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This podcast is where your inner work begins. Each season, we skip the small talk and get straight into: nuanced conversations about self-care and inner work where you’ll feel understood instead of overlooked, practices you can try as soon as the episode ends, and reflective prompts that connect you and your experience to the conversation.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
You're listening to Inner Warmup. I'm your host, Taylor Elyse Morrison, founder and author of Inner Workout, ICF certified coach, and fellow journeyer. In 2017, I set out to build a life that didn't burn me out, and I found my life's work in the process. On Inner Warmup, we talk about how self-care and inner work show up in your relationships, your career, your schedule, and then the conversations you have with yourself. We get practical, we get nuanced, and we're not afraid to challenge wellness as usual. So take a deep breath and get curious. This is where your inner work begins. As we continue our monumental series, we have Kimberly A. Cook, Esquire on the show.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
She's the founder of Grown Girl Divorce, which is a divorce resource company, which educates and empowers black women through divorce. She's also the CEO of Dovetail Conflict Resolution, a divorce and family mediation firm. And before her current roles, Kimberly was a lawyer at one of the country's premier divorce firms, where she worked with high profile clients. Kimberly is also an adjunct law professor, a speaker, and a mentor. And today on the show, you can hear us talk about some signs that might be time to consider a divorce, a step by step walk through of what it actually looks like to get divorced. I'd never heard it broken down like this before. And how we can support our friends and loved ones as they're navigating divorce. Hey, Kimberly.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
Thank you so much for being on the show today.
Kimberly Cook:
Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to chat today.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
So this season, we're calling it monumental. It's all about talking about how these major life changes can impact our well-being and our mental health, whether that's as we're thinking about making the change, during the change, or after the change. And I knew that I could not do a season on major life changes without talking about leaving a really committed partnership and talking about divorce. So I was searching around. I found you. I loved your brand, Grown Girl Divorce, and just, like, the amount of experience that you have in this area. So before we get too far into it, I'm so curious. You could have gone in any direction with law, but you chose family law and divorce.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
Why was that?
Kimberly Cook:
Yeah. So I actually say that it chose me because I, like many people, had no experience with divorce. My parents weren't divorced. I went to a pretty conservative law school. So it wasn't on my radar. And I had the opportunity to intern for a judge who just happened to be married to a divorce attorney. And so when he and I were talking about where I saw myself career wise, I started to tell him things that I enjoy doing, things I didn't enjoy doing. And he said, you know, you might wanna consider divorce and family.
Kimberly Cook:
And I said, no. Doesn't sound like my vibe. That just sounds dramatic and people fighting all the time and just not for me. And he said, that's what people think it is, but that's not actually what it really is. And so I clerked for a divorce and family firm and got hooked and didn't look back. And so I wanna just say what divorce actually is. It's taking two individuals who have found themselves at a place where moving forward together does not allow them to be in a healthy or happy space. And divorce allows you a different path to find your healthy, happy space.
Kimberly Cook:
So I think it's really important when we think about and talk about divorce to frame it in the way that this isn't about drama. This isn't about being acrimonious, which we all know that can happen in divorce. But the reality of it is we all deserve to be healthy. We all deserve to be happy, and that means inclusive of our relationships. And so when you find yourself in a space that's not that, navigating a process to get there can include going through a divorce. So that's how I started in divorce and it has been with me ever since.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
Thank you for sharing that. And I really like the way that you frame up divorce as a way for both people to have more options. Like, it's true. I've been in a committed partnership for a really long time at this point, and I joke with my husband all the time. I'm like, yeah. When you're in a relationship, you have to consider this other person, and that limits your options. And in a lot of cases, you're happy to have your options, "limited" with this person and it's working for both of you. But there's several instances where it isn't and you need to open things up for both of you through divorce.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
I know that you've been doing this work for almost two decades. It's been a long time. I'm curious. Even though you haven't personally experienced divorce, I would guess that you've seen some trends. What are some signs that you've seen for people who might need to start really considering divorce as an option for them?
