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A weekly podcast about the forces shaping politics, power and technology, and how they affect you.
Matt Kendall (00:00)
Hello and welcome to Worth Knowing, a weekly podcast about the forces shaping politics, power and technology and how they
Elliot Costello (00:07)
Yeah.
Matt Kendall (00:08)
affect you. I'm Matt Kendall.
Elliot Costello (00:10)
And I'm Elliot Costello.
Matt Kendall (00:12)
So, Elliot, this is our tenth episode. Quite a quite a milestone. Yeah, tenth. Exactly.
Elliot Costello (00:18)
Not tenth year, just tenth episode, but one to celebrate.
Matt Kendall (00:22)
I I just want to say, I'm really enjoying this process. It's kind of like my my weekly sense making session. I think we one of the reasons we set out to do this is we just recognize that a lot of the discussions we have at the pub, you know, we come at
we have different sources. we we get our information from different sources. we absorb information differently, but we're we're interested in the same thing. So
essentially been trying to bring some of that sense making into this show and how we do that and try and sort of slow down s in in many respects even our own information diets, which can be full of hot takes and the latest stories. And
And try and and and bring that to an audience. And we we had another milestone which we we hit a few episodes ago, our AI bubble episode. It is almost at thirteen thousand views on on YouTube. and one of the interesting elements of that was and this comment came in just a couple of days ago, and where one user said
that you're either burying the lead or it's clickbait. I'm not I'm not spending half an hour watching this to try and work it out. well exactly and I I
Elliot Costello (01:36)
Why can't it be both?
Matt Kendall (01:39)
I I I stand by it. I know it was a bit clickbaity, but honestly that title came to me as I was walking the dog the night before when when we're I realised we're discussing this topic and I realized that a larger bubble had actually burst.
so yes, while the title was a bit clickbaity, I s absolutely stand by and I think that a bubble has burst and that AI has burst it. and that is essentially that that that old industrial rules-based order just is not there anymore. And it it's not like yeah, as Mark Carney said, this is a rupture, not a transition. and I think
that really that that quote of his exceptional speech in in Davos really really nails it and I think that's what we're we're wanting to speak about this week is that that not only has that has there been that rupture but you've got leaders like Carney and Burnham recently and a few others have recognized that that we are in a different paradigm now. However
here in Australia, our own political leadership, in particular our Prime Minister and our government, and even say our mainstream media haven't recognised that at all and are still treating everything, the decisions they're making, the the the strategies that they're deploying and and even that the way that they're they're speaking to us as citizens, as if it's for two thousand and ten still, wouldn't you say?
Elliot Costello (03:14)
W without a doubt. it's a big one to unpack, whether the sort of geopolitical world order is still intact and whether it's something we can rely on. I'm excited to see what clickbaity title you come up for will come up with this week, Matt. I think you're you're beginning to play the algorithm and get challenged by it. But look, I think it's
Matt Kendall (03:37)
No, I'm anti quite anti algorithm these days. I'm gonna I'm gonna back against it and just play it with a straight bat.
Elliot Costello (03:44)
Probably worth starting with Carney's speech. I will admit to being a bit of a policy nerd. I've watched that speech about four times. that's no exaggeration. I think it's the most important political speech potentially globally in my lifetime. certainly nationally, Kevin Rudd's twenty seven Apology speech might have been the most pertinent and significant in Australian politics, but I I can't think
of a more important speech globally. Of course we had the endless Obama speeches in eight or leading up to eight, but for the time and place for a middle power to stand up to a global superpower and effectively s say that the the world order is changed and we change with it as middle powers or we get consumed by it. and I just wanna quote him verbatim here because it's it's worth diving into but
Two things he said that illuminate that is that the system the there is a strong tendency for countries to get along, to accommodate, to avoid trouble, to hope that compliance will buy safety. Well, it won't. And I know that's something we want to unpack today, the compliance pick me strategy of our political class in Australia. he went on to sort of further highlight how
bad the system is, when he said the the system's power comes not from its truth, but from everyone willing to perform as if it's true. So you you think about that at Davos, World Economic The Forum, you know, who's in the crowds, even if, you know, Donald wasn't sitting there listening, his advisors are, and as are all the American media. So yeah, it'd be great. I think that's the purpose of today. Where do we sit in a world order that
is
changing and needs to change. And does compliance work or does accepting that there's a new path forward lead to better outcomes? And Carney, you know, is is holding that torch.
