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Welcome to an aviation podcast that caters to all aviation enthusiasts, ranging from pilots to airplane spotters. Our show covers a wide range of topics, including private pilot training, airline operations, and the latest aviation news. Our knowledgeable host, an experienced airline pilot with eight years of flying under his belt, is thrilled to share his own experiences and offer valuable advice to help you pursue your aviation dreams. We are here to support you on your journey, constantly wishing you Tailwinds & Sunshine!
How's it going everyone? Welcome back to the show. This is the grand finale of a 3 part series with my friend, Patrick, who is an air traffic controller in Salt Lake, Salt Lake TRACON. If you haven't listened to part 1 or part 2, I highly encourage you to go listen to those so you can maintain some continuity. But to recap last episode, Patrick really showed his dedication and perseverance at becoming an air traffic controller.
Manny:He thought it was gonna go to Vegas and then he got snatched up by Hawaii. He thought he was gonna go control all those aircraft from the tower. All those beautiful views from the tower but then he got sent to hcf. Then, he got homesick. Right?
Manny:He missed his family so he ended up to my Instagram page and you can see and scroll down and see the coin that, Patrick gave me. Beautiful beautiful gift that he gave me. But in this episode, we continues at Granfinale. It's a little bit longer of an episode and he continues to explain to us how we go into the technicalities and how he goes and control aircraft and how they do it. The symphony or the orchestrated dance that pilots and air traffic controllers do to make sure that everyone gets home safe.
Manny:Once again, I thank you for being part of this community. It is constantly growing. We've gone from single digit listenership to now we've got in the 100 every single day. So I appreciate for passing that on. I'm not good at marketing.
Manny:I don't have any sponsors. So this is all you. If you have any suggestions of what you wanna listen to or what you want me to cover in this podcast, I appreciate that. Also, if you wanna be a friend of the show and wanna have a conversation with me and wanna appear on the show, go ahead and go to the show notes. The link is there so you can see my availability for interviews.
Manny:Anyways, enough chit chat for me. Let's get started.
Manny:Hey, folks from the flight deck. This is your captain speaking. Welcome to the Tailwinds and Sunshine podcast where we talk everything aviation. I am your host, Manny Ramirez. It's always a pleasure to have you on board.
Manny:So please sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.
Patrick:Like, there's nothing wrong. But when the weather comes in and you can't fly this, you know, the standard, star or fly out on the standard SID, it's like, as soon as you depart, they're asking for something different. That's where your ATC 101 straight down to vectors, altitude, speeds, all that becomes the most key component of what you do because everything is so automated now, and it's for obvious reasons. It's safe. Yeah.
Patrick:But when automation and that standard routing is no longer available, that's when the controller is actually doing the hardest work that is literally never recognized except by the pilot.
Manny:Yeah.
Patrick:The controller or the people sitting behind you are, like they're worried about the ride and the bumps, but they don't understand what it is that we are doing to better.
Manny:Yeah. And, you know, I think one of the, I'm thinking of as one scenario, speaking of experience and just the skill of a controller and just seeing the bigger picture, Chicago. Chicago doesn't have SIDs. It's just one. It's the O'Hare 7 departure, right, or whatever the iteration of the O'Hare 7.
Manny:So would you say that they have their work cut out for them in Chicago because everything is pretty much what they I mean, is a controller directed because there's no SIDs out of Chicago.
Patrick:Not necessarily. It's like you look at the volume of the traffic. You know? Like, there's they don't have terrain. Right?
Patrick:They they have a city with buildings, and so it's like it actually keeps things simple for the volume of traffic that they have.
Manny:Okay. But for
Patrick:us, it's like you look at the level of traffic. We're working Chicago numbers, but we're doing it at 11,012,000 feet. And then once we descend below 11,000 feet, our plan has to be perfect because you can't turn left. You can't turn right. The only way out of that or anything is if the pilot gets into a bad spot or if there's something that's, like, happened at the airport that shuts down a runway, the only way out is up.
Patrick:So you're doing a lot of, in a sense, like, preplanning, and then it's just straight knowledge and skill that puts the pilots in the line, and then it's us relying on you, you know, doing your job as the pilot and with you knowing how to fly your plane that makes our our job easier. Right? Because it's like when you're responding and you're doing the things you're supposed to be doing, and I can leave you in a sense and go take care of the other 3 aircraft I gotta go talk to or sometimes more than that. You know? It's like depending on what sector I'm working, I could have another 15, 20 planes I gotta go talk to.
Patrick:Yeah. And it's like I have the confidence based on it. It's like and it's weird because it's like I'm I'm having to listen to your voice, and your voice what's is kinda what tells me is the pilot comfortable with what I just asked for.
Manny:Okay.
Patrick:So if they answer in kind of a hesitation Yeah. Then it's like I'm not necessarily ready to go and do, like, 4 or 5 other planes before I have to come back. I might go do one more instruction to another plane and come back because my eye is more concerned. So you actually pick up on these tiny little things that you normally wouldn't think of. Yeah.
Patrick:And you you can hear it through voice because that's the only way I have to interact with you is my voice and your voice.
