Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

“What you think is not gospel.”
Can arguing with yourself make you happier? Martin Seligman, positive psychology pioneer and author of Agency: The Psychological History of Human Progress, says our negative thoughts don’t have to dictate how we feel. By recognizing our internal narratives and challenging them with evidence, we can change our outlook and build a greater sense of agency. In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, Seligman and Matt Abrahams discuss flourishing, optimism, and the power of self-talk. They also examine why celebrating other people’s successes takes more than saying “congratulations,” and how active, constructive communication can deepen our relationships.

Takeaways:
  • Your thoughts aren’t facts. Negative self-talk can shape your emotions and actions, but learning to challenge those thoughts with realistic evidence can help you develop a more optimistic outlook.
  • Celebrate success with curiosity, not just congratulations. Asking thoughtful questions about someone’s good news helps them relive the experience and can deepen your relationship.

Activity:
  • Argue with yourself. Catch one negative thought you have about yourself this week and write it down as an argument rather than a fact. Then build the opposing case by listing three pieces of real evidence that challenge it.
To listen to the extended Deep Thinks version of this episode, please visit FasterSmarter.io/premium.

Episode Reference Links:
Connect:

 Chapters:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (01:20) - The Five Pillars of Flourishing
  • (04:51) - Changing Your Inner Dialogue
  • (06:22) - Challenging Negative Self-Talk
  • (07:58) - Overcoming Imposter Syndrome
  • (09:38) - Building a Sense of Agency
  • (11:27) - Learning From Your Critics
  • (13:18) - The Final Three Questions
  • (20:17) - Conclusion

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Creators and Guests

Host
Matt Abrahams
Lecturer Stanford University Graduate School of Business | Think Fast Talk Smart podcast host
Guest
Martin Seligman
Founder of the Positive Psychology Movement | Psychologist | Professor | Director of the Positive Psychology Center | Author

What is Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques?

One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.

Join Matt Abrahams, best-selling author and Strategic Communication lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business, as he interviews experts to provide actionable insights that help you communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. From handling impromptu questions to crafting compelling messages, Matt explores practical strategies for real-world communication challenges.

Whether you’re navigating a high-stakes presentation, perfecting your email tone, or speaking off the cuff, Think Fast, Talk Smart equips you with the tools, techniques, and best practices to express yourself effectively in any situation. Enhance your communication skills to elevate your career and build stronger professional relationships.

Tune in every Tuesday for new episodes. Subscribe now to unlock your potential as a thoughtful, impactful communicator. Learn more and sign up for our eNewsletter at fastersmarter.io.

Matt Abrahams: Arguing with yourself
may be the best way to flourish.

My name's Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.

Today, I'm excited to
speak with Martin Seligman.

Marty is a world-renowned
psychologist and professor at

the University of Pennsylvania.

He's the director of the
Positive Psychology Center.

His groundbreaking research has
fundamentally reshaped how science

understands human wellbeing.

He has authored more than 30 books,
including Flourish, Authentic

Happiness, and his latest, Agency: The
Psychological History of Human Progress.

Well, welcome, Martin.

I first learned of your work
when I was an undergraduate.

The work you did in learned helplessness
was really fascinating and actually helped

me want to study more in psychology.

Thank you, and thank you for being here.

Martin Seligman: I'm
pleased to be here, Matt.

I have to confess I'm intimidated
by the title of your endeavor.

I used to be fast, and now I'm slow,
and I used to be smart, and now the

best I can do is be contemplative.

Matt Abrahams: Oh, well, I appreciate
that, and we will have a lovely

conversation that goes deep and
contemplates lots of important things.

Shall we get started?

Martin Seligman: Okay.

Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

So it is rare to get the
opportunity to speak with somebody

who started an entire field.

You started the field of
wellness and wellbeing and

happiness research in psychology.

We've had several guests on the
show who've talked about things

in this field, Sonja Lyubomirsky,
Laurie Santos, Arthur Brooks, and

I'd love to get your take on it.

You, across the studying you do, have
studied something called flourishing.

Can you share with us a bit
about what flourishing is and

what we can do to achieve it?

Martin Seligman: Well, my interest in
flourishing started because it was a

field that psychology wouldn't touch,
the question of how to be happy.

And my experience, and probably yours,
Matt, when you lie in bed at night,

you're not thinking about how to
go from minus eight to minus three.