Kimberly Cook:
Yeah. I think, first and foremost, communication because that's where the breakdown really happens. And so if you find yourself in a space where you cannot talk with your spouse about anything. I mean, whether it's I'm going to pick up bread from the grocery store because, you know, it's going to be a fight over money or the store you selected or you're gonna feel demeaned in some way because you decided to pick up the wheat bread versus the white bread. You know, when you start to see we truly have a breakdown in communication, you can then say to yourself, okay. You know, going to couples counseling, getting in and getting some support, will this help us? And on the one hand, if you both are committed to working through it and know that the real work happens outside of the couple's counseling sessions and you see that real commitment, that's one thing. But if you are now on the 5th cycle of couples counseling or you have a spouse who refuses to participate in counseling or therapy or even really interested in trying to make the things that are challenging in your relationship better, it's time. It's time.
Kimberly Cook:
And that's a hard space and a hard realization for many people. But you have to really be honest with yourself about, is this how I saw my relationship when all when things were happy and rosy and I had kind of the rose colored glasses on? Because, otherwise, what are you doing? And make no mistake, marriage is hard. Right? It's two people coming together constantly in the state of kind of compromise. But it requires two of you wanting to work to make it work. And if you don't have a true partner who wants to do that, then you really have to ask yourself, is this a partnership for me to stay in? In terms of trends, I'm sorry. Communication is, as you can see, my number one. And then the second one would be, you know, if you've got signs of mistrust, then that right there, if you don't trust your spouse or if they don't trust you, no matter kind of what you say, what you do, you really have to get out ahead of that, get support, get counseling. But trust is one of those things that once it's broken, it's very hard to get back without doing some real work.
Kimberly Cook:
And many times, couples just can't get there. So I would say those two things. If there's no communication and a real lack of trust, those are kind of your glaring signs that it's time to to make a change.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
That is so helpful. And I really appreciate what you said too about, like, this commitment, this desire, this willingness to put in the work. And I can imagine that it can be hard to admit to yourself that either you're not willing to put in the work anymore or to admit that your partner, despite what they might be saying, their actions are demonstrating that they're not willing to put in the work. So this is some really good food for thought for anyone who is thinking has that inkling in the back of their head about considering divorce. I also really like that you mentioned the other things that you can try. You can try couples counseling first. And couples counseling in and of itself isn't like a magic bullet. It's you're getting some tools in that room and then, again, going back to the willingness to put in that work to create a relationship that you both can thrive within.
Kimberly Cook:
I think there's a couple of things. I think you have to try it. Right? If you really are committed to your marriage, you have to try to make it work. But trying to make it work doesn't mean that you're the only one trying. Right? So it takes two people to make a marriage work. And if you find that you're the only one doing all the work in trying to make this work, then you have to be honest with yourself saying, what am I doing? Do I want to continue to operate in this way? And marriage isn't always a 50 - 50. There are times in your marriage where it may feel like 80 - 20. There are times in your marriage where it may feel like I'm giving 60% and my spouse is giving 40% or vice versa.
Kimberly Cook:
That happens. Right? Marriage, again, it's hard and it takes work, but wanting to put in the work and knowing that, look, when I'm kind of not giving it my all, my spouse is picking up the slack. And when they aren't doing so hot, I'm there to pick up the slack. It it really is supposed to be an ever evolving, you know, commitment to wanting to grow together and work through this together. So if you're not seeing that in the way that you think that you should be, then certainly getting support, getting help first, I think is always great before you move into the divorce space. I do want to say, though, there is an exception if you are in an unsafe situation. Right? So if there is physical, verbal, sexual, financial abuse, you need to go. That's a hard stop for me all the time.
Kimberly Cook:
So if you were in an unsafe relationship, there's no need to counsel. Get out. Period. And I've always been very clear about that one, so I think it's important to bring that up because you can try to work through a relationship, but not when it's an unsafe one for you.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
All of that was such a word. I feel like I wanna underline, highlight, star that you can't be the only one doing the work. And then, yeah, that reminder for people who are in a situation that is unsafe that you don't need to stay. You can get the support to get out of that relationship. And I wanna double click into this a little bit more for people who are are realizing, like, you know what? I have done the counseling or I'm in an unsafe situation or my partner is not willing to put in the work and they're ready to take steps towards divorce, Even though you mentioned, like, going to a conservative law school, so my parents are still together. I grew up in a relatively conservative religious community where divorce was really looked down on. So even though the saying goes that about 50% of marriages end in divorce, there is a lot of stigma around that growing up. So I'm not in a place where I personally am looking for divorce, but I know that, like, I don't have a lot of clarity on what the processes are for getting a divorce and going through a separation.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
So I wonder if you could just, like, break it down step by step. What is the process of getting divorced look like? And I know this can vary by state, but I would assume there are some things that are somewhat universal.
