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A podcast at the intersection of psychology and culture that intimately explores the human experience and critiques the counseling profession. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills wisdom gained from her practice as a family therapist and coach while pivoting towards questions of how to apply a practical understanding of psychology to the novel dilemmas of the 21st century, from political polarization to medical malpractice.
What does ethical mental health care look like in a normless age, as our moral compasses spin in search of true north? How can therapists treat patients under pressure to affirm everything from the notion of "gender identity" to assisted suicide?
Primarily a long-form interview podcast, Stephanie invites unorthodox, free-thinking guests from many walks of life, including counselors, social workers, medical professionals, writers, researchers, and people with unique lived experience, such as detransitioners.
Curious about many things, Stephanie’s interdisciplinary psychological lens investigates challenging social issues and inspires transformation in the self, relationships, and society. She is known for bringing calm warmth to painful subjects, and astute perceptiveness to ethically complex issues. Pick up a torch to illuminate the dark night and join us on this journey through the inner wilderness.
You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist ranks in the top 1% globally according to ListenNotes. New episodes are released every Monday. Three and a half years after the show's inception in May of 2022, Stephanie became a Christian, representing the crystallization of moral, spiritual, and existential views she had been openly grappling with along with her audience and guests. Newer episodes (#188 forward) may sometimes reflect a Christian understanding, interwoven with and applied to the same issues the podcast has always addressed. The podcast remains diverse and continues to feature guests from all viewpoints.
[00:00:00] Lynn: Young, healthy people are getting hurt, and that's not really a political issue. That's a humanity issue, and it's really time to lay the politics aside and care about the people. And we don't wanna see a world where, uh, bad [00:00:15] medicine is on a menu offering for anyone who decides that they want it. That's not a proper way to practice medicine.
As a retired nurse, I believe deeply in evidence-based medicine, which is constantly changing.
[00:00:28] Announcer: You must be some [00:00:30] kind of therapist
[00:00:34] Stephanie: Today I have the pleasure of welcoming back to the podcast Lynn Chadwick. She is a retired NICU nurse who first became a parent advocate after two of her children [00:00:45] medically transitioned. Lynn founded Themis Resource Fund to provide detransitioned individuals with litigation assistance. She previously appeared on this podcast on episode number 182.
Today I'm welcoming her back to discuss [00:01:00] detransition lawsuits. Lynn, so good to see you again. Welcome back.
[00:01:04] Lynn: Oh, thanks so much for having me, Stephanie.
[00:01:07] Stephanie: I really appreciate your advocacy, the work that you're doing, and also just the, the peace that you found as a [00:01:15] parent in this. You know, a lot of listeners are in that boat, and I think you set such a good example of finding peace and joy in your life even when you wouldn't have chosen the particular outcomes, [00:01:30] uh, for your kids that they've chosen.
[00:01:32] Lynn: Hmm. Thank you, Stephanie.
[00:01:33] Stephanie: So today we're going to talk about what you're doing with Themis Le- Legal Fund, Resource Fund for Detransitioners, the status of detransition lawsuits. To sort of cue us up, a little [00:01:45] context and background here is we have, we have had the first detransition lawsuit victory, and that was a few months ago.
It was covered in episode 200 of this podcast when I spoke with Benjamin Ryan, who had reported on the [00:02:00] whole Varian versus Einhorn case. And as I've said before and I'll say again here now, what was really striking to me is that, you know, not only have we had the first detransition lawsuit victory, but that the therapist was found 70% culpable in that case.
So hugely [00:02:15] relevant for my field, for all the therapists in the audience, and, uh, so there's a lot to discuss there. We also have a little bit of background with, um, you know, other previous guests of this podcast, Glenna Goldis, Dr. Travis Morral, Dr. Ethan Haim. [00:02:30] These are all people I've spoken with who have done incredible work laying the groundwork for what's now happening with the Department of Justice investigation into the widespread medical fraud going on, the, the insurance billing fraud, the fraudulent [00:02:45] codes that are being used for these pseudoscientific so-called treatments.
So I'm really curious from your perspective working on that legal advocacy front how you think all of that context that is happening right now shifts the [00:03:00] landscape of detransition lawsuits.
[00:03:02] Lynn: Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I think that we are at Really interesting crossroads now, as someone who's been really actively involved in this issue since [00:03:15] about 2019.
And if you look back, um, like pre-pandemic and the early pandemic years, it was impossible to even bring up the topic of detransitioners or the harms of [00:03:30] medical transition and get a hearing anywhere beyond the small areas where people actually agree with you. And I think now we've gotten a little bit outside of that, and it's starting to be okay to talk [00:03:45] about the fact that young people, young healthy people are getting hurt, and that's not really a political issue.
That's a humanity issue. And it's really time to lay the politics aside and care about the people and, [00:04:00] and where we're going in healthcare right now. And I don't wanna see a world where, uh, bad medicine is on a menu offering for anyone who decides that they want it. That's not a proper way [00:04:15] to practice medicine.
As a retired nurse, I believe deeply in evidence-based medicine, which is constantly changing. And the more we learn, the more we modify the services and the therapies that we [00:04:30] offer to patients, because we want to be healers and not people who cause long-term health damage to people.
[00:04:38] Stephanie: You mentioned 2019.
That's seven years ago now, how difficult it felt to talk about this. [00:04:45] 2019, 2020, 2021 is when I was doing my deep dive. I came on the scene in 2021 and got a lot of negative attention right away. Uh, you feel like we're in a different place today?
[00:04:56] Lynn: Well, not entirely. But it's [00:05:00] definitely There are a lot more open doors, and people on the street, if you just talk to regular people, they're like, "Yeah, I don't..."
Everybody's starting to question what's going on, but mostly for children. We need to protect [00:05:15] vulnerable children. We need to stop gender-affirming care for minors. And then there's this whole attitude of, well, when you're 18, you can just do whatever you want, uh, which is also a cop-out in my view. I don't think that adults deserve [00:05:30] ineffectual, unproven, non-evidence-based junk medicine any more than kids do, and, and there's no one to protect them.
[00:05:38] Stephanie: I'm with you on that. And since you brought that up, I'd love to help listeners think this through, because I meet a [00:05:45] lot of really good, caring, thoughtful people who have sort of arrived at that conclusion tentatively. And I see that they're struggling because you, you can tell they have a good moral instinct.
Some part of them is [00:06:00] like, "This doesn't feel right, but I also feel wrong about being too restrictive," right? It's that libertarian instinct of like, who am I to say that someone shouldn't be able to do what they want with their own body? And so [00:06:15] I think people get stuck there, and I'd actually love to help people think this through a little bit more.
If you listening find yourself in that boat, if you're like, "Something about this whole thing feels wrong, but I don't know how, [00:06:30] I don't know how it's appropriate to draw those hard lines." And, and Lyn, I think you're bringing in one of the most important pieces of the rebuttal to that, which is-
[00:06:39] Lynn: Hmm ...
[00:06:40] Stephanie: that, uh, these are being advertised as medical treatments and [00:06:45] provided by medical providers.
That's one difference between someone doing what they want with their own body versus getting a medical professional to do something to their body, right? So that's one [00:07:00] distinction. Mm-hmm.
[00:07:02] Lynn: Yes. Yeah. Well, say that I had, um, high blood pressure and I had an actual problem, and I went to the doctor and they gave me gummy bears and said, "Here, this will treat your, [00:07:15] this will treat your blood pressure."
Gender-- Th- these, these procedures don't treat anything.
[00:07:21] Stephanie: Well,
[00:07:22] Lynn: you know- And, and it-- Yes. They don't treat anything. A-a-and we just need to have the courage, the courage of our convictions to [00:07:30] say, "It doesn't treat anything." As a matter of fact, you take a perfectly healthy body and you put it into a disease state.
That is not, that's not a treatment. And, and I love that in our culture now, we value [00:07:45] autonomy, and I value autonomy. I value freedom of speech, freedom-- Everybody should be able to live their life however they want. And, and I'm a lesbian, and I'm really grateful that I can live my life with my wife and, [00:08:00] and it's nobody's business, right?
Um, we all should be able to live our lives however we please. We don't have to-- We're n- we're not living in a theocracy. We are all-- We are not all required to subscribe to the same thoughts, and that's fine. [00:08:15] However, physicians are required to offer medicine that treats something, that is evidence-based, that is effective, and that is safe.
That is incumbent upon the practitioner, the medical practitioner, [00:08:30] and the medical sys- culture. It's not up to the individual person to decide what sort of medicine they want to take. That is-- That's not wh- Medicine is not a drive-through restaurant. You don't order off the rest- off the [00:08:45] menu.
