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This week, Jay chats with the prolific Kristen Meinzer! You probably know her from her incredible show By the Book Pod, or from another of her fiftyleven projects.
Discussing issues of Mental Health, Substance Misuse and Recovery, and Drug Use & Policy with host Jay Shifman, Speaker, Storyteller, and Advocate.
Each week Jay chats with interesting guests as they seek to destroy stigma and advocate for honest, educational conversations that motivate positive change.
You can learn more at https://jay.campsite.bio/.
Choose Your Struggle has been streamed in over thirty-five countries and is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever else you get your podcasts.
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* Transcript isn't edited for clarity
You are listening to the, choose your struggle podcast, a member of the shameless, a podcast network.
Hello, and welcome to the choose your struggled podcast. I'm your host, Jay Schiffman, on this show, I interview people with lived and learned experiences and subjects of mental health, substance misuse, and recovery and drug use and policy. But occasionally we talk about other topics as well. On this week's episode, I interview Kristen Meinzer.
She's a critic and author and one of the hosts of the by the book podcast. But first kid Bentall let's go. No, it's going to go.
choose just
Hello and welcome to another episode of the chooser struggle podcast. It's so great to be back with you all. I am Jay Schiffman, your host. We have a great episode today. Uh, but first couple of things. Number one. Thank you. So, so much to everyone who reached out with the kind words of welcome back and, and, you know, uh, shared the show last week was very popular.
Uh, thank you. Uh, as I was, I'm recording this early this week. Uh, it's still going on, so, uh, thank you. Thank you. It really meant a lot for people, you know, to reach out and be like about time. Um, sorry. I kept you waiting, uh, on the show for season three. Yes. Thank you. Um, really appreciate. And, and a huge thank you to Ethan who shared it all over.
Uh, he emailed me to say again, how much he enjoyed the conversation. Uh, he recently had a new episode out with a guy by the name of San Quinonez, who some of you may know as the author of dreamland a book that at the time was very revolutionary, a little as we look back on it, not as, um, you know, th.
Thinking around some of the issues in that book have changed and his new one, I'm like afraid to read a habit sitting here behind me on my bookshelf. I'm scared because I really liked, I like his writing and I met him. He's a nice guy. Um, but he took a hard. We are turn with this one. That's basically just, um, it's re it's sourced very much from law enforcement and that scares the crap out of me, uh, before I even read it.
So I'm not going to have, you know, a review or anything. I'm just scared to read up because I like, I like his writing style. I liked dreamland, even though it wasn't, you know, some of the policies or the thinking on drug use in it, isn't amazing. Um, but I say all this because, um, Ethan Nadelmann shows psychoactive is back.
You should check it out. He has an episode out with Sam where he w we exchanged emails and he said, uh, yeah, it got a little tense. Um, so I'm excited. I'm going to listen to that one, uh, ASA. Uh, what else is going on? Oh, I don't know. Just a little thing called made it by the time you hear this, it will be a week away.
As a reminder on that next week, there will be no episode or normal episode of choose your struggle. Instead, what you'll be hearing is episode one of season, one of your struggle presents made it a stay Savage episode. One is an intro episode. Uh, the actual story itself doesn't start until episode two, which is it's fun.
I think episode one really fits well as sort of a Monday motivation type episode of this show, uh, which is going to be really interesting. Definitely encourage you to listen to it on the made it streams. You can go ahead and start listening to episode two right away for those of you who still have not subscribed.
The link is in the show notes and episode one will be dropped on this feed. Um, next week, very excited about that. As, as I'm, as I'm recording this yesterday, Monday, I did drop the episode list, uh, publicly. It was released last week on Patrion. If you have not got checked out the Patriot on yet or signed up, please do so.
Again, the lowest entry level is just $3 and 40 cents. And a couple of, sort of, sort of what that is like, number one, they got a sneak peek of this, this, like I said, it dropped on patron last week. Uh, they got behind the scenes stuff along the way. You can go back and look at some of that stuff. Uh, they get, there's a L there's a, a bunch of stuff, a bunch of things, depending on the level, you sign up for it.
But the number one thing is just more access to the behind the scenes of making all the stuff we do here. Choose your struggles or check it out. That's in the show notes as always, or you can find it at patrion.com/choose your struggle. Um, so yeah, maybe it drops next week. The show that the episode list is out, um, you can find that on my Instagram on pretty much every social media.
Uh, thank you to all the Savage peeps for sharing that all over all the people who have reached out to say how excited they are. It really means a lot. I'm very excited for this trip. Uh, that's pretty much it in terms of, of updates. Um, you know, like I said, you won't hear from me from a couple of weeks after this because made it as next week.
And, um, that's going to be the focus of my life for the next 10 days. Uh, but this week before, before all that, this is a really cool episode. Uh, the guest today is Kristen Meinzer who you may know from, I don't know, a billion different places. Um, I first heard her, uh, because my wife, Lauren is a fan and was like, this person's really cool.
You should check her out. She hosts a podcast called by the book, uh, where she and her co-host live. Um, literally by the book of self-help books for two weeks at a time, some of them, well, as she says on this, not a single one of them ever gets a hundred percent. I mean, there's, they're, they're very difficult at times and a lot of them are problematic and yada, yada, she is also a multi time author.
Uh, she's a host of multiple other shows and you may have heard her voice on one of my favorite, uh, MBR shows, pop culture, happy hour, where she is a frequent contributor. Um, she's just a really wonderful person and a really, really intelligent person doing some really cool work. It was an honor to chat with her.
I really enjoyed this. Um, she's a legend in the podcast world because she's been doing this for, for, um, I mean, you know, she was an old, she's an OJI. She's been doing this for over a decade and, you know, podcasting so young. So she was, it was early in this game. Uh, I really, it was a joy to learn from her to, to, to learn, to, to listen to all the wealth of knowledge that she shared on this episode.
And I think you're going to love it two really quick notes. Uh, I forgot to say this last week, but both Ethan and high had head colds, mine. Uh, you still here on this episode cause they were recorded on back to back days. Um, and I think this is the last episode where I had a head cold. I might have one more coming.
