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Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
Subscribe now for weekly episodes that celebrate the unpredictable, the playful, and the deeply human side of making things. Join the mailing list at mischiefpod.com
Email anytime at podcast@ohhmaybe.com and follow us @mischiefpod
Mishu Hilmy (00:03.244)
Welcome to Mischief in Mastery, where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life, and that steady, and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big, bold, risky mo-
So, if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe a little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com.
artist known for her adventurous genre-blurring sound, layering organic and synthetic textures while gliding between English and Spanish. Her unique style has drawn comparisons to Lorde, Sylvan Esso, and Billie Eilish, with features on NPR, Indie Shuffle, and Pop Matters, and performances ranging from the Oregon County Fair to opening for Sylvan Esso and sharing stages with Shaky Graves and Sage the Gemini. Her latest single, In Violet, teases a forthcoming full-length album.
to be released soon. So it was an absolute joy to get to chat with Lily and we met earlier in the year and talked about non-violent communication and creativity. So it was great to continue that conversation on this episode. We chat about what it's like to chase those giant creative dreams while also running your own career, finishing projects on a deadline just to hit the desert at Burning Man re-emerging.
to face the tug of war between art and income and figuring out how to keep that momentum alive when the routine falls apart. So it's a lovely talk, part confession and part pop star survival guide for anyone trying to create on their own terms. Please keep listening in. You can learn more about Lillian Francis at Lillian Francis on Instagram and LillianFrancismusic.com. I'll have all that in the show notes. So please enjoy the conversation with Lillian and myself.
Lillian Frances (02:18.469)
Starting with the big questions, man. Damn. You know, I, um, right now, I don't know why that's such a hard question to answer. The reason it's so hard is because I have, I had a really, really awesome July in August and just so focused, so expansive, created so much, was so excited about everything. Um, and then I went to Burning Man, which is,
Lots of fun, but it just threw me a little bit off my game. So getting back into it has been just like a little bit of a challenge that paired with living in my parents' house right now that is under construction. I don't have my studio. I don't have a kitchen sink. You know, I just like don't have... I was journaling about this this morning. I'm like, don't have like the routines. I don't really swim every day. The pool here is closed. So I'm just like off of it right now.
also on it and that like I'm, you know, I'm making progress every day and that's just what I'm trying to remind myself that like I feel very overwhelmed by the bigness of the tasks that I'm endeavoring on. But I remember that like I can only try every single day to get a little bit better. And that's what I do. And that's what I'm doing.
I think it's hard to have that daily faith of you're challenging yourself or you're doing enough any given day. It's like, okay. But I hear a couple of things. One is around, I want to know how Burning Man might have impacted your creative energy or maybe it's just an exhausting sort five, 10-day experience or whatever it was. But yeah, I want to hear more about that, but also the unsettledness of like...
you know, helping out how sitting and not having your team. And I think the third thing was just like around your practicing journals, journaling. So like a regular practice for you. So yeah, does any of those you want to just like dive into?
Lillian Frances (04:12.13)
Yeah, I guess I'll start with Burning Man and the reason that leading up to Burning Man, which was in late August, the reason leading up to it was so productive and intense were twofold. One, I was reading The Artist's Way. you read that? Yes! Okay, fabulous. Yeah, so I read that for the second time this year when I moved to LA.
I read it every year.
Lillian Frances (04:36.93)
Because I was like, I really want to start fresh. I want to start with like ultimate optimism, ultimate like good beginner energy. And you met me in a place where I was very much like, I'm going out, I'm talking to people, like energetically, fully sending it then, but also was moving a lot like up in, I was up in NorCal, my parents' house in Davis and then down in LA and then back up in NorCal poodle sitting and then back down in LA and like.
For every month I was down in LA, I was back up in NorCal, so I didn't feel like settled at all. So then finally, in July and August, I was like, okay, I have like seven weeks where I don't have to move places, let's go. So for those seven weeks, I was like on one. Also because I was trying to finish a lot of really big projects by the time the burn started, I was like, okay, you can go to Burning Man if you finish all these projects. So I was working from the morning that I woke, from the moment that I woke up to the moment that I went to bed.
every single day, Monday through Sunday, seven weeks in a row. So I was operating at like 130%. And I'll do this, I'll be like, go, go, go, go, go. And then I will fuck off to Burning Man and not have any responsibilities, only be playing, only be having fun, just like absolutely fucking off. And I have a really hard time coming back and being like, now I wake up at 7.30, now I go to bed at 10 o'clock, I don't smoke on the weekdays. I have...
Like, let's learn how to launch a course. Let's launch an album. Let's release a book. It's like, oof, those are like big things to convince myself to sit down and do work on. So I've just been fighting with that. And then that matched with, yeah, just like not having a space to practice guitar. mean, can practice guitar anyways, but it's more, you know, it's like the more you can set up all of your spaces.
just to be fully in the flow, it's easier.
Mishu Hilmy (06:35.118)
I mean, your environment can have a bigger impact on your routines. Like one of the strongest impacts on your routines are like your environments and the people you start yourself with. yeah, like being in an environment where you don't have those usual cues. I have my mic over here. have my guitar stand, my mixing boards. I can just like play around versus maybe you have like an acoustic in the corner. Like, oh, guess I'll take this dusty boy up.
Exactly. It's an acoustic in the corner of my room that's like my childhood bedroom that is like so messy, but like just cause like my dad's keeping like filing cabinets in there, you know, it's just like, I don't really want to practice guitar here in the morning and I already woke up late and now I like want to move on to this thing that I'm producing. it's yeah, but I'm only here for like another two weeks. So I'm just like, you know what? Do the best you can. One thing at a time. You got this.
I'm curious, do you find that you like have a pattern of doing extreme focus of like intense bouts of work and creative work and then, you you release it or you finish it and then it's maybe like more weeks or months of not necessarily malaise, like, can't convince myself to start again.
Oh yeah, for sure. That's like the working at operating at 130 % and then like operating at 70%. It's like I kind of do always need a balance, but I don't want like the fear of burnout to like keep me from like working really hard. Cause sometimes if I'm like, dude, if I got it in me and like, let's work all weekend, like let's go. Also because I make my own schedule. Like I can work really hard for two months and then go to Birdie Man.
