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The most uncensored conversations about censorable things coming out from the much-censored country of Singapore. Hosted by Haresh & Terence from the comedy house Ministry of Funny.
00:00:00:03 - 00:00:32:18
Speaker 1
Do you know how Singapore uses feng shui in its skyline? Why do we release millions of mosquitoes across the island every week? The dark stories behind iconic tourist attractions like Hope Villa. You don't. Don't worry. That's exactly why I tell you. First is back for season two. I tell you first this our other podcast where we dive into the most random everyday topics from history, pop culture, science, and even the weird things you Google at 3 a.m. like how the rap song Why You So Like That changed Singapore's music scene forever.
00:00:32:24 - 00:00:58:20
Speaker 1
The best part is only one of us knows the details while the other is just vibing, guessing, and sometimes just embarrassing themselves. So you get to learn with us all with a good laugh. And what's special about season two? Guest episodes are now on video. That means you can watch us get schooled by our awesome guests like Luna, Kermit, Sing, radio DJ Rae, science educator, Bio Girl, MG, and many others.
00:00:58:20 - 00:01:19:10
Speaker 1
Oh, educational humiliation. All in glorious 4K. Want it fast? Head to the Millicent app and watch episodes of the moment they drop, or you can catch them one week later on the MediaCorp Entertainment YouTube channel. So do yourself a favor and use the link in the show notes or search for Tell You first on the Millicent app. Spotify or Apple Podcasts.
00:01:19:10 - 00:01:23:17
Speaker 1
And now onto the podcast.
00:01:23:19 - 00:01:26:13
Speaker 2
What's up everybody? Welcome to another.
00:01:26:13 - 00:01:27:19
Speaker 3
Episode of Yalla.
00:01:27:22 - 00:01:28:17
Speaker 1
Bubba, Bubba.
00:01:28:20 - 00:01:33:15
Speaker 3
Your thrice weekly podcast where we talk about the hottest news with a touch of what's good.
00:01:33:15 - 00:01:34:13
Speaker 1
Old humor.
00:01:34:14 - 00:01:45:09
Speaker 3
Good old humor, man. So today's a special episode. Yeah. I mean, it's been a while since G 2025. But you know, with Parliament back, in session, you know, exciting times.
00:01:45:09 - 00:01:56:19
Speaker 1
Again and I think, yeah, the speeches you know, a lot of them were very, very focused on AI and impeccable. Yeah. I felt I guess her speech was, quite a breath of fresh air during that whole period. That right? Yeah. Yeah.
00:01:56:21 - 00:02:07:06
Speaker 3
And also stuff about, you know, parenthood, having children, flexible work. So we'd like to welcome, Ellen Chung, current Workers Party and CNRp in Parliament. Welcome, Mylene.
00:02:07:10 - 00:02:09:11
Speaker 2
Thank you. Yeah.
00:02:09:13 - 00:02:13:22
Speaker 1
I mean, you're not new to podcast cos you've been doing your own podcast for Workers Party as well. It. Right.
00:02:14:00 - 00:02:15:15
Speaker 2
It's a grand total of two episodes.
00:02:15:15 - 00:02:17:17
Speaker 3
You're right. You're a veteran radio veteran.
00:02:17:22 - 00:02:18:23
Speaker 2
Thank you.
00:02:19:00 - 00:02:30:17
Speaker 1
But I mean that for you. Like interviews and the spotlight and all that in the last I mean, you're a, you know, almost a year, like coming up to a year, right. How's it been adjusting to that spotlight now?
00:02:30:19 - 00:02:55:10
Speaker 2
Well, I think it's it's been okay. I'm just glad that the spotlight is not consistent, like, constantly pointed at me right from time to time. Definitely more a little bit more doing the GE because people are curious about all the new candidates that emerged. Yeah. You know, seemingly out of nowhere right into the scene. Yeah. But after it's just been kind of acclimatizing to to seeing the things I want to see.
00:02:55:15 - 00:02:56:01
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:02:56:03 - 00:03:06:10
Speaker 3
But you don't feel like just by being in Parliament, you already are a public figure. You mean you don't you don't feel it on a day to day basis that everyone's watching you?
00:03:06:12 - 00:03:28:02
Speaker 2
Not really. Yeah. And I get a lot of questions about oh do people recognize you. And honestly not very much. I take the public transport every day when I go to work. Right. Like train and and bus and, and things like that. And then sometimes when people meet me they're like oh you look so familiar. But I think for them it's maybe like, oh, I think I look like an insurance agent, or I need like a bank room or something.
00:03:28:07 - 00:03:32:13
Speaker 2
Oh, I've seen your face somewhere, but not sure. Really? Yeah.
00:03:32:15 - 00:03:48:23
Speaker 1
That's, I think, downplaying it a little bit, Larry, because during the election, I think there was a lot of, attention on the new talent that was being brought in. But what I think really struck me during that period as well was, you know, quite a short runway that you had before and during, running for elections.
00:03:49:00 - 00:04:03:22
Speaker 1
Because I understand you joined Workers Party at the end of 2024 and, yeah, a few months later, you were running for elections. Like what? What exactly? Could you bring us back to? What precipitated you, entering politics?
00:04:03:24 - 00:04:24:11
Speaker 2
Wow. Okay, so if I start, I should. I think I should start with how I started volunteering the party, right? In December 2024. So that was about six months after I transitioned into my job in philanthropy. So 2024 was a big year for me because I moved home from Beijing to Singapore. I left my job at MFA in, and I kind of took like a six month career break to figure out what I'd do next.
00:04:24:15 - 00:04:46:06
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I think my role in philanthropy, first, I think I have much better work life balance in my new role. And I was always thinking about how I can kind of pitch in to the community around me. So I test that volunteering, with the WP, because I stay close to the BP ward, and also my grandma lives in WP world, so I was like, oh, I could, you know, volunteer.
00:04:46:08 - 00:04:57:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. How hear things on the ground. And also just a champion like can visit my, my grandma if I have time. Yeah. Yeah. So that was really what prompted the start. My husband was very encouraging. So I was like, go for it.
00:04:57:04 - 00:05:05:16
Speaker 3
But I mean, you said you took a six month break to figure out what you did, so philanthropy came up. But do you mean on your list of to do's was okay? Politics also one of them.
00:05:05:16 - 00:05:07:07
Speaker 1
Is running for election.
00:05:07:09 - 00:05:09:18
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, that's.
00:05:09:18 - 00:05:17:21
Speaker 3
Not the most common thing that people, you know, think about. It must have been occurring in your head or bubbling up even before the break.
00:05:17:23 - 00:05:36:19
Speaker 2
Not really. Okay, so politics was always a thing for me. I mean, I did study politics in school, right? So obviously, like since 18, I've been thinking about politics because I've been studying it. How it unfolds around the world, etc. but I didn't pointedly decided that, you know, I want it to be politically active, right? I just wanted to be active within the community.
00:05:36:21 - 00:05:55:05
Speaker 2
And then for me, that took the form of volunteering, with because it was a more manageable pace. Actually, my six month break, I volunteer with nonprofits in Singapore. Right. I volunteered at home, which is a shelter for domestic, workers. Yeah. And I was doing on a weekday. But after doing a full time job, it's very hard to to do that.
00:05:55:06 - 00:05:58:17
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. So I wanted a piece that I could, you know, better manage.
00:05:58:19 - 00:06:15:21
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I mean, just talking about that, I think you you were a scholar, right? And then you you went overseas to study, and you studied in both Beijing and Korea. Yes. And then subsequently, you worked as a civil servant in MFA for seven years. Right? Right. So almost like that sounds to me almost like the Singapore dream, right?
00:06:15:23 - 00:06:34:15
Speaker 1
You know, you're on the right track to, to become like the perfect Singaporean. Well, you did that perfect Singaporean that right. So entering politics as an opposition candidate and speaking up against the system that, you know, bred such success for you in your life, like what what was the thinking behind that?
00:06:34:17 - 00:06:51:15
Speaker 2
Well, it's such a loaded question. Okay. So I think the pathway, why I took a scholarship was really because I wanted to see the world right at 18. I don't know if you'll feel it, but going to school in Singapore, it's like, because Singapore is very small. Yeah. This is almost like with each level education you go into.
00:06:51:15 - 00:07:12:07
Speaker 2
Someone knows someone. Yeah. Right. So I was just like, curious what it's like to go studying a place where you can reinvent yourself. You can, you know, learn about different cultures, etc.. So I took a scholarship. Yeah. To do that because it was financially difficult for my parents to just send me abroad, but because I have a younger brother too, and you need to think about that.
00:07:12:09 - 00:07:33:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. But as to going from MFA and diving into politics, I feel like it's also because in my I spent all my 20s overseas, and I think you see how young people there, like I was in, in China and also in Korea, how young people engage with like, issues. Right. And the way they think about it and how we discuss it more openly.
00:07:33:22 - 00:08:02:09
Speaker 2
I think in the community health. But my interest in kind of exploring this issue is a bit more having an opinion, why politics and why opposition is because I feel like diversity breeds, robustness in solutions, right? You cannot always begin with the end in mind. Yeah. So to see what policymaking. Yeah. And, and I think, in a bureaucracy which I was a part of for seven years, bureaucracies are good for stability.
00:08:02:09 - 00:08:18:09
Speaker 2
All right. They're not really built for innovation. The whole idea is to be efficient and then keep going, and then you refine it on the edges. Yeah. Which is well and fine. But I think there are some things where you have to think about and or something that I thought about, which is we did all these amazing things that got us to 60.
00:08:18:14 - 00:08:32:15
Speaker 2
Right. But what got us here may not get us to where we want to be. And we don't even know where we want to be. It and I think it's time for by this time is ripe for conversation. Around where we want to be like that even amongst the two of us. Yeah. We might be thinking about different things.
00:08:32:15 - 00:08:33:18
Speaker 2
Yeah. Right. Yeah.
00:08:33:24 - 00:08:49:20
Speaker 1
I mean, the idea of like, being the Foreign Service and then, you seeing the how, you know, people discuss things overseas, but at the same time, it sounds to me like if you work in the Foreign Service and you see how other countries are like, you might also want way thinking that, you know, Singapore already has a very good like, right.
00:08:50:01 - 00:09:07:16
Speaker 1
When you think about what Singapore looks like now compared to a lot of other places in the world, there are a lot of people who say, you know, Singapore is not as bad as it seems. So how is it for you in those seven years in the Foreign Service, it became more of a actually, maybe I want to try and effect change in Singapore society.
00:09:07:17 - 00:09:27:21
Speaker 2
Right. I think it's also I, I agree that we've done really well and I have definitely benefited from the system that I set up, right, and to be afforded these opportunities. But I think we also don't think a lot about the cost of what it cost us to get here. What? Our parents gave up. Our grandparents gave up.
00:09:27:23 - 00:09:41:22
Speaker 2
And also the cost of maintaining this pace. Right. And I guess when I entered the workforce and became part of part of this whole, you know, on the treadmill, I started thinking about the cost that it took on, on myself. Yeah. So so that's kind of what prompted that.
00:09:41:24 - 00:09:46:24
Speaker 3
I mean, what was that cost? If you don't mind sharing.
00:09:47:01 - 00:10:17:01
Speaker 2
Cost in terms of, I think the, the wellbeing cost, right, of, of going at this pace to get to where we are that well to us in like one generation. Yeah. Might not have generations. Right. The fact that people feel cynical about the future, the fact that people feel tired or exhausted all the time, people kind of no longer have interests outside of work because it so was all consuming.
