The Best Course in the World Is a Par 66

Jim Hartsell will tell you the best golf course in the world is 4,800 yards and a par 66. He is not being cute about it. He would like you to come after him.

In this episode of The Bag Drop: Untold Stories in Golf, host Matt Considine and co‑host Dr. Kevin Moore (a.k.a. “The Professor”) sit down with Jim Hartsell — architect, three-time Bag Drop guest, and author of A Round of Scottish Courses — for a conversation about what thirty years of returning to the same small Scottish clubs teaches you about why golf places matter, and what a golfer owes a place once he starts telling everyone about it.

The conversation dives into:

• Why Dunaverty — 4,800 yards, par 66 — is his answer to "best course in the world," and why he thinks the question is usually asked wrong
• What choosing eighteen favorites instead of eighteen best freed him to write — and how a chapter actually gets built, including the sheepdog trials that unlocked a lost course on Arran
• The night the Old Course put a flag on the 18th green made from a drawing his nine-year-old son had left on his laptop
• The green-fee trap: why North Berwick and Brora keep going up, and why tour operators refuse to take a £30 course seriously
• Whether writing about Dunaverty, Askernish and Isle of Harris is quietly changing them — and what the members themselves say about that
• Three rules for being a good guest at a Scottish club, including the one about tipping too much

Connect with our guests

📚 Jim Hartsell — https://jhartsellgolf.com — 🐦 X/Twitter: https://x.com/JimHHartsell](https://x.com/JimHHartsell) | 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jimhartsell/

📕 A Round of Scottish Courses (Back Nine Press) — https://back9press.com/products/a-round-of-scottish-courses

🎧 The Duffer's Literary Companion (Jim & Stephen Proctor) — https://tdlcpodcast.podbean.com

Join the NewClub community

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Connect with Matt & The Professor

🎙️ Matt Considine — 🐦 X/Twitter: https://x.com/consequential85 | 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/consequence18/ | 💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-considine-103bb21/

📚 Dr. Kevin Moore ("The Professor") — 🐦 X/Twitter: https://x.com/kevcmoore | 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kevcmoore | 💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-moore-177b30b3/

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Chapters

00:00 Cold open: the anticipation is half the fun

00:41 Welcome, and the Professor's new office

02:16 A love letter to the game: who your club introduces you to

03:01 Caddie School for Soldiers and thirty days at the Home of Golf

04:31 Jim Hartsell, third appearance, third book

06:34 Professor's teaching: quiet eye and gaze duration

11:29 Ad read: Titleist T-Series and the three Ds

13:52 Three books, one thread

15:09 The course gets you in the room; a person carries the story

16:32 The high school English teacher who started all this

19:31 Calling Rob Collins with a crazy idea

23:29 Fifty interviews, an outline, and meeting Jim Sitar

26:40 The books that made him: Wind, Bamberger, Morton, MacVicar

31:18 When Revelation Comes, and the notebook that read like a book

35:25 Patric Dickinson's eighteen best, and Jim's eighteen favorite

38:53 Dunaverty is the best course in the world: 4,800 yards, par 66

42:07 Soup, clubhouses, and the whole lived experience

45:40 Sheepdog trials, and when history earns its place in a chapter

49:56 What do you have against the Scottish east coast?

51:44 Frankfurt, a lost day, and a morning inside the R&A

54:33 Dark hours on the Old with a persimmon driver

56:52 The flag on the eighteenth green

1:00:35 Why the most famous place in golf did not have to do that

1:02:21 Does writing about these places change them?

1:06:40 North Berwick, Brora, and being too cheap to be taken seriously

1:07:46 Would the veneer wear off if you moved there?

1:12:14 Three rules for being a good guest (and don't over-tip)

1:14:41 Calendars, course guides, and Jordan's junior program

1:19:27 Close: subscribe, review, and the Titleist T-Series

Creators and Guests

Host

Matt Considine

Founder of NewClub and our resident feel player. Matt’s junior golf career led him to the University of Akron where he met our co-host. During his junior year, Matt Studied abroad in Ireland and discovered golf societies. Subsequent trips to Scotland fed his passion for the history, ideals, and culture of accessible, affordable, and sustainable golf, a concept he would later bring to the U.S. with NewClub. Known for his interviewing style, quick wit, and compelling storytelling, Matt brings thoughtful, reflective conversations to The Bag Drop. His professional journey before NewClub included multiple leadership positions in growth-stage startups, where he managed teams responsible for more than $250 million in revenue. Matt actively gives back to the game as a Board Member of the First Tee of Akron and past chair of the Evans Scholar Foundation. Proudly based in his hometown of Akron, Ohio, Matt finds inspiration in family life with his wife, their three children, and their golf dog, Gypsy.

Host

The Professor

NewClub's Chief Ambassador and every golf sicko's favorite educator. Kevin is a thoughtful and deeply curious host. His studied, constructivist approach adds intellectual enrichment and balance to the show. As a professor of Math Education at the University of Georgia, Kevin's background in applied mathematics and cognitive psychology uniquely informs his insights on golf strategy and performance. Originally from Ohio, Kevin was a Division I collegiate golfer at the University of Akron, where his passion for understanding mathematical thinking began. After earning his doctorate from Arizona State University, he combined his analytical expertise with his love for golf by co-founding Golf Blueprint, an organization aimed at helping golfers optimize their games through data-driven strategies. Kevin enjoys balancing deep philosophical discussions with simple pleasures, such as indulging his sweet tooth, cheering on college football, and spending relaxed evenings with his friends, his wife, and their beloved dog, Nole.

What is The Bag Drop: Untold Stories in Golf?

Deeply researched audio documentaries that tell the definitive stories behind golf's greatest clubs + weekly conversations with the characters and communities shaping golf today.

Jim Hartsell (00:00)
it's something that's maybe a little bit of a cliche to people, but it's really the journey

Just something is just as important as the destination of of getting there. And I think if there's one common theme that runs through all three of those books, I think you'll find that. what you who you meet along the way, the things that happen while you're trying to get somewhere, is just as important as the as and I say it I've written this in t probably two of the books, but you know, the anticipation of something is is

is almost half the fun of doing it. And so if there is a common thread, I think that might be it, yeah.

Matt Considine (00:41)
Welcome to the Bagdrop, Untold Stories in Golf. I'm your host, Matt Considine here with my co-host, The Professor. Professor, good morning to you, sir.

The Professor (00:50)
Good morning, sir. You know, there are a few things I enjoy more than setting up a new office and I've been spending way too much time on the home office, possibly to the declare's dislike as I start moving things and changing things.

Matt Considine (01:05)
it looks great. I love it. And we don't have all the leather bound books. In your other office, are those math books? They can't all be math books, right? They can't all be just about the

The Professor (01:11)
We do not.

Math and psychology. Pretty much all the ones behind me are math and yeah, one of the two.

Matt Considine (01:18)
Math and psychology. But we we

we got some good stuff. I know it's it's an audio version of the pod still, so we don't have to but maybe I'll just describe one of your favorite things that you selected back there.

The Professor (01:30)
man, I got a lot. I got a a monthly medal from from our society. That's something I keep a couple of them hanging around the house as just a reminder of honestly the golf society and the crew th there. I've got the Endeavour, me and Chris Miller's championship year at the Endeavour behind me. That's definitely a cherished a cherished memory doing that with the mills. that one will always stick with me. you know, and we we could have had it last year, but you know, someone had the late cancel, I guess. And yeah.

Matt Considine (01:59)
Hey, we'll we'll get that thing front and center next year, I promise. Or maybe I will do my best. I I you know, that that kind of leads me, and I was thinking about today's guest. We got a really special guest today. I'll get to that in a second. But I want to do a quick love letter to the game, if you will. Just a minute

The Professor (02:15)
okay.

Matt Considine (02:16)
or two. and and v via new club. This isn't like it it an ad by any stretch of the imagination, but I just wanted to say

You know, new club and our new chapters were we're growing. And it's not just the people in that club that you get introduced to, it's who those people introduce you to. And I just looked at my last week professor, and and I think this is a really good reflection on a lead-in to Jim Hartzell, our guest today, is that because of my golf society, you know, a more attainable membership, a a diverse

a more diverse group of of golfing members in that. In Northeast Ohio, I've been introduced by members of the new club in the last week to excuse me to a a group of firefighters who who were cheering me down the summit county and last green, which was awesome. I was introduced to a a wounded veteran who started an organization called Caddy School for Caddy School for for soldiers.

And they send caddies to St. Andrews for I'm sorry, wounded veterans, people primarily folks who are battling PTSD. They send them to Scotland for thirty straight days at the Homa Golf and

The Professor (03:27)
wow.

Matt Considine (03:28)
teach them how to be caddies. So him and I are are having awesome conversations and looking forward to playing again soon. But I just I just felt like and some of this stuff has been competitive, and as you know, my my head can can get in a blender when it comes to competitive golf, but

I was just reflecting on, like, man, how cool is this? Because of this little club. We got 75 members in Northeast Ohio, but because of those, and I'm now knowing a lot of those people, but because of that club, I've been introduced to these other people. I've been introduced

The Professor (03:54)
Mm, mm-hmm.

Matt Considine (03:55)
to some some just just the game of golf, man. I just had to give it like some love here at the the beginning because I had just one of the cooler weeks in my Northeast Ohio golf life, and it was all thanks to these people that I was introduced to.