You know, or I can work really hard on the weekend and then take off Monday, Tuesday and go backpacking. So I'm kind of like when I have the time and the space to really put in creative energy, then I am so stoked to put it in. And then it may come back to bite me in the ass later. But then I try to transition into like, OK, what are things that like a low energy person could do right now? OK, a low energy person could finish mixing those vocals. Like for me, like vocal mixing is it doesn't take a lot of like it's more mechanical.
Lillian Frances (08:39.232)
versus vocal recording might be something that I have to be more in the mood for, or if I'm doing a full mix of my own song, that feels more intimidating. But if I'm doing a mix of someone else's song, I'm like, well, I have to do it, so I get it done. But I also am pretty big on comar mentalizing. I have a hard time focusing on multiple things at once, because when I get in the flow, I just want to flow with it. I'm very much like a body in motion stays in motion, and that's why.
When I'm working really hard, I have a hard time stopping to play. When I'm playing really hard, I have a hard time stopping to work. And so I will focus on like one thing kind of at a time, but I'm like running like several full-time businesses right now. So it's like things I want to do all the time. So my main gigs are, am a pop star and I teach music production and like do mixing and like create content.
So that's like a whole like teaching music production, creating courses, releasing courses, creating content, doing like brand collaborations, etc. And then there's all my own stuff, my music, me trying to play festivals, me wanting to get a booker, me wanting to sign with a label, me wanting to release my own music. And those are relatively equally important to me, but one of them pays me more money. So that's what I do more of. But then I'm like, know, losing my pop star potential, feels like.
So then I get stressed out about not being a pop star and then I like lean more into my pop star-ness but then I'm like, no, this like doesn't, like I'm not making enough money. I need to like set up systems where I'm like making more passive income. And so it's just a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so much.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of overwhelming. I imagine like a challenge with, you know, there's these sort of self-actualization elements and then there's the elements of like your focus around, you know, putting, you know, money in the bank, food on the table, and sometimes they're in conflict, sometimes they're not. So like, how are you, you know, approaching at least the being pulled at different directions?
Lillian Frances (10:38.478)
So something I've been doing for, I don't know, five or six years now is I have a pretty solid morning routine or more. I mean, I've been doing morning pages for about 10 years now. Yes. Yes. But like my, when I work up, when I wake up, it's wake up at eight o'clock, make my coffee, do my morning pages, three pages of just morning flow, guitar for half an hour to an hour. That normally ends me around like 10 in the morning or 9.30, between 9.30 and 11. And then
until noon, it is only my work. It's what am I moving forward as my pop star? Am I finishing a production on a song? Am I starting a new song? Am I collaborating on vocals with someone and recording those? So I really try to protect that space in the morning for practicing guitar and for my own production. And then the afternoon is like, okay, what am I doing for other people? Am I mixing for other people or am I doing...
It's whatever needs to be done. I creating content for this person? Am I editing a video? Am I working on creating a music video? Whatever it is. And then sometime in the afternoon, I'll go for a run or swim or do yoga. I have to move every day. I like it and it's important to me. And then in the evenings, either I'll hang out with friends or I try...
I would love to hang out with my friends every single day, but also it's a lot of work time. So I'm like, do I go back to work at seven and work till like 10, or do I go and hang out with friends, depending on how much work I have or how much fun my friends are having that I make that decision. So I try to create space for all of them, but like right now I'm focusing on launching a course and that's gonna take precedent over me launching my album. And like, maybe I can get to a point where I have enough free time to be working on both of them, but otherwise I just need to like focus on one thing at a time.
And the course is more sort of like with the financial goal in mind of like, can I serve a group of people through these courses? And then, you know, I imagine there's the element of like the financial boom from that release.
Lillian Frances (12:39.95)
Yeah, exactly. Hopefully that's going to be something that makes money so that I can spend more time making music, you know, and have more financial stability, you know? So yeah, it just like build more of a community and people who are, you know, learning. I think I have a real knack for teaching and there's not a ton of people like me. And by like me, I mean,
I think I explain things in a really good way. And also I'm a woman and a lot of women and a lot of men want to learn from women and it's such a male dominated industry. So I'm like, also out here for the ladies. I'm like, and the boys, like obviously boys should be learning from me, but also women, like having women who can teach music production and look up to is really important because it is dire out there. It is a male dominated industry for sure, for sure, for sure.
And I know we chatted about this when I was out in LA months back. Cause then you mentioned earlier around sort of the pop star occupation, pop star identity. So I know you did a really interesting, incredible job explaining the spirit of that and your approach. But if you want to maybe addify some more around your relationship with the identity claiming pop star and kind of where you're at there.
Yeah, totally. So I am a pop star as we have decided. And a pop star for me is an energy. Pop star is all about being your most authentic, embodied, powerful, big self. It's about taking up space and creating without feeling bad about it or feeling like you should be smaller. It's about being expansive and as authentic as possible because when we do that,
it enables and allows and frees other people to also be their most embodied, empowered selves. So when I tell people I'm pop star, it's a little bit provocative because I have 200 monthly listeners on Spotify and when I say pop star, you think Sabrina Carpenter. So I like that because people are like, who the fuck is this chick? But it's,
Lillian Frances (14:55.872)
it's coming back to the pop star thing where like, if I can tell you that I'm a pop star and be fully behind it, like that delusional self-confidence will hopefully rub out on other people. Like, she thinks she's a pop star? Well, I can at least say that I'm a songwriter. I can at least say I'm a musician. I can at least say I'm an artist, you know, like, and, and she is a pop star because she says she's a pop star. We are whatever we say we are. It's incredible. Whatever we do, as long as we do it with confidence and it's aligned with our, you know,
our intentions and our actions are in line, then like, we're good. That's what we are.
I also think there's something subversive about it where you're sort of claiming something and redefining it. And I know we talked about nonviolent communication as well. And there's this relationship around nouns and how people can kind of sometimes become prisoners to these nouns versus instead of being a prisoner to the conceit of an idea, you're claiming it, defining it and letting that.
you know, meet your need for authenticity and contribution and growth and courage and all that. So I do think there's something impressive and a bit cheeky about really claiming it and being daring enough to like put it out there when they're like, is this person, you know, delusional, but I'm hanging out with someone who's delusional and that makes me want to manifest and express and you know, say, yeah, I am a songwriter or I am a blah, blah.
but you gotta be delusional. You literally have to be. Yeah. It's amazing. And it catches on. I can tell you the number of people who I see, mainly my friends and like acquaintances, but like I will walk in the room and my friends will be like, it's a pop star. other people get into it. People are so excited. This is my friend, Lily, and she's a pop star. Like people fully like pick that up, cause it's so fun.