Kimberly Cook:
Yeah. So it's really interesting because I would say most people don't have the experience of divorce. And depending on your ethnic or racial background, you are likely in a community that doesn't talk about divorce. It's very kind of shameful or there's stigma surrounding it. So that's pretty common that these are not conversations that people are having around the dinner table. I think a lot of us know people who've been, "separated" for years, but nobody really talks about it. But I think because of that, there is this Wizard of Oz sense that there's some wizard behind this curtain and that we don't know what we don't know. And so I'm here to kind of pull back the curtain and say, look, here's what the process is.
Kimberly Cook:
And the reality of it is there's two ways to get divorced, trial or settlement. And so you're correct that depending on your state, that can look like different things. But just generally, it's somebody files a petition for a dissolution of marriage or a petition for legal separation depending on where you live. And that gives the court kind of the indication that, oh, a divorce is happening. Now in some states, you have a physical separation requirement. And so that's why it's really important to understand your state kind of laws and what those requirements are because some states say before you can proceed in the process, you must be physically separated for six months or a year or you have to certify the date of physical separation. And so you do the first step, which is learning what the physical separation requirements are, if any. Then from there, it's the ability to file the kickoff, which is the petition saying, I am petitioning or asking the court to enter a judgment for the dissolution of marriage at the end of all of this.
Kimberly Cook:
That filing occurs. Your spouse will then be personally served, which means they can receive documents and paperwork from the sheriff's department or by a process server. And so that's kind of the legal they have now been notified that a divorce is pending and they will then have time to file their answer. And in your filing, so whether it's your petition or you are the one receiving the paperwork in your answer, that's where the allegations are. Right? Those are the things that say, we have been living separate and apart for a certain amount of time. We have two, three, zero, however many children. I'm asking the court to award me primary custody of the children. I am asking for spousal support.
Kimberly Cook:
I'm asking for child support or vice versa. So it's important to make sure that you are clear about what your ask is in these documents. It's really important to do that because those documents kind of drive the entire process. So you have your petition or your answer filed and then generally you move into what is known in the legal world as the discovery phase. And the discovery phase is the time where documents and information, that's where it's being exchanged. So you're providing your bank statements, your credit card records, the children's schedules. This is really the opportunity for you to understand here are all of our assets, here are our debts, Here's what I have. Here's what my spouse has so that when you start either negotiating or preparing for trial, everybody is supposed to have the same information.
Kimberly Cook:
That process can go on for a very long time depending on everybody's participation in the discovery process. If you are married to somebody who is noncompliant or is somebody who is just not responsive, that's going to take a little bit more time to get the information. If you yourself are not organized or if you are not interested or willing to participate in the process and you drag your feet. This is the time period where people kind of get stuck and where the fees are really cranked up because it's the gathering of documents and information and depending on how everybody participates, really kind of drives the cost, fees and timing. Assuming that we get everything we need, then we move to if we're settling, you can then participate maybe in something like mediation, which is where you go and you meet with a neutral to work out the disagreements between the two of you in the hopes of resolving everything. That's one way to settle, another way to settle is what we call direct settlement. That's where you or your lawyer directly negotiate and settle the issues with your spouse or with your spouse's lawyer. That's another way to settle. And then on the other side, thinking about litigation, that's kind of the traditional process, which is we both appear in front of court and put forth our evidence and testimony, and the judge makes an ultimate decision.
