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The Honest Money Show is your guide to understanding what money really is — and why today’s system isn’t working. Hosted by Anja Dragovic, this show cuts through the noise to explore how money shapes our lives, where it’s gone wrong, and what a better future could look like. Along the way, you'll discover how Bitcoin fits into the bigger picture — not as hype, but as a serious response to a broken system. Whether you're curious, skeptical, or already down the
Hi, Andy.
Hi.
Welcome to the
Honest Money Show.
Hi.
Thank you for having me.
I am so excited
to have you on.
We both share a passion,
which is superannuation
funds and bitcoin.
So I thought it would
be really, really great
to have you on
to talk about
these things,
because I know
we're both quite engaged
in the community,
in this space,
and it's something
that is very dear
to my heart.
So, once again,
thanks for coming on.
I, I wanted to perhaps
maybe start with,
helping
Australians understand
that there is an option
for them
to move their Bitcoin
into super.
Why they should do that
and how to go about it.
So perhaps let's
start with the why.
What is
the performance,
that has happened
in Bitcoin compared
to the
average superannuation
fund in Australia?
Yeah, it's
a great question.
And,
I spend a lot of my days
talking to,
clients of the Bitcoin
advisor and,
talking to them
about retirement
and superannuation and,
fundamentally it comes
initially from
a place of, I'm
a bitcoin or,
and I want more Bitcoin.
So people often
look at the
portfolio of wealth
that they have
or the money
that they have.
And superannuation
is usually
a kind of glaringly
underused
and misunderstood,
part of someone's
portfolio.
And when they understand
that they want
more Bitcoin,
then it becomes a very,
you know, obvious
place to go
and look and go, oh,
well,
how do I buy
Bitcoin with
my superannuation.
In managed funds
they kind of average 8
to 12% per year.
So performance isn't,
you know, comparable
to bitcoin obviously.
Bitcoin is more volatile
and that's
a consideration.
But fundamentally,
you know,
there is always
an option
to be able
to move
your superannuation
out of a managed fund,
set up a
self-managed fund,
and then you
can allocate
to whatever you like,
including Bitcoin.
And so,
increasingly lots
and lots
and lots of people
I speak to and,
work with,
moving their
superannuation
out of those
managed funds
and into Bitcoin.
And it's a
lot more straightforward
a process
than most people think.
It's not as complicated
as it's made out to be,
the kind of
traditional wealth
industry
and accountants,
generally aren't
very well-educated on
the current state
of self-managed super,
and Bitcoin
particularly, and
so there's
lots of kind
of bad advice out there
or, half formed advice.
So, you know, that's
what we do
at the Bitcoin advisor.
And with the website
we created,
Bitcoin super.io,
to help
people understand
what's possible,
how to do it,
how quick it can be
and how much
you can invest.
And you know what
a good starting point
looks like.
And everyone's
circumstances are
different and,
unique and individual.
And, so, you know,
what's right
for one person
might not be right
for another person.
But,
more often than not,
we find,
a lot of people
are doing
100% allocation,
to answer the question
around performance,
you know, 8 to 12%
in a managed fund.
But Bitcoin's,
you know, compound
annual growth
rate is about 80%
a year
over the last ten years.
So it really is
like ten times
outperforming
the traditional,
traditional managed
fund industry.
You know, past
performance
is no guarantee
of future performance.
But,
that kind of average
over a ten year period
is the sort of period
that managed funds
measure themselves
over as well.
And so,
everyone thinks
Bitcoin is very new.
Well, it's
been around 16 years
and that sort
of performance over
the last ten years
is a very good,
measure for,
comparing it against
managed funds.
Yeah, yeah.
And,
you helped me
last year, like,
I remember having a chat
with you
in terms of the, the
how to the mechanics
of how to move my
money across.
But the story
you might not know is,
is what sort of sparked
that, desire in me.
So I already
had gotten into Bitcoin
like I had some money
put aside
for a business.
I realized that
the compound
annual growth rate
was going
to be much better
in Bitcoin
than if I kept
doing this business.
So I like
moved some money
across into Bitcoin.
So it was already quote
unquote a Bitcoin.
And then I was at a
Sydney made up
and someone tapped me
on the shoulder
and said,
at what price point
are you going
to move your,
super into Bitcoin?
I'm like,
you can do that.
He's like, yes.
So that's kind of
where I learned that
the only way to do it
at the moment
in Australia
is through
a self-managed
super fund.
I went through
the process
and I can say
thanks to you,
I have made in one year,
$83,169
in $0.91.
That's it's
amazing, right?
Yeah.
That's insane.
That's one year.
It just as I expected
close to the managed
funds.
It's so far ahead.
And you know,
even with drawdowns
I quite regularly,
post a chart on,
x that basically
shows that if,
I think it was 2019,
if you put $50,000
into AustralianSuper,
and at the same time
put $50,000 into Bitcoin
through an sMSf,
how would it perform
each year?
And I think the
worst drawdown was,
something
I can't remember
something like
40 something percent.
But basically that
$50,000 in 2019, in,
AustralianSuper
would turn to $76,000
by the time you got to
the end of the previous
financial year.
So, end of June
just gone.
And in Bitcoin,
it would have
gone from $50,000
to about $600,000.
So it's not even
and that's even
with a big drawdown
in the middle.
So yes, it's volatile,
but it's volatile
to the upside.
We know that money
is continually
being debased.
And therefore Bitcoin
will continue
to go up over
the long term.
And that makes it
the perfect vehicle
for a superannuation
because you're not going
to touch that money
until you're 60 or
67 or,
the point
at which you reach
Preservation Age.