Sorry about that. I don't sound amazing. Uh, but Kristen sounds great because she did not have. The other, this was, this was hilarious to me. So we talk about one of the sort of, uh, really famous for being so problematic self-help books, which is, um, okay. The official title is wash your face. Um, If you don't know that book, it's just, it made headlines for sort of having some really troubling things in it.
Here's, what's funny. When I, when I asked her about it, I conflated it with the, um, how I met your mother, did a take on that book, um, sort of, uh, a joke on its title. Um, and the, it was Jennifer Lopez's character. If you remember that episode, Jennifer Lopez, uh, plays the author and that book was, um, of course you're still single.
Take a look at yourself. You dumb slut. Uh, and I couldn't remember the name of the actual book again, it's wash your face by Rachel Hollis. Uh, and so I said, For something on the episode, like the wash, your face, your stupid batch or something like that. Um, because that was, you know, I was conflating the actual book, uh, wash your face and how I met your mother.
Uh, take joke on, on that book, of course, you know, look at yourself, you know, I'm slut. Um, so, uh, my, uh, my apologies for making the book title overly, uh, you know, offensive, uh, it is not actually called wash your face. You stupid bitch. I was mixing those two things up. My apologies. That was, that was kind of funny, but also a little stupid.
So sorry about that, Rachel Hollis, although, you know, that book has its own problem, so I'm not that, sorry. Uh, anyway, this is such a great episode, uh, and I don't want to say anything more. I just want you to enjoy this wonderful conversation with someone that I just I'm so appreciative that you took the time because she was incredible, Kristen.
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Hello, and welcome back to the choose your struggle podcast. It's great to be back with you all we're we're, we're chugging along here in season three and, uh, the hits keep coming. We have an amazing guest with us today. Somebody that, uh, probably most of you already know, she, she is a very big name in the podcast and world.
And I don't get to say this often, but I'm going to say it today. She literally wrote the book on podcasting. So, uh, it is, it is wonderful to have you, you with me, Kristen. Hello. Thank you so much for being here. Hi, I'm so excited to be here, Jay. Thanks for that. So I said this on the way in, and I'll say it again now because all of my listeners have heard my wife before that she has a static that you're on the show today.
Uh, she's actually who introduced, uh, uh, your work to me a couple of years ago. Um, and it was because when I was starting out in podcasting, uh, as I joked before, she actually was like, here's someone who wrote the book and whose work I love you should check them out. Um, you are to put it simply prolific in the podcasting world.
Uh, you, you, you have, have hosted multiple shows. You have one of them. That is, it is one of the most widely known shows in podcasting. Uh, you are a frequent guest on other people's podcasts before we really get into your work, though. What is it about podcasting that really appeals to you? What is it that makes you go like, yes, this is my.
Oh, well, when I was a little girl, I dreamed of being an author of writing, you know, uh, the kind of literature that would win national book awards and so on important literature of capital I capital L. And, uh, I have to say when I finally was fortunate enough to be able to be in an MFA program and doing that, I realized how incredibly lonely it was and sitting alone writing quote unquote important.
Uh, literature is very isolating and I really commend all the people who are great at it, but what I love about podcasting, um, and I just kinda got thrown into the deep end with it. One of my employers, just essentially, it was like, you're going to be hosting a show now. And at that point, I realized how much more fun and collaborative it is as a storytelling mechanism, because, uh, I can talk with people like you who are so fun and lively.
I can interact with listeners who have feedback on things. I'm saying I can have an intimate relationship with people rather than just typing out words and seeing, you know, well, maybe it'll end up on a list somewhere, or maybe it won't. And, uh, with podcasting it's so different. We are fortunate to have relationships with our listeners.
We are fortunate to feel that we're not just alone with a typewriter by ourselves, and it can be such a fun and, uh, unpretentious. To say the same things I might in quote unquote, important literature, and to speak to people in an intimate way that they can enjoy at any time, pretty much they can enjoy that conversation while they're walking their dogs while they're dropping their kids off at school, while they're grocery shopping, while they're doing mundane stuff, they can't stand like washing dishes.
If you're me, I hate washing dishes, but, uh, if I have a podcast on it so much better. So there's that intimacy that chance to reach people wherever they are. And, um, I, again, I often, uh, get to do it with other people like you, uh, whether it's a co-host or being a guest on someone else's show and every one of those conversations makes my life better.
So I am so grateful for this moment with you. And any moment I get to talk with him, That was so beautifully said. I want to sort of echo that again, as a, as a, also as a former professional writer, the ability to build community through podcasting is unparalleled. You know, it's, um, it, when I was writing, if I was lucky, someone would reach out having read something I wrote here, it's weekly.
It's it's, this is what this show means. This is the conversation I'm having from all around the world. And it brings people like us together, which is just so beautiful. And that's something that I think you've done. So expertly with your work is you've built this community. I mean, it, your multiple, uh, of, of your, uh, of your work has a dedicated community from all around the world.
Before we really get into that work, though, talk about what that's meant to you to have that sort of community built around this, this thing you care so deeply. Oh, gosh, it's everything. And when people choose to listen to any of my shows, that is a huge investment of time. You know, if you listen to a whole season of one of my shows, that's, you know, uh, dozens of hours that you've given up of your life and, you know, unless you're listening to it at 1.5 speed like I do, but even then that's still time.
And, uh, that that's a wonderful, generous thing for them to choose to do, to spend their time with me to spend time with anyone is a generous thing. Right. And so, yeah, it means the world to me that people want to spend time with me. And it also means the world that they take the time to actually write to me, to give me feedback, to leave me voicemails, to say, I saw myself in your story, or I always thought things had to be this way.
And then you gave a model. Of life that could be different. And that really meant a lot to me. Or sometimes they call me out and they helped me see the world in a bigger, broader, smarter way than I was seeing it already. And I'm grateful for that too. Cause every time we get to learn something new is, you know, it can be painful, but it can also just, uh, be so enjoyable that, that brain stretching feeling of like, oh, it hurts, but it feels good.
