are just.
Invaluable.
I mean, you and I have known each
other for a very long time, right?
And that started many, many moons ago.
And we'd now had countless
interactions that our paths have
weaved in and out over the years.
And that's because we initially
established, you know, this, this
relationship that has now blossomed
into a phenomenal relationship.
And so there is business value in finding
ways to work well with other people.
That pay dividends for
many, many years to come.
And we've both seen that.
whether or not you are, you know,
someone of faith like myself, maybe
the takeaway is if you invest in, in
treating other people nice, that's
going to pay off in tremendous ways
over the course of your career.
Brad Frost: it seems like a no brainer
on a lot of levels, which is why kind
of coming back to that, like, kind
of rock star, go it alone attitude It
might work out for you the short term,
but like, in the long run, it's like,
you're burning bridges, you're doing all
this stuff that, you know, you'll find
yourself, without a leg to stand on.
you said, there's a business
value, but also, my god, it
is just the human thing to do.
And one of my favorite
things as a consultant to do.
Ducking my head into these organizations
that are various flavors of I don't
want to say dysfunctional but just as
we've kind of reminded each other of,
I think in this conversation is one of
the things that I love to do whenever
I'm working with teams, it's like.
Man, isn't this cool?
We all get to do this together.
Like, isn't this fun?
Like, I will say it out loud and
it's like, it'll get a chuckle.
yeah, it's it's kind of meant for a laugh,
but it's also I'm like, I'm being dead
serious here, like, this is so cool.
And we get to do this together.
And how cool is that, that like,
we get to like, have meetings where
we're figuring out like, what, what
color of blue, like this should be
like, there's a billion things we
could be doing that's worse than this.
And so cultivating that, like, Why
wouldn't you to just show up and do work
with people that you enjoy being around?
Why wouldn't you want to
cultivate those relationships?
Why wouldn't you?
Like, like what are you trying to
get out of, out of being competitive
or of being cutthroat or to, I
don't, I fundamentally don't get it.
But some people, I've learned there's
people I know that like to argue and
like that's kind of like a, pass the
time, I guess, like, they, they seem
to get like a real enjoyment out of it.
I don't understand it.
I can't do that, but it's like, there's
some people that just like to, do that.
Like, they're, they're kind
of wired a certain way.
I don't know.
Cameron Moll: don't, I don't know either.
I think there's definitely, uh,
sometimes individuals that bring maybe, a
contentious, approach to, to a discussion.
There are others that they're
just driven by excellence.
And so their form of trying to get
to the right outcome is to push
firmly and to push others, you
know, to, to, to be greater and to
work harder and all those things.
I think there is some jockeying that
happens, maybe a. Big amount of that
happening in some pockets where if, if
your company does performance reviews
every six months or whatever period
of time, right, you know, you're going
up against your peers for promotions
for raises, whatever it might be.
And so, you know, you're going
to have to kind of like show up
and be the strongest voice in the
room and to be the person that.
Came up with this brilliant solution.
And so there's, there's definitely
that dynamic that we've both seen
over the course of our careers.
But, uh, we, I dunno, we've got to
find a way to balance that to where
it's not all about the jockeying.
It's not all about like producing the
best experience mankind has ever known.
It's like, no, no, no.
Let's, let's enjoy this along.
Let's have some fun
doing it along the way.
Brad Frost: hard agree.
And I think that there is, there's like
a broader reframing where it's just
like, there's a scarcity of resources.
There's a scarcity of promotions.
There's only so much money
to go around or whatever.
You could absolutely see and
understand and appreciate that that
creates a culture of competition
that is born of that reality, right?
That sets up that psychological
game of like, well, like, how
much do I really want to give?
There's a lot of calculus there.
But at the end of the day, not a
surprise, or I would be surprised
if you disagreed with me, but
it's like that more collaborative
approach yields better results,
like 100 percent of the time, right?
So when you talk about that, like
scarcity of money or whatever that
might be, we'll stick with money.
It's like, well, if you as a team
yielded, you know, much better results and
therefore made more money, then it's like,
Cameron Moll: Yep.
Brad Frost: and that's, it's not the norm.
Cameron Moll: Yep.
Brad Frost: I don't think
that that's the norm.
