Near Future Podcast

Tom and Jonny sit down with Patrick Lewis, founding designer at Klay. They dig into why "good" and "right" aren't the same thing, how AI has flattened the design experience curve, the pun-named playground he built to prototype without baggage, and why saying no might be the most important design skill right now.

Chapters
0:04 — Meet Patrick Lewis, founding designer at Klay
1:05 — Building Clay: an AI music app made by musicians, not sales bros
2:27 — Content still has to resonate with humans, AI-generated or not
6:27 — Consistency builds trust: designing believable AI video avatars
10:16 — Figma bulls and bears: Jonny's rebuy vs. Patrick's near-total exit
12:37 — Where Figma still earns its place: branding and early sketches
13:42 — Founding designer for the fourth time: getting context fast with AI
16:51 — Building a pun-named playground to prototype without baggage
19:17 — Layoffs, flattened experience curves, and adopt-or-die
27:09 — Knowing yourself, saying no, and the founding designer's tightrope
36:44 — Capacity has grown, but so has the pressure to do it all
39:23 — Quickfire: chairs over AGI, decision-making he won't outsource, and granola

Patrick Lewis — https://patrickjlewis.com

Tools and products discussed
Figma — https://www.figma.com
Claude — https://claude.ai
ChatGPT — https://chatgpt.com
GitHub — https://github.com
Kit (newsletter platform) — https://kit.com
Granola — https://www.granola.ai

Find us at nearfuture.works


Creators and Guests

Host
Jonny Burch
Co-founder of Near Future
Host
Tom Harman
Co-founder of Near Future

What is Near Future Podcast?

A regular podcast covering design and AI from the founders of Near Future, a boutique AI consultancy focused on teams that care about craft. We cover both what we're seeing on the ground and industry trends, ways of working and occasional guests from the design world.

Tom: Hello, welcome to the Near
Future podcast where, this week

Johnny and myself are with Patrick
Lewis, who is a product designer at

the forefront of working with ai.

Patrick and I briefly worked
together, or slightly overlapped.

I had 10 years ago now I was leaving
Buzzfeed and you were joining, and then

you've gone on to do various exciting
things with various startups, speaking

with Y Combinator, with founding
teams, all sorts of exciting things.

and the specific reason I wanted to
invite you on to have this discussion

today is when we caught up earlier
this year, about six months ago.

The, this, the way you were working
as a designer using AI coding tools

was really blowing my mind at how,
advanced you could get and how far

into production you could take your

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Tom: So that was a, a really inspiring.

so thank you for

Patrick Lewis: Yeah, thanks for having me.

Excited to be here.

Tom: Great.

Perhaps you could give us a quick
overview of, where you are, where

you're working today, and, what you
are, what you've been up to the last

Patrick Lewis: Yeah, sure.

Tom: work-wise.

Patrick Lewis: I'm currently the founding
designer of a company called Clay.

that's Clay with a k, not the,
not the sales automation tool.

clay is a, is a music app, that
allows users to, hear their favourite

songs in a completely new way, and
really feel like artists themselves.

it is an AI music app, however, it's an AI
music app that was started by musicians.

I'm pretty sure everyone at
the company is a musician.

Our CEO is a classically
trained like touring, pianist.

And, and we, even the other
co-founder used to run, Sony, music.

And we're folks who deeply care about
artists and we're actually trying to

make music a, a first class, medium,
in the way that like video is today.

and before Clay, I was the founder
and CEO of a company called Tortuga.

Tortuga started as an ai, app studio.

but after building three apps, we
realised, just 'cause you build it

doesn't necessarily mean they'll come.

And so we began to focus on
building a suite of distribution

tools, for other builders.

and, yeah, that's, what I've been up
to in the last year and a half or so.

Tom: Excellent.

And I, feel like there's a, a, a theme
in your work around, or those examples in

particular around content and creativity.

So whether that's in music or I
know some of your go to market

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Tom: video avatars and things like this.

I, wonder if you could just tell us what
it's like from the frontier in terms of

role in relation to content creation.

do you have any, are there that transcend
those two, areas you've worked in?

tell us more about that.

Patrick Lewis: big question.

I.

There's, definitely like an underlying
thing where the human is still

the most important piece of this.

So obviously when we talk about clay,
we're talking about musicians, an artist.

we're trying to elevate them and, level
the playing field a bit, compared to

some of the other music platforms.

but I think content, I don't know, like
it has to resonate with the people, even

if it's, even if it's AI avatars or,
talking to you on TikTok or whatever.

Ultimately at the end of the day,
you're still trying to talk to a person.

And so if the message doesn't
resonate, then it it's a waste.

