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In this episode of “Lab Medicine Rounds,” Justin Kreuter, M.D., sits down with Alaa Koleilat, Ph.D., a fellow in the Genetics and Genomics Laboratory at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota, to discuss increased representation of minorities in leadership in biomedical science and medicine.
A Mayo Clinic podcast for laboratory professionals, physicians, and students, hosted by Justin Kreuter, M.D., assistant professor of laboratory medicine and pathology at Mayo Clinic, featuring educational topics and insightful takeaways to apply in your practice.
(upbeat music)
- This is Lab Medicine
Rounds, a curated podcast
for physicians, laboratory
professionals, and students.
I'm your host, Justin Kreuter,
the Bow Tie Bandit of Blood,
a Transfusion Medicine
Pathologist at Mayo Clinic.
Today we're rounding
with Dr. Alaa Koleilat.
Dr. Koleilat is currently
a Fellow in the Genetics
and Genomics Laboratory
here at Mayo Clinic
in Rochester, Minnesota.
We'll be talking about
increased representation
of minorities in leadership
in biomedical science
and medicine for today's episode.
So thanks for joining
us today, Dr. Koleilat.
- Thank you for having me, I'm excited.
- Absolutely, this is great.
This I think for our listeners
pairs with some of our
previous episodes we have done
where we really talked with Dr. Salomao,
who is a leader in diversity,
equity, and inclusion
here in Laboratory Medicine.
So those of you that haven't
heard that episode yet,
you might go and check that
earlier episode in the stream.
And now we really wanted
to get another perspective
on some of these issues,
and that's why we're
reaching out to Dr. Koleilat.
And maybe can we get started
with what's your experience
been seeing minorities in
biomedical leadership roles?
- Yeah.
I think I would say, and
probably other individuals
of underrepresented minorities
in the field would say
it's quite limited.
I think that we've made a
lot of progress when it comes
to women in leadership roles,
although I think there's
still a good amount
of bias when it comes to
having women in positions
of authority that we could probably do
a whole other podcast on.
But for people of color
and like I said individuals
from underrepresented backgrounds,
there are far and few
in leadership positions.
And this is actually quite
distressing for myself at least
because we see an increasing
amount of DEI initiatives
across institutions and societies.
And we have a lot of
people talking about it.
But when we think about what
are some tangible outcomes
that have come out of these initiatives
in terms of increased representation,
it's hard to pinpoint many examples.
And what I'd like to
highlight for the audience
and even just to set ourselves
up is why representation
at the top positions is important.
And it's important for many reasons.
Diversity brings
creativity and innovation,
it leads to greater employee
engagement and empowerment.
These individuals that when
they get into these leadership
positions bring a breadth
and depth of experience
and perspective that
others may have not thought
of just because of their
individual and unique experiences.
And lastly, which I
think is really important
for an institution like Mayo Clinic
is these individuals mirror
possibly top tier talent
that we'd like to recruit.
So if a person of this
underrepresented background
or a minority comes to an
institution and sees nobody
that looks like them in a leadership role,
they might not feel that there's
a position for them there
or even feel like there's a road or a path
to a top position.
- I really like how you're highlighting
the critical importance of representation.
And it sparked in mind that
there are maybe a couple
of threads connecting to a
couple of previous podcasts
that we've had.
So we had a few weeks
ago, Dr. Ven Bellamkonda,
one of our emergency
medicine physicians talk
about wellbeing and connecting
to exactly some of these
aspects you're talking about,
this employee engagement
and how we can really
become this self actualized
fully realized healthcare professional.
As you're talking about
this discrepancy about
diversity, equity of inclusion,
and there's a lot of talk about it
but how we're seeing results.
I was wondering if you might share,
when are some or at what points so far
have you really been most
engaged with leadership training
so that you're set up for
great things in the future?
What have you found that
really kind of engages you,
resonates with you?
- Yeah.
In the Department of
Laboratory Medicine Pathology,
as I'm sure you know, we have
a leadership and management
course, so all the trainees
are required to take that.
And I think it's a wonderful
course when it comes
to the technical aspects of
being a laboratory director
and a leader in your institution.
