Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Welcome to The Anti-Racism Leadership Institute, where we engage in thoughtful conversations with professors and visionary leaders who are dedicated to dismantling racism in schools and transforming education. Join us as we explore their inspiring journeys, innovative strategies, and impactful initiatives aimed at creating more inclusive, equitable, and anti-racist learning environments. Our podcast is a platform for sharing insights, stories, and actionable ideas that can help shape a brighter, more just future for education. Tune in and be inspired to be a part of the change!
Welcome to the Anti-Racism Leadership
Institute Research to Practice podcast.
Today we have the
opportunity to talk with Dr.
Queeley about anti black
racism in the helping field.
Dr.
Queeley is an associate professor
at Florida International University
and author of the book Rescuing Our
Roots, the African Anglo Caribbean
Diaspora in Contemporary Cuba.
Let's listen in.
Welcome, Dr.
Queeley.
Good morning.
I'm so happy that you've
chosen to spend time with us.
I know that you're traveling,
but you've pocketed out time this
morning to have a conversation.
I really appreciate you spending
time with us here today.
Yeah.
Thank you for having me.
I'm really looking forward to it.
So, for our listeners if
you don't already know Dr.
Queeley, I'd like to give her an
opportunity to introduce herself
so you understand who she is,
her background and what she does.
Well, let's see.
I can start off by saying that I am from
California, Northern California, Bay Area.
I'm a cultural anthropologist,
so I have a Ph.
D.
in cultural anthropology, and I am
currently an associate professor
of anthropology at Florida
International University, and I'm
in the Global and Sociocultural
Studies Department in the African
and African Diaspora Studies Program.
So I have a joint appointment
in those two units.
And my research focuses on
anti-blackness in the Americas.
So I have done projects in the U.
S.
as well as Latin America.
My monograph is on research that I did
on English speaking Caribbean migration
to Cuba and community building in Cuba.
And I'm working on a number
of different projects.
But the focus really of my work
is understanding the politics and
repercussions of anti-blackness globally.
Wow yes, mouthful.
A lot of, a lot of good work.
You can find her book on
Amazon and many other places.
If you just Google Dr.
Andrea Queeley, she has a presence
online and her book is awesome.
And so for those who are listening,
these are mostly educators.
Our podcast is made for educators.
Of course, you don't have to be
an educator to listen to the Anti
Racist Leadership Institute podcast.
And it's also about linking research
to practice in the field of education.
So to begin with for everyone who's
listening how did you come to this work?
What made you decide to start looking
into and studying anti-blackness?
Wow.
Let's see.
So, so coming into this work,
how did I come into this work?
That is a long, it's been a long
road, which I won't go into all
the details of, but I will start
off by saying that the ethic in my
family was really one of service.
And so my mother was a social worker.
My father was a physician.
It was familiar to lift as we climb
and as black people to be of service
and to be aware of the ways that
inequities impact us in particular.
So, so that's the, the broader
kind of general answer.
And then also there's a facet
of my work that really is about
celebrating black cultures.
Understanding the multiplicity of black
culture, to understand that there are many
different stories that are held within
this quote unquote, black experience.
And that was valued, particularly
by my mother, and something that was
instilled in us from a young age.
Wonderful.
And so, when you made the decision,
because what's interesting is
my parents are both educators.
My mother was a counselor.
My father was a special education
teacher, And they insisted on
working in Milwaukee public schools.
They didn't go suburban schools
or private schools and just the
conversations they would have with me.
They didn't necessarily say racism,
structural anti-blackness, but
it was a message of inequity.
So when you went into the field,
I understand that you were a
practitioner for quite some time
and then transitioned to academia.
Talk to me about your experience
in the field and what made
you transition to academia.
Yeah.
So I started off majoring in psychology.
I was really interested in in psychology.
And I ended up taking black studies
courses as a way to as a kind of
a lifeline within the context of a
predominantly white institution that I
found to be oppressive in certain ways,
and it just felt very disconnecting.
And so I found a home in black studies.
And and then from there, I actually
ended up working in community
mental health in the San Francisco
Bay area for several years.
And so that was my job that I, with
the way that I supported myself,
but I was also studying capoeira,
studying Afro Haitian dance.
I was very a part of this movement that
was really celebrating and exploring
African diasporic cultures and the kind
of cultural practices across diaspora.
So that was all happening at the
same time that I was doing my
community mental health work.
And what happened is that I realized
that I wanted to go to grad school
to study cultural anthropology
because the people that I was most
interested in and drawn to were, Zora
Neale Hurston and Katherine Dunham.
And they were anthropologists.
And so even though I hadn't taken an
anthropology class as an undergraduate,
I decided, I want to learn more about
this thing called anthropology and so
when I studied more and realized that
this is really what I wanted to do,
that's when I decided that I was going
to go to graduate school in anthropology,
but I realized that the tools that we
had to participate and support people
in their healing process from crises
from serious mental health crises.
