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Welcome to Flex Space Dialogues, your one-stop podcast for deep dives into the world of flexible workspaces. Join us for engaging one-hour episodes where we invite business leaders from both workspace providers and clients to share best practices, strategies, and learnings.
In each episode, we’ll discuss how the flex space industry is evolving and what the future holds. Whether you’re a workspace provider, a business considering flex space solutions, or just curious about the future of work, our podcast offers practical insights and expert opinions to help you navigate this dynamic landscape.
Christoph Fahle (00:00)
Hello, everybody. This is Christoph. I'm here today with Kristinna Kristensen from Xplora. And I invited her to join me for a videocast to talk about her experience with FlexSpace, coworking. She's the general manager from Xplora in Germany. And welcome, Kristinna. Maybe you introduce yourself a little bit more.
Kristinna Kristensen (00:23)
Yeah, thank you so much. Excited to ⁓ share some insights on coworking space and flexible space with you today. As you said, my name is Kristina. I'm Danish, but moved to Hamburg just less than a year ago to oversee the general business of the DACH region. I've been working
for more than 10 years within sales and marketing. My passion has always been the commercial side of the business. How can we grow, optimize, how can we make a journey for our customers and just a general good customer experience. So it's always been in that. I worked a little bit in the travel ⁓ industry and now I'm working within the tech industry. I think that's the future. ⁓ And I think there is a lot of...
great ⁓ opportunities within tech and you just see how it's rapidly growing. So I think that is where I can really combine both the sales and marketing part, but also with a very futuristic industry as well.
Christoph Fahle (01:35)
Cool, thank you. to understand, usually we talk, I talk a lot to workplace managers. And in this case, you're the general manager of Xplora. Maybe you can share a little bit about what Xplora does, how big the company is in total, how many people work there and how big the German office in Hamburg is.
Kristinna Kristensen (01:57)
Yeah, sure. So Xplora is what we call the child's first phone, but it's actually designed as a smartwatch. So what our vision and mission is, is to really find a great balance between screen time and play time and also have a safe introduction to the digital world, especially for the kids who actually starts to
start to school, go back and forth between school and home. And we have seen there is, ⁓ we saw there was a, there was a lack within the actually ⁓ current setup or current devices that was available. There is a lot of smartphones. Well, in general, technology has been designed for adults ⁓ and not for kids. And that's what we wanted to change that ⁓ paradigm a little bit.
That's how we came up with the smartwatch for kids. So you have all the normal functions as a feature phone, but you do not have access to social media and internet, so you can still be in contact with your loved ones, but within a very limited environment.
Christoph Fahle (03:13)
And I understand it originally was a startup from Denmark, right? That grew very fast.
Kristinna Kristensen (03:21)
So it's a startup
from Norway. Yeah. Yeah. And it's been growing rapidly over the last few years. Our founder, Sten Eschirbach, he couldn't find his son in a shopping mall for maybe it was probably only 40 minutes, but for him it felt like eternity. And that's where he came up with this ⁓ great device that, it would be great to actually be able to locate my child.
Christoph Fahle (03:24)
I'm sorry, yes, no way.
Kristinna Kristensen (03:51)
without him having a phone. At that time, think he was four or between four and six years old. And then since then, it just kind of blew up within Norway, where at least one ⁓ in five children wears a smart watch from Xplora Now. And then we have grown to the rest of the Nordics. Then we went to Germany, where we have been for the last five or six years.
We are also trying to establish ourselves in the US, but we are quite big in Europe and especially in the northern part of Europe. We are market leader within this category.
Christoph Fahle (04:32)
And so how many people are there in total and how many of those are working in the office that you're responsible of?
Kristinna Kristensen (04:40)
Yeah.
So we are in total around 135 employees globally, whereas we just hit 10 employees in Germany. So we have our main headquarters in Norway where we have all the central functions and roles. And then we do have around
seven or eight local offices within Europe and US where we are very local and how can we actually support and market our products within the local markets. And Germany is definitely the biggest local market that we have because of course of the size of the DACH region and Germany in general. But also we have you know quite
good market share in this region as well. So that obviously also leaves us to have more resources allocated to that.
