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Intersectional feminist conversations about doing work and life differently. Hosts Becky Mollenkamp and Faith Clarke talk with entrepreneurs, authors, and thinkers about capacity, care, bias, and burnout. We name the systems we're taught to ignore, and imagine what's possible when we stop performing and start being honest.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:00.782)
Hi Nikki
Nikki The Death Doula (00:02.102)
Hi, Becky.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:03.586)
Thanks for chatting with me for part of the summer series that we're doing on Feminist Founders about invisible labor and the weight that women carry. Appreciate you being here. And I'm hoping you can start by telling us what a death doula is, because you are a death doula.
Nikki The Death Doula (00:10.944)
Yeah, happy to be here.
Nikki The Death Doula (00:16.5)
I am a death doula. what a big loaded question.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:20.81)
I thought it was an easy one to start.
Nikki The Death Doula (00:22.412)
No, so I have like a 30 second answer and I have an hour long answer. we'll do the 30 second answer. Most succinct way, death dualists provide non-medical support for the dying their loved ones to just kind of help them navigate end of life spaces. So that can look like any, a million different things.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:26.456)
Let's do the 30 second only because we don't have an hour.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:42.222)
All right, for the dying and those that are doing caretaking and or just love them. And so you deal a lot with grief. Your podcast is called Good Grief with Nikki, the death doula. I also was hoping you could give us a definition of how like what do you how do you define grief? Because I want to talk a lot about grief in this episode. And I think people often think of it only around death. But grief, I think, is much bigger than that. So could you just tell me what you how you define grief?
Nikki The Death Doula (00:44.908)
Correct. Yeah. Yes. Yes.
Nikki The Death Doula (01:02.784)
Yeah, yeah, and you're right. It's everybody's like grief equals death, right? And that's not always the case. Grief is our emotional response and that doesn't have to be positive or negative, just our emotional response to a loss. So whatever that loss is, be it a death, be it a job, relationship, identity, like there's a million, if you had something in your life and it's no longer in your life or no longer part of your life or whatever reason that is a loss.
and we greet those things.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:32.898)
Yeah, my mom once told me to a way that she framed it that helped me was the grief was just our reaction to when things aren't how we thought they would be. So that was right. Yeah, because it does a loss, even a loss. I mean, it's a loss of how you thought it would be. Right. But yeah. So anyway, I thought that was really helpful because it's like that could be so many things. And in fact, it can be things you even wanted. Right. But it still changes how you knew things to be. So sometimes it can look like a breakup that you wanted.
Nikki The Death Doula (01:42.26)
Yeah, yeah, that's a good way to put it. Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (01:48.469)
Right.
Nikki The Death Doula (01:55.296)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (01:59.702)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:02.318)
but it's still there's grief inside of that because you thought it was going to be something that would last a while or a job you wanted to leave. once you leave, can't under, I think people often are like, I don't understand why I'm upset. I didn't want this job, but there's still grief even with changes that you want, right?
Nikki The Death Doula (02:13.088)
Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. And you brought up the example of like a breakup. That's a good one because so many people with divorce, even the person who may have initiated the divorce, they, of course, they grieve the loss of that marriage because there was a future that they had been anticipating and planning for and that future is no longer there. So they're grieving the loss of that future that they thought they were going to have at some point.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:35.587)
Yeah.
I know your death doula work is around death specifically, but your podcast talks about grief and I think this bigger way, if I'm not mistaken. So you're looking at grief from all sorts of angles. And where I'm kind of hoping to start, because this is what this whole episode is about, is when you think about grief and big G grief, all the ways that we experience it, what have you noticed? This is going to be a big question, so be prepared. But what have you noticed about the ways that women carry that weight?
Nikki The Death Doula (02:41.772)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (02:50.426)
yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (02:57.132)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (03:03.756)
Ha ha!
Becky Mollenkamp (03:09.004)
And perhaps if you've had an opportunity, how that weight might look different in the way that men are carrying the weight of grief. But we can just talk, we don't have to compare it necessarily, but I am curiously, especially when we talk about like invisible labor, these invisible ways that women are carrying grief.
Nikki The Death Doula (03:18.625)
Right.
Nikki The Death Doula (03:24.554)
Yeah. Well, and man, there's, there's so much to this and that's such a loaded question. No, it's fine. I love this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there, there's, there's so much to say about that because women carry so much unrecognized grief, right? And we can just talk about the things like the, death losses, the non-death losses, the, you know, whatever. But if you think about the way most women
Becky Mollenkamp (03:29.26)
I know. Will you send us down a path and we'll go there.
Nikki The Death Doula (03:52.908)
We don't have to compare, but women are a little more open to at least discussing grief or facing it or talking about it, whereas men, not always, but typically are not.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:01.058)
Yeah. Again, that's about our conditioning often and that we are allowed to, we are conditioned that it's okay for us to talk about feelings that men are conditioned not to.