The Professor (04:08)
Yeah, I mean that's very fitting with today's guest. You know, Jim has become one of the dearest friends in my life. and that is all because of golf, of by a chance meeting at Sweeton's Cove. We both went to the same event there and just happened to, you know, connect right at the beginning of it. and it's thanks to that that we have the friendship that we do and that I'm you know familiar with his work, his books, his life, and yeah, shout out golf.

Matt Considine (04:31)
If you don't know who Jim Hartzell is, you're probably not a longtime listener of this program because this is Jim's third appearance on the show. and and we have a lot of new listeners. So I'm excited to introduce Jim to like a whole new crop of people that may not be familiar with him yet because he's an architect by trade and profession. he's known to our our loyal listeners and people that have been a part of New Club, been a part of the podcast for a long time as a a golfer.

first and foremost, and a golf writer at at this point. You know, he he sat down with us when we when he released his first book, The Secret Home of Golf on Sweeten's Cove, his second book, When Revelation Comes, and now it's his third book, A Round of Scottish courses, which is out now. So it it it's I I'm excited. I haven't dove into the book just yet. you know, it brings together the Scottish courses that have stayed with the guy for over three decades of of making these incredible trips over there.

really an enchanted golf life is is what Jim has led. But but it's kind of that deeper story is what you know I'm I'm I'm told. And I'm excited to hear about the the people a little bit, his process for for putting all these memories and stories down and and you know, all those rituals and small acts that make Scottish golf special and and what it is. So ri really fun one to have Jim back on today.

The Professor (05:49)
Third visit or third time, you know, guest. That puts him up there with the top of the list, right? We got what Dr. Daris, Nico, and then Sean Martin, I believe, is always competing for that. R Rob Rob Collins is definitely

Matt Considine (05:59)
Sean Martin, Tom Coyne, Andy Johnson, Rob Collins.

The Professor (06:04)
Rob might have the what's Rob got? Three or four maybe?

Matt Considine (06:06)
Tron Carter,

Rob r yeah, I think Rob is in the lead still. I think he's

The Professor (06:11)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (06:12)
a consistent once may may maybe every other year we've had him. So I betcha he's up to four or five. But

The Professor (06:17)
You hear that, Sean?

You hear that, Sean Martin? It's about time for you to come back on.

Matt Considine (06:21)
Kyle Porter also wants to make a bid. He he said he'd like to make a bid for that family. Maybe we will. We'll have like a five five episode jacket club. We can we can talk to the production crew on investing and something like that. what do you got for us, teach? Teach us, get us going.

The Professor (06:34)
Well, you know,

y you've been you've been peppering me with your golf adventures lately, your tournament adventures, and I was feeling very empathetic today. That I was proud to hear what, seventeen greens in the last tournament? Like you bec

Matt Considine (06:45)
Boy, you gotta go here. No one wants to

hear my my d tragic r recounts of midium qualifications. But yeah, I I

The Professor (06:54)
I mean you you

Matt Considine (06:54)
hit 17 greens in my midium qualifier.

The Professor (06:57)
I mean you call it tragic. I look at it as like if you're hitting seventeen greens, you become a very, very, very dangerous golfer. your ceiling all of a sudden like gets raised up about three floors if if that's the case.

Matt Considine (07:09)
Yeah, okay. I that that is the flip side of it, but I'm I'm mostly been focused on making only one real birdie putt out of the seventeen chances I saw.

The Professor (07:20)
Yeah.

And so it's one of those if you get cleaned up you'll be playing at a level you've never you've never played at again.

Matt Considine (07:24)
I've never been to. I

I th I really do feel that way with my game, yeah.

The Professor (07:27)
Yeah.

So that's the best place to be, right? When you get you've you've accomplished something new, some skill set you've developed that you've never had before. And now it's like, all right, well, if I just go clean up that the other aspect that's holding me back, I will be able to play at a level. If I can even get it back to where I was average at it, I'll play at a level I've never played at before. So I pulled a little putting fact of the day, just

Matt Considine (07:50)
Ooh, here we go.

The Professor (07:51)
to to help you out. So this one goes back to

The eye tracking research on putting, have you deep dove this? I think we maybe loosely mentioned this in conversation before, maybe not.

Matt Considine (08:02)
We had a guest that mentioned this and I meant to I made a mental note, but I've never dove into it.

The Professor (08:08)
Yeah, it was did Chris mention it, Mr. Wilson maybe mentioned it. Yeah,

Matt Considine (08:10)
I think Chris Wilson did, yep.

The Professor (08:12)
so it's all about gaze duration in putting. You know, basically think of it as quiet eyes is a key. And this was, I believe, the kinesiologist that discovered this was Joan Victor. Vic Vickers is who first pioneered this research. This was looking at the nineties. this has been backed then by several researchers looking at training people, golfers in putting. But

The moral the story is quiet eyes means good putting. And so what she found is you need at least a couple seconds, seconds of fixation on the back of the ball to really dial in your putting. So if you think about what you're doing, if your eyes are darting all over the place, you're looking at the hole, looking down at the ball, looking at the hole, looking down the ball, your eyes are kind of scattered, moving around, and you fire, not a good way. Not a good way to putt. You want a quiet eye. So

Move your eyes real nice and slow, you know, focus on the back of the cup. Let them focus on the back of the cup for a few seconds, two to three seconds. Boom back slow to the back of the ball. And when you get them on the back of the ball, they need to pause there for at least a couple seconds before the stroke starts. So maybe one to two seconds. And then they need to stay fixated on that spot. It doesn't have to be the back of the ball, any part of the ball, but keep them fixated.

Matt Considine (09:27)
Yeah, I was gonna ask you,

d did w is there some research though that that suggests back of the ball?

The Professor (09:32)
No there's nothing there that I'm unfamiliar with in terms of actually the location on the ball matters that much, but they just need to stay fixed there and all the way through the stroke. So the eyes should not be moving around once you're down on them. Keep them fixated on the spot in the ball and keep them all the way through there, even past impact. So try to keep them even fixated at a half second past impact, you know, not tracking the ball, but exactly where the ball was. Keep them there and then move forward. So

If you're out there working on your putting, go with quiet eyes. Just use that as your mantra and try to keep your eyes moving slowly and then keeping them fixated on a spot on your ball for at least several seconds when you're putting.

Matt Considine (10:10)
That's

yeah, there there hasn't been where my putting has been this year, there's few thoughts that haven't rolled through my brain. So I have actually thought about this. But I will say, just you know, awareness of my my my I have jumpy eyes. Like they they move around when I'm putting and I I've felt like that can't be good. So nice to hear there's research.

The Professor (10:32)
It's it's

yeah, and it's all it's all information management is what it is. So as your eyes are darting, your brain's taking on more and more information, then that's getting transferred to your muscles as you're trying to execute physical movement. Right. So if your eyes are darting and that means you're trying to hit something, your muscles are sort of trying to hit a moving target. Versus if you're fixated, that helps your stroke and your muscles try to hit, you know, fixed target. and better and this this actually you can

Matt Considine (10:55)
Quiet eyes. Quiet eyes.

The Professor (10:58)
extend this to

Strikes with irons, driver, the whole deal too. Quiet eyes is the best way to play.

Matt Considine (11:05)
Yeah. Yeah, that that's the the the funny part and when I think about that is I I do have it with the full swing and even even chipping. Okay. Well, enough about about me. but that's a good one. I hope somebody else gets some better. I'm I'm trying that next, Professor. You know, just keep going down the list. We'll figure it out. I'd love let's get someone to talk gaze duration on this show for for the fall season ahead.

The Professor (11:26)
If I would love

yeah, I would love to get someone like that.

Matt Considine (11:29)
Let's do it. All right, shall we? Should we get well first? I how did I hit 17 grains in my midham qualifier? Distance control, dispersion control, and descent angle. Professor, I'm in the T one hundreds from our friends at Titleist. I found the optimal balance of those three Ds in my game and

certainly consistency. You know, I I I didn't hit every fairway, but what I love about my T 100s is coming out of the rough. I see kind of that same distance control dispersion descent angle. It it really is a benefit if you're in the fairway or or out of the rough, but you gotta have confidence. And I got a ton of confidence in my T series irons from our friends at Title List. You should, and you can too, go over to Titleist.com.

And get a fitting today. Their fitting specialists are all around the country. they're doing a good job. If you're not a member at a club, this one thing I love in their their initiatives at Title List. they're making opportunities directly on their site to go get fit. You know, that was always a a blocker in the game of golf here in the U.S. But Title List has many, many opportunities across the country to to get fit in the proper way with a Titleist certified fitter. So go over to Title List.com, get fit for your T Series Irons and

Start hitting more greens. Professor, let's get on to the show.

The Professor (12:50)
Do it.

Matt Considine (12:54)
Jim Hartzell, welcome back to the bag drop.

Jim Hartsell (12:59)
Well, to be mentioned in the same club as Rob Collins and Tron Carter, I I'm not sure. I guess I finally made it after all these years as as a s as a struggling

Matt Considine (13:10)
Ha ha ha.

Jim Hartsell (13:11)
writer, but it is a pleasure to be back. That it's been a while. That last book was three years ago or more a little bit more than around three years ago when it came out. And then the new one now. But I look it's you guys have been doing great on this pod and I've been looking forward to this for a few weeks while we've been trying to get it scheduled.

Matt Considine (13:29)
Well, we we we we've seen you on other shows. I I'd like to pretend that we're the first, you know, and I got a little nervous that you've overkicked our coverage. You're now on to bigger and better, you know, Jim's third book. We we can't even get booked on on the backdrop anymore. But your your people were very kind to make time for the professor and I.