Matt Kendall (05:53)
Yeah, it was an incredibly powerful speech and and speeches are important. they're not the be all and end all, they need to obviously be followed with action. But they're quite often they're a flag on the hill. They're there's something to to aim for and to strive for. and I think y a lot has
Elliot Costello (06:10)
Especially
especially when they're out of the norm. When they're run of the mill, what we saw from Anthony Albanese at you the UN this week or last week, you know, when you're just getting up there saying, you know, the institutions ha are troubled, but you know, we we've got to stick with the the global political structures and orders, they're not that important. But when you see something that speaks to truth, the other thing, and sorry to cut you off, mate, the other thing about Carney's speech is he wrote it himself.
So his speechwriter
Matt Kendall (06:37)
Mm.
Elliot Costello (06:38)
got a copy three hours before he jumped on stage to do it. Like just pause on that for a moment. Find another leader world right worldwide that actually takes the autonomy to write the speech himself. And then I I I did chuckle at the start when, you know, his commences a speech talking about Thucydides. And I thought, how many political leaders would be sitting there googling, trying to polish up their political ideology from a fifth BC Greek mythology?
So y you figure out the intellect of someone that's been head of bank in both England and Canada to be able to take ownership over that speech, write it and deliver it with such honesty and depth.
Matt Kendall (07:18)
Yeah, I did as somebody who studied Thucydides in for for my HSC in U twelve, I did appreciate that that reference to I think it was the Sparta and the Spartan the Spartans and the Greeks. yeah, very, very relevant. And look, it i it it was it was an important marker and it a lot has has been a lot of water under the bridge since that. I think he he could see the the writing on the wall in terms of their relationship with America. and then he's done
you know, it then the action part has had to come up. So obviously since then, you know, America with their their trade negotiations with Canada, you know, came in at the last minute and and essentially was almost like a a non military sort of attempt to take over America you know, to to essentially make Canada a vassal state. essentially saying that they can't make trade deals without permission and that that that America would have veto over them.
cr even all the way through to crazy things like they they couldn't qu Quebecans couldn't speak French anymore and they couldn't use French on their packaging. really, really wild stuff. And so what Carney has had to do is bring Canada on a journey saying that basically our our main trading partner and neighbor, like it we it is just not reliable anymore. We are actually going to have to go over and and find other markets and it's going to be
Very difficult. And look, I I'm not certainly not putting Carney up on a pedestal. I mean, he is a s he is a central banker. He's a he's a he's a neo liberal. he's I just saw him recently spouting a lot of oil propaganda. in many ways I can understand that. Their economy is going to be even more reliant on on their oil, given this this Barney with America. But once again, it's just another example of
you know, just more fossil fuels that we can't afford to to, you know, be kicking up into our atmosphere. But an another recent example is Andy Burnham in the UK, at the at the Labour Conference. Once again, it it shocked, I think it shocked people. It caught the opposition on the flat foot. it even c even, you know, restore her ha haven't really been able to come back with anything other than immigrants. but he, you know
A a bit different, but w it was once again it was very honest. It was we're in a terrible fiscal situation. Brexit has been a failure. you know, so has the privatization of essential services such as water, and energy, and we need to start clawing some of that back. And it's it's that refreshing honesty, like this this is gonna be tough, this is a predicament, but I've got the country's best interests at heart and this is my plan.
And I just found myself feeling quite jealous of of not having a leader like that in Australia right now. Absolutely
Elliot Costello (10:15)
aren't you seeing that in Australia at the moment? Aren't you seeing that?