00:10:17:03 - 00:10:27:17
Speaker 2
Right. So I think you, you see that and you see that in, in friends and, and family and, and all of that. And you start to think about, you know, what if I had more time. So I think the time cost is.
00:10:27:19 - 00:10:42:24
Speaker 3
Wasn't something that you saw. Like different approaches to in your time in China and Korea because, I mean, you were working with the MFA, which means that you were in the MFA office, in that office in that country. Right. Which probably means you were working alongside Singaporeans,
00:10:43:01 - 00:10:46:01
Speaker 2
The embassy and the Singapore, but local stuff.
00:10:46:02 - 00:11:02:05
Speaker 3
Yeah, but was there anything you saw in those countries that made you think, oh, there's other ways of working because you mentioned as a student you saw that people are more civically engaged, more politically engaged in your working life. Was this something that also made you rethink how we do it?
00:11:02:07 - 00:11:22:06
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think my working, like in terms of being posted abroad, I think that definitely had a big impact because of my interactions with the Dip Corps in Beijing and the diplomatic corps. So all I did was go to my jog until I get home. Leaving. Think it's called the met just from other countries that were posted to be okay.
00:11:22:08 - 00:11:39:11
Speaker 2
So Beijing is one of the most diverse, I would say pools of diplomatic, start, diplomats just because of, you know, it's China. And so most countries that maybe don't have a presence in Singapore. Right. They're all there. Yeah. And in I was in the the portfolios that I covered in the diplomats I could interact with.
00:11:39:11 - 00:12:01:02
Speaker 2
I mean, they were far ranging what you had the fellow Asian diplomats. Yeah. All let, you know, Latin American diplomats, Pacific Islands, Middle East Europeans. But everyone has a very different approach to it. And in talking to them about different issues and just even getting to know them right, how they got there, and why you became a diplomat, then you realize that it's such a different story.
00:12:01:02 - 00:12:25:24
Speaker 2
Like, for instance, a lot of the Indian diplomats, professionals, they, former doctors, accountants, lawyers and engineers then decide to examine become, you know, a diplomat. Usually it's a second career, but then same for Americans, right? From the military, etc.. Some of the Europeans too. But for Singapore, I think the really interesting thing is most of us are like being a diplomat is like our first job, my first out of uni boom, like going to MFA and then I go on post.
00:12:26:01 - 00:12:46:23
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's not to say like one path is better another, but I think different perspectives and different. You're in a different season in life. Yeah, yeah. So when I interact with them, typically we are among the younger ones, especially for an office. Overseas posting. Yeah. And I think, yeah, being able to be exposed to that variety of perspectives without really, you know, traveling to different countries and all of that.
00:12:46:23 - 00:12:49:10
Speaker 2
Yeah. I think that's had a really big impact on me.
00:12:49:12 - 00:13:06:13
Speaker 1
You said the treadmill of working it. Right. But those countries that you spend a lot of time in China and Korea, I mean, China and 996 culture Korea, what culture is. Yeah. Is it is Singapore really like, you know, worse or as bad as those places in terms of like that treadmill culture?
00:13:06:15 - 00:13:28:16
Speaker 2
Maybe not in terms of like literal hours. Yeah, right. We do work 40, like on average about 44 hours a week in Singapore, not including unpaid overtime. Right. And most jobs don't pay over time. Yeah. So it's hard to see what the real number is. But I think it's the mindset. You see that similarity where you cannot disconnect from work even when you leave the office.
00:13:28:17 - 00:13:47:07
Speaker 2
It doesn't mean that you're left work right. Yeah. There's that quiet hum of like wasn't. And you follow up on waiting for a message or to update someone, etc. and all of that mental burden, it takes away from your capacity to be able to do other things, to fully be there when you're at home or you're not to like your friends, etc..
00:13:47:07 - 00:13:47:17
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:13:47:19 - 00:13:48:06
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.
00:13:48:08 - 00:13:59:02
Speaker 3
But then I mean like the time to disconnect all while you're lobbying for it, while you're advocating for it now, do you even have time to disconnect in your current life.
00:13:59:04 - 00:14:17:15
Speaker 2
Yes, I make it a point. So I think it's two way right. Yeah. You have to be aware about it and then you have to want to intentionally do it. Yeah. But also at the same time, that can be an enabling environment that allows you. Because I think oftentimes what we struggle, what I struggle a lot with was I feel guilty for wanting to disconnect.
00:14:17:17 - 00:14:34:04
Speaker 2
And I feel like then I'm not playing my part in the team like they're counting on me to, you know, keep an eye on this and then I just disconnect. Yeah. So you need that supportive environment to say that it's okay. We respect everybody's right to you know on the weekends to 48 hours. Just be family. And then you come back, you know Monday fresh.
00:14:34:05 - 00:14:52:15
Speaker 3
But then is there the inevitable tradeoff, of less productivity. And I ask that because I'm not saying that is wrong. I also do feel like growth at all costs. Not the best idea, but when you see that some downtime, are you also acknowledging that there will be a dip in some level of productivity? Potentially.
00:14:52:17 - 00:15:12:10
Speaker 2
Yeah, them. That may be a dip in some level productivity, right? Although I'm not sure how successful we have been in terms of trying to lift productivity over the years. That's another question, right. But also it's kind of if you have if you have competing priorities, then what do you want to prioritize. Right. And are we all agreed that we want to prioritize this.
00:15:12:12 - 00:15:17:20
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's a conversation that I feel like we should Singaporeans should be having together. Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:17:22 - 00:15:42:11
Speaker 1
And that's what I thought your speech was quite different from the thrust of all of the other speeches about either. Right, where you talked about time presence space. These things rarely come up when talking about AI though. Right. But when you think about the time. Right, I mean, for yourself, I mean, your, your, your days are probably packed to the brim more than like, even like ourselves.
00:15:42:11 - 00:15:58:21
Speaker 1
That right. You talk about you're being the youth wing, leader in running a podcast, CC or any podcast or these things, like, like how how is it possible to balance everything you do and also at the same time be, you know, talking about disconnecting for a weekend and all that?
00:15:58:23 - 00:16:18:08
Speaker 2
Well, it is I mean, you have to drop some balls, right? Or you juggle slower. So so that's definitely one. There's a reason why that we only have two episodes. One, but that's all. Let's talk about prioritizing. You know, very, very.
00:16:18:11 - 00:16:18:15
Speaker 3
Very.
00:16:18:16 - 00:16:37:14
Speaker 2
Diplomatically. Yeah. To be very frank. Right. And that's why we only have two podcasts. We started it because we wanted to have space to talk about it, but we realized that it takes a lot more time. Yeah. Then we had to guess. And so considering all these other competing priorities, that one had to take a little bit of a backseat for now until we figure out what's a better cadence.
00:16:37:16 - 00:16:44:22
Speaker 2
And we had to agree, because Andre also has a new baby at home. Right. That's about six. Who is about six months old. Yeah, yeah.
00:16:44:23 - 00:16:49:03
Speaker 1
But how do you feel about that when he tells you, oh, I can't do it for cosmos? I got to take care of my kids.
00:16:49:04 - 00:17:06:00
Speaker 2
It's not just him. Let me. Also, I'm just like, I was like, I got to walk my dog, and it's not the same. Yeah, right. But I think it's about being there for your family. And it's something like walking the dog is something I do with my husband together all the time to, like, check in with each other and connect us about each other's days and all.
00:17:06:00 - 00:17:21:09
Speaker 2
And I want to be there to do that. Yeah. So that's one example. And the other one is with the youth. Youth wing. Yeah. Well I think yeah, it's the cadence of how much we meet, how much we want to do. Yeah. Right. You have ambition and then you also have realistically. Yeah. This is how much you can do.
00:17:21:09 - 00:17:24:07
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. So there are tradeoffs. So so then what what.
00:17:24:08 - 00:17:48:02
Speaker 3
What guides your political beliefs. Because on one hand, you know, you talk about the supportive environment, right, to allow you to take time off. Do you think that maybe Singapore, everything that we have heard growing up. Yeah. Mon State, we got no natural resources. Our biggest resource is our people. Do you like, I mean, what gives you the conviction that Singapore actually can find a balance where we can be a global hub?
00:17:48:02 - 00:18:06:14
Speaker 3
We can be productive, have adequate downtime, be able to prioritize, as opposed to, like, okay, this is who we are, right? This is our purpose in the world, right? We cannot stop if you live here. It is a nonstop treadmill. Like. Like what? What gives you the conviction that, okay, everything you are lobbying for actually can happen?
00:18:06:16 - 00:18:22:01
Speaker 2
Well, I think easily that would be the Singapore exceptionalism, right? Six years we've proved ourselves to be otherwise. So why is it that when it comes to this, we are like no other countries and this will be cannot. Right. So isn't this very self-defeating to for a country that has always prided itself on doing the impossible. Yeah.
00:18:22:02 - 00:18:25:03
Speaker 2
So and if we don't try, we'll never get there.
00:18:25:05 - 00:18:41:07
Speaker 3
When did they realization come in? Because I see that. Because, I think I'm only maybe even doing this podcast. I also started feeling like we want to be number one in many things, and we are always comparing ourselves to others. But if you look at the history of Singapore 17, 1819, it felt we were trailblazing a lot more for sure.
00:18:41:07 - 00:18:41:16
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:18:41:19 - 00:18:47:11
Speaker 3
So when did that realization kick in for you to say, actually, why are we self-defeating?
00:18:47:13 - 00:19:06:09
Speaker 2
Well, when the inner I don't that I don't recall like a eureka moment an But I definitely think just when I was studying abroad and I talked about, you know, when you talk about you're from Singapore and people are like, Why Singapore? Right? All the things my classmates or friends knew about Singapore were all the positive things.
00:19:06:15 - 00:19:19:16
Speaker 2
Right. And, and but it's always the, you know, we always are. Yeah. Yes there is. But we always like say but but you know it's about reframing also. What about end. Yes. End. Right. Why is it always. Yes but okay but I know. Yeah yellow. Yellow as well.
00:19:19:18 - 00:19:21:01
Speaker 3
Because what exists right.
00:19:21:03 - 00:19:23:14
Speaker 2
What the hell. Yeah. Like in a.
00:19:23:16 - 00:19:25:02
Speaker 3
Very different class.
00:19:25:04 - 00:19:39:12
Speaker 2
Yeah. Podcast. Yeah. So I think it was just a time spent about and how people see us in such a positive light and believe that if there's one country in Asia we can do it. It's us. Yeah. So I wish we took a little bit more of that.
00:19:39:15 - 00:19:43:11
Speaker 3
You don't think we as a society feel that enough?
00:19:43:13 - 00:19:56:02
Speaker 2
Do we feel that enough? I wish you felt it more so. Yeah. I don't think it's enough right now. Yeah. For us, it's always about weighing the trade. All right, I committed this and I had to give up that. If you do this and I give up, then. Yeah. Yeah.
00:19:56:04 - 00:20:04:21
Speaker 1
I mean, speaking of trade offs, I think when you deliver your speech in Parliament, the, the news of our TFR dropping even lower hadn't even come out yet.
00:20:04:23 - 00:20:05:18
Speaker 2
That right? Yes.
00:20:05:19 - 00:20:12:07
Speaker 1
What was your immediate feelings when you saw that the TFR number, like, had plunged even further to 0.87.
00:20:12:09 - 00:20:13:11
Speaker 2
I wasn't surprised.
