076 | Rob Malin | Navigating the Role of Sustainability in the Drinks Industry | When in Rome

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In episode 76, we continue the conversation with Rob Malin from Ep. 75. We delve into the complexities of incorporating sustainability into a wine brand's selling story. We talk about the impact of consumer trends and government legislation on brand growth, and discover strategies for balancing traditional wine marketing with innovative sustainable practices.

Time Stamps

00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview

00:48 Incorporating Sustainability into Wine Branding

02:43 Consumer Trends and Government Legislation

03:52 Packaging and Consumer Perception

06:47 Target Occasions vs. Target Consumers

09:03 Challenges and Opportunities in Wine Marketing

15:17 The Role of Education in Sustainability

27:25 Reflections and Future Strategies

32:01 Final Thoughts and Where to Find Us

About The Guest: Rob Malin

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Rob Malin

Founder | When in Rome | Wine

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Welcome to the maffeo drinks
podcast I'm your host Chris

maffeo in episode 76 we continue
the conversation with rob Malin

from episode 75 we delve into
the complexities of

incorporating sustainability
into a wine brand selling.

Story we talk.
About the impact of consumer

trends and government
legislation on brand growth and

discover strategies for
balancing traditional wine

marketing with innovative
sustainable practices.

I hope you will enjoy your chat.
If you enjoy this podcast,

please take the time to leave a
review on Spotify or Apple

podcast.
You can also check out my

fairdrinks.com where you can
subscribe to my mini guides on

sub stack or download my new
digital course on how to

bootstrap a drinks brand.
It's also like to the second

point that I left pending on the
sustainability now and the fact

that how you use that into your
selling story, you know, in that

sense, because you know, I think
about this a lot and I talk with

many players and many and many
customers now.

And something that I'm that I'm
talking about is I I call it the

the selling ring roads.
You need to select which roads

you're taking to enter the city,
you know, to reach that

customer.
And then imagine like all the

roads that get into the Grand
Dera corridor.

You want to play, you know,
you've got, you know, packaging,

you've got provenance, you've
got sustainability, you got, you

know, you got different kind of
elements that you can play with

into that selling story, you
know, and you need to be able to

highlight certain things with
more or less acceleration on

that kind of topic.
Because if you see that the,

let's say, the sustainability is
not really a play, then you

focus on the Pinot Grigio, you
know, and then if the Pinot

Grigio, you see that it's very
crowded because the guy has got

already like 7 Pinot Grigio,
then you downplay the Pinot

Grigio and you play more on the,
the kind of packaging that you

have or maybe a lot, another
kind of elements that you have

in your range.
No, but how does sustainability

play a role for you?
And also like, what do you think

in general, like for other
brands, you know, how do they

play with sustainability?
And what I mean by this question

is that sometimes brands are not
clear what they want to do when

they just play on the
sustainability.

And I was like, I'm a
sustainable brand.

And then it ends.
If you are the 1st, then it's

enough because then you may be
the only sustainable brand on

the shelf.
But then when when the cake gets

bigger and then they start to be
like 1015 players that are

sustainable, then how do you
adjust that messaging, you know,

to make sure that actually you
talk about other aspects and not

only only that.
Yeah.

What I've learned over the years
and obviously is a brand that

is, you know, is a, is a brand
that's growing and requires

investment to grow.
You know, investors look for two

things, right?
They look for consumer trends

and they look at government
legislation, right?

So that these are the two things
capable of shifting the market

massively, right?
One is just what, you know, what

appeals to consumers.
So we want to appeal to

consumers based on the fact that
our wines are, you know, from a,

you know, one of the world's
great wine producing nations.

They're good examples of those
local wines.

You know, when in Rome, people
know what that means in English

speaking markets and, and we
want to appeal to them that sort

of emotional connection that
consumers have to Italy, which

is frankly quite underexploited
in the UK.

And if you look at the top
alcohol brands in the UK, the

top 50 brands is not a single
Italian wine brand.

And that sort of shows you how
poorly that industry has failed

to surrealise its potential, you
know, in my, in my opinion.

So the one hand you've got that
kind of, you know, if you love

Italy, you know, you should, you
should drink our wines because

we, we love it too.
And the sustainability piece is

like, you know, endless consumer
surveys will tell you that when

you ask a consumer, are you
prepared to spend more on

sustainable brand?
And they say, yes, you know, now

I, I, I think that is true only
in a very small amount of

purchasing decisions.
Like we do not believe that more

than a small single figures
percentage of, of, of our

customer base are buying our
products because they, they

agreed, you know, they're buying
them because a cat is a good

format to take on a train or to
a picnic.