It's absolutely possible.
It's just isn't, it's not the norm
Cameron Moll: yeah, and one of the
reasons this is so vitally important
to ongoing, production of, of, of great
output is because any team can work
together where Everybody's a jerk.
They hate each other.
And yet they ship a phenomenal
product at the end of the day.
But guess what?
That team is not going to work, want
to work together again a second time,
much less a third and fourth time.
And so you're looking at the
longer term of this machine, this
team, this company producing great
output consistently and regularly.
And to do that, you can't have
people Always jockeying for position.
You can't have people showing
up as jerks in meetings.
You got to find a way such
that the work is pleasurable.
At the same time, it's producing
high output, high quality.
Brad Frost: And, and that all feeds into
burnout and mental health and taking
good care of the people that you rely on.
that's why I just, it's such a tragedy.
it's more predominant in certain pockets,
but, but other places not where it's
just like, you need to grind the time.
If you're not working 12 hours a day,
then like, what are, what are you doing?
Like you said, yeah, that
might get that project done.
person is going to be a husk
and you can't sustain that.
And do you really want to have to go
through and put people through that
you really want to encourage that it's
such a counterproductive that is sure.
Yeah, he's right.
very strongly held.
It's very prevalent.
It is very prevalent.
And all you need to do is go
through it a couple times yourself
to go, I do not want that.
And if you're like anyone who's like
listening that's experienced that or
going through it now, or they're like
feeling like they're getting close.
Like, don't know what advice do you have
Cameron Moll: Mm.
Brad Frost: for for those people?
Cameron Moll: Oh, you know,
Brad, this is really starting
to come back to why I think.
Yeah.
Okay.
Uh, a manager who's seen different
situations in life can really be of
value, especially to those younger
employees for a couple of reasons.
One, good managers that are
experienced in, in understanding
burnout, depression and so forth.
They can anticipate before you do.
That you're starting to approach
that kind of burned out stage.
I can't tell you the number of times I've
told my team members to take time off.
I'm like, I can sense that you
probably are not seeing it, but I
can tell you need some time off.
So let's have a conversation about that.
And a good manager can find tactful
ways to, to approach that conversation.
A good manager can also find
ways that yes, you, you.
Absolutely should reward employees for
the performance that they put in, and
especially the output of that performance.
But you also should be capable of
maybe identifying what a reasonable
level of contribution to performance
is when you look at the variety of
life situations across your team.
So let me give you give
you an example of this.
I remember a time where, in
a performance review, A team
member, I don't think it was mine.
Um, this was part of a kind of a
collaborative review where a certain
team member had produced a phenomenal
level of output and they were being
kind of pitted against another
team member as you're looking at
like the promotions and so forth
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Cameron Moll: didn't have as much
output during that same timeframe.
But in this particular case, it
was almost like pitting a young
individual who was spending 12,
13, 14 hours a day on this effort.
And then you had them up against someone
who was spending, let's say eight
hours a day, and they had to then shut
off because they were a mother and
take care of other responsibilities.
And so there's no doubt that someone's
going to produce more output if
they're putting in 12, 13, 14 hour
days compared to the lead hour day.
Right.
And so.
I think an experienced manager can find
a way to both reward the performance from
that 12, 13, 14 hour individual, but also
make sure that it doesn't then create
an unnecessary exclusion for that other
individual to feel pressured that they
have to be working that much time to be
able to stack up against their peers.
Brad Frost: it's like my immediate
instinct is like, why is that
person working 12 or 13 or 14 hours
like that's that's not healthy.
Go get a hobby.
Cameron Moll: Right.
Brad Frost: in that and that's the
thing there's like there's like a
deprogramming when you're in the,
the young person season of life,
starry eyed, bright eyed bushy tail.
You know, go grab life by
the horns, go in and get it.
You're learning new skills.
You're achieving mastery.
there's a lot of just positioning of
like, that's where you are, whenever
you're getting started, you want to
prove yourself, all of that good stuff.
those aren't necessarily like bad things.
think what, what is
bad is exploiting that.
that and that that is something that I've
seen time and time and time and time and
time again, many industries like my wife.
She started out in the film industry,
which is just like notorious for for that.
force everyone to do it.
