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Patsy quit her job. Susannah quit the city. Now they’re on a quest to find the path through the wobbly middle of their careers. This podcast is for every woman who’s asking “What now?”.
Hosted by Susannah de Jager and Patsy Day, The Wobbly Middle features interviews with famed city superwomen, dazzling entrepreneurs and revolutionary midwives and doctors who reveal what they’ve learnt through their own wobbly middle experiences.
[00:00:07] Susannah de Jager: Welcome to The Wobbly Middle, a podcast about women reinventing their careers, with Susannahh de Jager and Patsy Day. Hi, Pats.
[00:00:21] Patsy Day: Hi, Susannah. How's your Wobbly Middle?
[00:00:24] Susannah de Jager: I've been thinking a lot about my first phase industry this week. I was going to say old industry, but that feels a bit reductive. It's like the universe has been throwing me memos. I bumped into two ex colleagues, I published a paper based on partnership structures and how to optimise them and today we're speaking to Helena Morrissey, Baroness Morrissey, who also comes from an investment management background. It feels like I'm being given an opportunity to reflect quite specifically on my own experiences and it's both a good feeling and a wobbly one. How about you, Pats?
[00:01:02] Patsy Day: Well, I was at a divorce party recently and found myself sitting next to a woman who'd just become my new neighbor and she's a maths teacher, but she's also, wait for it, an angel investor and she only mentioned it because she had bought the house after one of her investments had done very well and then another friend who was a nurse before she took some time off to have her children, she told me that she kills time outside the school gate by playing the stock market and she's pretty damn good at it. You could have knocked me over with a feather and I think it's just that we don't think of ourselves always as investors even though we have specialist knowledge in fields, we have good research skills, good analytical skills and it made me think that as we're going through this wobbly phase of our careers that we should really open our minds to what's out there in the world and I'm especially interested to hear more about Helena Morrissey's Pathway Project, the aim of which is to get more female professionals into investment.
[00:02:09] Susannah de Jager: Our guest today is Helena Morrissey. Helena was the woman held up as an example in asset management when I started my career, so it's a bit surreal having her here today. Over the course of her career, she strived to make women more visible at the top table. Through her founding of the 30 percent Club and ongoing involvement in the Diversity Project, she's been one of the most vocal advocates for women fund managers, women on boards and herself was a successful asset management CEO. Even so, at 50, she looked up and asked, what next? I look forward to sharing her honesty with you as she discusses confidence dips and difficulties, those you might not imagine someone as successful as her to experience. More positively, I'm encouraged by how she's navigating her path forward, led by values, purpose and identifying the characteristics of those people and projects that will serve her skills and her goals best. Helena, thank you so much for joining today. So, you're a wonderful person to discuss this with because you've published an article that literally said, you still love the job that you stepped away from. Given that was the case, what precipitated you pivoting your career?
[00:03:22] Helena Morrissey: I think sometimes we do have to step away from something we love if we're ambitious for trying something new and at that stage, I was 50 years old exactly and I had been doing the same job for 15 years, same company for 22 years and I realised I could carry on doing this or I could try something new and it was a bit of a step into the unknown, I did feel a loss of identity, people had, for years, associated me with that particular job and I did, you know, feel I'd grown up, as it were, with lots of my colleagues, they'd become friends. So, it was a wrench, but again, nothing ventured, nothing gained.
[00:03:56] Susannah de Jager: And so you took the decision that you needed to do something more, that there was something else out there and I think that's something that lots of people would identify with, that there's a sort of sense of what next. For you, was that, as you say, a complete step into the unknown? I just feel that I need to give myself space to consider my options, or did you have a very strong sense of, I need something that's more values driven, purpose driven, I'm in a different phase.
[00:04:23] Helena Morrissey: If I'm honest, I think it was probably a bit of both, because I had set up the 30 Percent Club while I was chief executive of Newton. So, I felt like I was doing something that was purposeful through that. Obviously, that initiative trying to get more women on boards have been quite successful, exceeded my own expectations, to be honest and nowadays there's over 40 percent women on UK company boards. So I'd had a taste of what it was to do something that was beyond a job. But I also felt there was a lot of unfinished business within the sector that I worked in investment management. So what I was trying to do in my head, but it was definitely unthought through at that stage, was to think about how could we bring investment and looking after finances to a broader audience? How could we, as it were, democratise money and investing and make people more confident about something that can cause a lot of anxiety for a lot of people, including women of course, who are often financially less literate or less confident anyway than the men in their lives. So I had this idea of trying to combine the two.
