Deborah: From under a palm tree

Of all the judges of Israel, Deborah is one of the most unexpected. She didn't build a platform or fight for influence—she sat under a tree. And somehow, in an era where female leadership was far from the norm, the nation came to her.

In this episode, we're joined by occupational therapist and artist Ellice Cooke to unpack the story of Deborah. We talk about what it looks like to lead without striving, why the hidden and ordinary seasons matter more than we think, and what Deborah's life reveals about how God uses unlikely people in unlikely ways. Ellice also reflects on her own experience of choosing the path that made less sense on paper—and seeing God show up in it.

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What is Living Covenant?

The characters and stories of the Old Testament form a rich tapestry, revealing both the best and worst of the human condition—and, most importantly, how God relates to us.

Based on the Living Covenant book series, this podcast explores the sometimes messy lives of those who lived under God’s first covenant, asking what these blessedly unsanitised saints can teach us about living out our faith in relationship with a God who promises never to leave us or forsake us.

Welcome to the Living Covenant Podcast, where we journey through the messy human stories of the Old Testament explore what it means to live in covenant with a promise keeping God. I'm your host, Zanita. Let's dive in. Hello everybody and welcome back to the Living Covenant Podcast.

I have a good friend with me today. We've been friends for a number of years and also housemates in three houses, is that right?

Yes. Yeah. Three, four. Also for a number of years. Yeah.

Yeah. We jumped around a lot,

unfortunately,

Yes. Good times, good stories, good times. But Ellice, for any of the people who have not had the privilege of living under the same roof with you, do you wanna just tell us a little bit about yourself and what your life looks like?

Ooh. Yes. I currently am an occupational therapist and I have lots of creative side hustles that I do for fun and a little bit of pocket money when it, when it comes.

What

are

those creative things that you do? I paint, I draw, I do pottery, photography, and I like writing as well.

And yeah, they're all pretty much just expressions to the Lord, which is really cool. Yeah. Aside from that I live in the Gold Coast. Well, I don't know. How do you sum up yourself in a few sentences?

I think that's good. Okay, cool. We'll run with that. Maybe we'll learn more about you as we go probably,

in this series. I always love asking people why they chose the characters that they did. I just think it's interesting as to why we are drawn to certain people. Mm-hmm. And you've obviously chosen Deborah. Why did she stick out to you or why did you pick her to write about?

Yeah, she is, she's an interesting character. She's just a character that's popped up for me over probably a few years and has been reoccurring.

And then, I was doing a bit of a deep dive into her a few months before, the opportunity to write this article came up. Um, I met a lady in Vietnam and she was beautiful lady named Lucy.

I met this lady named Lucy. I was like, oh, I'm pretty sure. You're a Christian. I just got that feeling about her. And then she asked if we could keep in touch and she gave me her email address. Her email address was, oh no, I shouldn't say what,

just

start getting hundred emails.

Anyway, email address was very clear that she was a Christian. And so I ended up keeping in contact with Lucy. And she would send me devotions.  And there was one day that she sent me a devotion of, it was kind of like, what's in a name and how there's names that God gives us, that aren't our actual names.

Her as a prophetess is so relevant because part of her name is literally to speak. speak. And that was part of the reason why I also chose it is because someone has told me that I'm like Deborah before.

Ah, interesting.

And so, yeah, that just made me for some reason deep dive into Deborah.  But

she's a pretty curious character in the sense of she was one of the judges of Israel. So it's in the book of judges and most of them are men.

And so why there would be a female leader for. God's nation is a, a pretty interesting notion.

Yeah.

And, and how God can use a woman as well. I think maybe she's the only female judge and she's a, yeah, so she was just, it was very curious and I didn't know much about her, so I dug and it was just really interesting.

I think even in today's 21st century, it's more normalized to have female leaders, but it's still probably not an even thing. So especially in that context, to have a female leader would've

Yeah. Been pretty violent. Yeah, if we look at today's society, I think that we're very much trying to have equality in that sense. But in this period it, was very much not the way that it goes.

And even in Jesus's time, yeah, women were seen as more of a lesser. And not as leaders as such. But then, yeah, this lady steps on the scene and it's not like she steps on the scene with a loud voice or anything like that. I think that's what I really loved about her, and I probably could relate. She actually just sits under a tree and people come to her and so. I think I actually resonate with that. 'cause I just would often just sit under a tree and read my Bible and people would come to you, oh, well maybe less part that part. Watch this space. We'll see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To, to come. But yeah, and I just really, I love that simplicity of her sitting under a tree.

But that, yeah, people recognized her qualities and then would come to her. It just seems like a, very organic thing that then she ended up speaking into the leaders of the nation but she was also respected, which was,

yeah,

just really cool.