And they're all, you know,
young and hungry and are willing
to put up with a lot of crap.
In order to to get through to the other
side and then eventually you join the
union and it slows down like a little
bit Like not also not really So it's like
there's there's just like a a health and
a pace that it absolutely is leadership's
job to model that To prioritize that and
not just from like a level playing field
thing, which which also matters But just
again that that longer term Sustainability
Cameron Moll: Yeah.
The health of your team, this machine.
Brad Frost: But also writ large right
like like society like writ large.
It's like when you know, you've got your
five kids They're all doing activity.
There's a limit the amount of of those
activities That they could do and like
I don't know Do you can you like speak
to like how you because there's there's
literally a limit to time and space
Your five sons each wanted to sign up
for three different activities, And
you just do that math and you look at
how many hours there are in the day.
And what your resources are and all of
that stuff, like, can't happen, right?
Like, it's, it's, it's impossible.
I'm not quite there yet.
My daughter's almost seven
and I only have one kid.
So it's like, well, we'll be fine.
But I see a lot of people in my
life who are totally redlining.
it is the like life equivalent
of that work in 12, 13, 14
hours a day with no reprieve.
Cameron Moll: Oh gosh.
Brad, where could I go with this?
Maybe I, maybe people are expecting
to hear Cameron, the, the design
leader here, but maybe I need to speak
as Cameron, the father, you know?
Brad Frost: you, you gotta,
you gotta speak as a person.
Yeah.
Cameron Moll: magically life has
found a way over the years, you know,
with with the kids that we've had.
And, uh, again, having them early on
helped me, I think, understand that you
can still find a way to to prioritize
family amongst all of your demanding.
You know, roles.
I mean, there were times
with my fourth son.
I was my third or fourth son.
I don't remember.
I was literally on my laptop in
the hospital no less than maybe 12
hours after they'd been born, right?
Trying to catch up on
things and crank out things.
And unfortunately, that's the
way that life is sometimes.
And I don't recommend that, of
course, but that's the reality
of what happens sometimes.
I get that.
I understand it.
over the years that we've had kids,
it's always been a question of, of like,
how are we going to afford another kid?
How are we going to have
time for another kid?
Are we going to have to buy a bigger
car for all these as more kids come?
And yet, And magically it works out.
I think when we care deeply about
things in our life, be it work or
family or anything else, you know,
we make time for those things and,
and, and we suddenly start with
maybe consciously and unconsciously
deprioritize other stuff that thought,
you know, we thought it mattered, but
it just doesn't matter as much now,
I think the one thing I've, I've.
Done right throughout my career as it
pertains to like creating this balance
and making sure I do have time for
my family is, you know, I put in a
good solid work day, but that's it.
I mean, we're not, I might try
to treat you with kindness and
even love, but we're not family.
So I'm going to spend eight hours with
you and that's what you get from me.
And then I go home to my other things.
I'm not going to go hang out with you
after work and do those sorts of things.
That's just kind of who I am.
But that, that forcing function of
having kids has, has created that
cutoff to be able to then go spend time.
But like to your point earlier, I'm,
I'm, you could say I'm putting in 16,
18 hour days when you calculate having
work and then having kids on top of it.
Right.
I mean, it's a lot of stuff
that we all have to do, but you
just, it magically works out.
And, uh, we were chatting before we
started recording that, you know,
there was a time where four of
our sons were playing competitive
soccer and we had on a Saturday,
they were on three different teams.
We had to find ways to get to
their tournaments sometimes
in three different cities.
And it was just absolute madness.
And yet I look back at that
period was such great fondness.
And I'm so happy we did that.
We focused on what
really mattered to them.
The most of the time, but as crazy
as it would, we had, we had a ton
of fun doing it, you know, it was
a wonderful period of our life.
So I don't know, I feel like
I'm just rambling, maybe not
providing anything of value to what
Brad Frost: no.
Cameron Moll: to here, but
Brad Frost: so much there.
Like, one, the attitude matters.
And this is the thing kind of like
to counter how you're saying it.
And I'm sure experientially
when you're in the moment.
You are stressed you're racing to
the next thing or you're you're
like crap Am I gonna get there
before the end of the second half or
where like whatever that might be?