Manny:Mhmm. That's really that's really cool that you can pick up on those things on just to someone. Because I can see well, I I've gotten controllers give me something and I go and I kinda look at the I look over the captain and then when I reply, there's an inflection in my voice, like, is that what you meant to say? Or Yeah. We're we're really?
Manny:Well, we're I thought so. I was like, it's really it's really funny. You can pick up on those things that you, you know, you can't see it, but you can hear it. And, and back to Chicago, like I was telling you, I remember, we were coming in and we had, we're flying
Patrick:they were
Manny:landing west. And we're coming down in the left downwind for the west runways, and they had all this time, we had a heavy in front of us. We had a heavy triple 7. And we're coming to you know, they did the, triple 7, did the base, then the final, and we were following them, and they say, caution, wake turbulence triple 7. I'm like, okay.
Manny:We got it. Cool. And then there was a bird strike on the runway, so they send everyone around. So they send everyone around. So okay.
Manny:Cool. And then when we were going around, they swapped controllers. So the new controller actually placed us in front of the triple 7. And I go,
Patrick:I don't know if it
Manny:was if they knew because of the wake turbulence, so there was something else, but I appreciated that because now I no longer had to worry about the wake turbulence of the triple 7. So I'm like, it's just that's experience right there, and I think the controls, hey. Thanks for that because initially, the other controller just had us. And it I think I felt like he had enough distance where he we could have cut in front of the, the, turn base before the heavy, and I could have avoided that, but they didn't. And, and, but the second controller, once we did it, you know, we came back around, he actually did put us in front of the triple 7.
Manny:Well, so I was like, wow. That was really cool that that mitigates some risk on, you know, work turbulence because that that the wake turbulence is serious stuff.
Patrick:Oh, yeah.
Manny:So we want to avoid that. Very cool. Now we talked about communication and doing that. So in or having communication with other controllers because you guys pass on information. So, like, you start with en route.
Manny:Right? So they pass information to TRACON and then TRACON to tower. So, I know sometimes that I've spoken, you can hear it sometimes on frequency. Trachon is like, oh, I don't know what center's doing or center's like, oh, I don't know. Those guys are the ones that are signing the runways.
Manny:So is there I feel like the communication between set or or facilities is very important and sometimes there's they can be breakdowns. Right? Yep. Yeah. So we
Patrick:have There's definitely a lot of the, our communication is, like, between the facilities. So if I need to talk to the tower or I need to talk to the center, that's all done offline. So that's why, like, a lot of times you hear, like, hey. I was off the line. Like, say again.
Patrick:Yeah. That's where we're talking and we're coordinating because we have our standard, standard operating procedures. There's certain places where aircraft are supposed to arrive, altitudes, speeds, but we can coordinate around any of that if we need to where it's like it's weather or it's like, say, you have a medevac aircraft coming in and it's critical. You know, it's like, do you wanna delay the medevac aircraft to keep them via the standard operator procedure, or can I talk to the other controller, the 2 controllers that it will affect and say, hey? APRAQ, Medevac 3 8 1 hotel trolley direct to Salt Lake Airport descending to 14,000.
Patrick:And it's like, I'll look at it and be like, most of the time, it usually works out just fine. Sometimes we're gonna try to expedite. We'll give them another option where it's like, we'll look at it and be like, hey. You know, like, this is a direct Salt Lake. I know what you're trying to accomplish, but instead of trying to go through, like, a story, like, hey.
Patrick:I know what it is that you want, but I can't do that. I'll just immediately go to due to traffic, direct Fairfield, direct Salt Lake, 14,000 approved. Just so it's like we don't we avoid the conversation of back and forth, but we also get the pilot to the fast, like, quickest way to the airport that we can.
Manny:Yeah.
Patrick:But that takes them outside of the standard operator procedures, which could, in a sense delay something that is critical as somebody that needs medical attention. Or if you have, you know, emergencies where you have patient or passengers on board, you know, that have a medical situation that pops up or flares up. And it's like that's our probably our number one medical or emergency that we see pretty much daily is medical emergencies. But the days when there's other emergencies that happen, it's like we work together whether I'm talking from if I have to talk to another controller even in my own facility, I have a button that I just hit to call over to that controller, and I can instantly get in their ear and coordinate with what I need to and get the process going so that you as the pilot can keep flying your plane and you never experience any interruption or delay.
Manny:Right. Because
Patrick:of allows us to move.
Manny:We take that, pilots into, we take it for granted because we don't know. Because if you cannot coordinate that move, I'm guessing you would have to be like, hey, you're gonna have to delay that airplane. You're gonna have to give them vectors to somewhere else or you might have to put them in a hold because you can't communicate with the other controller. So, I've never experienced anything like that ever, and that's that is the testament to the efficiency of our controllers because we're just we go from point a to point b. I mean, the worst case that I've gotten is just delay vectors, which happens often.