Mm. I think there's so much to be said for people like Deborah with it and other Bible characters. You see it when Moses was, tending to sheep for like 40 years. He was just doing the mundane thing, but still really taking time to spend with God. And Deborah, she's just sitting under a tree. But there's so much important formation. Yeah. In those mundane, consistent routines.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's also Jesus, right? Yeah, totally. Yeah. For 30 years she's just living in mundane. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And so it's not like she went to. Proper test and judge school.

Mm.

To get a degree in. Yeah. Yeah. Um, did a postgrad in it or anything?

Mm

God provided what she needed to be the vessel that he intended her to be.

Yeah.

Which I just, I just love that.

Um,

because it wasn't, it's not really how we would set someone up for a position of authority, I guess, or dating or deserving of respect. Yeah. Like sit under a tree. Oh yeah. I'll respect you. Like, it just doesn't, that's not how the world really sets someone up.

Yeah. I just wanna go back to something you said when you were introducing Deborah. You said that she was one of the judges of Israel. What were the judges of Israel? Yeah, good

question. In verse five it says, the people of Israel came up to her for judgment. Whereas then in a different version, it says, and the Israelites went up to her to have their disputes decided. Hmm. So I think we can look at what we can think judging is like white, curly head wigs kind of thing. My current thought on it is  a judge was like kind of to settle the disputes between God and man.

Huh? And to bring the Israelites back to the Lord and to bring peace. And as a, a prophetess, like she was speaking words that were given from God, was a vessel for him. Hmm.

So the judges were quite spiritually respected people then, I'm guessing?

Yeah. Because it was a time when, there hadn't been a king set over Israel. So they were the, like the leaders of the nation at that time. Hmm. Yeah, because then Saul steps on the scene a bit later 'cause the people want a king.

Hmm.

You mentioned Deborah was a lady who sat under a tree and people came to her. Yeah. So she sounds like a fairly ordinary woman with a wife and children just doing her thing. I think it'd be good to get a little bit of an idea of what the story of Deborah is. So what happens after she's sitting under this tree and people are coming to her.

Yeah that's kind of how it's introduced in judges for. The book of judges goes through lists, the different judges of Israel, people that, when Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord and like turned away from him, like it was a judge that brought them back. And so she comes on the scene once Israel went against God.

She comes after names that I've never heard of before, after oth Neil Ehud and Shamgar.

Yeah. I'll leave those for your pronunciations. Not mine, Deb, but maybe that's why I chose Deborah. She's just a whole lot easier to say, just a common name.

But so she's kind of introduced as pretty simple sits under a tree. But then Nick minute, she is giving commandments to the commander of the Army of Israel , and just bringing pretty strong words and says like, has not the Lord, the God of Israel commanded you. That the commander go out and take his army to fight the enemy. And the commander he says if you go with me, I will go, but if you will not go with me, I will not go.

So the commander has trust in fake

Yeah, obviously. Yeah. Yeah. There's a bit of respect there. Mm-hmm. If all of the people of Israel came to her for judgment and that discernment, then I think she's built a bit of a name for herself, or naturally a name has been carried for her that yeah, even the commander of the Army trusts her.

I'd love to see just the behind the scenes of her life leading up to this. Because you know, we mentioned she was just sitting under a tree and people were coming to her 'cause they knew she was wise. Yeah. Yeah. So there must have been a period where so many people came to her for advice or wisdom and then saw that play out in their lives

it must have. Yeah, bore fruit. Yeah. Like her wisdom fruit. But then she was recognized or less of her being recognized, but the Lord being with her was recognized. Because I really don't wanna glorify Deborah in this, but it all comes back to God and how he works through us and how we are his vessels.

Yeah. I love what you said. You said she's recognized for her wisdom and the community acknowledges that her gift is not her own, but from God. Mm.

Yeah. I don't get the impression that she is boasting of herself No. In any way. Whereas that's where I feel like a lot of leadership these days is like you build yourself up to a certain place of authority, whereas God has a plan for us.

And if we're just resting in that and walking in that and in the confidence of who he is through us, then we're going to be led into those positions. That's what

he desires.

Mm. We don't have to strive for it.

Yeah. I think it's quite difficult not to take credit for, like, she could have easily taken credit for her wisdom, for example, because she's, I don't know, been sitting on her tree. Maybe she's been reading or thinking or pondering but the people can see it's from God, which is the thing that I find interesting. 'Cause I think even people are prone to be like, oh, they're so good at this and they're so good at that.  Yeah. Whereas they can see that it's God.