[00:05:24] Susannah de Jager: It's reassuring to hear that even somebody with such a successful career and who gets upheld as the sort of city superwoman and I'm sorry, I know you probably hate that! But it is how you were sort of characterised.
[00:05:35] Helena Morrissey: I'm often characterised as that. It just sometimes makes me feel a little inadequate on a day to day basis for not being so super, but anyways.
[00:05:42] Susannah de Jager: And I think that would be almost the point I would want to write is that even when other people might have this perception of well for you it must be so easy, it must have been so straightforward and you probably had it all planned, it's really comforting to hear, for me certainly and I hope for others, that that's not the experience and that even when you would appear to others to have so many options available to you and be so successful, that it's still a step into the unknown and I suppose to that end, if you wouldn't mind, it would be great to hear about that period.
[00:06:14] Helena Morrissey: Well, I do want to start by emphasising that it doesn't matter sort of what your job title is or has been or what status other people hold you up to be. You do have the same exact feelings of insecurities and uncertainties and I also, in all honesty, still needed to earn. I am a mother of nine children, there's a lot of cost centers, as people like to sometimes call them, but I would be a little bit more romantic about how I'd characterise my children. But you know, a lot of expenses, a lot of overheads. So I didn't have really the luxury of completely, you know, whatever happens will happen and I guess that time of reflection, because I do think it's very important not to rush and in some ways I did rush, but that time of reflection was important for discussing, because also you don't really spend a lot of time talking about yourself, I realised, up until that point. You think you're strategising your career or spending enough time on that, but actually giving myself enough space to have lots of cups of coffee with friends, with potential mentors, with people who have my best interests at heart, or search firms. Having an exploratory phase of thinking about, well, what might be next was very valuable, but it was also slightly disconcerting because I thought, oh, I didn't realise that about myself, or I didn't realize I was perceived in such a way. So one of the frustrations for me was that I had thought very clearly that I wanted another executive role. Lots of search firms, wanted me to take on non exec work and I didn't feel ready for that. I felt I really still had it in me to do at least one more executive role and as I said, to try to make something of a difference in terms of building up more confidence among women in particular around how to invest and look after their money. So that was quite frustrating because I would meet someone and say, I really want to do more executive role and they would come back to me and say, Oh, this wonderful non exec position. I say, I'm not speaking the same language here and that was frustrating so people still have these preconceptions, make assumptions, whatever your status or role in life.
[00:08:12] Susannah de Jager: How fascinating that you feel that was projected on you even though you had clearly demonstrated you were able and had the appetite.
[00:08:19] Helena Morrissey: I know I didn't really know how to articulate it any more clearly, really and it was actually a friend of mine or a colleague on the investment association board who was Chief Executive of another investment management company and said, Helena, I want to set up a direct customer business, personal investing business, would you come and run it? And that was exactly what I wanted, the sort of thing I wanted to do. But he was the only person because he'd seen me close up and he knew that I had the appetite and the willingness to work hard still. But it was a little bit disconcerting that I felt I was speaking some sort of foreign tongue that people didn't hear what I was saying.
[00:08:52] Susannah de Jager: I'll give a busy person something to do.
[00:08:54] Helena Morrissey: And they'll get it done. So, I felt frustrated by that.
[00:08:58] Susannah de Jager: It resonates hugely I remember the same experience when I had stepped back from the job I'd been in for 10 years, the people telling me what they thought I was and how ill fitting I found it and how difficult it is because you feel like it's quite a negative stance from that position to convince somebody effectively that you don't agree or that they're wrong. You use the word rush and I thought that was really interesting because you have a sort of impatience to find the right thing and I think it's probably very natural. I don't know if you spoke to many people, they would have that feeling of, why hasn't it happened already?
[00:09:33] Helena Morrissey: Exactly, and I think now with the benefit of hindsight, I did rush, even though I was trying to give myself that space that I mentioned earlier and I liked enough about the opportunity that was in front of me to say yes and I did feel a sense, we talked about this a moment ago, you know, loss of identity really, in terms of not having a job to go to, that probably, I should have embraced more, I should have just said, look, actually, why do I feel after all this work for so long, so many years, why can't I give myself a bit more of a pause? So now I would steal myself. I would ask my friends, my husband, particularly, to help me not to rush because I think sometimes we think we need to do all this ourselves and it's not necessarily a sign of weakness to ask for help and to ask for help to take things slow because ultimately I'm the person that goes around telling people, you know, a career is a marathon, not a sprint, sometimes you need to take time.