Manny:Right? So they just kinda give you a little esters to kinda slow you down, or they take you off the arrival just so you can, you know, kinda meter aircraft into the airport, but I've never been like, hey, by the way, you're gonna have to turn the opposite way because we can't coordinate this right now. The only time I've seen that though is when, like, I think it happened, during COVID, when, you know, facilities were closed down because there was an outbreak or something. So they would close the facility, and, I think recently, Albuquerque Center shut down probably a few months ago, but I think there was a fire in the facility or something like that. Something happened to facility.
Manny:They had to shut it down. You could hear all the controllers just scrambling just to get people just rerouting people somewhere else outside of the aerospace. So it is a core. It is a well choreographed ballet what ATC does. And, if you're a pilot, make sure you take that into considerations and appreciate it because most of the time, you know, we don't experience any hiccups or anything.
Manny:It's just seamless seamless. You go from point a to point b, and you don't even know what happens and, you know, you know, all the calls they had to make, because sometimes even requesting higher. You know? Like, well, hold on. Let me coordinate because this that airplane is outside of my airspace.
Manny:I gotta coordinate with that other controller to make sure that I'm not gonna be putting another aircraft Yep. You know, and, within, you know, a 1000 feet of where they need to be. So it's a lot going behind the scenes. So it's it's really cool what they do, and, we never see it. So And they intended to keep it that way as far as, you know, because we we we don't wanna, you know, we don't wanna burden the pilots with all that stuff because we wanna just focus on flying the plane.
Manny:Right? So and it's, but, yes, amazing job what you guys do down there. Now is there, like, a specific incident that you remember that you're, like, this is a memorable experience, or learning, experience for you during your career? Like, a situation?
Patrick:There's I mean, there's a lot, to be honest. Every, like, every day is a is a learning opportunity. I think the worst thing you can ever do is certify as a controller and then be, like, I got it all. Like, I Yeah. No.
Patrick:I I know everything I can possibly know because, you know, it's like equipment changes, technological advancements happen, you know, procedures change. So it's like the way I, like, I teach my trainees is that the moment that you think that you know everything, the job will find a way to humble you. And it's like you respect the job, and as long as you show that respect, like, air traffic will give you the respect in return. So it's, like, to me, the the most dangerous thing anybody could do is to think that they know everything. Yeah.
Patrick:I mean, work is, like, automatic controllers. Like, they I mean, if you saw controllers talking to each other, like, everybody's, like, got the right answer type, you know, but it's I don't approach it from that. It's like, yeah, I I I know my my rules. I know my my regulations, but I also know that I'm like, things are always prone to change. And so one of the most unique experiences I had, I think I actually had it in the airways profile, and the one that always stood out to me was I was working in Honolulu, and it was back in the days of Continental.
Patrick:And so if Continental flew west of Honolulu, they were called Continental Micronesia. So their call sign was Air Mike, and they would go down towards they would do the the island hop, the, you know, the the milk run down to Guam. Mhmm. And so, continentally, we flew 767-400 on it. And so I remember being there, I was working sector 2, and it works everything west of Honolulu.
Patrick:You work down to Kauai, and then you do all the traffic to Asia. So, like, Japan, China, like, everywhere over there, Philippines, and then you work out towards Australia, New Zealand. But the Zera Mic came over, and I don't know. Like, I just, again, it's like you hear things in people's voices, and you can tell that there's something different, but the guy had this different tone that, I mean, I've worked this air mic flight returning to Honolulu, like, a ton of times, but it was just different, and I picked up on it. And, I mean, he obviously knew.
Patrick:He he gave me the information that they had a medical emergency on board. And so I was like, okay. It's a medical emergency. Like, gather the information, found out the gait, all this kind of stuff, but then I looked at it, and he just and so I asked him about the patient so I could relay relay that to the supervisor who then relay it to the medical personnel that were gonna be waiting. And he said that it was a small child.
Patrick:And so that's where it was like it totally just grabbed me. And I was like, I knew something was up. And they're just like, we need anything and everything we can to get direct into Honolulu and put wheels on the ground as fast as we possibly can. So we were in the very rare 2226 operation, which is it happens so rarely in Honolulu. We call it the conal winds.
Patrick:So it's just normally, you land or 8 left, 8 right. So 8 right's the reef runway. So that's always a departure on the of whatever we call it, the 4 and eights. So for where he's coming from, this air mic, flight 4 right is where I wanna put him because it's literally just straight. He didn't even have to, like, barely turn the plane.
Patrick:All he had to do was just fly straight to Honolulu and put the wheels down, and the gate he was at was literally just straight across 4 left, cross over 8 left, and into the gate. So I reached over to, the one of my friends that was working approach. His name is Rich Coppola. One of the you'll hear that it's like, I have so much respect for everybody. It's like, I'm gonna tell you every single person is, like, the coolest guy you'll ever know, but this guy is something special.
Patrick:But he, he landed up turning he and I were talking, and I explained to him, like, we got a child that's in very critical condition. And I'm being told that it's like they don't wanna take any delay because they just don't know if the child will make it. And it was something that was they were being transported to, Honolulu for treatment because in Guam, there wasn't enough. Yeah. And the flare up or the incident happened halfway in the flight, so you're past that point of no return.
Manny:Mhmm.