Christoph Fahle (05:39)
Yeah, I mean, my niece has an Xplora watch. I learned after I met you. And I have two kids. And definitely sometimes I'm worried that they... Because in Berlin, we have this huge airport and in the summer it's full of people. And so far I always write the mobile number on their arm to not lose them. But maybe the Xplora would be a smarter solution.
Kristinna Kristensen (05:42)
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Christoph Fahle (06:09)
Okay, so this means business is booming and company is growing fast. Now, when we met, I remember you had a permanent office that you rented or you sublet, I'm not remembering fully, in Hamburg and you were looking for a different office and then you found your dream office in Fora. So why?
Kristinna Kristensen (06:25)
We rented it.
Christoph Fahle (06:36)
Why were you open or looking to coworking and what was the problem with the other office initially? And also what were you worried about? Maybe that could happen.
Kristinna Kristensen (06:46)
Yeah, we had actually quite an amazing office space in Eimsbüttel, but it was, you know, we were growing quite rapidly within the local teams in Germany. And then it was also a, you know, since we are growing so rapidly, we kind of...
And that has been kind of the culture. are just, you know, we need to find a roof over our head. We need, you know, to have a plug for our computer. We need a wifi so we can get back to get down to business. But then once we started to have this really good operations running and we start to add to the team, we needed something that was a little bit more sustainable long-term. And the office we had in Eimsputtel was a older restaurant slash cafe. It has
great lighting, but we had one office in one side of the entrance and then another side of the other side of the entrance. So we actually had to walk past the entrance up to the apartment. So you had to use a key and the coffee machine was over there and we were also very separated within the teams. So I thought, okay, now it's I'm new here. It's probably a good start for everyone that we get a fresh start also physically.
So I thought let's look for something else. And I had plan A, plan one and plan two. And that was either the coworking environment or finding something ⁓ that is a little bit more permanent, our own office kind of setup. And there was a lot of thoughts running through my head because we are growing.
We have also looking into acquiring another company. So what does that mean in one, two years? Do we want an office space we can grow into? Or are we going to centralize a lot of roles so we actually have to minimize locally? We don't know how the future would look like. So that's why I wanted to go forward with the coworking opportunity that was within.
within Hamburg because it's so easy to scale up and scale down if needed. ⁓ But that also means that I had to take some conversations with the team, right? Because they were very used to having their own space, their own coffee machine, their own toilets, their own meeting rooms. And that was definitely some conversation we had to go back and forth, show them the office space, show them the opportunities there is with coworking environment as well.
So it was not so much maybe negative sides to it, but it's more something we needed to adapt to on a day-to-day basis.
Christoph Fahle (09:35)
What would be the thing that would win them over in the end? Is it visiting the space or what is it, the coffee? What do you think? mean, of course, nothing is perfect. There's always something that's criticized. But in general, what was the positive ⁓ aspects that you thought would win them over?
Kristinna Kristensen (09:46)
Mm.
I think when we went to see the office space, that's when they started to like, ⁓ could see the opportunities within it. And I think also us getting a room on the office space in Fora that could have up to 12 people. And at that time we were only eight. So actually we also had a little bit more space. I think there were a little...
frightened to be too cramped and too close and also not be able to go and really go into depth with some projects. There is lot of space within Fora where you can sit and don't get so disturbed or book a meeting room. So I think when they started to see that the possibilities are actually quite the same, but now you say hi to people you don't know on the hallway or you share toilets or you share coffee machine.
And I think that was something they needed to get used to, especially in the beginning. They're like, oh, a random person I don't know said good morning to me. And, you know, those were the kind of changes everyone needed to adapt to. But I think in many ways, long-term, it's always good to get a little bit out of your comfort zone, but still be able to go into your own office and close the door if we really need to focus on something or have our own little team meetings. We still have the privacy to do that.
Christoph Fahle (11:20)
And, you know, from my own experience, I know that especially for you have a lot of ⁓ small things that the little snacks they change every month. Or also the I think one of the highest qualities of fit out when it comes to ⁓ meeting infrastructure and also soundproofing is this does any of those stuff stick out? Or
Kristinna Kristensen (11:32)
Yeah?
Christoph Fahle (11:49)
really like this now did surprise you in the course and also everybody in the team is do they really like the chocolate things or the cover is there anything specific that you could say or is it just the overall experience?