Yeah. If her words are constantly pointing back to him, then none of it kind of glorifies herself. If someone is pointing to God constantly, then he is going to get the glory from those words and there is no confusion of it being from her as well. I think my mind just goes to she must have had a deep relationship with the Lord herself, that that is just a natural overflow.

And I feel like I keep on coming back to the word vessel, must be the potter in me. But if she is like being filled up from the Lord and her own like quiet time under the tree with God. Then that is what is going to bubble up an overflow from her to those that come to her.

Hmm. Love it. What do we see from the story from that point?

I'm pretty sure they were very powerful enemy. And so that's why there was hesitancy or fear for Barack to go and approach the enemy.

So when there is instruction to go, it can be easy to not have confidence if what you are going to is intimidating and seems overpowering but with the Lord, that doesn't really matter. And so we see that they do conquer the enemy. Barack Rock goes out, follows Deborah's words and, they do take the enemy.

But then the leader of the enemy, which is sister is actually killed by another woman. So it's just by the hand of God again, because she says to the commander that it will not be to his glory being Barack for the Lord will sell Cicero into the hand of a woman, Cera being, the leader of the enemy's army.  So yeah. The Lord will sell cera. So again, his hand isn't in it all.

In your article you wrote, she walked straight up to the head honcho, military commander and told him what to do. The Lord the God of Israel commands you go take with you 10,000 men. Mm-hmm. Of I'm gonna bush this, but of Nali and zein and lead them up to Mount Tabor. Hmm. Yep. Just a few people.

But then the enemy's leader, his name is Cera, he flees. And while everyone else, it says that, in verse 16, it says that all the army of Cicero fell by the edge of the sword and not a man was left, but cera fled away on foot to the tent of jail. He went there for a bit of refuge and she ended up killing him. But 10 pegged to the temple, which isn't a good way to go.

Um, right after she gives him a skin of milk and a blanket. Yeah.

Never trust a skin of milk and blanket. Never trust someone

when they give you milk and a blanket.

Yeah. More of the story kids.

Well, it's kind of like when they ask you what's your final meal? Your death row meal. Have you ever been asked this question, what's your death row meal? I happen, as in what I would like what would you like your last meal before you die?

So what I'd like, yeah. As opposed to like what would really take me out? Yeah,

yeah, yeah. Oh, that's a hard question. Can you answer first and then I just have more time. Oof.

Honestly, maybe just a really good pizza. Oh yeah. No, I have a five that like, I definitely wouldn't say it's my favorite food, but I just feel like it's no truffle mushroom pizza from one place in Belgian New South Wales.

But nah, I feel Yeah. Good pizza. That'd be a good way to go. Truffle mushroom.

I like that.

Anyway, we digress. Ooh. A little bit.

You mentioned as you were reflecting on the story of Deborah on your, in your, in your younger elite days Yes.

And how you saw the same God in this story shop in your own life. Mm. Do you wanna tell us a little bit about that?

Yeah. I think that tangent as I was writing and reflecting, was provoked through just the evident confidence that she has in the Lord. And the way that he does pave the way for her to be  in that position. And as you said before, the curiosity of what her earlier years looked like, and the many times of sitting under the tree and whatnot. I think for myself, I see  how God has opened doors and there'd been challenging moments and that he has just more established my confidence in him.

And so  it was a very and less extravagant example than leading an army into battle. But there was just a time, when I had some different options of which ways I could go. And there was ones that made more sense because I would make more money and it would just look, sound more impressive and all those sorts of things. And for some reason it just didn't sit right. And um,

so you had different job options. Yeah.

Job opportunities. Yeah. That's a whole lot less vague, isn't it?   and at that time it was just hospitality jobs and barista jobs. But it was so cool how I recognized there was a lack of peace and I felt like it was God's, guiding of me on the path that he wanted me to take.

So I said no to the ones that made logical sense and went the other route  and I saw fruit of that. Different opportunities arose and connections and networks, that have led me to the position that I am today. And while of course that makes sense, we go a path and we'll end up walking down that path.

But yeah. It just very much resonates with more who I feel like God has created me to be and the gifts or talents or skills or whatever that he wants me to be stewarding. Yeah. Which is still being unpacked today. But I just see that time as pretty key in establishing confidence in his leading. Which is something that Deborah just seems to have that Yeah. Then like a

certainty or a trusting in God.

She has utmost certainty. My desire to see the Lord in my own life is not like there's a probable notion or an idea or a concept, but the utmost certainty that he is with me and leading me and guiding me.

Mm-hmm. And I really admire that in this lady. I think she, she does it well. So much so that she literally leads the army and goes with them. Mm-hmm. Which, I don't know, that seems kind of scary. Totally.