Patrick:And so we looked at it. We're opposite flow of the 2226. And so he and I worked together, and we flipped the airport around to 4 to the fours and eights and got them straight into 4 right and landed up getting word back very quickly that any other, like if it would have been even 5 minutes, the child probably wouldn't have
Manny:made it. Wow.
Patrick:And so it was like that was one that, like, stuck with me for a very, very long time.
Manny:So you guys had to literally switch the configuration of the airport just to accommodate this this aircraft?
Patrick:Yep. That's cool. We held we held aircraft on the ground. Without getting too into it, it's like we did get a little bit of a a scolding for for the change just because it does require some more intensive work, but we did what we did safely, and we did it because the situation deemed it necessary. Yeah.
Patrick:And it was just a short change just to accommodate the the arrival. And then after he was on the ground and clear so that we could just basically stop everybody, let him exit the runway, and get over to the gate, and they got the child off. The plane's so fast that it was just any other delay. Like, I just can't imagine. But I mean, it was kind of one of those things where you you leave to work that night and you're like, that's what this is all about.
Patrick:Yeah. You know? It wasn't bringing somebody over for a vacation. You know, it's it's exciting as that is for that family or that person. It's like you help save a life.
Manny:And how long had you been working at Honolulu before this happened?
Patrick:I had been certified for it was just under a year at that point.
Manny:Oh, wow. Okay.
Patrick:Yeah.
Manny:So that you you learn quick. Now is there something that you've, over the past, your career? Well, it's kind of a redundant I mean, it's kind of a moot question because, yes, you learn from all the stuff that you, that you experience. You know, you you get all that experience over the years. And I wanted to talk more about that as far as experience goes, and I'm gonna ask you a question about that in a little bit.
Manny:Yep. And now the, so the aviate you mentioned something about new technologies, and the aviation industry is constantly evolving. We know that.
Patrick:Yes.
Manny:And with emergent and emergent technologies and new procedures, do you guys have, like, a recurrent training every year just like pilots do? You guys have recurrent training you guys have to do?
Patrick:Yep. So, like, how you guys have CRM, and I I don't know if they changed that acronym yet or not. But, basically, we did we follow and see it with what you guys do. Do. You guys do kind of the crew resource management.
Patrick:Yeah. Are you looking at
Manny:my paper? Because, like, that's that's exactly what I had on my paper. I was gonna ask you about CRM, and you just brought it up perfect.
Patrick:Yep. So now we, we literally fall online. We have a lot of the same, like, videos that, like, airlines and stuff will go through, and, like, we kinda learn we try to learn as much as we can, like, from airline feedback. We open up we try to open up our our conference room to airlines and pilots to come in, and we've got Delta and SkyWest that'll come in and do, like we do a pilot controller briefing. We try to do it twice a year where it's like we can get, like, pilots and controllers in the same room that use Salt Lake heavily.
Patrick:Right? So there's questions that the pilots have about it. Like, hey. Why do you guys do this? And then we can ask, you know, like, hey.
Patrick:Why do you interpret it this way or, you know, just whatever. But it gets us face to face so that we can instead of sitting there thinking like, oh, like, dude, does no one understand, like, what these rules and procedures are? Whereas now it's like, we now can come together as to, like, hey. Now we have the common understanding as to what these rules and what these procedures are, how they're supposed to be done from both ends. Yeah.
Patrick:So that's, like, we're not left up to some interpretation. But we also do, like, winter refresher type training. So it's, like, after working, like, this summer, the summer's been amazingly beautiful. We're clear skies. We've had no inversion or, no, like, hardly any wildfires, so we're not dealing with any of that kind of stuff where we're Yeah.
Manny:That's nice.
Patrick:Like we're normally used to.
Manny:Yeah. So
Patrick:it's been just bluebird days with visual, like, airspace and approaches. It's just and it's very busy airspace when it's visual like that because we can just handle so much traffic. But when the weather clouds up and we get into the winter weather and the valleys sink into these IFR storms and you can't, you know, your IFR from 20,000 feet all the way to the ground. And, you know, that eliminates a lot of what can happen in the airspace, but there's also very structured, very strict rules under what we have to do to accommodate the approaches and keep things moving as efficiently as we can without compromising any safety whatsoever. Mhmm.
Patrick:So we do winter refresher to kinda give us a chance to go into the simulators just like how you guys would go into the sims and go, you know, your recurrence sim training will go into our simulators and run basically mimic winter weather problems. Like, hey. Like, they'll tell you, like, there's no visual airspace. Like, they they can't see the airports. Like, you're in, you know, you're running parallel simultaneous approaches to, you know, 3, 4 left, 3, 4 right, and you're gonna run the procedures that set that up.
Patrick:And that just gets you into the frame of mind. Okay? It's like you're not turning 10 miles south of the airport. You're 25 miles south of the airport for a base turn, and, you know, it's like a lot of the other rules that kind of visual is a very big tool to us in the summer, both pilots and controllers, because when you can see things, you can actually really efficiently get close safely to other aircraft. So it's like, hey.
Patrick:Like, you know what? I'm I'm getting this, like, sequence set, and the pilot sees them. It's like you can clear for a visual to follow. Right? Yeah.