And, I think the same thing with
like generative music where, bad

generative music is just noise.

and, and yeah, I think
there's, something there.

And Tom, I know when we, caught up earlier
this year, I think I maybe showed you,

at Tortuga we were running a newsletter.

and we obviously used AI to help write
some of that stuff, but the way we were

doing it was based on conversations
that my co-founder and I were having,

that we were taking directly from
and then building it out from there.

as opposed to just telling Claude
or Chad, GPT make me a blog post

about the five design, traps you
can fall into or whatever, right?

yeah, ultimately at the end of the
day, like content is for people

and still has to resonate there.

Tom: Yeah, true.

Were there any, this is not
really a podcast about building

out detailed pictures of

Patrick Lewis: Sure.

Tom: but I'm curious about the limits
that you, came up against, especially

in that, the blog post writing example.

are there challenges that were,
are, you still running that today?

Were there challenges that meant
that it was too difficult to fully

Patrick Lewis: E.

Tom: but, things that you
think could be resolved in the

Patrick Lewis: Yeah, I think that, so
we've, paused, the newsletter for now.

but I, I think that the, I suppose in
like delivery logistics, everyone talks

about like the last mile, I think the last
mile in terms of content delivery still

could use an awful lot of love, and work.

we were using, we were
using Kit, I believe for our

newsletter to, to distribute it.

And, the platform was far more confusing
and traditional than I think, we can,

do better in, in 20 25, 20 26, right?

so I, do think like that was a part
of the workflow that I thought was

like, could be vastly improved.

of course, today maybe I just
go, all right, I'll try to build

something like that myself.

but, not that's advisable, but.

Tom: yeah, totally makes sense.

yeah, the, I, think, there was an example
from your work at, during Chattooga around

video avatars as well, on on social media,
that, seemed like a really fascinating

technical challenge to, do well.

were there, I'm curious about the
editorial challenges of making so

human-like and how you, are there
any design principles or design

how to navigate, something that
feels human, but is AI or, vice

Patrick Lewis: Yeah, I think,
probably the best, or like the most

transferable design principle there is
just that, consistency builds trust.

so I think with any, if you're designing
a checkout flow or financial product,

like you're, the moment that there's
something that feels off to the user,

inconsistent to the user, they begin to
ask questions and that takes them out

of, buying the thing or transferring
the thing or whatever it might be.

and when you take that and you apply
it to the, the tool that we built

was called ov, and, I wish there
was a cooler reason behind the name.

I just came up with the name
because the logo could be made

out of, the icons for videos.

so a stop button, a, a tilted play
button and then a pause button.

but, but yeah, obviously when you're
creating those avatars and creating

those videos, the character needs to
be consistent and so people begin to

recognise, when that person pops up in
their feed that they're talking about

whatever the product is or problem is.

But yeah.

Tom: Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah.

I feel like there's, in this
era that we're in right now,

it feels like trust is such an

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Tom: quality and I feel like a lot
of these design choices ladder up to

a human being behind it or there's
consistency in how something is presented

so that it feels more trustworthy.

Did you, yeah.

I'm curious if, that's still a theme
in your work now at Clay, how that

sort of been a factor in your design

Patrick Lewis: Yeah, I, think
with, with Clay it's probably less

of an issue around like trust.

ultimately, like on the business side of
things, like the artists are trusting us

to, make sure that their like revenue,
split is, representative of their,

listening time and things like that.

but, but yeah, less of a
theme, at, Clay right now.

Tom: that makes sense.

So think we've rushed too quickly
into content because I really had a

few more questions to ask you around,

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Tom: at this moment in time.

And before we started recording, you
were talking a bit about Figma and

how Figma fits into your workflow or

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Tom: and I'm curious if you could
just give us a, of snapshot of

what your daily design workflow

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Tom: h how, is that right now?

What, does it consist

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

So I think, I can tell you what
I'm up to today and, and what

after this podcast I'll be doing.

so I'm working on a feed.

and so I think this is, the feed needs
to be dynamic and it needs to adjust

to inputs that the user's giving it.

and these are things that I just think
fundamentally, like Figma is not really in

a position to, to do or to help me create.

and with, code, I'm able to, very
quickly prototype something and then

put it in the hands of the team and
understand how it, feels in the hand.

And I'm always a big, advocate of that.

I think, on the screen is one
thing, but feeling it swiping it,

touching it, that sort of tangible
aspect, makes a big difference.

And, and doing so, I could probably
like, finagle, Figma to allow me to do

that and like the spaghetti string of
prototyping inside of Figma, or I could

just, coat it up and make sure like all
the principles and things are still there.

