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Video killed the pedagogical teaching star... or did it? We dive into talk about video, media, and more for teaching and learning related to Chapter 12 on this episode.
25 Years of Ed Tech is a serialized audio version of the book 25 Years of Ed Tech, written by Martin Weller of the Open University and published by AU Press. The audio version of the book is a collaborative project with a global community of volunteers contributing their voices to narrate a chapter of the book. Bonus episodes are a series of conversations called "Between the Chapters" to chat about these topics and more!
"In this lively and approachable volume based on his popular blog series, Martin Weller demonstrates a rich history of innovation and effective implementation of ed tech across higher education. From Bulletin Board Systems to blockchain, Weller follows the trajectory of education by focusing each chapter on a technology, theory, or concept that has influenced each year since 1994. Calling for both caution and enthusiasm, Weller advocates for a critical and research-based approach to new technologies, particularly in light of disinformation, the impact of social media on politics, and data surveillance trends. A concise and necessary retrospective, this book will be valuable to educators, ed tech practitioners, and higher education administrators, as well as students."
Credits:
Text in quotes from the book website published by Athabasca University Press CC-BY-NC-ND
BG music Abstract Corporate by Gribsound released under a CC-BY license. Track was edited for time.
Artwork X-Ray Specs by @visualthinkery is licenced under CC-BY-SA.
Audio book chapters produced by Clint Lalonde.
Between the Chapters bonus podcast episodes produced by Laura Pasquini.
0:03
Between the chapters, a weekly podcast discussion focusing on a chapter of the book, 25 years of edtech, written by Martin Weller. here's your host, Laura pasquini.
0:15
Welcome. We're at chapter 12, video 2005. And I'm here with Lee Skallerup, Bessette and 2005. Seems so long ago now that I look at this Lee, how are you? How's it going?
0:29
I'm okay, now you just made me depressed about 2005 15 years ago. That was the year I actually got married. That was the year I got married. That was the year that we moved to the states for my husband to start his PhD. So like, it's just there's the personal life that is happening in that year. And then also the like, Oh, yeah, YouTube started like that's, that's the thing. I'm
0:54
here. I'm yeah, on that. I have truth be told. We're both the two Canadians on this podcast that moved to America. I was in the US then I worked overseas in Europe for American institution. Back then, when my French was strong on francais I worked in nonce and Paris. And yeah, this is what I started like my online life of blogging. We've talked about this before, personally, you and I. Yeah, yeah. So we're gonna talk about how video didn't kill the video star in this. This chapter, Martin wrote, talks about, like, how video became present in learning and part of it, the educational technology aspect of it, the biggest jump he talks about right away is YouTube. So some examples, I'll just read it from the chapter. And you can listen to that full chapters at the time YouTube was 62% of the users are male, 80% of the YouTube users are from outside the US and millennials at the time, prefer this over traditional television. So YouTube came on the scene, and has been some form of not only education piece, but just leisure and watching and going through. And so I don't know what you thought about the start of YouTube itself, or how you used it, Lee, but what were your thoughts, just in general, before we jumped to the learning aspect of it?
2:21
I mean, I think that all of this sort of stuff sort of happened. And again, like it's I think about YouTube and thinking back 2005 that's when moved to the States, Facebook was just starting up as well. where I started, I only, you know, the next chapter is web 2.0. I got on Twitter in 2001. Did I get 2010, early 2010. And so there's that five year period between 2005 and 2010. That's when I had both my kids. I finished my dissertation, I defended my dissertation, I started adjunct team. So I'm sort of like, yeah, I guess all that stuff happened at the same time, I don't, you know, I don't have a lot of memory of it until, because everything was just moving really quickly, as well. Just in terms of like life, you know, I think I was still in the mindset at that point that I was going to be I was going to be an academic, right. And so my focus was on I'm going to finish my dissertation, I'm going to adjunct I'm going to do these things. But I still remember I remember what this is a moment during this period was in 2005, was probably around 2007, or eight, where I had a student write a paper, or a student of mine, I didn't have a writer, she suggested she wrote a paper. And she was comparing what was going on in the novel to the jazz music that was also being produced at that time, and, and was linking in her in her
3:50
submission in
3:50
her essay to clips on YouTube, of music of that being performed. And, of course, losing the richness of that if she had handed it in on paper, right? And then that really got me thinking about well, how could we How could students be communicating their knowledge differently and doing something like this, which is obviously a great essay, but like bringing the richness in of it, they're like, it's not I just don't want to talk about the music. I want you to listen to the music while you're doing it while you're reading this essay to be able to understand really what it is what I'm saying. So I think that was probably my first introduction to YouTube as a possible educational tool.