Matt Kendall (10:19)
not. I mean, you you s you spoke about Albanese's speech in UN. I mean, I'm not gonna sort of pick the whole thing apart, but like two two core things. One thing he said about climate was that we need to be braver about tackling climate change. And he says that while opening you know.
some of the biggest coal and gas mines in the world that are total carbon bombs. So saying one thing, doing another. Similarly, he was lamenting the world spinning into chaos without naming the the the government and the country that is is behind most of those conflicts and and chaos that that that is spinning out at the moment. And so I think what we've got here
is is d a distinct lack of bravery, a distinct lack of honesty. and I think th there's just so many fronts at the moment where our political leadership and our political class. And when I say political class, I don't just mean the government and the politicians. I actually include our our media. because I think our media is by and large letting us down in terms of the stories.
For instance, at that UN speech, the only tough question Albanese got was from Latika Burke. because he was up for a
I think a global citizens award. And she said, How do you feel like a fraud accepting that award given you bungled the handling of the Bondi massacre and that your polls are really low? And you think of all of the questions she could have asked him and held his you know, his feet to the flames off the back of receiving that award. And it was just a a weird it was more like a comment rather than than than a tough question.
Elliot Costello (12:07)
more
like an opinion, I think you mean. Yeah.
Matt Kendall (12:09)
Well, that's just it. And it's just
like it wasn't a tough question based on research or and he he it was a question that he was just able to say, No. No, I don't think
Elliot Costello (12:18)
Mm.
Matt Kendall (12:19)
I'm a fraud. So it was just a a complete waste of time and a platform. And, you know, we're we are being let down by our politicians, we're being let down by our media class. Given the the raft of problems that we are facing and that Australians are facing, not being addressed properly, resulting in the rise
of of one nation or one of the main reasons of it. and I think there does need to be a reckoning at a at a political level in this country, at least in the next eighteen months or to you know in the lead up to the next election.
Elliot Costello (12:54)
it's a it's a well formed opinion.
Those
that I don't follow Australian politics, One Nation is the the f far right party who would you would describe as a populist right, who are who have hoovered up a lot of I guess voter sentiment and support from both major political parties, the left and right, and and poses a real threat to form potentially a coalition government with the centre left. so
Yeah, what so if you trying to relate it into an Australian position, unlike Carney, and I think you're saying unlike Andy Burn Burnham, and I was in the UK in June when he became prime minister, I think there's a lot that he's doing right politically. He's reading the politics of the day in the UK, as is Kearney, who's only in power because of Trump and I won't get into Canadian politics, but
I think your thesis is Albo's not reading the political mood of the day very well. and yet instead of carving out a position that maybe is Australia first, we're falling into the traps of a world order that is changing. And that world order is a transition away from a dependency on a bigger brother, Uncle Sam, that no longer is reliable. And so meantime we're continuing with the
Assumptions that we are small, we are insignificant, we need the US at our side instead of accepting a changing world order that says embracing middle emerging powers and f and building up more resilient trading partnerships, which already exist, but we somehow seem to not let the left hand talk to the right hand. We're willing to have a fantastic trading relationship with China.
Or maybe not fantastic, but at least a a robust and number one trading partner, whilst militarily tying ourselves to the old world order, and that's a dependency on Uncle Sam. so I don't know where this quote came from, but I I remember hearing it. It could have even be been you, Matt. But we Australia manages to export abundance, import vulnerability, and we call it stability. And I thought it's such an apt
Quote, we, you know, export all of our minerals, that's quite clear. We import all of the vulnerabilities that we're feeling right now. we're an import nation. and politically we're feeling the wave that UK and US have felt over the last five to ten years of the rise of populist movements, and we somehow hold still and we think it's stability. And conversing that with the movement of the day, it's what we're doing with tech.
enterprising now. So if we're going to be moving to further sell Australia, sell ourselves up the river, selling out to big tech right now in an Americaned world order may not be the smartest thing possible. So as we've done with foreign ownership for all of our natural minerals and resources, moving to a a world order where these tech
Companies own data centers and we are the quickest, fastest, cheapest bidder to get as many dollars per state into Australia to be part of this AI revolution. I think that's the challenge that you're saying we need to have much better sovereign capability and strategic Australian first leadership on. Is that fair?