And, I think it's just a much faster way.

yeah, I, rarely open, Figma these days.

Jonny: Interesting.

We're, basically doing a poll with
our guests of Figma, bulls and bears.

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Jonny: it feels like a
sort of a rough even split.

I'm a, I, personally have always found
Figma frustrating as a designer who likes

to get into code and build something real.

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Jonny: the beginning of this year,
I was like, Figma is gonna die.

I was one of those guys probably, watching
the, stock price go down and be like, yes,

Patrick Lewis: Sure.

Jonny: And then, I suppose my
opinion right now is a little

bit more measured in part because
I've been designing something.

And I think my hope for everyone
can now design with AI was that it

would feel like I felt when I was,
designing in code years ago where

it would take as long, but it would

Patrick Lewis: Yep.

Jonny: better at the end.

Like it would be higher

that it

Patrick Lewis: yes.

Jonny: be slow enough that you
would get to try things and

take your time over something.

And I feel like what we're, what we
have now is everything's so fast.

Like you just ask for it and then it
spits out a load of stuff and you're

like, I'm, it's not how I would've
done it, but I don't really feel

like I can be bothered to change it.

I'd rather just build
the next thing or, and,

so I found myself going back to Figma
in the last week or two, just so that

I can sit with a button for a bit

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Jonny: different inner shadows
look like just for a hot

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Jonny: which I could
actually do in code as well.

And that's what I

Patrick Lewis: For sure.

Jonny: all of this happened, but I
just found it really fascinating.

I,

Patrick Lewis: I do think that, I
think that Figma still has its place.

Like I, I, was probably with you and
then like Figma was gonna die and

then saw the stock price as well,
and was just like, yeah, I was right.

but, not that, makes me happy.

I've our friends that work there and,
want the, best outcomes for them.

but, I think where I use Figma
mostly today is, around visual,

and like brand and identity design.

that's still something where I
have yet to, develop a workflow or

even see a workflow that I am, that
can match, what I'm able to do and

Figma when it comes to those things.

as a, source of truth for product
design, I don't think, I don't

think Figma is that anymore?

but I do think that, it allows, certainly
level of granularity and, finesse that

maybe, when you're looking at a whole
thing, that you've coded up it, it's hard

to focus in on one element, sometimes.

Jonny: suppose it's that like moving
it away from source of truth to a

more ancillary tool where you are like
sketching in it and exploring visually.

And then actually you take that into the
tool where actually you do, where the,

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

And, I'll occasionally do that, like I'll
block out sort of layouts and different

things and stuff inside of Figma and
then bring that over, into code and

say Hey, use this as the foundation.

Here's how I'm thinking about it.

let's work from there.

so yeah, it's, I think it's good
at the very beginning, potentially.

And then I think Figma earns its place
potentially at the very end as well.

but I, do think that for a large part
of the flow, you can reach higher

fidelity and more accurately represent
what you're trying to build, using code.

Jonny: Yeah.

Patrick, I, I'd love to slow, I think
this is a continuation of the existing

conversation, but you mentioned, clay
and the fact that you're a founding

designer and you just joined, and
I've been a founding designer before

being a founding designer in 2026.

Probably as might be in some part a
little bit different to previously,

you can be so much more empowered
and you can just attack stuff.

So I'm just interested in first 90 days
or whatever the cliche is, like what,

like what have you been able to do that I
think that you couldn't have done before?

And is there anything that
people can think about if they're

gonna be a design team of one,

Patrick Lewis: A hundred percent.

So I've been, very fortunate
to be a founding designer,

now four times in my career.

so last year, two of the companies that I
helped start, exited and that was, great.

and, I think that, I think the founding
designers require like an awful lot of

trust and it's a, it's like a with great
power comes great responsibility, right?

Like you get to shape the thing, but
you also have a responsibility and,

to, set everyone else up for success.

it's, there's, a lot of design, in
that position, but there's an awful lot

of everything else in, in there too.

I think the way that being a
founding designer is different this

time around, is really, it's how
quickly can you get the context of

what's happened before you got here.

and so I've seen, I had a client
recently, that, their team was probably

the most efficient, and like AI forward,
like operationally that I'd ever seen,

where every, every meeting is recorded.

They have skills that then turn those
into, here are the decisions, here's

what, who made those decisions?

Like everything is tracked and
they're able to then assign

those to-dos to an agent.

Takes it, does it, and that's not quite,
we're not quite set up like that at play.

Amanda, does that make it an awful
lot easier to be effective earlier?

and what I've done this time around
is really just try to build my

own, it's kinda be the change you
wanna see in the world, right?

so any meetings I have get recorded,
get fed into a common system, are able

to be queryable, these sorts of things.