Kimberly Cook:
In either scenario, whether it's settlement or trial, at the end of the day, you have your final divorce papers, which are entered as a judgment and signed off by the court. So that's a really kind of broad brush nutshell of kind of the process. Each period in that process can be short or it can be long. And, again, that all comes down to how everybody is showing up in the process, making a good faith effort to do everything they can to resolve things and also whether or not there are what I call the distractions and the distractions are things like my spouse drained all of the money from our account. Now I have to run into court and ask for temporary support or we're not getting along and my spouse put hands on me. So now I've got to run into court on an emergency motion to kick them out of the house or for an order of protection. So those kinds of things can pop up. So it's almost like playing a game of whack a mole, which is you've got that hammer and the moles at the arcade game and you're hitting 1, but one just keeps popping up.
Kimberly Cook:
That happens in cases where not everybody is making a good faith effort. So nutshell, the process is pretty simple, but what takes time, money and energy is when we spend a lot of time on these distractions and also where people don't play nicely and do what they're supposed to do. So that's the process. And it can be short and amicable or it can be long and disastrous. You pick and if you don't wanna spend a lot of money, I suggest you go the route that is amicable. If you have money to burn, go the other way. But that's how you get divorced.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
That's really helpful. I've I've never heard anyone break it down so clearly, and I can see it, like, there's these two paths. We can either go to court or we can have a settlement. And the things I mean, you hear stories or you see on TV because it's more dramatic, these long drawn out divorces. It doesn't necessarily have to be that way. I'm just I'm curious in your experience, what's the shortest you've seen divorce proceedings go for and what's the longest that you've seen?
Kimberly Cook:
So the shortest, I would probably say it took the process about 45 days and that was only because of court dates in filing times. And it's really because the two of them had done a lot of the legwork. They sat down before they retained lawyers. They had worked out their parenting agreement. They had worked out the finances, and they really came in saying, listen. We have a pretty clear handle on how we want to separate and what this should look like for us. We just need help getting it formalized, and that actually happens more than people think it does. Now it doesn't always happen in 45 days.
Kimberly Cook:
Sometimes it, you know, 6 months, maybe a year. And some of that, again, has to do with court time and filing. But on the flip side so I think my personal longest case that I had, I think it took 5 years for the case to end. And within that time period, I had been not pregnant, was then pregnant, had the baby and came back and my daughter then turned, I think, 2 right when we were finalizing the divorce. And so my client had seen me through all of these things in my own life and he still wasn't divorced. And that was had a lot to do with just how many distractions we had throughout the case. There was also some other complexities and challenges that came about that were outside of everybody's control. But I would say, you know, 5 years in my personal experience has been the longest.
Kimberly Cook:
But let me say, nobody should be getting a divorce for 5 years. That that's just outrageous.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
Yeah. That is not by any means the goal, but it is an interesting data point. Thanks for being willing to share that. So this podcast is called Inner Warmup. We talk about well-being and self-care and mental health. And I can imagine someone listening to this series or listening to this episode and be like, why are we breaking down the ins and outs of divorce even at a high level? And it's because big life changes especially something like this where you committed to building a life with someone and then you realized that life is not going to happen the way that you pictured, it can take a toll on you. It can absolutely impact your mental health and your well-being. And I'm wondering in your experience walking alongside people through divorce, how have you seen their mental health impacted? Whether that's before they officially decide to move forward with divorce or during the proceedings or I don't know how much insight you have into how they're feeling after they get divorced as well.
Kimberly Cook:
So one of the reasons that I have been in this practice area for so long is because I have the honor of seeing somebody really kind of come back to life. So I do not have a green thumb at all. Okay? But I will say that there is something to be said about nursing a plant kind of back to life. Right? So that's the process in divorce. When somebody comes to meet with a divorce attorney, most of the time, they are overwhelmed. They're sad. They're confused, depressed, scared, all the things. And they are not who they really are.
Kimberly Cook:
So you are meeting somebody at a very kind of low wilted point in their life. And throughout the divorce process, being able to see them start to water and flower in a way that gets them back to who they really are so that by the time the divorce is ending and they're heading off into, you know, the next stages of their life, that you have helped them kind of flourish and grow. And that's really what you want in the divorce process. Now, make no mistake. It's not all sunshine and roses by any means. It's hard. And I think mental health is certainly impacted throughout the journey. It's very similar to stages of grief.