4:31
Right?
4:32
Yeah, sure. I used it to like, look stuff up on how to do things or like watch movie trailers on it or something like that, but it was just sort of within that ecosystem of like, Oh, this is something you can just watch online. Okay. Yeah,
4:45
I think I agree with like, how Martin talking with such optimism at that time. So 50 years ago, things were bright. In 2006 I moved back to Canada. I worked at University of Toronto and then academic advising Career Center and I thought the possibilities of video were great for simple tutorials. And that's what we use them to, like I was at a center where we did web tutorials on like, how to calculate your GPA? Or what do I do with my life? Like what major Should I pick and like it was to introduce our light Learning Library or career library. It was also introduced, like, how to set up a resume. So I thought that was really great ways to introduce especially videos to showcase like simple frequently asked questions or self help kind of things. So my advising or career counseling could go deeper. Like I thought that was good starters and introductions to the place. And so I like you had hopes for lots of different social media for that at the time. And video was one that I thought for learning and I wasn't teaching and learning in the classroom at the time yet, but I thought about the possibility of it going along with elearning to go, Oh, I could show them how to do something in a visual way, and explain our way and make sense. And I thought like this chapter talks about, we have the possibility to democratize these resources that have kept behind some sort of paywall or pay for service or pay for someone else to produce this video clip. And that was the first time like, I got my first like Mac thing at work. And we proposed to pilot and create some of these videos. So it was myself and some student workers, putting these together and figuring out the tools together. And it was really us all in the sandbox doing this work at the time. And production was like somewhat easier. It's much easier now. But it was like the learning curve wasn't as steep. And we could figure it out on the figure how to present. And I think that's where this chapter talks about everyone else who start use it for tutorials like Khan Academy, or for ways you could share things like notes and books and things like that shifted to whose voices were present and video became really popular. And I don't know, for 2005 is when it happened in learning. But I know, like, I thought 2006 and seven is when I started piloting a couple things with video. And I was just like, Wow, this is amazing. And I never saw like the other things down on the dark rabbit hole, what would come up platforms like YouTube, and other spaces that how they we get used to promote other voices or misinformation and things like that.
7:22
Yeah, so my kids, like, that's all they watch now as YouTube. Like, they don't watch television. I have to beg them to put down their phones to watch TV. Right? Like, we're I remember. You know, I remember growing up where it was like, turn off the TV right now I'm like, come on, kids put down your phones, let's all watch TV together, come on, like we all just watch a TV show together. And you know, just the proliferations and the things that they watch. Our you know, like those on the unboxing videos and play throughs that's what my son watches. He watches endless video game playthroughs, my daughter that makes my daughter watches makeup tutorials and nail tutorials, you know, and they have the these these vloggers who are, you know, one of the people she's Canadian actually simply illogical, based out of Ottawa, it was doing nail art. And somebody suggested, hey, you should put these video tutorials up on YouTube. Now she has her own line of nail polish. You know, all of these kinds of things. And so it's it's really interesting how some of it is still about that around tutorials. I'm trying to learn to sew right now. And let me tell you YouTube has been as you know, just a saving grace for me where I'm like, how do i do i don't understand French seem and I can read the directions, but I'm not very good visually. So the diagram doesn't make sense to me in two dimensions. So I watched it on YouTube. And I'm like, oh, okay, now I understand. So I think there's still some of that there. I think it has been wonderful for community building online, because there has been space for other voices, particularly queer communities. In terms and and, you know, shared interests that were marginalized in the past, you know, have gotten a lot more visible. But yeah, I mean, I'm constantly wondering what the algorithm is suggesting, to my kids and trying to like, we have a really open conversation where, you know, we want them to talk about the things that they've heard on YouTube or that they've seen on YouTube to try and just sort of have the counter disinformation if there's any. But if there's one good thing about both my children having ADHD is that if they're not interested in it, they just ignore it. Like literally like it. He's like, no, this isn't a video game. playthrough this is you know, you know, conspiracy theories. I don't care about conspiracy theories. Can you show me another playthrough like, so it's
9:57
really
9:57
it's it's really interesting sort of thing where You know, I'm, I'm vigilant and we talk about it. But at the same time I watch the way my kids interact with it. And if it's not exactly what they're looking for, they literally don't care. And so, you know, it's been a, it's been an interesting window to see within 15 years, how my children, you know, age 11, and 13 are consuming YouTube. So that's been really, really interesting.