How do you think she got that utmost certainty? We don't know how old she is. She's obviously a mature woman of some kind. She's got a husband and children, but Yeah.

I think that's where  the hidden years.

Yeah.

They are the ones that prepare us for walking in the plan that God has for us.

Kind of like Joseph. He had those dreams that he was going to lead over his brothers. Right. And it took years before that actually eventuated. And so there was so much refinement that was necessary for him to be ready to be the leader that God already wanted him to be. But it's through those hardships of being in a prison. Like for seven years for Joseph that is that made him like the humble leader. So I would expect that was the same for Deborah.

It isn't until chapter five that it says how she was the mother of Israel . Hmm. In five, verse, seven. I, Deborah arose is a mother in Israel. And so as I pictured her sitting under the tree, I pictured her sorting out disputes of her kids, like they stole my stick sort of thing.

Probably happened and then it kind of just growing from that little seed into a bigger tree kind of thing.

Mm. Of all the judges we read about, she's the one who honors God the most and sticks the closest to his commandments.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure Deborah is one of the judges that gets the biggest writeup, to have two chapters dedicated to her story, whereas most of the other ones are even just small paragraphs. And so I was fascinated that half of her story that we get about her, and it's actually a bigger portion, is this song that she sings.

Hmm.

What is the song? Is it a song of praise?

Seems like it's a bit of a mashup of different things and I think it is fully praise and giving God the glory of what he has done. But it's also tells the narrative of what has happened as well and I think it would be a part of her gift as a being a prophetess, is then bringing the Israelites back to praising God and recognizing his goodness and what he has done for them and saving them.

But it seems like parts are poetic and symbolic and all of the things.

I highlighted something in this song I think years ago that I think is really cool. And this is how she ends the song. She says, so may all your enemies perish Lord, but may all who love you be like the sun when it rises in its strength, then the land had peace for 40 years. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

That's the fruit of her judgment is the reconciliation between Israel and the Lord was the peace and the rest. Does yours say? Peace. Peace in the land. Yeah. Land had peace for 40 years. Yeah. Mine says, and the land had rest for 40 years. Mm. That's God's intention for us. To have that peace and that rest. And then I guess we could tie that into modern day and Jesus says, my peace I give to you. Mm. Yeah. And that he does not give as the world gives. But do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

So that, that's been God's intention  for us since the get go, is that we live in peace with him, in the garden. And yeah, it was sin that broke that unity with him. And then Jesus comes and there is reconciliation with that, that we can live in his peace and in his rest.

Hmm. Love it. I'm sure there's a lot more we could take from this story. You mentioned Deborah is a bit of a boss lady, and we definitely see God work through her. But for you, what is something you've kind of walked away with after reading this story?

Ooh. What's been your takeaway from the story of Deborah?

Keep sitting under a tree.

Keep sitting

under a tree. I think it was a really good reminder and helped to reaffirm the confidence to have in the Lord and even recognizing the little or what we can sometimes perceive as little gifts that he has given us.

And how God can just use anything, in mighty ways as well. In mighty ways. Yeah. That he is not limited by our understanding. And so, for her, she was a wife, a mother, and used to sit under the palm of Deborah. And God used that to lead a whole nation. And so I found it just really inspiring also, to not limit the way that God could use things. And then that makes me want to go and write more or do pottery more and see how he uses that. Or yeah, even sing as she does because that can bring people to focus on him and that bring the restoration and the peace.

Hmm. Yeah, there's so many things you can do, like you mentioned, makes you wanna write more and do more pottery and you can obviously do those things and just do them. Like you can listen to music and jam out or you can do them with God. Yeah. And they can be really formational things. Definitely.

Yeah. And a little story on that is I did a pottery course at one stage, which I was gifted some money by some friends, so I was very humbled by that. And I wanted to be very intentional with how I used that. And so I did a term of a pottery course on a wheel. And I remember driving to that course and being like, I don't want this to be just for myself. Let Lord use this. I was gifted and blessed with this money, so

I don't know how you wanna use this, but I give this to you. And as I was doing that course, it was amazing and unexpected how he was speaking and gave me revelations of how he's the potter and we are the clay and since then, I've just seen so much intricacies in that, form of like art and expression

Hmm.

That I'm excited with  however he wants to use that, if it's what he wants to or if it was just to bless me and speak to me. But it's humbled my understandings of. Doing stuff for myself, and if we really surrender it to him, he can just use anything. And that's exciting.

Yeah. Love it. Well, we might finish it there we could keep talking about this forever. But thank you, Ellice, for your words thank you for your thoughts and for your heart and for sharing what you've gotten out of the story of Deborah. Thank you for having me. It's pleasure.