[00:08:45] Stephanie: Yeah, I think that's a really good point, and I laughed at your gummy bears analogy, and my mind started playing with it, and I started thinking, "How could we make this analogy even fit even better?"
And it's almost like if you were [00:09:00] really very fond of gu-gummy bears, like if, if gummy bears were like your childhood favorite thing, and you found that eating your favorite treat momentarily lowered your blood pressure because it helped you feel happy and calm- But [00:09:15] also, you had diabetes, right? And, and the diabetes blood pressure connection wasn't looking good, right?
Uh, like it's almost like that, right? You're, you're like, "Well, of course the blood-- the gummy bears treat my blood pressure because they make me [00:09:30] happy," right? They make me happy, so they make me calmer in the moment, so my blood pressure calms down a little bit. They make my diabetes worse, and diabetes screws up everything, including blood pressure.
But we're not gonna think about that. We're just gonna think about, you know, if it makes [00:09:45] you happy in the moment, do it. Like it's a little bit like that, but then of course it's even worse because like you're saying, it's not, not only that they don't treat the conditions, but they harm the body a- along anything that's actually objectively measurable.
[00:09:58] Lynn: Right. Right. And that's if [00:10:00] you look at the actual evidence, most of the follow-up on the studies that people have done where they, you know, they say, "Okay, we're gonna follow these people up," they follow them for one year. And all they say is, "Are you happy? [00:10:15] Are you happy with your treatment? Are you living your best life?"
And the client says, "Yeah, I'm really happy." Okay, check. Effective. However, there have been data studies where people have gone back and data mined and done analysis, and they look at large [00:10:30] groups of patients that have been treated with gender-affirming care, and they, and they look at, okay, well, how many mental health visits has this person had?
How many psychotropic drugs are they on? Are they living, are, are they in fact [00:10:45] living a happy life? And the data absolutely says the opposite. These people, by and large, have continued to struggle deeply. And, you know, Lisa Littman did a study of 100 [00:11:00] detransitioners, uh, a few years back, and I think it was, like, 75% or even more said, "Nobody treated my actual problems.
And when I realized that I really wasn't doing well, I realized none of this helped me, [00:11:15] and I, I wasn't offered true care in any way, either by a therapist or a doctor." So we need to go with the facts and not with, you know, some little fairy feeling in our, in our gut that says, [00:11:30] "This is just, this is all about freedom and people are happy," 'cause the, the data says the opposite.
[00:11:35] Stephanie: Yeah. And for those who are temporarily in that place of, "Oh, I think adults should be able to do what they want. Let's protect the kids," [00:11:45] you've made a solid case, and I think we can also add to that questions worth discussing of what makes any given age magical, what happens at that age. And then what I would pose from more of the psychological [00:12:00] lens is if we say everything short of medical transition is still okay, if we still think, "Well, social transition, that's fine," right?
If we end, we live in a society that encourages it, rewards it, there's all this secondary gain associated with the identity, [00:12:15] then, you know, you're looking at potentially a young person spending very impactful developmental years that, during that highly neuroplastic window, reinforcing the belief system that this is what I need in order to be [00:12:30] okay, in order to be myself, in order to be happy, and in order to move forward in life.
Um, for those who are interested in exploring this topic further, I do wanna flag an article that I will try to remember to put in the show notes. It's in ROGD Repair as a bonus lesson, and [00:12:45] it's also on my Substack. So it's called "The Belief That Builds Its Own Cage: The Causal Chain of Consequence in Trans Ideation."
It basically just traces the logic from if we believe that there is this thing called trans and that [00:13:00] some people are it- Then there's almost a spiritual obligation that young people feel to look within and discover if this is them. But because there's no objective markers, there's no brain scan, there's no blood test, it's entirely a subjective meaning-making process that takes [00:13:15] place within a culture with particular narratives and things it rewards, right?
So in increasing the likelihood the young person will arrive at this explanation, right, which then puts them on this trajectory, one thing leads to another. I break it all down in this article, and before you know it, the young person has this [00:13:30] belief that has created a cage around them, which is, "I cannot be happy.
I cannot be okay. I cannot be myself. I cannot move forward in life unless I'm seen as the opposite sex." Well, now medicalization is inevitable because you don't look like the opposite sex, you don't sound like the opposite sex, right? So, [00:13:45] uh, if anyone wants like a clear explanation of how one thing leads to another down that chain, you can find that in ROG Repair, you can find that in that Substack article, and that's exactly why, you know, we sit here and have this c- these types of conversations with, with someone like [00:14:00] Lynn.
[00:14:00] Lynn: Yeah. I mean, I'm gonna put forth What I feel like is a really radical proposition. What if we laid the, what I view, they're pretty [00:14:15] oppressive, restrictive gender stereotypes that we hold onto in our culture that we're claiming we don't care about anymore, and yet the instant someone prefers pink, they're female, and the instant you wanna wear boxer shorts instead [00:14:30] of, instead of bikini undies, you're, you're male.
So is there, i- is there room in our society to let go of those very sufficient- very superficial stereotypes, [00:14:45] allow people self-expression based in reality? You can wear boxer shorts and you can still richly enjoy being female. You can have long pink hair and you can still richly enjoy being [00:15:00] male. It's okay to express yourself.
It's just that you need to stay within the boundaries of, of actual reality. It-- That doesn't make you the other sex. It doesn't give you the rights to the spaces of the [00:15:15] other sex. It doesn't mean that you need to do anything with your body. It just means this is, this is how you show up in the world, and you're still male, you're still female.
I think that would be radical. I think that that could create joy. That pops the
[00:15:28] Stephanie: grandiosity
[00:15:29] Lynn: [00:15:30] bubble. It-- Well, you know, you don't have to be grandiose about it, but it's okay to be comfortable in your skin, and I, I think we make so many quick judgments about who people are and what they're identifying a- and all of this has just created a lot of confusion [00:15:45] around that.
So in, in, in the lesbian culture, you know, any- anymore, if you see a lesbian that is y- dressed in male clothes, which is, that's perfectly, in my view, that's perfectly legitimate. You're still, you're still a [00:16:00] woman, right? But, but everybody around this woman starts saying, "Oh, are you-- What are your pronouns?"
Automatically, immediately, they call, they call this woman he. "What's your, what's your chosen name?" It just, it's just something that's almost expected [00:16:15] And so it's not okay to not subscribe to gender norms without labeling yourself and gaining some pronouns. So-
[00:16:23] Stephanie: It's so sad. And, and it is different for the boys and the girls, right?
Like- Yes ... girls, you know, especially same-sex attracted, but you don't even have [00:16:30] to be same-sex attracted to prefer a more casual androgynous or practical style of dress, right? And that is the difference, right? There, there are people who wanna be total gender abolitionists, but th- there is a difference between a girl wearing clothes that appear more [00:16:45] masculine, which again could have to do with comfort or practicality.
When we are looking at a man that wants to wear women's clothes, which are typically not comfortable and not practical, we are- Right ... usually looking at evidence of a sexual fetish that he wants to demonstrate in public. Right. And that is a different- [00:17:00] This-- Yeah ... topic.
[00:17:01] Lynn: It, it has a whole ick factor to it, but how much of that is because we have, um, legitimized the whole idea that trans, trans women are women, and that they belong in, in [00:17:15] women's prisons, and women's rape shelters, and women's sports, and women's spaces, and it is threatening, and it's bullying, and it's wrong.
And so now there's a huge amount of fear around that. So I, I feel like this [00:17:30] whole legitimization of being trans has contributed to people being actually more boxed in and less free than we would be otherwise.
[00:17:40] Stephanie: It's so much pressure on young people to define themselves, and I see so many just opting [00:17:45] out.
Like, it's really sad when you actually hear what some of these kids are saying because sometimes you realize that claiming a label like non-binary or gender queer or gender fluid, claiming one of these labels in some social [00:18:00] environments really feels like the only way to get the pressure off of their shoulders.
[00:18:05] Lynn: It's a tough world right now for young people. It really is. Yeah.
[00:18:09] Stephanie: But let's talk about your work. So, um, tell us about [00:18:15] the landscape of detransitioner lawsuits, what Themis is doing, wherever you wanna start.
[00:18:20] Lynn: I'll just quickly run through what brought me to starting Themis. I have two adult children who identify as trans and are [00:18:30] medicalized and are currently, um, not part of my everyday life, sadly.