Kristinna Kristensen (11:59)
Thank
I think it's more less the overall experience. I remember everyone said in the beginning, ooh, I really like the coffee. Of course, you know, the coffee is extremely important when you work in an office space. And there's nothing worse than having, you know, bad coffee that can ruin your day. So I think that was definitely something I was like, ooh, okay, that's a positive. They really like the coffee.
Christoph Fahle (12:15)
Yeah.
Kristinna Kristensen (12:29)
But I think it is just in general the overall experience and also being able to ⁓ easily jump into a meeting room if that's what you need. I know for example in our Oslo office they are also expanding so rapidly that we have a lot of meeting rooms that are never available. So you sometimes need to jump into a corner and have a very ⁓ important phone call which is not optimal. ⁓
we don't have that kind of experience within the office space here in Hamburg. in that sense, it's been smooth sailing, I would say, going from our former office setup to the new one.
Christoph Fahle (13:11)
What do you miss about your old office?
Kristinna Kristensen (13:14)
⁓ I really like the area. It was quite very cool. it's just different, The Eimsbüttel area where there's a lot of nice restaurants just around the corner, it was a little bit more calm and it's quite cool also when we get visitors from outside, from our colleagues from other sides, you know, they saw a part of Hamburg they normally wouldn't see. So in that way, that's something we miss.
But now it's just different, now you're just downtown and you can go do some shopping before you go home. So there are other ⁓ aspects of it as well.
Christoph Fahle (13:53)
Yeah, in Berlin, we see that a lot of clients, they ask for lunch spots and the you know, the cultural aspects of being in a nice neighborhood that you that probably you would also visit if you were a tourist in the city, because it's nice and interesting. And I can see how the space operators they I mean, they know that but how they could
Kristinna Kristensen (14:11)
Mm.
Christoph Fahle (14:22)
open many more locations to all. Because I guess you probably would have chosen the one, if everything else was the same, you would have chosen the one in a nicer neighborhood, right?
Kristinna Kristensen (14:31)
Yeah,
I think we were looking to see if we could find a coworking environment space in the same area. That was not ⁓ possible. So then we had to kind of find ⁓ an alternative option, which is also good. yeah, think, you know, of course, area is super... Excuse me.
Christoph Fahle (14:49)
Yeah.
Kristinna Kristensen (14:56)
super important, but it was also easier for my team to actually get to the new location now.
Christoph Fahle (15:02)
yeah. OK, interesting. And now, how does it fit into the general strategy or idea of Xplora globally? Are you the only team in the coworking space so far? How is everybody else working?
Kristinna Kristensen (15:20)
So in Denmark where I was as well was also a coworking environment. That's a smaller team. Then we also have a team in Spain and in UK where we actually only have one representative. So they are working from home. ⁓ I would say in general it is coworking environment we are using. For example, we work in New York where we have our US office. ⁓
And then we also have another kind of coworking setup in Sweden. But our offices where we have our central functions in Oslo and in Trondheim in Norway, that is the more traditional ⁓ office space that we have. ⁓ Reason for that can be many. think...
In many ways the Norwegian work culture is a little bit more traditional in that sense as well as I also understand there isn't that many coworking opportunities within Oslo and especially Trondheim because it's a smaller ⁓ city. So I think that's the reason for the current setup.
Christoph Fahle (16:37)
Okay. And now if you think about ⁓ growing in Germany, I mean, basically your area of influence, how would you, I don't know if you think about it, but if you grow to 20, 30, 40 people, is there any idea how you would design that? they be in different cities or would they...
Kristinna Kristensen (17:04)
Mm.
Christoph Fahle (17:05)
What's the scaling strategy? If you can talk about it. I don't know, maybe.
Kristinna Kristensen (17:09)
I
think I can talk a little bit overall. think within our industry, do see within our competition as well that you start to centralize quite a lot of roles. Not saying that we are going to scale down on current employees, but more if we are growing, then we are probably working a little bit more centralized. And that I see quite in general, especially after
COVID, you start to actually have more of a lean organization. And that means that most of it has to be centralized. I know that within the Nordics region, Nordics set up in Xplora, we are not looking so much locally, but more on a Nordically level. How can we actually have cross ⁓ market functions? But that doesn't mean that it has to be only Norway. It can still be, you know, a...
Christoph Fahle (18:02)
Hmm.