Mishu Hilmy (16:38.719)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lillian Frances (16:47.819)
It's like playing make believe, know, or like dress up or like we create this imaginary game, but like it's more than imaginary. I mean, because it's the life that we live.
It's permission to play to a degree, right? Like, because I think most people live in a world of default and the default is like, this is reality versus, know, we, see all these different realities and similar to nonviolent communication, like the need for a shared experience, a shared understanding, a shared reality can be met.
can be unmet. There are people with political opinions we don't agree with, religious opinions we don't believe, or religious beliefs that will never have that shared reality. So there's something empowering about choosing to define your reality outside of the default and then the beauty of seeing like people playing in it and going like, actually, I also want to be a part of this reality because it doesn't matter. It's like, this is the world we're creating in this present moment.
Other people will identify as pop stars 100 % or like my friends will be like, oh my God, you have to meet my other friend. She's the pop star. I'm like, oh my God, you're a pop star? Or like, when I meet people, she'll like tell me what she does. And I'm like, oh my God, you're a pop star. And so like the more pop stars, the merrier. There is not a cap on pop star. When people ask me how this is going in L.A., I'm like, it's amazing. Everyone of me, it's a pop star. Which is kind of true, to be honest. But by pop star, I mean embodied, mainly musical.
Humans who are creating in their full potential and power and it's so many people all the time
Mishu Hilmy (18:11.694)
you push up against? I imagine there might be sort of feedback or a part of you that might have dissonance like or even extrinsic motivation. So how do you navigate either the inner strife or outer strife of like, well that ain't reality or the dissonance within or has that kind of state? Yeah, love to hear that.
Nobody has ever been like, you're not a pop star. would be like, that's so sad that you think that because I am, but your reality is your reality. So I really don't have actually any dissonance. Like I feel fully energetically a pop star, 100 % of my being. But I'm also a dirt bag and I'm also my parents' daughter. Like I'm multiple. I don't know if I told you this either, but I also have like multiple names. Like I'm Lillian Francis as my stage name, but like my other identity is Bugs.
Like I go by Bugzilla.
Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, um, how do you feel about the, I think it comes down to the, I like verbs, right? And, you know, maybe I get too much on, you know, not of like communication with nouns, but like, that's the thing about identity is they, uh, to a degree, you can use them to motivate action. So when you're a bugzeller, bugs, how does that differ in terms of your actions, the way you meet needs rather than say, Lillian Francis, the pop star.
I would say, so they're all me. I feel equally authentic in each one. Bugs is my name. Bugs started as my Playa name in like 2017. named myself before I went out to the burn because you're supposed to, or sometimes you will have Playa names. And I was like, well, I'm not going to let like someone else name me. And like, here's my name. It's Bugs. And then I named later named myself Bugsella for long. So it's Lillian Bugsella, Francis Cravois is the full name.
Lillian Frances (19:57.806)
After I went to Burning Man, for the first time in 2017, and I'm sorry that Burning Man's come up so much, I'm like officially that douchey Burning Man girl, but it's a very impactful creative experience for me, so it has to come up. But I would hang out with people who knew me from the burn, and they'd be like, bugs! And I'd be like, Because when I'm at Burning Man, I am my most authentic, creative, or full, expansive self. That is where I'm like, absolutely could not get any more myself if I tried.
And it's an incredible place to be and that's why I love going every year because it really resets my myself. And so when people call me Bugs, I was like, it made me feel like the person that was on the Playa. It made me feel like this expansive songwriting, like creating, you know, And I loved it. And so I started calling myself Bugs when I would go like on camping trips or when I would go on climbing trips.
And I also started to notice Bugs is a really easy name for people to remember. And it was really easy to say, I introduced myself, I go, I'm Bugs like Bunny. And then people remember Bugs like Bunny forever. So I would say the difference between Lily and Francis and Bugs is Bugs is a little bit more, she's not really on stage. She's more behind the scenes, getting into trouble, trying this, trying that. She's like kind of more in the playground.
Very social, very, who could I meet today? And are they gonna be my new best friend? And then I'm gonna go hang out with this person and what are you doing? And let's go this place, like very adventurous. And Lillian Francis is a little bit more putting that all together for this stage. So just a little bit more focused because she has to be because she's putting on a show.
I think it's an interesting way to help kind of create maybe order or movement because when you're sort of the pop star as Lillian, it's like, there's structure. want to create this kind of structure that's leading toward certain behaviors or certain things rather than what I think of something like bugs. It's like, this is organic. This is a vine crawling up a wall that might end up in the cracks or end up in a different building.
Mishu Hilmy (22:07.502)
And both are valid ways to sort of navigate and explore and set a goal for the moment. But it seems like to be aware of like, oh, this is where I'm just a little bit free and more free for him.
Yeah. Bugs is like me on the weekends. Which I mean the whole time. Like Bugs is the one who is like the play in motion. And Lily and Francis is like the work in motion. Where like she's hustling and like she's still creating. Her day still consists of editing a video, recording a song, making a fanny pack, and like illustrating a book. Like she's still being expansively creative, but she's getting the shit done. Whereas Bugs is purely like, let's.
What are we gonna do today?
Like how is your relationship with creativity as process versus creativity as product? Like what's your relationship with that? you put pressure on yourself? Like no, you mentioned like, know, 200 monthly Spotify listeners. So I'm curious, like creativity as just, this is an energy that I'm hyper fixated on for this year, this month, this decade, rather than, no, I need to be outputting product for X user, X consumer, X fan, X community.
You know, I feel like I'm kind of never like starting or releasing music. I'm always just like finishing music. Like I swear to God last year has just been like me trying to finish songs that I've been writing over the last like three years. I actually don't write a ton of songs. Well, I mean, I don't know, maybe like a song a month. So depending on how much you actually write, like I have enough songs that I write in a year that I'm proud of. But the finishing takes so much time.