Kimberly Cook:
So sometimes you're angry that you're even here. Other times, you're so in denial about this process. Other times you are kind of bargaining, meaning what if I do this? Maybe our marriage would go back to the fun days or, you know, what if we pause and ignore the fact that I'm unhappy? And so I think what's really helpful is having a good support team, and that team should include a mental health provider, a therapist. If you are somebody who is a spiritual, you know, really leaning into your spiritual practice, being physically okay. That could look like yoga. That could look like running a marathon. Whatever makes you feel good and gets kind of blood pumping through you is really important. You need those things throughout.
Kimberly Cook:
And you also need, I think, one trusted person. And the reason I say one is because you don't want too many people in this space weighing in as to how you should feel, what you should do, what you'd having one person who you can just cry, you can scream, then release or they just hold you, whatever it is. But having that one person in your life is, I think, a game changer for many people through this process. But certainly having a good therapist is really helpful because remember, your lawyer is not your therapist. And despite the fact that they know intimate things about you and are helping you navigate the legal process, they cannot help you with the mental health exploration challenges and making sure that that's okay. That's not their lane. So you do need to get somebody who is in your corner in that way. But it is really tremendous to see how people navigate through the process throughout.
Kimberly Cook:
And I will tell you, I do see and very still in touch with a lot of my former clients and it's fantastic to see how they're doing and thriving and living and enjoying life. And so there is light at the end of the tunnel, then seeing somebody through it is is such an honor and a privilege for somebody in this space as myself.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
I'm glad that for you, you get to to have that touch point because I would imagine, especially if it's a a case where you're going through litigation, you're going to court, it could be a little bit heavier. And so to see that the work that you're putting in is going towards someone reconnecting to themselves, and there's a happy ending that you're a part of instead of being the person who's, like, always in the trenches with the people who haven't fully seen the light yet.
Kimberly Cook:
Make no mistake. Right? Being a divorce professional is not for the faint of heart because you are seeing people at their worst. It's tough work. It's not easy. Every phone call is emotional and overwhelming and upsetting. And I certainly have to set boundaries and parameters for myself and anybody who's in this space. That's the only way you can actually do this work. But I do think that knowing that there's light at the end of the tunnel, that you can get over the hurdle. I think that helps people who are considering divorce.
Kimberly Cook:
I think it's scary enough as it is to be navigating an unknown process, but to always focus in on it's gonna be horrible and everything's gonna be doom and gloom. I don't think that's a fair assessment. I think it's really important to be honest that people fall in love after being divorced. There's new life after divorce. This is a chapter in the book of your life. It's not the entire book. So I wanna make sure that listeners understand that it can and will be okay despite what you may be feeling.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
That's such a good reminder. I wanna circle back to some of what you said in terms of the support that people could be looking for as they're navigating divorce. We're big fans of therapy at Inner Workout, so I love that you mentioned having a therapist, having a great lawyer such as yourself. And that last piece about having one trusted person. I'm curious for the people who are listening, who might be invited into that role of trusted person in their friends or family member's divorce, what advice would you have for them to be the best source of support possible?
Kimberly Cook:
Thank you for asking that because I think oftentimes people overlook that. And here's what I would say. If you have been identified as that person, be honest with yourself. Do you have the emotional capacity to be that person? Because if you can't, then just be honest about it. Right? And that's okay because divorce is a marathon. It's not a sprint. And what I've seen is friends jump out there, like, I'm gonna be your end all, be all through this process, and they themselves burn out and get overwhelmed. So if you are in this space, you have to set boundaries.
Kimberly Cook:
You have to be clear about what those boundaries are, which means I want to be there for you. However, I do have a full time job, so I can't be on the phone and FaceTime with you throughout. I know you're sad. I might be able to kind of text. I cannot spend every night for the next 6 months with you. What I can do is maybe 2 nights if that's what you need or we can talk about things other than the divorce. That's really important. Every interaction cannot and should not be about the divorce.