Nikki The Death Doula (04:07.39)
Right. Right. But that said, you know, we don't we still don't always do that. That that's even just a societal and cultural thing, not necessarily a gender thing. Right. Yep. But there's. Right. And that's just it, because when when we express our grief, people around us do get uncomfortable and then they say stupid things or things they don't necessarily mean to be hurtful, but can be hurtful.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:19.854)
especially around grief, right? It's a thing that we often try to hide. Because we don't want to make others uncomfortable.
Nikki The Death Doula (04:37.7)
but as far as like women specifically, like there's a lot of griefs that we don't even talk about with each other. And, I'm learning a lot recently about miscarriage loss. I've never experienced a miscarriage of my own personally, but I know so many women who have, and that's one of those things that we're just taught to get over that, just buck up and move on, you know, like, and how many cruel things women have been told about, like, well, you can have more kids or, you know, maybe it just wasn't meant to be like,
That was a life that they were, whether they were anticipating or not, was a life that was now part of them and is now gone. So, and those are things we just put so much shame on grief that we're afraid to even think about feeling it.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:22.764)
Right, well, women are told not to share pregnancy news until after the risk of miscarriage goes dramatically down in the second trimester. So what we're setting women up to do is to carry that shame or that grief, not shame, it shouldn't be shameful, although that often happens with it, but to carry that grief alone. We're conditioning people right away saying, no, no, don't tell anybody because you might lose this pregnancy. And then what? And then people would have to know that you're grieving. Right. So we are setting up and I've been through that. I have had a miscarriage at 10 weeks.
Nikki The Death Doula (05:40.576)
Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:51.522)
And had just told everyone literally two days before and there was that weight of that. But I now look back and think, this idea that people aren't supposed to be sharing the news because they might upset others with their grief, it's awful. And so, yeah, that's a beautiful example. Well, a sad example, but a real example of this weight that we put on to and not, know, I say women because, there's often a man involved and often maybe they're also excited and they're carrying some, they're shouldering some of
Nikki The Death Doula (05:53.9)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (06:09.462)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:19.914)
weight as well and helping their partner through it. I mean, it is largely put onto women as they are the primary physical experience, having the primary physical experience in that case of the loss. So anyway, yeah, that's a great example where we're being taught your grief needs to be done alone.
Nikki The Death Doula (06:20.044)
Sure, sure.
Nikki The Death Doula (06:24.939)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (06:30.145)
Right.
Nikki The Death Doula (06:36.268)
Mm-hmm.
Right. We're also taught our whole lives to be the one to shoulder others' griefs, right? Our male counterparts are for even like our children, like, oh gosh, you know, we need to take all their feeling. We take on everybody else's grief. And I mean, I go on and on about generational trauma. We have to hold on to that too. So we're holding everybody's grief because when, let's say,
a friend loses a spouse, it's always the women of the community that are going to that person to give them the support. I hate saying always, that's a bad choice of words. But it's often the women that are going there to make sure that they've got their meals, make sure they're being taken care of, make sure their self-care is, make sure they're getting out of bed. It's the women that are most of the time doing these things.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:17.166)
Let's use that.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:31.384)
And what does that then do? so the miscarriage example is a great example of the ways that we are conditioned to take the burden of grief on to ourselves, to not seek out community support and help when we're in grief. But also, like you said, there's this added layer of caregiving that we are conditioned into, that it's our role to take care of others, to take on their emotional pain. I can speak from experience. My husband's father just died very recently. It's not even been a month yet.
Nikki The Death Doula (07:42.305)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (07:46.188)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (07:54.699)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (07:58.922)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:00.39)
And through that experience, you my primary concern was my husband and my son. I have my own grief, obviously, but it is clearly a bigger loss for my husband, his own father, and for my son, because it's his grandfather and he's only known a life with him in it. So their grief felt bigger and felt not more important, but I needed to be there. And to be able to do that fully, it does feel a bit like, I have to push pause on my grief. Similarly, when my brother died many, many years ago, 15 years ago now.
Nikki The Death Doula (08:05.515)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (08:12.044)
Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (08:18.934)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:30.358)
I felt I needed to be able to be there for my mom. She lost a child. That's the, the, think for most people can see that as just the heaviest of grief for anyone to have to take on. And so while I lost a brother, her grief again, felt bigger and I needed to pause or sort of diminish downplay, put space from my own grief. So how often with the caregiving that we're doing, is that happening where we're taking on others' grief and then somehow, what are we doing? Compartmentalizing it?
Nikki The Death Doula (08:36.182)
Yep. Yep.
Nikki The Death Doula (08:50.026)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:57.646)
causing it, avoiding it? What are we doing with our own grief?