I'm, no doubt there's stress involved
in the moment what i'm hearing from
you is that it's like that real deep
understanding of Family is a priority.
Family is everything, which is a
value that I share very strongly
You're able to show up to it and
understand the importance of it and
understand the value of it, even if
it is like stressful or you're, you
know, you're running around, but
Cameron Moll: Um,
Brad Frost: you have that
sense of, of gratitude and
understanding a lot different.
And I'm not suggesting that the
other people I see in my life.
Who are redlining and they just they
seem They seem miserable, frankly,
They're being pulled away from
being able to appreciate the moment
Cameron Moll: Yeah.
Brad Frost: and and I really want that In
life in work and everything to be able to
like have that presence and that gratitude
and that appreciation That intentionality
is like what I want for, for everyone
to experience, and it's there.
you need to do is, is shift the, the
focus or shift your perspective on it.
Cameron Moll: I love that you're
bringing this up because related
to what we talked about earlier,
authenticity and how important that is.
is to me.
I think it's important to let people
know here that I don't have it all
figured out and that we still have
challenges as a family, I think where
we do feel burned out and that we're
running from one thing to the next.
I do think it is a, a casualty that
life just seems to get more busy.
And I think there is some degree of,
of technology that has amplified that
you know, anyone can contact me at
any time now because of this magical
rectangle that I carry around in my
pocket didn't used to be the case.
Certainly wasn't the case when we,
when we first had children and now
it creates different dynamics that
can make life feel very stressful.
And so while I strive for
that balance between work and
family and everything else.
The reality is, is that man, life can
be so demanding sometimes and trying
to put all the pieces together is hard.
And so I think when I speak to
like, you know, the balance for me,
that's longer term or like in the
short term, there are weeks where
I just, I'm like everyone else.
And I'm just like, I don't know
how I stay on top of everything
and it feels very stressful, but.
Longer term, I know what
I'm, I'm striving towards.
I know that there are going to be some
bad weeks and all of that, some bad days.
But if I kind of keep my eyes on the
prize, so to speak, of where I'm trying
to go with my career and with my children
and my relationship with my wife, then
I trust that I'm going to get there.
And I'm far enough into my life now
that I've seen that that model works.
Brad Frost: that's beautiful.
What I'm hearing you say is taking
the time to dig deep, play that game
of, of like, What am I doing here?
Where am I going?
What's my value system?
really taking the time to do that.
Can help in those moments.
Yeah, we're all humans and we all
experience stress We all just whatever
things stack on top of each other
and sometimes the cards just fall
in a really awkward way you gotta
figure out how to make it all work
and it's gross like you're saying
you could always fall back on or you
know that that this is a node in time
was like you created a phone contract,
Cameron Moll: Right Okay.
Brad Frost: like you said,
this magical rectangle, that's
also a total Pandora's box,
just like chucking that at a young mind
and saying, all right, knock yourself out.
for as long as I've known you, I
just like feed that like a real.
Foundation level stuff really
kind of shine through and
I, I love that about you.
Cameron Moll: that.
You know, it's, it's been so rewarding
to have four of our five sons now be
adults and to see who they've become.
And it really puts into perspective that.
You know, if this week is terrible,
you know, and maybe, maybe your
son slammed the door in your face
because they were super upset with
you over the long term, they turn
out to be quite good individuals.
And it's been so rewarding to see that,
that despite my mistakes as a father,
despite maybe not giving them enough
time, because there were weeks where
I was working 12, 14 hours, whatever.
They still turned out to
be phenomenal individuals.
And I think the same applies to, to the
teams that we work with and the teams that
we lead as managers, that sometimes we
get caught up in the quarter to quarter
and what's what we're really doing.
And we may not recognize that we're
impacting a human being and many
years from now, that human being is
going to be appreciative of what you
did, or they might regret and be,
you know, scornful of what you did.
And so we have that.
Incredible privilege and opportunity
to just try our best, and we're gonna
get some things wrong, but to try
our best to help these human beings
produce great work while recognizing
that they're also human beings.
Brad Frost: And I think that that's,
that's really well said and, and
just like showing up and recognizing
the humanity of everyone we, that we
encounter in life is, is seems to just
go a really long way and just yield
healthier outcomes than alternative.