My brain just got a little bit bigger and I just saw the world a little bit more, uh, with more complexity and a little bit more hopefully with kindness. So anytime I'll listen to it can help me with that. And, and that's, it's, I'm so glad you said that because, you know, as I said up and listening to you now for a couple of years, but in the last couple of days, I obviously did a deep dive to prepare for this conversation.
And there's one word. And tell me if you disagree, but there's one word that I associate with your work, and that is a vulnerable, you are an everything you do. You're open about it. You talk about it. I mean, from time to, you've been fired in the past that you've, you've been very open about, uh, to, to, to obviously we'll get into your self-help th that, that series, which is incredible, but, but about how that's affected your life, I mean, you live in a way that is very open and vulnerable with, with your audience and with your.
Yes. And I will just full disclosure say I went into things, not planning to do that because, uh, back in the olden days, I went from writing to journalism to being, um, a pop culture critic. My first podcast was for w NYC and I was a film critic there, and that was, oh gosh, 13, 14 years ago now. But you know, being a film critic doesn't really require me to be very vulnerable.
It just requires me to, uh, do a close reading of whatever I'm viewing that day and doing close reading informed by all of my understanding of society, politics, history, and so on is not the same as me. Crying on a microphone and talking about how much it hurts that, you know, I lost a job. It's a, it's a very different experience to admit when I've done something wrong, where I screwed up at work.
And the first thing I want to do is bury myself in the ground and, uh, or, you know, admitting things about myself that maybe people don't want to talk about. Normally like, uh, I have, you know, a fixation on this or a problem with that. And I was not used to doing that before, but I absolutely had to do that when I started hosting by the book because that's, you know, that's the kind of show by the book is the show needed that of me.
And sometimes our shows ask us to do certain things that we don't even plan on in the beginning, but you know, it demands it of. So we're getting into this a little bit later in the show that I normally do, but let's talk a little bit about you, your, your life, your story. Cause it's so important to understanding people and their work was this, you know, you said you wanted to be a writer and all that, but was there something about self-help that was particularly attracted view from a young age or, you know, what was it?
I think about your growth as a person that made this, something that was attractive to you? Oh, I will make it clear right here. And now self-help books are not attractive to me in the slightest. I am what would be called the resident self-help skeptic on by the book Jolanta. She likes self-help books.
She wants to believe their promises. She loves the idea that just following six steps can change her life. She loves that. And that was the original premise of the show that she really, in her own words felt like a fuck up a garbage person in her words. Uh, somebody who wasn't succeeding at adulting at working at marriage at anything in life.
And she really. It felt down on her herself and she wanted to live by these books and she invited me along cause she knew I was a critic and she thought, oh, this is somebody who is going to have a different perspective to bring to the table. And so we developed the show together and came up with, you know, um, ways to live by these books, a format for the show, living by books for two weeks and so on and, uh, developed the show together.
And originally it was just like, I'm going to be the critic and you're going to be the believer. But as the show went along again, the show just kind of demanded of both of us to be a little bit more of what the other was at various points. Like don't want to, did have to learn to be a much more critical reader with each of the books she did have to not just faithfully love the intention and ignore the racism.
For example, in a book. She had to learn to do that. And I had to learn to maybe be a little bit more open-minded about why does this book speak to so many people? What is it doing that might help others, even if it's not helping me. And so we both had to learn to be a little bit more like the other while still staying true to ourselves.
You know, I'm never going to be a Jolanta and she's never going to be a Christian. And that's a good thing because don't let, is beautiful and perfect and wonderful on her own. I don't need to be like her and vice versa, but, um, yeah, to answer your question. Just to circle back to that. No, I don't love self-help books.
I think a lot of them are problematic. I think a lot of them rely on the premise if I can do it, anyone can, but oftentimes the person writing those words, uh, is born on third base. So they're saying, you know what, if you're like me, you can also hit a home run if I can do it, anyone can, but it's like, maybe I didn't come with your generational wealth.
Maybe I'm not white. Maybe I'm not straight. Maybe I'm not male. Maybe I'm disabled. Maybe I don't have all the things going for me where I can just pull myself up by my so-called bootstraps because you can, your bootstraps are actually like, you know, Kanye west latest shoes that are $2,000 and I'm wearing like $4 flip flops here from Walgreens.
Uh, yes. And you're raising so many good points and we're going to circle around to some of this before we get that, though, for any listeners who may not know the premise of by the book, you know, how many books have you done at this point? I mean, you've been doing this for a long time. I know it's at least over 50.
Yes. Yes, it is. Once we lived by the rules of 50 books, we actually wrote a book called how to be fine. What we learned from living by the rules of 50 self-help books, which is kind of a memoir, just looking back on what worked for us, what didn't, what we wish more books would say that they don't. And, um, but then after that book came out, we've now lived several more seasons since then.
So, yeah. Um, gosh, we must be up to 70 or 80 or more books by. And, and, and you, you do each one for two weeks. Yes. So actually it's sort of, sort of an aside, you know, I imagine that some of these, you know, I'm thinking of things like, uh, the secret and other ones that were big, uh, cause, or, or, um, Marie Kondo, right?
I mean, these caused some really serious changes in your life. How does, how do, how does everyone else in your life feel about this every couple of weeks doing all right. All right. What are you doing this week? Oh gosh, my poor husband for the entirety of our marriage. I have been living by self-help books, a different one every two weeks, and I just got to hand it to him.
He is a loving and patient man. And for the most part. Can just laugh along and enjoy the books, but sometimes they are, and I don't want to overuse the word trauma here, but sometimes they are traumatic. You know, some of the books, I have a history of disordered eating. Some of the books have asked me to do things that really get me spiraling out of control, where I'm back in that old mindset where I'm starting to weigh myself 20, 30, 40 times a day, getting up in the middle of the night and.
So I don't want to, you know, I, I'm not a big believer in overusing words like toxic or trauma, but some of these books actually do that to me and the books that really, there are a lot of books that say, no matter what, it's all on you, um, you can choose to be upset by this or not. What did you do to bring this on yourself?