But some of the things that
we don't cover in extensive,
I would say time are these soft skills
and even including a
component about diversity,
equity, and inclusion
and what that looks like
for trainees and how do we
obtain diversity in our leaders?
And also how do we make sure
that their voices are heard
when they're at the table?
Not just having representation
but having the inclusivity
part which is making sure
their voices are heard.
So there is some leadership training
that I've been exposed
to that's been helpful.
But in terms of what's been
the most effective for me
has been my one on one mentorship
with my personal mentors.
I've been fortunate to
have really great mentors
along my career path.
And when I first started
the laboratory genetics
and genomics fellowship at Mayo
Clinic, I immediately sought
out mentors that would
be able to relate to me
in ways that none of my
other mentors have before.
So in my 13 years of advanced education,
I've never had a non-White mentor.
And if you talk to anybody
that comes from a non-White
background, they'll tell
you how important it is
to have someone that can
advocate for you, that can relate
to you and experiences that you've had,
for example, microaggressions
in the workplace are a reality
for many people.
Knowing what to do about
them, when it's appropriate,
when it's not, just how to
handle some of these situations.
And as a trainee, you're
still figuring it all
out for your career and add
on this extra layer of bias
and obstacles that
minorities have to experience
on the daily.
So my mentor, Dr. Linda Hasadsri,
who is very involved in
laboratory genetics and genomics
in terms of diversity, equity,
and inclusion initiatives
has been really vital to
my leadership development.
And we talk about all aspects of
laboratory director work.
And it's not just some
of these experiences,
but really that's been the most important
and most significant for me.
And I'll add one point on that,
I know I've been rambling at this point.
Because of my experience has
been so positive with her
and really vital for my training so far,
I wanted everybody to have that.
And so I reached out to our
diversity, equity, and inclusion
division chairs, Dr. Ande
Rumilla and Dr. Neil (indistinct)
and in collaboration with them
I actually started a pilot
mentorship program within
our division for trainees
and even laboratory staff
who identify as
underrepresented minorities
or even those from
disadvantaged backgrounds.
And we've paired them up with consultants
that have volunteered their
time to serve as their mentors.
And they can talk about
anything from career goals
to personal experience or advice,
just serving as a confidential
and unique advisor to these
individuals in order to
increase workplace diversity.
So we have a lot of laboratory
staff that are interested
in advanced careers, advanced degrees
but really haven't had
one-on-one mentorship
to get them there.
And this is especially
true for individuals
of these categories that I've,
I don't mean to categorize people,
but of this group that I'm
specifically interested in
to help them get to their career goals.
- Well, that's wonderful.
I'm curious if we can dive
down that a little bit,
'cause maybe some people are listening
and don't have that
kind of a program set up
but are interested.
Is there one or two insights for what
is helpful to make it work
and is there a good first
and second step that folks
might do for launching something
similar at their place?
- Yeah.
So we just launched the program in January
and we have 16 participants,
eight mentees and eight mentors.
And really what I did first,
and I hope that this can
actually serve as a template
for other divisions to either
build on it or change it
in any way that they see fit for their own
laboratory environment.
So the hope is that other
programs will utilize this.
But what I did was really just ask around,
I saw that there was a need
I saw that we didn't
have anything like this.
I literally went around the lab and said,
"If we had a program like
this, would you participate?"
And a lot of fellows and laboratory staff
were very interested and said,
"Yeah, of course, I'd love
to have something like this."
And especially our consultants
who have an extreme amount
of experience and a network
that they could tap into,
there's like a lot of rich knowledge
that our consultants have.
And a lot of times they're just waiting
for someone to ask them.
I got a couple consultants to help promote
this initiative.
And I sent out a survey
actually to the entire division
and said, "Who's interested
in something like this?
What are your roles?
I'd be more than happy to
share the initial survey
with whoever's interested."
It was just a Google form.
what are some strengths?
What are some things
you'd like to talk about?
And then I just went in
and paired people up.
And we are doing a six
month evaluation in June
of both the mentor and
the mentee to see how
the mentorship went.
But overall, I've seen a
lot of positive feedback.
Everybody's been meeting
at least once a month
with their mentee.
And I think it's a very
easy thing to set up,
it didn't really take a lot of time.