Cameron Moll: It's worth, pointing
out for those that are younger,
listening to this, that there is
value and sometimes necessity in.
putting in longer hours early in your
career to be able to try to get ahead.
You know, I remember that, uh, Uh,
even though we had kids, there were
still days that I'd work a long
day or I'd come home and do some
freelance work and bless her heart.
My sweet wife, Suzanne would
be the one putting the kids
down or changing their diapers.
And some days I feel horrible about
that, but we, we had an agreement that,
you know, my role was to provide for
the family and her role was to be a
full time mother for the most part.
And so we did our best and I hope
nobody listening to this thinks
Cameron never changed the diaper.
I, I, I certainly did as
much as I possibly could.
Back then.
But the point being is even then,
even though I had kids, I was
still working long days to try
to get, get ahead of my career.
And it did pay off in,
in a lot of respects.
And so I hope if you are younger in
your career, that you're not hearing
Cameron say, don't work long days.
There may be times that you need to
do that, especially early in your
career where you need to get ahead.
And that's, that's okay.
You just figure out what works for you.
But I think what you and I.
Brad are talking about here is just
making sure that you understand there's
a longer term in this and what is that
longer term going to look like for you?
And what are you working towards in
the longer term to make that happen?
Brad Frost: That's really well said.
one of the other, talk to you on this
show is our friend, Aaron Walter.
He was the, the first person
I think that I ever heard use
the phrase seasons of life.
And man, I've internalized that just
like through and through where it's
just like, Oh, there is a season
of life where you're just getting
started trying to earn your keep.
We've already, you know,
we've already talked about it.
It's like your, your position,
you're hungry or you, you don't
have the skills, but you're eager
to learn them doing all that stuff.
But there's also a season in your
case that happened concurrently
like, Oh, I have a family to support.
And that like changes how you operate.
Right.
And there's these, these
different seasons of life.
You're experiencing it now.
Your kids are one by one, exiting the
nest and and out into the world, right?
Like, so, those moments in time change
who we are, what our priorities are,
how we show up, you know, how we spend
our time and and what we need to value.
And for me that's really helped frame a
lot of this stuff because I wasn't wrong.
Also, as as a young 20 something
working 12 hour days, like, I don't
I don't look back on that as like,
Oh, that was just a huge mistake.
I think it's a natural season of life
for a lot of like younger people.
the bigger thing that the message I hope
They take away is what you were saying
which is like, that intentionality
of it, and also kind of coming
back to this idea of exploitation.
spend the time, even if you are that
young person who's like, burning
the midnight oil on behalf of some
company, that's your first job or your
second job or whatever it might be.
That's okay.
But just be aware, just be aware
an understanding what you're doing
and and you can be intentional.
Yes, you're grinding on this.
You're doing this work.
You're doing this work on behalf
of this other company could drop
you like a bad habit if things
go, and and all of that stuff.
Cameron Moll: Yeah, you
said that beautifully.
I mean, there is, there is some element
of defensibility here that we have.
If, if, you know, a company can take
as much as they might want from us.
If we're not careful, not all
companies do that, of course,
but there is that, that element.
And then I think there's an
element, you said it beautifully
as well, that, um, Yeah.
You know, sometimes I think as let's
take designers, we think that if
I just spend more time in Figma,
I'm going to be a better designer.
Well, the reality is actually if you spend
some time outside of work exercising.
and reading and, doing
hobbies, athletics, whatever.
Guess what?
All of those things are part of
that calculus to become a better
designer, a better working human.
and so if it's, if it's not family, you
know, there are other things that matter
in your life and, and you should not be
ashamed to make time for those things.
And you should prioritize those things
because you are going to be a better
Whatever your trade is by being more
balanced than you would be otherwise.
Brad Frost: I'm so glad you brought
that up because I would love for you to
speak to how you've accomplished that.
'cause you not only are in the digital
world, uh, obviously we spent a lot
of time, you, your dad, your digital
leader, all that good stuff, but you
also make a bunch of stuff and do a bunch
of other things and make physical art
and and products and things like that.
Can you talk about like those
those activities help shape.
everything how do you see different
dimensions to your design creative self?
does that shape your life?