Nikki The Death Doula (09:01.144)
I feel like we're just avoiding it. Your example with your brother is exactly what I went through when my brother died because my dad was the one that found him. My mom was the one that called me. So I wasn't involved in that immediate part, but I was the first person my mom called to let me know that my brother was gone. And I will never forget the sound of her voice telling me.
that he was gone. And my immediate reaction was I need to get to her and I need to hold her and I need to be there for her because oh my God, her son just died, right? And then I found out later, my dad was one that found him. like, I have to take care of them. They just lost their son. So now I never even thought to grieve my own freaking loss for like four years. It was four years. He had two young kids too. So I'm like, I need to try to be there for these kids.
put my family back together, I need to do all this that I never once sat down and thought, should I be grieving this? And we do that so much because when we are caregivers in whatever capacity that is, we put our own needs for everything aside to take care of this other person, whoever they may be.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:21.326)
And want to just sort of like step out of death for a moment to say, because this is not all about death. It's about grief is what I really want to talk about as we talk about invisible labor, because it does feel like grief is one of these things that, and again, we're speaking generalities. I don't feel like we have to keep saying that, just everyone know we are speaking generalities, but we're speaking in the ways that we are generally conditioned in our society as men versus women.
Nikki The Death Doula (10:26.634)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (10:38.603)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:47.086)
or even broader as marginalized versus not marginalized identities, right? Okay, so just put that there. There's a whole host of other things that come in play, cultural and religious and all these other things. But in general, women are conditioned to take on so much of the caretaking of other people's emotions to try and make others feel better, the people pleasing, all of this stuff. And this is happening on a daily basis. And I want to talk about grief in this like,
the way that it's a part of this invisible labor we carry even beyond the big losses. We've talked about those in that, like that's the, where I think most of us think of it and we can see it we can say, yeah, there's this big thing that, you know, that's on my shoulders because I'm caring for others. My own grief is kind of getting paused, whatever. But I think about the little daily things. So I think about my son and the ways that I care for him and I tend to him and I hold his emotions. And every time he has a little hurt, right? Like there's,
Nikki The Death Doula (11:32.405)
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:41.714)
a kid who makes fun of him or he loses something he loved like a toy or whatever it is. But every time he has a little hurt, there's that little piece of that emotion that I'm taking on to try and carry for him so that he can go about his life in a way that doesn't get burdened by those things. Right. And I think most parents can understand this as a partner to a spouse. We do these things right. We're taking on some of their pain when they come home. They've had a bad day and they unleash. And then maybe we don't have the space, the same space or equal space isn't necessarily given.
Nikki The Death Doula (11:46.55)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (11:55.18)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (12:02.742)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:10.926)
for us to do the same sort of thing. So we're taking on their stuff on top of what we've already had going on. So all these little things that we're experiencing every day are little forms of grief, are they not? That we're not giving space to experiencing.
Nikki The Death Doula (12:15.702)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (12:20.8)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. Like at the very top when I was defining grief, it's our emotional response to a loss. And you had a great example or great way to phrase that too. But you think about like the support maybe I want at the end of the day and I'm not getting because I'm holding all that other grief, you know, and it could just be just, I don't want to use myself as an example, but like, you know, if I,
end of the day, if I'm, my husband comes home from work and I've had like a really rough day and he's had a really rough day, I'm going to sit and listen to him talk about his rough day. I'm not going to tell him about mine because I want to support him. Like, God, he went through a lot today, you know, and that rarely happens for me personally, but just that's an example, you know, or just the fact of I just wanted somebody to talk about my day with and now I'm in this role where I have to help support him.
And this could be anything like that. This could be with a parent and a child. That was a great example. Your kid comes home, they've had a really rough day and you kind of just want to have a fun evening playing games, but they're now depressed and hiding in their room. So like you're in that caregiver role and you've just lost that plan, that idea you had for how your evening was going to go because of that.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:45.01)
or you have the play evening for them and maybe you also had something really shitty happen to you that day. But now you're not giving your space to not only not talk about it, but to deal with it because now you're having to take their pain away by, you know, distracting them or helping them through it or whatever it looks like. So, yeah, either way, that their mood changes the night or you're trying to change, you change things to try and appease them. Either way, your stuff. So sitting there on
Nikki The Death Doula (13:51.905)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (13:59.094)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (14:07.274)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:14.207)
Undealt with.
Nikki The Death Doula (14:15.338)
Yeah, yeah, and then we go to bed with it. We wake up with it. We hold on to it again for yet another day and then it compounds on itself.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:24.748)
what happens when that happens, when your grief begins to compound? Because I think that is what so many of us experience. And by the way, we haven't even touched on the big grief of the world around us, right? So we're talking about big grief as in big losses, the little griefs that we all are dealing with every day. There's also this added dimension always, but it feels maybe for many people even more pointed right now with just the difficulties of the world and the grief that we're enduring, we're seeing on social media and on the news. And we're taking that on too.
Nikki The Death Doula (14:35.197)
god. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (14:49.153)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (14:53.238)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:54.995)
So when all of these things compound, what happens?