So if someone's interested,
I'd be more than happy to share
the details of it all,
but I'm hoping and I think
that the impact will be great.
- It's excellent.
If there are people that may not have,
like I'm a program director
and and I'm a White guy
and is there something I should do
or do you think automatically
about when I have a mentee
come in that comes from an
underrepresented minority
or from a disadvantaged background.
Do you recommend, but maybe
that's part of that initial
conversation of would
you like me to identify
a mentor for you from a
diversity perspective?
- Yeah, I love that you
asked that question,
because a lot of people do find themselves
in those positions and like,
"I wanna be an ally, what do I do?"
Like, "I'm not a person of color
but I wanna support my
friends or my fellows."
And I think that that's great.
Yes, do that.
When I was interviewing
and being recruited
for this position, if I was
told that there's a mentorship
program specifically for
minorities, I'd be like,
"Wow, that means that they
actually find that valuable."
That means that they're doing something
for these individuals,
because they recognize
that there are increased
amount of obstacles
for these people to get to where they are.
Yes, I think definitely
ask if your fellows
or your residents, or whoever
is interested in a mentor,
maybe put it that way
and help facilitate that.
Because also a reason for
the program that we started
is not everybody's an
extrovert and we'll go out
and just ask for a mentor like I did.
I understand, my husband's an introvert,
so I know all about introverts,
but that sometimes they
need to be approached.
And that's also a very
important leadership style.
We should have introverts as
well in leadership positions
and they deserve also to have mentors.
Yeah, I think if the
program director is willing,
definitely reach out.
- Well, thank you for actually getting
at what the core of my question was.
And I think you're very
insightful to really back me up
that it's not just that
orientation meeting,
but that it sounds like this
could actually be a very great
recruitment tool because
I know a lot of us
are very interested in
recruiting successfully
a very diverse community of learners,
because of exactly what
you're saying about
creativity that comes out
and ingenuity and
engagement in the workforce.
- Yeah, I definitely agree.
- If we can turn then to the
broader audience listening here
and Dr. Koleilat, what advice
would you like to share
with the underrepresented
minority student,
trainee learners who are
listening to this podcast?
- Yeah, there's a lot
I would love to share,
but excuse me, I'll keep it concise.
Get involved, that's really
the biggest thing I can say
is we have to be the first
advocates for ourselves.
And although allies
are extremely important
in having other people share
our sentiments and validate
what we're feeling, no
one's gonna fight for you
more than yourself and for your community.
And it can be tiring
and emotionally draining
to constantly have to be
that voice, I understand.
So when you do feel like that, step back,
take a break and then reengage,
but also meet with your
leaders in your division
and in your program.
And you'd be surprised
how many people really
do want to help you with your initiative
and help make change.
So be bold, reach out
to your division chair,
reach out to your department
chair and make it known
that this is a priority,
that this is a necessity.
And until we as a
community view increasing
minority representation
and leadership position
as like a critical,
immediate, urgent need,
nothing's gonna change.
It's really gonna be very slow.
So we need to have this
sense of urgency and a sense
of a motivation to really
try to accomplish this
in the best way possible.
And things even something small,
it doesn't have to be this
huge initiative that takes
years to implement.
Something as small as just
pairing people up from a little
survey that I sent on
Google could be of benefit.
And you won't know until you try.
- Awesome.
We've been rounding with Dr. Koleilat.
Thank you so much for really demonstrating
for our audience your
leadership skills in this area.
And I think hopefully
along with your themes
that you're saying for take
home points, advocate, be bold,
run with this sense of urgency.
I hope that this podcast
really serves as a point
for critical reflection
and sparks some thoughtful
changes at your institutions.
- [Alaa] Yeah.
So thank you so much, Dr. Koleilat.
- Thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate it.
- To all of our listeners,
thank you for joining us today.
We invite you to share your thoughts
and suggestions via email.
Please direct any suggestions
to mcleducation@mayo.edu
and reference this podcast.
If you enjoy Lab Medicine Rounds podcast,
please subscribe.
Until our next rounds together,
we encourage you to continue
to connect Lab Medicine
and the clinical practice
through insightful conversations.
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