And then, that's allowed
me to be more effective.

I think the other thing that I, did
this time around that, I felt has

been really successful early on was, I
made a, a, a pun playground where, I'm

able to just explore, using code, and,
prototyping a pretty high fidelity,

but gives me a space to just go to town
and, and be free of, any of the design

work that may have happened before.

and I think that's actually
been, really helpful as well.

Jonny: Playground.

Oh, not every

Patrick Lewis: Playground.

Jonny: able to have that

Patrick Lewis: Playground?

No.

Yeah, it's a good,

Jonny: is a unique, uniquely

Patrick Lewis: yeah.

Jonny: opportunity for you.

You had to, as soon as you thought of
the pun, you must have had to create it.

Just, been a crime to have not, yeah.

And is that, using your, like
production components or is, have

you, are you built, is this like

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Jonny: or are you pulling
in production code?

Patrick Lewis: Great.

So my, the first week I was there,
I created a design system, and so

playground uses those components,
but they're very, just like primitive

basic components that we can later,
customise and do whatever we want with.

but I just needed like a sort of the,
the, building blocks the Legos and

are able to create something that
looks and feels like clay, even though

that is subject to change as well.

Jonny: Yeah.

Yeah.

For, for context, there's a few
engineers or some, some engineering

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Jonny: that exists.

they welcome you with open arms
into the code base and all of that?

Patrick Lewis: yeah, for sure.

I, think that, what's been interesting
is just to see, depending on where the

engineer has been, and what level of
exposure they've had to like AI in design.

and I've had conversations
where it's yeah, like design's

more than just ui, right?

but I've also had conversations
where it's yeah, like here's

this full blown animation.

It's documented here.

You can just take this, bring it
into your code and like you're good

to go and blow their minds, right?

And, and at that point you earned
your, earned your cred, if you will.

And now I have edit access in the
repo, but, but yeah, so no, I think

it's been mostly, mostly a welcome,
thing because I, you know, truthfully,

at least most of the engineers I've
worked with, that's not why they got

into engineering to begin with, right?

if they wanted to be a designer,
they would be a designer, right?

yeah.

So I, think it's been a, a
welcome, a welcome thing.

Jonny: Yeah.

And I'm sure if, you are the first
designer, they will have been excited

about having some design resource to make

Patrick Lewis: Oh yeah.

I mean I was, yeah, I was
like water in the desert.

Jonny: Yeah,

Patrick Lewis: Yeah,

Jonny: Yeah.

Patrick Lewis: they were very excited.

Have me on board for sure.

Jonny: Yeah.

Tom: I have a question related to
this theme, but relates more to

hiring and positioning, and I feel
like there's a lot of designers

out there who are, being laid off

Patrick Lewis: Yes.

Tom: to find the right role.

And then there's a, a small select
group of people who are very in

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Tom: are batting away people away.

I'm curious if you have any thoughts
or comments on what that experience has

been like for you over the last year
since you've, sounds like you've changed

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Tom: and specifically with this skillset

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Tom: because I could imagine
this is very, seen as very

valuable, especially for an early

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Tom: to bring someone
in who has that skill.

and I'm curious, how much do you think
that is, how much of a significance that

plays in why Clay wanted to bring you

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Tom: versus just because
of your sort of traditional

or strong UI

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

along with being a founding designer,
one of the really cool things you

get to do is hire a design team.

And, and I, really enjoy hiring folks
who have never been designers before

and giving them their first shot.

It's by far, been the most
rewarding thing in my career.

and I've kept in touch with each of
those designers, and at this point,

most of them are better than me.

but, I have a, a good friend, named
Jay who last year, she, really

struggled, to find a design job.

And she came to me in December and
shared very open, vulnerably with me

that Hey, I'm really struggling and
I'm, not sure design is for me anymore.

it seems like design has passed
me by and, obviously that made

me sad, but also want to help.

And we began working together,
a couple times a week, to build

up and they just get her exposed
to some of these new skills.

and, unfortunately, like she was able to,
land a job, pretty quickly after that.

I think that, I've seen even like
really, senior designers, like 15 plus

years experience, struggle to get jobs.

And so I'm always, cautious to
say this is easy 'cause it's not.

but I do think that now more than
ever what AI has done is flattened

the, like, experience curve.

previously you would look for
a designer with 10 plus years

experience to do whatever, right?

there's an argument to be made that
while yes, that person is probably

still the better designer, who's
the most effective candidate.

and it might be a designer who has
less experience, but who has more

exposure, and, has used sort of these
more modern tools and processes.

so I, I'm a firm believer.