Nikki The Death Doula (14:58.86)
Well, it depends on how we cope with it, right? And coping mechanisms are everything. Not all are great. There's no ad. I get asked all the time, like, what's the best coping mechanism? And the answer is whatever's best for you. Like, I don't know. But if we don't, if we don't take time to look at our grief and feel our emotions, they just keep festering and they'll come out in other ways. Like, it's like, if you take a beach ball,
Becky Mollenkamp (15:04.366)
Mmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (15:28.68)
and you are swimming in the pool and you hold it under the water, you can hold it there and you can sit on it. But man, you it's going to pop up sooner or later, right? It's going to float up to the surface. And that's the same way with your grief. Like it's going to be there and you keep pushing it down. It's going to keep pushing up and eventually it's going to slack. And if you're not lucky and you're looking down, it's going to smack you in the face.
And it could come out as an angry outburst, a depressive episode, a mental breakdown. These are extreme cases. In lesser extreme circumstances, it can just come out as dissociation, right? Which then someone comes to you and they're dealing with a lot, but you've finally hit that breaking point and you're dissociating and they think, wow, she doesn't care about me.
And then, you know, they blow you off. They're like, well, you don't give a crap about me. you know, and then you've got now you've got that guilt on top of everything else. So there's no easy coping mechanism. There's no right answer for everybody. You have to take time to sit with your icky feels and feel them and face them. And it sucks. And I'm sorry, but that's the answer.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:40.534)
Yeah, there's no like easy button like the commercials. There's no easy button. There's no way. And that was I'm sure you have your own stories of this, too. But after my brother died, I spent two years really just avoiding like running from my grief as fast as I could and doing everything I could to not have to feel it, which included a lot of drinking and a lot of like not sleeping because I couldn't even be alone with quiet thoughts, just constantly being distracted.
Nikki The Death Doula (17:01.996)
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:05.806)
had to be with other people. I had have lots of noise and doing things. I was constantly on the go. And I don't know that I was intentionally thinking I'll outrun this grief, but I think that's what was happening is like, I'll just never have to feel this and it'll be fine. Like if I never feel it, it'll be okay, which obviously doesn't work. And eventually everything kind of came crashing down around me where I started to, I started to look like who am I? This isn't who I am. I'm hurting people. I'm not showing up the way I want to show up. And as soon as I started to notice it, it was kind of like the whole thing just fell apart and it was like, okay, I have.
Nikki The Death Doula (17:09.132)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (17:21.354)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (17:33.686)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:34.306)
to deal with this. And it was like a solid six months of literally just feeling feelings, which I had a lot of privilege in being able to take that kind of time to do that, because my mom let me come stay with her and all of that told the story many times. But you have to feel the feelings. There's crying, there's journaling, like there's ways to get those therapy. There's ways to the feelings out, but you have to sit and feel them. And so that's on the big thing, but on the daily grief.
Nikki The Death Doula (17:45.292)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Right? Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (17:59.146)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:59.15)
I for a lot of people, I mean, I think there's many people who can relate to the big losses because you don't get out of life without losses unless you leave life early. Like we're all going to have losses. My my son's nine and he's already had a loss. My niece was nine when her dad died. My brother died. That was so most of us just we don't escape life without losses, the big ones. But none of us escapes even usually a day without some disappointments that are some micro forms of grief. So like when you think about the daily level, how does the kind of stuff you're teaching in
Nikki The Death Doula (18:14.092)
Yeah. Right.
Nikki The Death Doula (18:21.942)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:28.534)
your work as a death doula, like how might that help us translate and better understand how to deal with the daily stressors that we often let compound instead of letting them compound.
Nikki The Death Doula (18:33.706)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (18:37.52)
So, yeah, I love rhymes and I always like my big, for big griefs, I'm always like, you got to feel it to heal it. But for the day to day, you have to name it to tame it is my go-to. Just recognizing that what you're experiencing is grief is a fantastic first step, right? Like if you are, you just can't, why am I so irritable today?
Why am I so mad? Like it's not my fault traffic was bad and my kid had a bad day and I got a flat tire. That's none of that's my fault. Well, yeah, correct. It's not your fault that happened. But the way you're responding to it is that's the only thing in your control and to understand that. Okay, these things happen and I'm responding to it because I had a different plan in my mind. I had a different anticipation for the day.
I was going to go pick up my kid, we were going to get ice cream, it was going to be great, but I got a flat tire, my kid was met. You had this ideal of what the day was going to be and now it's different. That's a mini grief. That's not a big G grief, that's a little G grief, but just recognizing I expected something and I did not get that and I'm responding to it. Remaining as objective as you can, because I struggle with this in the moment because I get angry when I drive, and to sit back,
Becky Mollenkamp (19:59.66)
have a bit of road rage too, I will admit.