And for much of that time, yeah.
I was actually a dual diagnosis counselor.
So I was working with people
who had a substance abuse as
well as mental health diagnoses.
And so, and many of them, not
all of them, it was a very,
it was San Francisco Bay Area.
So it was, very racially
mixed populations.
But I, I really came to understand that
the tools that I was taught and that I,
was taught in undergrad and that I learned
on the job were really insufficient in
Healing what was really the underlying
issues for people's mental disturbance
and their, their mental health challenges.
So that's when I decided oh, okay, I think
I feel like culture is the answer, you
know, in my naive, 20-something brain,
that, that, there was something there
because I was also really interested
in African spirituality and exploring.
African spirituality in
religions in the in the Americas.
And so I had this idea that, I
think there's something there in
terms of healing people's mental
health challenges, mental illnesses
through their cultural resources.
Let's talk, let's talk about that.
So the concept of anti-blackness
in the helping fields yeah, I
understand that you're in your family
of a doctor, a social worker, you
were in a community mental health.
First, before we get
into how it manifests.
Because, education is a,
is a helping field, right?
And anti-blackness is a source of
sort of a barrier for many black
students in public education.
But let's start with a definition
for folks, so folks can
clearly understand what it is.
So what is anti-blackness?
So simply it's racism
against black people, right?
I think that's probably the most succinct
way to describe or define anti-blackness.
It's usefulness, though, is that it
really sheds a light on the specificity
of a black experience, a global black
experience, and the particular ways
in which the attitudes, beliefs, and
behaviors about black people that are
really embedded into Western culture.
That those.
In some cases define and have have a
significant impact on the human beings
who are racialized as black and actually
not just us, but, but, larger society that
that those beliefs impact and manifest
themselves in very particular ways.
So there, so there's, there's
a specific experience, right?
Of way that white supremacy has
and, Impacted people who are
racialized as black understanding.
And obviously, blackness and
whiteness are products of this, way of
organizing human beings that developed.
Yeah, so let me, let me ask you a
specific question to do with the
education field, because this is
something that's controversial, and of
course, I don't believe in, but I think
this concept of anti-blackness, folks
are like, you know, it's not a thing
that they're bringing race into it.
These communities, whether it's community,
other community, non Black communities
of color or, or Black communities that
if you just work hard enough and you
stop, being delinquent and, have more
fathers in the home that you would
have better lifetime outcomes and not
understand the nuances of the sort of
the cocoon of the helping fields, right?
It's medicine.
It's in social work.
It's in schools.
It's in it's all around us for particular
manifestations, what does it look like?
How would someone begin to understand
that it is a part of a system?
That's such a great question, Tracey.
It's like, because it, you know,
some of the limitations, right?
In the ways the approaches that we
often take to dismantling racism,
identifying it is that a there's not
really a systemic analysis and then we
don't get into the very insidious ways
that it impacts people's life chances.
And so, one of the ways that
I want to illustrate this is
through a very personal example.
And it really gets to how anti-blackness
is global, how there is, in the United
States, in a country with a large
immigrant population we also are dealing
with the ways that anti-blackness
manifests itself outside of this country
and then it's brought in with immigrants.
And so there's a there's this kind
of conversations that are happening
across regions through the processes of
immigration, which is also one of my areas
of research interest and specialization.
So, I know the story is going
to be long, so I want you to
just can we have a conversation?
You can just interject and
ask me questions about it.
And because I don't want to just.
But let me just try and be succinct.
So I live in Miami.
I have a now three year old.
When this incident happened, this
was almost a year ago, he was two.
And and so, and I live in a
neighborhood that is probably now
upper middle class and and wealthy.
And a lot of the parents in the
neighborhood send their kids to
these, preschools, private preschools
in, in the immediate vicinity.
During Black History Month last year,
one of the preschools was, it was
discovered, actually, they posted online
that they, the children in blackface.
So they, one of the teachers, as
part of black history month, had
decided that she was going to put
the the children in blackface and
put them in different costumes.
So they were, you
Are these already black children or?
No, no, no, no, these
are not black children.
These are white presenting white Latinos
or they're, they're not black children.
My friend and neighbor, actually,
who's, she's black, she's African
American, and her husband is
Greek, and they have two children.
She had her children in that, or one
of her children, one of her, I think
her oldest child in that school.
She wasn't in the school that,
he wasn't in the school that day.
Anyway, she finds out about
this blackface incident.
Goes to the director,
says, this is a problem.
Why are you having children in blackface?
The director, who's from Argentina is very
defensive, says, "no, what's the problem?
You're the one who's being racist."
We don't use these words,
meaning the word racism.
So the response was not,
how do we discuss this?
What is your experience as
a black woman of racism?
And why do you see this?
This teacher putting children in blackface
to be racist and to be a problem.
There was no open dialogue.
So what that tells me is that that
director actually did not, she was
not coming with a blank slate, right?