Patrick:That kind of stuff. You're not gonna leave the pilot in a crazy overtake and do a visual to follow, but Sure. It it the pilot's helping you out.
Manny:Absolutely. So
Patrick:there's there's things like that that we can look up for, but then in the winter, those are and those storms and those weather, that's gone.
Manny:As far as technology goes, what's the one piece of technology that you cannot live without? Is there a software that helps you kind of automate some of your task or to kind of reduce your workload?
Patrick:We have, like, we call them TSDs, so the traffic situation displays. So I can see the traffic coming into Salt Lake over a 100 miles out, coming into that'll affect me. It's like, that's gonna be the the aircraft that I sequence or that I work. Mhmm.
Manny:And
Patrick:so I can look at that, and I'm already mentally starting to plan my sequence
Manny:Okay.
Patrick:Before you guys get anywhere near our airspace. So it's nice to have that. I also have ground radar. So it's a it's a feed off of the ASDX, which is a a ground radar that the the tower uses to keep track of aircraft movement, vehicle movements on the airfield. Yeah.
Patrick:Because that way, it's like as I'm if I'm working departures, I can look up there, and I can see how the departures are gonna come out to me. Like, where do this like, what are my route splits? You know? It's like, do I have 5 aircraft that are all on the same route that I'm gonna have to manage speeds? So that's like I can get them I can push them from 3 to over 5 miles to feed them to the center.
Patrick:So if I've got 6 aircraft lined up and none of them are on the same route, then it changes how I'm gonna work them out because I don't have to worry about the in trail separation anymore because their roots are all different. Yeah. So those kind of things are a big tool to us just because it gives us a chance to preplan in such a fast moving environment. Yeah. We don't have the luxury of time.
Patrick:So for us, like, if you we have to wait 3 seconds, it's like 3 years is what it feels like because it's just TRACON is just you've gotta go. Oh, yeah. Go. Oh, yeah. Versus, you know, any other so
Manny:Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I you can tell the difference and you go from center and you switch over to approach and you just hear is that the guy can barely catch his breath, you know, and it's just like they're just talking, talking, talking, and it's just amazing. And, sometimes when I I try to I mean, I don't know how how big of a difference it makes, but I can start once you fly enough in the National Express Air airspace system, you start picking up those controllers that are a little bit more experienced, so they're able to kind of I don't know. You just pick up the the good work they do, and you're like, wow.
Manny:That was amazing. You were able to push all these airplanes in such a short period of time, and it's just beautiful, beautifully choreographed. And you're just like, man, that was awesome. Good work, man. Like, that was awesome.
Manny:Yeah. Yeah. So I I like to I I I like to spot that stuff and just kinda let controllers know that we appreciate it.
Patrick:No. It's very like, that's one of the things that, like, I always try to encourage, pilots is that it's one of those things that it's kinda like, yeah, is it our job? Of course, it's our job. Like, that's what we've gotta do. We've gotta we're keeping Skye safe.
Patrick:Right? But, again, it's not any like, it's all part of the team concept still. Like, I will never take full responsibility as to like, Oh, that was because of me, or it's like, That was safe because of me. It was like, No, that was safe because of Like I don't ever internalize it as an I statement. Yeah.
Patrick:But when like we're busy and like we know we're like we're working our butts off then, you know, there's times where we're just, like, that's where I could talk about, like, you go home or you leave the building Yeah. And you're, like, man, like, I, like, I freaking nailed that. Like, the the planes were everywhere. The weather was everywhere. Yeah.
Patrick:But it was, like, I made that as seamless as it possibly could be, and no one else will know. Yeah. Like, the pilots will know. But, again, like, you're not gonna see the pilots afterwards. Right.
Manny:Right. Right. Are they are they high five are are there high five moments within the center? Like, you guys, like, man, that was awesome. You see that right there?
Manny:You guys show off to each other what you guys did?
Patrick:Not usually. Really? It's actually, like, it's a very it's it's a it's like a very, like, humble job sometimes. It's like, at least for hours. So I can only speak for hours.
Patrick:Like, there's moments, like, where, you know, it's like, we'll we'll try to I always try to do whatever I can to, like, if I see somebody that, like, worked their butt off, like, hey. Like, over there, like, that look awesome. Way to go. Yeah. You know, like, I think it's important, but, like, we joke around with each other a lot.
Patrick:So sometimes even, like, when it was, like, we were going through it, like, we were we were in the heat of the moment, we were working planes left and right, it usually comes out as more of, like, a a joke and the break room is like, man, like, you got your butt kicked. Like like, how does that feel? Like, was that a lab problem? Like, you know, type thing. Yeah.
Patrick:So it's like you knew people saw, and, like, they heard you. Right? Like, you're busy. You're loud. You're you're moving.
Patrick:But there's sometimes, like I say, like, you walk out of there and, like, controllers don't always get the the pat on the back or, you know, somebody that says, like, hey. Like, great job. It's like, so you're kinda left to your own will, like, your own, like, your own self awareness to be like, hey. Like, you gotta feed, like, in a sense, like, feed yourself the compliment. Yeah.