Jim Hartsell (13:48)
Yeah, you know, it's nice to have good assistance in in in

Matt Considine (13:52)
my my first question, Jim, is actually related to kind of the trio of of books. You know, when you put these three together now, do you see kind of one long thread or one long argument running through each of all of them together or have they been distinctively different for you?

Jim Hartsell (14:12)
they've been different but there is a there is a common thread. I mean, that's a good question. you know, they really kinda all developed in different ways and why r how I decided to write them or w you know, for whatever reason I started when I did. But it's really d I think it's it's something that's maybe a little bit of a cliche to people, but it's really the journey

Just something is just as important as the destination of of getting there. And I think if there's one common theme that runs through all three of those books, I think you'll find that. just, you know, what you who you meet along the way, the things that happen while you're trying to get somewhere, is just as important as the as and I say it I I've I think I've written this in t probably two of the books, but you know, the anticipation of something is is

is almost half the fun of doing it. And so if there is a common thread, I think that might be it, yeah.

Matt Considine (15:09)
Yeah, I I I I had that in in my assessment too, Jim. It's almost like, you know, the the focus on courses just gets us into the room. You know, you think about the the the card room maybe or the the little hangout at at the club, and it's the people in that room that changes in your books and that's kind of carrying the story, right? Like w when did you realize that that was what you were doing?

Jim Hartsell (15:37)
fairly early on because I I always tell people that golf is I as much as I love golf and I love these courses dearly, obviously, the way I've written about but you know, it is sort of a vehicle for the writing, it's a vehicle for the story and it's really in my for me it's it's just as much, if not more, about the people and the places and the experiences and you know, the landscape and so yeah, I mean I I've when I first started

seriously trying to do this about ten years ago. I can look back at some of the earliest stuff that I posted on various websites and whatnot and it's got all those it's got those same same threads there. I mean it's just, you know, there's plenty of books and stuff out there about just, you know, golf courses and instruction and all that kind of stuff. Mine are a little bit different. And so I I can look back from the beginning and it's always it's always been like that.

The Professor (16:32)
Jim, I want to spend some time rewinding back to the beginning. you know, you bring up you s started on this journey ten years ago. What motivated you to the move down this avenue of becoming a writer and trying to write stories around, you know, obviously a couple in Scotland, one on Sweeton's Cove. You know, what was that inspiration?

Jim Hartsell (16:51)
Well, it's something I always wanted to do. It goes all the way back to childhood. I mean I always thought I was gonna be a writer. I mean I I when I was in high school I've I've mentioned this a couple of times over the years, but I had a I had a high school English teacher, God bless her soul, who was just a genius and she encouraged me. I wrote some essays. We had we had I had her for a whole year and all we did was write essays. We didn't we didn't

She d she did I mean grammar of cour I mean you're a math professor, Kevin, I know, but you think about it this way. I bet you get some papers that you grade that that you're impressed by the process as much as the outcome of does that make sense?

The Professor (17:33)
yeah.

Jim Hartsell (17:34)
so you know to me, she just encouraged me and I remember we wrote about

We'd read a couple of novels, Dickens and just the typical stuff, Evelyn Wall and whatnot. But she was big into English literature and I just remember at the end of the year she said, You're a really good writer and I was what, sixteen years old then or fifteen or sixteen. And she said, You oughta think about doing this someday. So I just I don't know, I something I always wanted to do, but I went into architecture and but when I was at Mississippi State, you know, I took as many writing classes as I could.

And I had another wonderful writing professor over there who just was again was a genius and really encouraged me. And so I but then as y'all know, I mean you get you get out of college and you have to make a living and you know, I architecture is very, very difficult. I mean the interns get put through the meat grinder like a lot of professions and so I got into that and started doing it and I but I always kept notebooks and stuff and I probably got a hundred

things where I started writing something over the years and stopped or I had the idea I was gonna write a d gr a great fiction novel and I've got two or three pages of that. And so I always thought I was gonna do and then finally I thought, you know, I'm not getting any younger. You know, I love this. It's something I wanna do. I've got far enough in my career where I've got a little bit of time. You know, I still have to work, but I've got I can I don't have to work every weekend like I used to. And so I just started I thought I'd try it and I started

doing it mostly online and you know and it just it kinda grew from there. I got up some really good reactions to stuff that was posted and I thought, okay, people people there might be some people that like this and it was encouraging and I just kept going. And it's not, you know, it's a tough, tough thing to break into. I've been very lucky you know, to have met some people that like my writing and have helped me, you know, get to where I've I've had three books come out now.

The Professor (19:31)
Jim, like I think a a lot of people that might resonate with because especially in the golf road, people love to think, love to think on the topic. And it's easy to go down the blog world, like you mentioned, you write some quick, you know, 1500 words, maybe get up to 5,000 words or whatever. And they do that. But it's a whole different beast to take on a book. So I do want to go back to that first Sweet and S Cove book. What I don't think I've

Talk to you about when was the moment where you said, I'm gonna transition from, you know, just writing these thoughtful exercises on golf and your relationship with golf to like, I'm gonna put together something that's actually gonna take time, effort, organizational structure, editorial processes, because that's a huge jump. What motivates you to make that jump at that point?

Jim Hartsell (20:21)
it's a good question. I mean, I just you know how it is when you've you guys have played obviously sweetens a lot and I just you know, when you first fall f discover that place, it just sort of takes over your life for a period of time and I I just I was obsessed with it. I I could not b believe that this little place was out in the middle of nowhere and it was a kind of golf that I loved that th that I'd been missing for so much of my life, except when I was in Scotland and

I'm like, I can't believe this. So I just I I just kept I became obsessed with it and I thought and the more I knew about the story and I met Rob fairly early on. I was I was lucky that he came out and played with Jake and I I probably on the third time I was up there. and we just kinda hit it off and I I I started learning a little bit about what they went through to get this place. And you know, Kevin, at that point it was still it wasn't a e it wasn't a a d a given fact that the place was gonna survive. I mean it was

The Professor (21:13)
Right.

Jim Hartsell (21:14)
I mean it was just

The Professor (21:15)
It was not gonna survive. It was like what what days are they gonna close?

Jim Hartsell (21:15)
hanging No, it was not going to. No, it was

not going to. And you'd go out there and you'd play all Jake and I would play all day and see nobody else but Patrick or Rob might show up or we might see one or two other people. you know, and it just I'm like, I can't this is just ridiculous. And so I just as I got some some of these stories that were were and I I th around that time I got I started thinking about

How can I tell this story? You know, it's so interesting. And I still hadn't thought about writing a book and I I I'm I believe I've got the time light right on this. I had a some interest from Golfers Journal. I sent us, you know, I'd been sending out story at that point I had been sending out stories for a while. And for the most

The Professor (21:58)
Mm-hmm. That's right.

Jim Hartsell (21:59)
part for the most part, they just people didn't even respond. and you know, you'd send to whatever publication and you might one out of five get a n a little email back, thank you, we're not interested. And so

I sent one one night to somebody at Golfers Journal and they the guy responded a the next day, said this is great, we might consider doing this. Now, if you've ever written for Golfers Journal, the time from the time you start a story till it gets in published can be two years almost. But you know but that encouraged me and I just I had I was sitting at work one day, just a day like this, and I just thought, you know, I can do this. I'm gonna I've never written a book but I I

I I can I there's a way to tell this story that people will find interesting. And I called Rob. That was the first thing I did. I called him. It's probably ten or eleven o'clock in the morning. I said, Hey, I've got a crazy idea and you know him. He said, Well hit me. He said I love crazy ideas. And

The Professor (22:54)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Hartsell (22:55)
I said, I want to write a book about sweetens and he said, Let's do it. And it was probably about a week or two later. I mean I jumped right into it. I drove up to Chattanooga and spent a almost a

Well, it was at least four or five hours sitting in the the tavern there and close to his house and we'd we'd talked through the the whole thing and then I came back and did it two or three more times and so I I did after I'd done that, I said, Okay, this is then then I started working on a outline and it took me a while to write that book. It took that it was probably two years 'cause I had to I interviewed I don't and I

The Professor (23:29)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Hartsell (23:31)
d look and I never I had never written one before and I interviewed

I bet I interviewed fifty people for that book and you know, and but I just methodically kept doing it and I I would get start writing, I'd get it I'd I had my outline, I'd write a chapter and I didn't I I I guess I kinda I don't usually well, I it's not fair to say. I did I that one did sort of develop chronologically a after I had the outline. But I would jump ahead and write a chapter that I or some stuff that I thought might be interesting later on and

Anyway, it just all kinda came together and I just I was lucky. I was playing out at Sweeton's and I met a guy you both know, Jim Sitar, who's started Back Nine Press. And Jim and I were talking and he said, you know, I'm I'm a I'm in publishing. He hadn't started Back Nine at that point.

The Professor (24:21)
Right.

Jim Hartsell (24:22)
he was working for a publisher in Chicago and I of course I said, Well, I'm right working on a book and I thought, man, he pray hears that all the time and

He didn't say a whole lot about it, but we had a great time playing and then about three or four months later he I heard from him randomly and he said, you know, w send me a little bit of that book you're working on and he said, I'm thinking about starting this a a a golf publishing company and I sent it to him, he loved it and we you know, we went we started you know, th that's how it started. I th that was the first book the Back Nine Press published and so that's kind of a long answer, but it just I just

thought, you know, this is something I know I can write about and I know I can tell the story in an interesting way. And that's kinda how it it went. But it was a it was h I would say that might in some ways that was probably the the hardest of the three books to write just because of the number of people I I had to talk to to to get the story. Yeah.