Kristinna Kristensen (18:08)
marketing manager in Denmark overseeing some functions within the Nordics. So if we are going to scale up, which we of course are going to do, it will probably never be, you know, 100 or 200 percent scale up. But if we are, will definitely be, especially in the DACH region, become more of a different cities where we will have smaller setups and also as we are right now, acquiring a new
Christoph Fahle (18:24)
you
Kristinna Kristensen (18:38)
company that also have a set up in Germany, we need to kind of figure out how is that gonna look like because their office is, I don't know, 700 kilometers away from Hamburg. So we need to kind of figure out how that setup is gonna be like. And that is, especially within Xplora, we are only seven, eight years old. And I see within many companies, it's not until after 15 years, you actually start to see some stability and understanding how
Christoph Fahle (18:44)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Kristinna Kristensen (19:08)
things are gonna work. within the next seven, eight years, I think we have to be able to scale up and down quite quickly and be very flexible, both when it comes to work functions, but also our physical environment as well.
Christoph Fahle (19:24)
Yeah, and in this case, I mean, I can't understand how any company these days could predict the man the headcount over the next five years, because it's always a fluctuation. And you will you have an office for five years, you will always have either too many or too little space. And, okay, so do you see any
Kristinna Kristensen (19:44)
Yeah, it's either way. Yeah.
Christoph Fahle (19:53)
In terms of productivity or in terms of culture, if you compare the office in Oslo to maybe your office, it's different size, of course. But do you see any differences that would be influenced by either the coworking environment or the permanent office in a positive or negative way?
Kristinna Kristensen (20:18)
⁓ I think in many ways, I've always worked in quite smaller teams or smaller offices ⁓ and you just see a different kind of ⁓ cooperation because normally when it's local, we all work within sales and marketing, whereas
you kind of have that synergy and holistic picture of what everyone is doing. Whereas in our headquarters in Oslo, we have finance, we have logistics, we have like so many different aspects that people are kind of already clustering in their own little ⁓ segment. So I think in that way, also having the coworking space, there is kind of like this team spirit that are being built.
without anything externally really because we are in here to focus on sales and marketing within the DACH region for example. But then also being able to you know we have good conversation with our neighbors ⁓ and getting some insights in what is it actually that you are doing and what are we doing and we had one of our neighbors he's also a customer.
So he came in and was like, I cannot get this to work. okay, let's, you know, let's have a look and you get, you know, premium customer service here. And then you start to have these kind of fun conversations over the coffee and it kind of gets you a little bit out of your comfort zone because it can be the negative side of being such a small team is also not looking at the horizon, but being in your own little bubble. And by having neighbors that are not a part of
Christoph Fahle (21:37)
Ha
Kristinna Kristensen (22:02)
our company kind of makes you, you know, carry yourself a little bit differently because when you are meeting the neighbors, you are professional. It's not just a colleague, but it's actually a potential customer as well. So in that sense, it's quite good to be able to look over your own company and get some insights and inspiration. you're doing that. Maybe we can adapt that to our setup.
⁓ So in that way it's really good to get that insights where you don't get that in the Oslo office for example because you don't have those neighbors you're just doing your own thing.
Christoph Fahle (22:40)
I just, mean, I'm trying to get some negatives out there, but you just, you already converted to just, I mean, I love it. I agree, no, but gotta be balanced. And that's why I'm especially asking because I'm biased towards coworking anyways, but I understand that you really, you really like it and believe in it. And so one other aspect I sometimes ⁓ notice is that in fact, there are a lot of people out there who either
Kristinna Kristensen (22:44)
you
Yeah.
Christoph Fahle (23:11)
have maybe they have never been in the coworking space. But they think coworking is one thing, but actually it's the other, you know? And how was it in your team? Did people visit the coworking space the first time or was there people with previous experience? Was there like prejudices?
Kristinna Kristensen (23:40)
Yeah, think actually everyone in the team have never worked in a coworking environment before. So there was some who was a little bit skeptical to the setup. And I think, you know, in many ways, changes people take very differently. So sometimes when there are changes, it can quickly be a potential negative thing because then you need to adapt.