Matt Kendall (16:45)
Yeah, I I get the absolutely. And I think parti let's just to let's just take AI for instance and yeah, Albanese had that speech where he was talking about how he will once again it's it's weasel words. It's saying one thing and then, you know, y y l leaving some wiggle room within that language to actually do another than than what people have picked up the intention with and
The the latest example on that is around you know the copyright laws and IP for Australian artists and creators and journalists and and whatnot. And in his speech, he was talking about maintaining control. And so everyone read that as in, yeah, cool, you know, Albo's got our back. But now there's been some leaked information around the fact that essentially what
we can pick up from and nothing's been decided on this yet. It's just obviously they're entertaining it. Is that the you know, the the Frontier Labs are looking for cop what they're calling copyright certainty in order to invest for the the the data centers here. and and it looks like the the the Labour government has been entertaining that and then possibly moving rather than opt in to having your work
you know, use f used for training or or what what whatever they end up deciding deciding to do with it as more of an an opt out. So, you know, it's probably going to be some shitty dot gov dot AU website that doesn't work properly. It's going to be really clunky. And as we're sort of seeing with this kind of stuff, it's probably not going to stop them anyway. and so that's just a a another example. And look we'll we'll probably see the same thing happen with data centers. You know,
Albo said that they would have to be, you know, in terms of net zero positive. But he's already started to claw that back a bit with Northern Territory in Queensland asking for dispensation for for using
And you know, it's even language such as using gas for firming. And, you know, really it's this and once again the argument is is being used that, you know, you can there's an urgency here that the government just wants to basically lock down this investment and and get it in there before somebody else claims it. But in doing so is essentially selling our future up the river. And I look, I I understand that the the the desire to get
tech investment in this country, you know, we probably do need it to to help our economy in in this in this new environment. But it it we need calm and level heads and we need to be strategic about it because it's a little bit like how they're saying, you know, they the these come it's part it's a negotiation tactic. They're saying if you don't give us that, we'll go somewhere else. But we need to, you know, hold the line. Once again, a bit of courage, a bit of bravery needs to be
you know, entertained here in that essentially we are a stable we are stable geologically, you know, we don't have you know, earthquakes and and whatnot, and volcanoes. We're stable politically. and, you know, I think we're going to be a desirable place in order for these you essentially for these tech companies to be able to have their data centers, but on our terms and as long as the government is negotiating
on our behalf to look after the interests of Australians, to look after the interests of Australian artists. and the the the classic example is is once again it's the silicon version of what's happened with the gas, where they basically previous governments just handed handed over the gas to foreign interests and foreign companies. We're not getting enough tax, we're not getting enough royalties from it. All the money's going off overseas.
Now, once again, those companies threatened that they were going to go somewhere else. But where? They're going to go. There's so but all these other countries where they they don't have the political stability that we have. And then I saw the Norwegian Prime Minister in a speech a little while back saying, Yeah, they threatened that, but they didn't go anywhere else. They wanted our resources and they they will come here. And I think, you know, just a little bit of foresight, a little bit of bravery and making sure that we've got our government negotiating
With the our national interests at heart, not them staying in power, not them getting enough money to get around into the next election cycle. I I really feel that there's a a bit of a leadership vacuum at the moment on that front within our government.
Elliot Costello (21:21)
Yeah, certainly. So let's I mean you talked of Norway who fit with Australia and Canada quite perfectly into this sort of middle power concept. you know, not a superpower, not part of the bricks that Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa sort of fast growing economies, but still, you know, in that band of G twenty-ish.