Matt Considine (25:19)
You know, yeah, it's funny that this is the the backdrop slash new club universe speaking to me. But Jim Mr. Sitar, Jim Sitar, he he had a bit a lot to do with his podcast even taking a leap into the creation world where it was you know very amateur ish, just curiosity. But Jim kinda helped us part time for a little bit of understanding that whether it's a book you're writing or

a a podcast you're producing and interviews or a painting, you you really have to, you know, have some discipline and intention in what you're doing before you explore. And it lets you be more creative and it lets you be and and that was he he's Jim's a very quiet, humble dude. I I I love giving him the shout out just 'cause he's he's helped so many people in the game of golf explore their depth for the game of golf, which is really cool.

Jim Hartsell (26:08)
Listen, me

me too. I mean, I honestly I I'm such a fan of what he's done with Backnine Press. Obviously this is my third book, but you know, to champion good literary golf writing and

And and to make it accessible to people. I mean it's just I I can't I I can't give him enough credit for it to be honest with you. And you know, we've become friends and you know, we've worked through three books together now and you know, it's just what he's done and he's got such a wide variety of books now and he's it's just continuing to grow and so yeah, I just I yeah.

Matt Considine (26:40)
Yeah. And and getting getting to my question from that, because

you I it it does feel so fitting that you started with Sweeten's Cove, which was this best kept secret for so long. And the secret home of golf is just such a perfect title for for the the amazing story of that place. but I imagine there's some inspiration, you know, beyond just your pursuit of of being a

a golf writer and and that craft. there had to be books, Jim, from your 30 plus years going over to Scotland that you picked up, whether it was before making the trips over there or or after, that you just said, man, I because I think many of us can relate to this. It's whether you're really excited and it's the anticipation of a golf trip overseas and you want to know more about where you're going, or it's

Man, I've just fell in love with this place and I know very little about it, even though I've been there. we start to kind of seek out resources for that. And and the little unsung places like a Sweeten's Cove or Lyca Dun you always pronounce it better than I want to say it. So I I was gonna say d Dunverdi, but Dunaverty, thank you.

Jim Hartsell (27:50)
Dn den denaverty. Yeah.

Matt Considine (27:54)
Dunaverty. it gives people that resource. So what I I

I'm I'm really curious. What was like some some early books that you came across and writers about places that you had seen?

Jim Hartsell (28:04)
Yeah. there's a few I'll try to get but I I remember I was a very I mean I've I've been a reader since I my dad really pushed reading and I I've been reading books since I could was old enough to go to the library and but I s I read I remember in high school I read Following Through by Herbert Warren Wind.

which is a collection of all his great stories and there was one in there called North of the Links of Dornock. That's a famous story I'm sure y'all read. And it really hit me and it that was one of the first books I ha I had a few books then, but that was one of the first ones I remember.

hitting me like that and then I read Golf in the Kingdom my freshman year in in college and you know s you mentioned earlier, Kevin that you had math and psychology books behind you. Well that that that combines math and psychology into into one into one book and with golf. So

The Professor (28:56)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Hartsell (28:56)
it just, you know, that one kind of affected me. and then, you know, the then I really got to the one that probably made the biggest impact on me was Golf in the Kingdom by Michael Bamberger and

I got that when when it came out. I was at a it was at a time when I was buying every I would go to I worked in Huntsville, Alabama. I tell's I mentioned I we they worked us to death and your one break all day was your lunch hour and th there was a book there was a bookstore about five minutes from the office and I'd go there a couple of times a week and I'd buy every new golf book that came out. Well I got that one and I already had a love for Scottish golf and it already been

studying it. But that the that the way that he wrote that story really affected me. I I've told this story a bunch, but I wound up calling Michael at the Philadelphia Inquiry. He must have been he couldn't have been twenty nine, thirty years old then. Told talked to me about planning a trip over

And then I you know, that first trip I found a couple of books that really added to that, that really piled on top of that momentum of just is and one was called Hell's Golfer by a guy named Tom Morton, and I he's a a Scottish writer, and it really kind of he it's a fictional story, but it's the way he tells it is is great. And he goes around to all these sort of unknown golf courses like Denaverty and Askronish even and places I'd never heard of and

And you know, that I picked that one up on the first trip and there's a s and I picked up another book by a Scottish writer, can named Angus McVicar, who was from Dinaverty. And it was in both of these I bought in an old bookstore in Sa St Andrews, which is gone now, unfortunately. But so that those kind of all together th and th all those writing styles really affected me and they're they're all a little bit different, but

Yeah, I mean those I would say that I've I mean I've got I've got I don't even know how many books in here, but those books are right here above my on the shelf right above my computer and I those are the ones when I'm a lot of times when I'm sitting here writing on the weekend, if I just feel like stopping for a minute, I'll reach up and grab one of those and read a little bit. Just just open it up to any any page. So that's a good question. But I'd I'd say those four or five are the ones that just really and there's so many more over the years that have added to it, but that in the beginning of me thinking about

maybe doing this at some point or how it affected the my travel plans or what I what I was thinking about in Scotland.

The Professor (31:18)
Jim

Great that you addressed some of your inspirations. That was a question I was gonna ask. moving forward now, you finished that first book on Sweeten's Cove. Did you have the seed in mind for a second book? Not necessarily that it was going to become obviously when Revelation comes because of the bat context there, but when you finish it, it was like, all right, I'm ready to publish a second book, or was it I need to exhale a little bit and and figure out something to write on?

Jim Hartsell (31:44)
Well,

I had already thought before I finished s The Secret Home of Golf, I'd already thought I'm gonna write a book about Scotland. I didn't really know I if this you know, I remember thinking if this one does okay then I'm o I'm gonna write a book about Scotland. And so I had that just as a general concept. I didn't know what I was gonna do and then b right as I was finishing,

The Secret Home of Golf, you know, Jordan died. I mean, y'all know the story. We've talked about it. And I just thought, all right, this is it. I I can't even finish this book. I mean I had we were I probably had a chapter to go and remember talking to Jim and we wound up I got through it, finished it, and then I took a trip over to Scotland that became the the basis of that book and but I really still hadn't I honestly had not thought about

that riding it the way that it was or anything. I just I just I just tried to get through that trip and I I've I've talked about this a lot but

I've always on these trips I've always taken notebooks with me and I write down every night everything that happens. anything any important conversation or interesting conversation I've had with somebody, I'll write it down. any particular two or three holes that jumped out at me or some shot that jumped out at me, I'll I'll write it down. I'll even draw little diagrams of the holes and stuff. And I've always done that. And so I'd done that for this trip and I remember I got back

And I was sitting in my office one one night and I I got the notebook out and I started flipping through it and it was almost like it almost reads like a book. And so I that's when I maybe started thinking about it a little bit, but then a golfers journal asked me to write a story about what happened. And I wrote it in a just almost stream of consciousness one day. It I mean it was it's about eight or nine thousand words, and I literally wrote it in a day. And

it got such a huge reaction and I r and I went back and looked at it and I thought, you know, this could be expanded into a book. I think people this could help people insert with a lot of things and so that's kinda how that one developed. And I just I just took that that story really sort of became the outline for the book. and then I just worked on it. but you know, I worked on that one for probably six or seven or eight months and and then we had to you know, the it when you get to the end of the writing there's still a good bit of time on the layout and the

all the stuff that goes into the publishing part of it. But that's how that developed. I mean I knew I was gonna write a sco a book about Scotland, but I had no idea it it sort of became that because of the circumstances, you know, that that that happened.

The Professor (34:17)
Yeah, Jim, that book When Revelation Comes still to me is one of the most meaningful books I've read. It I was I read that book on a flight with my dad to Scotland in twenty twenty four. and read straight through with that entire flight, had to put it down several times. not to downplay your other two books, but anybody out there that is looking for a book on golf in life to read, I put it in the the essential category of must reads.

Jim Hartsell (34:42)
Well thank you. I mean I still hear from people about that one a lot and I mean to this day I hear I get emails from people who've just found it and or they've come to it through the that wonderful film that No Laying Up did that's on YouTube that really that really capt

The Professor (34:57)
Beautiful.

Jim Hartsell (34:58)
captured the essence of the book. I mean it's not really about the book but it's about the everything around it and so yeah, still thank you. I I mean that one means a lot to me and but yeah that

You know, after I finished that I kinda you know, you kinda take some time off. You know how it is when you finish a big project, you just kinda rest for a while. But so it was it's it was a few months before I started thinking about this one, the new one.

The Professor (35:25)
Yeah, y y you read my mind. I imagine you you so you say it took a few months, then you start thinking about this. I imagine this one, reading between the lines now that I've read the book, this idea has been in in your mind for a while to do something like this.