Cameron Moll: Yeah.
I mean, I've been doing these letterpress
posters for a very long time, right?
Where I re imagined buildings and
bridges as if they were designed by
letters and numbers and so forth.
Most recently I put out
into the world these do its.
This is, uh, you know, the form
that I've used, the method I've
used for a very long time now.
And you've got some there and I've
got some on my desk too, it's great.
I don't know, you know, when I think
about why do I do those things?
I think at the end of the day, it
comes down to the fact that we're
makers and for a very long time,
as long as I can remember, I've
been making stuff with my hands.
And some people ask me, how
did you get into the industry?
And I'll tell them I didn't
take any design in high school
and college, you name it.
It was none of that.
I graduated with a degree
in business management.
But what I did do growing up is I
was constantly working on my go-kart.
I was woodworking.
I flew a lot of model airplanes growing
up, and so I was constantly building
those and repairing those and so forth.
And so using my hands to synthesize
ideas, playing drums like you, you know,
playing music for a very long time.
I think since fifth grade is when I
started synthesizing beautiful outcomes
with our hands has been important to me.
throughout my entire life and
continues to be important to me.
So I don't know if I could say I
do those posters and do it now and
these other physical goods, because
I believe they're going to lead to
me becoming a very financially adept
person through these activities.
It's like, I don't know.
I just love making stuff.
And for me, this is another way to
scratch that itch of making stuff.
And if other people can
appreciate it, man, that makes
it feel even more rewarding.
But even if they don't.
I don't care.
I've got stuff in my house that only we
as a family see, and I'm super proud of,
you know, and so if nobody appreciates
my posters or do it, I'm okay with that.
I feel good that I've expressed that,
you know, this carnal desire to create
or whatever you want to call it.
Brad Frost: I love that.
And I think that's so important
for other people to hear.
I find this thing that tends to
happen is that people, myself
included, and I'm susceptible to it.
It's like, oh, well, I'd love to make
art, but I'm not an artist, or I'd
love to make music, but not a musician.
I told myself that for a long
time for for both art and music
because of a preconceived notion
of what an artist or musician does.
Cameron Moll: Um,
Brad Frost: a, I'm just an accountant.
I couldn't possibly, you
Cameron Moll: Okay.
Brad Frost: exposed
Cameron Moll: Um,
Brad Frost: Like where the hell do these
Cameron Moll: You
Brad Frost: in?
To to to the bigger like narrative, right?
and I struggled with that myself
yeah, what I'm hearing you say is it
almost sounds like you just let it go.
You just let it go and let
yourself enjoy act of making.
Cameron Moll: I guess so, but, uh, I
gotta tell you, I feel guilty when I
spend, if it's not work, it's not family.
You know, if it's not, uh, very active
in, in roles related to my religion that
keep me busy outside of work as well.
So if it's not like one of those
three things, I feel guilty.
I was like, should I be spending time
in this poster or should I be, you know,
sitting down to play drums or whatever?
Cause there's like other
things I need to be doing.
But I think it's the act of, of forcing
ourselves to make time for those things
that we might feel guilty about that
actually contribute to not only us
being a better designer, better father,
whatever, but just enjoying life more.
You know, I love the fact that
you're posting videos all the time
of you playing bass or playing drums.
And I'm like envious because
one, I would never be, I think,
courageous enough to do that myself.
Um, but two, I'm like, this is awesome.
I love that Brad.
The person I know to be this
remarkable creative individual,
you know, awesome and creative.
Yeah.
One of the, the best, if not arguably the
best design system expert in the world.
And yet he's playing drums, he's
playing bass, he's throwing this event.
That's all about music.
And, and, and I'm, I'm almost envious
that you're make among your busy schedule.
And somehow that, that is important enough
to you that, that, that is a priority.
Brad Frost: Yeah, well, thank
you for for saying that.
But like, I'll just say,
boy, I feel it as well.
What I've been trying to do has been
trying to sort of rupture Those things and
those activities and and even just like
I'm, just gonna sit here and noodle and
record it and like that that can actually
be the span of five minutes That I'm
doing that before my guilt bells start
going off and I get back to my stuff.
So yeah, I, I feel that
same pull into the thing.