A lot of books say you brought this on yourself, the law of attraction, you know, maybe you got cancer because you put that energy out into the world and you deserve it. And those books can be very, very painful to live by, especially as a survivor of child abuse and, um, sexual assault and so on. And did I really ask for those things, do I deserve those things and books that try to hammer that point home for 300 pages straight can hurt quite a bit.
They can feel terrible. And even though intellectually, I know this is not true. This book is lying to me. It can still hurt to be exposed to thousands of words, telling me that. So then I have to add, I mean, it, it is so important I think to expose some of these, uh, awful beliefs, but I have to ask, you know, why, why keep doing it?
Why keep pushing forward? When as you, you have said, now yourself, you are causing yourself some trauma in the name of, you know, why you, why, why, why keep doing this? I do think that the self-help space needs conversations like this to happen. And honestly, I just don't feel like there are enough people who are actually.
Serving themselves up as Guinea pigs with self-help books, maybe they're reviewing books, maybe they're glossing over them and like, oh, that one thing spoke to me or gave a name for this thing I'm experiencing, but there just aren't enough people out there. Um, I can think of very few and most of them are copycats of our show of people who are down to the letter, living by every word in a book.
And I just want to make clear. We really are living by every book, down to the letter. We read every book with a fine tooth comb. As if we are writing a PhD thesis, we make spreadsheets. We make notations. Uh, anytime anyone says, no, you looked by the book wrong. The book never said that I can turn to page 1 37 second paragraph down third sentence and say, actually it says that right here.
And, uh, that's happened to us many times on the show where people write in and say, no, no, no, that was never in the book. And I will have all the notes that make clear. Yes. The book didn't say that. And maybe you interpreted that sentence differently than I did. Uh, but that's how I interpreted that one sentence.
Right? So I, I, I, okay. I love this, this train of thought here about the feedback I know from being a part of the community, that a lot of it is very positive. Uh, but, but what about some of those negative response? It's not just the people saying, oh, you didn't get it or you didn't get it. You know, we have authors reached out to you to say, you know, so let's talk about that.
What, what do you say when an author that you've correctly called out for some really problematic things in the book, you know, reaches out or, or says something on social media or whatever it is? Well, first of all, I'm really honored. I mean, it is so generous of them to take the time to listen to an episode of someone else's show too.
Take the time to write to us, to reach out to us, to, in some cases, interact with our listeners on our Facebook community, a number of authors have done this. The author of the body is not an apology. Sonya Renee Taylor did that. Uh, the author of, um, one of her first books we ever lived by America's cheapest family gets you right on the money, the economies, uh, family.
They reached out to us. Um, when we lived by burnout, uh, Emily Nagorski, she's one of the authors of that book. She reached out to us. So first and foremost, I'm just incredibly honored. And I know it's not easy listening to somebody criticize your book because a spoiler we never in the entire history of the show have given a 100% gold star to any book we've lived by.
We have always found problems in every single book, even the best ones. We'll find a few things here or there that are just like. This might be a problem. You know, this might be a little bit, uh abelist or this might be a little bit something. And so even the very, very best books we have found problems in.
And even in the trashiest books, we usually find some kernels of usefulness. Um, the fact that somebody is willing to sit through an episode of our show where we're not just giving it a glowing review, it's very generous. It means to me that they have a great deal of fortitude that not all of us have, not all of us want to hear somebody saying bad things about the thing we worked so hard on.
Um, and, um, sometimes, you know, we've even brought them on the show, but, uh, more often than not, we just let them interact with the listeners. Maybe read some of their comments on a followup episode and let them have their say, we, we don't. I want to, uh, engage with them in a way where it's just like back and forth, crashing back and forth trashing.
There may be one or two back and forth where there might be a question or clarification, but we do our best not to, you know, get into any fights about anything. And again, more than anything, we're just thankful that they want to engage. Stay out of the comment section. You heard it here from, so we want to talk more about the self-help industry and all of that.
But before we do, let's take a break. And before we go to the break, if you wouldn't mind shouting out where people can find you online, where they can listen to the show where they can buy the book, all the stuff you want them to know. Yes. So you can always find me on Twitter at Kristen Meinzer and you can find our podcast on Twitter at, by the book pod.
And if you want to listen to the show by the book is on pretty much any podcast platform. You can find apple, Spotify, Stitcher, pocket casts, anywhere you look there's by the book. So check out. Hi, I'm Susie singer Carter, and I'm the creator and cohost. That'd be award-winning podcast. Love conquers, alls have a podcast that takes a deep dive into all things.
Alzheimer's the good, the bad and everything in between my co-host John priest and I created love conquers. Alice is an extension of our Oscar qualified short, my mom and the girl, which started the amazing Valerie Harper in her final performance. Now in its fourth season, love conquer SOLs voted best podcast in 2020 by the new media film festival features the most renowned experts, enlightening authors, and inspirational stories from diverse caregivers of all ages all over the world.
If you've been diagnosed with Alzheimer's or dementia or love someone who has remembered that love is powerful, love is contagious and love conquers all you can listen to love conquers hauls on any of your favorite podcast platform. Find us on social media. Check the link in your show notes or search for Jay Schiffman and choose your struggle on any social media platform.
All right. So, so big picture question here that you are probably the most, uh, uh, well, you are, you're definitely the biggest expert in this arena I've ever had on the show. Why is self-help so popular and sort of a follow-up to that? Why is it getting more popular now? What is it about the time we're living in that is making a self-help even more attractive?
Yeah, well, America is built on the mythology of self determinism. We can be anything we want here, right? We can be born a popper and then become the founder of America's first bank system, like Alexander Hamilton. Right? Uh, I love that idea. It's not true for most of us, but the mythology is very enticing that we can be a self-made person here.
And I think that comes through loud and clear and self-help books, but I'd also say that self-help books fill in a real need that we have as a nation that does not provide proper healthcare, including mental healthcare for our citizens. For women and people of color in particular who are not always included and not considered the default.