00:20:13:13 - 00:20:13:20
Speaker 1
You're not.
00:20:13:20 - 00:20:14:07
Speaker 2
Surprised I.
00:20:14:07 - 00:20:16:23
Speaker 3
Wasn't. You mean by that .97.87.
00:20:17:01 - 00:20:40:02
Speaker 2
I didn't know how much the drop was. Yeah, but I'm not surprised. I mean, if they told us that it held steady or it fell on the side, you know, just I mean, we are probably all in the same kind of age bracket, right? And just talking about you, I know we always. Yeah, well, I know millennials, you know, you're too kind.
00:20:40:06 - 00:21:03:23
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. But I think just talking like when you see the friends around you and what percentage are married. Right. And then what percentage has a committed partner I think but for different reasons are not married or who are single. And then of those who are married how many have children. It's not surprising. In my own circle of friends I feel like I can see this statistic being reflected.
00:21:04:00 - 00:21:04:11
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:21:04:17 - 00:21:09:09
Speaker 1
But then you sure Korea has been able to reverse its TFR numbers for.
00:21:09:11 - 00:21:10:15
Speaker 2
Years for the past two years.
00:21:10:18 - 00:21:15:00
Speaker 1
Does that shock you given that you spent time then you saw how people work as well?
00:21:15:02 - 00:21:29:22
Speaker 2
It surprised me a little bit, but I feel like then it shows that there is hope, right? In a culture where we think it's even, like you said, that, you know, overwork culture. And there's a phase in Korea. They always say, it's like my my classmates, you tell me it's got held to us. On how that's how they describe it.
00:21:29:22 - 00:21:36:09
Speaker 2
Like life in Korea. It's just like it's like it's just the the constant overwork, the the patriarchy, and and.
00:21:36:15 - 00:21:37:17
Speaker 3
It's an inferno.
00:21:37:19 - 00:21:43:03
Speaker 2
It's oh, I just want it.
00:21:43:05 - 00:21:44:10
Speaker 3
I do, I had.
00:21:44:12 - 00:21:44:24
Speaker 1
Fun, we.
00:21:44:24 - 00:22:02:04
Speaker 2
Go on the. Yeah. So if they could, if they did it right. Yeah. Why can't we do it too and do it better and faster. As you know, per the Singapore exceptionalism narrative that we like to, teach our children and also sell to others.
00:22:02:06 - 00:22:26:11
Speaker 1
So this was quite interesting because the you talk about Singapore exceptionalism, that's that that's, I guess something very positive that you took away from your time, at MFA and all that. Right. And, do you really feel when you talk to diplomats overseas last time, all that they really felt like Singapore was that special? Was that different from how, people in other countries operated?
00:22:26:13 - 00:22:46:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think definitely people helped us in how we got people hold us and how we got, and I have all the predecessors of mine to thank for flying the flag so high that when we step into this, you know, we have this, we we can step on the shoulders of, you know, what the, the foundations of what they've done.
00:22:46:11 - 00:22:51:16
Speaker 2
So yes, I definitely think that people, you know, think people hold us in high regard.
00:22:51:18 - 00:23:00:20
Speaker 3
What is a very different experience when we were studying abroad, broader type of people. I'm from Singapore. You're like, oh, how the Tamil Tigers. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that, I.
00:23:00:20 - 00:23:01:05
Speaker 1
Didn't I.
00:23:01:05 - 00:23:05:20
Speaker 3
Mean, maybe it's also because as much as you see, we are in the same age group, we.
00:23:05:20 - 00:23:06:22
Speaker 2
Went abroad now.
00:23:07:01 - 00:23:08:13
Speaker 3
Before your time.
00:23:08:15 - 00:23:08:17
Speaker 2
I.
00:23:08:17 - 00:23:10:18
Speaker 1
Just remember being at the bottom of the totem.
00:23:10:18 - 00:23:11:03
Speaker 2
Pole.
00:23:11:09 - 00:23:13:06
Speaker 1
When it came to dating preferences and all that.
00:23:13:06 - 00:23:17:19
Speaker 3
That one is not just because a Singaporean is a good personality.
00:23:17:19 - 00:23:19:16
Speaker 2
And which.
00:23:19:18 - 00:23:35:23
Speaker 3
Is good. But yeah, people used to think I'm like the current place where I was. I think maybe at that point in time, Singapore, or at least outside the diplomatic circles, Singapore was not a cool country. Yeah, I would still say Singapore, not the coolest country, but we have a bigger global footprint now.
00:23:36:00 - 00:23:54:24
Speaker 2
Yes. Yeah, but it's not about just like not, you know, about being cooler, I guess. But also, to be fair, you I think absolutely right this point about being in the diplomatic circle. Yeah. But more aware and more Singapore. Well, exactly. And some, some folks may have, you know, some of the posting here, Norfolk's observed here, etc..
00:23:54:24 - 00:23:56:13
Speaker 2
So for sure. But did it. Yeah.
00:23:56:13 - 00:24:12:20
Speaker 3
Did that shape your thinking in some way. Because I would say when I was abroad that that Singaporean identity, I mean, to be honest, I didn't feel like, well, if I say Singapore, people will stop me notice. Whereas if you say if I'm a country like, you know, you're from France or Jamaica, muted or exotic.
00:24:12:20 - 00:24:15:07
Speaker 2
Yeah. But in the diplomatic circles.
00:24:15:09 - 00:24:23:19
Speaker 3
Did your expectations of how people would react to you being Singaporean change or do you know that, okay, in the diplomatic circles, Singapore is up there alone, right?
00:24:23:19 - 00:24:42:08
Speaker 2
Right. I'm, I'm not sure how up very on the full totem pole. Right. But I would say that when I went on post to Beijing and when I, in my first six months interacting with my counterparts, I was surprised by how much goodwill there was for Singapore and how much they hold us, I mean, generally in how we got.
00:24:42:11 - 00:24:58:11
Speaker 2
But in terms of like our assessment, right? People see us as very measured, right, informed and always, you know, you always think before, we always think before we speak. And it's always very calculated. Right. So they appreciate all of these qualities. Yeah. And they value that. Yeah.
00:24:58:12 - 00:25:10:17
Speaker 3
And is it, is that also why you were kind of speaking about having, what international relations being part of the school curriculum, that you feel that it's important that we understand our place in the world?
00:25:10:19 - 00:25:29:12
Speaker 2
I think it's important to also understand people see us. Right. It's just kind of if you just want to break it down, it's a bit like in a social setting right. What I think of myself and how I think you perceive me will also determine how I, you know, behave. Yeah. And what I see etc.. Yeah. So I think it's important to help young people recognize that.
00:25:29:17 - 00:25:49:20
Speaker 2
But the reason why I made that, cut around, like, you know, the importance of building domestic consensus and understanding about Singapore's place in the world is also not just that we are doing well, but also that this place is this place in the world is not guaranteed, right? You're not guaranteed a seat at a table. You don't get a spot.
00:25:49:20 - 00:26:11:21
Speaker 2
And we've worked hard to get there. It's increasingly harder to maintain that with all that's going on in the world. And the more consensus there is at home gives our diplomat more of that strength, that to be able to go out there and represent and make you know and negotiate and give consent, because oftentimes in diplomacy, I would say that it's choosing.
00:26:11:21 - 00:26:17:10
Speaker 2
I say that my cut is choosing between imperfect options. Right. It's not just it's right and wrong. It's not black and white.
00:26:17:14 - 00:26:18:01
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:26:18:03 - 00:26:25:20
Speaker 2
And it's very hard to justify. You also need that trust to see that based on all that we know as a right now this is the best choice available to us. Yeah.
00:26:25:23 - 00:26:45:09
Speaker 3
And I mean we we've spoken a lot about diplomatic circles you know, but well what exactly does a diplomat do. I know there's a movie The Diplomat, but that probably has nothing to do with diplomatic diplomacy. When Bilahari came on before he gave us his own definition of, diplomacy or what a diplomat does, but. Well, what in your rule, what did you do, like, when interacting with other diplomats?
00:26:45:12 - 00:26:59:07
Speaker 2
So what do you think diplomats do? Non ambassador diplomats? Because I think for ambassador, people comment on ambassador, I wasn't an ambassador, right? I mean, behind every ambassador, there's a team of diplomats supporting him. Yeah. I mean, what do you think they do?
00:26:59:09 - 00:27:08:15
Speaker 3
Building relations and, that network where, you know, working together on agreements or like bilateral trade agreements and all that of.
00:27:08:17 - 00:27:09:08
Speaker 1
Just.
00:27:09:10 - 00:27:14:00
Speaker 3
Getting cheese and. Yeah, writing speeches for.
00:27:14:00 - 00:27:22:02
Speaker 1
For your, for the, your boss or whatnot. Right. You know, to. Yeah. To top that, when, conferences or when they're people, visiting diplomats.
00:27:22:06 - 00:27:25:12
Speaker 3
Yeah. She's probably looking at all. Yeah, yeah.
00:27:25:14 - 00:27:43:15
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's it's a mix of, of all of that. Right. Okay. Thank you for the saying the eating cheeses like later. You see that what comes up for most people, they're like, oh you dress up and then you wear tuxedo like yeah, right. And then people, people think about that. That is that is not part of. Yeah. People think about the, the glamorous yeah thing.
00:27:43:17 - 00:28:07:02
Speaker 2
Yeah. But I would say that what we do, it's okay. It's very hard to, to distill into one word. Right. Rojak. But I think it's a lot of like keeping our finger on the pulse of like what is happening, in the host country where we are based. And so sharing that to HQ so that that could be a more accurate assessment of, you know, when things develop, how are we going to be it.
00:28:07:04 - 00:28:18:07
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. So is that constant like you know, monitoring. And I mean of course in the recent situation in the Middle East, you saw that with their role in evacuating people and making sure that that can happen. So consular work is a big part.
00:28:18:09 - 00:28:19:03
Speaker 3
Of.
00:28:19:05 - 00:28:40:11
Speaker 2
What we do. Also, because Singaporeans travel so much nowadays to very exotic places. Yeah. Right. So they may sometimes need help. But and then other agencies that kind of building that relationship with our host countries so that like a friendship was not established just because two leaders shake hands. Right. It's also there needs to be that trust so that when we need to negotiate about difficult things.
00:28:40:11 - 00:28:47:14
Speaker 2
Yeah, that you tap on that reservoir. So we are there to build that reservoir, if I had to put it that way. Yeah.
00:28:47:16 - 00:29:12:01
Speaker 1
So, you know, I think just going back to what you were talking about in Parliament, right, about, space as well on spaces. Right. You brought a very interesting statistic that, like, Singaporeans spend $1.8 billion on tuition, which is more than 64, like 64%, up from ten years ago. Yeah, right. By the same time, we've been hearing a lot in other speeches in Parliament, other people we've interviewed about.
00:29:12:03 - 00:29:35:11
Speaker 1
It's a mindset issue of the parents. Right. And I think someone in Parliament even mentioned that they're very proud of the council and Kasih and everything that actually. Yeah. So it made me question. Yeah. Is it like even if they change the system we are so ingrained to compete. Right. So in green of Singapore exceptionalism that we are surrounded by danger and we need to compete and our lunch should be eaten.
00:29:35:16 - 00:29:48:10
Speaker 1
There's no such thing as free lunch. Is it? Do you really think that changing the system will necessarily, move things? Or are we just as a generation, stuck with this mindset of like, we always have to outcompete each other?