And, uh, that brought me through a long process of healing and just accepting rea- you know, radical acceptance. And, [00:18:45] um, and I wish absolutely-- I hope they're doing well, and I wish the best for them. I love them forever. Um, but, you know, you, you can't ever, once you've been, uh, personally affected by this issue, I don't think you can ever completely look away.[00:19:00]
from what it's doing to both to young people and to their families. And I see the families cracking wide open every day because I started a parent group in 2019 called Oasis, and, [00:19:15] um, it's currently-- there's currently about 500 parents in there. And I talk to parents every day. Their whole family is falling apart, and they're, they're really struggling.
And so as much as I, I wanna just move on with [00:19:30] my life and travel and be retired and be happy, um, there's still a part of me that, like I say, can never look away from this. And I, I wanted to find something effective and calm and kind of professional that [00:19:45] I could do with this that makes a difference without going in the streets and yelling and screaming, 'cause I, I just don't wanna do that anymore.
And, um As I, as I've kind of been involved in this [00:20:00] since around 2019, there, there is no shortage anymore of articles and, and Senate bills and documentaries and systematic reviews, all kinds of [00:20:15] information out there that documents the fact that we are currently experiencing a medical scandal of absolutely phenomenal proportions.
Many, many people are being intentionally harmed, [00:20:30] and, and it's, it, it's portrayed as a, as a political issue, like the only people that would have a problem with this are conservatives, and it, and it's a good liberal thing to do. And it, it's, it's not a political issue. [00:20:45] It, it-- this is a humanity issue at its deepest.
At its core, we are hurting people, and we're calling it medicine. Now, the people that wanna do this are, are-- they're not letting go easy. We've all seen [00:21:00] this. You know, we, we pass legislation, and then they go to court, and it's, it's all very-- it ends up all watered down by the time you get it. And, and then they, they keep doing it anyway, and there's, there's all these loopholes.
So somehow we-- I think we [00:21:15] have to cut down on both the desire of, of young people to receive these treatments and the desire of medical practitioners and therapists to promote them. I feel the best way to do that is through [00:21:30] lawsuits. Um, lawsuits are immune to your politics. Lawsuits don't care how old your client was when you hurt them.
Lawsuits, lawsuits are... I think they're great because they hold people accountable in a way [00:21:45] nothing else does. I particularly think that we need to prosecute people for fraud, for lying to people, out and out lying to people. Fraud is not covered by malpractice insurance [00:22:00] For, you don't get your own attorney.
Uh, you're gonna have to get your own attorney, and you're gonna have to pay for it, and you're gonna have to cover your own case. And, and that's great because these people should be accountable for the harm they've done. There are all these people out there who have done [00:22:15] untold numbers of surgeries and, and hormonal treatments on people and, and they are-- they've never been accountable for it.
And what I want, I want every single one of these people, the therapists and the [00:22:30] doctors, the surgeons, I want them to go home every night, and I want them to think about their client that they saw today and wonder if that one is the one that is going to sue them for $10 million. I want them to lose sleep at night.[00:22:45]
I want them to find another specialty, one that's safer. That's, that's, that's the goal. And also, I want these people that have been harmed to be able to have a day in court [00:23:00] and face their, the people who harmed them and, and have some recourse. They deserve it.
[00:23:06] Stephanie: It was very morally and intellectually challenging for me working as a therapist [00:23:15] before I peaked on this issue, witnessing young people at different stages.
I was not the one recommending or signing off on these so-called treatments. I just had my place in the system, [00:23:30] you know, and if they wanted someone to recommend that, I would refer them to a colleague who specialized in that, which is BS, by the way. Like there's, there's, there's nobody with... If, if you're a good therapist, [00:23:45] you're gonna be better at handling this issue than one of these gender specialists, okay?
But, like, I remember just, you know, when I was working with a young person who was actually somewhere in the middle stages of progressing down this line, 'cause I would meet them before and after. But [00:24:00] when I was working with someone who was actually progressing Just having that like, "Oh gosh, really?
They're, w- they're really... Oh, it feels so serious. How can they know [00:24:15] that, that... Is that really necessary that..." You know? And, and it really just, like, caused me to question. I'm like, I don't know, I g- I guess, like, I hadn't taken it seriously enough prior to witnessing someone really in the [00:24:30] midst of making those decisions.
And then I, that was when I felt like I really had to be very careful how I proceeded. And, and just, I can think of that with individuals, right? And to think about, like, people being true [00:24:45] believers at scale where they made their whole career about just rubber-stamping, like, every single person through this process, that I, I just, I don't know how it doesn't [00:25:00] weigh on your conscience, right?
It's like w- like, the, I think for the average therapist, I'm gonna speculate here. I'm gonna e- extrapolate from what my experience was as a therapist, put myself in other people's shoes. You get people at different points in the process, [00:25:15] and You see that post-operative person who's having all of these health challenges, and somewhere in the back of your mind is like, "Is this related," right?
Like, gosh, your health sure seems like a mystery. [00:25:30] And like, uh, y- you'll see that one fraction, right? Or you'll see the young person who thinks that their parents need to call them they/them, right? And, and you get these little glimpses, and you're trying to figure out what is your responsibility here. [00:25:45] But then when you actually see the patient that's starting testosterone, and every week their voice is lower, or the patient that starts talking about surgeries, like, I don't know how the [00:26:00] gravity doesn't start to really set in when those things happen.
And like, I feel so guilty for the role that I did play, and I know that the role I played is small relative to the role that a lot of other people are playing. And that's why, to a point you were [00:26:15] making before we started recording, so many therapists just steer clear of this issue altogether because it's, it's such a field of landmines.
[00:26:23] Lynn: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think cognitive dissonance is really hard to live with, right? And so [00:26:30] what the typical person will do is they will book up their reasons why what they did was good and what they're contin- why what they're continuing to do is the right thing. Because it takes-- and, and Stephanie, I think you just described this kind of [00:26:45] courage, which not-- most people don't have it, which is the courage to admit that, "Yeah, this is wrong and I need to change directions, and I, I am gonna have to live with the fact that I might have participated in this a little [00:27:00] bit."
Have you ever read the book Mistakes Were Made But Not By Me? It's fabulous.
[00:27:06] Stephanie: No.
[00:27:07] Lynn: It's a great book. Mistakes Were Made But Not By Me.
[00:27:10] Stephanie: And- Is
[00:27:10] Lynn: it by
[00:27:11] Stephanie: Erika Anderson?[00:27:15]
[00:27:16] Lynn: It, it should be on our shelf. Um, but you know, the, she opens the book up by describing the whole repressed memory syndrome m- movement, like in the '90s, and, and how all these people came to believe by [00:27:30] suggestion of their therapist that they were horribly spiritually and sexually abused by their own parents when those things never happened, and how when it all broke, the scandal broke open, but most of the therapists were insistent that they never did anything wrong.
[00:27:45] And, you know, so it's just an example of how hard it is to face the reality that we made a mistake. And, and I think that, I think that's where we are in this country. I think most people realize that we have-- this is wrong. [00:28:00] We've made a really grave error here. But we don't know how to res- reverse it without offending a, a lot of people and getting ourselves in trouble with everybody else.
So I think we're sort of frozen right now. We're in this really [00:28:15] swir- We're in a big swirl of cognitive dissonance in our society around this issue, and that's why it's such a hot button. I mean I- if, if I were the parent of a trans child and I had ta- done what all the doctors advised [00:28:30] me, because I love my child, and brought my child to the doctor and socially transitioned, and then, um, bring on the puberty blockers and the hormones and plan for surgery and, you know, we're just gonna live this whole life out.
And then I realized, oh, wait a [00:28:45] minute. There, uh, I'm not gonna be okay with someone pointing out to me that I, I'm poisoning my child. I'm, I'm not. If, if, if somebody told me I was poisoning my child, I'd be really offended. But you are poisoning your child. That's the sad thing. [00:29:00] And, and it, I don't think we know what to do with it.
[00:29:03] Stephanie: I think the level of remorse that you're talking about facing requires something so big, and, uh, this might not fit with [00:29:15] your worldview or values, but I'm thinking as big as Jesus or as big as a psychedelic experience. Those are, those are two very large, very different containers and, you know, of course I always offend [00:29:30] everyone on this podcast, right?
You're either offended that I said Jesus or you're offended that I said- Right ... psychedelics. That's why I have a pod- That's why I have a panel on psychedelics and Christianity. But my, my point is that people come to Jesus to repent, uh, when they [00:29:45] need something so much bigger than themselves to hold the weight of their shame, and people go through things like psychedelic therapy when, again, they need something so much bigger than them to hold the weight of what they're struggling to come to [00:30:00] terms with.