And so why not
put it in the best
performing asset class?
And these
things are never one
way streets either.
You can always
readjust later.
You know,
one thing I,
I'm quite
happy with, you know,
I've been doing
my self-managed super
for about four years.
Four and a half years.
I already have more
in my self-managed super
now than
I would have had
I stayed
with AustralianSuper.
And retired
in ten years time.
11 years time.
And so now
I can readjust
that self-managed
super portfolio, knowing
that I've already got
plenty in super
that's going to last me
through my retirement.
And I can
always reallocate.
I'm not going to
because Bitcoin
is still
the fastest horse
in the race.
And, I don't see that
changing in any
anytime soon.
But fundamentally
outperform so much that,
you know, even over 3 or
4 years,
you're so far
ahead of where
you would ever be
with a managed fund.
It's almost silly
not to the the risk
is not being allocated
to Bitcoin
rather than, being,
you know, allocated
to bitcoin.
Yeah, absolutely.
And for me, I've noticed
I also feel a little bit
more comfortable
with the draw back
drawdowns in in
super than in
my personal stash.
Because for me
that is very much
the long, long term,
investment.
Whereas expect
with my personal stash
at some point
I will want to
sell some.
Not not a lot, but.
Well, we'll see.
I don't know
at this point.
I'm trying to like, hold
for as many cycles
as possible
without touching it.
But eventually
it kind of do
want to live off
my bitcoin.
I honestly view it
as a savings account.
That's that's
how I think
about bitcoin.
And I,
I see my personal stash
of bitcoin
as my savings account.
And what's the savings
account for?
It's for spending on,
you know, special events
or rainy days
or emergencies or
something like that.
So I'm
not in the camp of never
sell your Bitcoin,
I believe.
You know,
it's a savings account.
And if you need to spend
some of your savings,
whether it's,
you know,
taking your kids
on holiday or,
buying a car
that you always wanted
or upgrading
your house,
then that's
what it's for.
Like, you know,
nobody wants
their gravestone to have
how many bitcoin
they saved?
They want to
be remembered
for the great life
that they had
and the things
that they enjoyed and,
the experiences
they had
with their family
and friends.
So for me,
it's a savings account.
And you know, Bitcoin
and super is exactly
that too.
It's you're saving
for your retirement.
So that,
you know, we often joke,
you know,
who wants a soup
and bingo retirement
when you can have
a champagne
and caviar retirement.
And Bitcoin will enable
that.
And, you know, it's,
I'm much more
excited about retirement
and having access
to those funds
than worrying about,
you know, scrimping
and saving and,
having a struggle
in retirement.
So soup is all about
providing
for a great retirement.
Yeah, absolutely.
I want to travel.
I want to go hiking.
I want to live
a good retirement, not,
you know, collect stamps
and look at coupons
and things like that.
So I,
I feel very good
about that.
But I wanted to ask you,
there's a lot of
women in the community
who might not have a lot
in their superannuation,
whether it is
by circumstance,
such as their
sole trader
and therefore
not putting as much away
into their retirement,
or they've
taken time off
for motherhood
again, had no income
during that time.
So if someone's got like
less than 50,000
in their superannuation,
is that
still a good opportunity
for them to enter?
Like I guess
a self-managed
super fund
with all the fees
and annual audits
and things like that?
I think,
you know, everyone's
circumstances are
slightly different,
and there's probably 2
or 3 different
scenarios there which,
you know,
would be yes,
no, or maybe,
but certainly, you know,
we have clients
who start
with $20,000 and,
you know,
they're on the beginning
of their journey
with superannuation and,
basically,
you know,
it's a good opportunity
to buy them
with Bitcoin, the fees,
you know, probably
13, $1,400
a year for a super.
So they're
not that high.
That's obviously
a large percentage
when your balance is
only sort of 20,
30, 40 grand.
But when the
performance of
Bitcoin is 83% a year,
it really pale
into insignificance.
So often the kind of
traditional accountancy
or wealth advice
you'd get is
you need like two,
three, four, $500,000
to do a self-managed
super make it viable
because it's expensive.
But I think
that's outdated.
Purely from the fact,
you know,
they talk
about fees, but,
generally when
an accountant
is talking
about a
self-managed super, it's
usually where,
the client is going
to be trading
in and out of shares.
They think they
can do better
than the managed funds.
They're investing
in all sorts
of crazy things,
and there's lots
of transactions
and complexity.
And when you buy
and hold Bitcoin,
it couldn't be simpler.
Your, doing one
purchase
with your rollover out,
which is your
initial balance
of however much you're
moving in.
Plus then your
compulsory contributions
on a,
on a rolling basis.
And so you might do
like 12
transactions a year
if you get paid
your super monthly,
could even before
if you paid quarterly.
So,
I think the rules around
that are changing
so that you
have to receive
super
when you get
your salary.
But ultimately,
it's not complex.
It's not a
complicated thing.
And therefore
the performance
dramatically outweighs
the cost of doing it.
And so it makes it cost
effective
at a fairly low
amount of balance
to be able to do this,
and provide you
the best possible
opportunity
of growing your balance
dramatically.
So, you know, to take
20 grand
and add 83%
and compound that over,
eight, ten, 12,
24 years,
before you retire, then,
you know,
you're
providing yourself
a really
significant opportunity
for a decent retirement.
So small amounts
is absolutely possible.
I think,
you know,
and big nuance
to this, that I
often talk
about as well,
I personally don't
think it's a good idea
to, contribute to super
anything other than what
you have to.
It's much better
to stack
Bitcoin outside of super
than it is inside.