00:29:48:12 - 00:30:01:13
Speaker 2
Well, I think if you just refine the system, like, tweak it on, is it just. Right, so the mean philosophy doesn't change. You're still sorting people just in different forms. Just like when DSA emerge, instead of sorting by grace sorted by your sorting capability.
00:30:01:15 - 00:30:03:17
Speaker 1
This is the Derek school.
00:30:03:19 - 00:30:25:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. So when that happens then that's why in Parliament I think at this point she spoke to call it like the arms race. Right. DSA arms race, education arms race, etc.. So the fundamentals don't shift. Then whatever form it takes then of course will always be there, right? Will continue to, to spend money on not just tuition but also, during DSA portfolios, you know, this and that.
00:30:25:12 - 00:30:45:06
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. So what I think so that's why when I spoke about it, I thought it's is a rethinking of the why and not just the how. Yeah. If you just keep rethinking the how we go from t school, we all had discourse and that became a achievement levels. I don't know, by the time when your children go to peers if they're stupid, like, why, it would be right.
00:30:45:08 - 00:30:49:21
Speaker 2
Yeah. So it's hard to to shift.
00:30:49:23 - 00:30:50:12
Speaker 3
Without the.
00:30:50:12 - 00:30:51:22
Speaker 2
Mindset or something the way.
00:30:51:24 - 00:31:10:10
Speaker 3
Yeah. Are there any examples that maybe in your lifetime you've seen a mindset change that actually you feel? Because sometimes when I hear changing mindset, I mean, I would imagine like even if people say, okay, we all need to take meditation bricks, you know, they'll become my arms race. What are you meditate. How often do they. For hours I meditate five hours.
00:31:10:10 - 00:31:19:24
Speaker 3
You know, like, is everything in Humphreys or is this something in your lifetime? I mean, it could be political, nonpolitical, where you've seen, a mindset change happen.
00:31:20:01 - 00:31:27:06
Speaker 2
What? This is happening right now on the table, right? People thinking, not having kids and just. I can be happy without without them.
00:31:27:06 - 00:31:29:01
Speaker 3
Oh, that's true. True. Yeah. That is a good example.
00:31:29:01 - 00:31:32:19
Speaker 2
It's a shift. Yeah. And it's it looks like it's quite sticky.
00:31:32:23 - 00:31:41:24
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. And it's a shift towards something that. Yeah it's I mean for society because like I guess for our parents generation not having a kid you would really be the odd one out.
00:31:42:01 - 00:31:42:14
Speaker 2
Yes.
00:31:42:16 - 00:31:46:09
Speaker 3
Right. Yes. Whereas there is a mindset change in terms of what's acceptable.
00:31:46:11 - 00:31:47:03
Speaker 2
00:31:47:05 - 00:32:05:07
Speaker 1
Well I mean the, the thing that you mentioned is not abandoning the bell curve. Right. Yes. But it's just about not sorting them at such early age by the same time. I mean in some ways for us or like the, the pressure of having to, you know, study for the PSL year and do well because it's very important in the future.
00:32:05:09 - 00:32:20:05
Speaker 1
It pushed you to, you know, become a scholar, become a scholar before you, scholars. Right. And so in some ways, like, and then we talk about portfolio careers and everything in some way. Their school admission also forces you to become very good at a spot and,
00:32:20:07 - 00:32:22:15
Speaker 2
Are very well. Right. Yeah. So in.
00:32:22:15 - 00:32:37:19
Speaker 1
Some ways, isn't that, doesn't that pushing our children to, you know, think bigger than than the limitations now and or like, isn't it a kind of be set to be a good thing that we aspect we have such high expectations of our children.
00:32:37:21 - 00:32:57:19
Speaker 2
I think it's good to have expectations for excellence. Right. You want them to put in effort. You want them to, have grit come in in what they do and achieve it. But I think it's more of the end point, right? Just not I think, Terrence, what you mentioned about how, you know, how can I benefit that we kind of, then it's been through the system and and pushed us to become scholars.
00:32:57:19 - 00:33:16:20
Speaker 2
But I guess my question is, is this the best versions of. Is the scholar version the best version of ourselves? Right. Because we keep thinking about why don't we push our kids to be the best in the world. Yeah, but what a the reason, what prompted me to, to kind of draft my speech that way was also when I think about how about instead of that, how can I if I have a child, right?
00:33:16:20 - 00:33:27:10
Speaker 2
How can I, my child, become the best for the world, not just in the world? Right? And what is best for the world is very different than what is best in the world. Yeah.
00:33:27:11 - 00:33:32:01
Speaker 3
But in some way your scholarship informed you and made you the person who you are today.
00:33:32:03 - 00:33:33:02
Speaker 2
Yes. Right. Yeah.
00:33:33:03 - 00:33:44:14
Speaker 3
So I'm sure if you look at a company they gave me the scholarship to look like, look at this guy. Like you know we sponsor his education. What does he do. What is that experience ultimately for me to become a podcaster somehow, right.
00:33:44:14 - 00:33:58:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. I do think that, you know, it's a cumulative thing, right? All of our experiences shapers turn us into people that we were today. Yeah, but one thing I thought very hard about where actually, when I was in JC, I really want to go to culinary school. Oh, really? Yeah. I tell my mom, I want to go to CIA, right?
00:33:58:00 - 00:34:00:00
Speaker 2
I just was very into baking when I was in JC.
00:34:00:01 - 00:34:01:08
Speaker 1
Yes, in Culinary.
00:34:01:12 - 00:34:07:01
Speaker 2
Institute of America. Yeah. Essentially you lost that then just applied. I was like.
00:34:07:01 - 00:34:09:03
Speaker 1
Oh, I join the Foreign Service delegation.
00:34:09:09 - 00:34:31:01
Speaker 2
What what what a leap. Yeah, yeah. Culinary school. Yeah. But I thought about that. Right. But the, the and even when you talk to parents or grandparents right then they'll always be like oh, but if you can excel academically you should pick the academic route. Right. Those other options, be it crafts or etc. it's all all like backups or fallback.
00:34:31:04 - 00:34:50:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. Right. And I think it's time for that that shift if it's genuinely something you're interested in. Yeah. Right. So I sometimes I think about the person I could have been if I, you know, when you think about it sometimes. Right. And all the weight of all the lives that I'm not living. Right. Yeah.
00:34:50:10 - 00:34:53:17
Speaker 1
Chong culinary class was.
00:34:53:19 - 00:35:07:21
Speaker 2
Like oh you know you could I discovered. Yeah. This. Yeah. Oh maybe I would have gone to culinary school and decided that I really, it wasn't really for me. Right. So but how would I know if I never had the, you know room to make that choice. That's true. Yeah.
00:35:07:23 - 00:35:29:00
Speaker 1
So so does that also inform. I mean I think you also spoke about your the support for the arts ecosystem in Singapore. That right. News about. Yeah. Basically it's, our arts ecosystem. There's a lot of freelancers or small companies that are trying to survive in this ecosystem that like, what what do you speak?
00:35:29:00 - 00:35:34:23
Speaker 1
What do you spend time in the precious time Parliament speaking up for the small practitioners in the scene.
00:35:35:00 - 00:35:36:11
Speaker 3
The non essential the movie.
00:35:36:11 - 00:36:04:07
Speaker 2
Scene is a selfish reason because I am a avid theater for it. My interest is about speech. I say that I see it not as a practitioner but consumer. Yeah, right. I think going to like seeing like local theater and all that has helped, you know, give me perspectives and I wish I was more of it. But why I decided to spend my time in speaking about the arts because I, I feel like in today's day and age, especially in the digital age, we tend to focus on a lot of urgent things.
00:36:04:11 - 00:36:25:08
Speaker 2
They may be urgent and important, but there's another bucket of things that are not urgent, but still important because they shape how we are. Right? Indirectly or directly. But we also not talking about that. So when I was thinking about how I can allocate my cuts because we are each given 80 minutes. Right. And you can decide how to follow them, you can do a lot of 32nd cuts or do long ones.
00:36:25:10 - 00:36:38:07
Speaker 2
I wanted to also make sure that I spend and talk about something that I think may not be immediately urgent, but I think it's very important in terms of who we are as Singapore and our identity. Right, that we've been talking about so much. Yeah, yeah, but.
00:36:38:07 - 00:36:56:18
Speaker 3
But how do you I mean, I thought your speech was, grounded in a lot of things that I also believe in, but, do you feel like sometimes it's very difficult to convince people of that because the ROI. Right. For that right is very hard to quantify. And I mean, like, because, I mean, we've been in this business for a long time.
00:36:56:18 - 00:37:14:13
Speaker 3
And, you know, when you see things like, you know, arts being non-essential, deep down, I know that it has a I would like to think it has a net positive on society. But what would be your answer to someone's who says that? Okay. Yeah. In the middle of like multiple wars going around the world. Right. Singapore, like what you said, our position is not guaranteed.
00:37:14:15 - 00:37:24:03
Speaker 3
Why should we devote time to the arts? Why should we devote time to culture? Yes, it might shape who we are as a people, but is that really the most important? Cause I, you know, I is right?
00:37:24:03 - 00:37:24:12
Speaker 2
Right.
00:37:24:15 - 00:37:30:02
Speaker 3
Like, how do you how do you make your case? I know in Parliament you had a few minutes to make the case, but how else would you make your.
00:37:30:04 - 00:37:53:21
Speaker 2
How else would I make a case? I think arts is a very good medium to help us have different perspectives on it. You talk about all the wars that's going on. Conflict, right? Not everyone is equipped the right vocabulary to discuss these things, but the arts can present a perspective, be it from a refugee perspective or from, you know, a perspective of a decision maker in this conflict and how you do it, or just, you know, as a civilian, etc..
00:37:53:21 - 00:38:13:03
Speaker 2
I think it it's so beautiful in a way that it can allow for that form of expression. Right? That's one. And two, I think is also a way that we in some, some, some people consume arts. Right? It's a way that we process some of these things, like how you heal from all of these conflict and, and, and whatnot.
00:38:13:05 - 00:38:31:14
Speaker 2
Right. There's so much negative things in the world that are very urgent and important because they determine the environment that Singapore can thrive in. Yeah. But at the same time, you from all of these battles, like, how do you find resonance, but then how do you heal from from that? And how do you create a space for that conversation?
00:38:31:14 - 00:38:55:17
Speaker 2
Maybe it's very difficult to if we have two opposing perspectives around a conflict. Right. It's very typical. Sit at the same table. Yeah. To talk about it, but maybe through an artistic performance or interpretation and people watch it and they can understand. I may not be persuaded, but I see that different perspective. And I think about that. You can agree to disagree, but it's also about being able to hold all of these perspectives.
00:38:55:19 - 00:38:56:06
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:38:56:10 - 00:39:13:01
Speaker 1
But but in terms of the ecosystem for arts like I mean we're a very small population. Is it really possible for us to sustain so many theater performances, you know, local films and, and we'll do. Have you seen it. Yeah. Have you seen it elsewhere? I mean, like when we went to London we saw, okay, there is that big ecosystem, right.
00:39:13:02 - 00:39:22:19
Speaker 1
But in Singapore, I feel like there's only that many, performances everyone can attend and all that is it. Do you see that we can be more vibrant? View. Is that.
00:39:22:19 - 00:39:42:10
Speaker 2
Possible? Do I see that we can be more vibrant? What is. I'm not sure if I'm, like, very positioned to I don't I can't say that I know enough about the practitioners community to be able to answer that. Right. So that's hard to see. But I definitely see more room for us to express ourselves more creatively. Right. It's not the things I spoke about.
00:39:42:10 - 00:39:58:23
Speaker 2
One thing that I pushed for was kind of micro grants for very small projects. Yeah, right. They may not be your most like, they may not be the gala but level, you know, this kind of thing. But maybe it's like my this up the house thing is a little function of cameras and mice and all. But you still get to speak.
00:39:59:00 - 00:40:14:09
Speaker 2
But it might be a stepping stone to something else, but it there's no space for that to happen. Then it will only have to, you know, take a very specific structure like you order to come into existence. Yeah. So you never know what you are losing because it has never been born.
00:40:14:11 - 00:40:33:17
Speaker 3
And I mean, you know, speaking like one thing that, I've heard other people talk about, or at least you look at the, the Korean case study of soft power, you know, the Korean culture, Korean pop culture is now like global, right? Was there anything in your time in China and Korea who both have exported a lot of their culture?
00:40:33:20 - 00:40:50:10
Speaker 3
Yes. That you think also, there's a lot of benefit to that that isn't spoken about enough, because when when I think about what culture can Singapore export? I don't know, like I don't know whether we can actually be beneficial to the world, whether we can export. But is there anything that you saw in your experience, especially in the in those two countries?
00:40:50:12 - 00:40:51:17
Speaker 2
Why?
00:40:51:19 - 00:40:58:09
Speaker 3
And now like how it's really taken over the world, right. A Korean pop culture.
00:40:58:11 - 00:41:00:01
Speaker 2
The export of culture. Yeah.
00:41:00:04 - 00:41:17:10
Speaker 3
The because sometimes in even when we are thinking, okay, how can we convince those in power of the power of arts and culture? And I do believe soft power has its place, but it's hard to quantify, of course. Yeah. So I mean, given that you spend time in Korea and so and you were there like, I mean, yes.
00:41:17:11 - 00:41:17:19
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:41:17:22 - 00:41:36:16
Speaker 3
The Korean wave was really in progress, right? Like if you had to kind of, talk about how any impact that you've seen coming out of that, that, you know, you in the diplomatic circles. Yeah, like Korea has exported. I mean, South Korea has exported so much of their culture. Do you see any tangible thing that that for a layperson can, can help us.
00:41:36:16 - 00:42:02:15
Speaker 2
Understand intangible things? I would say, just to variety of people who choose to study there. Yeah, right. Or to go there to pursue the arts, etc. and just that being able to draw so much international folks when it's a fairly homogenous country and culture, is quite amazing. Like just how that export has drawn people in there.
00:42:02:17 - 00:42:26:08
Speaker 2
Right? And it may not be and I think it's a two way it's like a to a benefit. It's not just how it has managed to export it. Right. But also then when you draw these people, they're slowly but surely it also has kind of like a trickle down effect on Korean culture itself. Right. It forces them to I think for instance, like with more international students like studying there.
00:42:26:10 - 00:42:43:20
Speaker 2
And as soon as some interact, you know, just we were just chatting about like the whole social hierarchy and, and the way society is. Right. So open up people perspectives and oh, it could be different. Right. And then cause reverse like pressure on, oh, should we change it and should we look at it. We explore how look at how the people are doing it.
00:42:43:20 - 00:42:46:24
Speaker 2
So that could be the that benefit that.
00:42:47:01 - 00:43:15:05
Speaker 1
Yes, you. So another thing that you spoke about in Parliament recently was the loneliness. The basically the, you know, you've said I think there are some figures about like recently in surveys that the 1 in 10 Singaporeans or no close friends, basically, yes. Oh, they can't proclaim to have any close friends. Didn't that concept of like, Singaporeans not having space to meet others, all open spaces where they can be freely meet others?
00:43:15:07 - 00:43:20:10
Speaker 1
I mean, in Singapore, you know, there's barely enough space for for living there. Dealer. Right?
00:43:20:10 - 00:43:21:07
Speaker 2
Yes.
00:43:21:09 - 00:43:35:13
Speaker 1
Is it possible to really have many more, open spaces that spaces like that where, where, you know, students can congregate after work safely and do do you really see that in our landscape? It's a possibility in the future.
00:43:35:15 - 00:43:55:17
Speaker 2
Of course. I think it's, we can always use underutilized spaces. And I'm not the only one who spoke about it during the Suez. I think a few other and piece also did. So, but besides spaces, I also talked about unstructured spaces. I think all too often we like to program it. You get the idea for an activity for Skillsfuture workshop for this, for that right.
00:43:55:17 - 00:44:12:01
Speaker 2
But you do have a space to just be, you know, sometimes kids just want to know and, you know, chill and, you know, so what would be such a breather? What would be is. Right. But this like for instance, or your for instance in CCS, right. All these classrooms and activities rooms, they're not always classes every hour of the day.
00:44:12:01 - 00:44:26:24
Speaker 2
Yeah you can use but if you charge and you need a booking then it becomes very prohibitive for them to access it. Right. So that's one example of a new device space. So even like your resin, the I don't know like the urban centers or the arts that we see dance as always in use what. But so look at this.
00:44:26:24 - 00:44:45:17
Speaker 2
Our seniors have like the active aging centers, right. They can can go and be. But what do other students have besides school and and home and tuition centers? Yeah. To offer a space to to just be in the last time we were I mean I used to be like the my neighbors would just be running up and down the staircase shouting like, okay, let's go downstairs.
00:44:45:17 - 00:45:08:14
Speaker 2
Then we'll all, you know, just out there. So, you know, I don't see that happening very much. This less opportunities for organic encounters. Yeah. Who knows about the buffet. I thought okay. Yeah. But but I mean just, just for them to feel like I don't need to know every minute of my day needs to be very purposeful and functional.
00:45:08:16 - 00:45:19:20
Speaker 2
I think it's okay to have that downtime. Yeah. Yeah. To just think and breathe. But but I think it's good. And I think before we all had our own homes, we want to hang out with friends. Where do we go? That's true.
00:45:19:24 - 00:45:23:24
Speaker 1
It's really just we just hung out and had my tea. Everything. Yeah.
00:45:24:00 - 00:45:34:09
Speaker 3
Yeah. I remember the top floor of, Shaw, Shaw Towers, Aledo or the area where everybody's trailers watch trailers. Yeah. What's your list? You just sit there and you watch.
00:45:34:11 - 00:45:39:17
Speaker 2
But. But not so many of these spaces. Like, they're not open to public, right. Or someone from the security or. What are you doing?
00:45:39:19 - 00:45:41:08
Speaker 3
I'll become a bubble tea shop.
00:45:41:10 - 00:45:45:16
Speaker 2
Yeah. Correct. Or even just a sit and be.
00:45:45:18 - 00:45:50:03
Speaker 3
And even within Singapore, small geography, you believe that that's possible?
00:45:50:05 - 00:45:55:04
Speaker 2
I do think so. I think we just have to be intentional right about how we want to use spaces.
00:45:55:06 - 00:46:00:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean is it because I mean it's quite interesting. I saw your background. You grew up in Jurong.
00:46:00:13 - 00:46:01:00
Speaker 2
Yes.
00:46:01:03 - 00:46:10:19
Speaker 1
So that little space there and then, but then. No, you're in the company side of things and then you know a lot more people and all like any big differences between, the West and the East.
00:46:10:21 - 00:46:12:17
Speaker 3
You made your, you know, perilous journey.
00:46:12:23 - 00:46:28:03
Speaker 2
I think the, the Wild West is definitely true. It's really like like Lulu. Yeah. To get anywhere in town. Right. And even my schooling life, all my life, I think I went to school just in the West already. Yeah. My primary school is just two streets from where I live. And then my secondary school was in Jurong also by like site.
00:46:28:05 - 00:46:33:22
Speaker 2
Right. And just a few more stops to was Dover. And then that was far as I went.
00:46:33:24 - 00:46:36:09
Speaker 1
Well, so when you a place in that definition like wah.
00:46:36:09 - 00:46:39:15
Speaker 3
Oh yeah. I've never been there beautifies in my life.
00:46:39:17 - 00:46:45:14
Speaker 2
So funnily enough, my parents got their BTO in Tampines. So in the early years, the first five years of my life, I grew up there.
00:46:45:17 - 00:46:47:06
Speaker 1
Oh, so it's like a homecoming.
00:46:47:06 - 00:46:52:06
Speaker 2
I almost like to be very fair. I do have a lot memories of of that space, but yeah, but my own place.
00:46:52:08 - 00:46:54:14
Speaker 1
Of Tampines.
00:46:54:16 - 00:47:00:13
Speaker 2
Justifies technically is that I.
00:47:00:15 - 00:47:02:13
Speaker 3
I definitely.
00:47:02:15 - 00:47:04:14
Speaker 2
Must been. Yeah. Doing through and you.
00:47:04:16 - 00:47:19:02
Speaker 3
Know now I'm still in the east. I mean I still move up from Tampines. I was like, what actually temple is now I understand why all my friends used to complaining like you bro, your your house didn't fall out. But this is awesome. What? But it is. I mean, it's still a very nice town, but it is it is quite fun.
00:47:19:04 - 00:47:37:02
Speaker 2
It has all the neighborhood centers. Yeah, yeah, everything's exactly. So you don't really need to venture out. Yeah, but I lived in Jurong West extension. Yeah, there was, like, a neighborhood market. But even when you go out, like when I go with my mum and grandma to shop, during Chinese New Year, right. For seafood and and fresh foods and stuff.
00:47:37:02 - 00:47:49:00
Speaker 2
We will have to take a bus. I remember bus 99, although it was Jurong East to us, you side so that there's a bigger market that we can do like a wet market. Something like I see. Yeah. So it's still quite. It's not, as I would say.
00:47:49:02 - 00:47:51:06
Speaker 1
It was based on.
00:47:51:08 - 00:47:56:00
Speaker 3
Fourth, fifth.
00:47:56:02 - 00:48:28:11
Speaker 3
There's a so I mean, like, the philosophy of a side. I mean, it's clear if anyone listens your speeches, what you, what you campaign for. But I mean, if you could bring us back to, like, what it's like, being in the party, you know, in the party of WP, because you're always in the news. You've had a lot of, news over the past few months, but, I'm sure, like, you're you, speaking about what you believe, but how is, experience been being part of the party the whole few months since Parliament started?
00:48:28:13 - 00:48:45:18
Speaker 2
I'm very relieved to be part of a party because I think, to be fair, parliamentary, what can be quite overwhelming to someone who is new to it? Yeah, I also have that support and the people who have gone before you and be able to share that advice. Yeah, it's been a huge relief. And I think people that you can bounce ideas with.
00:48:45:18 - 00:49:00:12
Speaker 2
But I to make this policy proposal that is out there, you know, is it they woke or is it, you know, like what can so it's helpful to have people to bounce that around. And so I would say that we do that quite actively among the MP. And it's been a very supportive environment.
00:49:00:16 - 00:49:07:24
Speaker 3
And then anything about being in Parliament that surprised you because we've had people come on and say, like when they first started speaking, it wasn't what they imagined.
00:49:07:24 - 00:49:13:12
Speaker 2
Bill oh, and when they say that, it's because they thought it would be more like Chong, but it was less Chong that they thought was.
00:49:13:14 - 00:49:25:22
Speaker 3
No, one of them, they didn't think it would be that adversarial. A lot of the people get. Yeah. Did you feel that there been any, revelations or epiphanies that you felt like. Oh, okay. It it it is like this.
00:49:25:24 - 00:49:57:18
Speaker 2
What is very adversarial. I think that one is better for, you know, that Partizanship see. Right. You'll see you on both sides and do think that concept that level concepts adversarial. I will say that what surprised me about Parliament was how much things are not, how can I put it within our control? Right. So, for instance, we can file parliamentary questions five but they are sitting, you file it, but I cannot control whether one it will be answered during the question time because we are not the one who's sequence.
00:49:57:23 - 00:50:19:12
Speaker 2
Yeah, that and also two. I cannot guarantee whether be answered in its entirety or at all. Right. So that surprised me in that sense when especially we are brought up in a school system where, you know, it's say Q&A, there's this question how do I best answer. We must answer that at the door. Yeah, yeah. But you know, sometimes for different reasons.
00:50:19:14 - 00:50:23:20
Speaker 2
It is not answered in its entirety. Yeah.
00:50:23:22 - 00:50:40:23
Speaker 1
I do know do something about, you know, communication in Parliament. You always start with the Mandarin speech and now your Facebook profile. So initially I saw it was English but now it's also Mandarin first. Yes. English. Yes. Is that a very, a very deliberate reason they are doing that.
00:50:41:00 - 00:50:45:00
Speaker 2
What I whether why I use both men, you know, in English or why is that.
00:50:45:00 - 00:50:45:21
Speaker 1
Why why are you studying.
00:50:45:21 - 00:51:02:10
Speaker 2
Why is that okay? For the speaking part, it's quite straightforward. Get out of the way so I don't. Oh, I, I if I say they inverted like the recent budget speech, like the my Mandarin palace four minutes and then the English part was like 12 or 13 minutes. Yeah. So the English first, then like then I worried I will, you know trip up.
00:51:02:10 - 00:51:22:13
Speaker 2
So it's better to start with that. So there's a, a technical reason. Yeah. And then for my Facebook post, it's just my sense what I'm interacting with the post is that most of my audience tend to be more Mandarin speaking and also older, seniors, but and also on the ground, like the Chinese. And these uncles are like, tell me like, yeah, it's like almost on.
00:51:22:15 - 00:51:29:01
Speaker 2
Like, which one? Me are you? So it's like a jazz le, right? If you receive it better. Is something within my means to do it then. Okay. Yeah.
00:51:29:07 - 00:51:47:20
Speaker 3
But do you think that's because, like, during the release or in G 2025, your, your Mandarin speaking skills were very, powerful. Well, as, as well as the whole I mean, that was one thing that, I mean, I'm not a mandarin speaker, but I remember people say it actually, she's so fluent in Hokkien, Mandarin, English. Do you think that kind of books you in has like.
00:51:47:22 - 00:52:02:23
Speaker 2
Box me in? Yeah, I don't I don't feel boxed in by by that maybe. Yes. People have expectations that, you know, you can fluently express yourself in these languages. Yeah. But I see it as a plus. Yeah I don't you. Yeah. But don't buy it.
00:52:02:23 - 00:52:11:19
Speaker 1
I have to ask this question but online do talk about it. They say, oh you know because you are a Chinese speaker. So there's this Chinese fiction within the Workers Party.
00:52:11:21 - 00:52:14:07
Speaker 3
Someone spent time in China.
00:52:14:09 - 00:52:27:01
Speaker 1
That is a different from the more and more fiction it didn't. But, you know, is it really divide it to the extent where based on what how your expertise and the Chinese and all you have different interests.
00:52:27:03 - 00:52:48:00
Speaker 2
I guess my response to this would be not that I have experienced. Okay, okay. Yes. So yeah, but I get I, I guess depending on I don't, I don't know who that the person made a comment. Right. That kind of what is his his or her experience. Yeah. And with the party, whether there is even someone outside looking in.
00:52:48:02 - 00:52:48:12
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:52:48:12 - 00:52:53:11
Speaker 1
You know someone outside. Yeah. Who you know a commentator a political commentator.
00:52:53:11 - 00:52:56:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. I guess that's his job.
00:52:56:17 - 00:52:57:18
Speaker 1
Extrapolation.
00:52:57:20 - 00:53:01:21
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean the tea leaves. So yeah. So I'm not that I've experience I.
00:53:01:21 - 00:53:25:21
Speaker 3
Mean speaking about the dynamics within WP, I mean we you started off with like, you know, the previous leader of opposition, Pritam Singh having his title being removed. And you know, like how I know you can't speak on behalf of a party, but as a, as a new member of, WP being in parliament, how how did that affect you in any way?
00:53:25:23 - 00:53:42:03
Speaker 2
Okay. But before I respond. Yeah. To clarify, yeah, he is still the leader of opposition. Just a small l I guess I'll just be in office in Parliament. You know, we are the opposition in Parliament. Yeah, he's still our leader. Yeah. So to me, it's like the logical leap is, do you think.
00:53:42:06 - 00:53:55:02
Speaker 3
That perception is sometimes, like. I mean, what I sit. Yeah, like I can see, but that's how it's been being portrayed. You think there's something that people are missing? That he's still the leader of the opposition. He's just not maybe the the big like, you see.
00:53:55:03 - 00:54:11:18
Speaker 2
Yeah, I, I think so. I think some people are confused. But I think when they read about the removal of the title, they will I have heard people on the ground who are concerned about is is to an MP. So reassuring is always yes, he is still an elected member of Parliament, just no longer has that.
00:54:11:20 - 00:54:13:15
Speaker 1
So also people were asking you on he.
00:54:13:15 - 00:54:32:09
Speaker 2
Has had a few questions, but very, very few. I think some of their on the news but they still want clarity. Yeah. So but I, I think it's great that they are curious enough to engage. Right. To ask. Yeah. Yeah. But as you ask about how I feel. Yeah. About all of that happening, I don't think that has changed how that has not changed my why for going to politics.
00:54:32:15 - 00:54:51:13
Speaker 2
Right? I definitely did not expect it to be easy going to opposition politics. And I still am in it because there are things I want to see that things I hear that I feel should be reflected. Yeah. And so that hasn't really changed. Changed. Okay. Me.
00:54:51:15 - 00:54:58:23
Speaker 1
But mostly you being an opposition politician, I saw that you and some of your WP colleagues, your win for the SG 60 Hot and Sweet exhibition, right?
00:54:58:24 - 00:54:59:19
Speaker 2
Yes we did.
00:54:59:20 - 00:55:05:24
Speaker 1
And like your main content then or and then your think, you know, I think, National Library and and.
00:55:06:02 - 00:55:08:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
00:55:08:02 - 00:55:26:08
Speaker 1
Has it been, do you feel that you're treated differently as opposition politician when you go for official events like that and civil servants or people working in GLC, they see you that. Do you feel there is opposition MP or treated different from if you were a PAP contingent going to the exhibition?
00:55:26:10 - 00:55:31:06
Speaker 2
Okay, I guess I cannot speak to that because I have never been part of a party.
00:55:31:08 - 00:55:32:24
Speaker 1
But you never felt so.
00:55:33:00 - 00:55:48:02
Speaker 2
But I don't feel like in the sense that okay, why we went to 60 was also because the team at Nhlbi wrote to us, to all the MPs actually to see that, hey, there's this exhibition that came out, we would love it if you brought your constituents right to go. Yeah. So I just responded and say, hey, can I bring my young folks?
00:55:48:08 - 00:56:05:09
Speaker 2
So I think it'll be a nice experience, to go through. And then we can we unpacked it. Versatile after that. Yeah. Yeah. And they were very game about it. They were very welcoming. Yeah. So I don't feel that I did not feel like differential treatment. I mean this I guess maybe if you got better treatment but we don't know, you know I don't know.
00:56:05:10 - 00:56:05:16
Speaker 2
Right.
00:56:05:16 - 00:56:06:22
Speaker 1
Speculation. Yeah.
00:56:06:24 - 00:56:09:01
Speaker 3
You got to speak to your future self also indirectly.
00:56:09:05 - 00:56:09:12
Speaker 1
Yes.
00:56:09:18 - 00:56:13:22
Speaker 2
Oh I yes I did, I did. Yeah yeah yeah.
00:56:13:24 - 00:56:34:06
Speaker 1
I there was only I used in the exhibition there right. Yes. And I mean you know a lot of what you spoke about in Parliament was about you know, in fact, I would say maybe not the most positive about the future with AI and all that. Right. So how did how did it feel seeing that, you know, in an exhibition.
00:56:34:08 - 00:56:53:13
Speaker 2
I think it shows you how I can really create a very different kind of immersive experience, right, to showcase that. So I'm not saying like it's all a downer. Right. But you should be like, I don't know, cautiously optimistic or be aware of of that because I feel like we've been down this path before with technology. Right? When, when, when the smartphones came about and, you know, whatever.
00:56:53:13 - 00:57:11:07
Speaker 2
In the digital age, people only made working so much more efficient and convenient and all of that. But then 15 years later, look at us. We are, you know, like this barrage. You cannot turn on, you cannot disconnect because of all of that. It has. We when it arrived, there was much anticipation about how it could totally, you know, change the way we work.
00:57:11:13 - 00:57:24:15
Speaker 2
But then it didn't. It just intensified it. So it's not new. Yeah, but it's the we've experienced this one time already. So now that it's happening again, how can you do better to make sure we come out ahead of to make sure that it serves us.
00:57:24:17 - 00:57:28:23
Speaker 3
So when it comes to I, would you say you're more cautious or more optimistic.
00:57:29:00 - 00:57:48:04
Speaker 2
I was it cautiously optimistic. Yeah. Because it's something that I, I would say that I, I would. Right. I like it at work. So thinking partner. Right. It's like a little, it's like a almost like a intern that I have that I can assign it some like tasks to do like some basic research. And then I go through it.
00:57:48:06 - 00:57:51:07
Speaker 2
Etc.. Yeah. As a sounding board. Yeah.
00:57:51:09 - 00:58:15:05
Speaker 3
So but, but still cautiously optimistic like late term for you. Like would you say a more cautious or more cautious. Yeah I would say I'm more cautious also. Oh and I mean I like tinkering with this kind of but cautious. I mean just in terms of how people are talking about it. Like you, when you look at all the AI companies, there's only one company that seems to have some sort of a spine when it comes to pushing back and dropping.
00:58:15:06 - 00:58:15:12
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:58:15:13 - 00:58:27:22
Speaker 3
And, and like, yeah, I think when people like, who might not be using it much themselves and they look at the overall picture. Yeah, it paints a glorious picture. But like what you said, there's always there's always a darker side to it.
00:58:27:24 - 00:58:28:13
Speaker 2
Of course.
00:58:28:13 - 00:58:40:09
Speaker 3
Yeah. There's always. So do you think there's enough attention being paid to that darker side in the parliamentary debates in the whatever, initiatives are being undertaken.
00:58:40:11 - 00:58:55:22
Speaker 2
I think there can be more. Yeah. For sure. And I think we need to recognize that there's also a cost to learning how to use it to adapt it to all of that, that we, there's impose on people. Right. If they had to learn how to use it and we should talk more about that. Yeah.
00:58:55:22 - 00:59:00:09
Speaker 2
And not just all the benefits that it can bring you etc. etc. etc.. Yeah.
00:59:00:11 - 00:59:08:17
Speaker 1
Question. Yeah. I mean for, for me the losing muscle memory would be very bad. So, so and that's why now I'm just trying to force myself to say that I've.
00:59:08:19 - 00:59:13:01
Speaker 3
Never seen Terrans. Right. This is because yeah.
00:59:13:03 - 00:59:17:14
Speaker 1
You realize you after a while you pick up and you try. And then last time you used to write your essays.
00:59:17:14 - 00:59:18:14
Speaker 2
Well, yeah. Yes, yes.
00:59:18:15 - 00:59:20:09
Speaker 3
I can't do that anymore. Now, my handwriting is shit, right?
00:59:20:11 - 00:59:26:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I just trying to get back to the habit of just using my hands to, to write in something.
00:59:26:06 - 00:59:28:05
Speaker 3
Yeah. When you read the book, I was like.
00:59:28:07 - 00:59:48:16
Speaker 2
What is this? This is so important because, yeah, I can't remember when I watched it on a clip or something. But I talk about kids today. Yeah, it's less dexterity because they don't spend time outdoors with the grip. Right? So they can't grip a pencil properly when they start reading. Right? Yeah. And the teacher, I think it was a clip of like that means on Chinese tuition class and teacher teaching them how to hold a pencil and, do that like to learn how to write.
00:59:48:19 - 00:59:50:20
Speaker 2
Yeah. And the teacher explained the challenges.
00:59:50:22 - 00:59:52:16
Speaker 1
But they are damn good at like, so.
00:59:52:18 - 00:59:54:02
Speaker 2
I build.
00:59:54:04 - 00:59:55:18
Speaker 3
These muscles. I was, I think.
00:59:55:18 - 01:00:02:01
Speaker 1
I was like 28 years old when I learned how to do this. So you then I just watching my son, like, was so quickly doing it. Yeah.
01:00:02:04 - 01:00:05:15
Speaker 2
So do your kids use get exposure to devices?
01:00:05:17 - 01:00:21:00
Speaker 1
Yes. I mean, we, we do try to limit as much as possible. But at the same time, you know, I also grew up with playing video games and stuff like that. So there were some of my the most profound experiences I ever had playing video games, you know, so I do I do deprive my, my kid of that, of that.
01:00:21:02 - 01:00:28:02
Speaker 3
I make it a lot younger, 18 months now. So right now, still no screens except like, if my mom is on the sees a video call or something like.
01:00:28:03 - 01:00:29:23
Speaker 2
Right, right. Yeah. That it's like, stay in touch.
01:00:29:23 - 01:00:54:23
Speaker 3
You have to stay in touch. Like, but, you know, just not like, I mean, hearing you talk about how there's, you know, everything comes at a cost and I'll, I'll am I do see that early on in your career, maybe you would have responded to these sort of things differently, like given you are working very intensely. So how how has how would you say Elaine Chong has changed from the time, you know, you became a scholar, worked abroad to now, maybe being more introspective, like.
01:00:54:24 - 01:00:57:10
Speaker 3
But how would you say you have changed?
01:00:57:12 - 01:01:17:11
Speaker 2
How would I have changed? I think I listened more to my gut now, I think. Yeah, and that's what I enjoy about being in my 30s. I feel like I'm sure of myself. I'm sure of what I want to, what makes me happy, right? And the need to protect my peace. And I'm unafraid to make trade offs.
01:01:17:13 - 01:01:37:24
Speaker 2
That allows me to do that. In my 20s, I think I was a lot more aware of how other people would view it, how my bosses would feel, but how it's this idea of you, me, these choices. Then the in there is inheritance of like anxiety. Yeah. So I feel like if I look back how Eileen Chong has evolved, I would say that I become more self-assured.
01:01:38:01 - 01:01:39:19
Speaker 2
Yeah.
01:01:39:21 - 01:01:41:23
Speaker 3
Have you, have you dabbled in cooking.
01:01:42:00 - 01:01:53:21
Speaker 2
I cook quite regularly. Yeah. But not like the, you know the CIA level. But yeah I still enjoy cooking visually at home. So yeah. Then once in a while I just dream about you know what. What do you think the culinary school.
01:01:53:23 - 01:02:12:20
Speaker 1
Is quite interesting to talk about is parallel paths, because I think one of your intro videos to politics, you talked about multiple pathways to success. Right. So what does success mean for you now as a encamp, what would you, classify as success in five years? Like the next four years in your term?
01:02:12:22 - 01:02:34:18
Speaker 2
Well, I consider success, to adequately represent the voices of my generation in Parliament. I don't think there's enough of us. We make up about a third of our workforce. If I'm not wrong, millennials, we are not a third in Parliament. Right. And that's what policies made that will have implications on us. Yeah. How we live, how we retire, how we and all of that.
01:02:34:20 - 01:02:42:22
Speaker 2
But not enough of that input into the making process. Yeah. So I would say that that would be success if I continue to listen and reflect.
01:02:42:24 - 01:02:47:23
Speaker 3
How would you measure that or quantify that? You know, Singapore, we need to quantify things.
01:02:48:00 - 01:02:53:11
Speaker 2
Then there's a wrong approach. Right. So, I suppose I.
01:02:53:13 - 01:02:54:22
Speaker 3
There was the nest or.
01:02:54:24 - 01:02:57:04
Speaker 2
If I went down that path. Yeah. Yeah.
01:02:57:04 - 01:03:03:13
Speaker 1
So, so I mean, if you were to take a Skillsfuture course, would it be related to cooking or something like.
01:03:03:15 - 01:03:14:08
Speaker 2
So the one time I did use my skills, which I credit when I, I don't remember when that was when I came back from uni, I took a barista class, but I was also homeless. I was not cut out for it.
01:03:14:10 - 01:03:14:20
Speaker 3
I was a.
01:03:14:20 - 01:03:15:18
Speaker 1
Barrister.
01:03:15:20 - 01:03:21:17
Speaker 2
Yeah, because they taught you how to use a machine, right? Yeah. And then to make coffee and all of that.
01:03:21:19 - 01:03:25:11
Speaker 1
It is a multiple pathways to success. I mean, you can make other drinks.
01:03:25:17 - 01:03:44:02
Speaker 2
Exactly. And I think that doesn't need to be one definition. It's just model pathways. But more importantly, it's just multiple definitions of it just it can be success in different ways. If people I don't know, I'm sure for both of you how you view success ten years ago and today looks quite different. Yeah. And it's like an evolving thing.
01:03:44:02 - 01:03:53:18
Speaker 2
But I just wish that we have more space to, you know, allow that to evolve without feeling like I'm just choking towards this goal. And then it's like across the finish line, you're done. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
01:03:53:20 - 01:04:13:01
Speaker 3
Yeah. So, so I mean, you know, like, now if you look at politics around the world, I mean, even in Singapore, is there sometimes a sense of bleakness like, you know, the gray clouds? You know what? What gives you hope about the future? Beat politics, the political landscape in Singapore, our generation or just society in general?
01:04:13:03 - 01:04:33:18
Speaker 2
I think the increased willingness to question, yeah, people's willingness to question. I always feel like it starts with it may not always start with action. Right. And I see in the at least not Gen Z, the younger generation, my view is that people start thinking more about the cost of that inaction, the direction. Yeah, too often I think we get bombed by what I have to do.
01:04:33:21 - 01:04:48:05
Speaker 2
If I do this, if I see something, if I do that, yeah. So that gives me hope. But I'm also generally quite a hopeful, optimistic person. Yeah. So maybe I tend to have a bias optimism bias. Yeah. Yeah. I mean.
01:04:48:05 - 01:04:52:22
Speaker 3
So basically less yalla and and more yalla, but essentially.
01:04:52:24 - 01:04:53:09
Speaker 2
Yalla.
01:04:53:11 - 01:04:54:11
Speaker 1
Let's butts more and.
01:04:54:12 - 01:04:56:09
Speaker 2
Less but more n.
01:04:56:11 - 01:04:57:22
Speaker 3
Question why.
01:04:57:24 - 01:04:58:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. So the.
01:04:58:11 - 01:04:59:09
Speaker 3
Question is but what.
01:04:59:12 - 01:05:01:07
Speaker 2
Yalla end.
01:05:01:09 - 01:05:01:23
Speaker 3
Can be yalla.
01:05:01:23 - 01:05:09:13
Speaker 2
Blah. But yeah, it's a framing wise. I mean it's a mindset. We said that we all need our mindset. It's like okay.
01:05:09:13 - 01:05:10:22
Speaker 3
Great mindset reset.
01:05:10:24 - 01:05:19:08
Speaker 1
Oh cool. Yeah yeah I mean yeah yeah I look forward to hearing more of the young perspectives. The I mean I also consider myself millennial. Right.
01:05:19:08 - 01:05:21:20
Speaker 3
So in Parliament.
01:05:21:21 - 01:05:28:04
Speaker 1
Because yeah, it is you're right. It is a bit underrepresented in terms of the demographics. Yeah. Yeah.
01:05:28:06 - 01:05:39:10
Speaker 3
But but yeah. So, so I mean, thanks so much for, sharing. We just have the one final question, which is the one sure thing, hopefully is the easiest question so far. Terrance, you have your one of the.
01:05:39:12 - 01:05:41:15
Speaker 1
You have yours. I'm just pulling mine up.
01:05:41:19 - 01:05:48:04
Speaker 3
Okay, so this is this is so we kind of, like, stall, to pull up our, one shot things.
01:05:48:06 - 01:06:15:15
Speaker 1
Yeah, I do have my, actually, it's, somewhat related to the topic, but, Yeah, recently I started watching a little bit about, you know, what's going on with the the AI wars between open AI, the US Department of War and that. Right. And, and it's quite it's for people who don't know. Basically, there's a big, bust up between anthropic which runs clot, the clot.
01:06:15:15 - 01:06:58:05
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. And the Department of Defense, because anthropic refuses to remove certain guardrails, in the use of AI in, the military. So basically, they've been blacklisted by this current administration. And, the CEO has been going around giving interviews, and I just watched an interview of him and CBS news and I just it just reminded me how long it's been since, we've watched a CEO, especially of a tech company, stand up to do something that, you know, that is being forced down their throats, sir, I think maybe 2013 or 2014, we last saw some of the social media companies like Google, Zuckerberg, you know, the Arab Spring and
01:06:58:05 - 01:07:19:08
Speaker 1
things like that. Right? So, yeah, just it was just like I was so shocked. It felt like a blast from the past watching, you know, this nerdy dude just talk about how he, you know, he he believes in certain things and he doesn't want to cross the lines of those things. And, yeah, reminded me, I mean, in some ways, of, like, give me hope like that, that not the world is not as, evil.
01:07:19:08 - 01:07:35:15
Speaker 1
And then just late stage capitalism and all that as it seems. Even just for that shot and I know he, he's probably under a lot of money from making the interview and a lot of money is on the line. But just seeing someone, a tech CEO not go down that route of like, bending the knee in on it was very refreshing.
01:07:35:17 - 01:07:36:06
Speaker 1
So here's my, I.
01:07:36:11 - 01:07:41:05
Speaker 3
You I mean, the app has is number one on the App Store. It overtook OpenAI already. Yeah.
01:07:41:07 - 01:07:44:19
Speaker 1
And by seems to be overloaded. I love a lot of error messages and I try to use it.
01:07:44:20 - 01:08:07:05
Speaker 3
Yeah. It's, it's not the most seamless like, but I support like, I support like, support also, for, for me it is something also I saw on YouTube. I don't know whether you have time for, like, TV series, like The Boys. Have you, have you heard the boys? So I think it's based off a comic and the final season, the latest trailer just came out, so The Boys is based.
01:08:07:05 - 01:08:29:19
Speaker 3
I mean, it's set almost like Avengers. They are superheroes in the world, but they're corrupt and, like, they're assholes, like, And it's such a good show. It's so gory, it's so vulgar. But the storyline is awesome, I love it, and the latest, trailer just dropped there, and it's coming out in April. Yeah. So April 2026 and yeah, excitingly, you haven't you have watched season one.
01:08:29:22 - 01:08:31:14
Speaker 3
Yeah. So season one. Yeah. Yeah.
01:08:31:14 - 01:08:32:09
Speaker 1
Very dystopian.
01:08:32:14 - 01:08:33:18
Speaker 3
Everything very dystopian.
01:08:33:19 - 01:08:35:10
Speaker 2
I'm always on the hunt for new things to watch.
01:08:35:10 - 01:08:41:14
Speaker 3
But you do like the kind of like, optimistic kind of thing or because you're so optimistic in real life.
01:08:41:16 - 01:08:44:22
Speaker 1
This one is very pessimistic. It will balance out. Oh.
01:08:44:24 - 01:08:45:23
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:08:45:24 - 01:08:49:06
Speaker 2
Well, see, I'm always like, you know, just give one episode of try and. Yeah, the.
01:08:49:06 - 01:08:49:20
Speaker 3
Boys. The boys.
01:08:49:20 - 01:08:50:13
Speaker 2
Yeah. The boys.
01:08:50:13 - 01:08:52:05
Speaker 3
It's great. The boys is on Amazon Prime.
01:08:52:09 - 01:09:10:16
Speaker 2
Yeah. Okay. Another Clarkson's farm. Oh, yeah. Oh, so you like the unscripted? Yeah. Yeah, I really enjoy then just seeing them try and you don't know what's the outcome. It's just funny. It's quite relatable. I also sometimes think about what it was. It like if I had a piece of land, I could farm,
01:09:10:18 - 01:09:12:13
Speaker 3
The Jerome Bay? Yeah.
01:09:12:15 - 01:09:13:01
Speaker 2
Okay.
01:09:13:03 - 01:09:14:02
Speaker 1
Let's play something.
01:09:14:04 - 01:09:15:19
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.
01:09:15:21 - 01:09:17:01
Speaker 3
All right. What is your.
01:09:17:03 - 01:09:36:12
Speaker 2
What's my one shot thing? I subscribe to this newsletter. It's called Reasons to Be Cheerful. Oh, well, so it comes into my inbox every day. I think the world has a lot of doom and gloom. In my last job it was a lot about dissecting that, you know, the chaos and trying to make sense of it.
01:09:36:14 - 01:09:55:15
Speaker 2
So how I try to stay optimistic and cheerful is by subscribing to this newsletter. I accidentally stumble upon it after I transition into Phil and be, because of an article. And then I just find that it's interesting because they gather all these positive and say things that are working solutions to like challenges that cities are trying or their organizations.
01:09:55:17 - 01:10:04:03
Speaker 2
And he put in a newsletter and it's just sent in your inbox. So every day you get to read like 3 or 4 pieces of positive things about the things that we are getting right in the world.
01:10:04:05 - 01:10:08:10
Speaker 1
Yeah. So you really programing your own, your own mind about being positive?
01:10:08:14 - 01:10:11:01
Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, you write about mindset.
01:10:11:03 - 01:10:12:10
Speaker 3
We were very angry.
01:10:12:12 - 01:10:30:05
Speaker 2
I was very cynical. Oh, really? Yeah. And I would say after seven years on the frontlines of all these chaos and all of that has, has an impact on you, right? Yeah. And I was just recounting to my husband after I left my first job that I couldn't remember the person that I was before I started. Oh, really?
01:10:30:05 - 01:10:37:09
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's kind of. You don't think too hard, right? Okay. Yeah, that's. But I said, do you remember that that was pre-pandemic? Oh. Terrance.
01:10:37:12 - 01:10:43:14
Speaker 3
So I think Chandler but remember, maybe he must say pre doing media.
01:10:43:17 - 01:10:48:04
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. Okay. We read this right. This is like. Yeah.
01:10:48:06 - 01:10:50:18
Speaker 3
Yeah. Wow. So big change for you. Rapid change.
01:10:50:18 - 01:10:51:02
Speaker 2
Yeah.
01:10:51:02 - 01:10:52:04
Speaker 3
Yeah, big change for me also.
01:10:52:10 - 01:11:02:16
Speaker 1
I mean, it is, it's, interesting that you you took the steps to. Okay, get out of that cynicism, because it can become like a bit of a spiral and people get very cynical one last.
01:11:02:16 - 01:11:04:03
Speaker 3
Time for newsletter reasons to be.
01:11:04:03 - 01:11:13:07
Speaker 1
Angry. Like, I just want to be lonely and just to be pissed off. So, yeah, at least you are taking steps to, you know, deprogram.
01:11:13:14 - 01:11:30:01
Speaker 2
Yes. And I think for me, also just offering different perspectives, right. How, people tackling the same challenge differently, making it building that kampung again, you know, just something to counter all the negative, news that comes our way. The barrage of it. Yeah. Too much sometimes.
01:11:30:01 - 01:11:31:10
Speaker 1
So it's called reasons to be.
01:11:31:12 - 01:11:38:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's called reasons to be cheerful. And I, I think is very interesting because they pull stories from all like, different parts of the world that we don't, read very much.
01:11:38:08 - 01:11:40:18
Speaker 3
Singapore ever been featured right?
01:11:40:20 - 01:11:55:19
Speaker 2
I it doesn't come. Not that I know. So when I started subscribing to it, I actually wrote to them to say like, can you feature more news from Southeast Asia? Oh, because I feel like, you know, there's also a selection bias, like, so what? People contribute. I okay. It's quite interesting.
01:11:55:23 - 01:11:56:09
Speaker 3
Effecting.
01:11:56:09 - 01:12:02:01
Speaker 2
Change. You oh is it because we don't. Yeah. Try to keep an eye out for these positive things.
01:12:02:01 - 01:12:07:07
Speaker 1
Oh, well, it's like mine was negative. Yours was slightly dystopian. So yours at least is positive.
01:12:07:10 - 01:12:14:02
Speaker 2
The balance has gone up. Yeah. And yellow, but,
01:12:14:04 - 01:12:22:06
Speaker 3
Okay. Okay. But. Yeah. Thanks so much for sharing, Ellen. It was a, I hope you enjoyed the conversation. And I hope to see more speeches of yours in Parliament.
01:12:22:08 - 01:12:26:09
Speaker 2
Well, thank you, although definitely. I'll definitely have to make. Must be just correct. Yes.
01:12:26:09 - 01:12:27:08
Speaker 1
Yeah, but thank you.
01:12:27:08 - 01:12:27:21
Speaker 3
Awesome.
01:12:27:23 - 01:12:29:14
Speaker 2
Thank you.
01:12:29:16 - 01:12:33:19
Speaker 1
All right. Irish. So what do you feel about the conversation with Elaine Chong?
01:12:33:21 - 01:12:54:04
Speaker 3
I mean, I enjoyed it, and, I think her answers, the everything that we us, I thought she answered. You can see the logic behind what she answers. Like, I'm sure maybe at, like, multiple hours, multiple podcast, we can go deeper and deeper. But some of the things, when I also saw, I wasn't sure how she was going to answer, like, the things she said about, you know, why must we be so self-defeating?
01:12:54:06 - 01:13:01:24
Speaker 3
I thought it was interesting perspective. And, yeah, I can see why. Yeah, she was she was, it was a catch, but.
01:13:02:01 - 01:13:08:24
Speaker 1
Yeah, but I can really feel the genuine positivity that she's trying to, you know, portray as well. Right?
01:13:09:00 - 01:13:09:21
Speaker 3
We were trying to track her.
01:13:09:21 - 01:13:40:10
Speaker 1
Down, trying to track her down against cynicism. All. But, Yeah, I listen to the speeches. I'm like, really, man? You know? Is it us? Does she really believe all this is possible? But when you speak to her, when you hear the things that, you know, important to her and even her, one thing that she talks about, you can tell this person is really trying to, you know, see more positivity in what she what the world around her and also, what she's trying to do in parliament and, and I don't mean that in a very like, oh, when I look at her so positive, glass half full.
01:13:40:10 - 01:13:57:09
Speaker 1
But she's in Parliament and she realizes she has this, this moment in her life to actually, like, you know, effect change, even if it's a change of mindsets or a change in the way we look at things. So, yeah, I'm glad that we had a chance to, like, talk to her more about it.
01:13:57:14 - 01:14:20:11
Speaker 3
Yeah. And I, I mean, I, I still would like to have a podcast recording with lead 1.0, you know, when she was at MSU and maybe, because I think, yeah, I like, can see the change. And as you get older, you do change, right? Yeah. Yeah. But, I mean, to her credit, she started volunteering at December 2024, and the politics May 2025 and feels like she's got more experience in just one year.
01:14:20:11 - 01:14:22:15
Speaker 3
Like maybe it's all the years in the MFA like.
01:14:22:17 - 01:14:23:04
Speaker 1
Diplomat.
01:14:23:04 - 01:14:36:16
Speaker 3
Tree. Yeah, diplomat. Because, I mean, it was the way she speaks in all, I think is probably having to interact with people around the world and all. Yeah. So interesting, I hope I hope she, like, continues all the way to the next election. And beyond that as well.
01:14:36:18 - 01:14:54:18
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. I think, the, the we mentioned the, the runway for her and through politics was so short. Yeah. But you know, she's just ticking off that. Right? I mean she was hosting or seeing rallies during the election, and now she's delivering these, speeches in Parliament that, you know, make people sit up and notice that. Right?
01:14:54:18 - 01:15:12:01
Speaker 3
Yeah. And I mean, I think it's it's a sign, right? When people know that, they can imagine a, what did you say in Parliament? I think when a parliamentarian reaches that point and not everyone does. Yeah. Like some of the new Nmps, I'm, I don't know what they've said. Some have been very prominent. Some of the new MPs or so.
01:15:12:01 - 01:15:17:04
Speaker 3
I can't even remember what it's it. But she has really kind of stick the stick. The Clemenceau. Kudos. Oh hell.
01:15:17:05 - 01:15:38:11
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, looking forward to see more of, her speeches in Parliament as well, because I think, admittedly, when we first lost them one way and his appointed parliament, I thought, oh, no, how are we going to fill their shoes? Yeah, yeah. But so far, the two that we spoke to Andre, both Andre and her have been quite, been quite, walked away with, good feeling.
01:15:38:16 - 01:15:39:02
Speaker 1
Yeah.
01:15:39:02 - 01:15:59:13
Speaker 3
I'm betting I'll bet. So I mean, yeah. All the best to her. Hopefully you enjoyed the conversation with Elaine. If you did, it would be great if you could share it with someone who maybe hasn't listened to us before. If you want shorter extracts, including extracts from this episode, you can follow us on social media. And if you want a weekly newsletter with all our wonderful things, you can sign up for your little bit@yale.com.
01:15:59:17 - 01:16:13:01
Speaker 1
And if you are interested to work with us, please email us a contact. The Ministry of Honeycomb. We really read and and try to answer the most emails. And if you want to find out what we do, please go to the Ministry of Honeycomb, check our portfolio and also find a contact us page there if you need.
01:16:13:07 - 01:16:16:01
Speaker 3
Sweet. Thanks for listening everybody, and we'll talk to you all soon.