Going back to Carney, he did talk about how middle powers must sort of come together and and act together because if we're not on the table, we're on the menu. And that's Norway's
Matt Kendall (21:57)
Yeah, I love that.
Elliot Costello (21:58)
point. That's certainly ca Canada's point. Australia's point is we're we're happy to be on the menu, big brother. Just you know, maybe eat us last whilst you, you know, savour the moment. the
The best elimination. And think you you know, when you're talking about tech, we we we have to be clear that there's certainly some of these companies now have these technology firms have state like power. and we're seeing that shift into or the convergence between technology leadership and state leadership. that's been evident over the last sort of two or three years. You've talked and and given quite
clear visuals of the major sort of tech leaders who stood behind Trump at his inauguration and became part of the apparatus and continue to be part of the apparatus. That was made even more clear this week when the Pentagon announced that Musk and Plamer Luckey will be spearheading the project Meridian, which effectively makes them advisors to how and where the Pentagon spends its money on defense weaponry.
The irony of that cannot be lost because, you know, both of their companies will benefit from those investments. small aside, I I met Palmer Luckey in 2016, back when it was probably socially acceptable to go to Necker Island, Branson's Island, before he got caught up in the e-files. there was a leadership global leadership conference, the founders of Airbnb and
series of others were there. And I never I'll never forget talking with Michael Franti, who was performing about US politics. It was leading up to the 2016 elections. This must have been June or July leading up to the November 2016 election. And Palmer Lucky, who was a 19-year-old founder of Oculus Riff, just been acquired by Facebook, got a nice little payday that's more money than you and I can count, let alone ever earn.
was sort of attached to this conversation at the end of the table and and butted in at the end because it was quite a clear democratic pro Hillary, what the hell's Trump on about? This position on migrants, this position on Mexican, this position on adversarials is just wild. And and Palmer sort of chimed in and confessed that he's been funding a lot of the Trump campaign and the anti Hillary billboards across California.
and started to bring up all the accusations and allegations of the Benghazi files and what Hillary had done and how untrustworthy she was. I mean, his point was she's part of a state apparatus and we need someone fresh and someone new. I think, you know, there's an argument to be had there. But when he confessed to Michael Franti that he's funding the anti-Hillary campaign, I remember Michael's stomping the table and throwing his hands on the table and stomping off.
Now this
Matt Kendall (25:04)
but
but th go going back to them, it goes gosh, that was it goes to show what a different reality that was. So he was in he'd sold Oculus to Facebook and that came out and he basically got cancelled. I think he had to leave it was it was so Yeah. Yeah.
Elliot Costello (25:17)
He got cancelled from Meta. And you think about the irony now. Like we
have seen 48 hours ago this whispering of, you know, Zuckerberg and Trump as Dario is speaking, like the the best friends between. Yeah. So the the public I mean, and that's the shift in 10 years, 2016 to 2026, of where Silicon Valley now sits. Between if you could ever if you would never align yourself with Trump to now only being aligned to Trump because of the money
and the contracts you win by being a part of his orbit. so
Matt Kendall (25:49)
Yeah. And there he was, you
know, yeah, but they're there at Quantico, you know, looking like he's, you know, he's like one of the guys that takes the kayaking tours down at Byron Bay. standing up on there with Newt Ging Gingrich and and Elon Musk, basic yeah, heading up, spearheading where the the Pentagon spending is. And so he he he is CEO of a company called Anduril we've
Elliot Costello (26:12)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Kendall (26:12)
mentioned them in our big tech episode. And they he's I think
Post Oculus, he went into essentially automated weapon weaponry systems. so obviously Musk with his, you know, SpaceX and you know, and s all the sort of satellite systems. And then obviously you've got Anduril it's automated weapon systems. They're obvious they're essentially going to be doing a report. I mean, it's probably it's been a little bit beefed up, but it's essentially probably going to be a big report recommending that.
the American military spends its hundreds of billions or maybe what I think it's I think the budget's now gone over a trillion or one and a half trillion on on their kind of weapon systems, which is yeah, frightening.