Lillian Frances (23:43.918)
The, do I really want that drum sound? Should I swap that out? Is that really the synth I want? Should I swap it out? Should I rerecord my vocals? Do I want to add another like a little like bridge here or like not like all of those and then the mixing, that's like the final 20 % of tidying that takes 80 % of the time. So I spent a lot of time in that land this year because like I haven't released an album since 2020 and I'm a pop star.
Like, but I don't have any music. So like, in terms of my creativity and like my, like the product and the like creation, I'm not pushing myself to like, I gotta write more songs so I can release more songs. I'm like, I don't have enough songs. I just need to finish them and put them out. And I'm constantly coming up with new ideas. Well, every time I'm always coming up with new ideas, but there's a difference between taking those ideas and formulating them into a recorded song that I can release.
and taking those ideas and playing them for myself in my morning routine every morning. And so I have a lot of songs that are like that. So at any given moment, if I want to drill a song, I can be like, well, you have 35 unrecorded songs or unfinished songs that you can finish. it's like over like last year and a half, I've been like developing the album that I or like bringing together, like, which one are the songs that I have that are almost finished? What are the songs that I like? What's going on in next album? What's like the et cetera. And so I'm like,
Almost, almost there.
And then like when it comes to that, cause there's sort of the creative process, the beauty of just bountiful generation, like, I got all these demos. They're playing in the background in the morning, you know, 30 songs this past month or this past year. And then the kind of the album, the thing that I want to share, publish, release. Like what's the relationship around resistance or the sensor? Is there a degree, I'm curious of like perfectionism that comes up like, oh, I should get a different synth sound. This mix is a little bit too trebly or whatever. Is that sort of.
Mishu Hilmy (25:45.934)
the resistance sensor perfectionism made manifest? it discernment? Is it a mixture of a lot of things? Like what have you thought about or journeyed about when it comes to like, why has it taken, why am I not actually struggling, but what seems to slow me down?
Yeah, and I would say like, does it take me so long? Because this is an album that I can't believe it's taken me this long. It's literally insane. The reason I haven't finished it is because I don't prioritize my own projects in general, and I'm working on other people's projects a lot. So I'm like, okay, I have time to finish up the album. And then I get pinged for a mixing project. I'm like, okay, then I'm mixing someone else's songs. And then I'll pick up my songs again two weeks later. And then I get pinged to do this thing. And so I'm doing that.
So I'm always prioritizing the things that are paying me directly. And then when I have time, I'm working on my course, finishing my course, I'm working on finishing my album. But then it's funny because then I'll have periods where not a lot of work is coming in. I'll have a month and nothing really happens. And then I get really anxious and I'm like, wait, Lily, this is the whole, you've been dying for a month to work on your own shit. You're fine not working for a month. Finish your project.
That's really what the last couple months have been. It's just been like, okay, I wanna, I do have time and space right now. And so I just need to absolutely put all the focus into that. But I wouldn't say that I have a unhealthy critic. I think I'm a really healthy critic. not like, I love my music. I think I'm like God's gift to the world. I said that as a joke, but I love my music. I will listen to my music on a drive. I'm like, wow, it's so beautiful. We always think the things we create are like.
just the most beautiful. The same thing with me. But I have a healthy ear on it where I'm like, yeah, this is too bassy. And then that's like a mixing thing. I'm like, what's wrong with this synth? Do we need to like re-identify it? But then sometimes I'll spend 15 hours editing my vocals and it's like, do we need to take 10 takes of my vocals or maybe just three? But I do because that's how we get better. And the difference between taking 10 takes and taking three takes is only like 40 minutes.
Mishu Hilmy (27:57.102)
Yeah, I think it's a tough thing to sort of trust and engage because there's like genuine problem solving and then I don't necessarily want to say perfectionism, but there's sometimes, you know, the creative process is the creative process and whether you're flowing, I think there's like the spirit behind it or the energy behind it. Is it driven by fear or is it driven by like, I don't know, I'm kind of curious. I don't feel, I don't feel that whatever. I just don't feel excited about it. I'll do 10 more takes.
And then you sleep on it and you're actually, like, well take three was fine. Actually, I like this thing and I stem it together. But sometimes in the moment, maybe you're, you're sort of playing around with the feeling rather than, you know, what can, you know, ostensibly just move on to the next thing.
I just like really rather have ten takes where I can listen to every single one and like I just know I have it in there. You know, I know I have the best take in there and then I don't have to go back in and record again because it takes mental energy to convince myself to warm up my voice, know, make my tea, you know, get everything set up and like I just want to, know, like bang it all the
Yeah, you're already there. You're already there. Cause I think starting, even if you have a healthy relationship with your creative process, like I, I agree. Starting is the hardest thing. It's like sit down, go to the keyboard or whatever your devices or tool is like the, that's usually the threshold of resistance for me. It's like once I'm starting, it's all right. But if I could avoid having to start, cause I'm already doing it might as well spend an extra 30 minutes. Then avoid it. And then I had a question cause you mentioned sort of.
Exactly. Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (29:27.938)
you know, being a service to others, working on either client projects or different mixes, edits, cuts, et cetera. Like how are you dealing with where you're at right now with your prioritization? Cause it sounds like just at least in that moment, there might be a more of a priority. mean, if it's paying, I can say that's a priority, but like, how do you deal with, wow, I just spent six months prioritizing other people's sort of things and not so much my own. So what's your relationship with like a
the challenges around creating priorities.
mean, just feeling like I can't do it all. That's how I deal with it. You know, like I'll teach a class, for example, like a two-month, I teach a two-month production course and it's only in actually four hours of in-person or on Zoom, like talking a week. It is all consuming because at least last time I taught the class, was like...
Really doing a, like I've taught the class before, so there's not a ton in terms of like the itinerary and stuff to change, but every year I go through and I make it even better and I'll add more images and like, you know, just keep developing it to make sure I'm presenting things in the right order and have the right examples. So I spend a lot of time like going through my notes, preparing myself. I'll do like a run through of all my classes where I will sit down and actually teach for two hours to a blank screen. And then, then I'll do my two hour course. And then I filmed the course.