Here's the things I should be doing,
but holy smokes, you're exactly right.
It's like, these are the things.
are joyous.
These are the things that are free.
They're not tethered to anything.
I'm not making money off of this.
I'm not trying to.
It's just this sheer
pure act of creativity.
To be able to remind ourselves of that
and to have something that is this kind
of pure exercise in just making something.
We need to all give ourselves more
permission to do kind of stuff,
there's a lot of forces.
In the world, that are keeping us away
from Things that are exciting and joyous
and whatever, and I see people absolutely
riddled with guilt and, magical rectangles
in her pocket, like you said earlier,
would like to remind us every day about
the state of the world all of this stuff,
and it's something that I've been like
sort of with myself, but I've also feel
like I've kind of broken through a little
bit to allow myself To have these moments
of joy and creativity and all of that
because like at the end of the day I could
show up I could care about all of these
things I could point money in my attention
and try to do what I can but ultimately
these things are beyond my control Right.
And and with work and life and family
and all my other obligations, like, yes,
that requires my my time and attention.
And I need to do a good job.
But also, this stuff is there.
And in those moments, I'd be curious
to get your take on this, like, you
allow yourself to just show up to,
yeah, a letterpress thing or sit down
behind a drum kit or just do tinker
in any capacity, guilt aside, it's
like, for me, those little moments help
buoy help sort of carry me through.
Some of the more challenging
aspects of life, right?
It's like, it's like
Cameron Moll: Yeah,
Brad Frost: to having to be assaulted
with the news or sort of personal
stuff or business stuff or whatever.
It's like, there's there's
hard stuff to deal with.
And just kind of even like
knowing that that's there.
it's a sanctuary.
Cameron Moll: think it's vital.
I mean, it's absolutely vital to,
to cope in some ways to, to maybe
help process what's happening in
the world and in some cases turn off
what's happening in the world, right?
Just step away, be in your zone and your
element and just get lost in playing
a musical instrument or designing
something that's totally off the
wall, you know, whatever it might be.
I think, you know, that now
that we're talking about this,
I think there's some degree of.
Like the letterpress posters.
That's like one of the very few things in
my life that I have complete control over.
You know, even my wonderful
marriage and family.
It's a partnership with my, my dear
sweet wife and work and, and you go down
the list and all of those things are.
co relationship activities.
But when it's, when it comes to those
posters, it's just me and illustrator.
That's it.
And I think there is some, some liberty,
some freedom in that where I can get lost
in a world that I completely control.
And so I think there is goodness for every
one of us, no matter our circumstances.
To have something that we
feel complete control over.
There is something liberating about that.
And there's something, I think you call
it escape, call it whatever you want.
There is some really good goodness in
just saying, this is my thing and I
don't care what anyone else thinks.
Brad Frost: Yeah, oh that's beautiful.
I think that that's so well said.
It's like, It's self expression, self
exploration, there's a lot wrapped
up in that thing, whether it's,
yeah, you, you're cooking, or you're,
whatever that thing is, and I love
how you, you brought it up, like,
like, being in the zone, like, that's
just such a, like a strong signal.
That's that's just like such like a
core part of who you are So it's like
seeking that out finding that when
you have it able to experience that
is so healthy on so many levels But
I love how you're saying that that
is just like so many of our other I
mean the rest of our conversation has
been how do we interact with others?
How do we how do we balance?
How do we do all of this?
Yeah to just have something that's
just Yours you don't need to
bother anybody in order to do it.
I feel like doing this.
I'm going to do it.
I did it.
Holy smokes.
What an empowering thing
Cameron Moll: Yeah.
And for those that suffer from
depression and anxiety, this is
a very important outlet where
you can feel in complete control.
You can be free of criticism
from others and just live in that
space for whatever period of time
that you choose to live in it.
Brad Frost: That's amazing.
Yeah, it's such such great That's
I'm really glad we went there.
This is great.
This is great.
This is exactly the conversation
I was wanting to have with you.
So so thank you
Cameron Moll: Man, this
has been great, Brad.
It's so good to, to have you drill
me with these questions that have
caused me to kind of contemplate,
you know, why I am who I am.
But, uh, the fact that we've connected
over some things that I hope will
resonate with people that have
been listening to this, that have,
are either at this same stage, And
maybe had some questions coming in.