You're thinking about how to go from
plus three to plus eight in life.

Well, there was no psychology of
that, and that was my motive for

founding, when I was president of the
American Psychological Association,

the field of positive psychology,
which is about flourishing.

And for me, flourishing has five elements.

The acronym is PERMA.

P is positive emotion,
subjective well-being.

E is engagement, how absorbed you
are right now in our conversation.

R is relationships, good relationships.

M is one sense of meaning and mattering.

And A is accomplishment and achievement.

So for me, flourishing relies
on five pillars I call PERMA.

Matt Abrahams: It's very clear that each
of those can help us all feel better.

In your work and in your research,
do all five need to be in place

for someone to feel that sense
of wellbeing and flourishing?

Or is it just having one or
two areas where you really feel

accomplished or passionate?

Is that enough?

Martin Seligman: Not at all.

It's like a dashboard on an airplane.

So there are lots of dials on an
airplane, but if you wanna get

there as cheaply as possible, it's
the central dial that matters.

If you wanna get there as comfortably as
possible, it's the radar that matters.

Similarly with PERMA, I'm a high
meaning and accomplishment person.

Those are the two of the five
that really matter for me.

So for me, flourishing is knowing about
the techniques of more meaning in my life

and the techniques of more accomplishment.

It's secondary to me, the hedonics, how
much joy I feel and how engaged I am.

Like the dashboard on an airplane,
it depends on what you care about.

Matt Abrahams: Ah, so each of us
can reflect what's most important.

So as I look at PERMA, I feel that
relationships and meaning are what's

most important in my life, and I can
try to optimize for those as almost

a roadmap for how we can find our way
to deeper fulfillment and flourishing

simply by thinking through these five
variables and what's important for

us, and then how to optimize for them.

I appreciate that, and challenge
everybody listening to think about

where you fall on passion, enjoyment,
relationship, meaning, and accomplishment.

Some of your work talks about the
internal conversations we have

with ourselves, the monologue, that
self-tape we have playing in our head.

How does this shape our worldview?

And if we're not happy with that chatter,
are there things we can do to change it?

Martin Seligman: Well, I think the most
important revolution in psychology in my

lifetime was the cognitive revolution.

Before that came along, people
believed that emotion was primary,

and what you said to yourself, what
you thought, was a product of emotion.

We now know at least that what
you think very often determines

your emotion and your action.

What you think is not gospel.

It's often whispered to you by
someone whose mission in life

was to make you miserable.

So it's very important to be on top
of your internal dialogue, and then if

you're finding it makes you depressed and
anxious, to argue against it rationally.

So a lot of what one does in flourishing
and positive psychology, which came

right out of cognitive therapy, was
to become very sensitive to what

we're saying to ourselves and learn
how to argue against it when it was

leading you places you didn't wanna go.

Matt Abrahams: This idea of listening to
that chatter can be hard for many of us.

Are there techniques that you
know of or perhaps use yourself

that give us insight to it?

I mean, the voice in my head, I'm
just so used to hearing, I don't

really sit and reflect on it.

How can I best dispassionately
learn about it?

Martin Seligman: As a pessimist and
a depressive, I've spent a lifetime

inventing these techniques and using them.

And on the pessimistic
depressive side, the voices are

always going to occur to you.

They're not eliminated.

What happens is you can counter them.

And so for example, Matt, before
I came on the show with you, I was

quite anxious about it, and I was
thinking, "Good heavens, I'm in my 80s.

Can I really keep up with
Matt and talk fast and smart?

And gee, I'm too old for this." And
when we came on together, indeed I

was thinking something like that.

But as the listener doesn't know,
we had three technical difficulties.

During the time you and I made
friends, I argued against that.

Here I'm dealing with one of the experts
on impromptu speech, and I'm doing great.

And so I essentially argued against,
"I just can't be fast and smart."

So I've become an expert both at
hearing what I say to myself, but at

realistically marshaling evidence against
depressive and pessimistic thoughts.

Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate that.

Thank you for enduring the technical
difficulties, and I actually

have enjoyed our conversation
in between those very much.

And what I really like about what
you have said is that the words

that we say to ourselves are merely
arguments that can be countered, and

they can be countered with evidence.

So in a lot of my coaching work and some
of my teaching work, there are a lot of

people who experience what I think would
generally be defined as imposter syndrome.