So, you know, when we went to see the office and I think, you know, them actually seeing the design, how nice it looks, ⁓ and also trying to explain to them how much time we are all actually saving because someone needs to buy the toilet paper, someone needs to clean the coffee machine, we need to have something on the walls, there is something going on over here. So I think when they actually start to see that we don't have to worry about...
any of that, we can actually focus on our own things. They were ⁓ becoming more ⁓ open to it. I think the main downside from their side was this, how can we get meeting rooms and will they be able to really go into depth with some projects and some quite nice areas, quiet areas to sit. And when they saw that
those were the possibilities, then ⁓ they were quite happy about it. Obviously, there was a downside to that. that is also, of course, we get some credits we can use to book meeting rooms. But I've also told them, don't book just for 30 minutes every day, because then our credits will run out and then our rent is going to be a little bit more, quite higher. So I told you, be a little bit cynical about that. And that can be probably the only
Christoph Fahle (25:28)
Yeah.
Kristinna Kristensen (25:36)
thing that ⁓ we need to be aware of, whereas before they could just jump in and out as they wanted to. Where here I'm a little bit more sensitive to booking of meeting rooms for smaller periods during the day.
Christoph Fahle (25:44)
Yeah.
Yeah.
We hear that a lot, the meeting room issue. It's not a big deal breaker, but it's something it's in your mind. Because it's something you have to coordinate with ⁓ the other people in the whole building. And if you have your own office, you don't have to do that. On the other side, I can definitely see a trend of coworking operators adding more and more meeting booths ⁓ and to them.
and also meeting rooms to offset that a little. I nearly feel the coworking and flex office industry has to educate even more what is there on the market because what started like 15 years ago with some kind of community driven spaces is now a very diverse ⁓ ecosystem where you can have.
Kristinna Kristensen (26:33)
Yeah.
Yes.
Christoph Fahle (26:47)
Four Seasons Hotel-like experiences as well as a Hacker Space experience that's community organized. And I feel there's not yet the understanding that this is... Sometimes people also don't take it seriously, I think.
Kristinna Kristensen (26:52)
Mmm.
Yeah, and
I think also it's a very good point and also seeing into the future whereas right now there is a lot of debate going on, not just within Xplora, but in many companies like work from home, going into the office. companies are looking into should we have a very strict policy? Should it be very open? And for me, that's a personal preference, but for me, I love to come into the office.
Sometimes I take a day at home, but 90 % of the time I'm in the office. And I think that is something is very important to really look at as a company is that, okay, if we want people to come into the office, we need to create kind of an environment that is ⁓ super cool for people like having a gym, for example, you know, the snacks, the coffee is good. So people actually are excited to go into work.
because they know they have to work, but what are the benefits of drinking your own barista coffee at home versus getting a really good coffee in the office or have really nice environment where you can really focus on the things that you need to focus on? And I think that's where coworking environment have a huge advantage on or really adapting quicker than having your own office space because you need at least three people working full time to make that happen.
Christoph Fahle (28:30)
Yes. Yeah, talking about costs. I wonder you you did you ever make make the math? Is it an investment into making people happy and more productive? Or is it also to what extent is it also a way of saving costs because you don't need the office manager and everything ⁓ additionally to pay for? How was it for you?
Kristinna Kristensen (28:54)
Yeah, for me, was definitely more focused on environment and ⁓ employee satisfaction, And also retention of employees, but also when we are going to recruit new employees, all this employer branding, I think that was my main focus rather than actually saving costs. But of course, also, again, if we are going to scale up and down,
I don't have to think about working so much on extending an existing office or turn down a lease on another one to find, you know, it's also a lot of ⁓ man hours that are calculated in that sense. So it's not just on a rent basis, but also where am I going to put my resources? Is it to really...
grow the brand and the business or is it to really to go and you know be a part-time ⁓ office administrator and coffee machine maker and all of these things so it's you know to find that great balance but I would say priority number one is to create a creative fun
a nice place to work so people are actually excited to get to work besides their exciting job task of course.
Christoph Fahle (30:19)
I feel I, you know, ⁓ bigger companies, they always look at their vast empty office spaces. And they think about ⁓ flex office ⁓ solutions as a way to save, cut office costs and also have all the benefits from it. And I just realized now listening to you, fast growing startups, tech companies, for them, it's just
Kristinna Kristensen (30:39)
Hmm.
Christoph Fahle (30:48)
more about ease of mind for those managers and leadership that want to move fast and focus on the core business. You don't want to think about the color of the walls or where the desks should be. I think that's a way more important aspect there, especially for fast moving. Is there any? So now you are the general manager for the DAH reason, German speaking countries.