Elliot Costello (26:57)
W once upon a time, you know, that's insider trading. Now it's a pat on the back and you're congratulated by all around you.
the level of absurdity.
Matt Kendall (27:06)
Yeah. It's and that's that's I mean, and that's
business as usual. And I think that that brings us to the the core thread of this episode or the core point is that, you know, for so long now, since what, the end of World War Two, we have hitched our strategy to US strategy, you know, and we've been the the loyal
sort of sergeant in the Pacific. We we went to the Vietnam War, we went to Iraq. and, you know, they've
Elliot Costello (27:37)
We were the first to con congratulate Trump for bombing Iran.
Matt Kendall (27:41)
Yeah, it it's and in in previously it might have been considered to be you know, in the rules based order when when the u America was the the global hegemon
there was some sense to us having them as our key ally. And I think what's happening now is that is one of the core things I was talking about before, how the the the kid the the the conditions on the ground, the map, everything has changed. Carny's called it out, you know, Burnham is is is starting to recognise it and is bucking against it, and still Australia is essentially putting its hand up to be
you know, the the the sergeant in the Pacific. And I think that is a really, really dangerous strategy for us to be taking going forward. We America is not a reliable ally anymore. And if you're there thinking, and a lot of people are, that look, once the Democrats win the midterms and then get Trump gets kicked out, everything's gonna go back to normal. And it's like it it can't and it won't. America
ha has voted in somebody like Trump twice now. And the second time they voted him in was after he set a mob on their capital to essentially disrupt the peaceful transition of power, a fundamental of democracy. So they're not reliable anymore.
Elliot Costello (28:55)
The the re the reason it won't
no, I I don't disagree. you know, I was in America five days ago. I've got a soft spot for the country. we've all bought the myth and the story that it sells. you've talked about your rig bot pumps, you've bought into their, you know, their their culture too. I've got a soft spot for certain American people because I think deep down they are hospitable and deeply friendly. the naivety behind
So many is quite sad. and let's not break down the the sort of the media and what it's fed and the the the sort of the way that money controls. It's what is what's Mark Twain say? America's the best democracy you can buy. I think I think that's the quote. pausing that, it's your point is that the reason the it won't return to normal.
after midterms, after the 2028 election, is fundamentally because trust takes decades to build and minutes to break. And what Trump has done in the past two years is has completely broken those, the global alliance and the trust that many nations have held with America. And you won't repair that. You won't repatch that. And a new president, irrespective of the colors they wear, will find it very hard. It will take decades to
To pair back up that trust. Canada, UK, Norway aren't going to rush back in with the same level of a trust if there's a fear that, you know, a van twenty thirty two could to could swing back. So you you form new alliances and you form new ways of I guess building relationships and having rapport. I I wanna just go a little bit into the AUKUS Treaty because I think it's relevant for this episode and and I don't want to spend too much time on it. But
The
where we're what we're saying is the absurdity of Australia holding on to the old alliance with Uncle Sam is crazy, geopolitically, but it's also really expensive and the economic cost is bound for us all. So over nine years, no, sorry, over a couple of decades, it's a three hundred and sixty eight billion dollar bill. Three hundred and sixty eight billion dollar bill that we've foot as taxpayers.
Matt Kendall (31:17)
Think what we could buy
with that.
Elliot Costello (31:19)
But let's let's think what we are buying with it. They're they're nuclear-powered submarines. And we found out a few months ago that we're effectively getting secondhand subs. So we were purchasing new subs. We walked away from the contract and spent billion dollars tearing up the French contract to jump back into to bed with Albanese. And that was under our former Prime Minister Scott Morrison. and now we are Albanese hasn't changed that. We've we've stayed in this stupid relationship.