Jim Hartsell (35:41)
Hundred percent. This concept has been there for a while because there's a book that a wonderful writer called Patrick Dickinson, who was a just a brilliant poet who's a who's a friend of Bernard Darwin's put out in the fifties. It's called A Round A Round of Golf Courses and it's one of my favorite books. And and it was one of the first books he he he picked his favorite eighteen golf courses in the UK, but the way that he wrote about them was very

literary and philosophical, poetic way that I that I love and I've always loved that book and I I mean I really that's a good point. I've I've always had in the back of my mind, you know, I'd love to do one of my favorite eighteen like that and trying to follow that same kind of literary format that he did. And so yeah that one's it's been in there for a while, but it do you know it took a it took a while to write this one. It you know I've I've I've

I've been to all these places multiple times that are the that made the book the final eighteen. but the last few years I spent a lot of time a lot of the interim chap the interlude chapters, which I love, you know, required visits to certain places and so th there's a lot of trips involved in it and and I and of course some of it goes back over thirty years. but yeah, it just I I had had that concept in my head and I was really happy how it came together and

people that have read it seem to love the format of it and kinda how it flows and you know it's har it's a little bit different than well it's a l lot different than when Revelation comes, which has a

sort of a f theme that runs through the entire thing and this one is a little bit different but I I still think it really it really kind of f holds together as a as a book, just because of the way that I've I've we've arranged it and the way that the the themes that are in it. So yeah, but that yeah, good question. It that that's that book inspired me and that guy's if you ever I would I'm pee if people like my book, I would you can find that

A round of golf courses by Dickinson. I'm sure you can find it on A books for nothing, probably, but Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Considine (37:45)
Yeah, you know, it's it's it is out there and

I've stumbled on it a number of times and even just excerpts from it in other books, doing research on some of the courses that we've talked to on this this show and it's it's an amazing text. And I was thinking about that in terms of, you know, we we all get done with a trip.

And we're with the buddies that we did it with or the family we did it with, or or we're coming home talking to others that have done their own trip and we're, you know, what are the best courses? And then I always find myself go, I don't know if it's the best, but this one's my favorite, just from the, you know, the and so I thought about that with your book, Jim, is that you know, when Dickinson laid out the the 18 best, that kind of puts things in a different framework. But yours are the the 18 favorite of of Jim Hartzell. And I'm I'm just curious.

How did, you know, with part Dickinson's book as the inspiration for it, but then what what did that that framing of w it these being your favorites, what did that shift and what what did it free you up to do when it came to actually creating the book?

Jim Hartsell (38:53)
Yeah, I mean I I always you know, you have this endless debate on Twitter and Instagram and everything about best courses and favorite courses. I mean

I've I've you guys have read the stuff I write. I mean I I don't make much of a distinction between those two. you know, my favorites are these eighteen courses and I they're and that and honestly it was hard to narrow that down. It it's the list started out at about a hundred and went down from there.

The Professor (39:20)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Hartsell (39:21)
and then you know, any one of those courses on that hundred I'd be and you and I and all three of us would be happy to play every day for the rest of our life. So it's it was a almost a

it was it was very difficult. I well I say it was difficult. The f the first fifteen were pretty easy. The last three were a struggle. I mean I had a list by my my desk and I wrote I even wrote chapters for some other places and but it just I never really you know, I some I don't I try to stay out of these debates that you can't these endless debates as you get into what's the best course and you know, the way if somebody look if somebody tries to put me on the spot about that

I guess I look at it as okay, or you're asking what is the best course to hold the open championship or the best course to hold the US Open. I'll give you my opinion on that. I think it's Muirfield or Carnoostie or St Andrews or Marion or or or you know, or Oakmont. but that is something to me to say something is the best based on what professional golfers do or what

That's a bunch of BS as as far as I'm concerned. I mean,

The Professor (40:29)
Yeah, isn't it?

Jim Hartsell (40:30)
you know, I I would say that Denaverty's the best course in the world. And I and I've challenged me on it. Come after me. I mean, it's it it's it's also my favorite. but you look at some I mean, I've got in the last two weeks alone, the number of messages I've gotten from people who've gone to Denaverty because of something I've written and then have have sent me these long emails about I can't believe how good this was that I

I hit every kind of I used every club in my bag. It it and the course is forty eight hundred yards long and it's a par sixty six. So I'm the wrong person to debate about

The Professor (41:04)
Yeah.

Jim Hartsell (41:05)
about this issue because I I I just yes, Matt Matt, it those are my eighteen favorite courses, but as far as I'm concerned they're also the eighteen best courses. And you know, I think I just don't think you can I just look at golf as I don't look as g as g as at golf

as much as I love watching the open and watching the Ryder Cup and watching the Masters and so forth, that's not golf. I mean that's that's that is a part of golf, but it's not y you know what I mean? It's it's it's a fun part of golf. I mean Kev we'll you know, we all watch this stuff and love watching it. I mean it's fun to watch competitions. But I think it's more important to have a good time and and hit a lot of good shots and have fun and I think everybody's got their list and

You know, I just I've just have always said favorite and bet these are my eighteen favorite, but I they're as far as I'm concerned, they're the eighteen best. And I know people will say Jim's a lunatic. He thinks Iona is one of the eighteen best courses in the world. But it is for me, and you know, if you ever get make it out there, I challenge you to and see see what Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Considine (42:07)
It's a really illustrative answer, Jim, honestly, because

it it it goes deeper into how you look at the game of golf. And I I think so many people haven't got there yet in their journey. and I think your books actually helped them get there. It's helped me. And and the way you look at it is is not just like you said.

ability to host an open or the architectural merits on its own, even though you do comment on that w be beautifully. I think it's the overall lived experience. And and that includes the the history of a place, the the buildings in the clubhouse, the soup, you know, you

Jim Hartsell (42:43)
yeah.

Matt Considine (42:44)
you write about soup better than anybody I've

The Professor (42:46)
Ha ha

Jim Hartsell (42:46)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (42:46)
ever met and and the people. and and and that's really the through line. And I think, you know, r r rather than than just this

We we we try to make things that are so subjective, objective with, you know, rating systems and whatnot. I mean, y your answer's great there just 'cause it talks about what golf is to you. And it it's really a combination of so many, so many things that all add up to a lived experience.

Jim Hartsell (43:11)
Yeah, and people look, I I people like different things and there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, you know, somebody might look at my list and say that's ridiculous. I'm I mean, why would I go over to Scotland and play those places and but you know, I not to get you can you can go on a trip over there and beat yourself into the ground

play in every championship course thirty six a day and by the time you get home it's all a blur and you're worn out. you know, try one of these these p these smaller places and the people that and you know, the where it's very casual and the people that you meet and yes, the soup and the sandwich is is important and so I all that stuff and the history, I mean e in this eight these eighteen places I I mean, I've got the history

I work in some

The Professor (43:58)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Hartsell (43:58)
kind of history element in almost every chapter and I love that part of I love history in general, not just golf history, but I think, you know, Kevin knows and I get a bit philosoph philosophical about stuff, but you know, it's important to understand history and why why people did the things they did and you know, try to learn from it and you know, so

I just I've got a chapter in there about the lost golf courses of Aaron, which I loved writing and I love doing and it was just pure fun and it it was about these you know, at one time this island had twelve golf courses and now they've got seven, which is still a lot. and Kevin I think you're going there in a few weeks and I can't can't wait for that. But

The Professor (44:37)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Hartsell (44:37)
but just a tiny island in Scotland in nineteen twenty having twelve functioning c golf courses that had actual clubs and had competitions.

a place that that had to be one golf course for every, you know, thirty fifty people. I don't something ridiculous and so, I don't know, I love I love studying history and I'm not a you know, I work history into all of my my writing. even even The Secret Home of Golf has got some some stuff about the history of the area and the Sequatchie Valley and stuff and I love that. yeah my books are not straight they're not history books, but I do I do work all that in so

I just think that's the it's the it's the entire experience for me and it's what creates these memories. I mean I had somebody text me this morning, had just listened to this other podcast I was on or DM me and they said, How do you remember all this stuff? And I just it's because of the experiences that you've had. I mean, th that's how you remember it. I mean it's something that things that register in your mind that you just don't forget. So Yeah. Yes.

Matt Considine (45:40)
Let me can I ask about the history, Jim? Because I

noticed that about your writing and they don't overwhelm a chapter, but they add layers to it. And it I I I've I I guess I don't know if this happens to every forty something year old, but you just start all of a sudden watching war documentaries and you start all of a sudden you know, reading listen to history podcasts and and I it is the story of people at the end of the day. But I I I do admire the way that you interject it in your

In your story, in your narrative. How do you know when you're digging? Because you I think you clearly love the historical digging part. How do you know when it like it's something that earns its place in your story versus just proving you did the homework? Cause I'm I'm kind

Jim Hartsell (46:23)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (46:23)
of like tempted, even on this show, to be like, I I learned all these new things. I have to share it. But sometimes it doesn't support the story. I always feel like yours does. How how do you determine what the difference is?

Jim Hartsell (46:34)
Well it's almost like a it's almost like a treasure hunt or a scavenger hunt. I don't know, you know, y there's a lot of places you can do research, thankfully, online. you know, I've spent hours and hours and hours in the British Newspaper Archive, which is one of the greatest websites known to man. I mean, they have basically scanned almost every newspaper going back to the eighteen fifties or in it and so but I will say even

That is that is very tedious. I mean, you'll spend a month looking for stuff and you have even when you find it you have to i it it it it's just hard to to single out and so you'll you'll you'll you'll you'll finally come across one thing that sort of supports like when I was I was trying to write about this place, Corey Cravey, on Aaron, which was a golf course that had to be one of the most stunning golf courses in the world, is gone now.

And I finally found this story one night and it was weird how I got to it. I I found it by searching for sheep sheepdog trials, which is something they did over there where they would have these contests of sheep you know, f they probably still do it. We're you know, they they were sh it was a sheepdog competition. Well that they used to hold those at Corey Cravey and it took me to this story I'd never found before. So it's almost like, okay,

This is something that I've that's been uncovered. It's like a jewel and it it's just fits. I don't know if there's a it's almost like somebody asked me one time about chipping and stuff and how c how how I could chip so good with the eight iron from si fifty yards and I said, Well, I can't really explain it. It's just how you feel. I mean it's

It's just a feeling that you have and I I don't know why it it's something that's it's hard to hard to explain. I mean you know Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Matt Considine (48:25)
Yeah, you you you found something and and it clicks. It's so whether

you're writing a story or trying to, you know, make a chip in boat, I I find I know what you're saying

Jim Hartsell (48:33)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (48:33)
there.