When you look at medical studies, so much of what is a heart attack for most of human history has been based on what does a heart attack look like for white men? Not what does it look like in a woman or a person of color. Um, and that definitely extends to mental health as well. And so if we're not getting our needs met in those ways, it's not surprising to me that we are seeking out, help in a book.
And, um, we also, as a country that loves the whole idea of pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Why would we not try to help ourselves? Why would we not do that? So I totally understand the appeal of self-help books. And I also understand that for a lot of people, there is shame in seeking help from a therapist and, um, or there've been bad experiences with therapists.
And so what they want to do is maybe read a book by themselves and try to treat themselves, or maybe do it in secret because they feel some shame about some shortcoming. They feel they have, or some pain that they're going through. So I totally understand it. All of my criticisms of self-help books are not criticisms of the people who read them.
I just wanna make that. You made such an important point that I want to underscore and co-sign and, and support, which is that, you know, obviously this countries, uh, the norms quote unquote, is, is white men. Uh, you are not that. And so this industry is sometimes overtly and, and many times covertly not aimed at you.
And yet here you are trying to live by some of these rules that, uh, do not take you into account and do not factor you as, as a person, unfortunately, too often in, into, uh, their methodology. How is that reading this? And sometimes going, you kind of touched on this earlier, but going like, oh, very clearly.
You're not talking to me in this moment. Yeah. Yeah. It can be irritating. It can be, um, uh, a little bit painful if I feel like a book is really speaking to me and then suddenly something jumps out off the page. That's making clear. The book is not for me. It's for somebody who has never thought of people of color as anything other than other, um, a lot of authors in literature do this too, where they'll never describe anybody's race.
Like, oh, he was so tall and handsome, but then as soon as somebody comes along, who's not white. They'll be like, and then she was an Asian girl and her eyes were shaped like this and then this and this and this, or, oh, and then, you know, a man entered the bar with his cocoa butter skin, a deep African-American accent came out of his mouth self-help books.
Do that to all of, you know, American culture does that to some extent, because we, as a culture treat white and male as the default. So it's not just on self-help authors who do that, but it's a little bit more painful sometimes when self-help authors do that, because they are trying to help us with something that's.
You know, hope, uh, hurtful inside of ourselves and hurt some we're trying to fix and something that's making us, um, you know, vulnerable. If a book is trying to get us to look at the parts of ourselves that hurt and then drops that. It doesn't feel very good. So, yeah. So, so on that, cause you, you just kinda touched on a question I have here actually from, from my wife, um, you know, so many of these self-help books start with the acceptance of the idea that you are flawed, that you are, you, there's the one that I always think of this sort of my punchline in my own head about self-help it's like the, what's the, the wash your face, you stupid bitch or whatever, you know?
Yeah. Like what the hell, you know? And so my wife's question is which I love, why are so many of them starting with this idea that you are broken and are there any that start with the, Hey, you're doing good. You're, you're doing your best in this world. Here's how to make some improvements. Uh, why do you think that that most of them come from that place?
And are there any that actually you think are great that start with the, let's just, let's just see if we can make this a little bit. I totally agree with you and your wife there. Yeah. It's maddening. And yet I understand why so many books start from there because a lot of people, when they pick up a self-help book, it's because they do want to fix something.
They do feel broken. They're going through a rough time right now. Uh, I do, they'll take issue with so many of them, uh, starting off with that viewpoint of you're, you're just a, you know, a screw up and you need fixing and this and that one book I really liked actually, we've never lived by it on the show, but it's one of the only self-help books I've ever read and enjoyed.
It was called it's called a breakup because it's broken. And the whole premise of the book is you're fantastic. That, that, that relationship, that you're fixating on the guy that you're trying to text 35 times every day, the guy who, you know, you're looking on his social. Let it go. You are a beautiful, perfect creature.
You are wasting your time on this. You broke up because that relationship was broken. Your perfect here, let's get through this rough patch and remind you of how perfect you are. And that's the kind of self-help book that I think more people would benefit from. It's not saying you're broken, it's just saying you're going through a rough time right now.
You're a beautiful flower. You're unique snowflake. I love you. And here are some things to get through this rough patch and yeah, I agree. More books should be like that. That's a great recommendation. I, if anyone's listening who wants a more positive self-help book, it sounds like check that one out, but, but why do you think that, that, you know, sort of going back to your earlier point, that, you know, obviously we need better mental health care, especially for women, people of color in this country, but do you think then that starting from this place, that almost co-signs the things that, that little voice in our head are saying about ourselves is actually doing more harm overall than good with some of these self-help.
Oh, in many cases. Absolutely. Yes. I compare it to the diet industry because the diet industry really relies on, you know, here, we're going to fix all of your problems. You're going to be so happy. You're gonna lose a ton of weight. All you have to do is eat and behave in this completely restrictive, unrealistic way where you can't have a real life.
And then. After that completely restrictive, unrealistic way causes you to have a breakdown. Then you're going to gain all the way back and then you are going to need another diet book or another diet program or another food delivery service or whatever it is. And I just, I hate the diet industry and a lot of the self-help industry is the same thing.
Why doesn't the diet industry to say you're beautiful and perfect the way you are. And, uh, let's just talk about what your blood pressure is. Are you getting enough exercise? You know, something like that would be so much kinder, like, oh, are you getting enough vitamins and minerals every day? Let's talk about that.
Um, uh, or. Have a tormented relationship with food. Let's talk about how wonderful you are and how we want to get rid of this torment in your life so that your relationship with food can maybe be a little less painful. And maybe if we're lucky, maybe a little bit joyful, let's find a way to talk about things that way.
And the diet industry doesn't want to do that. No, they want you to get seduced by the quick fix and then be let down and then go out and buy more diet products. And yeah, I feel like the self-help industry is very similar. Yeah, I love that, that analogy. I love that connection. And another one that I read not long ago when I was looking for this article and I cannot find it, but they were connecting that the self-help industry to conspiracy theories in the sense that you're trying to control something that we in quiet to be quite honest, don't have a lot of control over.