[00:10:30] Susannah de Jager: You and I have spoken a little bit about subsequent roles that you took on and, that they weren't a perfect fit straight away and I wanted to hear a little bit about how that feels, because again, I think that's an inevitable pattern when you've been somewhere for a long time, you're not going to take the perfect immediate next step, but it can feel quite frustrating, lonely and if you are quite a perfectionist, successful person, it feels like you ought to have got it right.
[00:10:57] Helena Morrissey: I now look upon those slight false steps that I took between then and now, in some cases, as again, useful, helpful learning experiences and things that have now made me very clear about the criteria when I take on a new role. Do I like the people? Do I love the business? Do I think I can contribute something? Simple things, really. But rather than thinking, Oh, goodness, someone's asked me to do something, I must say yes.
[00:11:22] Susannah de Jager: I'm really pleased that you came to that point because it's easy to feel that it's a misstep, but actually I think it's probably necessary. I think that it would be almost impossible to know so much about yourself in potential other scenarios that you immediately step into something and for me, I have this language around whatever stage it happens at for you, but there's a sort of conveyor belt, it's almost an extension of an academic career, and you step off at some point and it's really discombobulating and the idea that we are expected, either of ourselves or externally, to get it right is just so improbable.
[00:12:03] Helena Morrissey: I couldn't agree more and I always say to people, I mean, this is my own advice, which I need to keep myself, a career isn't a ladder, it's a labyrinth. You know, I don't know anybody who's gone from the bottom to the top all in one fell swoop and stayed there. So there are twists and turns. A labyrinth, if you've ever walked it, isn't like a maze where there's dead ends, it's much more that you go back and forth on yourself, and it's quite a spiritual experience. Actually, I've walked one with my daughter and we kept feeling that we were going back on ourselves and that would never get to the end. But then you do and I think a career often, again, trying to remember that it doesn't matter if you don't know every step along the way, sometimes the diversions might be really valuable in terms of setting you up for the next thing, you might meet someone, you might be introduced to a new opportunity. It doesn't happen in a straight line and how we deal with those setbacks, those twists and turns is absolutely critical. I've learned that sometimes the setbacks are more important to a bigger success later on than if we just happily skipped along and went straight to the finishing line because we just don't have that depth and we can't deal then with something going wrong at the end. So absolutely difficult, though it may be to deal with it, important to deal with those setbacks and those twists and turns.
[00:13:14] Susannah de Jager: Yeah, couldn't agree more and actually, taking all of what you've said and thinking about, therefore, we're both in vigorous agreement that you need to give yourself more time, be kind to yourself, not expect to have the answer and at the same time, we're both agreeing again, that you are probably going to misstep and not to be too tough on oneself. So if we take that as the framework that we're agreeing on, what would be the advice you would now give to somebody in that space? Are there specific things about how to force yourself to take more time that you now either do or that you perceive are really helpful?
[00:13:53] Helena Morrissey: So one thing that I would suggest with, as I say, the benefit of hindsight is that you've got to deal with that sense of perhaps panic even that might emerge quickly some people can meditate, some people can praise. but work out a method for yourself. So how you overcome that sense of I'm failing because I'm not busy and doing something of value. Secondly, I began to feel, if I'm honest, a bit bored of always waking up next day and thinking, okay, so who am I going to meet today and have a coffee and everything seemed at the same superficial level. What I would do now is if somebody raises a suggestion and it could be just a friend over a cup of coffee, it could be somebody that you have worked with in the past, who you trust. If there's a little kernel, a seed of an idea, then I would now start to build a bit of a plan around, well how could I explore that further? It doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be the right thing. And I would also accept that actually, and perhaps I should have mentioned this earlier, but it felt like I was stepping out from a comfort blanket from my previous role because I'd been there so long and so this advice is really for people who are not just changing direction, but actually been in the same place for a very long time, done the same thing for a very long time, that actually acknowledge that by its nature is going to feel uncomfortable and that would be the reason to stay and never to try anything new. But of course you then, it can be stifling that comfort blanket and it can end up that you're feeling, Oh no, not another day. I actually feel that now it's been very energising, it has given me new ideas, new contacts, new friendships, new sense of purpose, new initiatives that I've set up. I feel very fulfilled by that and very hopeful and energised I'm 58 now, so this is now eight years in that the next eight years, I feel excited about that and perhaps if I'd stayed where I was, I wouldn't feel that same sense of excitement.