10:23
The possibilities with video are endless, and like this chapter is even talk about the other things that are out now. So like, I think of vine back in the day, what goes on Twitter, and I think about Instagram stories, which are also Facebook stories and moments, and then also Tick Tock now, and I work at a company that's having a new one launch in a few weeks. So like, I think of all the ways that video just perpetuates Our lives are ever growing and becoming normalized and democratized with small screens, right? So we have mobile phones, tablets, other devices that record every laptop now as a camera, that wasn't a thing back then.
11:01
So no, no like, and I mean, even just getting the videos off, we still have old flip
11:06
phones, right?
11:08
Because one of the first videos of my daughter as she was born is on my flip phone. But there was no way to get it off your flip phone at the time, right? Like because you didn't have the bandwidth of the cellular power to be able to send it anywhere. So we just have this flip phone where it's just like, why do we still have this? Oh, because we have a video of my daughter on here.
11:25
As he's talking about flip phones. This chapter talks about flipped learning. And we know inverse learning flipped learning wherever you want to call it has going on for a while and doesn't require videos per se. But there has been a push lately. And this, this chapter talks about how videos are started to be used for different courses, and different practices for lectures. What's not in this book that I thought we could talk a little bit about his videos today in 2020, video school, some people call it zoom school. Web conferencing is a thing. And it's becoming a growing thing. And I don't I don't know how I feel about always being watched. Like, I'm happy to talk to you, my friend about this topic and chapter because I know you're pretty passionate about it. So what's video like in learning today in your household, if you want to share?
12:21
Yeah, no. And I think that this is one of the biggest changes as bandwidth has increased. And computing capabilities have increased is, you know, in 2005, and right up until only a few years ago, it was all asynchronous, right? It's all asynchronous video, it's I'm going to record something, I'm going to upload it to YouTube, and you're going to watch it later. or whenever you want. Maybe there was some rare live streamed events. But really, ultimately, it was it was all asynchronous. I mean, that was the idea of the flipped classroom. But I mean, we've had asynchronous video is for as long as we've had moving pictures. As soon as we had moving pictures. We had educational videos, movies, right? The real the film real right? We make fun of those old black and white educational videos are not videos, but like real now. Yeah. Thank you.
13:20
pictures for years, it just looks different. And it's more available these days. Exactly right.
13:26
Like we can now you can make it with your phone, whereas not everyone could have made an instructional film back in the day. But But I think again, that biggest that biggest technology isn't just about the hardware in terms of anybody can make a video, but now it's anybody can stream a video live.
And so you end up with this new kind of shift in pedagogy, or I should say lack of their of shift in pedagogy where when COVID-19 happens, there was zoom, and everybody was like, great, I can just run my class the way I always have run it, just over zoom with synchronous video.
14:11
And
14:13
it didn't work, right. It didn't work. The faculty were exhausted, the students were exhausted, everybody. In terms of accessibility, it didn't work because not everybody has access to the right amount of bandwidth to be able to stream videos. There was again, this idea of surveillance, everybody has to have the camera on. Everybody has to be looking at the screen at all times. Right? no distractions in the background, all these kinds of rules and regulations. And it was really about control, right, which on one hand, I can understand because this was an really traumatic experience for everyone. And one of the ways that faculty were coping was to try and control the things they felt they could or should be controlling. Right, which is usually their classroom setting, and now their classroom setting and it's virtual, it's on zoom. So this is, this is what we're gonna use, we're gonna use streaming video. Rather than taking the opportunity to use it to challenge their pedagogy and challenge their delivery methods for what was best for the given situation. And so that that was that was something that was sort of when I pitched this, I was pitching it. And I sort of glibly said, I want to talk about how video is the worst thing that has ever happened to online learning or to learning. I'm not because I don't think video has this really strong potential. But I think video particularly streaming video, live streaming video, synchronous video has become a crutch, right? Where we are using it to just recreates pedagogies that may or may not be effective in a virtual learning environment when we know that they are not effective in a virtual learning environment for online learning. So it's really in the past few years become this crutch for trying to quote unquote, recreate the live classroom experience.