So that's what I was doing last time I was doing this course is that I was like, I don't want to teach this slide to get to take so much work. I want to just have it online, which took so much more work. And so I actually finally finished the recording and editing of that course, which took about 16 months long. But when I was doing that, I couldn't really be doing anything else, you know?
Mishu Hilmy (31:20.042)
I think having a healthy relationship with trade-offs versus the spirit of like, can do it all. I just read this book, Essentialism. It was an okay book, I think. But one of the things I did appreciate about it was like, just really being like people who aren't doing essential things have an unclear unhealthy relationship with trade-offs where they're almost not being honest with themselves around. If I do this, the trade-off is I can't do that. And I think there might be like less anxiety or less, you know.
being mean to yourself if you're like, no, I'm committed to this project because I see long-term, you know, experiences or value from it. But the trade-off is like, yeah, I spent 16 months with like a lot of deep energy and deep focus on this thing that will hopefully be an asynchronous tool to help serve others.
Yeah. But now the real work starts. Now I actually have to make ads, run ads, do a whole marketing campaign, like create a bunch of free content for leads, you know? It just, doesn't end. And I think that's another intimidating part where I'm like, oh man, I want to set all this up, but then I'm still going to have to manage it every day and I have to swap out ads and I'm to have to run customer support for people. I'm like, I just actually, I just want to go.
camping with my friends is actually what I want to do. then, but then I remember I do have to be an adult and this is the best case scenario is that I get to make my own hours. I got to take off whenever I want. I slept in until 10 a.m. this morning. Right. And you know, because I do not schedule any meetings before noon because I want to have that flexibility. Yeah. And the alternative is a nine to five and I certainly can't have that. So.
Yeah.
Lillian Frances (33:01.772)
I just, like my, I don't know. I've had a nine to five once. It was 10 years ago and it was for two months. I have to like remind myself that like other people actually work and it sucks and I should be really happy that I get to be stressed out about creating a chorus. It stresses the hell out of me, but I'm like, I rather distress the hell out of me than something else that I have to wake up at 7 a.m. and do for someone else. know, stress the hell out of me.
Yeah. Yeah. It has its price, right? Like it's every, you know, it's a strategy to meet a need and like getting money is that need for security and financial security. And it's like, you'd become aware at a certain point where the day job or the nine to five was a strategy. Maybe it just isn't nourishing or just not interesting to you versus, right, this is a strategy I'm choosing to meet that need. And at the same time, it comes with its own challenges of it's independent. You're the boss. And then there's administrative elements.
I mean, maybe now you're working 60 to 80 hours a week for this thing versus a day job might be so sucking, but it's 40, 40, know, 50 hours. It's like a interesting trade off to have to confront. Cause now you're like, all right, I did all the building. I edited it. I cut it. I made these, you know, chaptered it out. And now it's like, that's just production. And now it comes to like running the business of ads lead generation. you using like StanStore or Udemy or?
you know, other or your own platform to like, get people to get the digital goods.
Yeah, yeah, it's just a lot. Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (34:33.611)
Yeah. So like, you, are right with that? Like how much does that conflict with the pop star, pop star-ness of where you, you try to maintain or exert all your energy or is this a manifestation of that by way of digital courses?
I mean, it's hard just because I feel like I'm just running two separate businesses and I want to them both all my love, but I can't. However, I really feel passionately about staying in this sector and staying in music production period. And I don't want to get another job, even if it's like a bartender or anything, because I want all of my time to go into deepening what I really want, which is to be the best music producer in the world and to have an online empire.
And those are two big goals that I need to be working towards. And if I'm working towards a brewery job, like that's cool because I have hours that I know and I have things that I know, you know, and there's stability in that. But I would much rather be spending that time and that energy building something that is going to be better for me personally and something and make me better at what I do. every time I'm so happy every time I mix an album,
Because I'm essentially getting paid to get better at what I already love to do, what I already do. You know, every time I make a song, I'm learning how to write a song better. So I'm trying to put all of my eggs into those baskets. So I count any creativity really under the umbrella of like, it's pop star shit. I love, love like...
textile arts, creating fanny packs, doing fashion, all that stuff, like epoxy, jewelry making, like anything I can make with my hands, I love making shit with my hands. And that feels like work to me. again, the week before I was going to Burning Man, had so much to fucking finish. And I was like, I need to make this fanny pack. I had an itch about making a fanny pack and making these like pendant flags.
Lillian Frances (36:40.842)
And I had to do both of them before I went to the burn. know? So it's like, those don't contribute at all really to being a pop star, but they contribute to my overall, to my creativity. And as we know from the artist's way, creativity in all forms is important. The act of creation is really what's important. The muscle about the, the muscle regarding the idea to action pipeline is one that we need to flex every single, every single day. And I, I,
This is a term I coined recently, the idea to action pipeline, which is just as soon as I get an idea about anything, immediately going to the solutions. You want to like play a show here. Okay, well that sounds stressful, but let's bring it down. What set would you play? Okay, who would you want to play it with? What are five people, who are five people you can reach out to to play with? What are four venues you can get the names of that you can, know, just like breaking it up.
And then if you just immediately go to the solutions, you just don't even have time for the problems. I don't have time for the problems anymore. I do not have time for the problems. So any problem that's like, sounds hard or that's gonna be a lot of work or that's far away. It's like, okay, well, that's hard. What about it is hard? That's a lot of work. What about it is a lot of work? That's far away. Do you have a problem with driving? Last time I checked, Lillian, you'll send eight hours to Joshua Tree if you want to right now. You don't give a fuck about distance. And so...
Practicing that when it comes to, I want to make a fanny pack or I want to write a book or I want to do my screen door broke or I'm out of incense. just I'm really been getting good this last time around reading The Artist's Way in the last like two, three months. Really identifying whenever I'm feeling a sticking point. Because once you identify it, because so many times you can't even identify it. Like you don't even like acknowledge or like realize that like there was a sticking point there. It'd be something as easy as like
you run out of ice cubes, you know, and the sticking point is filling it back up and you set the tray in the sink instead of just filling it up right there. Like that is something that my brain loves to catch. like, well you totally wanted to put it down, but you're gonna overcome that and you're gonna do that really hard task of filling up those 10 little cubes and putting them in the freezer. And that expands to every area.