Nikki The Death Doula (20:00.958)
right? And to sit back and to try to objectively say, well, why am I so angry right now? What? This person isn't quote unquote following the rules. That's a big one with me. Like I'm a rule stickler. People don't follow the rules. you know, like these rules exist for a reason. People don't follow the traffic laws. It upsets me so much. Well, why is that upsetting? Because it's not fair that they did it. But if I did it, you know,
XYZ would happen, I would feel bad or you know, I was, I need to be somewhere in 10 minutes and now I'm going to be two minutes late because this person was driving too slow or you know, whatever the reasoning was. So just understanding that it was an expectation I had that was not met and that is a grief.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:44.034)
there's a few things that get in the way of the naming entertainment, and I'm curious to hear what you think. One of them is, think, just what we've talked about, that we as a culture in America, as a society and culture, we do really bad at grief. We just do really, really bad at right? Yeah. And okay, that's a whole other road we won't go down, but I am kind of curious. But we do a really, really, really bad job with grief here.
Nikki The Death Doula (20:56.636)
the worst. Well, not the worst, but we're really bad.
Nikki The Death Doula (21:07.628)
100%.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:08.366)
We, again, we don't want people to feel it. We are also uncomfortable with it. We give three days of bereavement leave if you lose a spouse. Like, it's just wild, right? Like, we expect people to be done. You get three days, maybe a week, and like, then you need to be over it because you're making me uncomfortable. So like, we don't do well with grief in this country as a whole. And I think because of that, one of the other ways that we fall short is we don't understand what grief is, as we talked about at beginning of this. People only think grief is one thing, and anything else, they can't call it that, or it doesn't seem like it.
Nikki The Death Doula (21:17.409)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (21:31.222)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:38.092)
qualifies, quote unquote, as grief. And so I think that's part of it. I think people can't name it because they just have never understood, been taught that that counts, quote unquote, as grief, that it is grief. The other thing that I see is comparative suffering gets in the way so much. Where, again, that part we were talking about of, well, my husband's day was worse, so I need to hold space for him. And who am I to now interject or to ask for space for my seemingly trivial by comparison grief, right?
Nikki The Death Doula (21:39.582)
Right.
Nikki The Death Doula (22:06.614)
Right, right.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:07.862)
And that is something they think, especially with women, we are so conditioned to be small, not burden others, not bother anyone, that we end to care so deeply about others, have all this empathy, that we constantly are diminishing our own grief as not enough. But if you compare your grief to others' grief, there's always going to be somebody who's got it worse in the world. So do you agree? And how do you see comparative suffering playing a role in this?
Nikki The Death Doula (22:22.572)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (22:29.206)
Yeah.
my God, I hate comparative suffering. don't, because we try to be helpful sometimes when we are talking to somebody who's grieving and we're not. It comes from a place of heart, the, know, well, it could be so much worse that whole mentality because that you just belittled their grief, right? You just made them feel like, my grief is not valid and that I'm so upset must be bad then, right? Because somebody else could have it worse and we...
We could do grief comparisons like, you know, oh, well, at least this didn't happen. Or, you know, I'm sorry your mother died. My mother died when I was 10. I had to live my whole life without my mother. And you just lost her like last week and she was 85. right. Like you're not going to win a prize. There's no medal for the best grief. Like that's not a thing that exists. we and our emotional expression is one of those things that we're taught to.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:16.482)
grief Olympics.
Nikki The Death Doula (23:31.18)
like hide most of our lives too. Like don't be upset, don't cry. We want to get real weird about it. You take it back to when you're an infant, when an infant's crying, first thing we do hold it and go shh, shh, shh, right? We shush it. Like crying is a bad thing. Crying's not a bad thing. And we tend to focus that on the things like the anger, the tears, the rage, the...
the huge like more like outward mourning. tend to view those more than like people who might be happy. They might be joyful. They might feel relief after a loss and and yeah, not just death loss, but any loss. But we're not looking at those because those don't make us uncomfortable. Those are fun emotions, right? So we're looking at the the like the big sobbing episodes, the angry outbursts, and we're shaming people for those because it's making us uncomfortable because, ooh, anger.
That's no good.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:28.364)
Although there's also sometimes shaming in somebody who doesn't grieve the way we think they should, especially around death. But I think it's around eight days. Like we have this prescription for what your grief should look like. So if it's you're feeling aggrieved or have a grief over being late somewhere by five minutes, people will say, like, they expect you to get over it. That's pathetic. That's stupid. Nobody like, whatever. Right. So they downplay it. Your grief doesn't look like they expect. And there are people like, yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (24:34.38)
yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (24:44.0)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (24:50.218)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:55.082)
you might be laughing the same day that you've lost someone really important to you. And there will be people that will judge that and like that's not acceptable. And that is not helpful. And so, yeah, I think part of I love the naming it to tame it. So the first thing is we have to recognize that the being 10 minutes late and feeling frustrated and angry and upset or whatever, that is a form of grief. It's a small micro form of grief, but that's what it is. And so we need to recognize it as such instead of saying I shouldn't feel angry over something so trivial just to say,
Nikki The Death Doula (24:57.59)
Mm-hmm.
yes. Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (25:12.908)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (25:16.854)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:24.408)
I'm just grieving that I didn't get there when I thought I would. That's grieving.