And if anyone knows of anything other than Jesus and psychedelic therapy that is also big enough, I mean, maybe it's the ocean, right? I know, like, the ocean has been very healing for you. You spent time with baby whales.
[00:30:13] Lynn: Go pet some whales. Um- It's all, [00:30:15] all good.
[00:30:17] Stephanie: Yeah. I, I just- Yeah ... I mean, we're talking about, like, the- we're talking about deep, deep, deep remorse, and I feel like, a- and, and incredible cognitive dissonance.
Like, things [00:30:30] that have the power to just destroy you, destroy your brain, like, destroy your heart. I mean, I, I feel like it's, it's time that we talk about these things, 'cause right now, I, I-- we don't need to get into the Lindsey Clancy trial. But i- it's, it's [00:30:45] everyone is paying so much attention to the Lindsey Clancy trial, and it is collectively breaking our brains because we're looking at something where, again, the horror is so tremendous, right?
The remorse. What have I
[00:30:59] Lynn: [00:31:00] done, right? Yeah. Waking up to that kind of remorse and regret. So I think that that perfectly dovetails into the experience of what we call, and this, I think this is a very inaccurate term, what we call [00:31:15] detransition is the entire experience of gradually waking up to the fact that you have made a really serious error, and that there really is [00:31:30] no going back, right?
And, and the, there, a lot of people have studied this now, and, and it's a, it's a very, it's a long process usually, and typically [00:31:45] a, a, a person will continue to believe for a time that if they, "If I just have one more surgery-" Or if I just, I just haven't done quite enough yet 'cause I'm really not passing and I haven't met my embodiment goals, and so [00:32:00] I n- I just need one more or maybe two more.
Or, I mean, we have, like, what's his name that just got half his ribs removed, okay? I mean, it's, it's insanity some of the things that people are reaching for to try to, try to [00:32:15] reach this embodiment goal that's im- and it's an impossible dream. It, it's something-- It's an illusory chase. You, you're never gonna get there.
And then just gradually realizing, "Oh my God, I'm... Okay, I'm g- my voice is wrecked. My [00:32:30] voice is trashed forever. My hair is gone. Um, my womb is gone. I'm never gonna have children. I, I, I have facial hair the rest of my life." Or, you know, maybe for a man, "My penis is gone." I mean, [00:32:45] these are, these are huge prices that these young people are paying for being part of this entire scheme.
No one should have to pay this price. For being wrong. For being wrong. And then, and then they wake up and they start to say [00:33:00] something, and the first thing everybody starts throwing them is, "Well, you signed the permit. It's your own fault. You're the one that did it." And that's why I think that saying, "Well, everybody has autonomy and they should make their own decisions," that, that's not correct, [00:33:15] okay?
You can't make people responsible for their own harm. When they were just doing what you told them would help, and you didn't help them, right? So part of the reason [00:33:30] that we're having, that there's haven't been a lot more detransition lawsuits is because this, the statute of limitations is very short, and the timetable to get to regret is very long.
And those [00:33:45] two things coincide into a world where nobody's being held accountable, because by the time you wake up, it's too late to do anything. And so I do personally believe that the, the number one thing that we could [00:34:00] do to stop this entire movement in this country, in the US, and I believe that if we stop it in the US, it's gonna make waves all over the world.
So we have to start here. The best thing we can possibly do is to widen [00:34:15] the statute of limitations in as many states as we possibly can get that done. And it does need to be state by state. It would be great if we could do a blanket federal bill, but I don't think that would hold up. I think that would just get tied up in, in [00:34:30] court because of states' rights issues and other things.
But I think wherever we can, we should be extending the statute of limitations. In talking to attorneys, um, we have found, most of them have told us that they turn away [00:34:45] about nine in 10 potential cases that come to them simply because of statute of limitation restrictions. Because in most states, your limit is two, three, or four years
[00:34:58] Stephanie: And the average amount- And that's for-
[00:34:59] Lynn: [00:35:00] Yeah
[00:35:00] Stephanie: that's the statute of limitations for medical malpractice lawsuits specifically? For
[00:35:04] Lynn: medical malpractice. And med mal is really where it's all gonna really have to go. I mean, there's lots of other things to sue for. You can sue for fraud, but those are getting thrown out. [00:35:15] And we keep trying, but-- And I-- that's why I think the FT- we can talk some more about the FTC, which is a great development.
But when you have such a short window for people to sue for med mal, you're, you're really not allowing people [00:35:30] to, to get the justice that they deserve, because the average time that it, it's seeming that it takes an average of eight to 10 years for some- after someone's had the procedures to get to the point where they [00:35:45] realize they're harmed and they want to do something about it.
And there's very few states right now where, where you can do that after that much time. And that's really unfair. So it, it-- I think that that is the most, [00:36:00] um, important thing that we can work on right now.
[00:36:03] Stephanie: You know, I can, without knowing much about the law at all, I can kind of imagine why these laws that were written before we arrived in this crazy [00:36:15] place with gender, like why they would have, you know, a two to four-year limit.
Because Most medical treatments are treating an actual medical condition, and if they made your condition worse, not [00:36:30] better, you would typically know that sooner rather than later. I can imagine how if more years have passed, how do you know that it was that one thing instead of everything else you've done since then?
Like, but this is a completely different framework because they're using [00:36:45] a so-called medical treatment that doesn't actually improve the health of the body to treat a mental condition, and the mental condition is associated with believing in the power of the intervention. There's, [00:37:00] so there's this- Correct
placebo, right? Yes. Like, there's so many layers to it that make this completely its own thing compared to almost any other kind of medical malpractice, and that's why these laws just don't cut it. Yeah. So is, what's happening to expand the statute of [00:37:15] limitations?
[00:37:15] Lynn: Not very much right now. There are, there's some things happening in Texas that are hopeful, but, you know, in, in a few states.
But I think that it's an effort that could use a lot more attention from anyone [00:37:30] who has the time and ability and passion. There's a lot of room for, um, for effort to widen the statute of limitations, and, uh, I don't think there, there's very many people working on it. So that's [00:37:45] a, that's an area where if someone wants to, um, get involved and, and they have the know-how to help write draft legislation, it's a, it's a really great way to accomplish something in this arena.
[00:37:59] Stephanie: Hmm. [00:38:00] So what, yeah, what kind of expertise does a person need to have in order to do that? 'Cause you're, you're making it sound like a, a highly motivated citizen could, could take this on- Actually- ... on the weekends ... a highly
[00:38:11] Lynn: motivated citizen probably could, you know?
[00:38:13] Stephanie: Okay. That's inspiring. [00:38:15] Yeah.
[00:38:15] Lynn: Yeah. You know, I mean, I've never done it, but I know people that have, and they, you know, they get, they bend the ear of, of some, of a legislator, and they're like, "Look, this is a problem.
Are you interested in helping draft something that's a solution?" [00:38:30] And, you know, we all know that the trans lobby went from state to state to state to state, and they passed identical legislation in, in y- everywhere they could get it passed, and they're almost identical. Um, like the [00:38:45] conversion therapy laws and, you know, the ones that required insurances to pay for this stuff.
And, you know, l- there's lots of laws that have been passed in multiple states that are almost identical. And I don't know why we can't beat them [00:39:00] at that and do the same, except that we don't have any funding. They have, they have a treasure, a war chest, a huge war chest of money, and, you know, we're, it's very much a David and Goliath thing.
However, what we do have is truth [00:39:15] We have truth, and we have a righteous cause, and, um, and we have people who care. So those are all things in our favor, and I believe that we, we can do that. And [00:39:30] so, um, I, I just, I just wanna encourage anyone that cares about this issue, if you, if you have any, any ideas, I, I, I think that would be a, a great thing if we, if that became a movement.
Yeah.
[00:39:42] Stephanie: Mm-hmm. I mean, I, I love [00:39:45] meeting retirees who have realized that, like, there's nothing stopping them from spending their free time however they like, and- That's right ... you know, oftentimes having a lot of expertise, a lot of life experience. You're here in your [00:40:00] retirement. Elspeth Cypher, another recent return guest, you know, doing what she wants in her free time, and so, um, I don't know.
I can't get fired. I feel like there's a lot of talent out there. Yeah.
[00:40:11] Lynn: I can't get fired. Right?
[00:40:14] Stephanie: Yeah. [00:40:15]
[00:40:15] Lynn: Yeah.