But $368 billion, what would have been brand new subs is now second secondhand subs. It's most second most expensive secondhand product in in the world, in human history. our health budget per year is 270 billion. so this is 50% more over a longer period of time, but then our annual health budget. So the fact that we
have signed on to a political class that think this is acceptable i is completely absurd. And I I know there's certain fringe segments of the sort of political class that are calling it out. and there's media that's put a lot of pressure on and ask questions. But the fact that both major political parties think that this is a good deal speaks volumes to a world that our political leaders are not accepting.
Matt Kendall (32:43)
Yeah, there's there's so many. If we could almost do an hour on this, the issues with it. But yeah, f first off, on those boats, like even getting those secondhand boats, they America needs to be building 2.3 a year, and I think they're struggling to hit 1.2, 1.3. And so, and then that that gets worse as the years go on. So these are we're paying all this money for for boats that we may not even see. Then there's the the whole, and this is this is the
The part that really concerns me. I'm really worried about the money and the the spending that kind of money on essentially I on stuff on I don't think I don't think it's a wise use of of I don't think that's where we should be spending our defense money. I think we don't w we need to be able to adapt to new information. And from what we've seen in Ukraine and Iran, is that when you're a a country and you wanted to be able to defend yourself, there's much more effective means
and you by the use of missiles and drones. Obviously we've got a a large perimeter of ocean borders that we need to patrol so there's gonna be a lot of boats that are going to be needed. But actually having nuclear subs, that isn't defense. That is power projection on behalf of the United States. And that puts a target at
Elliot Costello (34:02)
Target it targeted target at one specific country.
Matt Kendall (34:05)
one specific country and that specific country
happens to be our our primary trading partner. and I was listening, there's a great podcast called The Undiplomatic Podcast. Van Jackson, he's his ex kind of deep state. He was Pentagon during the Obama administration. and then he sort of had an awakening of realizing he wasn't buying into the strategies that were being deployed at that level. So he's he's now throwing truth bombs from
in that space from a university down in in New Zealand. But he was saying that, you know, it's kind of ironic. So I'll I'll quote him actually. He says, it's kind of ironic because a militarized crisis that's so unbalanced, like between China as a great power and Australia or Japan as a much smaller power that depends on the US in bizarre ways that it shouldn't, that kind of dynamic is going to strengthen the American position at the expense of Australia and Japan. Why?
Because for empires, there are no allies. There are only protectorates. And protectorates exist to be exploited and sacrificed. And the part of the trick of alliance management is convincing that ally it's not a prote a protectorate when it obviously is. So and and so a protectorate is essentially, you know, you we lose you know, we essentially w a a weaker state loses local or autonomy over its internal affairs in
The idea of of empire. And if you don't think America is is is behaving like an empire, just look at what it's done in Venezuela. Look at how it's behaving towards Canada and and Greenland. And and these concerns are not just to, you know, you know, limited to that fringe. You know, it's the same basically when you've got an issue when po our e two ex-prime ministers, one liberal and one labor, are are in a unity ticket, you know, you've got Malcolm Turnbull and Paul Keating.
saying that this is a bad deal for Australia, it puts a target on us. you you really do have to wonder what is going on behind behind those closed doors because seeing Richard Marles over in in in America buddying up to Pete Hegseth in in that manner and once again selling our future and our sovereignty up the river to big brother
Elliot Costello (36:25)
Mm.
Matt Kendall (36:25)
like the to our our our American big brother is once again
Lacking vision, lacking forethought and lacking lacking courage.
Elliot Costello (36:33)
Yeah, agreed. I I can't remember when he said it, but I think early in Albo's political career he he was made famous by saying, I like fighting Tories, that's what I do. now if you think of the most extreme version of a Tory, which is a conservative side of politics, quite a British term, that's the US. so meanwhile his counterpart, Carney, is tearing down the sign, building relationships.
Finding new trading partners, calling out the hegemonic unbalanced power of the US. our Prime Minister seems to be more interested in in rolling his back and asking for a belly rub, obsessed with recording and taking photos when he's with Trump or communicating that he's had a phone call with him.