So that, meaning that she wasn't
coming to the exchange with a
blank slate around blackness.
So there are particular ideas about
blackness in Argentina and South America
and in Latin America that informed both
her reading of what her teacher did,
by putting the children in blackface,
as well as the response that a black
woman, mother, parent had around it.
Yeah let me pause you there
because I want to ask two
questions as a part of the story.
In our work in anti-racism in
education that we often see a lot
of well intentioned anti-blackness.
"I didn't know any better."
we just had a case a week ago
where there was a white, young
white teacher in a school.
It was the holidays and she wanted
to bring in a Santa Claus and Mrs.
Claus.
This is in Florida.
For the students who experienced
in an elementary school.
This school is 95 percent black and she
brought in a white Santa and a white Mrs.
Santa Claus to this space.
And the school director is black.
Most of the teachers are black.
And you have this white teacher
and the black teachers and leader
were all like incensed that
how could you not understand?
Right.
This is a black community and it would
be better to have a Santa that reflected,
this is a fictional character, population.
Well intentioned anti-black because
even this fictional characters
are depicted as white people.
And she didn't have that.
Her intent was there, but she didn't
understand the context of where she was.
And so with this teacher and
I'm and it's gonna be a stretch.
This teacher who brought in
these this this activity to
put students in blackface.
What do you think?
She was thinking in terms of, she probably
thought she was doing something good?
Yes!
So that's such a great question.
This is, this is, this is gets to the
why it is so important to talk about
anti-blackness because they're very again
particular ways in which it manifests
itself because of the, historical context.
So the historical context is that there
is blackface in the United States.
It was used to justify all kinds of
insidious, treacherous treatment.
So that the images, and this gets to this
question of representation, the images
were, and the performance of Blackness,
is something that still is with us.
It's a very, it was
foundational to this country.
But what we have to understand is
that it was not just a U.S phenomenon
that they had blackface in Cuba.
They had blackface in Argentina, they
had blackface throughout Latin America.
It was a very popular
form of entertainment.
And so the idea that this is
something that is just a U.S.
phenomenon, or, or even that this is a
lens that the critique of it is something
that is culturally specific to the U.
S.
really silences the voices of those.
Non white Latin Americans,
particularly Afro Latin Americans
who are not in agreement with these
representations of themselves,
who have struggled for centuries
to be considered equal.
So, so the idea of being represented
and, as buffoons as ugly.
All of these, these things, and
this is something that, you've
traveled throughout Latin America.
You go to tourist shops, you go to
these shops, you see the images of these
mammy dolls, the pitch black face, the
figurines with the pitch black faces and
the red, bright red lips and the bandanas
and the over voluptuous, the gigantic
enormous behinds, you know, exactly the
figurines that I'm talking about in there.
And for those who aren't familiar,
who haven't traveled, when we think
back, I'm in my mid forties, right?
I'm thinking about what we were
exposed to through cartoons.
I remember in Bugs Bunny, they
would have that old mammy character.
You would never see her face, but
voluptuous, big, big rear end,
was in sandals, this mammy voice.
Aunt Jemima is another caricature, right?
Overblown, accentuated
features, buffoonery.
And that's the harm of blackface
because it's meant to mock, meant
to make a mockery of black life
as people who are unintelligent.
And so with this teacher, I don't
think that was her intention.
So I'm going to ask again what
do you think her intention was?
Yes, so the, so yes, those, the mockery,
it's, to understand the historical context
in which these images came out, that there
weren't just, because you could say, oh,
again, the unintentional anti-blackness,
"oh, well, it's just making fun of we
make fun of all kinds of different groups.
So what's the big deal?"
Well, you have to understand that
these images actually came out
in defense of slavery, right?
These images came out in
defense of lynching or to
justify to motivate to lynching.
So they're, they're not neutral
again, they're not, it's
not just like fun and games.
So, but going back to our Argentinian
teacher was her intention to be,
quote unquote racist or to promote
a negative image of black people,
not consciously, most likely.
I don't, I don't know.
I don't know her.
I don't think that was
her intention though.
But what it is, is that the way of
neglecting of teaching history, the
way of neglecting teaching, not just
history, but the reliance of one's
own self concept, racial self concept
on the subjugation of blackness is
something that is not spoken of, right?
It's not, people are
not made aware of that.
It's very much suppressed.
And so that's why you can go
through your life ingesting.
We all do it, right?
We ingest these images.
We ingest these ideas unconsciously,
and then they have their impact
on the way that we behave in
the decisions that we make.
So I think that the, the anti-blackness
itself ideas, and when I say
anti-blackness, when we're talking
about specifically here is the
linking of blackness with inferiority.
So inferiority, intellectual
inferiority, aesthetic inferiority,
not athletic inferiority.
Because that's, that's the other
thing that's really interesting about
anti-blackness is that, You see how a
belief in black physical superiority
an athletic superiority is yoked with
a belief in intellectual inferiority.