Jim Hartsell (48:34)
Yeah. Yeah. So it's just that's kinda how it happens. It's it's almost like a revelation moment where you find this one thing and you say, Okay, that's perfect. This will be so interesting and sometimes the stories have little funny anecdotes or funny to us now in the in two thousand twenty six where there'll be a couple of lines in there and I'll just laugh t about it and I'll say that's gotta go in because it's it people people that read this will think no get the humor in it and so

Yeah, that just that's kinda how it happens. It's just kind of a feeling that you have that it fits what you're writing and something that that adds to the story. but th but yeah, it's it's very tedious. I mean there's there's there's there's good phot photography the UK does a great job of of on history and a lot of their museums and stuff, they just really you you can find archives of things that are just incredible that they've taken the time to do and aerial I've studied aerial photography, the old aerial photos and

trying to find these places just for that one particular chapter. But I just I like the the quest of it, if you will, and you know, I imagine some of these people that write nothing but history, like my friend Stephen Proctor, they'd probably do the same it's probably the same thing on a bigger scale. You just you go through all this stuff until you find the things that seem like, okay, this is important. But yeah, I don't know if I answered that well, but it's not it's just a feeling that you have.

The Professor (49:56)
Yeah, nice Jim. You brought up pictures, and it's I think one of the things I appreciated most about your your current book was the number of historic pictures that you had in there documenting clubhouses, courses, just landscape. so I want to dive a little bit into the most recent book. I do first have a a question from the audience from a friend of the pod and a friend of your and I's gym. And the question was, what do you have against the Scottish East Coast?

Just we've got so little representation over there. He he's he is he is not

Jim Hartsell (50:24)
This this this is Josh Don

The Professor (50:26)
happy.

Jim Hartsell (50:26)
this is Josh Donaldson, right? I mean I think he's tak

The Professor (50:29)
Josh not Josh Donaldson,

no different a different Josh, maybe.

Jim Hartsell (50:34)
Josh Ralston. I d I'm sorry. I I

The Professor (50:35)
Ha ha ha.

Jim Hartsell (50:36)
I Ralston, Ross I just forgive me but Yeah. Well

Matt Considine (50:38)
So you have multiple enemies on the east coast, it seems like multiple gems.

The Professor (50:40)
Yeah.

Jim Hartsell (50:42)
no, it's I it's Josh Ralston, of course, a very erudite gentleman and somebody I dearly love and the the the the champion of North Berwick West Lynx you know, I don't I love the East Coast. I I've got Ely in my book, I've got Anstruther in there, North Bericks in my

I've got a chapter of the nineteenth hole where I've list a few other ones that just barely missed. I've got a chapter on the old course, which I again I the old course this is I y you may consider this cheating, but it I don't it's it i it exists outside of rankings as far as I'm concerned. So I you know, it's in a category of one. No, I love these yeah, I love these. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

The Professor (51:19)
Yeah, ja that's the yeah, obviously a joking question. I would

let's dive into the old course. It it is an interlude chapter. it I think it's for me it was one of the chapters that stood out the most because it was unique in and of itself. Could you take us through that story of returning to the old course after twenty years? And I do want you to start with the the gate agent that was just the most lovely individual you've ever come across.

Jim Hartsell (51:44)
Listen man, you know, you just f flew over there and I I when you told me you were go were going through Europe and stuff, I like, Okay, I hope he's I hope he's not going to Frankfurt and you know, then th those airports can get crazy, but we had we had gotten a time. Jake was going with me and I had not played the old in twenty years and the a guy with the Lynx Trust had offered to take us out late one day.

And we just had a terrible situation in Frankfurt. we really got it was just totally unfair and the lady wouldn't let us on the plane and we wound up w by some miracle we had to fly we were going to Glasgow, we had to fly to Edinburgh and all had to figure out the car rental stuff. All it somehow it all worked out and I'll you know, read it in the book, but it th this she was she was just I hope she's been fired from Luftans or at this point, but

You know, we barely we've we got there so late. we were supposed to play Anstra other, one of Jake's favorite courses. And we walked into the hotel in Anstra at nine thirty, just dead, worn out, been traveling for twenty six hours or something. And you know, we didn't we we were supposed to play the old the next day, so we did get there in time and it was it was very important because I had a tour of the R and A lined up with a nice gentleman who offered to take us through.

eat lunch in the R and A, which is, you know, I'm you've probably done, but

The Professor (53:13)
Yeah, special.

Jim Hartsell (53:14)
it's very special. I mean it's a once in a lifetime thing and so all that was on the verge of falling apart, but it all came together. we were tired, but we we got we got we've got our coat and ties and went and had spent the morning in the R and A and part of the afternoon. It was just walking around there. Good God. I mean you just I even I probably embarrassed the guy but

you walk up the stair to the dining room and that that photo of the triumvirate or the painting

The Professor (53:43)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Hartsell (53:44)
of of Vard and Taylor and Brady is right there and I just remember I may even put this in the story. I th I I just like I I inadvertently exclaimed, my God you know, when I when I saw that and I thought, I'm this guy I'm never gonna get invited back here. I'm I'm I'm showing my my myself. But it was just one thing after another and

We got to go look at some we looked at the h went through the whole building and some saw some of the archive stuff and and then we got to we were one of the last tea times. the guy that took us out was David from the Lynx Trust and we were joined by somebody from Titlist that was is apparently one of their main people. I I didn't know him, but he was a nice man and but we were it was late and they have what they call

evening times or I can't I don't know what they call Dark time, dark

The Professor (54:31)
Yeah, the dark the the dark hours. Yep.

Jim Hartsell (54:33)
hours, something like that. So we were like the f we were like that's what we what we had and so we're you're not guaranteed a finishing the round. And but it was a beautiful it was a it was a clear day which helps because you know the twilight just keeps going and but when we got it and it was just I had not been there in twenty years and Jake had never played it. I'd played it four or five times years ago and love it. but you know

But he was having such a good time and you'll love this, Kevin. He had a he had a persimmon driver in his bag and he he played that and I just love that. I just remember thinking, you know, if I've done nothing else, I've raised a son that values the experience of this more so than anything else. I mean, hitting a a an old McGregor driver off the you know, at the old course and but he wa when he was playing good and we were all hitting good shots and you know how the old is, you kinda

you almost float around it in a sort of constant stream mo movement. It's just it's hard to describe. It's almost like being on a boat or something and but we got around to the fourteenth and it was really starting to get dark and we were having such a good time and we'd all made a birdie or two and I'm like, we're not gonna finish and I the guy we were with, David, he quit playing, he was very he said, I look I want you guys to finish and

I didn't know that there was I I now I see one of the reasons why other than that he y he really wanted us to finish, but you know, they had we we got to the eighteenth and it was completely dark, but you could kinda see the you know how the lights are around there coming from the buildings. And it kinda cast a little glow on the fairway. So we got we played the whole I mean I hooked one way over by the first T and which is fine. I mean you you can do that all day. You got a good shot from over there. and

We got up there in the dark and they kept saying, you know I I I remember I had about I had a short putt, about two or three feet and I was tired and I'm like I I said, just throw ki throw that back to me. And they're like, No, no, you wanna put out, this is the old course. Even the guy from Tidalist was saying it. And

The Professor (56:42)
Yeah.

Jim Hartsell (56:43)
I'm like, Why are they wanting me to put out? This is so weird. I like I I don't underst you know, I've played this is my f I you know, I've played a thousand rounds over here.

The Professor (56:49)
You've you've you've probably picked up

ten balls at that point on the day. Yeah. Yeah, we're f we're flying around. We've got we're trying to finish out.

Jim Hartsell (56:52)
yeah, yeah. I mean you know how it is. I I don't put a one foot pu yeah, and so yeah, yeah, yeah,

yeah. And so I did and then I still didn't really understand. They had they had come out I had s when I was over by the first T, it's it I don't even have this in the book, I don't think. I when I was looking at my ball, this guy comes walking by me, goes, Hey Mr Hartzel, how are you? And I'm and it was one of the green staff and he had something in his hand. I'm like, What is this guy? Why is he talking how does he know who I am?

He he walks over there while I'm fooling around and he they had made a flag of this drawing Jordan had done when he was nine years old, which I've got here in my office. just a little drawing on notebook paper that he left on my computer, my laptop one day while I was at work. And it was of it was it was the old course emblem and and it's and I'll get a little bit emotional here, but it said, I love you, Dad, at the bottom.

And he was nine years old anyway, I s David had I guess Tron had sent him because Tron had seen that drawing before. I I I may have posted it somewhere. And Tron must have sent it to him. They got a flag made, which I've got framed here now, of that drawing and they had it on the eighteenth green at the old course. And I still I didn't really realize it

when I was taking the flag. They wanted me to take the flag out and but I didn't still didn't really reali until we went and sat down and started sailing up with the caddies. And I just I saw what it was and I just really broke down and you know, David had already walked off to the car park. I mean, you y y'all been there, you have to sort of park down by the new clubhouse down there

The Professor (58:29)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Hartsell (58:29)
and walk up. And I told Jake, I said, We have got to catch him before he leaves. I cannot believe they've done this. And we basically sprinted,

And it's not a it's a long way. And we we got there. He was he was closing the boot of his car and I went up to him and I said, David, I can't believe you guys did this for me and he just he just hugged me and he said he said, You know, Jim, and I I won't get I've got this in the book, but he I he said, you know, it just really hit me that what we do how much what we do here means to people around the world. He said, When I saw that a nine year old kid in Alabama had drawn a drawing of the old course

He said it just really it just really meant something to me and that that you know that what I do is how it affects people and how how important it is. So it just I get a little emotional talking about it, but we really had a moment there and the and it was completely dark in the in the in the car park and you know, he said, You come back here any time you want. He said, you're welcome and so it's one of the nicest things. People have done some nice things for me over there. I mean

I got made a life member of Arab Foil recently, which was a gr wonderful honor. But you know, to have that flag put on the eighteenth gr the eighteenth run at the old course. Now this is not

The Professor (59:44)
But

Jim Hartsell (59:45)
it's

Matt Considine (59:44)
Yeah.