Maybe they didn't know they
had the questions coming into
this that they that they had.
But especially for those that
might be earlier in the process of
everything that we've talked about
and giving them a glimpse into maybe
what they can be looking ahead to.
So I'm so glad that we've touched
on what we've touched on is not the
conversation I would have expected, but
it's been absolutely the conversation
that we not only should have had,
but I've really enjoyed having it.
Brad Frost: Uh, same, thank you.
a couple things before we wrap up here.
the first is Perhaps there's
no surprise, but music is a
big part of both of our lives.
So what music should
more people know about?
Who have you been digging?
Who have you been excited about?
Cameron Moll: This is a funny question to
answer because I'm like, I'm going to be
embarrassed to answering this question.
Right.
If I say like Taylor, Taylor Swift or
something like that, I don't listen to
Taylor Swift, but it's basically along
those lines, I'm a very eclectic listener.
And so I think things like Apple
music and Spotify have been just an
absolute blessing for all of us that
want to discover, you know, very
bizarre, but also popular music.
You look at the spectrum of
orchestral music to choral
music to country to you name it.
There's, there's most genres
that I probably listen to.
So here's the kind of embarrassing part.
I've been listening to a lot
of Zach Brown band lately.
Brad Frost: Oh, yeah.
Cameron Moll: I love their stuff.
And there's something that just, when I
listen to their music, I just feel joyful.
And, and so any activity, whether I'm
designing or I'm out in the hot tub
or you name it, I just, I'll sometimes
put that on and I just feel happy.
Brad Frost: That's great.
That's amazing.
That's nothing to be embarrassed.
Here's this music that makes me feel
joyful, and you might feel that too.
So, that's,
Cameron Moll: would never
Brad Frost: it.
Cameron Moll: thought I'd be answering
that, giving that as an answer on a
recording like this, but there it goes.
So maybe someone else will find
comfort in the fact that Cameron
listens to Zach Brown band and
that's, that's completely okay.
Brad Frost: Well, that
also comes with age.
It's like we just get to be like, ah.
You know, stop trying to be like cool.
And it's like, oh, I've discovered this
new, you know, underground, Polish death
core band or something like that, that
only three other people have heard, it's
like, there's a reason why popular music
is popular music hits us in a certain way,
and it's like, once we allow ourselves
to be open to the possibilities of,
well, a lot of this music that Tends
to have a lot of it's it's usually it's
always it's always the stuff around it
or the perception of it or the culture
around it, gets in the way of like,
if you were to just sit and listen,
you'd be like, Oh, man, this is great.
Like, this is great.
If you just like, allow
yourselves like strip away.
Strip away whatever you've read,
whatever you've heard other people
say, like if you just like show up and
like listen to some music, no matter
if it is that choral music, orchestral
music, country music, whatever.
It's, it's so cool.
It took me a long time to get there,
but that's a skill worth developing.
Because there's a lot of
great music out there.
Is there a specific, uh, Zac
Brown, uh, band, album, or
song that, is, is a favorite?
Cameron Moll: So I'm a sucker for
Spotify's, this is blank playlists, right?
So they'll put compilations.
So that's usually my go to.
They've got a lot of
great tracks in there.
I think they're great.
And I just put that on and I've listened
to that probably way too many times.
I'm surprised in my rap that that
didn't come up as my number one artist.
I think it might have,
I know that I say that.
Cause I did listen to it a lot last
year and I still listen to it a lot now.
Brad Frost: Beautiful, beautiful.
Well, that's great.
Well, I would, I'm probably going to end
up like compiling, you know, a little
like playlist of the people stuff.
So So thank you for being here.
Last question is like,
where can people find you?
Where can people find your, your
stuff, your work, your writing, your,
your whatever you want to promote?
Cameron Moll: Yeah.
So at Cameron mall and most
social media channels, shop.
cameronmall.
com for the posters and, and do it.
Uh, those are the, the, the best places
to find me, my website, cameronmall.
com of course.
So I hope to connect with some of
you if we're not connected already.
Brad Frost: Heck yeah.
Well, thank you so much for being here.
This is an absolute pleasure and,
thank you all for, for listening.