Mishu Hilmy (38:59.918)
I think it's solid, especially like, you know, the artist way that element of like, you know, by you sewing a fanny pack, you're more likely to then finish a song. Like there's a relationship between the act of creativity just builds that muscle. And I do like, at least also in the artist way of those things that you might not be aware of, you know, sometimes it's resentment and it's like, all right, do I have the journal exercise of like, oh, I resent X, Y or Z and then just speaking to the fear or the resentment. Like, oh, I would rather be.
writing some music right now, but I got a lot of ice and I want to enjoy a nice cold beverage, but I resent that I'm interrupting my recording or my writing process. So I'm just going to leave it on the counter and walk away. It's, know, to catch that awareness of like, well, what's going on? Why can't I just take 92 seconds to not even, it's probably like more like 28 seconds to just stream water onto your thing. But it's good to just have that practice of awareness. I like to,
play around and joke with myself of remember to die, decide it's easy, die, just decide it's easy. And for you, it's like breaking down the thing, it's smaller component parts. And then when you look at the component parts, like what's so hard about that component part? Die, decide it's easy. What makes it hard, I think is doing it every day. Like the amount of repetition, I think that's what makes it very difficult of any creative practice. You want to write an album, you got to write songs. You want to write a song, you need to create ideas and lyrics and
Exactly.
Mishu Hilmy (40:25.408)
instrumentation, the act of like writing a lyric pencil on page is not objectively hard, but it's like all the, buildup, the resentment, the insecurity, the fear, the judgment that like cloud the brain to be like, can't even put graphite to paper because I'm just bottled up.
Exactly. And then acknowledging that and be like, okay, that's Yeah. Right about that. And then let's do it anyways.
Yeah, do it poorly and die.
Do it poorly. That's another thing for me is I'm I'm remembering. It's like, just do it and then come back and then revise it. Just do it. It's okay. Your first course doesn't have to be the most spectacular thing ever. You can do it and then learn what went wrong and then get better and then do it again. like, even though like right now I am so, so far behind in my career compared to what I thought I would be, where we thought I would be. And then I just remind myself, be like, okay, well, let's see, 10 years ago,
you were not jaded and you were just so enthusiastic and you had so many dreams and you were so set on getting them. Now, I feel way more like, yeah, I have a zero chance of getting a million streams on Spotify. Like I don't feel, you know, unfortunately I'm like, I've lost a lot of my optimism because I feel like I've been at this for so long and I don't have any traction. And it's really, it's maddening. It's like, am I not good? Maybe.
Lillian Frances (41:49.294)
There's a lot of good people out there. I do remind myself that don't have a lot of traction at all. I have so many friends who are incredible. I friends who have amazing social media strategies, amazing music, and they're still getting, you know, 200 views on their TikToks. I remind myself that like, it's kind of random. There's a lot of people doing this. You have control over it, but like you don't. And I am in a better place now.
I'm a better musician, I'm a better singer, I'm a better producer, I'm more connected, I have a better understanding of the industry than I ever had before and therefore I'm in a better position now than I was 10 years ago. So that's when I try to remind myself when I'm like hard on myself where it's like, why are you even doing this? And like, you're like less popular than you were 10 years ago, which in some ways is true, unfortunately. But then it's like, okay, well, would I tell anybody?
at the beginning stages of their music production journey, it's hard and I wouldn't do it. And the chances are you're not gonna get this kind of like success quote unquote that you want. No, I would never do that. I wouldn't even necessarily believe it, right? I would never say that. So I think about myself, I'm like, if I'm not here encouraging all of my students who are just starting, who are 10 years behind me in terms of like production knowledge to do it and like you got it and like you're gonna learn it and like it's gonna get better, like.
I have to extend that to myself and be like, okay, you were just like you were except for you have 10 more years of knowledge. You know what I remind myself that like in LA, like I'm 10 years better this time that I live in LA. Cause I lived in LA like 10 years ago. went to music production school in LA. I'm like, I am 10 years better than I was then. And that's gotta fucking count for something. And we've gotta make some lemonade from those lemons.
It's like, think a couple of things that I sort of think about it here is like, there's one, the evolution of the dream or how the dream sort of gets more textured, more nuanced versus maybe the bright eyed and bushy tailed potential naivete of like just pure confidence, pure whatever. And then as 10 years go by with more and more sort of experiences, mounting evidence that that dream evolves. at the same time, it's like the success, like how do you practice what is
Mishu Hilmy (44:02.102)
You're much like how you define and subvert the identity of pop star. How do you define and subvert the identity of success? And like the irony is like pop is short for popular, how to navigate that kind of relationship. But also like you can only control what you're doing. And like, did I write a lyric today? Did I sing a melody into my voice memo on my phone today? Like if you're doing that and you're light and content,
and joyful and curious day over day. To me, that's a greater success than Lillian's got 5 million monthly listens, but they're depressed and anxious and hate being on stage and hate the world. Not that it's like either or, but I think if you don't take the time to define success, you run the risk of another default.
And the way like I convinced myself to move to LA because I was living in Sacramento for a long time before Los Angeles and I loved living in Sacramento. I had a really great rent control apartment, lived really close to nature. I had a bunch of friends in the Bay, which I like love. Like my full like music community was not in Sacramento. So like I was kind like on my own for the week, but then I would go to the Bay every weekend and my parents live so close by. what, you know, I was thinking a lot about like what
What do you want? I'm like, one, god damn it, I need to move to LA because I'm tired of working hard. I want to work smarter, not harder. And working smarter means being in the right places with the right people. you know, and also defining success as like, what do I want from music? I'm like, well, I know that I want to make music with, I want to produce music with the best producers in the world. I would have a music community where like I'm,
respected and sought out and like admired and I get to create with whoever I want to create with. And I get to go like to fun festivals and watch my friends play and like play myself and like, et cetera, et cetera. Like I want that. And I was like, okay, I can do that in Los Angeles hands down, you know? And then, but then the further down this road I get, the further I'm like, well, maybe I don't want to make my money off of pop music. Maybe I want to make my money off of music production courses.