Jim Hartsell (59:45)
just cra it's crazy. I mean I d and that you know, this even we started out this conversation about this journey that I've been on, but to to to have something like that happen, it's hard to even understand. so yeah, it's I p the the whole day, I mean the old and you can you can tell Mr.

Professor Ralston that you know, I love the East Coast and you know, but you just can't you have t you guys love the new c I think y'all are members of the new of the a the actual new club in Scotland, which is wonderful and so you know how much how great the old is and that's why I just I just put it out by itself. I don't people say you should that should have been one of your eighteen. No, it shouldn't be one of my eighteen because it's not really

It's it's b on its own. I mean I I it it's it's it's

The Professor (1:00:32)
Mm.

Jim Hartsell (1:00:32)
it's it's in its own realm, so

The Professor (1:00:35)
That's that's right, Jim. And that's what made that chapter, I think, the interludes stand out so much to me, because I think it embodies something we discussed earlier. Or like you alluded to there, the old course did that. They don't need to do anything like that. Right? Like

Jim Hartsell (1:00:48)
No, no.

The Professor (1:00:49)
they're they're they could be the pebble beach of the rural whatever, just be a factory, run people through. But as you mentioned earlier, the fabric of the game are the people that you meet, the relationships you develop, and the experiences you have with those people.

And I think that chapter is very symbolic and that it clearly illustrates you do have a place that stand on stands on its own. They don't need to do anything to cater the guests at all. They could just, hey, pay us your green fee, go play. Pay us green. But no, they took the time to do something that special for you and your family. Just I think pulls that to the surface of that fabric that is woven through the Scottish game.

Jim Hartsell (1:01:26)
Yeah, I still can't believe it really. I mean I've got the thing framed here and Jake and I talk about it a lot and yeah, just it's in in in the in the in the g most famous place in Goth like you say, they don't have to do anything. I mean, they could charge a million dollars around or if they wanted to. I mean they just you know, but they try

The Professor (1:01:44)
That's right.

Jim Hartsell (1:01:44)
to they they try to I mean, e it it's gone up, but if you compare it to some of these other places, it hasn't gone up

like these other places have. I mean it's still within the realm of reality to to play it. so I'm a huge fan of the Lynx Trust. I'm a huge fan of the East Coast. you know, Ely's in my bo I love Ely and I love Anstruther and you know Kinghorn and London and Leaving and in North Berwick and so when you see when you see Mr Rawson you can well he can hear this but He he can he can he can

He can lay off of me now.

The Professor (1:02:19)
I'll relay

Matt Considine (1:02:19)
You know,

The Professor (1:02:19)
that message.

Matt Considine (1:02:21)
that there's that kind of leads me to one thing I wanted to ask you about. And I I almost feel like there could be tension to this question, Jim, but what is going through through my mind, I was gonna I was getting ready for this, and that's that, you know, as you have gained notoriety as a a writer and your writing becomes more successful, you've spent years now sending golfers towards places that were not on their itinerary.

You know, I'm one of them, Jim, and I'm extremely grateful for that because they literally changed my my trip, my ex my perspective, my whole lived experience. So it's it's amazing. And but on the other end, do do you ever do you ever worry that you are changing the places that you've admired so much by bringing more attention to them and bringing more people to them through your through your writing?

Jim Hartsell (1:03:11)
Yes, a hundred percent. I mean I had I've had this very discussion with several members at Dinaverty. when I was there doing the book launch, I said, you know, I hope you guys don't mind me writing about this place some 'cause because people more people have come there and I have worried about that. but to a person they said, No, no, this has been great. You know, we've been able to we've been able to buy a new lawnmower, we've been able to

You there's you know I do think about it, but I also think that even as much as I write about it, Matt, it's still a certain kind of golfer that's gonna go down to Dinaverty, that's gonna go out to Isle of Harris, it's gonna go out to Askernish, it's gonna go to even to Macrahannish for that matter. I don't think it'll ever be overrun because it's it's just a certain type of person that that is looking for that kind of experience. I mean, I've probably

And I would say in the last two weeks alone, I bet I've gotten twenty five messages from people who've gone to Dinarity for the first time. They're either sitting on the bench that I've put there for Jordan's memory, or they've just bought the book. And I'll think, man, it must be packed down there and I'll look at the tee sheet 'cause I can look at it on my phone. And you know, there'll be thirty open tea time. I mean, it's not there I think it's a nice balance. These places need

Visitors to survive. this has helped in Aberdee. it's helped places like Carradale, I think. And then there's a there's a class of places like Aberfall that they're not gonna make it unless they get more visitors. And you know, so I do worry about that. It's a very fair question. I used to worry about it a lot. I mean I've I've had this discussion several times, and then I realized when I was there in April, I bet I had fifteen or twenty members.

come up to me while I was sitting there eating lunch or din or whatever and say, Thank you for everything you've written about this club. We I c we can't thank you enough. and so I I've my my feelings on that matter have been I'm not as worried about it as I used to be. I d I just think if you're going to Denaverty, you've got it's a it's a it's you're it's a trip to get down there and you know, it's gonna be a certain type of person and it's gonna be the right I don't mean this to sound

you know, it's never gonna be a tour bus pulling up. Now, if that starts happening then maybe I've maybe I've failed a little bit, but I d I don't think it'll ever be that, you know.

Matt Considine (1:05:37)
Well, I no, and and I think I think Jim, there's

The Professor (1:05:39)
Okay.

Matt Considine (1:05:41)
the the one thing I I see because you also do this in your writing and you've certainly done it in just anyone who has conversations with you like this, you we we know that you're also championing affordability as part of

Jim Hartsell (1:05:54)
Yes.

Matt Considine (1:05:54)
what makes it real and work. And and I think what some people lose sight of is they they think about it just as ch championing affordability just means a lower price.

It also is about the cost structure. Like sometimes, you know, these clubs are special because of what they r decide what not to invest in and not pay for. And

Jim Hartsell (1:06:15)
Well

Matt Considine (1:06:15)
and and I think that that that that's in my opinion a balance that just needs to be done. And you know, there's a huge economy in Scotland around the visitor economy. And it's not just just sustaining places, it's people making a lot of money.

from from the business. And that's okay. You know, that's the world we live in. But I but I I I just commend you sometimes, Jim, for being the the the champion of what affordability actually means.

Jim Hartsell (1:06:40)
Well, yes, it is a big theme for me and I I don't want to pick on North Berwick, but you know, I remember having this conversation with Josh a couple of years ago. North Berwick had gone up to three sixty or three eighty or I don't even maybe be in four hundred now, I don't know. And I said, Josh, this is just too much and he said, I know, he said, but

we have found that we're not taken seriously by the tourist companies unless we charge a a high green fee. And if you guys

The Professor (1:07:05)
Yeah.

Jim Hartsell (1:07:05)
think about that, think about how backwards that is. that's just

The Professor (1:07:09)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Hartsell (1:07:10)
and you even see it at places like BRORO which has gone up now so high relative to to and it's because people on these tour that that are going on these tour groups like, well th that's this place can't be serious. They're only charging me thirty pounds.

It's just a backwards way of looking at things. It's and and look, it's the reality of the world. I'm not gonna s we're it's we're way past solving that, but you know, I do feel like when you can play ten of these places for the cost of one round at at Turnberry or something, or even fifteen of these places, there's a lot of value there. So it is something that I do champion.

The Professor (1:07:46)
Jim, I gotta a question that's been on my mind a ton for a decent amount of my life within golf and other places. And I'm really interested in your take on this. You know, I I'm sure you dream about moving to Scotland. I I know you do. I know I do as well. I have dreams about moving to Melbourne, you know, Sydney, all sorts of things, right? Often golf-centric. But then every time I go to bed, you know, playing that dream out, I wonder if

We did move to these ideal locations that we love and hold so dear dearly. Do you think the veneer that coats our experience as a visitor, you know, between the chemicals in our body and just coming in, coming out, do you think that would wear off over time as we see a little bit more of these places for lack of a better way to say it, what they are in terms of everything that's involved within it with them?

Jim Hartsell (1:08:42)
No. I mean

The Professor (1:08:44)
Say more.

Jim Hartsell (1:08:45)
I mean I well I d you know, I have thought about moving over there since the first trip I took. I remember even checking into it, what what you had to do to move to Scotland when I was at that young age and you know, I've g we've all got family and stuff and it's it's it's much easier to say think dream about it than the reality of doing it. But, you know, I could see myself living at

in South End, getting up and riding for f four hours, having my lunch, playing eighteen, coming back and just looking at the ocean, on my d on my front on my back from my back garden. I I would never get tired of that. and I've I've spent a ton of time there. I mean not obviously not living there, but I've I was just I think in something I recently read, I think I've spent a close to a year of my life in Scotland and

I don't think I would. I mean, granted you would you know, it it's funny k it's a good question, Kevin, and I'm not trying to be flippant about it. I just 'cause I've had this a lot of times when I've talked to some of these people and they've read these peop people that are members of these places that I've written about like, Yeah, this is so great. We just we don't see this w 'cause we're take it for granted. You know, it is different when you're there every day.