The stories they're telling themselves
is they don't deserve this, or

they're not up to the challenge.

And what I hear you saying is you can
use evidence to counter that position.

You can say, "Look, you were
invited to give this talk. You were

promoted to this position." This is
all evidence that runs counter to

that story you're telling yourself.

And I can see how that would lead to
more positive feeling, or at least

a reduction of the negative feeling.

Do I have that right?

Martin Seligman: The two things to
know about the imposter syndrome

are first, those voices that are
telling you you're an imposter

have nothing to do with reality.

They have to do with deep
worries, with childhood, what

your parents used to say to you.

That's part one.

They're not realistic, so you should
treat them as not realistic, and then

marshal all the evidence about why
you got here and what your credentials

were, and that it's not an accident that
you're sitting in this position now.

So the imposter syndrome can be
dealt well with those two steps.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely,
and thank you for that.

And I think all of us can talk
back to some of that chatter

that we have in our head.

A lot of what you have shared with
us so far in your work is about

becoming aware of these patterns,
habits, just inclinations we have.

With the realization of the future
looms large in how we feel and what

we do, what are some things we can do
to maximize wellness, relationships,

communication with that knowledge?

Martin Seligman: From the point of
view of happiness, I think the notion

of agency becomes very important.

And indeed, agency is
what my new book is about.

It's the culmination of 60 years
of work, and I think it's the most

informative tool we have both about
our futures and the human future.

Matt Abrahams: Can you define
what you mean by agency?

I found your book fascinating.

And what are some of the key components
that make up our sense of agency?

Martin Seligman: I think there are three.

The first is efficacy, and that's to
what extent do you believe that you can

achieve your goals in the here and now?

The second is optimism.

To what extent do you believe you're
gonna be able to achieve those goals

in the future and far into the future?

And the third is imagination, and
that is the range of goals that

you can envision about your future.

So a complete sense of efficacy, of agency
as efficacy, optimism, and imagination.

Matt Abrahams: You helped found
the field of positive psychology.

You are the founder of that field.

I know from talking to people and having
seen it develop that there were some

naysayers, there was some resistance.

What advice do you have for people
who are initiating new ideas, new

approaches for helping be persuasive
and influential to at least get people

to consider a different approach?

Any insights from the experience you went
through getting to where you are today?

Martin Seligman: Well, I think it's
important to put yourself in the

shoes of your critics, to anticipate
what's wrong, to become comfortable

with their arguments, and to make
your best arguments against it.

And I, I'm just remembering the late
Barbara Ehrenreich, who was one of

the critics of positive psychology.

She wrote a book called Bright-sided,
which compared me to The Wizard of Oz.

And in the last few months of her life, we
got into a dialogue together in which she

said something like, "Well, you probably
have a very dim view of me, Marty, and

you probably think my prospects are not
very good because I'm not a promo person."

And I said, "Well, not at all, Barb.

You're so engaged in these issues of
social justice that your engagement

is enormous, and that is a health and
optimism and life-preserving force."

And I remember Barbara writing me
shortly before her death, telling me how

meaningful that was in the face of this
merciless criticism that she had given me.

So owning and befriending
your critics is important.

Matt Abrahams: That reflection on what's
important to them and where they're

coming from can allow you to have a
much more meaningful conversation.

Well, Marty, this has been
a phenomenal conversation.

Thank you so much.

As you well know, we end with three
questions, one I will make up for you

and two that I've been asking everybody.

And we've spent a lot of time talking
about the internal communication we have.

I'm curious to understand your
perspective on the external communication.

How do we maximize our communication
to help ourselves and help others?

Martin Seligman: Well, something happened
20 years ago which turned this field

around for me, and that was let's think
about how people celebrate together

rather than how they fight together.

So the question is not how you go wrong,
but what do you say to your spouse

or your best friend when they come to
you with a victory, with a triumph?

And that's something that
people have not worked on.

If you can imagine a two by two
destructive, constructive, active,

and passive, the only one that
really works is active constructive.

So let me just give
you an example of that.

My wife Mandy is a amateur
black and white photographer.

And a few years ago, she came downstairs
and said to me, "Marty, the editor

of Black and White Magazine just
called me, and I won the international

award for the best black and white
photograph." Okay, what should I say

to Mandy when she comes down with that?