Nikki The Death Doula (25:25.942)
Yeah, or just acknowledging I'm angry in this moment. This is why I'm angry. You don't necessarily have to like if I'm running five minutes late thing and you're just really, really ticked you off that day. Like don't beat yourself up over it, right? It's okay to be angry at that, but to objectively step back and say I'm angry right now because I expected to be on time and I'm five minutes late. And you can still feel the anger. You can still feel it.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:53.899)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (25:54.112)
You don't have to shame yourself into saying, have no right to be angry. That's not that big a deal. Go ahead and feel angry. It's obviously how we express that or what we do with it that's important. Don't take it out on other people. But to be able in the moment to objectively say, I am angry right now. And this is why is so powerful.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:11.372)
We need a feelings wheel. I've talked about this before. going to talk about it Everyone needs a feelings wheel because humans, Americans in particular, can't say all humans, Americans in particular are really bad at naming emotions. Like people on average, I think know like three to five. They know like happy, sad, angry, bored. I don't know. people can name a few.
Nikki The Death Doula (26:13.28)
Yes.
Nikki The Death Doula (26:22.07)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (26:29.473)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:31.128)
But they don't like we can't get to that deeper feeling of like, okay, so am I angry or am I frustrated? Am I frustrated or am I disappointed? Like there's like layers to these feelings and knowing being able to put the right word to it is so helpful. And just as an exercise, especially in those small moments, be able to start naming what is the actual feeling. So if you stop yourself to name it, get out of feelings wheel and actually name it. Where does it actually exist on this wheel? What is the right word to talk about what feeling?
Nikki The Death Doula (26:38.347)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (26:43.628)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (26:49.622)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:55.916)
And secondly, I just want to say and avoid, in my opinion, those things that rank feelings. I have seen them before where they talk about high energy and low energy feelings and like anger is a low energy feeling and happiness is a high energy feeling. And these people saying we need to be only in high energy feelings. It's really gross toxic positivity stuff. Yeah, because anger is a it can be a very high energy feeling. It's a great feeling sometimes. It's it can be the best fuel for change. Right. And sometimes we need anger. So to avoid.
Nikki The Death Doula (27:04.481)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (27:13.662)
I hate that, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:25.452)
lots of bad situations. But so anyway, find a feelings wheel, avoid the ones that one it's circular as in they're all valid instead of one that's ranking things and being able to name what it is. I think that's really important. And then don't compare your feelings to other people's because there's always going to be something that's worse. Of course, there's so many things that can be worse than not making it on time and not making it on time caused real feelings that you need to feel. Wow.
Nikki The Death Doula (27:31.722)
Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (27:45.558)
Right.
Yeah, yeah. I've talked with people who have like chronic illness and I've interviewed people on my podcast who've had like horrific injuries or things like that that are not exactly terminal, but you know, they'll be in an accident and they'll constantly hear at least you survived. And while that is true and they are not deceased after whatever accident or whatever, you know, diagnosis disease,
that doesn't necessarily negate all of the pain and trauma that they are now experiencing every single day, possibly, know, and the grief they're suffering of, you know, maybe they are unable to walk the same, maybe they look perfectly fine, but they can't, you know, a lung collapse, like I can't run anymore because of my, you know, I don't have one lung or whatever it might be, like.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:25.965)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:42.136)
Maybe they can't enjoy sexual activity the way they once did and that's a huge loss.
Nikki The Death Doula (28:45.492)
Yeah, yeah, so many people, I see that a lot in the cancer community when people, know, quote unquote, beat cancer or go into remission. But they don't we don't talk about like the ins and outs of every surgery they may have had. Maybe they are, you know, they have a colostomy bag for the rest of their life or they're impotent for the rest of their life. Like all these like little things that is a permanent change that, yes, I survived. Yes, I no longer have cancer, but
I still have this loss, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (29:11.853)
or and.
Yeah. It's that yes, the end of so much, right? Yes, I'm alive. And things are not the way I thought they would be. And it's really hard. When you just said that, too, about the things we say to people in grief, it makes me think a lot about the ways we do the same thing with our children and parenting of like telling them, well, it could have been worse or, you know, your friends got it. We're like we do the same things to kids all the time when they talk, they express their frustration or their emotions around a very real loss to them.
Nikki The Death Doula (29:21.578)
Right. Right.
Nikki The Death Doula (29:30.316)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:44.49)
maybe they lost a crayon and in our mind it's like, but you have 20 other crayons, right? And we'll say these things to them in an effort to try to make them feel better. But what we're doing is teaching them from a very early age that we then do this our whole lives, that our losses don't matter, our feelings about our losses don't matter. We're being told and shown, get over it. And we're doing that to our kids. So parents, don't do that.