But I it's funny, I think it in some c it's it's ca even caused some people there to look at some of the things they have and but I would I don't think we would just because now we would we would obviously we would run into things and say, Wow, this is a lot different than what would happen in the US or you know, this would never happen in the US but I don't and from my standpoint I don't think we would. I mean you being the kind of person that you are, you'd you you'd have a project you'd be working on and

you know, so I just think that and I know it's easy to to to make things to be idyllic when you're not there all the time, but having got to know s people on a personal level, and how they live it it and I don't think I would ever get tired of it. And I I to this day I still think about doing it. I still think about you know, I wish I could go there to write my next book and you know, but I've got I've got two sons here that live a

thirty, forty minutes away and my dad's still around and I do still have to, you know, as much as I love writing and I still have to work as an architect to to you know, to help pay for the writing and so but I would do it, I'd do it in a second and I don't think I'd ever get tired of it and I don't think you would either. you know, your your excitement level when you're at somewhere like Melbourne or Helsinki or even in Scotland of course.

Like I can't wait to y you guys go to Denaverty in a few weeks. I I I I know it's it's i I it's it's it's hard to guarantee something, but I just can't wait to see your reaction to some of these places on Erin in Denaverty. and I d I just don't think we would get tired of it. so that's a

The Professor (1:11:38)
Well, I tell you what, Jim, sign me up for a cottage about five hundred yards down the road from you. I will also work on my riding every morning and join you at Dunaverty or Macrahannish February afternoon eighteen. Or I'll get a place over on the east coast and we can come stay with each other and do two weeks back and forth between the two.

Jim Hartsell (1:11:56)
Well, I always say I'm gonna live on in South End and my holiday home is gonna be on Erin, which is only an hour and twenty minutes away, but I'd go I'd probably go to Erin o in my cottage in Cory on the weekend. So yeah, we could meet there. That's kinda halfway and but

The Professor (1:12:12)
Yeah, we'll spread it out.

Jim Hartsell (1:12:13)
yeah.

Matt Considine (1:12:14)
This is I I

wanted to I had some fun ones and maybe as we start to wrap up here, Jim, I'm gonna squeeze this one in because it's it's timely to the professor heading over there and there's a bunch of other people listening that I know have trispland. Give us three rules for being a good guest at a Scottish club. And I'm gonna I'm gonna take one off the table because I think we talk about enough on this show. You gotta play fast. That that's my give give us three give us three good rules for being a good guest.

Jim Hartsell (1:12:37)
Okay.

Well that you hit the nail on the head. On that one a little bit, but you know, look for your ball, but don't look for your ball ad nauseum. I mean if the ball's gone, it's gone, you know, give up on it. And don't don't you know but yes, get get around the golf course. take your hat off when you come in the clubhouse. don't be

Don't be loud. I mean, don't don't be overbearing. I mean, d try to look at the s your surroundings and try to meet some people in the clubhouse and and and talk about their golf course and not so much about your round but just what you thought about the course and and you know, h how you enjoyed it and you know,

And and you know, it's this is a funny one, but they get mad at you when you tip too much over there. So d you know, they they don't you know, they don't have the same tipping culture that we do. So leave a pound coin or something or if you really feel moved to leave a little bit more, but I have there's a story in the book I think that we were at Ely and I we had such a good meal and the guy was so great and

I think I just tipped him a five pound note and he gave it back to me. He said, Sir, this is I cannot accept this. This is way too much And I said, Well I'm why? I said, Y well, I just I can't and so yes, don't don't and I'll well again I th I keep thinking of little ones, don't don't pay for something with a big bill. I mean most people pay with tapping their phone or card now, but if you do have a bunch of cash, don't hand them a twenty pound or or or f something too big. these are just mundane things, but

Just try to be don't try to be over try to try to you're you're a visitor. Try to act like a visitor and try to take in what how what their culture is and you know, it's not hard and that people are gonna especially at these places in my book, without fail somebody is gonna realize, Hey, we got an American here, and they're gonna come talk to you and and you're gonna have a great conversation and

So yeah, just just don't be too overbearing and loud would be my Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Considine (1:14:41)
Yeah. Yeah. Stay open. Stay curious. I I love I love that. Well,

last last question for you. I feel like in every conversation, Jim, there's this theme of of you know a feeling or something that you just w was instinctual. in a lot of ways, I think it's golf. I mean it's it's so meaningful to you. It's so meaningful to us, to so many listeners of this podcast, but it's asking something of you.

I feel like, you know? and and and asking you to share this marvel in the Sequatchie Valley. It's it's asking you to share, you know, heartbreaking grief. It's it's asking you to share these stories of these people that have changed your life. And as we as we just wrap up, I'm curious what's what it's asking of you now. And if there's anything you're circling around, but you're maybe not ready to call a book yet.

That that to what our whistle.

Jim Hartsell (1:15:35)
Well, it's really the same things. I mean I'm gonna I'm going to Denaverty a week, I'll be there a week from today and you know, I'll go out by my s I'll play with my friends, but I'll t I'll play around or two by myself and I'll I'll find something new that I've never seen before. I mean it's always a d quest to just look at things closely and and and try to understand the surroundings and you know, so I even though I'm going to a lot of the same places, I mean I I'll find different things. I you know, I'll find different things on air and

that I've not seen and I am thinking about I always like to have a project going. I I'm gonna one of the things I'm I've got this calendar that I do every year that I raise money for the junior golf program at Denaverty and I've really people have been s I'm already getting messages from people wanting to buy one. I hadn't even started it yet. And I've done it for about five years now. And I last year I I I hate to I'm not trying to brag about it, but I was I think I gave them about fifteen hundred pounds.

for their junior program and they were able to take the kids to Glasgow for lessons and they got to go to top golf and it just you know that means the world to me and so I I'm gonna do I'm doing my calendar which I've done for several years. I'm gonna write I've done a I did a course guide for Iona that's that that has been somewhat successful and I'm I I'm gonna I think I'm gonna do a course guide for Dinaverty.

you know, I am an architect and I do a lot of drawing and sketching and th th the ho the the drawings are kind of my interpretation of the the layout of the holes and so I'm thinking about doing that one one of those for denaverty. And then I've got a couple of book ideas. I've you know, my friend Chris McBride at Presswick wants to write a book with me. We've talked about it a couple of times, about his stories as a caddy for the last forty four years at Presswick and caddying in the open and caddying in the

British amateur and all this kind of stuff and so that's one and then I I really it's I'm I haven't narrowed anything down. I d the other one is this Lost Golf Courses of Aaron. I want to expand that into a full book, and that's the one I'm kinda leaning toward the most. and I may find a way to do both, but you know, I I've write for Link's Diary every I usually write two stories for every issue that they have. I've got two I've had I've got two coming up in the this

I've got two in the one that just came out and I'll have two in the next one that's coming out and so that kind of keeps me busy. But yeah, those are my I've got several things I mean I'll I'm that I'm gonna do and if y'all don't mind me I know we gotta end up here, but if y'all don't mind me just mentioning you know, the book at Backnine Press dot com is where you can get it. I mean you can get it on Amazon and stuff, but if you can't order it from b Backnine Press dot com. if you if you do enjoy this kind of writing,

you know, I don't you know, th i if you buy the book it allows me to keep doing this and I d I hate to make a plea like that, but it does give me the ability to go back over there and do some of this research and and stuff. So yeah, yeah, that's I've got a lot that I'm thinking about. I'm kinda still in the break mode right now and pr promoting this one and but I have started sketching on this Denaverty course guide and I will I will donate that to them and let them use it to raise money for the junior program.

And I just I doing this stuff in Jordan's memory has been one of the best ways that I can honor his memory and what he how much he loved golf and you know, the people that helped him when he was a junior player and you know, you guys love it or you wouldn't be doing this and it just if we've got to keep younger kids learning th what's great about this game and so that's kinda what I've got on my plate and thank you guys. It's a pleasure. I ha Kevin, I haven't seen you since I guess

January or February and it's great to see you and Matt, good to see you and any time you guys wanna talk, I'm happy to come home.

Matt Considine (1:19:27)
Well, thank you, Jim. Thank you. And Professor, thanks as always. tremendous booking with Jim today. And thanks everybody for for listening to our show. if you're not, I know many of your subscribers, but if you're not a subscriber, I'm gonna make a plea for you to to sub subscribe wherever you're listening to our show. if you enjoyed our chat specifically with Jim, I'm also told by our production crew we'd love for you to write a review of our show.

On whatever podcast system platform you're listening to. we're light on fresh reviews. So the professor and I would love to hear from you. give us an honest review, just tell us about the conversation, questions we asked, didn't ask that we we should get to. And if you want to connect with the professor, with me, with any of our guests like Jim, all of the contact information are is always in our show notes. We want people to reach out. This show is about connecting people.

So you'll find those links Jim mentioned to Back Nine Press in our show notes, as well as just just contact info to Jim. and all of our our handles and links to to things related to the backdrop. This show, the backdrop, and new club golf society are both in partnership with Titleist, and they're all new T Series family of irons. Check them out at the link in our show notes or over at Titleist.com. We'll catch you all on the next one.