Kristinna Kristensen (30:58)
Mm.
Christoph Fahle (31:17)
If you think about somebody in your role ⁓ being in a similar situation, building a team fast, has to be, you I mean, ⁓ you really have to focus on differences. Is there any advice that you can give when looking for workspace to make it easier or to also avoid mistakes or what you should have known before, stuff like that?
Kristinna Kristensen (31:45)
I would definitely say, you probably won't like to hear that when you are working in a fast growing business, you want to make quick decisions. But I think in this case, take your time. It's okay if it's, you I think the first time you and I spoke was in the summer and I didn't really move until October and didn't sign until December. So it actually was six months in the making.
Because of course, you can always move out again if you want to. But I think for a team working in a fast growing company with a lot of changes all the time, it's also nice to have something that is quite stable. And that is normally the home of the company. know, this is where you go and then maybe you can move within the property. That's not as crazy. So I would say, you know, take your time, really look into the options.
the pros and cons of each place and then also speak to your team what is most important for them because you want to meet their needs. What is it? Is it the location? Is it a gym membership? Is it parking? know, like all of these things and you will never be able to meet all criteria. I definitely had to cut down on some of those, but really get into the core of
what is mostly important for people and try to meet their needs because they're more open to it, but also more excited actually to try something new. So even though when you are working in a fast growing company, you're more likely to also make quick decisions. But I would say in this scenario, take your time and go and see as many ⁓ offices as you can and then try to use both.
the traditional workspace, see what's possible there, and also the coworking. That's what I did. And after seeing the two options, it was definitely much clearer to me which direction I wanted to go.
Christoph Fahle (33:57)
Okay, so really nice closing statement. Cool. Is there anything else that we should have talked about that I missed or that is on your mind when thinking about workspace and companies?
Kristinna Kristensen (34:00)
Yeah.
No, don't think so. Maybe the only thing I was... I don't know if I was surprised, but well, a little bit surprised was actually also the pricing of the coworking. Maybe I initially thought it would be quite cheaper than it was. Again, like I didn't have to cut down on our office ⁓ expenses.
But I thought it would be cheaper. then when start to look into actually all the services and everything that is included, is ⁓ value for money. But I think some might have the idea that it is much cheaper to do coworking, which it is not in many ways. Well, it can be, but then you also get the ⁓ quality kind of depends on the cost as well. So I think maybe that's also something to
to look into again it depends on setup and what you need.
Christoph Fahle (35:09)
Yeah.
It's, I just had another revelation because if you come from a startup background, you are used to doing things yourself. You, guess as a founder myself, I know that in the first year I will try to organize everything myself to save money, depending also on the funding. And then it seems expensive to pay 700 euro per desk or whatever it is. Having said that there is
Kristinna Kristensen (35:32)
Good.
Yeah.
Christoph Fahle (35:41)
startup coworking spaces that charge 350 per desk, but they have offered different service levels. When you come from the other side where you have a larger organization with all the functions, usually the average cost per desk that they have in their profit and loss is, if you calculate it, it's way higher than what a space, a coworking space operator ⁓ thinks, but you really have to...
Kristinna Kristensen (35:44)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Christoph Fahle (36:10)
set up an Excel sheet. I do this sometimes for clients where you have to list all the things and then they're like, yeah, this is also in there. this is also in there. no, no, it makes sense. But as people usually look at the square meter prices that they pay in a traditional office and then in the coworking space, if you look at your own office, it's small and you have a high per square meter value if you just look at that.
Kristinna Kristensen (36:20)
Where are you?
Hmm.
Mm.
Yeah.
Christoph Fahle (36:39)
But yeah, but it's definitely true. It's communication and education about what the price is and what is included that sometimes is lagging. We try to make a better job there.
Kristinna Kristensen (36:49)
Yeah,
well, I think, you know, it's kind of fluid, right? And I think, you know, what you don't always remember as well is the man hours you put in these ⁓ intangible things, like checking up on all these things or calling the electrician because something is broken or always having that back in mind. ⁓
Christoph Fahle (37:18)
Yeah.
Kristinna Kristensen (37:18)
cost a lot of creativity and resources depending on what kind of company setup you have.
Christoph Fahle (37:26)
Yeah, exactly.