Nikki The Death Doula (29:56.332)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (30:02.89)
Yeah. Yeah, please don't do that. I know it's real easy and kids, you got to think about brain chemistry and things too. Their prefrontal cortex is not fully formed until they're in their 20s, okay? So give kids a little bit of a break when they have that big emotional outburst because I was a very sensitive kid still am. And I would get real upset about things and I would be constantly told like, this is not that big a deal. Chill out. Like stop crying. Stop being so upset.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:29.39)
right.
Nikki The Death Doula (30:32.169)
Like that whatever I was experiencing was, you know, quote unquote, not that big a deal. But to me in that moment it was. And then I felt shame because clearly I must be weird or whatever for feeling it.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:44.482)
Right, or selfish or uncaring or whatever the things are that we end up taking on. And this affects how we deal with grief throughout our lives. So just through that parenting bit. And then, I don't know, this may be lastly, we'll see. But I'm curious about community. Because again, we've talked about grief and how we are so often the miscarriage piece, but also just with death in general, how we're given a few days. And then it's all about making other people uncomfortable and all of that.
Nikki The Death Doula (30:47.595)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (30:52.886)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (31:11.062)
All right, bye.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:11.96)
We as women are very much, we don't want to make anyone uncomfortable. I should say as white women, because I know that there's also very big differences in that issue as well. what role do you think community does play right now in the grieving process like in America? Again, big G, little G, the big griefs and even these dailys. And what would you like to see it look like?
Nikki The Death Doula (31:14.731)
Right.
Nikki The Death Doula (31:34.838)
So we're really great at labeling things now, right? And with all the different millions of platforms of social media and community that we can have virtually, it's opened up, there's good and bad points to that, right? But it has opened up a fantastic world in that we can connect with people who might be experiencing something very similar that we never would have met otherwise. So the fact that we have these like,
literal communities that might be virtual, might be in person, it might be like your church, your faith group, whatever. We still have these and that makes me so happy. I wish more people took advantage of those. But I think that is huge in just being looking at somebody and being around people who get it. Whether that's
if you're honing it down to a very specific, like we have support groups for everything in this world. There's cancer, there's divorce, there's child loss, there's job loss, there's support groups for just about everything out there. that's, I always encourage people if that doesn't work for everybody, not everybody's great with that type of support, but if you could find that, at least experience it once or twice, because to look at somebody who has experienced a very similar loss, it's not going to be the same.
their response to it's not going to be the same, but they at least understand the loss that you have suffered as well can be so validating. it can be so, it can feel so nice because you like, let's say something like pet loss, pet loss is a big one, right? Like pet people know it, we get it. I was devastated for quite some time after loss of my soul cat. And I've met other people that will tell me stories and then you meet those people like it's just a cat.
But when you talk to other pet people, they get it. So you know, you can feel more open about like, my gosh, I have to tell you all about my loss with my cat, because I know they get it. So I think that is fantastic. And I love that we can find those communities. My wish would be that we could just connect with maybe not anybody, but you could talk to your barista and be like, my God, my dog died yesterday and I'm just so broken up about it. And they're not gonna be like, why are you telling me this?
Becky Mollenkamp (33:50.506)
Right.
Nikki The Death Doula (33:50.816)
But at least give you a, my gosh, I am so sorry. That must be terrible. you wanna, you know, I'm on the clock, but whatever.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:58.126)
I think the important piece is the piece you just said too, the way they receive it. Because I think right now there's this like, I think so much of it is for us to examine for ourselves and how we're holding space for others when they're expressing their own grief, big or little G. So even somebody coming up and just saying, because we do this in America, it's like, how are you? I'm fine, is the expected answer. If someone asks you how are you? And they say, no, I'm actually having a really hard day.
Nikki The Death Doula (34:02.657)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:24.322)
man, what's going on in Gaza is just really weighing on me, right? So that may not be your own big G, but it feels like it's a big grief in your life. And instead, we don't feel like we're allowed to do that. And I would love if we could and the other person could say, that is really hard, isn't it? That's all I think most of us are looking for is just like, yeah, that is hard. But instead, we get uncomfortable and we're like, who's this weirdo telling me their problems and, my God, they're complaining, right? If we just had more spaces, we'll just say, and then to
Nikki The Death Doula (34:30.262)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (34:39.05)
Yeah. Yeah. Just, just some validation.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:53.08)
be able to give that. like on the other side of that, all you got to do is just to give them a, I know it's tough, isn't it? How far that goes? It's so simple and how far it goes and we don't do it.
Nikki The Death Doula (34:58.88)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And so, I mean, it's also the way you say it too. You know, like, well, that sucks. Bye. Right, right. No, no. Yeah, but to at least, because what you're doing in that moment is you're acknowledging and validating that they are hurting.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:08.974)
Well that's it.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:13.805)
Maybe not that way. A legitimate. Oh, I know it is hard.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:24.046)
That's what most of us are looking for in that moment, isn't it? Because otherwise, what happens is we feel isolated and alone.