16:18
Video killed the teaching pedagogical star. Yeah, I'm with you. I use mentioned bandwidth as a technology thing and access point, I also think the cognitive bandwidth, we are all struggling because this chapter talks about that we've become broadcasters, and no one's really trained unless they teaching media and journalism on how to do that. And nor do we want people to be streaming on Facebook on Twitch like there's some sort of performance aspect of it. That's not always good for teaching, and not for every style of teaching, or even kind of materials or ways to teach and learn. I think you're right, we've gone and said, Let's hit record. I'm just gonna lecture and use there are some great tools that you could do that like I think Panopto I think about just capturing things. But why would you want to maybe livestream a three hour lecture when you want to know one concept, you can teach us the synced way for five to 10 minutes, and then stop the recording, have a conversation. So like, I think there's other ways we can use video that you and I are using right now to record a podcast, it will only be audio, but we know that we can have that face to face meeting. So video is apparent. When it's broadcasted, you do put yourself out there and the end of the chapter just loosely touches upon like issues that might come out there. So misinformation polls privacy. And I also think when we livestream and broadcast, we always skip over accessibility and universal design. So are you making your class really multimodal? Are you downloading that video, mp3 file and then getting a transcript? And then putting closed captions? Are you also thinking about learners that have to maybe pick up and go because they can't always stream on like live or online? So can they download it? Is your classroom also portable? Those are the things that I think about, they get lost with all I can just hit record and work good. And that it's
18:20
Yeah, and I think about those very same things. I mean, one of my formative experiences when I was teaching this when I went to Morehead State, which is in, you know, in Appalachia in Kentucky, and our service area are like the poorest zip codes in in the country, right? This is rural Appalachia. And these are students and not just not just in terms of poverty, of which there was quite a bit, but also just access, right. So even if your family was solidly middle or upper class, and whatever town in Eastern Kentucky you happen to live in, you couldn't even purchase high speed internet access, right? It just wasn't available to you, you could get dial up and that was it. And so I was excited about using technology, and things like video in the classroom and but then really quickly had to figure out workarounds because students would go home over the weekend, and not have access to any of the things any of the materials. You know, they couldn't access the LMS, which is another chapter all together. But I mean, just that larger question of bandwidth and access of like, if they can't even access the videos, or like download even just a simple PDF, right or, like, upload the LMS like have the LMS load properly. Like there's some real issues and I think that that's something that a lot of people are finally concretely realizing with COVID-19 where it always existed as a abstract sort of thought, where it's like, yes, we know that there's a digital divide, and we know that there are access issues. But until their students went home, and we're literally like, I got to go to the McDonald's parking lot, I've got to, you know, or, or wherever else, or I just can't have my camera on or, you know, my laptop is fine for typing papers, but I cannot, it doesn't have the the computing capacity to, to, you know, stream a video to stream zoom. It became very, it became very evident in a way that, like I said, finally made it concrete for a lot of people in their heads, whereas conceptually, they understood, but there there was no impetus to really do anything about it. Because they didn't think of that's not my students, though. Right. Those are
20:47
the democratization of video has been good, but it's also uncovered the inequities, right, so we know that not everyone, my students use a laptop, some use their phones, actually to type papers, we know that, yeah, there's not going to be access to streaming or we should have the expectation there on camera because they might have to literally like me hide in a closet to do some of the work or do things in a call because a baby's sleeping or, you know, like, there's so many other ways that we've had to adjust our own home life, that's now also our work life. It's also our school life. And compartmentalizing, that is difficult. So I you brought up a great point earlier is making people be on camera and look a certain way. And I have never done that I like in when I was like you show up how you show up? Because Yeah, we all have different things going on. And I I think that expectation, there is kind of like a netiquette the virtual etiquette of, well, how are we going to show up in our class meetings? Or do I really want to control everyone in you everyone coming in? Or do I maybe want to just record a shorter lecture and then have a time where we can converse and not be recorded and put out there, because sometimes those videos, we don't want to be public, if you are having real conversations about topics, issues, contentious issues, I would think that my students wouldn't want themselves put online, even if they didn't have their name on there. They don't want to put themselves out there the same way other people might.