And that's where a lot of conspiracy theories come from is that we see, we seek control in an uncontrollable world. It almost feels like it's 100% with the diet industry, but with, um, a lot of these self-help as well, it's, we're looking for control in a place that we are struggling to find it. Absolutely.
Yeah. And a lot of these books insist that you can control what's around you, but really. You know, let's be real here is making your dinners the night before going to bed earlier or not buying one of those lattes every week, actually going to change the structural inequality that causes you in the first place to not be able to afford college.
You know, maybe it's about a bigger issue that goes beyond whether or not you did meal planning the night before. Maybe it's just that the world is set up to fuck some people over and make certain people more powerful and rich. So then I guess the followup to that is, are there any books that, that, that you've read that, save that, and then say here's little ways that you can take a little bit of control while still acknowledging me.
And it's pretty stocked again.
I do like the books that actually tell us to stop navel gazing. I mean, there's nothing wrong with navel gazing, to a certain extent. I want to say here and now that a lot of us need to navel gaze. A lot of us need to take a moment to acknowledge I was victimized there. That thing was not my fault, or we need to give ourselves permission to mourn or be sad, or to not be in denial about this or that, or to take ownership over something that is really hurting us.
Like if I'm somebody who always reacts with defensiveness and anger and then attacks, maybe a book can help me with that. And maybe that's a good thing to examine, but. Is part of, you know, that defensiveness is, you know, part of any of those problems, really a bigger structural issue. And I love the books that acknowledge that.
So a girl's guide to joining the resistance is one book we lived by where we looked at those bigger structural issues. Is it you, or is it structural inequality? You know, is it, you know, your, uh, uh, productivity habits? Oh no, it's not my productivity habits. It's this bigger issue called racism, you know?
And so those kinds of books I've really enjoyed those, anything that encourages us to not just look inward, but look outward. Uh, I really loved one of the books we lived by also, it was not a perfect book, but there was a book that was called why good things happen to good people. And it was really about.
When you do good in the world, how it can lift up your spirits, how it can fix a lot of the things that are causing you pain in the first place, how it can help you to develop connections with others. Because a lot of what causes our pain is feeling alone in this world. But when we do good things, it helps us to remedy some of those things that hurt us.
So I have to ask you about one book in particular that for whatever reason, took the world by storm. And that was the secret. Uh, you've talked about this one a lot. Uh, it, it, for good reason, it was even people who don't read self-help books, decided the secret was for them. What was it about the secret that made it so successful?
Uh, one word. Oprah listeners can can see this. I just choked on my water. Oprah is such a huge part of the mythology of the secret. She showed that book on her show. Uh, she is a huge believer in it. She's the epitome of manifest as a verb. Um, uh, the book, uh, the, the whole point of the book is to try and convince readers that there is the scientific thing called the law of attraction, which quote unquote is as real as the law of gravity.
And according to the law of attraction, we only get back from the universe, what we put out into it. And it is a wonderful book for somebody like Oprah, who is a multi-billionaire. Somebody who has succeeded in every way, who is rich, famous, happy, beautiful, who has a wonderful relationship, a house hold full of dogs and friends.
She's got a great life. She has everything she wants. And for somebody on top, why would you not love the secret? The secret is essentially congratulating you and say, you earned this cause you put out the right energy. Of course, of course you earned this Oprah. And she really showed it on her show and I'm not trying to bad mouth Oprah.
I love Oprah and I, and I really genuinely believe that this book spoke to her and it made her feel better about her life. You know, she grew up very poor, very abused. She had an incredibly painful childhood, um, and to come out of that and become the household name that she is probably the most, you know, uh, you know, she's probably got more name recognition than pretty much, uh, any other American, right.
Everybody knows who Oprah is and. You know, why would you not love the secret? If the secret said you deserved it and you earned it. But, uh, it's not just Oprah. It's other celebrities. It reminds me of Scientology in a way, all these celebrities who are like, how did I become a billionaire? Right. I just manifested it.
And it's like, well, maybe you didn't, maybe it was something else that helped too. Maybe it was a combination of hard work. Good luck, connections that you cultivated. Um, uh, maybe it was being in the right place at the right time. Maybe it was living at the right point in history. Let's be real. If Oprah came up through the ranks in 1861, she never would be who she is now.
Sometimes it's just the point in history, right? Yeah, the secret is almost the opposite of, of privilege. And, and we are living in a, in a society now that is rightfully so forcing all of us to take a look in the mirror and accept our own privilege. And the secret was like, oh no, don't do that. No, no, no, no.
You earned everything that you got into your point earlier. You know, the person who was born two inches from home plate thinking they've hit a home run. No, no, no. You earned that. You worked hard. Uh, so, so from that to, to sort of the flip side question, uh, what was there, has there been any books you actually went, even if you didn't love the book you went, all right.
I could see myself following these steps in the future and continue to. Oh, yeah. So I mentioned when good things happen to good people. I still do some of the things that were mentioned in that book. Uh, there was a book called a simple act of gratitude and that book had a lot of imperfections too, but there were certain things in that book that I really enjoyed, like called one, one was called the glad game, which is essentially just you choose a partner and you just go back and forth and say like, you know what I'm really glad about today, Jay, I'm really glad that the light is coming through your window in a way that reminds me that there is life out there in the world.
And then you say something and then we just go back and forth and it's like, oh, I'm really glad I have this cup of coffee right here. And it's so hot cause I'm using this insulated mug. Um, so I really liked that in a simple act of gratitude. I really like any book that encourages me to go out there and do something good in the world.
And so, yeah, I mean even the worst books, almost all of them have at least a couple of nuggets of something good. So as I, as I mentioned the way in, you know, this is your sort of the, the, the series that everybody knows you from, but you've also done a couple of other, uh, and you've written multiple books.
And is this something that you continue to see yourself branching out in or, or, you know, I guess the, the easy way to ask this question is, is what is next for Kristin? Oh, well, I can't reveal all the secrets yet, but I will say this Jolanta and I are developing other shows right now. So there will be other shows in 2022, starring me and Joanne to other podcasts are on the way.
I can't say what they are yet, but we're really excited about these other shows and, uh, we've really put our heart into them. So I can say that I also have, you know, several other shows, uh, there's a show called movie therapy with referring Christian people write in with their life issues and we give a little bit of advice and then we prescribe a movie and a TV show to help them through whatever they're going through, whether it's a long distance relationship or being tired of COVID or, um, you know, breaking up with a partner or having a fight with your best friend.
So, uh, it's kind of a mix of advice show and watch list. And then I also host a show called. Um, the Royal report from Newsweek, and this is the second Royal show I posted. I also hosted a Royal show back when Megan and Harry recording, which was in the lead up to their wedding and it started with their engagement.
And then my co-host on that show when Megan met Harry, he and I went to the Royal wedding itself. And so, um, yeah, I do a lot of Royals coverage. I do a lot of movie coverage. I do a lot of pop culture and book coverage, and sometimes they all kind of mixed together under. Final question on that. Uh, because this was a really fun interview to listen to.
What was it like being on pop culture, happy hour. It sounded like that was a fun experience. It was so fun. In fact, uh, I think it was a year ago, reefer and I were invited on pop culture, happy hour to administer movie therapy to the NPR listeners. And it was so much fun that NPR has had me back. Pretty much every month since then.
So now it's like this regular gig every month I go on and I talk about a show or a movie, everything from like inventing Ana to, uh, reality shows they bring me on and it's so much fun to now be, uh, in the regular rotation on that show. It's so fun. That's awesome. Well, I could, I could listen to you talk about this stuff all day, especially the Royal.
That would be a fascinating experience to go to the Royal wedding, but I am conscious of your time. So before we get to the final questions that I always ask on this show, one more time. If you wouldn't mind shouting out where everybody can find you, where they can find the show, anything you want people to know?
Well, if you go to my website, Kristen, meinzer.com. Everything is there. Christian minds are.com has links to my books, to my 10 different podcasts. I host a lot of podcasts. Uh, it has links to all my appearances on other shows. Uh, Episode is up. I'll have a link there to this episode too. So it's all there@christianmindsor.com and the future, the future stuff that you, you hinted at, we'll be excited to check that out.
Oh yeah. Can you keep an ear open for those future things? We're really excited about them. So on this show, we always finished with the same two questions every time, the first of which is what are your self-care habits? What works for you? Okay. So my self care habits include TV, so I kid you not. Um, I, when reefer and I started hosting movie therapy, it wasn't just because we love movies or TV, but.
Uh, movies and TV sometimes help us to, uh, cope with a situation to see ourselves represented in the world, to see that we matter, but also just to cope with tough feelings. I don't know about you, but sometimes media induced, crying as the best crying that there is out there. Sometimes it's so much better than just sitting alone in the shower and crying, but to cry along with something and get those feelings out.
So TV and movies, you know, they also sometimes provide a very, very necessary escape or allow my brain to go on autopilot when I really need that to happen. Like when I watched, you know, a hundred hours of golden girls after my mom died, you know, sometimes we just need something like that. And so, uh, Is a form of self care that I will never talk down or diminish.
I know a lot of people like to bad mouth the TV, but it's helped me through a lot of things in life. So that's part of my self-care. Ah, I get it. There are a couple of go-tos. I have myself. That's. That's great. All right. The last question that we end with every time as we've now spent the last 40 minutes hearing why you're amazing.
Why would you be following everything you do, but this is your chance to shout out a couple other people. Who do you follow? Who should we be checking out? Oh my God. Should it be people or TV shows or movies or anything or anything? You want books, podcasts, movies, TV, anything. Okay. Well, I want to show it out a show called somebody somewhere on HBO, max, starring Bridget Everett.
And this is a show that. Uh, depict something you don't see very often in movies or TV it's it takes place in the 12th largest town in Kansas. It's very rural and it shows people that don't look like movie stars, just trying to live their lives. People who are maybe, you know, characters, not another show as people who are not cis-gender people who.
Don't necessarily fit the mold of like, what does a Christian look like in a small town? A Christian in a small town might look very different than, uh, you might imagine they might look, what does a person with addiction look like if they're also the wife of a farmer, um, and it can be very painful, but also very funny.
And so I highly recommend somebody somewhere. I want to shout out that show. Um, but also I just want to shout out dumb TV to anything that's stupid. It's fine to just laugh and escape. That's fine too. Not everything has to be smart, but if you want something smart that might touch your heart, somebody somewhere, if you want something stupid love is blind.
Great recommendations, Kristen, mind you. Thank you. Thank you for all of your, your warmth and your wisdom. Thank you for being here today. I've I've learned a lot and I'm sure my listeners will as. Thank you so much. This has been so great. She was just back for their second season. I'm so thankful to have bookshop.org as a partner.
When you buy a book on bookshop, you not only support this show, you can also select your favorite local bookstore to get some of the proceeds for me, I've chosen. Harriet's a black owned bookstore here in Philadelphia. So next time you need a book, or if you want to check out any of the books that we've profiled on this show, get a bookshop.org/shop+c Y S again, that's bookshop.org/shop/c Y S.
Check them out today. If you're liking the show, please consider leaving us a review. If you're listening on apple, you can leave a review right on your player for everybody else. Check out the link in the show notes. All right, we've come to the end of another episode of the choose your struggle podcast.
Thank you so much for tuning in. Thank you to Kristen. Meinzer. How great was she? How great was that conversation? Kristen? You are incredible. Thank you. Um, and thank you in advance for listing this on your website, as you promised to do in the, in the conversation. Thank you. Yeah, I really enjoyed talking to her.
You can hear, we had a lot of fun despite my cold and I learned a lot. I always learned something from every guest. I learned a lot from Kristin. Um, I'll say this actually, I'm not a big self-help book reader. Uh, you know, I remember when the secret came out, actually kind of a funny story. I was living in Arizona when the secret came out or right afterwards.
Uh that's when I was going through detox, living with my grandmother and all that. And my grandmother and my aunt, like everybody, I was around there got really into the secret. And this was also the same time. Uh, if you remember this, that the, that the, uh, sweat lodge. Um, the lawsuit was what are the data that would eventually be filed later.