Patrick:But then you most likely won't do that because no one wants to, like, feed yourself the compliment. Right?
Manny:Yeah. So speaking of compliments, what's the, what's the best compliment you can give a controller when you're on frequency?
Patrick:Man, honestly, it's like when it does happen, like, it it's one of those things where it's it's so simple, but when I put like, for me, like, when I'm working a busy sequence and you can tell, like, I've been busy, and if I was like, hey. Like, I had just this week during, like, the storms, one of the pilots is like, awesome job tonight. Just something as simple as that. Mhmm. It was like, oh, like, they knew.
Patrick:Like, they got it. Like, it just kind of all of a sudden, it's like, sweet. Like, you kinda, like, sit up in your chair for a second. You're like Yeah. Okay.
Patrick:Like, somebody, like, understands. Yeah. Because it's like it's not something that you're gonna take home and try to explain to somebody that's not into aviation. Mhmm. And be like, hey.
Patrick:Like, listen to this. Like, sit down and let me explain to you. Yeah. You know, what 1800 Zulu to 1930 Zulu was like for me today. Like, they're not gonna
Manny:get it. First of all, what the hell are you talking about Zulu? What is this?
Patrick:I understand. Yeah. You just lose them. No one will understand.
Manny:No. That's something you that's something like yeah. Like, I I talk friends in the United Aviation, I can't explain it to them as far as, you know, sequencing or maintenance or pushing back on time or this MEL we had in the aircraft. I can't. You know, there's nothing you can you have to just, you know, the same.
Manny:But, you know, I think the more I fly, the more I start understanding of what a more seasoned controller looks like or sounds like and what they do with their work than other people that may be a little bit new. And I can tell right off the bat who the new ones are because you you'd hear a voice and then all of a sudden you hear someone click in and say, you know, they they they override the instruction that they give you. Yep. That's happened a couple times in Chicago recently. You know, you're coming in and you're like and you can tell.
Manny:I'm like, man, this is a this is a this is a mess. Like, you're just there's aircraft everywhere on the ground, and you're like, man, this this could be handled better. Like, this is the b team that came in and they handle this. You know? You can tell the difference when you have Yeah.
Manny:Someone who has experience. And speaking of
Patrick:you were experiencing there, that's a that's a trainee. Yeah. So that's, like, my job is, like, we used to we had at one point just before COVID hit, we had 25 trainees in our building. So, I mean, we were doubled up on trainees, like, per person. But it's hard when you sit behind a trainee because it's like, you know, like, for me, it's like, I know how to work the traffic.
Patrick:I can look up at all the tools that I have to give me everything that I'm already preplanning just because that's just the way that I work.
Manny:Mhmm.
Patrick:And then I know what I would do if I were sitting in front of the scope. But now it's like I have to let that new controller get the mental process, and I have to, at the same time, like, control mentally control where I would put things and how it's supposed to be done safely. And then but I have to allow the trainee to to talk and to make decisions. Sometimes they're not gonna be the best decision, but it's not doesn't mean that it's not safe. Right.
Patrick:It just means that it's just he's gonna make his work harder.
Manny:I can see you yourself just, like, biting your nails and trying to say something, but you gotta let these guys and gals make their own decisions and then learn from their mistakes. Because of lack of experience in our industry, just not even just pilots, but also air traffic controllers everywhere. You know, ramp agents, like I mentioned earlier, everyone is just that there's a lack of experience during COVID. We lost a lot of experience. We kind of, we have a lot of new hiring.
Manny:There's a lot of stuff that happens, and there's been a lot of close calls because of just lack of experience. And we have to be extra vigilant because safety margins are reduced in the absence of experience. Right? So we don't have that experience that we know. So we don't have the foresight of the bigger picture of that because our situational awareness just kinda shrinks down when we don't have experience.
Manny:You know, what is some advice you you usually give to, to, the trainees to mitigate the threat of inexperience?
Patrick:I just the thing is never be afraid to ask questions. It's like you can't, like, underestimate the value of asking questions because I'm gonna train a a a trainee for as long as I possibly can, and then there's a point where it's like, okay. Like, you know, we've gone through every single, you know, potential process. You know, we've simulated it in the lab. We've done you know, we've experienced it in real life, or maybe there's a scenario that lands up happening because it's like because of weather, weather changes everything.
Patrick:So if the weather all of a sudden decides that it's, you know, it's not gonna comply with like a standard arrival or departure, then it turns into, well, now you've got to use your ATC 101, but then at the same time, it's like if you've not experienced that or, like, you you don't quite understand, like, raise your hand, get the help that you need to get another controller to just come sit next to you to help you through, which we call a hand off or a d side. Then they can 2 controllers are sitting there working together to work the same problem, the same scope. One controller talking, 2 heads working together. And then, you know, it's like a supervisor could, you know, come sit with you. There's so many things that could happen, but if, inexperienced controller or, you know, it could even be like a pilot, like, something happens, and they don't necessarily have the the answer or just haven't had that experience yet.
Patrick:And they're too afraid to ask because it shows, like, a sign of, like, they're they're uncapable or that, like, they're not good enough. And it's like, that's the danger. Yeah. You cannot walk into it.