22:17
Well, there's also this idea as well around students who have gone home, and might not be able to talk about these things, right? where their views, beliefs, what are the conclusions they have drawn about themselves, about politics, about religion, about gender identity about any of these kinds of contentious topics, even about, say biology and evolution? Right? That they can be going home, and they can no longer talk about these things? Right, they can talk because their parents are listening, for better or for worse, you know, and so you're sometimes putting students in dangerous situations or unsafe situations. Um, if when you are demanding that they participate, right, in these kinds of discussions, there's also we have international students, right, where it is illegal for them to discuss or read or partake, when they're back home, in, in certain activities, right, we think of students from China. You know, when and other authoritarian countries where, you know, their their lives, it is literally breaking the law to discuss and take part in the class. Right, right. And so, like, you don't want that recorded, you don't even want that streamed, and you know, people are like, Oh, well just ask them to use a VPN. And it's like, Yeah, but that's the, you know, I mean, there's, there's implications of that, too. And so like, there's this whole, you know, there's there's, there's the accessibility issue in terms of just bandwidth, but then there's also the accessibility issue in terms of legality in terms of home life situation. You know, I think it was tressie and roxx, Trustee, Trustee, McMillan, cottom and Roxane Gay in their podcast here to slay. They were talking, they did two special episodes around COVID-19 in education. And you know, I don't remember who said it, but it was like, just because they have two parents and a roof over their head doesn't necessarily mean that that safe. Right? Right. And so we make all of these assumptions
24:37
about
24:38
our students. And you know that that's not necessarily the reality and they don't necessarily have to disclose that to us. And I don't necessarily want them to disclose that to us. But then how do we bring video into their lives either synchronous or asynchronous in a way that's safe for them right away that's accessible. So I worry a lot about the safety of our students when it comes to these kinds of things. Thanks for bringing that up. I
25:05
do think there are ways to do that. I think of like, I've started putting things as a educator, I start putting things on Vimeo, which is ad free, it's not YouTube, they have advanced privacy options as an option. So other ethical alternatives and resources. There's also like things like peer tube, which is people can share open source at free video hosting. So I think about places that might still be access, because my learners that I teach now are in different parts of the world that they can't get things on social media sites that are typically North American us centric. So I also worry about just if I'm getting the message across and just video, can they access in different points? So why can I take from a video that's short? Just the audio clip? Just the PowerPoint? If I'm using more and more visual like, what do I just have that in a how to guide like a job aid is what I use for my learners? So how are you thinking about video and when you because I know that you help and support lots of faculty think about their digital lives in their teaching, what advice you give to them, whether it's using a web conference platform, or creating a video for learning, what are some things that you kind of give advice on?
26:18
So one of the things that one of the central sort of tenants that I tried to get them to think about is, I haven't think about how they maximize their time together. And one of the ways that I have them do that is I give them a call that the seminar adaptation template. And I basically just stole it from the K to 12. Right? Where K to 12 have a very long history and culture of lesson planning. We do not have a culture of lesson planning in higher education. And so I basically made this sheet that was that divided up their course in 15 minute increments, and with columns and say, okay, what's the activity you're doing? What's the type of engagement? And what I meant by engagement? Is it student to student? Is it student faculty? Or is it student content? What's the learning outcome that this is a line to like, why are you doing this? And then how important is this done? That this be done synchronously, right, and getting them to think about what is just straight up content delivery,
27:19
and
27:19
maybe that could be a short video instead that the students watch ahead of time? You know, maybe it's an activity that they can do asynchronously outside of the class after the discussion. But getting them to really prioritize what are the things that absolutely have to happen when we're together? And what does that together time look like? versus what could be done asynchronously, either through video through podcast through, you know, active reading, you know, we have so many great engagement tools,
27:52
you know,
27:53
I think of hypothesis for annotating readings, you know, that even Minnesota came out as for a long time has had a free tool called video and, and it's a video annotation tools used, it works just with YouTube, but you know, that's fine. For some, so that you can have that engagement still in an asynchronous way, where they're, you're creating opportunities for students asynchronously, on their own time, in their own ways to engage with the content materials. That way, when you do come together, usually through zoom, because that's what we pay for at our institution. You know, to think really, critically about that time together and say, how are we going to spend this time? Is it going to be breakout rooms? Is it absolutely essential that everybody has their camera ons? Why? Is it absolutely essential that, you know, what do you what are you doing together? What are you trying to accomplish during your time together? And so that's one of the ways that I'm thinking about it in terms of accessibility is his like, what are all of those other things that can happen elsewhere on a student's own time? And what are the things that we want? Absolutely, to have happen? Live? And, and what do those live things look like? Because it doesn't look like a classroom anymore. So what what are we doing with this space? So that's, that's the sort of the sort of activities that those are the kinds of activities I want faculty to think about. And, you know, it comes down to when we're in a classroom, where the faculty are the arbiters of engagement, right? Like, that's one of the things that they say they really miss about video, as as a mode is that well, I don't know, whatever, you know, I get a feel for the room, right? I can't get a feel for the room. When I'm online. I can tell when people are paying attention when they're not I can see when they're engaged and they're not. And so, in this and this doesn't just go for video, this goes for online, generally online learning is they are no longer the arbiters. They're the facilitators of it. There are the designers of it like so all of the work has to take place in very careful design decisions around accessibility around maximizing time together around learning outcomes. And that's just, again, something we're not used to doing in higher education. And so that's why I say like, the video became a crutch, right? Where I can just do everything that I always do in class online, on zoom, or Google Hangout, or meets or whatever they're calling it now or, you know, WebEx,
30:26
wherever the kids are on the web conferencing. And it's interesting you say that, but I am like, so I am a designer. And they've always thought of this in higher ed and Ed technology is think of it but yourself being a small producer, you should be creating like a story line, a story about what you're going to produce, what that learning objects going to look like. And can it be reusable on in marketing, they call it evergreen, a reusable piece of material in in the high quality video, whether it's you talking head talking about something like I even encourage somebody that faculty and teachers to think about if they have a green screen, they could have one like I usually have some one behind. Or if they want to even do a screencast on something they want to show online or about the course that in good quality, and you can use it every semester for that course. And then you have reusable objects in other spaces, they might talk about a concept or present an idea. So I always think about, think about as a small mini video production, and what would you do to do it the best you could. And that way, you don't have to do it again later. So it does take a lot of planning, design upfront things, but then you have it later. And it's reusable. It's accessible, it's downloadable, and you can have in multiple formats. So you can pick it out of your course, and use it somewhere else.