But the actual desk that came from the sweat lodge incident in Arizona was happening while I was there. And, uh, you could see his area, his land from where I lived. Uh, so it was very famous. This, this was happening at that time. Uh, of course, very famously, uh, arrested development did a long joke on this.
Uh, if you remember that, Why this has to do with the secret. One of the main guys in the secret. In fact, the guy who was on Oprah was the quote unquote guru, um, that, that they, uh, was, was part of the secret. He was one of the guys in, in, in that book, uh, in very famously Wondery, uh, who does some good stuff on occasion, uh, wonder he did a show called guru about this incident, and they talk about the fact that he was in the secret.
Uh, actually a good show. If you liked that kind of thing, go check out guru. Um, I have no ties to it, so there's no, I don't even know the people, but, uh, it, it was enjoyable show I binged. Um, so yeah, really interesting, uh, lesson from her. They're both about why that, that idea of the, um, Uh, you know, law of attraction can be super problematic.
Uh, I had a conversation with a friend about this recently, you know, she is really into that and uses it in a really beautiful way. Um, so not to diminish that, but I do really appreciate Kristen's point that it, it, it sort of is allowed to be a cover for some really, uh, hurtful and harmful things. Um, so that was interesting.
I also loved her point that just like everything else in our world, uh, the self-help industry thinks of the white male are in many cases, the white female, uh middle-class upper-class as the quote unquote norm. And then you have people who are not that, which is most people, uh, are expected to be able to achieve the same things or have the same standard.
And, you know, especially when you are a person. Uh, who is not that at all as Kristen Meinzer beautifully said, um, it can be really hurtful and it can be really dismissive in diminishing. And, um, that was a really incredible point. So I just appreciate that so much from her. So thank you, Kristin. Thank you for a great.
All right today. I mentioned this last week that I have a new item that we're going to get some, some of the, the, the, uh, cards from, uh, it's not actually a card pack. This is the first time I'll be using something that is not a card pack. It is a book. Um, I think I have another book somewhere. I think I used it last season.
I don't know when I moved, it may have disappeared because everything else in this pile is all cards. Uh, but this is a book. It is called the little book of mindfulness, number two, peace life and calm the follow-up to the worldwide bestseller. Um, it's by Alison Davies. I got this, uh, somewhere. I don't remember.
I got this some work during, uh, the, the, the break between season two and season three. So I'm going to open to a random page, and this is going to be our card for this. Focus on yourself. Everyone needs to take some me time away from social media to recuperate and realign. This could be as simple as taking a few minutes to sit down and read a book, take a bath, or going for a walk in the fresh air.
Great one. Uh, so I actually just finished, um, the, the new book by Johann Hari called stolen focus. If you remember Johann Hari, he wrote probably my favorite book on drugs and addiction and drug use. Uh, and that was chasing the scream. Uh, it's one of my favorite books of all time and it was just incredible.
Uh, this is his newest, it's about, um, the way that our society is both unintentionally and intentionally trying to steal our ability to focus. And, uh, it wasn't as good. Um, now to be fair, I will say this obviously the, the, the subject matter is not nearly as of interest to me. So that was part of it. You know, I did the thing that I didn't like about this one, as much as that we're chasing the scream, there's three distinct storylines that he dove deep into this one, there was way more.
And so it was a little bit less, um, even in its depth, it was sort of like, uh, you know, level two level, two level, 10 level five there before, you know, it was like all over the place. Uh, but some of the points were really good. Um, and the, one of the ones, obviously that he focuses on, because if you're going to talk about focus and concentration, our phones and social media and all that have to be a part of the conversation, uh, but you know, not to spoil anything, he does two different answers to this, the short-term, which is, you know, what each of us can do every day.
And then obviously the long-term, which is going to need a lot more, uh, you know, sort of creating as he calls for a bit of a movement to try to hold, um, It companies accountable and all that kind of stuff. But, uh, he, he spends three months on, um, away from a social media away from the internet. And it was pretty incredible to read about that.
You know, he, he, he talks a lot about this sort of mental detox you go through when that's the case. And if that's of interest to you, I definitely recommend it. Um, I'll put it at the bookshop link in the show notes. So definitely check that out. Uh, I got it from the library, big shout out. Uh, this has nothing to do with anything, but I'm going to say it here in Philly.
Our mayor is screwing our libraries over the library near me was closed for months. Uh, they finally reopened and then they had to close again. You can pick up books, you can drop them off, but you can't browse or anything because they are understaffed because they're underfunded. Uh, that sucks. I'm a big supporter of the library.
I use it all the time. Uh, uh, America, uh, Kearney, I think that's your name? I don't know, uh, Philadelphia politician. If you hear this, please fund our library more and trash libraries and trash. Those are important. Anyway, check out stolen, focus by Johann Hari. If you want to buy it, check the bookshop link in the show notes.
All right, the good egg today. I swear. It's the last time I'm going to do this. I know it's the second week in a row, but I swear it's the last time you all know how important made it is to me. I've been working on this for so long, going on 10 months. And it finally drops a week from when you're hearing this, it will be out.
So please, that's your good egg, uh, go subscribe to the made it feed. When it episode one drops on this feed next week, download it, support it, listen to it, share it. Oh my God. Please share it. And please tag me if you want to, or don't I don't really care about that. I mean, it would be nice if I could.
Thank you. But the, the sharing it with people, send it to someone say, Hey, this sounds like something that you would enjoy. That goes so far. Uh, if you want to leave a review, please do that. That would be cool. All of the things just please support made it. It would mean so much to me. Uh, that's your good egg, but above all else?
No. Before I do that, I won't eat. You won't hear from me next week. I'm just dropping episode one. I've made it. So I'll see you in a couple of weeks. Thank you for staying tuned to choose your struggle. Thanks for coming with me on season three. It's great to have you all. I love you all. Uh, now without further ado, be vulnerable.
Show your empathy, spread your love and choose your struggle.