But all of those funds
that are compulsory,
and already there
or going to be there
through
compulsory
contributions,
of course, allocate them
to Bitcoin
for the performance
that you're
going to get.
But never make
any discretionary
contributions to super.
Because I think
the counterparty risk
is too great.
The government are
moving the goalposts.
They will continue
to move the goalposts,
that they're looking
at a $4.5 trillion
of superannuation money.
And they're working out
as many creative ways
as they can
to try
and get
their hands on that
to fund
their profligate
spending.
So, fundamentally,
I would really say,
you know,
in the soul
Traders example
that you used,
much better for that
sole trader to,
allocate, you know,
company bitcoin,
or personal bitcoin
than to start
contributing to super
when they
absolutely don't have to
because
that counterparty risk
is just too great.
Yeah.
Absolutely not.
I agree with that.
I before
I got into Bitcoin,
I did start
thinking of allocating
like I was allocating,
additional contributions
into my super
because I didn't know
of Bitcoin.
I didn't use
it as a tool.
I didn't realize
how powerful it was.
So I was very much
in that traditional
finance mind
where I was like,
I need to have
something decent
to retire with.
But now, like,
my mind
has completely shifted
because I've seen
the performance
and it just doesn't
make sense.
And and like,
like you said, you're
absolutely right.
They do keep
moving the goalposts.
And it is so frustrating
because when we
look back at history,
the reason why
they set up
superannuation
in the first place
was because to help
people save
for their retirement
and now
they've turned
around and go,
oh look, there's
this old money.
Like,
let's put a pause in it.
And yeah, we can
we can talk about,
some of the taxation
changes, proposed
taxation changes
a little bit later on.
But before we do,
I wanted to
maybe get into
the mechanics.
You do have
a great resource
on your website
as to the step
by step guide,
in how
you can move your,
entire superannuation
fund from
your super fund
into a self-managed
super fund.
And there's like
about ten
steps for memory.
Most of this steps
are not done by you.
They're done
by your super admin,
for example.
But you kind of
just need to be aware of
where you are.
And there are a couple
of critical decisions
that you as
an individual
have to make before
you make that,
think from memory.
The first one
is deciding
whether you want to be
set up
as a family trust.
Yeah, as a family
trust or a,
a corporate trust to.
Yeah. So,
we we've recently kind
of updated
things on Bitcoin
super to make it
even easier,
we've partnered
with a company called
you do smsf
really
great organization.
They've set up
thousands
of self-managed
super funds
over the years.
And just in the last
six months,
we've started working
a bit more closely
with them.
And so,
it makes it even easier.
So there are a number
of different ways
you can set up an sMSf.
We used to,
recommend a super fund,
and that's
still a great option.
It's just
much more kind of,
self set up
and lots of
paperwork yourself.
And with you do now,
basically they,
they help
do it all for you.
So it's very much
a hands off, process.
They'll really step you
through everything,
hold your hand
all the way
through the process.
It makes it a lot
easier and quicker
because they're
very, efficient
at doing that.
And the costs
are very similar.
So, it's
a really effective
way of doing it.
And really,
you know, what
we tend to do is,
you know, introduce
clients to, you do.
And then basically
they're taken
through the process
and it takes
about four weeks.
And they'll
talk you through
whether it's
a corporate trustee
or a personal trustee.
Generally, we recommend
corporate trustee
is the default
because you can have
a single member
in the fund.
Similarly
you can have up
to six
members in the fund.
So we have quite
a few clients who have,
husband and wife
and adult children or,
parents
in the fund as well.
And that's that spreads
the cost of that
and maintenance
of that fund.
You do also
obviously, then
look after
your annual
tax return and,
your audit,
make sure everything
you know, functions
properly and easily and,
really makes it
a very hands
off process.
So generally very,
very simple.
As an individual,
then you're just kind
of responsible for,
when the compulsory
contributions come in
from your employer,
making sure
that, you know,
they go to your,
exchange account,
which is set up
in the name
of your super fund,
and then obviously
buying the Bitcoin
and storing that,
however you want to
store it.
And again,
you know,
that's something we help
clients with as well,
as the bitcoin advisers,
collaborative security.
But people are entirely,
free to kind of store
their bitcoin
as they see fit.
And again,
that's kind
of one of the,
unintended benefits
of having Bitcoin
and super
you're actually,
putting that money
under your own custody
and control.
And so,
you know, if something
dramatic happens, then,
potentially super funds
in managed funds,
can, you know,
lose value
and disappear or,
as you know, happened
even just a
few weeks ago,
I think it was
a $100 million
collapse of,
an investment firm,
that was running,
you know,
a pretty sketchy,
superannuation process.
And,
they basically ran off
with everything,
at least with Bitcoin
and self-custody.
You're looking after
that yourself,
and it's
under your own control
and your own keys and,
makes you self-sovereign
with your
with your
superannuation.
So it's not
at risk of someone
walking off with it,
you know.
Yeah.
And the double standards
when these
happen in happens
in traditional
finance it's
very much hush hush.
When it happens
in Bitcoin it's it's
yeah it's it's
a completely
different stories
like Bitcoin is terrible
in this in that
which just is not true.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But on
that they
actually have been
a number of things
in Australian headlines
as to like super
funds doing
sketchy things.
I know the case
that you mentioned,
but there was one
as well
earlier on this year
where
I think it was hesta
when I say
maybe I'm wrong, but.
They turn
the systems off
for like six months.
What, like a system?
That was horrendous.
Was that Mr..
Yeah, yeah,
it just so many
red flags for me.
And I do feel a
lot more secure
having my own retirement
in my own hands.
And I do keep it
very separate
from my personal stash.
So I've got separate
wallets,
separate accounts,
separate everything.
So don't muddy
the waters.
And I always advise
people to do the same.
Yeah.
I think it
leads to a
really important point.
Not just the,
stability or doing
sketchy things or
being run badly.
If you actually
ask your super fund,
where are my funds
invested,
they'll give you very
kind of top
line allocations
to Australian shares,
U.S shares,
fixed income,
alternative investments.
And,
you know, other things.
You actually
have no idea
where your money
is invested.
And you know,
even things like,
I think Matt
Barry did a tweet
a couple of days ago,
you know,
the entrepreneur
in Australia
that he,
he'd wandered
around Australian,
commercial real estate
looking for, new office
space, I think,
and he said
it was just a disaster
in Sydney CBD.
You know,
the offices he went into
might have like, 15%
occupancy.
You know,
most of the
floors are empty.
They're discounting X,
Y, and Z, like
the returns
that those,
commercial real estate
properties are earning.
It must just be dire.
Now, who owns
all of that
commercial real estate?
It's a lot of the
superannuation funds.
And so
those superannuation
funds are holding
that commercial
real estate at whatever
valuation
they put on them
because they're self,
valuing them
and they don't have to
revalue them.
I mean, it's something
like every three years,
at their own discretion.
And so, you know,
that was all based on
like 80, 90% occupancy,
which is clearly
not the case
anymore post-Covid,
and will continue
to decline
with kind of advent
of AI
and everything else.
And so
whatever valuations
those super
funds are putting
on the money
that you've got invested
with them.
Yeah.
That's just one example
of probably
a bunch of
bad investments
that are overvalued,
which means that,
you know,
by the time
you get to retirement,
are those funds
going to be worth
the same amount of money
as you think they are?
Possibly not.
And if there's,
you know, another 2008
style recession or,
economic collapse
that can destroy
a lot of the value
in your superannuation,
that isn't
going to come back.
And that's
quite different
with Bitcoin.
You know,
Bitcoin is
price volatile.
But it's a
nice an asset.
But you know the
amount of Bitcoin
you hold will remain
the amount of bitcoin
that you hold.
And so as the cycles
continue or price
appreciations continue
and the scarcity
of bitcoin for me,
it gives me an awful
lot more
confidence that,
I know how much
Bitcoin is in my super,
I know how much
I'm adding
to that
on a regular basis.
So I know
how much bitcoin
I'm going to have
by the time I retire.
You can't say the same
about the dollar value
of your, managed fund
because you're not
in control
of any of that.
And the, the valuations
of some of
these investments
that they have
are just garbage.
So it's
really concerning to me.
And I think
the risks of
not doing it
far outweigh
the risks of doing it.
And you
begin to realize
that more and more
when you
when you're
on the other side of
having done the move.
Yeah, absolutely.
That sounds
like a huge red flag
for them to be marking
their own homework
like that.
It's yeah, yeah.
What could go wrong?
Yeah.
But I wanted to ask
you if,
for people
who've already set up
their sMSf
as a, family trust,
how like, is it
fairly easy
to swap switch
to corporate later
on when they decide
that they want
to do that? Yeah.
If it's a
personal structure,
then you can move it
to a corporate
structure.
And obviously
any of the management
firms can help
you do that.
And I don't think it's
a complicated thing
to do.
I generally,
like I said, recommend
a corporate trustee
just upfront.
It's a little bit
more cost,
but you can pay that
back to yourself
out of your super.
So it's only a
temporary outlay.
But yeah,
you can certainly move
from a, personal
trustee to a corporate
trustee fairly easily.
Yeah.
It's not a
not a
complicated exercise.
Nice, nice.
Now let's
maybe talk about
how we can keep
our superannuation
for as long as
possible and,
and let's
touch on division to 96,
because I know
that's quite,
a big concern
for a lot of people
in Australia.
I have been
following the debates
on all social medias,
including Instagram
and Twitter
and LinkedIn,
and it's interesting
to hear both sides
of the perspective,
and just how misinformed
some people are.
Yeah, I think
I think there's really
a few moving parts
to it.
First and foremost, it's
not been legislated yet,
so everything's
a little bit
speculative until,
that legislation passes,
if indeed
it does in the current,
proposed form,
we absolutely hope
that, you know,
they see sense,
before they
make any
stupid decisions.
Clearly, the
the most
contentious component
of it
is taxing unrealized
capital gains.
You know,
all taxes, theft.
And I'm
pretty open about,
talking about that.
But at the end
of the day,
unrealized capital
gains tax
is just egregious theft.
You haven't
you haven't
realized that money.
So the
they're asking you
to pay
for something
that you haven't
earned yet.
So,
so I think it's
it's pretty bad.
And the
unintended consequences
of that are significant.
Obviously it's on
balances over
$3 million.
And so most people,
will be like,
well,
I'm never going
to get
to $3 million of super.
Yeah.
Fair enough.
There's 80,000 people
in the country,
apparently, that,
do have a balance
of greater
than $3 million
in their super
all the way
up to hundreds
of millions of dollars.
And, I don't think
anyone, you know,
particularly argues
that, you know,
okay, maybe we move from
15 to 30%,
tax rate
on balances
over 3 million.
Okay. You know,
I don't agree
with it, but at
the same time, it's not,
you know, it's
not the worst
thing in the world.
But to tax it
when it's unrealized,
capital gains
can, can cause
some really
significant problems.
And you know,
we kind of game
to the numbers out.
And,
if you had a $3
million balance
of bitcoin
because it's
a volatile asset,
it could cause
some significant issues.
So if Bitcoin did
a ten in a year,
which,
you know, doesn't seem
unfeasible with the,
scarce supply,
it it's a possibility.
It's certainly
a non-zero possibility.
So you would
go from $3 million
to $30 million.
That would be a $27
million gain.
And so you would
be paying 30%
tax on that $27 million,
which would be
about eight
and $1 million.
If the following year
Bitcoin's price
crashed 80%,
for example,
you would
then have a tax
bill greater
than the balance
of your super fund
and you would have to
declare insolvency.
If you're then
a company director,
you would have to
not be a company
director anymore,
so you would
lose your job.
And if you were holding
a financial
services license
and that was the case,
you would no longer
be allowed
to hold
the financial
services losses.
And so the
unintended
consequences for
a Bitcoin are
quite dramatic.
And, you know, it
that's why
it kind of
the unrealized capital
gains
component is
just dreadful.
You know, the broader
kind of superannuation,
cohort
of farmers
and other people
who are wealthy
who have their farms
in the super because
it's the best place
to keep them,
to prevent,
to preserve
generational wealth.
In that instance,
you know,
what does the farmer do
if you know the
who values
their farm
and says, well,
your farm is now
worth X amount more.
So you I was $1 million.
Like, it's,
it's a really egregious,
you know, problem.
You know, does
your auditor
turn round to you
and say, well,
your farm is worth
$15 million?
And now it's
worth $20 million
because I say so.
And then the next year,
maybe it crashes.
Like,
do you have to
sell, like,
a quarter
of a back paddock
to cover a tax bill?
Like, it's an,
you know,
the stated rules
are that
you have to have
enough cash on hand
to be able
to do it, but,
you know, farming
notoriously can be,
you know, a very wild
set of swings
in terms of cash flows.
So it's going to cause
all sorts of problems
for that, that cohort.
So, you know,
I just think
generally speaking, it's
terrible legislation.
Hopefully,
you know, they see sense
and remove
the unrealized
capital gains component.
You know,
ultimately, I'm glad
my superannuation
is in Bitcoin
because it's
under my control
in my wallet,
secured with my keys.
And, you know,
that gives me
optionality should,
that should
these sorts of things
come to bear.
So
Yeah, absolutely.
I saw on Instagram
like because I've been
following this
for a while now
and people were saying
this only benefits
the rich.
They get like
tax breaks
from from super.
And the way that
it was worded,
I thought like it
almost sounded like
it's only that rich.
They get a tax break
and nobody else.
And it's quite like
a manipulative way
to state something
because that's
actually not the case.
Maybe they're the ones
utilizing this,
but it's available
to everyone.
It's an incredibly
socialist argument
to say that,
a tax not levied
is a tax break.
It's an
absolute nonsense.
The the law is the law.
The tax rules are
the tax rules.
You pay what?
Taxes due?
Just because
they could tax you more
doesn't mean you're
getting a tax break.
It's an
absolute nonsense.
So, you do
often hear in kind of,
you know, socialist,
media and,
you know,
on the news and
other things like,
you know,
they're getting
a tax break
of millions of dollars.
Well, they're not
because it's not
levy tax.
So, it's just what
the rules are.
And so,
you know, to my mind,
it is absolutely kind
of a garbage
argument to,
to suggest that,
you know,
just because you're
getting 15% instead
of 30% that,
you're costing
the government
X amount of money
if you follow
that argument through,
anything less than 100%
is a gift
from the government.
Well, we know that's not
the case.
And taxes
are way too high
as as they are,
because spending
is too high as it is,
which is why
they're looking
to tax more and more
because they keep
spending more and more.
You know,
you can see how badly
the economy in
the UK is going
for all the same reasons
that we're
following them.
So, you know,
all the argument
about on levy taxes
being a break is,
to my mind, garbage.
And I just
don't accept it.
Yeah,
absolutely.
And speaking of UK,
did you hear
like I haven't
verified this,
but apparently now they,
giving four year
visas tax free
to try to attract people
back into the country.
Is that true?
Or
I heard that somewhere.
And so New Zealand
does something similar
where it's a four year
tax break
on, overseas income.
So, you know,
there's plenty
of wealthy people
in Australia
looking at what
the labor government
are doing
and going, well,
I'm off to New Zealand
for four years and,
I'll take a tax break.
So, you know,
there's lots
of incentives
in different
jurisdictions.
And this is what,
you know,
those socialist
governments
don't really consider
is that, you know, if
if the wealthy are
taxed more,
they have the freedom
to move and they do,
you know,
Britain's example
recently of
how much capital gains
tax the,
taking is halved.
They put the rates up
so all the
wealthy people
pissed off, like it's
just what happens.
So, I think,
you know, a high
tax environment is just
catastrophic for,
for the nation, I think.
Yeah.
And there was a
lot of naivete
that I noticed
in a discussion
that I had with someone,
about this tax and,
fundamentally boiled
down to them saying,
well,
if more people
get caught
in this net
in the future,
the government's
going to reverse it.
And I'm like,
no, no, no, no, no, no.
Like, look, when I say
in Australia,
it doesn't, it
never reversed.
It's never reversed.
If anything, it
just goes the other way.
But yeah.
Okay.
So let's now
dive into the transition
to retirement.
So for those people
who are, close to it,
what what is it
that they need to know?
Yeah, it's a
it's a really
good question.
And it's
not the
most straightforward
of systems.
And there's kind of
lots of rules around
preservation age and,
whether you can be
working or not
and how it works.
And then
obviously layering
in the complexity
of Bitcoin, it's
is quite interesting
as well.
But
yeah,
a lot of clients
are nearing
or in retirement,
so we spend
a lot of time
talking to them
about how to
manage this.
And, you know,
one of
the first questions
is will
Bitcoin doesn't
generate a yield.
And so how am I going
to live on Bitcoin
when I retire?
Do I sell bits of it.
Do I borrow against it?
How do I do these things?
And so we spend a bit
of time
talking about that.
But initially,
you can declare yourself
retired in Australia
at 60 years old.
As long as you're
not earning
and you can say
to the ATO, I am not.
No longer
earning an income,
and then,
you can transition
to retirement.
So, before retirement,
you are in,
accumulation phase
and post-retirement
you're in pension phase.
And so there's something
called the transfer
balance cap,
which is
the amount of money
that you're allowed
to move from,
accumulation phase,
into pension phase,
tax free forever.
That currently sits
at $2 million,
and tends to increment
in $100,000
units
depending on inflation.
So some years
it might not go up.
Other years,
like this year
it just went up $100,000
from 1.9 million
to 2 million.
So I did some kind of,
take it
with a pinch of salt,
mental arithmetic around
what that would
look like for me.
And, you know,
if I've got a
pile of Bitcoin,
by the time I get to 60,
I expect
the transfer balance cap
to probably be around
$3 million by then
because
it's about
ten years away.
And it'll probably,
with inflation,
go up 100 grand a year.
So, we'll call it around
$3 million
by the time I retire.
So you can take
$3 million
worth of bitcoin
and in-kind transfer
into your pension phase.
Which means you can just
take the Bitcoin
and reallocate it
over there.
You don't have
to sell it
for dollars and buy
Bitcoin back
or anything like that.
You can
literally move it,
as Bitcoin
out of accumulation
phase
into pension phase.
Then one of the rules
and the kind
of social contract
of superannuation,
you have to spend
4% of your balance
every year,
to live on.
Now, you can spend more
if you want,
obviously, but,
you can't spend
less than that.
So,
and that can't be
in-kind.
So you do have to sell
4% of your,
pension holdings
every year into cash
and withdraw it into
your personal account.
Now, that doesn't mean
you can't just
buy Bitcoin again.
And hold
that personally.
But that sale of
Bitcoin out
of your pension
because it was under
the transfer
balance cap,
is tax free forever.
So there's no
capital gains tax paid
on that transaction.
And that will
remain the case.
So I thought,
as a bit of
mental gymnastics
using the compound
annual growth
rate of Bitcoin, which
who knows
if that continues?
Because it is, you know,
compared to
other assets, very high.
But who's to say
it doesn't go higher
with the
scarcity of Bitcoin?
But at the end
of the day,
like what
would it look like
in ten years?
So, if I,
if you moved 3 million
into, pension
phase and you withdrew
4% a year
and the compound
annual growth rate
continued in ten years
time, that 4%
that you would have to
withdraw
would be about
$4 million.
And you would have about
$100 million
in your pension
challenge.
Challenge accepted.
I think.
So I can,
I'll have a crack.
I'll try my best.
Yeah, yeah.
I also
wanted to ask you,
before you joined
the call,
we briefly spoke
about some of
the legislation
changes in the US,
and now the 401 K,
which is
the superannuation
equivalent in Australia.
They can now purchase
Bitcoin directly.
How far do you think
Australia is
from from that.
Like, what do you think.
Do you have a.
Really good question.
Yeah.
No, it's
a really good question.
And typically,
you know,
Australia
ultimately does
follow what the US
banking regulations do
because
the Federal Reserve
and the Treasury
and the US government
all set
this legislation and,
you know, then the banks
follow and,
everything trickles
down.
And, it would be highly
unusual for Australia
not to follow
at some point.
It may be slow.
It may take
a number of years
or a decade.
Who knows?
But, I find it very
strange that if us,
US citizens
were able to
allocate that for.
I want to,
to Bitcoin and do that
however they likes that,
that we wouldn't
follow suit because,
that's the pension
industry's about $45
trillion and us
is about $4.5 trillion.
You know,
so it's ten times
larger over that,
you know, obviously
a much larger population
as well.
Again,
probably ten
times larger.
So it's relative.
But I,
you know,
I think a lot of that
forward
thinking legislation
out of the states should
ultimately trickle down
to Australia.
And, and become law
here as well.
But, you know,
we are actually
ahead of the US
because self-managed
super lets
you do it now anyway.
So, that makes life
a lot easier.
But, there's
obviously the news from,
you know, a
bunch of months ago
from AMP that,
they made a small
kind of like 20,
$30 million
allocation to Bitcoin.
I'm sure that's,
you know,
the best
performing component
in their, managed funds.
So, you know,
I'd be surprised
if more don't
follow suit, as well.
Anyway.
So yeah,
I remember that
I forgot about it.
But they invested
in Bitcoin futures
or something
like a while ago was
it was in the news once
and then they passed
and no one's really
talked about it since.
Yeah I think one of the,
one of the guys
who made that happen
at AMP spoke at Bitcoin
alive,
earlier
earlier in the year.
So but yeah,
I mean, look,
it was a forward
thinking, forward
thinking,
moment for them.
And I'm sure it's,
you know,
one of the best
performing components
they have like
nothing else
is performing like
Bitcoin right now. So
yeah.
Yeah.
That would have proved
to be a wise,
move.
It's interesting as well
to see
how slowly.
But I am optimistic
about changes
in Australia,
although it's happening
very, very slowly.
Like it was lovely
to see,
an ASX
listed company allocate
I think they've
got 12 bitcoin.
I want to say 12.9 nines
figure I have in my mind
in, in their
corporate treasury.
So that's nice.
I have a feeling
that will be
more people,
more companies
that follow suit.
And monochrome are doing
a really great job
with their ETF as well.
And, world
leading in terms of,
in-kind redemptions
and deposits.
So,
that again,
is a great forerunner.
I think we will see
more of that
with the ETFs
in the States.
I think that's
getting announced
or being announced.
But, you know,
in-kind redemptions
then actually
makes, monochrome
a very viable method
as an onramp
and off ramp
for Bitcoin as well,
particularly as,
you know, the banks,
deep banking people for,
for wanting to
buy Bitcoin.
And I think
that legislation
also got signed
in the US in the last
24 hours
by Donald Trump that,
you know,
they aren't allowed
to de bank you anymore.
So I would expect
that legislation also
to trickle down
to Australia and,
you know, hopefully
get rid
of some
of these nonsense.
Restrictions
and limitations
that the banks,
put in place,
you know, Commbank limit
you to $10,000 a month,
I think, currently.
And,
just before the ftxs
blow up
a couple of years ago,
they were
about to launch
the ability
to buy Bitcoin,
but they got cold feet
when FTX blew up.
So the hypocrisy of
now not
letting you spend
more than $10,000
a month on, on
Bitcoin is,
it's quite astonishing.
And, you know,
I think simple solutions
to that sort of thing,
you know, they'll,
they'll shout fraud
from the rooftops.
But I think crypto
fraud is
a small percentage
of the fraud
that gets perpetrated.
And, you know,
if you're dealing
with reputable
Australian exchanges,
then,
there shouldn't
be any limitation.
You ought to be able
to white label yourself
or white
list yourself from,
any kind of,
onerous exemptions
from you
spending your own money
how you want to.
I mean, you could,
you could organize
with a branch that,
you know,
you want to go to Crown
Casino and spend
$100,000.
They're not going
to stop you.
So why aren't
you allowed to go
and buy Bitcoin?
It's, it's crazy
kind of legislation.
So I think back
to the previous point,
hopefully that trickles
down from the states
pretty quickly to.
Yeah, it's
absolutely insane
because someone
who does have like
say say
they have $1 million
to invest in Bitcoin.
How long is it
going to take them
to move
that money across
if they're with
Commonwealth Bank?
And if someone's
been a customer
with you
for like 30, 40, 50
years, like it's
it's really
not a nice thing.
Like I've spoken to
some people who are
with the Commbank and,
well, not anymore,
because they moved for
this very reason.
Yeah.
It's a big
for you
to your customers.
And I'm all for,
you know,
minimizing fraud
and making sure
that people don't
lose their money
and everything else.
But at the same time,
you know,
I think the pendulum
swung way too, way too
far in the
wrong direction.
Yeah, absolutely.
Especially
if it's going to like,
a regulated exchange.
They they do their own
enhanced due
diligence in-house.
So it doesn't
it just
doesn't make sense.
You are hurting
small businesses.
You're
hurting individuals.
And it just
makes me
remember that,
meme that we
love to share.
If my money's
in the bank,
it's not yours.
It's not money.
It's not in the bank.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
What else
can we chat about?
I'm just trying
to think.
Have we missed
something, Andy?
I, I just think,
you know, one
other point
that we kind of
touched on earlier,
but is really important
around,
females,
you know, doing this
in terms
of their superannuation.
A lot of our clients
are female,
whether they're,
you know,
married or single
or single mums or,
all, all different life
experiences
and situations.
There's clearly
an earning disparity
for females and males.
And like you
mentioned earlier
that that can be
even more,
exaggerated
when it comes
to superannuation
because of, you know,
career breaks or
maternity leave or,
raising kids
or any number
of different reasons.
And so,
females generally
do retire
with much smaller
super balances
than, that male partners
or husbands or whatever.
And so I've found
and we find that,
the females,
the ladies
that we work with,
it's an enormously
empowering situation
to be able
to get
your superannuation
into Bitcoin
and start
performing at 80
plus percent a year,
and very
quickly outperforming,
you know, their husbands
and partners or friends.
And, it provides
a real sense of,
stability and,
a massive reduction
in worry about what
life looks like
in retirement,
particularly
when they have
smaller balances
to start with.
Once you're
past three, 4 or 5 years
of having Bitcoin
and self-managed super,
the freedom and,
you know,
empowerment
that, that gives you
is really
quite incredible.
And, I think, you know,
more so than,
you know, blokes
investing in,
super, in Bitcoin.
I think it's just
it really does change,
change people's lives.
And, I love nothing
more than catching up
with, female clients
and hearing
how it's going
and everything else.
And, you know,
I think you mentioned,
before we
started talking that,
you know,
there are
people out there who,
have done this
and their husbands
think they're mad
and don't agree
with them
being a Bitcoin.
But then
the price of Bitcoin
appreciates
that superannuation
appreciates
dramatically.
And,
it turns their
husbands heads
and they're like,
Holy shit,
I think you're right.
And, then,
you know,
all sorts of crazy
things start happening
and people
really understand
what's possible.
So it's very exciting.
I think it's, you know,
a really
freeing technology.
I think, you know,
Bitcoin is freedom is,
is probably one
of the most
profound statements
about bitcoin,
and that freedom is
mental, physical,
financial and on
so many
different levels.
And I see that,
you know, in reality,
every single day
when I talk to clients,
who now
don't worry
about their retirement
and know that
there's going to
be enough there
to support them
and their family
for as many years
as they're going
to be around.
And, you know,
just talking about that
and the transition
to retirement thing,
you really
need to budget
for like 20
to 25 years
of retirement, like,
that's the
average lifespan
post retirement.
That's a long time.
And when you look at
a lot of
these retirement
calculators
and they say, well,
you need 5 or $600,000
in your superannuation
to be able
to retire comfortably.
No way.
It's like three, 4
or 5 million.
If you're going to have
a decent retirement
for 25 years,
if you look at inflation
and everything else.
So, yeah,
I take all of those guys
with a big
pinch of salt,
and I think,
you know,
seeing people,
comfortable
knowing that
their bitcoin
is going
to outperform inflation
and that they're going
to have a comfortable
retirement is
so rewarding.
Yeah, I
was going to mention
that earlier on,
because that is
one of the things
that really,
really frustrate me
because I do
keep seeing those things
pop up
as well as advice,
how much you need
to have in retirement
if you're
a single versus
a couple.
And it was like around
five 600,004.
If you're a single
and there's no way that
that is enough
money for you,
even if you
even if you have your
mortgage paid off
and you have
like you don't,
which most people don't,
and most people will
not by the time
they retire
because of the cost
of living what it is
now, there's just no way
for us
to be told repeatedly
that this
is enough money
to retire.
And I think it's really,
really dangerous.
And it it almost
feels like there's
some sort of like,
institutionalized
gaslighting in the sense
that you're meant
to settle for less.
This is what
you should be
happy with.
And I want to be
careful in how worth is,
because I know
some people
are going to retire
with these sums
and even less.
And it is
like a very
frightening thought.
But I don't want that
to be the cause
for us to say
that 600,000 is enough
for retirement
for a single person.
There's nothing.
Because to me
that sounds like
hurry up and die
sooner and live poorly
like that.
In essence.
Yeah.
And without trying
to sound
too conspiratorial,
I've probably done
a good job of
that already. But,
yeah, the
institutional
gaslighting.
You know,
if you look at it,
these sorts of figures
are produced
by the industry bodies
or associated entities.
The industry funds
or the super funds
are performing
at 8 to 12% a year.
So you can't expect
to have more than that
because the amount
that you pay
in over your lifetime,
plus the performance
that they deliver
for you, is only going
to get you
to those sorts
of numbers.
So, of course
they're going to say
that's what
you need in retirement,
their whole industry.
And you know,
whole industry
is predicated on
making money
out of your money
to pay themselves
lots of money.
So, you know, they,
they can't outperform
or underperform
massively.
They're
they're not
incentivized to,
you know,
if they underperform
for a couple of years,
they can be forced
to close to new members
and then rolled
into another fund
so that legislatively,
they're encouraged
to perform as a herd
8 to 12% a year,
and not outperform
because that
causes others
to underperform.
And, you know,
they're all about
a diversified portfolio
and making sure that,
you know,
all the risk is spread.
It comes to
probably maybe
a final point,
you know,
on diversification
versus concentration.
You know,
a lot of our clients
have 100% allocation
to Bitcoin.
You know,
that's their choice.
That's how
they want to invest.
It's the best
performing asset.
So why wouldn't you.
But the
traditional finance
and accountancy
industry, wealth
industry will always say
you need
a diversified portfolio
to protect your wealth.
Well,
that's all well
and good,
but if you don't have
the wealth,
you need a
concentrated portfolio
to achieve the wealth
that you want.
There's no point
having a
diversified portfolio
if it's
not growing sufficiently
to support you
in retirement.
So you know that
that argument for me
is that that argument
and I often use
the anecdote of,
you know, Jeff Bezos
isn't the richest
man in the world
because he had a
diversified portfolio.
It's because he had
a concentrated portfolio
of Amazon stock.
And I
think it's reasonably
well documented anecdote
that Bill gates
would have been
the first world's
first trillionaire
had he not diversified
his portfolio away
from Microsoft stock.
But, you
know, Warren Buffett's,
you know,
advice he did and
therefore he's not worth
$1 trillion.
He's worth a lot
less now.
He's still
got more money
than he'll ever need in
100 generations.
But at the same time,
I'm sure he would have
liked to have been
the world's
first trillionaire.
So the whole kind of
diversification versus,
concentration
portfolio argument,
I think is a nonsense
as well, particularly
when it comes
for 20 years.
I might as well give it
the best opportunity
to become worth
as much money
as possible
over the course
of the next,
you know, ten years.
Yeah,
I believe in
Bitcoin's fundamentals.
And to me,
the way I understand
it, it is a very safe
asset.
So it's probably
one of the safest ones
and still.
Probably absolutely.
Having. Yeah.
Well the biggest risk
to Bitcoin is me.
So so
yeah, I definitely feel
very comfortable
having a 100% allocation
in Bitcoin in my super.
And yeah, it's done
very well for me so far.
I am also expecting
drawbacks.
I'm comfortable
with that.
And yeah.
Very good.
Yeah.
Well thank you
very much for your time.
It's been a great chat,
very efficient.
But we got a lot of
ground covered.
But how can people
contact you
if they have
some follow
up questions?
What's the best way
to reach you?
So I'm on X,
and the BTC
advisor,
you can also Google
the Bitcoin advisor.
Bitcoin super.io.
And we've just recently
launched
Learn My coins.com,
which is,
a very new
and innovative
way to borrow
against your bitcoin
with Bitcoin.
So it's,
it works
for a very
particular trade.
But, you can find me on
there.
All of those things.
Awesome.
Thank you
so much for your time.
Loved having you on
now guys.
Thank you.
Thanks, Sandy.