31:46
Yep. And one of the things so I was I was talking with, you know, we've been working a lot with, of course, with faculty all summer and all of that and trying to plan for the fall. And so we were in one case, we were talking about doing exactly that, like Could you just record your lecture ahead of time, right and have a script and it'll go much faster. Trust me, something that usually takes 15 minutes is not going to take 15 minutes, if you're just doing it. Voiceover PowerPoint, um, and then you know, then you can jump right into the discussion once you get in, because, you know, we use Panopto. So you can have, they can do discussions and Panopto. I hate the name. But anyways, they do discussions in in Panopto, that you can annotate the video, you can have conversations, you can ask questions, you also get metrics, if that's something that matters, because how do I know if they've watched the videos will their metrics? You know, but so I had this faculty member and say, No, well, what I actually want to do instead is all go through my PowerPoint presentation, and then whatever we don't have time to cover during our class time together all record that. And I said, okay, but then how are you going to reuse that? Like, that's not that that's not reusable? And she's like, Well, why would I want to reuse it? We're just going back into the classroom, you know, again, in the spring, and I was like, Huh, like, and I think that that's one of the things like people who do online learning or do online learning regularly. We think that way, right? We think about reusability. In this particular moment, it's been really difficult to get faculty who don't typically teach online to think about reusability because they're just in their minds. This is a temporary thing. I'm just doing this once. And I'm never gonna do it again. So why would I produce anything that could be reused?
33:42
Yeah, and it's interesting you say that on the other way video is used and is talked to in this chapter a little bit is around students creation of videos, and I actually taught a couple classes where it was pretty high video impact. So I have some of these tools and resources like a green screen, and some like weird, like holding of mic stands. And camera stands, because my students would do presentations. And I had the same class online as I did in person. And I would do encourage, like, little DIY hacks for my learners to learn. And it was more about less about the quality of the video and more about the what they learned about their self presentation, things they would reflect on. So I didn't care if their lighting wasn't great. Well, we talked a bit about that. But it was about getting a message across sharing, there's really good story in a different way. And then they had another one of their choice. And all of these wrap into what's coming up in the next chapter. This is my prelude to the next podcast is portfolios, the E portfolio idea of what do you walk away from as a learner in a course that you might have created? And how can you show to like, I know a future employer or colleagues, something you've created and be really proud of. And video is one way to showcase that right because we're going to have these online selves in some shape or form. So what they choose to create? What if they came out of a class creating a really cool artifact, a video documenting something of video of presentation that they're they're really proud of? I don't know. So I think about video in that sense of our students being creators, because maybe that's something they'd be interested in doing and offering it in different ways is what I was thinking about and how they could present I guess, and video is one of them. It's not the only one, but I thought that was something I was thinking of lately.