Why has it taken so long to have black,
black head coaches, black quarterbacks?
And we talked about US football.
So I want to place, I know that
your son and my daughter are
around the same age, right?
And if I was, had a child in
that class, Oh my goodness.
But in also being an educator and a
former principal that we did have racist
things that happened in our school
building that I was approached about
as the black principal, but my depth of
knowledge around racism is a, it might
be a little bit more just because my
phenotype and I choose to study racism
that when I'm approached about an issue,
I might react differently to a black
parent, a Latinx parent, an Asian parent.
And so this principle that you talk about
that got defensive over it, if you had
to put yourself in their shoes, and this
is for our listeners because we often
have principals and superintendents
that end up out of a job because they
respond poorly, they respond defensively,
they immediately go into defense mode,
"It's okay" and try to deny.
And that's the worst thing
you should do, right?
So I'm gonna put your little boy
in that classroom and you're going
in as a parent, and then also
think about coaching the principal
about how to appropriately respond,
I'm so glad you brought that up.
So how do you coach a principal
who might not have the depth of
knowledge around racism with a black
parent who comes in with a very
real issue around anti-Blackness?
That is such a brilliant question.
And it's such an important
point because I saw this.
Initially, of course, I was
upset and then what really as
it unfolded because double down.
And what really struck me is that
it's just to think, wow, as the
director of this preschool if a
parent comes to you and says, "this
is really troubling, this is racist,
what this activity was, was racist.
And and I'm disturbed by it."
Come with an open mind.
Okay.
So in other words, listen, it's
a really basic listen to and
let this parent know that you're
hearing them, that you're curious.
Because maybe it's not offensive to you.
As we said, in Argentina, there are
Argentinians who would be offended
by it, but she's not one of them.
And there's probably a larger kind of
dominant cultural ethos around it, not
recognizing or not interpreting that
kind of that practice, the practice
of blackface to be at all offensive.
As somebody who grew up in the
United States, if I am living in a
foreign country and I'm working in
a foreign country and somebody who's
from there comes up to me and says
something that I did was offensive.
What I would do whether or not I'm an
educator or just me, in my capacity as
an educator or not, I would be curious.
And so that was one of the
things that really struck me.
I think that in talking to educators about
this, whether or not they're from other
countries or they're from the US or what
is to really be curious about your parents
and your children's experience, because
that will broaden your, the depth of your
knowledge and you're also capacity to meet
families where they are and really achieve
the goals of educating the whole student.
The whole person.
And so I felt like that was such
a moment, that was such a loss.
And of an opportunity to actually
engage with my neighbor and friend
around why is it that this was
offensive to black Americans and
to other because it wasn't just
offensive to my black American friend.
It was also offensive to some of the
other parents in the school who took
their children out of the school.
Simply profound, right?
It's simply profound.
We just have to listen and try to
understand and seek to understand
why and not immediately deny.
But often folks, fragility get in the way.
"Are you calling me racist?
Are you calling the teacher racist?"
They get into sort of,
they personalize it.
"Are you calling me?"
I'm like, I'm not calling you, but
what you did has a significant impact.
Impact on it's not just the students
in there, not just the black
students, but all students about this
ingesting of anti-blackness as okay.
And so say that I'm gonna
take us down one level deeper.
Because all is not lost.
The parent comes in the head of school
or principal reacts poorly in the moment.
The parent is not satisfied.
They go home.
The director then reflects after a
conversation with the teacher is like,
"Oh, yes, I did actually screw up.
And also, I was defensive
when that parent came in."
Mhmm
Because this is often how
we end up then in the paper.
It was in the paper.
It was on CNN.
It was in all the local news.
Yes.
You mess up your defensive, but then
you realize that you made a mistake
and then you have to like triple down
and say, I'm just not going to fix it.
But the best advice is to then fix it.
So how do you then do the repair
after you know that initially?
Because, often you're sitting in your
office, you one day it's just like
the next, and you get this out of left
field, like this happened, you're not
prepared, maybe you're defensive, but
when you understand and you actually
reflect and realize that, oh, I did make
a mistake, what then is the repair after
you've already rebuffed the parent?
Yes.
So, call the parent back in with the
teacher, because I think that having
those kinds of conversations one on one
can really do a lot to heal or repair
in order to have that conversation be
productive however, you yourself as
the director, as the principal, need to
educate yourself about what the issue is.
And you're not necessarily gonna be
able to do that in a week, right?
Or in the short amount
of time that you have.
So you bring in people who
are actually doing this work.
So, in other words, so, for example,
I mentioned that this was, this
was on a local news story, and
then it got picked up by CNN.
So there were people who were
interviewed myself, just being 1 of them.
Who actually do this work, who
understand what the issue issues
are and why this is problematic.
So as a director, as the principal,
you go and you find those people, you
can just look at the news stories.
And then you contact them and say,
"look, I know that this was a problem.
Can you please help me with this?"