[00:15:40] Susannah de Jager: Again, something that's coming up increasingly, is this idea of different phases of our lives and reinvention the point you make that if you stay in something, it's not growing anymore, but that the moving between them isn't going to feel comfortable. When you look onwards, is it something you now feel better able to navigate, increasing change having gone through this first phase or do you think it'll have some of the same colors and feelings every time?
[00:16:08] Helena Morrissey: So what I've learned is to be more comfortable with that sense of change and never being static Now I have in some ways a less stable outlook. But that means I'm constantly on the lookout for exciting potential opportunities and I've learned now to really enjoy that and to regard that, you know, as part of my career strategy, my life strategy at this stage. what's good about that is I don't feel that I'm in any way atrophying that, I haven't talked about hitting the menopause just about the same moment that I stopped working at Newton and then of course the COVID, It was like the perfect storm, really. a lot of these things before would have really spooked me and I felt quickly undermined or uncertain about the future. Now I can't say I love that sense of being always on the lookout, but I've learned to enjoy it and make something happy about that and make something where I'm looking forward to meeting new people. Save some days, I'm thinking, Oh, I just want a quiet life and everything to carry on. But I do recognize that's part of this phase I'm in and that is very energising.
[00:17:09] Susannah de Jager: You use the word identity more than once and something that to me comes out of what you've said about especially that first period of engaging with people, recruiters and people projecting onto you what you are at the same time as you've given up an identity is a very disconcerting space and so suddenly you've given up this substance, this very solid identity and in place of it what you've got is other people's projections of you. If I were to characterise what you're saying, it's quite elegant in that effectively don't allow yourself to be put back in that situation where it all happens immediately. So your identity is no longer as defined by one role and you are on a continuous basis having these conversations and being potentially more directive and deliberate about the conversations you're engaging with. Is that fair?
[00:17:57] Helena Morrissey: It is fair and I would say by this stage in life, hopefully in that middle zone, we have a sense of what is important to us, we have a sense of our priorities in life. Just take that deep breath and not be pushed around. Clearly, we've got to be open to suggestions, but that's different from being pushed around. But I know what's important to me. I know I'm not going to want to work with a certain type of person, I know I'm not going to work in a certain type of industry, but positively, I know what I love doing, I really enjoy working with great people. It's such a cliche to say it, but it's such a fundamental thing to me that if I met someone along the way who I'd be working with closely, who I knew would It's not just a slight style difference, but fundamental different outlook in life on what's important and how we conduct ourselves, and how we treat other people, that would be a no for me now, and I would be disciplined enough to say no, and not just, be flattered that someone's interested in appointing me to something.
[00:18:47] Susannah de Jager: And I was going to come back to that word becauseflattery and feeling chosen and anointed can be quite alluring and you are articulating how important it is not to be swayed by that. But also you're identifying values in two very different ways. It's alignment of values with individuals and then it's effectively the values and the purpose of the work itself and I think it's quite nice to split those two apart, they obviously speak to. a fundamental set that you hopefully hold, but it's that thing of looking for them in two places, the substance and the people.
[00:19:20] Helena Morrissey: Well, yes, because often obviously a company might have a great mission, but it may have lost its way in terms of how it's setting about achieving that, or it may be marketing speak rather than actually genuine and so again, when you're meeting, I would definitely advise people to do your due diligence because again, the things that I took on which I thought were just about right enough to take on, I hadn't done enough due diligence with hindsight and also not being sold a line, I guess I just took yes at face value and now I would probe that a bit more.
[00:19:55] Susannah de Jager: And I think it's easy to do. I think that positivity, if one frames it one way, when it then transpires not to be the case, it can look like naivety. But on the way in, they can often be one and the same and I think that your point that one should probe is fair. You might still not yield the answer and so I think you've got to cut yourself some slack.
[00:20:13] Helena Morrissey: And I think particularly, you say, if you've done the same thing for years and years and then you are going to do something new, which will inevitably result in new learnings, new people, things that you will like about the new opportunity, things that you don't like so much. You can't be purist about it. It's more, is it fundamentally in alignment with what your beliefs are? And are you going to get on enough, well enough with the people that you'll be working with so that you can be effective?
[00:20:38] Susannah de Jager: You set up the 30 Percent Club and now you're very involved with the Diversity Project, chairing the board there as well, and have been setting up the Pathways program, which you've just launched the third year, I wanted to hear you speak a bit about the programme.
[00:20:53] Helena Morrissey: Thank you. Well, I'm going to start with a self critical statement because I have been chairing the diversity project since we launched, in fact, I'm one of the co founders in 2016 and at the time, I was then one of the few female past or present fund managers in the city and fund management sounds like a rather esoteric profession but actually fundamental to everybody's wealth in this country because everyone pretty much has a pension fund, or I hope they do and there are fund managers who are making decisions on your behalf. So if we only have men making decisions on behalf of all the rest of us, then that's not necessarily the best team. So it has been a source of great frustration to me that almost no change since I joined the industry 36 years ago. I don't think they collected any data then, but when they started collecting data it was roughly 10 percent female fund managers of the total and today it's 12% and that's not just a UK problem, it's a global statistic. A couple of years ago I thought, ah, I've been trying so hard, you know, run networks for women, encouraged people, obviously firms to hire more women at the entry level, encouraged them to be mentored, set up various things around encouraging equal paid parental leave, all this kind of thing. Still no progress whatsoever, and no sign that any was ever going to be made, frankly and I realised, I thought suddenly, we need to do something much more targeted and much more concerted and this I now believe is the answer to some of those other pockets where women have not been making great strides. You've got to go about it in a less Oh, we'll throw a few ideas at it and something will change. That's not necessarily going to happen in my experience. It's not going to be time either, because the same things, I was the only woman in a team of 16 when I started managing money and that's still the case for many women in the fund management industry today. So, a couple of years ago, floated this idea in the diversity project and people said, yeah, well, let's try that So the diversity project set this up and we are just about to get going on the third year and it's been so exciting Susannah, I've got to say, for the first time in my entire career, I now feel we're really onto something. So, if I can just briefly say, the first year we had 60 women on the program, just over 30 companies involved and what I had massively underestimated was the community. One minute they're the only person that they ever met who wants to do this, and the next minute there are 59 other people like them and other women like them. This year we're 80 women from just over 40 companies and what we learned from last year's program I was very happy with, we started to measure the impact, there's been 26 promotions already, 11 to fund manager type roles, but this year what we've seen is a step up in the energy and enthusiasm because what we asked was for firms to set up an application process for candidates to put themselves forward for women to say, yes, this is what I want to do and so we've got that real sense of this is a lifetime opportunity and it's so exciting. it's all taught, almost all of the program is taught by past or present fund managers, both men and women, so they know what it takes to succeed and I feel we're on to something, as I say, a formula has emerged and next year's program will include a trader track.
I don't think people even collect data on how many female traders there are because there's just so few, they probably count them on one hand. But we have a man who's a head of dealing at Legal General, said right at the beginning, he said please can you do a trader track, Helena? So he's leading that, he's got a small group together of heads of dealing or heads of trading across the city, and they're working on the curriculum and so it's all tailor made and I'm confident now that we're going to have a breakthrough and then it will become culturally changing as well, because of course, the city is still, goes through scandals. Last year we had the CBI scandal, we had the allegations against Crispin Odey, and it's still very off putting I think for young women at university or even at school thinking, maybe I won't go into that career because it seems very antagonistic, very, un female friendly. So what we're trying to create is a community and a group of women who are going to pay it forward to the next generation who are going to be really doing powerful roles and creating a new culture in firms, so very exciting, really.
[00:24:57] Susannah de Jager: I love that. The point around community, is so important. I myself had a group, I'm seeing them on Tuesday actually for lunch and we used to catch up and laugh about things and talk about shared problems that were in some cases maybe common to everyone in the industry. In some cases they would be specific to us as women and so I think that point you identify and that you're creating of camaraderie is so wonderful and important. So if I were somebody listening and I'm in an asset management job, why don't you tell us a little more about what it actually offers.
[00:25:31] Helena Morrissey: So the program's organised this year around six themes and next year it'll be eight themes and so we cover technical skills and obviously we have a range of people coming on the program. So some are really quite experienced in investments, if someone is interested in applying from another adjacent role, they can go on a bootcamp that we do with Fitch Learning and they take, it'll be three days and they get up to speed and up to all the basics. So we do technical skills and then that culminates in a model portfolio competition, which is quite fun and it's run in teams. So again, people build a bit of community. We have those who are more experienced in investments, help those who are less experienced and it gets wonderful to see how people thrive in that setting and we're doing it competitively, so that will run for six months and we will have winners and alongside that, we do a lot of, one of the other themes is on leadership and behavioral skills. A lot of women, I know, worry about imposter syndrome, suffer from that. We have had sessions on presentation skills, particularly when you're presenting in a room full of men and want to engage that audience, or someone might be being a bit aggressive. How do you deal with that? So very practical, hands on advice for that sort of thing. We do have a pay it forward strand, because again, I believe very strongly that anybody at any stage can help other people and so we have a competition again, work in teams, present some ideas on what should the industry do to make things better for the next generation of women coming up behind and then volunteering opportunities for them to get involved as well. Next year, we're going to have a session on AI and the implications for AI and technology on investing. We run things around how to be a good investor, which include things like your appetite for risk and how do you deal with your own psychology around risk. A lot of women think that they're risk averse, I think sometimes we are lesser than we imagine, we go ahead and have children, which inherently is a risky thing and we deal with that. But I think it's very important that people end up after this being able to know if they are risk averse, how they deal with that and how they have the courage of their convictions and we have a lot of focus on networking and there's a lot of access around role models, not just female fund managers, but a lot of industry leaders get involved. and last but not least, we have a whole strand on career activism, and I am big on this, because I feel that as a young woman in fund management, I did not take control of my own destiny. I sat in the corner working all the hours. Probably the hardest working in terms of number of hours put in anyway of anybody on the desk and just expected someone to tap me on the shoulder and give me a promotion and a pay rise. It does not work like that, you have to take control, you have to think about how can you develop your career from your current role. So part of the teaching is around how do you make the most of your current role? And the other element is positioning yourself for the next one. a lot of women arrived, and had this sense that there was only one path to becoming a fund manager. People think, become an analyst and you do that for a decade or so and then you become a fund manager, when they heard the stories of real life experiences of women and men who become fund managers, again, it's that winding road, it's that labyrinth. Some have been in auditing, some have been abroad and suddenly realised what it was to evaluate a stock and work with a company and thought, actually, I'd like to do that. So lots of different routes to it and again, I think what it's done is opened up these paths to women thinking, actually, now I know at least the next step I will take. Maybe they won't know every step to get there, but they'll know the next step and they also, after the program's finished, have an alumni network and are invited back to events and they also have a sponsor at their firm. So this is not a question of sending a woman on a course, washing your hands of them, say see you in a year's time. No stone unturned.
[00:29:08] Susannah de Jager: No, no stone unturned. Honestly, I could keep asking you things for hours, but I fear that it might be more for my benefit than those listening. So I'm going to finish up actually with one more broad question for you again. What would be the career advice given everything we've discussed that you would give your 30 year old self.
[00:29:25] Helena Morrissey: So I think by 30 I was quite on a path really, but I still worried a lot about what could go wrong rather than that I might succeed. I would tend to hold myself back from just trying it. Nowadays, and perhaps this is something that comes with age, I adopt the Nike slogan, just do it, because a lot of the time, particularly women, I felt that we end up talking ourselves out of things sometimes. We worry about what might go wrong, we worry about the risk of failure. You might succeed, you know. So now I would say, try to consign those worries really to the very deepest recesses of your mind. Focus on what lies immediately in front. Position, try to be strategic a little bit about it because that's what I missed out on put yourself forward a little bit. Again, we worry about being seen as bossy or aggressive or too assertive or all sorts of other horrible words and that. But actually, I've noticed, we can go a long way before we're in any danger of seeing that and then last but not least, you know, do have that network of support. You mentioned your friends in asset management. I have a lot of family members, children included, who are my cheerleaders when I need it and who can pick you up when you have those wobbles when you're down. So make sure you're not trying valiantly to do this all by yourself find a friend, find somebody, I had a more senior woman, right at the start of my career, we had nothing in common. I felt very much in awe of her, but it turned out that we were expecting our first child on exactly the same due date and we bonded over that and she became a great ally and a friend, but I wouldn't have had the courage to go up and ask for her support if we hadn't had that experience in common. So ask people sometimes, they might be very pleased to help you.
[00:31:05] Susannah de Jager: Yeah. Wonderful. Helena, thank you so much. You've been really generous.
[00:31:09] Helena Morrissey: Thank you. It's been a pleasure.