35:28
Yeah, no. And I mean, you're, you're preaching to the choir on this one, right? Like, I've worked at dome domain once out in schools. And so we were all about creation, and student driven creation. And I think the video essay can be a really powerful tool, I don't think that, you know, I'm accomplished person. My PhD is in comparative literature. Obviously, I love text I write my default is text. But, you know, it doesn't just have to be text, right? Um, you can make a really compelling argument using multimodal composition techniques, which includes video essays. And I, you know, I don't buy into the digital native myth, obviously, but our students are very often creating content, whether they know it or not, right? They are on tik tok creating content. Um, they're on YouTube creating content, um, you know, even if they're mimicking their, you know, the, the people that they admire on that, but that's what we all do, right? Even the writers we start writing by mimicking the style of the writers that we admire. And our students are mimicking the styles of the tick talkers, or YouTubers that they admire and watch. Which is fascinating to me, because I'm just like, it sounds exactly like that youtuber it watches possessively huh. Okay, so that's the thing. And I mean, tick tock is all about, you know, the mimicking, right, the tick tock dance, while we're going to do the tick tock or the tick tock challenges, and so they're, they're already thinking about these things, even if you know, even if it is in informal spaces. And, you know, it reminds me basically on mine when I taught writing, and used to talk about code switching with them, right, where they were like, well, I don't know how to, and I'm like, you do know how to do it, because you wouldn't describe your weekend to your best friend, and the same way that you would describe your weekend to your grandmother. Right? Yeah. And so it's thinking about those lessons that they've learned doing Tick Tock doing YouTube, because they are picking up some of the skills, right, they are picking up some of those some of the ways to think critically, not critically, but think about how do I make a good video, right? What makes a good Tiktok video? What makes a good youtuber YouTube video, and they're trying to mimic those things? So then how do you get those sorts of lessons, you know, surface them, make them think about them? And then have them transfer that into academic work? Right, because I think they are transferable skills in that sort of sense. But, you know, I mean, I, I love it, I, you know, I, I teach an online class, I've taught this for just this online class for a couple years now. I ditched the essay altogether, all of their projects are multimodal or video projects. Only writing they do is reflective writing, where they reflect on the process of these kinds of things. And you know, I just there's the level of engagements is much, much higher, I find because they have this sort of freedom and flexibility to play with the how they, how they deliver the content, how they deliver their learning, that they don't have if I just said you have to write an essay and have seven references and you know,
38:47
all that kind of stuff. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm in teaching courses or doing trainings now for folks, I will say I am cognitive, not always having video, but being an instructor or facilitator, video and other media do bring you into the class like it's a way to develop rapport. It's a way that my students, my learners, my participants actually engage and whether it's, they see me once or they hear my voice, there's things that they pick up from video of instructors, and there is that social presence. I love that like Patrick loewenthal and others talk about the ways you can have a presence online and video is one and and we know it's popular because 2005 videos came out and that informed what we love and do now is streaming services in all areas of our life of video. So video, just encourage more video of streaming and it's going to be around and I love how you think and encourage others to be more thoughtful and intentional of well how do you want to come together in real time a synchronously synchronously the different modes of video doesn't have to be the same. And so again, you could think about that and in our pedagogy planning and design. I think that'd be fantastic. Lee, so thank you so much for sharing some of your thoughts. So we're not down like hating the video totally, we just want people to be a bit more clever with it.
40:14
For, as you said, purposeful, right? A little bit more purposeful, a little bit more mindful. You know, really just thinking about it in like, why am I using video? Is video The best way that I can be doing this thing? Or is there another way that I could be doing it? You know, and maybe it is, maybe it is social reading instead? Right? Maybe we go back to text. For some of this there. It doesn't all have to be video. If you're just reading PowerPoint slides, why don't you just give them the slides that they can read on their own? Right? No, I mean, it's a doesn't have to be are there interesting visuals? Or can we just sit and listen to it, especially now with everybody with screen fatigue and zoom fatigue? Like what could be audio only, you know, there is still, you know, there are studies that have shown that even that the students in online courses, even completely asynchronous ones, just having the ability to see the faculty members face in a video and see their, you know, is it helps with engagement, and they report being more engaged and more likely to know, but there's also something really intimate, which is, I think, why podcasting is has seen a such an explosion, there's something intimate of having somebody right in your ears.
41:34
Right.
41:36
And so again, it's thinking about the the, the wide array of media, and that we have access to to be able to create to share with our students, the tools that exist to allow students be able to engage with that material, where video is just one of many ways that we are engaging with our students, and not a crutch to become the only way that we're engaging with our students. And the only way we're measuring engagement with our students. So I think that that's, that's something I want faculty to really think about is that there there's a whole spectrum of media that we can use, not just video. I love that.