I do believe that regardless of how we
feel about AI and AI's role in craft

and creativity, I, do think that it is
a little bit of a doc, a adopt or die,

and the thing that I've, enjoyed most
and like I probably have had, this has

probably been the most fun year and a
half or so of my career, is really that,

as designers, the things that used to
always bother us, we can own, and like

now we get to, kinda see that as an
opportunity to, make that change, right?

So there's no, oh, like engineering's
overwhelmed and that button is off

centre, but it's gonna remain off.

Centre.

'cause it's not a priority and no, you
can just hop in and make the change

and submit the PR and there you go.

so I think that if we, tweak the
mindset as designers that like,

this is not gonna replace us, this
is going to make us more effective.

I, I do think that, that can help.

but, yeah, hopefully that
answered the question.

I don't actually now

Tom: yeah.

Yeah.

Patrick Lewis: but yeah, I,

Tom: Yeah.

it a different question, that
was very, closely connected.

the, yeah, I, and maybe you weren't
comfortable answering the question of

you specifically, and maybe you can't
even answer it because it was really the,

the, the founder founders at Clay who
would've answered like, how important was

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Tom: they were looking for you?

think there's this interesting dynamic
in various companies and people that

Johnny and I speak with, where there
are companies that are extremely AI

native, who want to hire designers
and really value deep engineering

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Tom: and AI expertise.

And then there are some companies at
the other end, generally larger, more

traditional companies they have huge

Patrick Lewis: Yep.

Tom: and they are insecure
industries where they can't

actually have any designers using

yet.

And I think there's a sort of very
wide spectrum where companies are

struggling to find the right talent,
but also the right who want to work in

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Tom: have more choice, or they're
more maybe restricted about what the

options are, but there's more of an
intentional choice around, do I go

to the company where, maybe more of
a traditional setup, but I won't get

exposed to AI tooling versus, choice
where you have to go deep into AI to

be useful to how that company operates.

And that, that feels like
a very wide difference.

I think there's a huge difference in those

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Tom: I was interested in how that's
played out for you in, this, in, in Clay's

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Tom: hire you.

also, so it sounds like from our
conversation so far, you've been

following this thread of really
having fun or enjoying working with

AI as a, an assistant for coding.

yeah, I'm curious how much
of that's influenced by the

shape of teams that you've

Patrick Lewis: Yeah, I

Tom: versus just, So,

Patrick Lewis: yeah, I think it, maybe an
important thing, like I, I don't think I

would be a very good fit at like really
large companies for, a variety of reasons.

but, I, enjoy doing more,
wearing multiple hats.

And so like I've always erred on the
side of, super early stage stuff.

I've taken a few departures, Buzzfeed
included, because, there was a, at the

time, a, a head of design there who I,
really, respected and wanted to be a

part of, his team, cap, cap Watkins.

And, but for the most part, my career
has been super early stage stuff.

And so I think that it makes sense
because that's the, that's sort of

the type of team and size of the team
and stage of company that I enjoy.

That's the skillset that I've focused
on is like, how do I outproduce what

you get when you hire one designer?

to me, like if you hire me, you get
someone who has been a founder and

has a business degree and, has some
technical chops and, also is a designer.

yeah.

I think there's a completely
different shape skillset that,

you know, I, probably don't have,
to, join a really large company.

and so yeah, I do think there's this,
there's kind of a, a chasm that's formed.

Like I think you, fit the nail on the
head where like you have small teams

who need the most out of the small
number of people they're able to hire.

And so they're looking for
really broad skill sets.

And then I think you've got some
industries and some larger companies

who are hiring designers who can
go really deep because they have a

team of design engineers and front
end engineers and all these sorts of

things that like, the, the early stage
company just really, can't afford.

Jonny: I think it demonstrates, maybe
your tenure as a designer that you can

confidently know thyself or whatever and,

Patrick Lewis: Yes.

Yeah.

Jonny: what you are into
you are less suited for.

I, hope I know that in myself as well.

And I think it's something that
everyone should strive towards to feel

comfortable in your own skin or to not
look over the wall and always think, oh,

maybe I should be doing that as well.

Actually saying, yeah, that's
cool that they can do that.

And it's cool that,

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Jonny: that company hides for and it's
not for me and to be at peace with that.

I do

Patrick Lewis: My,

Jonny: hard in this,
Twitter x driven design,

Patrick Lewis: Yep.

Jonny: ecosystem to, not feel
like you are always behind you.

You should always be doing more of
the thing you're not doing constantly.

I'm just interested in you always, did
you always understand this or was it

just a process of, it's like mistakes.