Lillian Frances (46:12.11)
the more of like that. But then I'm like, well, then are you giving up? It's like, well, no, maybe I'm just, you know. And also like when I become more authentically myself, that's when I'm more attractive to fans. That's when my music gets better. So it's kind of cool having a job in which I like, it is my job to become fully embodied. It is my job to say what I want to say, to wear what I want to say, to go where I want to go.
to connect in the ways that I want to. It is my job because that is going to make me more me. And the more authentic I can be inside, the more authentic I can be outside. And the more authentic I'm outside, especially on social media, the more people are going to resonate with me. So it's like, that's really, think, where I'm trying to go now has been like, am I being authentic to myself? Okay, put that out. And that's going to attract the people who are attracted to me. And then if enough people are attracted to that, then great.
And if not a lot are, then I'm one out of how many million people trying to do what I'm trying to do right now. What makes a band stick? What makes an artist, like what makes you want to listen to an artist? I'm still trying to figure that out. And the closest I can come is just be yourself.
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's an interesting question. Even thought experiment. read a book, uh, earlier this year, maybe at the last year called Hollywood economics published in 2001 by a economist, know, PhD doctor kind of person. And he talks about sort of stochastic, uh, stochastic nature of creativity and stochastic being sort of very random in a kind of distribution pattern. the most common distribution pattern most people know are the bell curve, right? Like this is.
the shape of it, the round sort of the curve of a bell, but something that's stochastic is incredibly random and things like movie careers, music careers, songs, like charts. There's something to be said about how frivolous it is and random it is. there's so many variables. It's virtually impossible to statistically peg it to like one, two, three or 10 signals. So for me, it's like, if I let go of like trying to figure it out and just focus on like,
Mishu Hilmy (48:25.11)
You were saying sort of the authenticity of my relationship to the process. I'll probably be happier and it'll let go of that thing of like I'm in control. Like how can I practice letting go of control and be like, I did this. If only I sounded like that, then I would have a top hit. And maybe there are people who say this is what makes a pop song and I'm speaking out of school and that's totally fine. But I think I find myself a little bit more relaxed when it's like.
The zeitgeist, the energy, the political climate, the cultural climate, the financial climate. What makes something hit in 2010 is different than what makes something hit in 2020 versus 2025. And those are very hard to statistically find any probabilistic causes of like why Lillian blew up in, you know, this year versus not five years ago. Yeah. I find grace and being like, wait a minute, I'm in control of none of it. All I can control is.
Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (49:19.256)
Did I like making the thing I made while I was making it? Yeah. Maybe it, maybe it gained attraction. Maybe it didn't.
Yeah. And I also find solace in that. you I find comfort in that because it takes off a little bit of the pressure. like, okay, did we do our best today? No? Okay, try tomorrow.
You're right. Yeah. Like I think a lot also about accomplishment and that's a very important part of like the fully fleshed human experience part of also like self actualization. Like the goal, you know, people climb mountains for that reason. And I think things like having sustained creative career is much like climbing the highest mountain on this planet. But given that like people who do want to climb the highest mountain on the planet, they're blocked.
in, whether for 10 years or five years or one year, that's like what they're really focused on. And if I want that kind of struggle, that achievement, then it's like, how do I have that sort of peak level of performance? And if it's not super intense, like within one year, but by the end of my life, then all right, how do I track? Like I'm going to read some mountain climbing manuals. I'll watch some videos. I'll connect with instructors. But if I'm not doing it and I'm focusing more about like,
Wait, who was the best who climbed it the fastest last year? Like that's, that's a distraction.
Lillian Frances (50:37.932)
Yeah, totally. I mean, can be, you know, encouragement, but you don't want to let it take you down.
Right. Yeah. And when it comes to say like nonviolent communication, like the exploration of a dream and the evolution of a dream, think to myself a lot about how I started in theater and I was like, I'm going to get on SNL. Like, boom, I'm going to, you know, do a few years in New York city, get on a, you know, a sexy house team at the UCB theater and get the attention of all these, you know, showbiz folks. And then I moved to Chicago. All right. I'll cut my teeth anonymously in Chicago and get there. But then that changed. And now I have, you know, more doing filmmaking.
But the evolution of a dream, I reflect a lot around like the need for trust and the question of like, do I still trust myself? Like, is this still the thing I want? And if it is, if it is or isn't, I think the need for trust is can I, might be content with where I end up deciding to go. And I think that's an interesting kind of challenge to confront where it's like, I used to want to do this, but then I no longer want to do it. What's that say about my soul or who I am?
Oh, that can be rattling for sure. I fell in love with rock climbing in 2020. I rock climbing as a kid. I worked in a climbing gym in high school and did the junior teams and stuff, but never really did outdoor climbing and kind of forgot about it for like a decade. And then in 2020, started like, had this need inside me to go to Joshua Tree. like, I don't know why I'm going to go Joshua Tree this weekend. I'm going to go by myself. And I went down there.
and I went down there for like a week and I ended up meeting some climbers and like it took me down this incredible path where like for the next couple years I was just obsessed with rock climbing and I was like traveling all over the place. I was going to Squamish and Bishop and Red Rocks and know Smith Rock and Joshua Tree and Yosemite and just all over as much as I could and so I would be out camping for like weeks at a time and this was
Lillian Frances (52:33.678)
kind of right after I'd released my first album where I was putting so, so, so, so, so much into it. And then, actually it was kind of interesting. I was like, put my absolute fucking heart and soul into this and into the release. And then it was being released that June 5th, 2020, which was the week of the George Floyd protests or the first George Floyd protests. Not a great time to release art. So that was kind of crazy because I did all of this lead up into it. And then I didn't like day of, there was all that, you know, like,
don't post anything that isn't a black square stuff. I was like, all right, well, I guess I won't even announce my albums out. That actually had probably a really big impact on now that think about it and I'm to try not to think about it too hard because it's just going to really hurt my feelings. But I think that had a really big impact on me for years to come and even now.
because afterwards I was so exhausted and I saw zero fruit of the labor and it led me to zero other opportunities because I just shut everything down. I called off the blog posts that were going to be written about it, like all this stuff. And I found it really hard to get back up again. I was just really fully pooped and didn't want to another project. so anyways, I started climbing and then I fully fell in love with rock climbing and it was kind of a mindfuck to me because it was the first time I loved anything more than music.