Well, what I would have said until
I had read the revolutionary work

on communication and marriage was,
"Congratulations, dear. You deserve

it. You're a great photographer." Well,
that's called passive-constructive,

and it has no effect.

It's wallpaper.

But I knew the literature
on active-constructive.

And so here's what I said.

First, I had to show Mandy that I
really knew what she was talking about.

So I said, "Was it the black and white
picture of the swan that you took in

Blenheim last summer that won it?" And
she said, "Yes, it was, in fact." I

said, "Well, you know, Mandy, that's
the most beautiful black and white

picture of an animal I've ever seen."
So that was part one, showing that you

really knew what the triumph was about.

But here comes the part that's important
and we neglect out of haste often,

and that's to put Mandy in touch
with this great victory she just had.

So I said, "Mandy, tell me verbatim, what
did the editor of Black and White say?"

And so she went through it.

I said, "Well, then, what do you think
it is about your photography that could

have snatched the prizes away from The New
York Times Pulitzer Prize winner?" And she

said, "I think I'm very good with gray,
and I do a lot with nuances." And then

I said, "Okay, well, how can you teach
kids this technique in their drawing and

photography?" And so we talked about that.

Then I said, "Mandy, let's go to
the refrigerator and open that

bottle of Dom Perignon that's
been sitting there for a decade."

Matt Abrahams: That idea of
being constructive and engaged in

dialogue around that, really, really
insightful because most people

just act in a very heuristic way.

"Hey, you won an award.
Congratulations." This requires

a bit more thought and presence.

Martin Seligman: It takes a lot of work.

And the reason we say things like, "What's
for dinner?" or, "Congratulations,"

is we, we're not used to doing that
work, and it doesn't come naturally.

But the other person knows that,
and that's why it's wallpaper.

So active-constructive communication
is a difficult technique, and it takes

practice, and we can get better at it.

Matt Abrahams: The rewards for
doing that are a deepening of the

relationship, and I appreciate that.

Question number two, who is a
communicator that you admire and why?

Martin Seligman: I'm thinking Ludwig
Wittgenstein, actually, although

I've never heard him in speech.

But I've read some of the impromptu
things that he had to say, and the one

that's on my mind right now, because
I've been thinking about the question

of what is the meaning of life, and
it is not a good question at all.

Wittgenstein said, impromptu, I'm told,
"I don't know why we're here, but I'm

pretty sure it's not to be happy."

Matt Abrahams: I can see why
somebody who founded positive

psychology would be enamored with
that or, or curious about it.

I have to ask, you said that the
meaning of life is a bad question.

What is the meaning of life?

Martin Seligman: Yeah, and the
reason I think it's bad is that

meaningless wears the pants here.

And so I think it's a yearning in which
what we understand is meaningless and

empty, and that meaning means something
like not empty and not meaningless.

So that's kind of where I am about
why it's not a good question.

Matt Abrahams: I appreciate that.

Final question for you.

What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

Martin Seligman: Well, Matt, that's
really difficult because I've

never prepared for speeches, and
I've always wanted spontaneity.

Uh, so for me, I don't go
through any conscious ingredient.

And the older I've gotten, the
more I've just hoped that the

words would come, and they have.

Matt Abrahams: I think one of the key
ingredients that you deploy, you just

mentioned, is spontaneity, and you've
certainly talked about this notion

of empathy or perspective taking as
well, and then being good at arguing

or putting forth rational explanations.

So I think you do have some
principles that you follow.

You might just not see
them in the forefront.

This has been a fantastic conversation.

It's a bit of a fanboy
moment for me to meet you.

Your work has always been meaningful
to me, and the work that you have done

really matters, and this idea of agency
and how we can all develop agency in

ourselves and others, really, really
significant to well-being in general.

Marty, thank you for your time, and
thank you for all the work you have done.

Martin Seligman: Thank you
for the opportunity not to

be fast and not to be smart.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining
us for another episode of Think

Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

Speaking with Marty was a true pleasure.

Among the many ideas he shared, the one
that stands out most to me is that we can

change our negative self-talk and feel
better by providing logical arguments

that counter our negative narratives.

To learn more about happiness and
wellbeing, please listen to our

special miniseries on the topic,
including episodes 179 through 182.

You'll hear from guests like
Laurie Santos and Arthur Brooks.

This episode was produced by
Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, Alex

McCarthy, and me, Matt Abrahams.

Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with
special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

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