Patrick Lewis: Yeah, no, this, it gives
me a good chance to tell a, good story.

my, my best friend is a, like a
CPO at a bunch of companies that

everyone and their mom has heard of.

And, we met really early in
our careers, and they took

wildly different paths, right?

I went super small and he went very large.

and, and it's always interesting
to me because we share a lot of the

same characteristics and we enjoy
a lot of the same things, but we've

just applied them very differently.

and I think that the, takeaway, the, the,
advice that he gave me a very long time

ago was just like, to tell a good story.

And, a good story allows people to,
root for the main character, right?

wanting you to succeed.

it allows them to want to be a part
of it, and, and you can follow it.

and so anytime I make a career decision,
I think about the story that it tells.

And, obviously I, I've, there's a
certain, there's, a drawback to that

too, which is like, when you realise
a company is not for you, it does

require you to then leave and, go
find something that is true to you.

And, but I'm just always I'm a person who,
if I love something, I, will work harder

than anyone else to, be good at that
thing, even if I'm not good at it yet.

and, funnily enough, like I earned
a, track and field scholarship for

discus and hammer throwing, to college.

And most discus and hammer throwers are
very tall and, have super long arms.

I am neither of those things, and
definitely I have T-Rex arms and, but

I, practised on Christmas, my birthday,
I practised on the day of the prom.

I practised when it was cold,
when it was hot, and, I just,

without work the other people.

And so, I think it requires you to
identify yourself, what you enjoy doing,

and then that ideally makes the work a
little bit easier, or at least, in the

kind of dog days, in the, when churn's at
an all time high, when CAC is too high,

like all this sort of stuff, it allows
you to keep showing up and be excited

about the, the thing that you're doing.

but it definitely took me a
little bit to, to identify that.

but

Jonny: And as a founder, those
highs and lows are, significant.

Patrick Lewis: Oh yeah.

Jonny: to have a practise that you
can lean on and like to know where

your energy comes from and, why
you are doing what you're doing and

all of that stuff is so important.

you can get lost in what's
happened today or what the

Patrick Lewis: And I think,

Jonny: to you, or how

Patrick Lewis: yeah, and I,

Jonny: et cetera.

Patrick Lewis: yeah, I think the other
thing that you brought up was like, around

X and sort of the design narrative and
conversations that are happening and it

is really easy to feel like you're falling
behind or you're missing out or you're not

gonna make it, or whatever it might be.

I do think that trying to, maybe as
cheesy as it sounds or whatever, but

trying to look inward and understand what
are you about, what do you find joy in?

How can you do more of that?

what you're good at, like I'm not good
at, if you ask me to fine tune the

inner shadows of a button more than
twice, I'm probably gonna go crazy.

I'm just gonna be like,
ship, shift the button.

Let's see if anyone clicks on it,
then we can make it real good.

but, but yeah, but I do think that, just
knowing that, is, a, really big skill

and, something that, I don't know, it's
a gift, like clarity is a gift, yeah.

Tom: Think before we started
recording, you said, and I broke

this down, saying no is more

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Tom: and I feel like that, I feel like
that's a nice sort of theme that you've

been covering as well with the, the
idea of knowing yourself, of getting

a certain expertise or a depth of
expertise to be able to draw from that.

I'm curious if you could
expand on that a little bit.

Is there anything else that, that
makes you think of saying no is

more important than ever now.

Patrick Lewis: I think that, in, in
that context, like fortunately, the

skillset that I have has been in demand.

And whenever opportunities
are presented to me, they go

through that same sort of filter.

And, is this gonna be
something I enjoy doing?

Is this going to help me grow or
develop more skills or present new

opportunities in the future and stuff?

so I, I think like learning to say
no to opportunities, and I realise

that's a place of privilege that
like, Hey, listen, like you got

bills to pay, you are gonna say yes.

I've had lots of jobs and being a
designer is by far the best one.

but at the same time, if you are in
a position where hey, you're being

recruited by a couple different
companies, like knowing, yourself,

knowing your skillset and what you want
to get out of it is going to help you

make, make the most informed decision.

and then obviously like in practise,
like in design, with ai it almost

feels like, anything is possible.

but that, that can also be, that can
also have, its, downsides too, right?

I think you could just find yourself
endlessly tweaking and playing

with things and adding things.

And, yeah, at some point you've
gotta, you gotta know when to, stop.

and, I wish I had a great framework
or something to, work off of, but a

lot of times it's just, you feel it.

And I, try to keep in mind that everything
has to earn, its, earn its lease.

but yeah.

Jonny: Yeah.