And I was like, no, do I need to become a full-time dirt bag and buy a van and just like travel the country climbing? Like, I do want to do that. And I kind of did do that for a couple of years. then, and then now this year is when I've been like, whoa, I need to get back. I knew I got to release an album, you know, like I've had a nice time, like climbing every weekend for the last like two years. And now I need to like release an album. So now it's like back to.
You know, like launch so badly. Like next week, my friend wants to go climbing with me and I'm like, I don't know, I should probably stay at home and work on the release. But I'm like, or I could go rock climbing with my one precious life. You know, I'm like constantly torn between like one fun thing and another fun thing.
Mishu Hilmy (54:32.886)
Yeah, trade-offs. Trade-offs. That's like a decision. that's like, you know, having, I like having a structure or context. That's why I do value non-violent communication. like, well, what need is more of a priority? Like, do I want to my need for adventure and connection with a friend, or do I want to meet my need for space and, you know, integrity when it comes to like this thing that I told myself I want to do it over the weekend and now I'm sort of dithering on that. So I think it's a helpful construct to like return to the needs.
But yeah, to be confronted with the choices. And there's no wrong choice. There's no right choice. just like, some might meet your needs in ways that are more enjoyable or more fulfilling than others. sometimes you don't know until you're like, oh shit, I've been in a car for four hours. I kind of just wish I was in my studio.
Totally. You know, because I had so many incredible adventures, know, I think about it all the time and I miss it, but I'm like so grateful that I got those adventures in the time of my life where like I was purposely like not working a ton and like there wasn't a lot going on. Like I was working enough, but like, you know, and like now I'm way more like, you know, I told you every single day in July and August, I worked every single day. didn't go once to like.
the beach, didn't go on to go rock climbing, I didn't go out in nature because I was like, okay, we need to prioritize this. Yeah. You know? And like right now I'm prioritizing my course, I'm prioritizing being a pop star and moving to LA and I'm not prioritizing nature as much because I also know that I've had a ton of that and I love it. I'm so grateful for that. And it's like now it's like, okay, this is your turn to do more music stuff. But give me another year and I might be buying a van and getting on the road and just fucking around and climbing.
Yeah, you never know. mean, it's a mix of either balance or discovery and learning. But I do think like if you're saturated in one area, you might realize, yeah, I've had so many adventures this past year doing X, Y, or Z. I'm kind of more curious and excited about doing this very particular thing where from an outsider's view, like, what are you talking about? You should be out in nature. know, nature is generally healthier. Being social is generally healthier. And at the same time, there's something beautiful about.
Mishu Hilmy (56:34.094)
listening to the inner voice that says, no, I'm actually really excited about focusing on this thing.
Normally I switch when I'm like, can't take another day without. Like I'm like, I literally can't go live. I like, I need to release that album. Like I can't go another day without having this album out. I'm going to fucking lose it. And then I'll be like on it. But now I'm like getting to a place where I'm like, I cannot go another day until I'm in an Alpine lake. You know? And like, and then it's like, okay, time for me to get the fuck out there.
Yeah, yeah. And like finding the shades and the gradations there. And then lastly, I'm curious to given how uncertain the creative industries are, like how have you been staying motivated or connected with your creative practice?
I just have no other choice. But I feel stressed out. I feel overwhelmed. feel super overwhelmed, feel stressed out. I feel like I'm creating content when really all I wanna do is create music. I feel like I'm wasting a lot of time trying to build this and trying to build that. And everything just has 19 steps. And I'm like, I just wanna do what I love. So I think the way that I stay connected to it is one, I have no other choice. have to create, it's what I do, it's what I love. I don't really think about it. But like...
Having space in the morning is pretty important where I'm like, I know you are feeling anxious about this mixing project and you want to get it finished immediately, but please, Lillian, please just work on your own shit for two hours. Or like, really am anxious, I want to get started for the day mixing this song, but I know I have to practice guitar because I can't stand getting worse at guitar. And then I have to do it. So I think it's just, yeah, I think I'm a pretty driven person.
Lillian Frances (58:16.312)
pretty good at that and like doing what I set my mind to. And it gives me a lot of satisfaction. Like when I'm like in the flow and I'm like knocking projects out and finishing this and I'm finishing this, like I'm getting so much satisfaction by doing it that it gets kind of addicting. You know, working good addicting.
Yeah. mean, flow states are like, there's some of the most enjoyous, wow, I just spent five hours mixing or editing or whatever. It's like, it's like an incredible form of disassociation.
It's wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. And I love it when my work is like that, when I'm like, I know about to fuck around on something that like I enjoy or that's, it's not going to take up like mental energy or I can do it and feel productive at the same time.
Thank so much, Lillian, for sharing. It's been a real pleasure to get to chat for this past hour.
Yeah, thanks for having me, Shu. I had such a sweet time chatting and I have been thinking a lot about creativity lately, so getting a platform to kind of hash it out is appreciated. So thank you for listening and thanks for having me on the pod.
Mishu Hilmy (59:11.903)
I'll stop recording.
Mishu Hilmy (59:34.68)
Before sending you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed this show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little Mischief motivation. Alrighty little...
Creative prompt, you know what? I'm feeling like a diva. I'm feeling like a pop star. So I'll give you two. This one is the energy swap. So yeah, if you're feeling drained and the big projects are kind of scaring you or seem overwhelming, switch to some low effort tasks. You can still finish, whether it's organizing files or folders on your computer or labeling drafts, anything. Just do something small that's kind of mechanical and go for it. That's the smallest thing because research around
Behavioral activation shows that even small completions can contribute to Motivation so give that a shot. Here's the other one environmental cues This is one about your environment Just place a tool where you can't ignore it a guitar on your desk a notebook lying on your keyboard maybe headphones dangling over your phone in the morning to remind you to Listen to a mix or whatever habit researchers like BJ fog
point out that visible cues make behaviors way easier to start. So put it somewhere where you will see it. Do it to your environment. And yeah, I'm thinking about putting a camera next to my shoes. So whenever I walk out, I take it with me and start doing little films or videos or I don't know, something like that. All right, thanks for listening this far. Have a great rest of your day. And my voice might be scratchy because I'm recovering from COVID.
So stay safe out there, get your flu shots, get your vaccines.