And then bring in those experts
who actually have knowledge
of the intricacies, right?
And are also going to perhaps know how
to approach the situation, not from a
position of blame and shame, but again,
from also from a position of curiosity.
So in other words, I am assuming.
what was behind the
actions of those people.
I'm assuming that they're Argentinian.
They probably have been
exposed to negative ideas about
black people in blackness.
It's unconscious.
It's playing itself out.
They think this is a fine form of
culture of entertainment or and, and it
doesn't occur to them, this is a problem.
And it also doesn't occur to them that
actually calling this out as racist
is not in and of itself racist, right?
Because that was, Was that?
"Oh, you're calling, you're
saying that this is racist.
The fact that you even brought
this up, that's racist."
And so I understand this and I can
speak to this to a certain degree.
But I don't know what these
individuals experiences have been.
So I think that in choosing who
you bring into facilitating those
conversations, you choose wisely.
Right.
Awesome.
And I agree because I remember a few
years back, we don't get a lot, but we
get enough in our Institute that we had
a superintendent who came to us pretty
much in tears because she had said,
post George Floyd, she wanted to make a
statement that in an automated phone call
home, we're supporting our students we're
gonna talk about the George Floyd incident
tomorrow, trying to be really progressive.
This is white, white
female superintendent.
And at the end she said, black
lives matter and all lives matter,
that those don't go together.
. And the black community was incensed,
that, you, you, you were there, but
then you said, all lives matter.
Not understanding the the context, the
political context of this All Lives
Matter movement, or Blue Lives Matter,
it's antithesis to Black Lives Matter,
and you can't put those together.
She didn't understand it, but she
knew enough to call us up, be like,
I stepped in it big time, and it's
in the paper, and we need some help.
We need to do some community repair.
Because I have committed an injustice.
And again, from her perspective,
again, I don't know this principle that
you're talking with the superintendent
that you're, you're referring to, I
don't know what her background is.
I don't know.
You just said she was a white woman,
but for her, it's a neutral statement.
Just like putting children in
blackface is a neutral activity, right?
It's not neutral and it's not
even just not neutral from the
perspective of a black person,
but it's not socially neutral.
It's not neutral when we take into
consideration that the significance
of that form of entertainment.
But they're not going to know that
unless they're actually open to
setting aside the defensiveness.
And being open to the idea that maybe.
They have been influenced
by anti-Blackness in ways
that they're not aware of.
So let me let's let's turn the
attention towards what you're
working on currently, right?
Because academics are working
on some interesting stuff.
And I know you do a bunch
of like academic stuff.
And then I think you have a podcast that
you're thinking about what is your passion
project that you're working on right now?
Okay, before we go on to that, I just want
to finish this incident, discussing this
incident that happened in the classroom
with again, the many, many ways that
that anti-blackness manifests itself
and manifests itself from the, people
in the health, helping professions.
So just very briefly, this, the, the
neighbor who had the issue with the, who
had the interaction with the the principal
had a party very shortly after that.
It was all the talk in the party
about the blackface incident.
I had a conversation right
with the, with a neighbor,
another neighbor, a white woman.
Who we'd been very friendly and
I said, this is really an issue.
And one of the things that's getting
missed here is the Latin American
component that people don't understand
that this that the teacher as well
as the director we're both from Latin
America and that there's anti-blackness
exists in Latin America as well
and et cetera.
And she said, "Oh, you know, I know and
my nanny has these feelings, harbors
basically saying harbors anti-Blackness.
But, Because all the nannies here are
from Latin America, in Miami, then it's
you can't, can't get away from that."
So I'm thinking, wow, we were, we we're
friendly and I thought of her as this
progressive person and and I'm never
gonna have my child play with her children
if they're, if her children are being
cared for and nurtured by a nanny who
believes in black inferiority because
I think those messages get communicated
through attitudes, behaviors,
body language, et cetera.
You don't have to have, be having
racist anti-black diatribes in order for
children to pick up on those beliefs.
So I wouldn't, didn't, wouldn't want
to expose my children to any of that.
So I just had a note to self.
I'm not going to talk to her about it.
But fast forward several months, she posts
in our neighborhood, you know, mom's chat.
"Oh, I have the best nanny in the world.
We're not going to need her after January.
She has the biggest heart and we
love her so much and she's so great."
And so, once I clarified that this was the
same nanny that harbored anti-black views.
And this person is a therapist.
So just to getting back to
the helping professions thing.
So, I said, I, I messaged her
saying, " This is the same person
I remember you saying that she
had harboured anti-black views.
And she might be good and for your family.
It's not that she can't have a big
heart, but you might want to acknowledge
that she would not be good for all
families or families, non white
families or families who are not
interested in having their children
be exposed to those kinds of beliefs."
And I just want to read you her
response because it really gets
into the kind of insidiousness.
And it also signals some particular
tropes that I think a lot of people in
the helping fields subscribe to and enact.