Tom: Yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna ask
you about that actually in relation to

a, comment you had earlier about working,
like with a small team and engineers trust

you enough to give you, edit access and
GitHub and all these like, clearly shows

you built a strong, trusted relationship
with engineering, which is really good.

But there a downside to that, that
your day-to-day work is pulled so much

into the engineering space that it is
harder to do the pure design tasks?

I'm curious where saying no
and pushing back fits into that

overall picture of you, like to

Patrick Lewis: I think, yeah, I
think that at least at Clay, the,

thing I've been focused on is really
saying no to additional features.

I think that, it just because things
are easier doesn't necessarily

mean they take less time.

We, I think we talked before we
hopped on here, the difference

between good and right.

And it's never been easier
to make something good.

Like that's, you can make something
good if you know what you're doing.

but making it right, knowing
what's right is still very hard.

and yeah, I don't know.

I think that by saying no to, to two
additional features to scope creep, this,

this type of stuff, I'm able to reserve a
bit more time to focus on, the design of,

the, the feature set that we have today.

because, if we're, if you just
try to spread yourself too thin,

I don't think it's possible to
do like really high quality work.

that stuff still takes time.

Jonny: Feels like the perpetual
of a founding designer ship,

to be honest, is like you

Patrick Lewis: Yep.

Jonny: constantly advocating for more
time and less time at the same time.

Like to yourself, you're saying
maybe I should go faster and to

the rest of the organisation.

You are,

Patrick Lewis: Yes.

Jonny: I actually this, we should do
this better than this, or, there's,

Patrick Lewis: Correct.

Jonny: tightrope you're walking

Patrick Lewis: Yeah, it's, yeah,
it's, funny because it's, one

of these things where I want
my friends to try the product.

I don't want my, designer friends
to try the product, and, and but

that's actually that's the right,
at least so far in my career, that

I've found that's the right balance.

Like you, you if you wait too long
to where it's really impressive

to your designer friends, chances
are like, you've, gotten beat out,

beat to the punch by someone else.

but, but if you ship too soon.

Yeah, exactly.

yeah, that's yeah, it is
a, constant tension there.

And, yeah.

Tom: Ask you one more question,
Patrick, before we switch to our,

Patrick Lewis: Sure.

Tom: The, the point you said there
really made me think of this, of as a

founding designer, in addition to those
two things you mentioned, you're also

somewhat responsible for knowing when
something is, the workload is beyond

the scope of what's reasonable for a

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Tom: and when you should hire someone
or when you should bring in perhaps

someone to focus more on the brand or
you focus on the product or marketing

or some other aspect of the craft.

I think you're in a u unique
position to be able to calibrate

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Tom: is.

And I'm curious if that is in the
same point as it was two years ago

if you now feel like your capacity is
significantly changed as a result of

using AI to do more adjacent design

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

so I do believe that capacity
has definitely grown.

I think that's also presenting some
challenges in the job market, right?

companies feel like they can get more
out of their existing teams, so you're

seeing hiring slow down or you're seeing,
folks unfortunately get laid off as well.

and but I, do think the capacity is
greater and I think the scope of the

things you're able to do is greater.

So not only are you able to do more, of
it, but you're able to do more of it.

and, yeah, that's certainly true.

that bar has definitely,
changed a little bit.

yeah, I don't, I actually don't know
when the next, like when we will hire,

I'll let you know when the next hire
for, Clay's design team, happens.

because I, don't anticipate
it'll be for a while.

and, but I do also believe in bringing
folks in for specific, disciplines.

So brand is something that I'm
super passionate about and I

think is to me at least the
hardest design discipline to nail.

and so allowing some to just go deep on
that and focus on that while I handle

all the other things, is, is, valuable.

Jonny: It found the, the founding
designer loves to be Atlas with the

weight of the world on their shoulders.

And as soon as there's

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Jonny: then you lose that,

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Yeah.

It is also, yeah.

Yeah.

Jonny: that

Patrick Lewis: Also, yeah.

Jonny: hard as nails

Patrick Lewis: Was it.

Jonny: know, I'll take it on,
I'll take something else on.

I'm designing two different things
with my two different hands,

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

But I, yeah, I don't think that's
all that much different from

just being a founder itself.

It's it's hard to give that
up and, allow someone else to

run, with things for a while.

but, but yeah, for sure.

Jonny: Should we switch to, fire?

Tom: yes.

so Patrick, we have a few

Patrick Lewis: Oh boy.

Tom: These are short
questions and hopefully have

Patrick Lewis: Yep.

Tom: so we'll just, we'll maybe
pick a couple each and we'll

Patrick Lewis: Sounds great.

Tom: My first question for you is
when a GI takes over everything,

what will you do with all

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

so I thought about this, a little bit.

so I'm glad you asked it.

I, I really enjoy chairs and
so I would, just make chairs.

I would like, get some woodwork
and tools and and go to town.

big, fan of like interior design stuff.

And so I think that, making
kind of furniture would be,

would be really enjoyable and
still allow me to be creative.

still allow me to see the output and
get user feedback, but, but yeah.

Tom: Love it.

Love it.

So it's particularly wooden chairs,

Patrick Lewis: I could, I could,
I suppose I could brush back on my

upholstery skills and maybe, add
some cushions there or something.

But, yeah.

Yeah.

Jonny: of the, three Doors, designers
choose when they answer this question,

which is the, the buckets of music,
coffee slash meat, and ch and furniture

slash making things with your hands,
you have chosen door number three.

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Door number three.

There you go.

Exactly.

Jonny: my question for you is, what's
one thing about your craft that

you don't want to give over to ai?

Patrick Lewis: Decision making.

I, want to have the call, like
a, use like a sports analogy.

if it's the fourth quarter, like
I want the ball in my hands.

and so I don't want to hand that over.

and I, think organizationally it's still
important to have humans own the outcomes.

and so I think that's probably
the, the thing I'd say.

Jonny: Amen.

Tom over to you.

Tom: Last.

Yeah, my last question.

So what is the silliest thing
you've prototyped Purely because you

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

so since moving, since moving to Rhode
Island, I've, gotten back in the gym.

And, I, despite there being a
million fitness apps out there,

I definitely made my own.

but I coded it to just my workout
programme, so it's really a, a single

player, single user sort of experience,
just completely over-engineered.

but it allowed me to, to do some branding
and, do a little iOS stuff and, yeah.

But just absolutely no good reason to have
that and way more work than the utility.

But, but still fun.

Tom: Amazing.

Amazing.

And, so it's, so the, the
workout itself is hard

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Yeah.

The pro, yeah, the workout programme.

Like how many rep stuff,
it's just like a, yeah.

but, but I recently talked to my trainer
though, and was like, Hey, listen, I can

make one of these for all of your clients.

so we'll see.

But, but yeah.

Tom: Yeah.

Jonny: Nice.

Nice.

and my last question and our last
quick fire question is, what is your

favourite product at the moment?

Patrick Lewis: Ooh.

okay.

Good question.

Hang on, lemme pull up my phone
here and just do a quick check.

I'm not gonna say Claude, right?

Like we can't, like that's just, that's

Jonny: Some

Patrick Lewis: bogus.

Jonny: it We

Patrick Lewis: No,

Jonny: you don't.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Patrick Lewis: we can't.

Yeah.

we gotta do something cool.

Oh, granola,

it's powered, the second
brain, that I have with Clay.

it's part of my, like PRD workflow.

it was part of our, newsletter workflow.

and I just think they've done
a, really, good job at making

a, a very simple product, do the
thing that it does really well.

and yeah, I've gotten a, I've gotten a
bunch of people, to adopt it and start

using it and stuff and yeah, probably go.

Jonny: Pulling bread
around the corner from us.

Patrick Lewis: Oh, really?

Tom: Yeah.

Patrick Lewis: Oh, very cool.

Jonny: Yeah.

Yeah.

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

There, the moment that it clicked for
me was, at the end of last year, they

do Spotify wrapped and all this sort
of stuff, and granola did their version

and their wrapped was so accurate and
so good that I realised just how well

they knew me and knew my work and
knew my team that I was like, got it.

this is insanely valuable.

yeah, no, they're, killer.

I'm, a big fan of what they've built.

Jonny: Yes.

Yeah, both.

Both.

Also users.

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Awesome.

Jonny: Patrick, where
do we find you online?

there, any, anything you want us to add
into the show notes or, shout out for

Patrick Lewis: so based on my,
take on design Twitter, you

won't find me much on Twitter.

so you can, find me, just on my
website, patrick n lewis.com.

I, I'll, I occasionally update, do a
little writing, and then I, I share

some skills that I've made, just based
on my kind of workflow and experience.

Jonny: Awesome.

Tom: this has been, super fun.

Thank you so much for taking the
time to chat with us today, Patrick.

super cool to hear about your work
and how that's evolved since we

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Tom: and yeah.

Yeah, this has been great.

So let's wrap up there.

Thanks so much for everyone,
for listening and making it this

far, and thanks so much, Patrick

Patrick Lewis: Yeah.

Thank you for having me.

Cheers.

Jonny: See you.

Bye.