Kimberly Cook:
So helping them see that is going to be really important. But you also have to remember you have your own life. You have your own family. You have your own needs. And so setting up those boundaries are going to be really important for you. It's also going to be really important that you're able to stay in your lane, Whether or not you are a therapist or social worker, a clinician of any type in the role of kind of support friend, that's what you're doing. You can't be both the therapist and the best friend. That doesn't go well at all.
Kimberly Cook:
So if you have a friend and you're being that support friend, then help that friend get a therapist. If you are someone who enjoys having kind of quiet time and your own outlets, don't lose sight of those because you can't be your best self and be a good support when you are not yourself in a good space. So one of the things I say all the time is they tell us on the plane, you put your oxygen mask on first before you help somebody else. It's the same thing here. When you're stepping into this role, you have to make sure that you are good first before you can extend that help and that support. And if you find yourself coming up short for air or just not doing well, you have to be able to step back and say, I love you, but I want to be able to give my best and I can't do that at this time. You have to be able to do that. And it's okay if your friend can't yet receive that and they then kind of maybe ignore you for a while or it impacts your friendship, they'll come back later.
Kimberly Cook:
Trust me, I've seen it happen. They're in a very vulnerable, scary space. And the way that people react during this time period is often not really who they are. And so just call it as it is, which is, you know what? They're going through a divorce, and I'm gonna let them go through this time and I will catch them on the other side. So make sure that you're good before you step in this role, knowing your boundaries, sticking within those boundaries so that you can be the support for them throughout the process.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
I love that you shared that. That is so aligned with the things that we talk about here on this podcast and at Inner Workout in general. This is such a a tender time for the person who's going through the divorce, and so we we need to be honest about the capacity that we have and in your examples, I just wanna echo how clear you were about here's the support that I can offer. Being honest with yourself first and then being honest with the other person rather than what some of us can have the tendency to do is just pile on and assume that we can keep adding more. But if we do that in this instance, it's not just putting us on a path towards burnout. It could be potentially harmful for the person who's navigating the divorce. So so thank you for calling that out.
Kimberly Cook:
Thank you for asking that. Again, it's an overlooked issue, and so I I appreciate you saying, wait. You know, what about those people who are trying to offer support? It's really important to shine a light on that. So thank you for asking that.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
I really appreciate just the wisdom that you've shared and, honestly, the clarity that you've given me, I have a much better sense of how divorce works and what are some signs, some conversations I could be having with myself. I'm speaking kind of from the, like, theoretical, not me literally, even though who knows, maybe at some point I will be considering getting divorced, as my husband sits in our home office in the next room.
Kimberly Cook:
Let's hope not. Let's hope not. But, you know It's a possibility. Yeah. And that's it's okay.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
Yeah. I think that's a reminder. And as I was looking at this the stats, a lot of marriages end in divorce, and I think we all can be better equipped to be that trusted person or to be a more supportive friend or family member if we have an understanding of what the process looks like. I know that you have so much more to offer when it comes to this topic. We've really just, like, skimmed the surface of it. So if people want to keep learning from you about divorce and how to find your way through it, where can they find you?
Kimberly Cook:
Yes. Thank you. I can be found on growngirldivorce.com or my podcast, which is Grown Girl Divorce. And it is designed to educate and empower women and particularly black women, women of color through the process and their resources that are available to help you navigate the process. And we also share personal stories anonymously for women who have been through the process and we call it the "Girl, I've Been There Too" series. And I think it's it's fantastic because you're hearing someone who has been through the process and they are sharing their experience with you. It's not about their ex, but it's about their journey and kind of giving you, I think, some guideposts to help you navigate if you are in that space. So growngirldivorce.com, that's where you can find our resources and information.
Kimberly Cook:
And then, of course, the podcast is available on all podcast players. So thank you very much for having me on. This has been fantastic. Happy to, you know, come back anytime and chat about divorce or the premarital things that we should be thinking about so that we're not getting a divorce. Happy to talk about any of those those topics with you.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
That sounds great. Thank you again, Kimberly. Inner Warmup is a collaborative effort. It's hosted by me, Taylor Elyse Morrison. Danielle Spaulding provides production support, and it's edited by Carolina Duque. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend. And if you're looking to continue your inner work, our free Take Care assessment is a great place to start. On that note, take care.