[00:40:16] Stephanie: So, so that's, that's, like, one of the main things that needs to happen, is to- Yes ... expand the statute of li- limitations for medical- Yeah ... malpractice lawsuits. Yeah. I think I keep getting the FTC and the DOJ screwed up, 'cause I keep seeing, I keep saying Department of [00:40:30] Justice when it's actually the Federal Trade Commission, right?
That is-
[00:40:34] Lynn: Correct. The Federal Trade Commission is responsible for making sure that, that, uh, we don't have fraudulent business practices in this country, that people are not being [00:40:45] defrauded commercially. And so the angle there is that this is fraud, and, and so when you're, when, for instance, when you're submitting a billing and you have a perfectly healthy person, and [00:41:00] your billing code is, um, endocrine disorder unspecified, right?
Um, you're lying. That's fraud. This person does not have an endocrine disorder. And there's, and the FTC [00:41:15] did an entire day of hearings about a year ago, I think, and they heard all these examples of fraud, and there were witnesses that came. And since it was a public hearing, I think I can say this, but Presha [00:41:30] Moseley, for example, she was able to produce, and this is another thing that's great about lawsuits, is discovery.
Discovery brings things into the light, and that's a really good. So, so there were two letters from her. There was a letter from her [00:41:45] therapist recommending her for mastectomy, saying that she had no comor- comorbidities, and she was cleared for surgery. There was a note, however, written in her chart on the same day that outlined her [00:42:00] host of comorbidities, okay?
So put these things side by side. One of those is a lie.
[00:42:06] Stephanie: Yeah.
[00:42:07] Lynn: It's clearly fraud And so those things should be prosecuted. That's not med mal, and that's not covered by your insurance. [00:42:15] You're, you're on the hook for that.
[00:42:16] Stephanie: Mm.
[00:42:17] Lynn: You committed fraud.
[00:42:19] Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:20] Lynn: And that is the business of the FTC.
[00:42:23] Stephanie: And Glenna's working there now, so- Oh, Glenna
Glenna Goldys, who was on this [00:42:30] podcast, I get to boast. I love it when- She's
[00:42:33] Lynn: one of my all-time heroes. Yeah.
[00:42:34] Stephanie: I love it when, um... I mean, I get it, I kind of get it both ways on this podcast, 'cause sometimes I get people after they've already accomplished something really impressive, but sometimes I interview them early [00:42:45] on, and then they go on to do even more impressive things, and I get to be like, "I interviewed them early."
That would be Glenna.
[00:42:49] Lynn: That would be Glenna. She's, she's one of our rising stars. I, I mean, but I mean, I think we have to be honest with ourselves here, and, uh, part of the problem is that at the [00:43:00] moment we have a friendly administration for this. Um- Yeah ... we have the FTC in our corner. We have the DOJ in our corner.
We have, um, we have a lot of things going for us right now. But that can all change in one [00:43:15] election.
[00:43:15] Stephanie: Yep.
[00:43:16] Lynn: Right? So the time is now. It's never been more urgent, and we have, we've gotta do these things while we can, because the future is uncertain, right? Um, and that's another reason [00:43:30] why I really love, I, I, I really am pleased to be working in the lawsuit arena here, because lawsuits don't care about politics.
We, we will be able to sue these people, and we're going to sue [00:43:45] these people no matter what administration is in office, and no matter what the FTC or DOJ is doing. We will s- we are still going to bring these cases to trial, and it's going to come out in the open, and it's my belief that if, if, uh, [00:44:00] listen, if we get to trial, we're gonna win.
So their big strategy so far is just to prevent anybody from getting to trial, and they will block it any way they can. And so almost everything has been, everyth- it's a whole [00:44:15] process of It, the le- the US legal system is a maze, right? It's all, it's all a game, and it's all these rules, and there's all the...
You know, it's, it's twisted and confounding. And I'm not a lawyer, but I work with a lot of attorneys in this process, [00:44:30] and it, it just blows my mind how many different strategies they have for getting away with things. And the more money you have, the more things you get away with. That's just the way it is right now in this country.
But we are coming for them, and we are gonna win. We're gonna [00:44:45] get in court, and once all this stuff is on a courtroom wall, it, it's not defensible.
[00:44:50] Stephanie: Your trans-identified kid won't listen to reason because reason isn't what they need right now. They need a parent who knows how to communicate in an [00:45:00] empathic yet strategic manner.
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What can you tell us about current detransitioner lawsuits?
[00:45:35] Lynn: Chloe Cole's case is gonna come up, um, next year. I think it's summer. I think that one, that has a tremendous amount of power [00:45:45] behind it. Chloe's case is, it's, it's a bombshell, and, um, and it's in California, which is awesome. Um, so I'm really looking forward to seeing what's gonna happen there.
A lot of really important cases have been [00:46:00] dismissed. For example, Clementine Breem, who suffered as horribly, and it was all done while she was a teenager. By the time she was 18, she'd already had her breasts removed and all kinds of other damage done. And that [00:46:15] got thrown out in arbitration because Kaiser is a monster.
And th- they, they don't care, they don't care what they've done. Just all they, all they do is just get you thrown out. And the only reason that Chloe's [00:46:30] case was not thrown out in arbitration is they forgot to have her mom sign one of the forms that says that they can go to, they have to go to arbitration That's the only reason that her case isn't dead.
It's, it's that [00:46:45] silly, right? And they cover themselves really thoroughly. These people have done the work ahead of time because they know what they're doing is wrong, and they know they can get sued, and so that's why they've been covering themselves. This is why [00:47:00] when WPATH put out, um, Standards of Care 8, the SOC 8, the age limits were removed from the document before it was published.
You probably know this. And so what you need to realize is what [00:47:15] that demonstrates is that these standards of care were not, um, written or published to protect patients or to help young people or to guide in any meaningful way the careful and [00:47:30] helpful interventions that can be given to people. These guidelines were written to cover, um, people from being sued.
And so if you don't have any lower limitations, then you don't have any restrictions, and you, and you didn't [00:47:45] break the-- You see how it, it all works that way? So I, I think what's happening now with the, um, all the, all the things about WPATH that are coming to light, the more information that comes out and the more, [00:48:00] the more admissions that are having to be made in court, it- it's, it, this is all gonna fall apart.
And, and it's gonna fall apart, I think, pretty soon because, as I mentioned, if the, if the average timeline to get to a [00:48:15] place of profound regret is eight to 10 years, that's about how long it's been since we saw the big explosion in people and the new cohort of, um, especially young women coming and saying, "I think I, I, I need this."
It was about [00:48:30] eight, 10 years ago. This is about ready to blow up.
[00:48:33] Stephanie: Yeah.
[00:48:33] Lynn: Yeah.
[00:48:35] Stephanie: Heading into fall 2026 as we record this. We can feel it. Yeah. I mean, what did any, what did anyone [00:48:45] expect was gonna happen?
[00:48:46] Lynn: Right? Right. Did you really think that, that you could just keep doing this to young people who have parents that love them, and no one was gonna say anything, and we were [00:49:00] all just gonna stand idly by and say, "Yeah, I guess you're right"?
Uh, that, that's... W- what, what planet are they on? They're hurting people, and these people have families that care about them, and we are gonna say something. We're very uncomfortable with [00:49:15] this.
[00:49:15] Stephanie: Sort of a side note, but I often think about, like, what am I gonna do next? 'Cause I- I've just been led, I've just been shown one step at a time what my path was.
Like, I built this podcast to have just kind of a creative outlet, really, and [00:49:30] just explore my interests, and then certain things exploded, and then, you know, next thing I know, I'm, like, the gender expert. Like, okay. And, you know, now I have this whole... You know, I spend all of my... Like, I, I record these episodes one [00:49:45] day a week, right?
The other four days I'm talking to ROGD parents, and between sessions I'm writing articles, I'm publishing. And, um And that keeps me busy. And I'm just like, "Okay, this [00:50:00] is what I'm doing." Like, this, 'cause at one point I just decided to stop doing therapy altogether. I'm just gonna focus on my parent coaching practice 'cause at the time I was just spread too thin.
I, I didn't have the health energy reserves to do that many things. I was like, "I'm just gonna focus on this one thing." And then as soon as I did [00:50:15] that, I was really glad I did because I was like, "Okay, this is gonna allow me to go so much deeper into this thing that I really care about." And that's kept me busy for years now, where, you know, and I, I...