Nikki The Death Doula (35:30.048)
Yeah, grief can be, grief is so isolating because of things like that. Like you want to talk about it and you get weird responses or people don't want to talk back and they make you feel weird or belittled about feeling sad about that. So you don't want to talk about it. And then you're just in this little island of grief all by yourself.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:49.08)
which then I'm assuming adds to that whole compounding problem, right? Thank you, Nikki. Before we go, we're having our guests say this and answer it, is, I know, when my invisible labor becomes visible, I can. So can you say that phrase and finish it for you or for everyone? When my invisible labor becomes visible, I can.
Nikki The Death Doula (35:53.035)
Yep.
Yeah. Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (36:11.084)
Okay, can you repeat it? Okay, when my invisible labor becomes visible, I get...
Becky Mollenkamp (36:23.756)
Or I can. here it comes.
Nikki The Death Doula (36:25.068)
Let me think. Okay. When my invisible labor becomes visible, I...
Mmm, I feel validated. Is that good? That is what I feel.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:37.496)
great. Is that what you feel? Yeah. And I wonder for you specifically, is there another version or maybe it's exactly the same version of when my grief becomes visible?
Nikki The Death Doula (36:47.882)
Yeah, so yeah, hmm, because if I were to spin, if I were to say when my grief becomes visible, I feel vulnerable.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:58.03)
oooo
Nikki The Death Doula (36:59.916)
And vulnerability is one of the things I struggle with. that's me as a person. That's just who I am.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:04.172)
I love that the death pool is like, yeah, it's vulnerable because that's real. is that we talked about, there was a cat for anybody who's cat, cat, cat, but cattail. When we talked about so we talked about the naming it and part of it is we don't learn how part of it is this comparative suffering is another thing that keeps us out of it. Then is the vulnerability of doing that.
Nikki The Death Doula (37:08.256)
Yeah, sorry. The cats joining the podcast.
Nikki The Death Doula (37:23.36)
Yeah. I think like, I believe me, I've done so much like self-reflection and try to do some self-discovery on why my, husband has told me more than once. He's like, Nikki, I don't know if you're aware of this. You're kind of hard to get to know because I'm very closed off and I keep my emotions pretty well under my own, you know, cuff, so to speak. And I've done a lot of like reflection and time, like, why am I like this? Why do I do this? And I think a lot of it is just shame that I have been.
shown, right? When I get too close to somebody or when I open up or when I share something vulnerable and I get a response that I was not hoping for or a, or, you know, an unideal response. Like I hold that. I don't forget that. Like that stays with me. So, vulnerability is hard.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:12.638)
that cognitive bias we have of holding negative, giving more weight to the negative responses than the positive. So I think so many of us can relate to that. But when you allow yourself that space to do that, then let's, so when my invisible labor becomes visible, I feel vulnerable. And then what?
Nikki The Death Doula (38:18.038)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (38:30.1)
And then what? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that opens me up to healing. You know, and I know that I don't always remember that and I have to remind myself that and like, is you, you know, kind of reference this like, it's, it's not always we focus on the negative before the positive, right? And I've had
Becky Mollenkamp (38:31.564)
Yeah, if you actually allow yourself to pass up vulnerability and really share what happens.
Nikki The Death Doula (38:56.268)
plenty of interactions with people where I've opened up and been vulnerable to them. And it was received very well. And I got exactly what I needed from it. And I felt so much more validated afterwards. So I have to remind myself of that though, because my brain, my little lizard brain wants to go to that. all those other times people were like,
Becky Mollenkamp (39:14.818)
For sure. I mean, I think we can all relate to that. And I think that's the messy reality of being human, right? And, but remembering that that is what starts to create that domino or the stacking effect of if we, each time we say, I'm not willing to be vulnerable and I'm not willing to get the help I need or share in the way I need to get validated, to get healing, to get support. I'm going to keep this little grief hidden. Those all stack up and eventually.
Nikki The Death Doula (39:25.612)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (39:37.312)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:40.568)
Like you said, it can result in something that feels far worse than the vulnerability, which is lashing out at someone who didn't deserve it or, you know, saying something we later regret or whatever it looks like. So, yeah, it's hard to always remember. But well, thank you, Nikki. I'm going to put in the show notes where everyone can learn more about you and your podcast. So if you're going through grief again, you help people through lots of forms of grief. So it's not just even though you're a death doula, that is part of what you do. But really, your work is around helping people.
Nikki The Death Doula (39:46.122)
Right, right.
Yeah, yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (40:01.472)
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:08.898)
be with their grief, whatever that grief is, and you're not someone who's going to judge the grief. Yeah. So I'll share the links to how to work with you in the show notes and also to your podcast, which is called Good Grief with Nikki, the Datsula. Thank you so much for having this conversation with me. I really appreciate it.
Nikki The Death Doula (40:13.366)
Correct. Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (40:21.701)
Thank you. Yeah, happy to be here.