Manny:It's, it's ego. It's
Patrick:ego. Ego.
Manny:Right. What are the some of the hobbies that you that you like to get into?
Patrick:Skiing has always been a big thing for me. It's like
Manny:it's
Patrick:happened since I was a little kid, and then it's just kind of been, like, my my escape, like, my release rate from the world. And so I try to get up there as much as I can. We used to have we used to be able to get, like, an air crew pass. They they put air traffic controllers into an air crew pass for one of the local resorts. So a lot of us would go up there, like, before our shifts and stuff.
Patrick:So, like, you'd see controllers up skiing for a couple hours before work just because it's like we're trying to get as much skiing as we can. But it's great because, you know, generally, when we're going, it's like nobody else's because they're still at work or school, so you kinda get an empty mountain. Mountain. So that's always been fun. And then I picked up paddle boarding while I was in Hawaii.
Patrick:It was kind of long before paddle boarding kind of hit the mainland and learned to paddle up in Hale'iwa up on the North Shore. And so once I moved back, I ended up buying 2 paddle boards and like, I usually take those around, like, during the summer. And then, like, the other my thing is still travel. I love to travel.
Manny:Travel?
Patrick:So flying is like, I'm still the kid. I I get a window seat. My kid don't. Yeah. Yeah.
Patrick:It's like I'm I love it, and it's I love sharing it now because now it's like I see this segment like my kids have, and now it's like I kinda gotta pass that down.
Manny:Yeah. And obviously spotting. Right? So you take pictures. That's what your Instagram is all about.
Manny:So you do that. That's really cool. And, what do what camera do you use by the way? Do you have multiple cameras or you just have one that you use?
Patrick:No. I'm I'm no I'm no professional by any means. I tried I like to think that I know what I'm doing, but, I've got a Nikon. It's a d 35100, but, I've got several lenses. And then I've got a nice big lens for when I'm up on the, the tower catwalk.
Patrick:I've kind of termed that as, like, my perch. So that's where I usually go on the place.
Manny:Sounds professional to me. Yeah.
Patrick:So when you when you anybody flies into Salt Lake, it's like always look at the tower catwalk because I'm usually up there. And so the fun part about it has been being able to connect with pilots through it because I've been able to meet people and, gain friendships through this. And that to me is way more important than, like, any other side of it. Like, it's just opening the door to be like, hey. You know what?
Patrick:Like, what pilot doesn't want a picture of them doing something that they love? And, like
Manny:Exactly. And
Patrick:not even know about it until after the fact where I've caught retirement flights that no one's done. I've arranged for retirement things, and it's like, I don't know. That those are some of the days I I go home and, like, get some core memories out of these, but the friendships are Yeah. What are truly the best part of this this whole job.
Manny:I have one of my, my Ipads. I have the background image on my Ipads is a picture that Micah took of me.
Patrick:Micah is a very good dude. So he's he's actually one of, like, when I first started it, he and, his buddy Jackson, were 2 of the guys that reached out because they saw that I was a controller, and then that's where it's like I started to get more involved because it's like when I came up in aviation, I didn't have anybody except for you know, I was fortunate to have an air traffic controller in my neighborhood that I could kinda bounce questions off of, kinda figure out how to go, but I don't have anybody my age interested in aviation, and I didn't have anybody I could just, like, have fun with. They're like, hey. Like, you know what? Like, you love aviation.
Patrick:I love aviation. Like, you know, like, sometimes I feel like I I kinda wish I had something like that where, you know, like, I could go out the airport and get to know, like, more people. So I, like, kinda wanna try to make that, like, kind of my thing. It was, like, I wanted to be accessible if people had questions about air traffic or it's like, hey, you know what? Like, we're all doing spotting, and we all love it.
Patrick:We love every new planes. We're chasing the new liveries coming through. We're trying to catch the pilots and our friends as they fly through, and it's so cool. Sometimes I just sit back and I look at, like, our Utah spotters. I'm just like, these guys have incredible talent, and it's like I just enjoy watching what they do more than what I, like, post, but it's been fun to get to know that crew.
Patrick:But Micah has kind of been one of the the good buddies that is, I've gotten to know since I started doing, like, the whole Instagram account, and I kinda feel like those are the those are the the friendships that that mean a lot because you get to help inspire the next generation that's gonna take us, you know, from point a to point b, whether that be from a radar scope, a tower, or from left or right seat of a 737. You know? It's Yeah. The more inspiration, the better.
Manny:Yeah. It is. And it's nice to have people like, like yourself and Micah. And just the community, it's like it's it's really I've met some pretty cool people just on Instagram and stuff from their pictures. And, you know, I I'd like like yourself, I wanna make myself accessible with, you know, with a podcast, for example.
Manny:And if anyone wants to come online and talk about whatever they do in their respective fields in aviation, I wanna hear about it because there's people that wanna be, you know, I wanna make I wanna make this the the, industry more accessible to people that wanna do certain things. Like, if they wanna be an air traffic controller, how do you become an air traffic controller? Or if I wanna become a pilot, how do you become a pilot? Just the experiences for the general public that we can see. Stuff that they don't they they wouldn't know what happens if they wouldn't talk to you like we're talking now.