42:15
And I might be biased because I have a few podcasts. But I do think and it's not podcasts are actually mentioned in a chapters, but I do think video has influenced what we do and create. And there's, this has been 15 years coming of video in edtech. Maybe we're getting there and we can do videos better. And it's not better production or higher quality. It's being more meaningful, purposeful and intentional with those videos. And anyone listening to this, if you have suggestions, you can tweet at Martin Weller. He would love to know more. And talk to us, Lee and I will put a link to Leonardo's Twitter handle in the show notes. And maybe a couple of things we mentioned on this reminds me as you talked about podcasts like I think about I listen to and being a border kid in Canada, I follow the Reading Rainbow on public broadcast. And now LeVar Burton reads for adults is something I'm thinking about these days. So he's got seven seasons of reading short stories to adults. So I think about how meaningful some of these read aloud experiences have been, it's very intimate with maybe a family member, maybe a teacher read to you. Or maybe you're listening to stories in podcast format. Now I do think there is a way that this media could be multimodal and really enhance the learning and I'm thinking about a really good book and I was just looking at my bookshelf here is just e learning. Here it is E learning and the science of instruction. So proven guidelines for consumers and designers of multimedia learning. That's by Clark and Mayer. It's a really good book that talks about the fourth edition. The talks about how we can be better with some of our Yeah, visuals to audio to videos. But there's more out there that like I'm still learning so I don't know.
44:10
Yeah, well, I think that that is again, I'm gonna go back to here to slay with with trusted McMillan cotton and Roxane Gay because the one that they talked about about higher ed and tressie teaches digital sociology she teaches in online programs. But you know, I think that this is where the friction comes in and where a faculty feel this frustration is, you know, she said herself and I've heard this out there. She's not a technologist, right? She doesn't want to be a technologist. She didn't get into this for being a technologist. And now there's this expectation that we are asking faculty to do good video production and now do you know Audio Productions, you know how to edit your podcast, you know, you know it's a lot on top of research on top of students on top service on top of life and COVID. You know, and this just goes to the whole underlying, like, teaching is devalued in a lot of ways in higher education. And so there isn't a lot of impetus to stay on top of the technology to stay on top of these sorts of skills, I mean, means that I'm always going to have a job. But it also means that like, there, there's, you know, that even those little things like learning how to use visuals better, right, like, that's,
that for a lot of people, like I don't use visuals very well at all. And it's hard, right? It's hard for me. And so that there's, I think that that's one of the one of the biggest challenges for using all of this technology, be it video via audio, be it like just, you know, graphic design, any of that kind of stuff is that it's it's not what we were trained in, it's not necessarily what we were always interested in as academics. And, you know, and it is a lot of uncompensated labor that we are asking faculty to do on top of everything else. So it's, you know, I understand the challenge of that, and I understand the frustration of it, and like, I'm lucky that this is my job. And I get to nerd out over it and learn about video and learn about podcasting. And, you know, but but I also get that a lot of faculty like that, it's just that they don't have enough spoons, that is a bunch of spoons, too many for what is on their plate. So, you know, the the criticisms that we often hear around faculty being Luddites, faculty being disinterested in improving their pedagogy. Um, you know, I think it even just went in my accusation of I'm going to use zoom as as a crutch, right? Well, it's probably a really important crutch at this particular juncture, right? You know, like, wait, what are the battles that I What do I have enough spoons for? And well, I might not have enough spoons to completely rethink and reimagine my course, within a short period of time. But I think when we talk about accessibility, I think that we often we prioritize the students, which is really important, but we don't necessarily take the faculty's accessibility into consideration. You know, what sort of technology Do they have access to? But also what sort of support that they have? How are they being rewarded? I think of all of these faculty, women faculty who have are also now responsible for homeschooling their kids, who are, you know, carrying the extra load of this third shift? And oh, by the way, learn all of this technology and become an expert video producer.
47:47
You know, yeah, it's, I think, I think there is there's lots of value for educators, learners and researchers. However, without the time, the resources or even the training and support, like you said, it's not going to be as democratic as we think it can be. And so that that's a good call out to leave on and say, if you are thinking about whether it's video, and we've explained to other media, because that's been kind of wrapped into video here. How are you supporting those faculty members, those researchers, your students, because you can't just expect them to flip on camera and hit record, I think that it requires a bit more planning and support than we ever recognize. I think that's a good call at least. So thanks for sharing that.
48:34
You're welcome.
48:35
So thanks for joining. We appreciate it. Thank you for having me. And
48:38
thank you for doing this. This is a lot of fun.
48:42
You've been listening to between the chapters with your host, Laura pasquini. For more information or to subscribe to between the chapters and 25 years of edtech visit 25 years dot open air.ca