So she responded, she said, " she,
meaning the nanny, knows how much
I care about racial equality and
hasn't exposed my kids to that.
We have had many convos on this.
She has prejudices from her short
time of living here in the U.S.
And I have been helping her understand
the historic reasons for why her
underprivileged Black neighbors struggle
with drug addiction and poverty.
She's been open and wants to learn.
I hear you though.
I will have that conversation with
people calling for references."
So that was her response.
You're saying wow, Tracey.
Why are you saying wow?
Oh my.
And it's a number of aspects of just
the trope of the way to understand the
destitute black person who's addicted
and, we're going to talk about the
poverty stricken, not the concept of
your, your harboring anti-blackness
that probably comes from your country.
It's not, she didn't ingest
them when she got here.
And also her example is I'm trying to help
her understand this sort of downtrodden
black person as a reference towards
I'm helping her and she wants to learn.
I try to, keep my mouth closed
when you told the story.
But what...
So I didn't respond.
What sticks out to you?
Oh, not yet?
Well, how'd you read that?
Yes.
Radio silence from my end.
I don't have anything to say.
So basically what that told me
was that she's very invested
in being a white savior.
So she is saving this Latin American
woman from from her negative views about
blackness, which are not coming from,
as he said, coming from her country of
origin, but are the results and really the
kind of fault of all of these poor drug
addicted black people who are around her.
So she's putting herself in the position
of educating when she herself is not
educated clearly, but she's putting
herself in the position of educating this
person who is, unfortunate enough to be
surrounded by poor and drug addicted black
people and so that as a response to my
essentially identifying her willingness
to have her children be raised by somebody
who harbored anti-black feelings and
that this was a real contradiction,
what one might say hypocrisy, right?
Because as she started off the
comment, she knows how much I
care about racial equality, right?
So she understands herself to be
an advocate for racial equality.
I'm sure she understands herself to be
very anti racist and to be very aware.
And yet, in her home, she's perfectly
willing to have her children be again
nurtured and raised by somebody who
has negative, ideas about black people.
So there's a, there's a certain kind
of complicity in anti-blackness in
there and also from based on that
message, a participation in it.
So, and the reason why I wanted to
bring this back into to point out this
example, and bring it to its conclusion
is because again, all people who are in
the helping fields, she's a therapist.
The teacher was obviously, they were
educators, a school director of a
preschool me as an educator, right?
So we're all in these helping fields.
And I think this is sometimes
how the resentment, anger,
miscommunication, right?
Can all manifest itself, because
I'm sure you and a lot of your
listeners, you have diverse quote,
unquote, diverse Teacher populations.
So that's part of what you're
doing, I'm sure it's trying to
mediate some of the dynamics, right?
And, between teachers who have
different perspectives and
different experiences, right?
So I think that if I were to give
advice to somebody who was coming
in to mediate the relationship
between me and my neighbor.
I have my experience and perspective, and
she has her experience and perspective.
I think, again, having that curiosity,
and facilitating the desire to really
not just understand in order to placate.
But understand because you know that the
developing that level of understanding
is going to allow you to reach the
goal of in the case of most of your
listeners, the goal of eliminating
racial disparities in performance.
I am so glad that you closed the
loop on this sort of story around,
anti-blackness in the helping field.
A mother who is A psychologist
by trade who probably has
maybe black clients, right?
It's actively complicit in allowing
someone with anti-black sentiments
to care for her kids, right?
It's very profound in a lot of ways.
And then on top of that, when approached
from a black friend, it's the, it's
ingested in a lot of our listeners who,
who would be listening to a podcast
like this, probably considers themselves
to be anti-racist or at least an ally.
And the hard part about it, and this
is some of the work that we do, when
we approach someone who has a sort
of self image that gets poked at.
It's really hard to ingest that,
oh my gosh, someone is giving me
a gift to really understand my
complicity in white supremacy.
And instead of being defensive and
trying to explain why that's okay, maybe
I need to sit in it for a while and
understand that maybe I am complicit.
And how do I be less complicit.
Because reality of the situation and
reality, especially in education,
is that a lot of our teachers don't
live in their community, especially
if you work in a predominantly black
and brown school, a lot of the white
teachers don't live in the community.
They choose not to.
They actively pursue residencies
that are, that have a large distance
between them and the community they
serve purposefully based in race.
They often send their kids to schools
that are predominantly white, and
these are very racialized decisions.
And so we have these things that play out
in terms of neighborhood and also where
you send our kids to school, but yet
we work in a black and brown community.
And we have to understand that we
bring our biases into the school,
into the classroom, and they
play out in very profound ways.
And we have a conscious understanding
that we do not want our family
proximate to the black community.
And so to constantly
reconcile that is necessary.
And you gave her a gift to
acknowledge that this was
something she was complicit in.
And all is not lost in
that message to you.
It's okay, when to engage in
how to then engage productively.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I, I, it's unfortunate that I, I
appreciate your framing that as a gift.