You know, people like to get [00:50:30] paranoid and accuse people of, like, ulterior motives, so they like to point the fingers at someone like me and they're like, "Oh, well she's profiting from this, so clearly she wants it to continue." It's like, it's like, right, I mean, yeah, 'cause I don't have any other [00:50:45] skills. I- it's, it's like, I- no, of course, I, like, I was a therapist before and I would much rather live in a world where the thing most in need of my attention was someone's marital discord, right?
Like, but anyway, I, I often [00:51:00] think, like, when, when this is not such an issue that I can have a full-time coaching practice helping families in crisis over this one particular issue, like, what am I gonna do next? And what I often [00:51:15] imagine is I, I think about, like, what you're talking about, people reconciling with their families because those relationships are gonna need so much repair.
There's, they've broken every which way. It depends on the family, right? But whether the kid pushed [00:51:30] hard for these medical interventions and the parents tried to stop them, or whether the parents played along and, like you're saying, it's gonna be hard for the parents to face their own remorse. I mean, we know detransitioners on every side, don't we?
We know detransitioners whose parents allowed their [00:51:45] transition and have yet to say, "I'm sorry I failed you," right? So we have every combination of family breakdown around this issue, every which way. And, and I think, well, if there's a case for family therapy, if, if [00:52:00] I've ever seen one. So nobody's, nobody's reached out to me about that.
Nobody has come to me saying, "Would you do family therapy post-detransition?" Whether it's the parents or the detransitioner coming to me. That's something I, I would love to be available for, and I think I'd kind of [00:52:15] open back up, you know, what I'm doing f- to, to accommodate that. But I just imagine, like, there's gonna be such a need for reconciliation for For the remorse, for the sorting through of all the [00:52:30] wreckage.
[00:52:30] Lynn: Yeah. I think we're gonna be taking a collective breath at some time and looking around and just, like, wondering, "How did we get here? How did we do this to ourselves? And what is the path forward?" And I work with parents all the time, [00:52:45] and it doesn't happen as much as it used to, but it used to be the only thing they wanted to know is, "Can you find me a therapist to send my kid to, to talk them out of this?"
Right? This is your world, right? And, [00:53:00] and okay, first of all, that's not what therapy does, right? Therapy is not a process where you go to the office and the therapy t- and the therapist tells you what your best life choices are. Therapy... I, I mean, I'm not a therapist, but my understanding of therapy is [00:53:15] that therapy is a process whereby someone who is willing to sit And contemplate and think openly about their life, can explore what brought me to where I am right now, and what do I need to work on, and it's [00:53:30] an open process of discovery.
And so it's not really the role of the therapist to fix it. You can't fix it, right? There's only so much that... Th- therapy is, therapy is a, a... Anyway, it's a, it's a whole different thing. Um, so parents are starting to realize [00:53:45] now, you know, we can't or you can't outsource this. You can't just kid- send your kid to the right therapist and they'll fix it.
It's, it's what, what is ahead of you is parenting on, on steroids, like the, the most [00:54:00] intentional, most difficult parenting you're ever gonna do. And what you need is help in, help to reinforce and, and guide you in that process of difficult parenting, and [00:54:15] it's my understanding that that's what you are doing.
[00:54:17] Stephanie: That is what I do.
[00:54:19] Lynn: That is what you're doing, Stephanie, and I think that that is exactly what's needed in this space. The unfortunate thing is that there are some people who [00:54:30] are making money off other people's pain, and, and they don't really have very good skills, and they shouldn't really be doing it.
But they're taking people's money, and nobody likes to think that someone's profiting off their very deep personal pain. [00:54:45] So you know, it's, it's really important that the right people are doing the kind of work that you're doing. So I, I really think that there's a need not just for you to be doing it, but I think it should be a whole life [00:55:00] coaching branch.
[00:55:00] Stephanie: Well, I mean, look, it's, it's one thing if someone's profiting in an exploitative way, right? Like- Right ...
[00:55:06] Lynn: but
[00:55:06] Stephanie: the, but the people who accuse, like, like when they're like, "Oh, she sells a course. Look, she's making money," or, "She sells this coaching package," it's like you realize this is [00:55:15] my job, right? Like this is- You don't deserve
[00:55:16] Lynn: to get paid
[00:55:17] Stephanie: for your work?
This is, this is my job that I work on. Of
[00:55:20] Lynn: course you deserve, yeah.
[00:55:21] Stephanie: Like by the way- Yeah, of course you do ... self-employment taxes- Oh, yeah ... self-employment taxes are- Right ... are insane.
[00:55:28] Lynn: Right. Right. You d- [00:55:30] you don't need to be doing this, and you don't have health in- you're having to cover your own health insurance.
Oh, I
[00:55:34] Stephanie: have
[00:55:34] Lynn: a health
[00:55:35] Stephanie: sharing plan.
[00:55:36] Lynn: You know? I, I know. I think- It- ... I think I told you about it. But, but this is the thing, you know. Of course you deserve to get paid for what you do. Y- everybody that writes a [00:55:45] book, if your book catches on, don't you make money? Don't you go to work every day and get paid for what you do?
We, we deserve that. You shouldn't, you don't, you don't... You shouldn't have to volunteer. But also you should have the skills that you're advertising you have. Yeah. You should [00:56:00] have something to actually sell.
[00:56:02] Stephanie: Yeah.
[00:56:02] Lynn: And
[00:56:03] Stephanie: a little bit of humility to go with it. And the thing is, like, you, it, it's so... I mean, the thing is, it's a really rotten landscape for therapists right now.
Like, I, I've met plenty [00:56:15] of very thoughtful therapists, some of whom I've interviewed on this podcast, some of whom are trying to have quiet lives and do good work without calling attention to themselves. And it's really hard to be a therapist right now, and that's another thing I see a need [00:56:30] for, is, like, people from my world.
And, and I can do some of this myself if I ever get around to it, but, but not just me, right? Like, people who are able to actually articulate from the therapist perspective why it is so hard for these [00:56:45] kids to get answers. Because the thing is, I, I assess a number of factors when I'm getting to know a family.
I'm forming a really detailed mental map of their kid, and that's why I spend minimum 10 hours with every client. Like, I, I won't spend less than 10 hours [00:57:00] with a new family, because we are gonna get to know you really well if my advice is gonna be based on anything, right? And as I'm mapping that out, s- I'll be listening for all these factors.
And one of the things I'm looking for is, what is the kid's motivation? And every now and then, I'll hear of a [00:57:15] kid who my heart just breaks for them because this kid has been brainwashed by the culture, but they do wanna know the truth. They want to know. Like, their, their so-called gender dysphoria is what I call in my [00:57:30] course ego dystonic, meaning there's a part of them that's like, "I'm suffering and I don't wanna suffer.
I want help. I want answers." Right? But the only answers they have available to them are the ones in the dominant culture. Therapists are afraid to speak out because of all of this political stuff, right? And [00:57:45] so I wanna communicate with those kids. I think Sasha Ayad does a pretty good job, um, of, of building that bridge.
We need more people helping these kids understand, "Look, here's, you do deserve answers. Here's why it's so hard to get them." Right. And not every kid is motivated to really [00:58:00] understand their condition in such a way that if the door, if, if the path to healing did not include so-called being trans, right, if it included working through the discomfort in a much less grandiose [00:58:15] way, would they want that, right?
And it's because there are so many kids who are so wrapped up in the Cluster B traits, the social justice ideology, all of that stuff- Those kids are contributing to the hostile atmosphere that makes it difficult [00:58:30] for the other kids to get real answers about what even is gender dysphoria, right? It's not this, like, official fixed thing that you think it is, right?
It's just you have distress. Here are all the possible [00:58:45] things it could be linked to in your life, and you do what people always do. You listen to the stories of those around you. You pick up on the vocabulary of your culture. You have a way of making meaning that fits into what you've been shown, and now you are [00:59:00] scapegoating a body part, and you really think that that body part is causing you d- the distress.
It's not the body part that's causing you the distress. It's that your distress has formed a particular set of neural pathways. Anyway, sorry, I just... It's a hard- It's a hard, [00:59:15] hard time to be a good therapist. It's a hard time- Yeah ... to be a patient that wants answers and can't get anyone to tell you the truth.
And, and thank you, Lynn, for having those honest conversations with the parents about r- the realistic, [00:59:30] you know, what they can and cannot actually expect from therapy. I think we need a lot more, like, conversations about, like, how to look for a therapist, what is limiting that particular therapist in your state.
But yeah, I mean, so much of it [00:59:45] does come down to, like you said, like a period of really intensely focused parenting. And the- Yeah, and it's not- The families-
[00:59:52] Lynn: Yeah ...