Manny:They wouldn't know about that. And now so last question. So what would you what advice would you give? What's, like, the biggest most helpful advice you would give someone that wants to become an air traffic controller, like, that you wish you knew when you were going through training?
Patrick:Thing is is just I think right now, it's like I'll kinda start it this way. It's gonna be, like, a long answer. But, like, right now, I feel like we have kind of this there's a lot of interest in piloting. We don't really see the interest in air traffic. It's just kind of not looked at as part of, like, the the a v I mean, everybody knows it's part of aviation, but there's just not as much interest in our side.
Patrick:But the thing is is it's such a rewarding job. It's an awesome job, but, like, it gives you the ability to the experiences I've had, you know, both in the facility and then, like, being a part of of, like, an airport community where it's like I get invited out on the airfield, and I get to go see things. And I've got I'm friends with our airport ops. One of my best friends is out on the field, and his name's Josh Chaney. And, like, literally all it took was my mom was flying to Australia by herself, and I just called over one day.
Patrick:I was like, hey, is there anybody that can come pick me up? Like, my mom's just she's flying by herself, and I just wanna go surprise her and just say goodbye to her before she leaves. And they just pick up, and they're just like, yep, we're headed over. Simple little things like that, the people you get to know, it's like the the job is more than just the job itself. Like the job is very rewarding, and it's the for me, imagining what it would be like to just be sitting in the left or right seat talking to the pilot or the, you know, the first officer that I'm talking to because it's like my love and my passion is just as much in that plane as it is on the ground.
Patrick:But I immerse myself in those friendships as much as I possibly can because it's like I get to know. And it's like if I get questions, it's like I know I can talk to you. I've got, my my buddy Derek that flies for Delta that he and I have been talking a lot about the Airbus 321 situations that we have in Salt Lake, but it's an awesome, awesome community and friendship that makes this job so worthwhile. And I don't think I was ever truly prepared for it, nor do I think I was ever like mentally thinking that way until I got to know those first pilots. It was like it was the core 4 of us.
Patrick:Everybody knew it. It was me and my friend Dave. We called the other one, his name's Teal, but we called him Canadian. And then we we got the Spaniard. That was the 4 of us, 3 guys flying from and then an HCF controller.
Patrick:And it was like we were just the guys hanging out on Oahu that just constantly were having fun. And that's literally what helped me change, like, my entire perspective of my job is that it was like I'm doing a job I love, but I'm actually getting so much more out of it than I ever expected because it's like I get to meet people, and it's like the Instagram thing. Yeah. It opens doors. You get to meet people, make new friends, and, like, just kind of watch each other, like, do awesome things.
Patrick:It's like, it can be a very negative world out there, and people wanna, like, you know, chop down this or that or say, you know, like, oh, you know, controllers, you know, they suck, they delay us, this kind of thing, or I'd rather be a pilot, you know, whatever it may be, but it's like at the end of the day, it's like we gotta have everybody. You know? Piloting controllers, mechanics, you know, gate agents, everybody. Like, this thing doesn't work one without the other. And it's like, so long as you understand that you're not the most important person in that system and that you're literally just you're just another key component and that your role is so important, but no more important than the other, and you just stay humble, the job will repay you in more ways than just paycheck.
Patrick:It's like, to me, I'm getting way more out of it than just a paycheck. I'm not in it for the paycheck. I mean,
Manny:it's nice. I mean, it's nice to get. I'm sure you guys get paid handsomely for what you do, especially with seniority, but it's it I think you have access to that or a better paying job because you love what you do. You know? It's, when you love what you do is just, you know, those those kinds of jobs are the ones that pretty much are very rewarding and somehow it ends up paying you, handsomely.
Manny:So, you know, don't chase the money. Chase what you love and eventually you'll make money out of it. Yeah. So don't do that. But
Patrick:You chase the money, it's like you'll never be happy. Happy. Yeah.
Manny:I know. Promise you. So, yeah, you can't do it. I mean, I see people chasing it and they're never happy because they want more and more and more and they just there's, like, these bottomless pits of just, wanting more, but, you know, you just gotta be happy with where you're you know, what you're doing. Hey, fellow aviation enthusiasts.
Manny:Before I let you go, I'd like to ask you for a huge favor. If you could please go to the platform where you're listening this podcast in and leave a review, some feedback, and some comments. I really do appreciate that. I wanna make the Tailwinds and Sunshine podcast your podcast. I also want to give a huge thanks to my friends and coworkers that have shared the podcast with their friends and family.
Manny:That means the world to me. I really appreciate your support and your subscriptions. If you wanna reach out to me, you can email me at mannythecfi@gmaildot com or you can message me directly on Instagram at climbvx. That's climbasinvictor, x-ray. You can reach me there with your suggestions or any feedback.
Manny:Once again, thank you for the bottom of my heart. I appreciate the support. And until next episode, I wish you tailwinds and sunshine. See you. The statements made on the show are my own opinion and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer.