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In this episode of The Shrink Down, we dive into the rise of GLP-1 medications, originally developed for diabetes but now widely used for weight loss. We explore the psychological impacts of these drugs, including how they can reduce “food noise” and influence mental health. The discussion also touches on the social dynamics and stigma surrounding weight loss medications and the importance of approaching the topic without judgment. Finally, we consider the long-term implications of GLP-1 use and the need for ongoing research and understanding.
Creators and Guests
Host
What is The Shrink Down?
Four lifelong friends, all clinical psychologists, unpack the latest in current events, pop culture and celebrity news through the lens of psychology.
Vanessa (00:00.494)
Welcome back to the shrink down today. We're diving into one of the biggest health stories the past few years We are in the GLP one era. You've probably heard about these drugs They go by lots of different names ozempic would go V Monjaro These were originally developed to treat diabetes, but now they're being used by millions of people for weight loss So Terry just gave me a nice little estimate here that by 20 35 7 percent of Americans will be on a GLP one That is a lot of people
These drugs are now some of the top selling pharmaceutical drugs. As of March, 2025, this was the top two for Eli Lilly, who was one of the top 20 pharmaceutical companies, but they are a dominant force in the GLP-1 market right now. So we're going to be talking about how these have gone from prescriptions to kind
Lauren (00:33.942)
Bye.
Vanessa (00:47.662)
top culture phenomenon. We'll talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to sharing. If you're on a GLP-1, kind of the health benefits of being on them, what are the psychological benefits, and what are maybe like some of the negative side effects for these as well? Before we get into today's topic, let's do our four-minute faves. Lauren, do you want to start us off?
Teri (00:57.411)
you
Lauren (01:07.019)
Sure. So my four minute fave came out of a very like or in a very organic way because my sibling, my sisters and my mom, we were, had everybody over Saturday for dinner, just like family dinner and everybody was over and I was wearing my pick it up here. No, we did something before the game because it didn't start till eight o'clock here.
Wilhelmina (01:22.907)
And the game, I'm guessing. And the game, I'm guessing. Mm. OK.
Lauren (01:29.825)
So all the littles are in bed at that point and stuff like that. So no, we did like a, we have nothing to do during the day, Saturday dinner at like three o'clock. So yes. Yes. You know, it's very funny here in Michigan, we had a rough weekend in sports where we had the Tigers, Michigan and the Lions were all eight o'clock games, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. It's like.
Teri (01:38.327)
I like that.
Wilhelmina (01:38.429)
For our listeners, Lauren and I both went to University of Michigan. So when we say the game, we mean the University of Michigan game.
Teri (01:44.259)
referring to Michigan football.
Wilhelmina (01:47.527)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren (01:57.377)
It's hard for somebody that goes to bed at nine o'clock. But anyway, no, were, everybody was over and they were commenting on my shoes, my little clog dupes from Amazon. These are one of those things that an influencer posted about a lot. And then I actually bought to try and they are as good as the influencer was suggesting.
Teri (02:00.067)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (02:20.999)
And so all of my, you my sisters and my mom were all putting them in their cart, but they're out. I'll link it. It's like an Amazon dupe and they're so comfortable. They've got padding on the bottom. They're like what I kind of view as the fall flip-flop. So super cute on and definitely a dupe. You're not going to spend a whole lot of money. So affordable little fall clog.
Wilhelmina (02:43.057)
And Terry, didn't you have those like a couple of years, not the Amazon one, but you, yeah, you had those as your fave last season. Legit, yes.
Teri (02:46.337)
Yes.
Lauren (02:47.841)
The like legit. Yes. These are these are the yeah, the less pricey version that are actually super cute, super comfortable and worth it if you're wondering, because I'm sure you've all seen that there's several influencers that end up posting the same things over and over again. And you're like, OK, like, obviously somebody is giving them a cup, you know, a cut to talk about this over and over again. But I did get them and they are as advertised super comfortable, super cute.
Teri (02:49.559)
Yes, yes.
Vanessa (03:04.25)
yeah.
Lauren (03:16.822)
And now I want to get them in another color. So anyway.
Wilhelmina (03:19.027)
They are the perfect, they don't look good on my feet, but they are, I love seeing them on others and they are the perfect fall, especially for a fall we've had like this where it's been warmer. So you can kind of like embrace the fall, but yeah.
Teri (03:29.655)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (03:29.941)
Yeah. No socks and yeah, exactly. Yeah. They're like a good little, good little, fall flip-flops. So anyway, highly recommend. Terry, what about you?
Teri (03:41.495)
Mine is a channel, well, a suggestion and a channel that actually just got sparked when we were chatting before we started recording. So most people, I think we're like most people, where our TV is a series of streaming. So Hulu is our main, whatever we use if we want to watch WGN News or whatever sports, we use Hulu to get to ESPN. But then we also have Netflix and Amazon and Max and whatever. have every, we literally have every streaming service under the sun.
Wilhelmina (04:08.721)
You
Teri (04:10.377)
we don't even watch that much stuff, but just in case we want to. Years ago, for whatever reason, when you would turn on our TV, it was set to go to Max, HBO Max. At the time, my oldest was, I don't know, five or six, and watched some crazy scene from a Fast and Furious movie. He was the only one awake and went downstairs and turned on the TV and woke up my husband and I and was freaking out and quoting it and was like, there was guns and money and whatever. I don't know.
Lauren (04:10.753)
Same. Just in case.
Vanessa (04:12.671)
Foo, foo, foo, foo, foo.
Wilhelmina (04:14.963)
Just in case.
Teri (04:40.109)
So anyways, my husband years ago switched it, I don't know how he did this, so that when you turn on our TV, it is set to the channel Tiny House Nation. So there is a channel called Tiny House Nation, exactly as advertised. It is just, there's no commercials even. There's breaks and then it just shows other tiny houses being flipped really quickly. There's literally like, the only thing it shows is tiny houses and typical half hour episodes start to finish.
Lauren (04:49.569)
Yes. I know exactly.
Vanessa (04:50.454)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (04:50.866)
You
Lauren (05:02.795)
Yeah.
Teri (05:08.963)
people of all different backgrounds, families, single people, couples, deciding to downsize and build their custom dream tiny house. So what has happened is, so one, my fave is a suggestion of if you have kids in the home and use streaming services, I think it's very clever to have the station set to tiny house nation or something or cooking or something equivalent. It used to be, before this it was set to Gordon Ramsey's,
Lauren (05:28.213)
Yeah.
Vanessa (05:30.062)
I didn't even know you could do that.
Teri (05:35.479)
kitchen cooking show. So my kids know Gordon Ramsay and he's pretty intense. So they know who he is. So what has happened is we get sucked into these tiny house episodes and end up watching them and they're really cute. I personally really like tiny houses. If I was a single person with no kids, I would seriously consider living in a tiny house. I'm only five three, so I don't need that much space anyways. But I think it would be nice. And the last thing is you have to be careful.
Vanessa (05:35.926)
Lauren (05:40.033)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (05:48.49)
haha
Vanessa (05:53.693)
You
Lauren (05:54.763)
you
Vanessa (05:57.902)
you
Lauren (05:58.698)
Hahaha
Teri (06:03.843)
Because somehow over the weekend, my family, we entered into a discussion that has resulted in my 10 year old getting to partially design his own tiny house to put in our backyard in the spring and next summer. We'll see if this actually comes to fruition. But as of now, my 10 year old is very psyched to design his own little tiny, a very small tiny house for him and his brother to play in.
Wilhelmina (06:11.859)
haha
Vanessa (06:13.262)
I'm
Lauren (06:24.242)
I love that.
Teri (06:28.555)
With the caveat being they actually did have a playhouse in the backyard until two years ago after we donated it that they never played in. So we will see if this happens. But Tiny House Nation as a channel, having your TV set to it.
Vanessa (06:33.213)
Yeah
Lauren (06:41.941)
Yeah, I love that.
Wilhelmina (06:42.674)
Terry, in 20 years, Danny's being interviewed for Architectural Digest and he's like, all started with a tiny house that I built with my dad in our backyard.
Teri (06:48.195)
It all started.
Lauren (06:48.223)
Yeah.
Vanessa (06:49.518)
The tiny house.
Teri (06:53.377)
Yes. Now he has said, Danny has said for the last couple of years, he wants to be an architect and he loves to draw. That being said, so it's interesting you say that every architect I know, so anybody listening, you can correct me I'm wrong, does not describe being very pleased with their career choice. So I'm hoping because you're having to abide by laws and governing bodies and rules and size. Yeah. Sizes of step.
Wilhelmina (06:59.833)
Lauren (07:11.268)
that's interesting.
Lauren (07:17.461)
You're not really creating. Yeah, that makes sense.
Vanessa (07:18.806)
Yeah.
Teri (07:20.727)
and like with, and there's just so much that goes into that are requirements when you're designing something. It's like not as glamorous. It's not, you know, back in the 1800s or whatever Frank Lloyd writes like, here's my beautiful house, make it for me. And it doesn't have any, you know, guidelines to follow. So, yeah. How about you, Wilhelmina?
Lauren (07:29.057)
That makes sense. Yeah.
Lauren (07:34.741)
Right? Right?
Wilhelmina (07:39.102)
or like the Oscar movie, The Brutalist, The Brutalist, when she was an architect. Yeah, you think of this like, I'm just gonna design these buildings that are beautiful and people are gonna love them. But now it's like, yeah, I can see how it would be. Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah. A lot of math too, feel like. Okay, so I was originally thinking that I was gonna do a show, but I started the show and I actually wasn't sure if I was gonna recommend it. So I'm like, nope, not doing that.
Vanessa (07:43.854)
yeah.
Teri (07:50.017)
lot of rules.
Lauren (07:51.617)
There's reality to it.
Vanessa (07:53.198)
Let's go.
Teri (07:55.363)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (07:55.842)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (07:56.449)
Hmm?
Lauren (08:06.625)
Never mind.
Vanessa (08:07.566)
you
Wilhelmina (08:09.257)
So I have been doing some neurosomatic trainings on this website that I got introduced to. And for anyone, it's basically like different exercises you can do to communicate to your nervous system, of like calm it down, regulate it. And so I'm exactly, I know I'm like, I'm learning it for myself, but I'm also learning it because I'm trying to help some of my patients I'm working with implement that.
Vanessa (08:30.104)
We all need that.
Lauren (08:31.211)
Yep.
Teri (08:31.523)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (08:39.537)
So they have all of these tools that you kind of need as you're learning these techniques. And they're very random. There's like a plastic bag, a blindfold, like colored glasses. But one of the things is an ab belt. And I was like, and I heard them talking about it on their podcast and I was like, an ab belt. I'm like, what is that? So I got it. And I'm like, this looks like a weight training belt, which is essentially what it is. It's for like, if you are working out or.
But how they use it, you wrap it around and it's a tool that basically kind of helps focus. You don't have to focus on like kind of keeping yourself up. sort of like keeps you up. It's like a weighted blanket, I would say, the equivalent in terms of how it could feel. and as someone myself, I have always sort of like hunched. it's just, my lower back has always been a bit, it's like a family thing where.
So I have to spend a lot of focus to like stand upright, like sit upright. So sometimes when I'm sitting for long periods of time or doing something where I'm very aware of my posture, like, I don't know a podcast. I'm very aware of that. And so the app, I put this on as one of the trainings and I was like, ooh, I like it. Cause it instantly like took that away. Like I could just sit straighter up and I wasn't focused on like.
And that's kind of what it is. It's for, and again, all of these techniques is not gonna work for everyone. So there's gonna be certain people that that's not a thing, just like weighted blankets. Some people like, my God, I put them on, it's great. Some people are like, hate them. So it was kind of an interesting thing. And especially if you have a job where you're sitting and it could be something you put on for a little bit and it kind of helps you focus, helps you sort of take one less.
Vanessa (10:29.464)
Thank you.
Wilhelmina (10:30.265)
stimuli away from your body that you can kind of focus more and it, I don't know, it was an interesting surprise as I'm kind of learning these things and I just was sort of taken aback how much I was like, that's nice. So I did. Yeah. And there was not any specific one. I'm like, I'll put one on that was recommended, but like it's literally anything. And again, it's used for a variety of different things. And this is not
Lauren (10:45.835)
I actually liked it. Yeah.
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (10:58.717)
for any of the reasons it's advertised, it's more of a sensory technique that could help depending on your own body and your own kind of likes and dislikes.
Lauren (11:11.115)
Hmm. Very cool.
Wilhelmina (11:13.245)
Vanessa, what about you?
Vanessa (11:15.451)
So before I do mine, I wanted to share that I tried the face towels, the Clean Skin Club face towels that Lauren shared. So we do actually try each other's faves. I love them. I got them during prime. So I got like a good deal on them and I love them. And I was like, now I don't have to get my towels all dirty. So I just wanted to let you know that I really like them. great. Yeah.
Lauren (11:20.917)
yes. And yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (11:25.441)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (11:33.281)
It's been like my favorite thing is not having my makeup on my towels. It's like so nice.
Vanessa (11:38.519)
Yes. I, so like, I, I don't know if it's like my sink or, cause I'm not very tall. I'm also 5'3". So like, but I get my sink all wet when I'm washing my face. And so like, I don't, I double use them. I, yes, like, so then I do my face and then I wipe down the counter. And then I was like, yes. Yeah. So anyway, wanted to let you know that. Okay. So we've shared a lot of different things on here. Movies, books, snacks, health, all kinds of things.
Wilhelmina (11:48.325)
me too. My sleeves.
Lauren (11:48.575)
Yes.
Yes.
Teri (11:51.649)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (11:54.347)
Well, yes, because you're throwing it away anyway. That's such a great idea. Yeah. yay.
Teri (11:55.087)
Bye.
Vanessa (12:08.234)
So what I'm sharing today, I don't think any of us have shared before. And I'm doing this for two reasons. One is Hispanic Heritage Month. And the other is I found this meme about kind of that's related to it, which I'll get to in a second. But my fave today is going to be Bad Bunny. So you may have heard of him. So I have been listening to Bad Bunny for a long time now, way before he became a headline recently.
Wilhelmina (12:27.554)
love it.
Teri (12:29.09)
Mm-hmm
Vanessa (12:37.708)
If you don't know, Bad Bunny is a Puerto Rican singer, rapper, and songwriter. He is actually one of the most streamed artists on Spotify. He's like right under Taylor Swift. So he's very well known globally. But he's a reggaeton musician. Like I love him. His music is, I would say, I mean, that genre in general is just super contagious, super fun. I don't know how you couldn't start swaying, dancing, bopping along after hearing it.
Wilhelmina (12:38.065)
you
Lauren (12:48.641)
See that?
Vanessa (13:05.754)
so if anyone's ever is interested in, know, obviously listen to him, but just that genre in general, it's just so great. So if you're looking to kind of, you know, diversify your, music, love, you can add him. You can add people like Maluma, J Balvin, Cuddle G. These are all great musicians, same genre. we talked about recently when we did our nineties podcast about how, you know, how fun it was to like get a CD and kind of listen to it.
I will say one of the things that I do really like about the way we kind of stream music now is that it like really has opened up people's options and just horizons in general. There's just so much music out there. know, K-pop, we've talked about that, the K-pop Demon Hunters. And one of the cool things about that is that, you know, it's the songs have, some of them are actually all Korean, but some of they have, you know, parts of them are in Korean and, you know, we, we watch that and then we just put on, you know, we go to Pandora and we put K-pop.
Wilhelmina (13:41.597)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (14:00.439)
radio and then you get to listen to all the different musicians that fall into that. So this is a great opportunity to do that too. You can put in Bad Bunny radio station, you'll get his songs, you'll get other musicians who have the same music style. So definitely listen to him. But the other reason why I wanted to share music was I came across this, I shouldn't say meme, I said meme earlier, but it was just some post and they were talking about the benefits of dancing and how they were actually...
Lauren (14:02.539)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (14:25.232)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (14:26.734)
for depression in particular and how they were better than basically other physical activity and even antidepressants. I was like, well, let me do a little research. that information came out of a massive meta, sorry, a massive meta analysis of 218 studies and there was like 14,000 participants and they found that dance led to greater reduction in depressive symptoms more so than other things like walking and yoga, some of the common physical.
physical activities that we recommend. And then also it was five times more effective than SSRIs, which I was like, wow, dancing. Now, caveat, I will say, I don't think the data is like perfect and some of the sample sizes were pretty small. So my takeaway from that is don't stop taking your SSRIs if you're taking them, but sure, go ahead and swap out some yoga for some dancing. I think that's perfectly fine. So my mental health tip is more rhythm, less criticism, some bad bunny therapy.
Wilhelmina (14:59.251)
Mm-mm.
Lauren (15:01.099)
It's gonna say.
Lauren (15:12.513)
Yeah, no.
Vanessa (15:23.542)
anyone who wants them.
Lauren (15:23.573)
I like that.
Wilhelmina (15:25.938)
It makes me think of...
Lauren (15:26.239)
And he's a good, I was going to say he's a good little actor too. My boys loved him in Happy Gilmore 2. He was the favorite. yes, he was very good on that actually. And he was a favorite like little, what do they call them? Like the side characters, character actor. Yeah. Of Happy Gilmore 2.
Teri (15:29.921)
Yes.
Vanessa (15:32.276)
He was on SNL recently. He was so funny.
Teri (15:41.207)
Supporting? yeah. Yeah, my 10 year old little white boy loves Bad Bunny. Like he, and my 10 year old doesn't even speak Spanish. He takes Spanish in school. He does not speak Spanish. And that's what he listens to like probably 50 % of the time if he's in his room on his Alexa. So it's very good music.
Wilhelmina (15:46.579)
Well, it makes me think of the-
Lauren (15:48.981)
Yeah.
Vanessa (15:49.834)
Hahaha
Vanessa (16:02.508)
It is. I can't help but answer it.
Wilhelmina (16:03.463)
It makes me think of the cruise we went on. And remember we went to like the dance party and then it was empty. It was just us. And we were like, is this where the dance party is supposed to be? And I feel like Bad Bunny was playing because I feel like that might've been one of the times that you, some of, one of the artists you mentioned was definitely playing. Cause you definitely talked about it, Vanessa, when we were sitting there. Maluma, what's the other one? Maluma, Maluma. Yeah. And I just.
Lauren (16:06.561)
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Vanessa (16:23.822)
Oh, yeah. Oh, I think. Yeah. I know what you're talking about. Maluma. It's Maluma. Yeah. Oh, I love him. so you so you guys might have if you don't know him by name, but he did a song with The Weeknd called Hawaii that was like super popular on all the radio stations. If you heard it, you'd be like, oh, yeah, yeah. But that's anyway, so he's he's also another well-known artist who's like in that same genre. Yeah. Good music.
Lauren (16:47.509)
Yeah, fun.
Vanessa (16:49.632)
All right, so let's get into our conversation about GLP-1s. I thought it'd be good just to start with some basics. So kind of differentiating like what is a GLP-1 and what are GLP-1s? So a GLP-1 is naturally produced by the gut hormone. So it's released after meals, it helps slow gastric emptying and also reduces apatite. So it's like what our bodies naturally produce.
And GLP-1s activate this GLP-1 receptor. So those are the medications. So when you hear people say GLP-1s, those are the medications. And they were originally created for folks with type 2 diabetes. And so what they happened to find is that these people were losing weight, like a significant amount of weight. And it wasn't because they were dieting or exercising more. It was really just happening kind of naturally using these medications. And so people started using these medications for folks who are obese to lose weight.
see my dog is jumping on me. So I think it's just so fascinating how quickly these medications have become so popular. We see a lot of celebrities talking about them. You see influencers. Well, maybe not all of them talking about them, but definitely using them. And then just people we know in our own circles who have been very open about using them, or maybe some people that we maybe just look like they might be using them.
Lauren (17:43.132)
Hahaha!
Vanessa (18:07.502)
So let's get into our conversation, ladies. What are your thoughts on GLP-1s?
Wilhelmina (18:12.979)
Well, I'm really glad that we're having this conversation now because I feel like we talked about it for a different season earlier. And I think the conversation would have been really different because I know myself, I've gotten more information. Lauren, I know you're going to talk about it too. You've gotten more information, Terry, you as well. And so it is a in the eating disorder world. I went to a conference two years ago and GLP ones were talked about and it was like the devil.
Teri (18:31.563)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (18:41.725)
like in terms of using it, like here's another tool telling us our bodies are bad and like we don't even know these aren't tested. Like it was like all over the conference. So I kind of came away from that being like, no, this is horrible. Like it's great for diabetes, but not for, you know, weight loss. Like this is just another tool to kind of shame people about their bodies. But then as the popularity continued and you started to know more people, I started to see people in my practice.
I have a very dear friend who is on one specifically for weight loss. And what they're saying has made me change my mind about some of the really important benefits. And that involves what almost is reported by everyone is that there's this food noise that has been with them their entire lives around, they're just constantly thinking about it. And food noise is thinking about like,
What am I gonna eat next? What am I gonna have for dinner? What should I, you know, like all of that. On average, for someone who has a healthy relationship with food, food noise makes up maybe 20 % of your day. You know, like you're thinking about breakfast, you're about lunch, dinner, snack, 20%. But someone who is maybe someone who has an eating disorder or just someone who has more increased food noise where they're just thinking about it more and more and more. And this GLP-1,
And almost everyone says it just turns the radio dial down on that food noise, which then allows them to kind of make different food choices, eat less, eat less at a given time. And you're starting to also see then the weight fall off, which is also something that they often are desiring. yeah, Lauren.
Lauren (20:28.619)
So I'm going to mirror what Wilhelmina said, is, I would have spoken very differently about them a year ago, but now I've worked with somebody in my practice that went on them for medical risk factors. And the weight loss was a byproduct for her. It wasn't what we talked about. Her mental health shifted so significantly.
Because as Wilhelmina spoke about the food noise piece, which then, and you know, then we do our research on the psychology end of things. And really what they're talking about is intrusive thoughts. We know what intrusive thoughts are and how detrimental they can be, how they can increase anxiety, increase depression. So when I started to think about that aspect of this treatment and then actually see it in my practice,
Wilhelmina (21:03.517)
Mm hmm. Yep.
Vanessa (21:03.662)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (21:19.873)
It really shifted the way I felt. Now I'm somebody, you're reading that stuff about food noise and I'm going, well, I totally have this more than the average person. I'm somebody that's had to work a lot harder to maintain or lose and shift anything in my body, shift any aspect of my body. And you guys know I've been working my butt off over the last year in a different way on aspects of my body. I can, I can.
Vanessa (21:28.802)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (21:45.857)
Absolutely empathize with this food noise and to see it from a mental health perspective I it completely shifted the way I was thinking about it now I I think we will get into the possible abuses and and problematic aspects on that side of things but I know for my For the client that I worked with the reduction in depression and anxiety symptoms was so significant it shifted her medical plan
Vanessa (22:08.781)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (22:13.867)
for medication related to anxiety and depression. And again, I mean, that's all gonna be worked on with your therapist, your doctor, all those kinds of things, which this individual was beautifully. We were all, her whole treatment team, really surprised by how much it shifted that for this individual. when I say, she didn't even talk about the weight loss. That was probably more than, it was probably tertiary because all of her medical numbers also,
reduced or went into normal ranges or whatever, some of the things that her doctor was looking at. And it really kind of opened my eyes to another aspect of this type of treatment for a whole nother population of people. So I agree with you, Wilhelmina. I'm so glad we're having this conversation now and not last fall, because I personally, I'll be very honest, I think I would have been more judgmental to a larger population of people than I am now. I'm thinking of it in a completely different way.
Wilhelmina (23:08.179)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Lauren (23:14.857)
And it's forced me to look at, for example, what our predecessors probably thought about ADHD, anxiety, depression, that 30 years ago, right? We know that research because we learned about it in school and how cautious and worry and judgmental people were about utilizing medications for that aspect of their psychological functioning.
Wilhelmina (23:24.157)
I was thinking the exact same thing. Yes, yes.
Vanessa (23:25.568)
Okay.
Teri (23:26.563)
No.
Vanessa (23:36.856)
Thank
Lauren (23:42.377)
And so if you sort of enter this group of people into that kind of arena, I wouldn't be surprised if we're speaking about it very differently in another year from now.
Vanessa (23:51.341)
It reminds me of when women who choose to have a natural birth, no medication, and they poo poo the women who have epidurals. That is what came to my mind, that it's like, this is not a competition for who is the toughest out there. And I think that that's part of where criticism comes from some groups, is that, I can do this without that. And it just reminded me of that. And it's like, shouldn't we all be like,
Lauren (23:57.949)
that's a good example. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No.
Wilhelmina (24:01.523)
Yes.
Teri (24:04.07)
huh.
Wilhelmina (24:04.958)
Right.
Wilhelmina (24:12.221)
Yes.
Vanessa (24:20.234)
supporting one another, especially I think women can be women's most like biggest critics, unfortunately, you know, we would be ruling the world like literally ruling the world if we weren't spending a lot of our energy, like looking at each other, right. And I feel like there's enough, you know, outside people kind of, you know, wanting to have us not vote and use our brains. So like, you know, let's spend our energy like, you know, not doing that. But yeah, it just made me think of that. It's like, this is not a competition, you know, everyone needs to do what
Lauren (24:25.439)
the worst.
Lauren (24:30.827)
fighting with each other.
Teri (24:32.599)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (24:48.866)
they need for themselves with their body's need. And one of the things when I was looking at the medication, just learning more about GLP-1s is you talked about food noise, you both did. And that's because this doesn't just affect your stomach, it affects your brain. So there is a component to the brain. having talked to people who are taking GLP-1s, Lauren, you mentioned having to work, some of us have to work really hard to maintain like a...
Wilhelmina (25:00.029)
No. Yes.
Lauren (25:01.259)
Yeah.
Lauren (25:12.929)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (25:13.344)
like a normal weight and, you know, talking to people, you know, women in particular who are now in their, you know, forties and have found, you know, hey, I've been doing the same thing that I've always I'm still working hard, if not even harder. I'm more disciplined now in my forties. Like, you know, I wasn't working out before, you know, in my twenties and I was eating, you know, drinking cokes and, you know, eating french fries, you know, sort of thing. And, you know, as I've gotten older, I've just become more and more.
aware of exercising, eating healthy, and I'm just gaining weight, right? I'm just gaining weight and I find myself craving things that I was able to kind of control, like sweets in particular. And so there is part of this group of people who I think are looking towards JLP ones are people who are in an age range where their hormones are changing, their bodies are changing, and then it's affecting them mentally, right? Imagine like,
Lauren (26:04.021)
mental health.
Vanessa (26:05.748)
you know, you're working so hard, you're doing all the right things. And, you know, the scale keeps going up. I mean, that's, you I mentioned to you guys like, what a mindfuck, right? You're like, my gosh, I'm I'm doing all the things and I'm not getting that. And that starts to take a toll on your mental health, you know, depression, you know, anxiety, all of these things can. So it's not even about being a double zero. Right. This is about a normal, healthy weight or what you're, kind of being in a normal range.
Lauren (26:14.945)
Yeah.
Teri (26:14.975)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (26:32.681)
for your body, for your body.
Vanessa (26:33.816)
For your, right, for your body. Right, exactly. So I think that that is something that's, that, you know, another group of people who are kind of looking towards these things, very much so.
Wilhelmina (26:43.965)
Well, and I, when I was reading how GLP-1s work, it made me think that, you you mentioned anxiety, depression, ADHD, and that some people have deficits in certain hormones, certain, you know, and they do need medication to help feel like just like a baseline, right? And I know this comes up a lot for someone who, I was talking to my husband about it yesterday.
someone who's really struggling with depression, you hit a point where you're like, I think you need medication. And the medication isn't going to do the work for you, but it's gonna give you a chance to implement the skills that are actually going to help. So once you can get to a point where you can actually start doing more of that self care and taking all of the basics, but if you're so depressed, you can't even do that, you're never gonna get out of the hole. Same with ADHD. Like if you need a medication so that you can,
Teri (27:25.485)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (27:42.822)
have the focus to get your stuff done throughout the day, it made me think of a GLP-1 if someone has a deficit of this hormone, which makes me think since we do have, you hear this over and over again, like since my friend said, like she's never not known this, this chatter, this extra chatter. And it kind of is like, this isn't the solution, but this could be one tool in the toolkit to help
just like ADHD medication, just like anxiety, where it's something that can help you then implement the tools that you've been trying to implement, but you've not been able to because the food noise is too loud. But again, if you have a complicated relationship with food that goes beyond that, if you're using food for like in a way where you're overeating or you're restricting or your food noise comes from an eating disorder,
That is where the GLP-1 relationship gets a little bit trickier because then GLP-1 becomes a toolkit for the eating disorder and not for, and it's separate. That's a separate conversation, I think, than some of the stuff that we're talking about. And that's the danger is that people are using it to get rid of the food noise, even though their food noise is caused by restriction or.
Vanessa (28:47.214)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (29:08.713)
food shaming, like taking away certain groups of food, not eating enough food, not eating enough protein, not eating. If they have food noise for those reasons, that's your body saying you should be eating. And so that really becomes the crux of the GLP-1s with eating disorders, where that is scary to me, because I think that people can bypass that and then continue eating the way they're eating. the GLP-1 isn't going to make your eating disorder go away.
In fact, it could only make it worse.
Lauren (29:38.347)
Right. That makes sense. Yeah.
Vanessa (29:38.575)
Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Well, I was looking at the research of how do you get off of this? Or is it something like ADHD where you take it, right? And I think the answer is we don't know yet. We don't know yet. But from the studies that we do have, the people who seem to do well, the best when they're transitioning off, are the people who have really embraced a change in the lifestyle, right? They're working out. They're working on whatever the mental health
Teri (29:41.345)
Yeah, that makes sense.
Wilhelmina (29:51.015)
I think we don't know. We don't know.
Lauren (29:52.231)
there's.
Vanessa (30:07.042)
kind of things are going on for them. They're exercising. So again, this could potentially be a tool to get you where you need to be once you've kind of aligned all those other kind of things that we need to do to be healthier, right? But I don't think we have the answer of whether or not this is something that is gonna be long-term. know that, again, from just even a year ago, I'm hearing things like, you know,
being very aware of the dosage, right? There's different dosages that do different things. There's microdosing out, right? Right, the faster, right? But then also being aware of somebody who needs to lose 200 pounds versus somebody who maybe has 20 pounds to lose, right? I think even providers are being more aware of you don't need to give the higher dose maybe to somebody who doesn't have, you
Wilhelmina (30:35.421)
Yes, higher the doughs, higher the doughs, the more like faster these things. Yes.
Vanessa (30:55.54)
so much. And then also I've heard people talk about microdosing, right, to help them kind of just take the edge off of that, right, because they're doing, they're able to do all the other things that they need to do. So I think we're still learning a lot about kind of how these things are going to be used and then what happens down the road. I don't know that we have the answer yet, but I think it's really important that we know, we think of this as a tool out of, you know, a tool, right, right. This is not going to be an answer.
Wilhelmina (31:20.571)
A tool, one tool, yes.
Vanessa (31:24.354)
to anything for anyone, right? This is just another tool in the toolbox.
Teri (31:28.201)
And that's an important piece. No, go ahead.
Wilhelmina (31:28.957)
I think a lot of the data does, you go, Terry, you go. I was gonna say, I...
Lauren (31:36.363)
tear your up.
Vanessa (31:36.75)
Yes, there you go.
Teri (31:37.769)
So the I'm seeing a fair amount of teenagers and young adults who who have started on GLP ones. It is FDA approved going down to age 12. And so there are a fair amount of people I've been seeing for evaluations in my office over the last one to two years, who is been as we've all echoed, life changing. I have an extended family member who has been on one and again reports very similarly. It's
Wilhelmina (31:47.401)
Hmm.
Vanessa (31:52.11)
Thank
Teri (32:07.053)
downplayed all the food noise. It's been amazing. It's been life-changing. Thinking about this as a tool in the toolbox, I think about what is the exit ramp if there is one for the teenagers and young adults that I'm working with who are currently on one. There are currently clinical trials for FDA approval going down to age six. So, Lurie Children's Hospital here in Chicago,
Vanessa (32:21.966)
Yeah.
Teri (32:30.435)
is currently has several active research trials that you can enroll your children on based on, it has to be a pediatrician referred. Children who either have type, who already at risk for type two diabetes, who, depending on what their weight category is in. So they are, there is a likelihood that going down to age six will be on the horizon for GLP-1s. Currently it's age 12 and up. I think about what is the exit ramp for somebody who starts on a GLP-1 at age 14 or 15.
Vanessa (32:57.41)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (32:58.243)
It's different for my family member who's 60, right, or a 45 year old woman versus someone who's 15 or 16. So I think about that as well when I'm encountering in my clinical practice, what that's going to look like for people depending on what age and stage of life, what tools are they learning so there could be if their desires to be an exit, maybe there doesn't need to be an exit ramp. I don't know. Right.
Vanessa (33:02.094)
Absolutely.
Vanessa (33:19.298)
Right, I think we don't know about that, right? But yeah.
Lauren (33:19.489)
was going to say, I don't think we know and you use the word tools and I think that's exactly, we always talk in our practice about when families are a little bit concerned or skittish about utilizing ADHD medication. We always talk about how it's not a magic wand or they'll say things like, I don't want it to be a crutch for my child. It's not, it's a tool. It's not going to do their homework for them. It'll clear the fog and allow them increased ability to sustain their focus.
Wilhelmina (33:33.037)
huh. Yes.
Wilhelmina (33:42.781)
Yes.
Yes.
Lauren (33:49.483)
for sitting down to do their homework, but they still have to actually do the homework, right? So I think that's a helpful way of thinking about, and hopefully medical professionals are having these kinds of conversations with parents. I know you're talking about young adults, so that doesn't necessarily have to happen, but like, we just have to have these conversations of like, this isn't going to necessarily do the long-term work. And there are so many other tools that are available.
Teri (33:50.733)
to sit here. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (33:52.637)
Yes.
Lauren (34:18.497)
for those that maybe were worried are gonna become dependent upon it or something, right? So it's gotta just be a tool in the toolbox.
Wilhelmina (34:27.709)
Well, and I do think, I mean, we do not know long-term what this looks like. I do think from what I'm hearing is that when people get off it, weight comes back on, food noise returns. That's kind of what is being, because there are people where the GLP-1 doesn't work for them, doesn't work for their body. They either get upset stomachs, things like that. It just doesn't work.
Vanessa (34:41.974)
you.
Lauren (34:42.453)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (34:44.61)
Yes.
Teri (34:45.133)
Makes sense.
Vanessa (34:50.2)
Yeah, lots of side effects.
Wilhelmina (34:52.905)
There is also usually a honeymoon period where it works right away. And then sometimes, oftentimes actually, the weight lost plateaus. So you either need to kind go up a little bit or if that's what you're on it for. And so there is sort of a point of like, is there a point where it's just gonna kind of, you'd either just have to keep going up and up and up. But I do think there is a lot right now, a lot of data pointing to if you get off of it, you do return to what was.
Vanessa (35:03.662)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (35:22.853)
So that is something to consider. And again, Terry, like you said, someone who is 60 and is like, okay, I'll be on this for the rest of my life. Maybe that's fine, right? Like who cares? And here, there are people on depression medication or anxiety medication, bipolar. Like they are on meds for the rest of their life. like ADHD, right, exactly. These are not, ADHD is a perfect example, because it doesn't go away. It's not like you grow out of your ADHD. So.
Lauren (35:26.198)
Yeah.
Lauren (35:32.278)
Yeah.
Vanessa (35:40.758)
ADHD. mean, yeah.
Teri (35:41.858)
Bye.
Wilhelmina (35:50.214)
There are probably aspects where GLP-1 potentially is necessary, but then the longer you use something, we don't know what that looks like for your body. We don't know. And then as we've all talked about, the potential for abuse in certain populations becomes more and more and more. And then what does that look like psychologically, physically? And how do you treat it? Yeah.
Teri (36:14.051)
And how do you treat that?
Vanessa (36:15.542)
Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, I think leaning into what you're saying, Wilhelmina, is that I think the use of them will really depend on why are you using them, right? so I think there's just so many different groups who are using these medications. And so I really think that it's going to, at some point, boil down to why are you using this, right? So if we're saying that your body isn't able to regulate itself,
Teri (36:18.177)
I should that.
Lauren (36:18.229)
whole nother round of treatment.
Wilhelmina (36:27.613)
Yes.
Lauren (36:28.223)
Yeah, why?
Vanessa (36:42.614)
right, like it's a physical, it's a medical condition, then maybe those people will be on it long term. If we're saying this is hormonal, right, and you know, like your body needs help regulating this hormone, right, then you would also be on it long term. So I think part of that will kind of depend on who's taking it and for what reason. One of the things that I think about, especially when I see people, you know,
who I wonder why they're taking one. I say that, you you never know what someone's story is. And I very much try to avoid making assumptions about people. But I can think of this celebrity who's always been very thin, who came out recently saying they're taking one, like, recently started taking one. And I couldn't quite figure I was like, well, why? Like, I just could not compute in my brain like you've always been, you know, now you're taking what they say.
Wilhelmina (37:12.243)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (37:35.369)
Who is it?
Teri (37:35.597)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (37:37.198)
I don't want to say, but yeah, it's a celebrity. Yeah, I'll tell you later. And so, you know, it's a celebrity. And so, you know, I'm looking at this person and thinking like, why are you doing that? You know, and so, you know, I just, I definitely think that.
Wilhelmina (37:38.503)
Okay. Tell us later.
Teri (37:49.923)
Well, did you, have you seen Mandy Moore, those pictures that have gone around where she looks like a different person and there's a lot of speculation that it's because she dropped, she's like, it's sort of when there's such rapid weight loss, even if you're already on the thin side, you are going to have more sunken in features, you look more gaunt and that's the elephant in the room, Vanessa, right?
Wilhelmina (37:55.269)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.
Vanessa (37:57.848)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (38:09.17)
You
Vanessa (38:12.204)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (38:12.499)
gaunt.
Vanessa (38:18.054)
Yeah, yeah, like you don't want to ask, don't like, you don't want to make assumptions about people like what if she's ill? what you know, like, could you imagine you're assuming this woman's and she's like, I have cancer, like, well, I feel like an asshole now like, like, you just don't know.
Wilhelmina (38:18.525)
Yes.
Teri (38:20.083)
Yes.
Lauren (38:24.064)
Right.
Teri (38:24.171)
Right, right, right. Well, well, and I will, yes. And I've personally experienced over the last one to two years, seen people drop weight and look quickly and look significantly different. And do you comment on it or not? Because there are aspects of
Lauren (38:29.461)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (38:45.779)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (38:47.915)
strategies or methods that especially us women will self-impose, we will do to ourselves, we will dye our hair, we'll whiten our teeth, get Botox, fill in the blank. And some we have no problem owning and being very open about it, plastic surgery, et cetera. And then there's a whole list of things that we are not very open about. And do you comment and say, my gosh, you look fantastic.
fantastic. You've clearly dropped a significant amount of weight in a very short period of time. I've been erring on the side of not saying anything. Yeah, I don't know. What are your guys' thoughts?
Wilhelmina (39:26.569)
Well, as a therapist working with eating disorders, I avoid that comment or any comment about weight or body size, like completely. People in my life know that. I've had, in fact, the friend who is on a GOP-1, we have had a very lengthy conversation. And it's so funny, because every time we talk about it, I'm like, I...
think you look amazing. I think you look great. I said, I think you've always looked great. I think you are a beautiful person inside and out. And like the weight, but I said, I know this is a journey for you and I know it's something you're working on and that's huge. And so I think that's amazing. But like, I very much give this like well-rounded like full and she like laughs. She's like, I know, I get it. I don't comment on people's weight. I don't say, wow, you look great. You know, you've lost weight. You look great. Which implies the
Lauren (40:00.641)
It's tough.
Teri (40:23.895)
You didn't
Wilhelmina (40:24.381)
didn't look great before, right. That's the issue. And trust, and believe me, if someone has a problem with food, if they have an eating disorder, if they just have overall negative body image, they are for sure thinking that on some level, like everyone. there is, I know that my friend, when she gets complimented now, because she is being, people are noticing that she's lost weight,
Lauren (40:26.101)
That's the problem, right? That it implies something.
Vanessa (40:27.235)
Right, yeah.
Wilhelmina (40:53.641)
she feels a little bit of a mix of like, I don't really want know what to say because she's like, I can of course just tell her like, say thank you. We were just talking about how we are horrible at accepting compliments. I'm like, you don't have to tell them. Thank you, thank you, that's it. Yeah, but she's like, do I say that I'm on this? Cause she's like, I don't want them to think I'm cheating or like whatever. And I was like, why are we thinking that this is cheating? And she said,
Lauren (41:03.349)
Yeah, just accepting a couple.
Teri (41:05.175)
Just say thank you hard stop, right?
Vanessa (41:07.586)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (41:09.653)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (41:23.621)
most of the people who think that GLP ones are cheating, she's like, my friend, this is a direct quote, she's like, are just skinny, skinny people and they've always been skinny. So they somehow think this is the, you're cheating if you're doing it. And so I thought that was interesting too. I was like, okay. So she, she doesn't even necessarily like when people talk about it. And so that was just more kind of for me of like, okay, I don't already do this. I'm not gonna start doing this.
If it's a close friend, you have a top conversation, right? If it's not someone that you're close with, maybe you don't say anything.
Vanessa (42:01.273)
I mean, I tell my daughter, we don't talk about people's bodies, appearances, home. I mean, the list goes on and on. you know.
Teri (42:07.867)
The rule of thumb is unless it's something they can change within five minutes, food in the teeth, shirt is tucked in, weird, whatever. If it's something they can change immediately, yes. If it's something they can change within five minutes, you can comment on it, is what I tell my kids. Otherwise, it is off the table. But we, as women, we do comment on certain things though. We comment a ton on hair.
Lauren (42:18.251)
zipper is down. Right.
Vanessa (42:19.181)
Yeah.
Lauren (42:28.811)
Well, I-
Wilhelmina (42:29.312)
yeah, all the time.
Vanessa (42:29.806)
I mean, I said earlier, we are, you know, like I said, we're our harshest critics, but I also think part of that has to do with commenting about other people and what they look like and what they're doing.
Teri (42:38.775)
Yes.
Lauren (42:41.985)
I've had so I mean, as you guys know, I've been on a journey this past like year with my body and just doing trying to figure different things out. And it started from a very different place than this conversation. It started with my dad had last summer. He had a situation with his heart and it really he's like an incredibly healthy person in terms of exercise. Always. My parents have always like maintained a very healthy Mediterranean kind of fresh food diet. We just
genetically have heart stuff in our family. And it really kind of changed the way I thought about health and wellness and getting older. cut to, I've been really, I made some changes in just my approach to my diet. I didn't realize how much sodium I was consuming. And that was a big thing in his health journey and the heart, the actual work he did with a nutritionist and a dietician on heart health. But anyway,
Wilhelmina (43:13.37)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (43:40.457)
I started a lot of strength training and I've had people comment regularly on what are you doing? I look at your arms and on the one hand, I'm very proud of that. I've worked my ass off for the arms that like, and for like, I've really worked hard and I've fallen in love with it. I'm doing it. I feel like for all the right reasons. On the other hand, it makes me uncomfortable when I ask only because I sometimes question, can I maintain this?
Vanessa (43:59.855)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (44:06.985)
see? Yeah. Yes. Yes.
Vanessa (44:07.928)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (44:08.961)
I wonder when you're talking about your friend and that like it does make me of like on the one hand I love what I'm doing for myself and for my family and those were those were the reasons I really started it. But on the other hand it is a fear and anxiety of like can I maintain it though?
Wilhelmina (44:24.219)
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.
Vanessa (44:26.094)
Right.
Wilhelmina (44:28.177)
Well, and Lauren, we've talked about your arms in text chats. We've been like, my gosh, Lauren, your arms look great. And that actually is an interesting thing I was going to say. I was like, if you know intimately a person and what their journey is, then I think you can, I mean, it feels very different. yeah, cause like, Lauren, know how, right. We know how.
Lauren (44:30.753)
Yeah.
Lauren (44:45.921)
It feels very different. When you guys, yeah. Yeah. I'm like, Oh, I'm peloton right. Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (44:52.785)
My friend Erica, I know what she's doing. So when I say this, it's coming from all of these other places. But if you're just like, know this person as an acquaintance and you're seeing them at school, pick up or drop off, maybe that's where you're like, I'm not gonna say anything, because I don't know this person. I don't know their journey. I don't know their like thing. But Lauren, that's so interesting that you say that. Like it's this pressure of like, what if something changes? And then.
Lauren (45:01.478)
Vanessa (45:05.228)
Yeah. Yeah. Great. Why they're doing that.
Lauren (45:05.249)
Yeah, right. Right. Right.
Lauren (45:14.155)
What if I can't mean? Yeah, yeah. And it's not like I wouldn't be proud of the journey I've been on. It is more of just like a, yeah, like an initial discomfort of like, yeah, can we maintain these things that well, I'm sure people feel the same way. Like when people are commenting, like, you look like your face looks really fresh. Like if they've just finished Botox or whatever, they're like, shit, so I didn't look fresh last week. Like you just have that like same.
Wilhelmina (45:24.701)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (45:35.266)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (45:35.443)
Yes.
I look very Haggard.
Lauren (45:41.727)
You have that same feeling of like, did I look like last week when nobody said anything about how I looked? So I just, mean, I think it's very natural. We all have these insecurities and to go back to, I believe what Terry and Wilhelmina were both kind of commenting on about them, the concern is why are people utilizing the medication? What's their why? And then you can kind of figure out if it's appropriate or not and how long and what they're, you know.
sort of goals are if they are clear about their why.
Wilhelmina (46:15.367)
And maybe as we keep talking about GLP-1 and in the way that we are talking about it now, it will release the shame around it. And so then it can be something that people talk about. Like, hey, I got on GLP-1, it's really changed my food noise. I'm able to like, it's made making my food choices easier. It's been great. But now I feel like there is just this mixed bag that people aren't, they're not as willing to just talk about it.
Vanessa (46:26.274)
Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (46:34.763)
It's been great or whatever, yeah.
Wilhelmina (46:44.677)
And so I do think just like anything else, we keep the conversation going. We get curious, not judgmental. It becomes a different conversation.
Teri (46:55.375)
I know we have to wrap up, in researching for today's episode, I came across a New York Times article about, they called it Ozempic etiquette, like Ozempic etiquette or some cutesy name. They said where it shows up most is when you're at group dinners in a group setting and your companions, if it's not open knowledge, common knowledge that they're on a GLP-1 will not eat as much. The person's takeaway was as long as we all still split the bill evenly,
Vanessa (47:04.426)
Mm.
Lauren (47:04.447)
f-
Wilhelmina (47:04.585)
Ooh.
Wilhelmina (47:11.369)
interesting.
Lauren (47:13.857)
Don't eat.
Wilhelmina (47:21.385)
Mm.
Teri (47:24.161)
were fine with that. They said, but that is where it really starts to be more glaring is when you are in a group dinner setting and other people might not want to share two or three appetizers. There's appetite might just not be there and order an entree. So yeah, that that was funny.
Vanessa (47:24.495)
Hahaha!
Lauren (47:27.701)
Perfect etiquette.
Wilhelmina (47:38.43)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (47:38.7)
That's funny. I like that.
Wilhelmina (47:42.845)
That is interesting.
Lauren (47:44.04)
Ending on a light note.
Vanessa (47:44.366)
Well, was a good conversation. I'm sure we'll, I imagine that we'll have another episode down the road, maybe a year from now, maybe two years from now when we know more about long-term use. There's all these medications, variations coming out of the GLP ones. Now there's ones that are being created specifically for weight loss, not using the ones that were originally for type one diabetes, type two diabetes, So yeah, so I think this conversation is gonna be continuing.
Well, thank you, ladies, and thanks everyone for listening to the Shrinkdown. Please join us next time.