[00:59:52] Stephanie: the families with the best results out of all the ones that come to me are the ones that are, like, willing to turn their lives upside down, and that doesn't always mean moving.
[01:00:00] Sometimes it does, right? Sometimes it means literally relocating. But-
[01:00:02] Lynn: Sometimes, sometimes that's what you're gonna have to do, or you will lose. And you have to, it... And those are hard decisions. Yeah. But, you know, I mean, it, it's a hard time to be a young person in [01:00:15] pain, and the reality is that life carries pain, and I think, uh, right now maybe even more than ever, and life can be lonely and confusing and difficult.
And, you know, it's really [01:00:30] hard to pass it by if somebody tells you there's just a magic pill solution. And, and this is gonna, this is gonna solve it for you. And, um, I think it was you that [01:00:45] I got this illustration from, that it's like the foundational pillar belief that they have, this is gonna hold up my world, right?
I just need to change my sex and then everything will be solved. And, and the [01:01:00] first thing the parent wants to do is cut that tree down. This is not gonna solve. But you've gotta put up some other pillars first, right? You can't just cut the biggest beam under your house down until you put some more in.
And so these kids [01:01:15] need so much more, right? Um, and, and it's really hard, and your kid hates you the whole time, and your house is in turmoil, and your life is in turmoil, and, and you don't always have the rest of [01:01:30] your family on your team or your friends or your social circle or, or, or your doctor or anyone else.
And so it's a very lonely journey. So I, I do appreciate what you're doing very much.
[01:01:44] Stephanie: And [01:01:45] sometimes the siblings have to take priority.
[01:01:48] Lynn: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:01:49] Stephanie: Like, there, there comes a point where the trans-identified youth is imposing such a heavy burden on the rest of the family that it kind of feels like, like that, [01:02:00] you know, every parent's worst nightmare image of, like, you've got one kid o- in each arm dangling off a ledge, and you, you can only- Yeah
save one. Like, that's what it feels like. Yeah. And I've seen families make that difficult decision of, like, this one kid is causing so much chaos in the family that [01:02:15] we- Yeah ... really have to refocus on just protecting the siblings at this point.
[01:02:18] Lynn: Right. It's so hard. And, and then it's also really hard because, I mean, it's a, it's a absolute saying in the whole parent community that, um, bad therapy is much worse than [01:02:30] no therapy.
Just don't send your kid to therapy at all. However, some of these kids have such serious, I- I'd say actually really life-threatening comorbidities. They, they really need professional help. And that's when it gets really scary [01:02:45] because parents don't know who they can trust to work with their kid on maybe their OCD or their eating disorder or their sup- severe anxiety problems, all the other comorbidities that are [01:03:00] really frightening.
And, you know, you're just terrified that if you send them to, for help, they're gonna walk out with a prescription. And it's, it's really challenging.
[01:03:11] Stephanie: I know. And, and I meet so many families who just [01:03:15] have this kind of naive optimism coming from a place of desperation that, well, maybe I can get them to just work on their OCD, like you say.
Just work on the depression and just set aside the gender issue. Don't talk about gender, right? The kid won't talk about it, the [01:03:30] therapist won't talk about it, but somehow... And it's like, unfortunately, I, I don't have a lot of faith that that idea is, is viable, right? Because it is all connected, right? And that's, in this article that I mentioned earlier about the [01:03:45] causal chain of consequence, the i- the belief that builds its own cage.
Like, w- kids get to a certain point sooner or later in their gender ideation where the belief that they have to be [01:04:00] seen as the opposite sex in order to be okay, myself, happy, and move forward in life, that belief is directly feeding into their OCD, their agoraphobia. [01:04:15] Like, it, it, you c- you can't separate it
[01:04:18] Lynn: Right.
So who can pick this apart? It's tough. I really feel for therapists, and the few that are doing it, um, it's, it's a tough, tough road. And, you know, like you say, you could just [01:04:30] work on marital issues just as well and, and bill away and make your money and go home every night happy. And, you know, it's, it's tough, right?
So that's why it's hard.
[01:04:41] Stephanie: Well, I, I'm really enjoying just the banter with you and [01:04:45] just talking about life, and I'm realizing our listeners are probably like, "But what's up with the detransitioner lawsuits?"
[01:04:50] Lynn: What- Well, what about the lawsuits? Yeah, yeah. So, uh, yeah, there's, there's actually, there's a lot going on.
But like I say, um, our number of cases are limited, mostly because of [01:05:00] statute of limitations. And a lot of things are in various stages of back-and-forth legal maneuverings, the goal of which is to never have this case go to trial. And so that's what we're doing. We're back [01:05:15] and forth with that. But there's also a shortage of qualified and willing attorneys to take the cases.
There's only so many cases that an attorney can take, and there i- there are way more detransitioners than there [01:05:30] are, um, attorneys that are ready and able to represent them. It's my opinion that these people deserve the very best legal representation that we have in this country. Their cases are egregious, [01:05:45] and they deserve the, they deserve first-class representation.
So that's one of the things that we do at Themis. Um, we meet with attorneys that have never, never tried these cases but are interested in doing [01:06:00] so. And we try to help them prepare to do that, help them get networked in with other attorneys that have that experience, and, um, you know, how can we all help each other to make this happen?
And, uh, so [01:06:15] we, we welcome attorneys to come to our website. We, we host a, an attorney directory, and we're happy to meet with attorneys that are really interested in getting into this. And then we ha- also [01:06:30] have met with people from various walks of life who would qualify as, as experts. On perhaps expert witnesses, because that's another area that's really big, is that-- and that is where a lot of the [01:06:45] costs come in.
So you need people that are experts in medical review. You need people that are experts in this field of care, and lots of other things. And the typical fee for writing a, [01:07:00] an, an expert witness, um, uh, paper is about $30,000. And they're experts, and that's what they charge, and they get it, and if you don't pay it, you won't get it.
And the challenge is [01:07:15] that since we've had a grand total of one case ever get to trial, even though there's thousands of these people out there, the likelihood that you're gonna get to trial and you're gonna get a judgment is, right now, is, is actually is really low. [01:07:30] And you can invest $135,000 putting a case together, and it gets dismissed And lawyers are, by and large, lawyers are in it for the money.
Lawyers like to make money. That's what they [01:07:45] do. And i- and, uh, so what we're gonna have to do is get a few of these cases to trial, which takes resources, it takes funding, it takes networking, it takes experience. It [01:08:00] takes a lot. And I know we have thousands of parents that are listening to your podcast, and they're, you know, they're sitting at home like, "Yes, bring on the lawsuits.
I can't wait for that to happen." And that's why I started Themis, because we can all help to make that happen. [01:08:15] And so I'll, I'll you-- I'll, I'll give you an example. You have probably heard of Camille Kifer, and she is a young woman in Oregon, um, who regretted her mastectomy pretty much as soon as she had it.[01:08:30]
And she filed a lawsuit within the statute of limitations. However, as the case was progressing, her attorney was unable to continue for personal reasons, and so she lost her attorney, and we're talking about Portland here. [01:08:45] You're familiar with Portland, Stephanie. How many attorneys are we gonna find in Portland?
So there were none, and Camille was unable to get an- another attorney. And so at Themis, we, uh, were able to [01:09:00] find an attorney who was willing to take her case. He had never tried a case like this. He was a good attorney. He was a med mal attorney. He had the skills, but he didn't know anything about detransition at all, and he didn't know anybody.
And so we [01:09:15] were able to connect him, and then we helped fund things so he could get it filed, and then connected him up with, with, like I say, with the network. Um, we funded it again toward the-- when things were getting ready to go to [01:09:30] trial. They had a trial date in Portland, and then Camille s- they settled.
They got a settlement And, you know, while it's a little disappointing that that didn't turn into another big Fox-variant headline, you know, "Detransitioner Wins [01:09:45] $2 Million Lawsuit," nobody knows how much, I don't know how much Camille got, and that's okay. But Camille didn't have to go to trial. And so I am really happy for her that she did not have to endure that traumatizing experience of going to [01:10:00] trial and being attacked in court, viciously attacked in court.
And, you know, it's, it's so- for her, that was the best decision. So I think that was a great outcome, and that outcome would, would not have happened without Themis.
[01:10:13] Stephanie: That's, that's great. I mean, [01:10:15] it, it's, this is such important, like, I- it might seem basic to somebody who works in law, but just to remind us that there is this thing called settling out of court, and that that is a good, that is a good outcome in a lot of these cases.