Matt Kendall (37:22)
God, did you see that
did you see that selfie?
Elliot Costello (37:24)
Yeah, I did. Yep, yep.
Matt Kendall (37:26)
You only take a selfie like that if if if it's either with a celebrity that you're you're starstruck by or a really good mate. And so we know that Albo and Trump aren't good mates. And I thought I don't know who's advising him because that was that's not necessary. Like it's not diplomatic necessary to show at that relationship. And it it really
The the way I liken this is if if we look at global pol geopolitics as a as a schoolyard and Trump is the big bully that's throwing his weight around, doing really cool stuff at lunchtime. I don't know, they've got a kid pinned down, they're put f pouring dirt into his mouth. Carney is the is the small guy standing there with his hands in his pockets, like not looking pressed and actually saying, Got that's that's messed up. That's really messed up. And then I don't know, maybe t turning to
To but Andy Burnham and and and Europe and saying, hey guys, let's go and play footy somewhere else. And I think Trump, you know, or Albanese is the is is the kid who's probably in the crowd going, yeah, that's really messed up when not an earshot of the bully. But then the moment he's in the within earshot of the bully, he's there laughing at his jokes.
Going back to Carney's quote around thinking that behaving like that buys us that our complying with America like this buys us safety, it doesn't. Trump w even if we came under attack from China, Trump would drop us in a heartbeat if it if it meant he it it it protected what whatever I think just his investments, for instance. and so I I you know, I suppose to sort of wrap it up, I really do think
Elliot Costello (39:07)
I reckon I
reckon wrap it up with a one and only Richard Flanagan quote. I I I quoted him about Albo a few weeks ago, about his desperation to sit on the throne. So at the Festival of Dangerous Ideas a few weeks ago, he had an amazing quote where he said, Anthony Elbanese is more Toto than Toto. Like
Matt Kendall (39:27)
Yeah.
Elliot Costello (39:28)
the guy said like I anyway, you can wrap it up, Matt. I thought I thought Richard's
Matt Kendall (39:32)
Yeah. Yeah, is
Elliot Costello (39:33)
quote, who's a beautiful man,
Summarized it well.
Matt Kendall (39:38)
the the dog analogy is another really good one. Because I've I've got a border collie that that loves humans, isn't isn't that enamored with other dogs. And she can she she can get a bit ferocious if a dog gets in her grill. But if a dog is big enough, like she melts and she rolls over on her back and sort of presents her belly. you know, and I I think that there's a bit too much of that going on with our our foreign policy. I think there's an opportunity here for mi middle powers to start to forge
Essentially a foreign policy based upon our values, around democracy, around a rules based order, you know, refocusing our defence spending. I think we can cut we could cut that spending all the way down and be much, much safer in terms of having a defence mechanism that's focused on defence rather than trying to project power on behalf of America, which is in as as I've said, isn't gonna buy us any safety at all.
Elliot Costello (40:38)
Yep. good way to end. I'm further south than you, about two hours south. So I've still got some natural light. You're losing it up there north. so we might need to put a pin in the episode. But this needs to be unpacked in across multiple episodes. We've got a lot in, and I'm sure some listeners would like to learn more. So look forward to Matt's quirky title this week and let's see how it fares.
Matt Kendall (41:06)
Yeah. And just a a reminder to follow us, go to worth knowing pod.com where can find find us on Substack. and look, please share a review, a rating, a like, a comment, share with a friend if you're enjoying it. We're still very early days. so we'd we'd love to get the word out there and we'd we'd appreciate your support in doing so. because I think that that 13,000 was a a bit of a bit of a sugar hit.
a a f a couple of episodes ago. But if you want to go and have a look, it's episode eight. and the my clickbaity title title was The AI bubble has already burst. but until next week for another topic worth knowing, we wish you all a wonderful week and we'll see you soon.