I hadn't thought about it like that
because I, it was one of those things
where I just, I couldn't let it go.
I had to just say something and
I didn't know how she was going
to react and I was disappointed.
By how she responded, and maybe
she'll respond differently a year
from now, you know, sometimes, as you
said, people need to sit with things.
I did see her at a party and
she didn't acknowledge anything.
It was clear that it hadn't sunken in.
But I, but but I do think that
there is a possibility because
this stuff is deep, right?
This is really something that like,
goes to really, as you said, who it is
that people understand themselves to be.
And so if you have a fundamental
understanding of yourself as a good
person and that you want to help,
that you are about the solution.
That you are sickened by anti-blackness
and racial inequality, that it truly
disturbs you, that you even will, talk
to your family members or friends,
white family members and friends about
their racism or their anti-blackness.
And so you're in a position of like,
being beyond reproach, or you understand
yourself to be part of the solution.
And so, when somebody comes to you
and says, "actually, what you've done
here is troubling and this decision
that you've made is troubling."
You know, I understand why
she became defensive, right?
I think it's unfortunate and I think it's
part of the problem, but I understand
why she became defensive and I just
encourage if this resonates with any
of your listeners, if they identify
with the neighbor that I'm describing.
Again, I keep using this word
curious, being curious, trying
to put ego and trying to put the,
again, this kind of investment in
being good and especially for women.
We, we always, we are supposed to be good.
And, what happens when we're not right
and we get called out on actually.
Not that we're not a good person, as you
said, I think earlier in the, the podcast
that in the session, it's not you that
is, you know, you're not a bad person.
It's what you've done that, of
course, reflects some of your
beliefs and your attitudes,
underlying beliefs and attitudes,
but it's not all of who you are.
We are more than the worst
thoughts that we've had the
worst things that we've done.
And it's not without repair.
Like you can make
mistakes.
That road of anti-racism is
full with mistakes, right?
Filled with mistakes, especially when you
put yourself out there and you try to do
things to the best of your ability, right?
The journey is inherently imperfect.
And I use the term the phrase
you got a newborn giraffe.
If you want to be anti racist,
you got to walk like a newborn.
You got to picture
being a
c
newborn giraffes, they're like gangly,
they fall over, it's a mess, right?
But they don't stop trying
to walk, or they won't walk.
And what often happens is with well
intentioned educators, especially
non-black leaders and non-black
educators, go into anti-racism.
Don't understand that it's
fraught with minefields.
You have to learn as you go, step on one
landmine and they get blowback and then
like a newborn giraffe, they just, they
never learned the walk, they, they don't
newborn giraffe, but they just fall over
and say, "I'm never doing that again,
it's too scary."
It's too scary.
"I have to be perfect or I'm
not going to do it at all."
And it, and it is it's very hard
and fraught road because our, the,
the ingestment in ingesting of
anti-black racism is a lifelong
process from a very young age.
from very early
down that road of usurping him,
and the journey's never done.
So this podcast could easily be
overwhelming for a lot of people.
There was so much I have, and
folks often I want to do it, but
"I have so much to read, I have
so much to learn, I don't have the
depth of knowledge to do the work.
Dr.
Queeley's excellent.
I need to read her books.
Can she come and teach me more?"
So this whole people often build this
huge barrier to like, I will just
never be ready to start on the journey.
Now from you as someone who, has a great
depth of knowledge around anti-black
racism and understands that there are
well intentioned individuals who want
to be allies in the work, but also have
a personal experience with someone who
believes themselves to be an ally, but
yet is not able to access when they
get a gift from a person of color.
And that's the fear of
a lot of our listeners.
And so where do we start, you know, when
we're talking to teachers, we're talking
to school leaders who have the intention
and now want to know more and do more.
Where is the starting point
that not just being in neutral
and reading books and having
conversations with your white friends?
I think that that some of
that depends on access.
In other words, what kind of schools
that they're teaching at and who's there.
And I say that just because if you only
have white friends or friends who believe
the same that make you very comfortable.
I mean, you have friends, of
course, you want your friends
to be make you comfortable.
But, but if you don't, if you're, if
you're not willing to be uncomfortable
or have uncomfortable conversations,
and ask certain questions.
And you're afraid of, stepping
on of being again, being wrong,
being seen as ignorant or being
seen as quote, unquote racist.
I think that's probably a good starting
point is to say, to acknowledge like
I most likely based if I grew up in
this world, not even just country,
but you know, then I probably have
negative ideas about black people.
I grew up with negative ideas
about black people, right?
A lot of black people grew up with
negative ideas about black people.
But we more often have opportunities
to dispel them, to dispel those ideas
and to work on those ideas and heal.
And so I think that the 1st thing is
to just acknowledge that baseline.
And what that means, meaning what
that means for you personally, and
where can you not just receive the
gifts, but seek out those gifts.
And so being connected to people who
have different kinds of experiences.
And I don't mean different,
different racial experiences and also
different experiences with blackness.
So you know, if you have a friend who
you connect with around cycling, so
you guys love going cycling together.
You love going cycling together.
You hang out and that
friend grew up in Detroit.
I just thought that Detroit is like the
blackest city I could think of right?
Yeah, a lot of the black people there.
that might have had a
different experience.
I'm just, you know, in
terms of their upbringing.
So, it is, it's maybe harder to have
a conversation about anti-blackness
with that person than it is to have a
conversation about cycling, but having
those conversations, bringing that
up, not being afraid, as you said,
to be the awkward giraffe, right?
And I think, we're, I think we're
implicitly and sometimes in this
conversation, explicitly naming white
people or white women in particular.
But there's, there is also.
As I said, anti-blackness is internalized
by all, all of us to a certain degree,
one to one, you know, to a certain extent.
And
Yeah, the, the doll test from Kenneth
and Mammy Clark proved this, right?
Five year olds prefer white
dolls over black dolls.
So it was internalized regardless of
color of the child that anti-blackness
is something ingested by all
people, even with people with brown
skin, because it's not Teflon.
It doesn't, anti-blackness
doesn't, doesn't bounce off,
it's ingested by everyone.
Exactly.
I know.
And so, and I mean, I think
it would be interesting.
If I have one of my white friends
said, what was your experience like
growing up with, with whiteness?
What, what is your
understanding of whiteness?
Because that's also the big white
elephant in the room, right?
Is that is that the anti-blackness.
I should say anti racist work depends
on understanding what whiteness is
and disinvesting from whiteness.
And I want to pause there.
We're not saying disinvesting
from white people.
People often conflate that we have
to disinvest from white people.
Now we're talking about
the concept of whiteness.
Yes.
And I would also add to that, don't
conflate it with European cultures, and
being of European descent, you remember
if one of the threads during, the height
of the debates around the statues, right?
And taking down statues to confederacy
statues to the conquistadors, that
it was, this is part of our history.
This is part of our culture.
And so I think that, that understanding
what it means to dismantle or interrogate
whiteness can feel very threatening.
And as you said, not to conflate
that with people or histories and
cultures, because whiteness is a kind of
category is a phenomenon that developed
distinctly as a mechanism of oppression.
And it distinctly as a way to categorize
and understand people right in, as
from the, the superior to the inferior
right on this continuum with whiteness,
Europeanist being at the superior end
and, and blackness and Africanist and
indigeneity being at the inferior.
So you have this concept of whiteness
that people are very invested in.
And you asked me, the question is what,
what is the, one of the first steps
that people can make in moving forward
through towards this goal of being
anti racist is, one step is, as I said,
being curious, asking questions, asking
people's experience, black, other black
people's experiences of other people's
experience of blackness, et cetera,
and then also interrogating whiteness.
What do I, what does it
mean for me to be white?
When, many white people are asked that
question, they're like, "I don't know,
it means" like, I don't, you know,
there's this kind of empty category
because it's, it's, seen as being
neutral and seen as being the norm.
And I think that's, well, I was
gonna say, I think that's changing.
I think it's, it seems being dominant,
which hasn't changed, but yeah, I
think that's, that's a place to start.
Great.
Self interrogation and realizing the
complicity, just the way in which
we've been raised in this country
that we've ingested in, right?
Regardless of your racial identity,
and then also sort of interrogating
your racial identity and having,
starting the conversation with, within
your circle of influence, right?
That's what I hear you say.
And I think that it's flipped.
And as you were talking I was thinking
about this concept of fear, and changing
the definition of people are fearful about
having the conversation to change it,
change the fear, like what fearful of what
will continue in society if you don't.
And that's a different way of
thinking about fear, because
folks are, Oh, I'm too afraid.
I might be seen as racist.
It's too intimidating to say and have
this conversation with my cycling buddy.
But it the fear is, should be the fear of
what happens if you don't, because you're
like every other person and everyone
remains fearful not to talk about it.
Things in our society
continue to perpetuate.
So Dr.
Queely, this is, I could talk
to you for hours on that.
This is awesome.
Man, I'm getting some education here too.
This is great.
So for those who are listening, if
they want to find you, if they want to
follow your work, if they want to get
in touch with you, how do they find Dr.
Queeley?
Well, they can reach me via email.
As I said, I'm at Florida
International University.
So, my email address is aqueeley@fiu.edu.
And I'm also on LinkedIn.
Andrea Queeley.
A Q U E E L E Y.
Wonderful.
Yes.
So look her up.
She is wonderful.
As you see, have the depth of
knowledge around a number of topics.
And today we talked about
anti-blackness in the helping fields.
I'd like to thank you again for joining
us today and sharing your knowledge.
I appreciate the work you're doing.
Continue creating good trouble, right?
To usurp anti-blackness.
So thank you for coming today.
Thank you
for having me.
Take care.