It's not as [01:10:30] dramatic. But you're right that, I mean, these cases are tough. If you're the plaintiff, like, you are going to be picked apart, right? And, and the, the defendant's going to make their strongest case that this is all your fault, [01:10:45] or, you know. So, so it is important for people to bear in mind just how tough it is to be a plaintiff in these cases.
And I appreciated your point about needing expert witnesses too, because, uh, here's my vantage point. I've actually been asked to be an expert witness a couple [01:11:00] times. I don't think I'd make a good one. So, uh, one is I have to manage my stress, my energy, how many things I take on, but it's also because I'm so public, so outspoken, there are hundreds of hours of content of me expressing all kinds of opinions.
That's not the [01:11:15] person you want as an expert witness. The person you want as an expert witness has just a completely professional CV. They don't e- they're not a super opinionated, super public person, right? That's what gives them the credibility to [01:11:30] be able to break down these records and, and point out what went wrong with them.
I can give my two cents behind the scenes. I could be like, "Yeah, if, if I were your expert witness, this looks problematic, this looks problematic." But so that's a good reminder to people listening, because people who listen to this podcast often contact me [01:11:45] wondering how they can get involved in these issues.
Let's say they're You know, a concerned therapist or psychiatrist or, you know, "What can I do?" And so for one I'm like, "Well, tell me about your practice. Let me add you to my private referral list." But also, here's a perfect opportunity, [01:12:00] right? If you are somebody who would make a good expert witness, like get in touch with Lynn Chadwick at Themis Resource Fund.
[01:12:07] Lynn: Themisresourcefund.org. And if you're a concerned parent who, uh, would really like to see these things [01:12:15] move forward, I'll tell you, we would like to fully fund every lawsuit that happens, but we can only give away as much money as we are given. And so the more donations we get, the more we can help move this [01:12:30] forward.
And, and you know, we- so far we, we can't fully fund anything. We can help, but we can't fully fund, which maybe is okay because, you know, in the end when the attorneys win, they're, they're gonna get paid pretty handsomely, and I don't expect them [01:12:45] to pay me back. So, so, you know, I, I don't feel obligated to pay everything, but everything that we do will help.
And so yeah, we have, uh, we have plenty of room for people to get involved and become [01:13:00] supporters. Um, we have a, on our website, we have a payment link. Um, you can be a, a monthly supporter. Gosh, you know, if I could just get 100 people to send me $25 a month, um, it would just make all the difference. It really would literally make all the difference.[01:13:15]
If you can spare 25, 35, $10, I don't care, every month. And one of the things that's really great, and you don't even know how many hours I spent researching this, Stephanie. It was so hard to find. I found a payment platform that will take your credit [01:13:30] card, and there's no fee to you, and there's no fee to me So 100% of what you give to Themis goes right into those lawsuits.
Nice. And nobody at Themis, we're all volunteers. Almost the entire board is [01:13:45] composed of parents of kids that got affected by this. And so we're pretty much working on passion, and that's about it. But our board is composed of just me. I, I have no professional qualifications in [01:14:00] this at all, except I, I did work a lot on parent advocacy even as a NICU nurse.
I could really talk about that all day too. But-- And then we have, um, two attorneys and two psychotherapists on our board. So- Nice ... um, so we [01:14:15] have-- we try to keep a really good balance between legal, legal expertise, but also we believe it's really important to have that therapist insight within our organization, because the last thing that we want [01:14:30] is for a young person to get re-traumatized through the legal process, and we helped.
We don't want that to happen. So our, our application process has two parts. On our website, there's a place where an [01:14:45] attorney can file an application to get funded by us and, and they're always welcome to do so. But there's two parts to that application. The first is filled out by the attorney. What are your plans as far as this?
What's your strategy? What are your [01:15:00] resources? Because we, we wanna know this person has the chops and a plan, like they have a good chance of succeeding. 'Cause we're not interested in throwing people's money away. But the second part is filled out by the detransitioner. Do you understand [01:15:15] that this process is going to be long, and it's going to be somewhat miserable and, and, and, and you'll probably lose?
And you need to be realistic about what's gonna happen here. This is gonna [01:15:30] be a long, difficult process, and you're gonna have to go to depositions and, you know, it's, it's, it's gonna kind of bring you through the whole nightmare again. And so what are your s- what do your supports look like? Are you in therapy?
Do you have [01:15:45] family support? What, what is your support system? Because-- And we're here for you, but you need to think long and hard about whether this is a process that's really gonna be good for you right now. So, yeah. Because, [01:16:00] because, you know, there's, there's two parts to this. The, the first-- And, and they're both, they're both really equally important.
But one thing that happens to detransitioned people is that they, they can tend to get u- I hate to use the word used, but it kind of [01:16:15] is. Like, everybody has something that they want to do, and they need to y- kind of, for lack of a better word, kind of utilize detransitioners to do that. It, it can kind of become something where the [01:16:30] detransitioner's needs are not put first, you know, but maybe the need of the organization is.
Um, and, and in detrans lawsuits, I think it's really important that we never lose sight of the need of the, of the detransitioner. What, what, what are [01:16:45] their needs? And that should be honored first and foremost, even though the whole arena of detransition lawsuits has the power to stop the entire movement and save people from being medically harmed.
And [01:17:00] those two goals also are usually paramount in the mind of the detransitioner. Usually, the first thing they say to me is, "I wanna keep this from happening to other people. I don't want other people hurt like I was." Right? So it-- they're [01:17:15] two very distinct kind of hand-in-hand goals that go together. We never need to lose sight of either one.
[01:17:21] Stephanie: Hmm. Well, thank you as always, Lynn, for your very- Yeah ... compassionate and wise perspective on these issues. Yeah. So, uh, [01:17:30] remind people exactly where they can find, uh, you and Themis.
[01:17:34] Lynn: Yeah. Um, we are at-- Okay, so Themis, I just wanna remind people that Themis is the goddess of war, and that is where we got the sword and the scales of [01:17:45] justice.
No, she's the goddess of justice. So you see the scales? That's, that's way back from the whole, um, that whole, uh, tale. And also, if you-- we are the Themis Resource Fund, and if you take our initials, [01:18:00] it's TRF.
So- The turf ... we call it, it's the turf legal group. Anyway, um, yeah, people can go to themisresourcefund, um, .org, and you can donate one [01:18:15] time or you can donate on a monthly basis, which our, our continuing supporters are really the bread and butter. Sometimes after I do a podcast, we'll get, we'll get some one-time gifts, but then it just kinda levels out after that.
So if you could support us on an [01:18:30] ongoing basis, we, we would just love to have you. We are on X, formerly known as Twitter, under ThemisRF. So Themis, yeah, resource fund initials, ThemisRF. And you're also welcome to email us any [01:18:45] time, and, uh, our email's on our website as well. So we would love to hear from people.
And, you know, if you just wanna, um, email us and drop us a line and say, "Hey, we, we're just really glad we found you," we, we just love to hear from people. So [01:19:00] yeah, go ahead
[01:19:00] Stephanie: and contact us. And I'm, I'm... I, we did not plan this, but I'm gonna just, like, throw in something to sweeten the deal for listeners. Mm-hmm.
So donate $500 or more to Themis Resource Fund, forward me the receipt, and I will give you, as a [01:19:15] thank you for your contribution to them, free lifetime access to- ... ROGD Repair.
[01:19:19] Lynn: Stephanie, thank you so
[01:19:20] Stephanie: much. So here's what you do. Just clarify that one more time. Donate $500 or more to Themis Resource Fund, forward me the receipt for your charitable contribution [01:19:30] at hello@sometherapist.com, and as a thank you for your gift to Themis, I will grant you lifetime access to ROGD Repair.
[01:19:40] Lynn: Mm. Stephanie, that is so generous. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Yeah. Thanks for [01:19:45] having me on. I really value your friendship.
[01:19:47] Stephanie: Aw, value you too.
[01:19:48] Lynn: Thanks so much, Lynn. All right. Thanks a lot, Stephanie.
[01:19:52] Stephanie: Thank you for listening to You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a moment to [01:20:00] rate, review, share, or comment on it using your platform of choice.
And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy, and I'm not your therapist. Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for this awesome theme song, [01:20:15] Half Awake, and to Pods by Nick for production. For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, ROGD Repair.
Any [01:20:30] resource you heard mentioned on this show, plus how to get in touch with me, can all be found in the notes and links below. Rain or shine, I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today. In the words of Max Ehrmann, "With all its [01:20:45] sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:21:00] [01:21:15] world."