A paper bottle is a good format
for a rock concerts or a sports

event.
A bag in box is good if you are

a single person living at home
and you want a glass of wine

every day.
You know this primary drivers in

terms of format.
And then they like our brand

because within that space, you
know, we sell good liquid at the

good value.
Where sustainability comes in

for us is opening opportunities
with buyers because they know

that they have to produce their
emissions, their scope 3

emissions.
We, we measure our carbon

footprint.
We work with the business called

Carbon Cloud.
We are the only wine brand in

the UK that publishes the
climate impact of our products

on the consumer packaging,
right?

But it's not for the consumer
because the consumer doesn't

know what that means yet.
It's a statement to our

commercial partners that we are
serious about reducing their

carbon footprint.
But to your point about like,

you know, other brands playing
on sustainability, so we've

talked a lot to a business
called Oat Leaf makes some oat

milk and they also use the same
Swedish company that we do to

order their carbon footprint.
And the Oakley, as we're saying

to the dairy industry, come on,
guys, like here is our climate

footprint for our oat milk.
Let's let's talk about the

climate footprint of your, of
your cow's milk, right?

They never will because it's
multiple times higher.

So for us with, with the wine
brands, as we're saying, well,

we're sustainable.
Here are our numbers.

Here is full radical climate
transparency for you.

And, and for legacy wine brands,
it's very hard to compete with

because as long as they're
making 97% of their profits from

wine in glass bottles, it's
automatically going to be 50%

higher than us.
So it's really hard for them to

compete because they can't
necessarily talk about the

benefits of the formats we use
because it's much better for the

environment than the formats
they use.

You can't imagine.
I really don't like consumer

research in general, you know,
because I think that many of

them can be very, very biased.
I've, I've been working

insights, you know, like, and
for me, the way you ask the

question leads to a certain
answer.

It's like if, if you ask me, you
know, why did you buy this

canned wine?
Is it because it's convenient or

is it because it's better for
the environment?

Of course, you know, I know what
I'm going to answer, you know,

So what I'm thinking about is
the fact that there's limited

amounts of people that really do
choose packaging, in my opinion,

like for, for a sustainability
choice, you know, but then to

make a huge impact, then you
need to drive that at mainstream

level, you know, so the, the
average Joe must understand what

it means for the sustainability
and then you need to make it

relevant for them.
No, So another thing that I

never really like anymore is the
fact that, you know, brands

often have got this kind of like
target consumers in mind.

No, and for me, I'm all about
the target occasion.

So for me, there's no single
person wanted a single brand is

more like a specific person
wanting a specific brand is more

like there is a repertoire of
brands that I buy and depending

on the occasion, depending on
what I feel like I'm choosing

them now.
But in your experience, because

I'm sure you've got like data
also on your website and and and

so on, do you see that there is
a specific demographic, for

example, that is involved into
your brand or is very varied?

Because like, are you reaching
more type of consumer than the

green activist kind of people or
like the people that are really

put in sustainability at the
centre of everything they do I.

Completely agree about the
target occasion.

That couldn't be more true of
our brand actually because our

distribution in the UK is, is
no, it's not complete.

We're a small business, so we
can reach Waitrose customer

because we're in every Waitrose.
We can reach a percentage of

Sainsbury's customers because
we're in a percentage of their

stores.
The same with Astor.

And did the average the profile
of consumer at these places

very, very different.
You know, it's certainly

Waitrose consumers tend to be a
little bit more affluent and

probably have the luxury of
being able to buy something that

is more and more environmentally
sustainable.

The rest of the UK, like in many
countries, we've just been

through a cost of living crisis.
It's starting to ease and you

know, you've got to worry about
how you can pay rent, not, you

know, what is the climate
impacts of what you're buying.

And we sort of said that if our
brands can charge a modest

greenium, as it were, and, and,
and survive the cost of living

crisis, then we've definitely
got a promising, promising

future.
But, but overwhelmingly, as you

say, people, it's about getting
access to, to, to consumers,

right?
So, you know, if we're doing the

wine for a Coldplay, then
everybody at that onto the most

drink wine is drinking our wine.
And we don't know who they are

and they're certainly not buying
because it's environmentally

friendly.
They're buying because it is

available there at a reasonable
price.

So it's in a container that they
can take anywhere they like

within the in the venue.
So in that respect, we're not

targeting greed consumers, but
there are a hardcore of people

that bias for that reason, you
know, and and we sort of have to

be faithful to those people,
otherwise we will totally

undermine what we're doing.
Absolutely.

But the, but those people, they
don't belong to a specific

demographic.
You know, they could be from 20

year old or, or the, or the 55
year olds like it, It doesn't

really belong to a specific
category.

Because I the, the reason why I
was asking the question is also

because I read a lot of reports
and, and articles about

everybody are talking about Gen.
Z these days.

Now.
For example, they talk about the

fact that they are scared of
wine because that's been played

as a old money kind of game
that, you know, younger consumer

don't really understand.
And many players, especially in

the States, for example, like
they are playing on that kind of

wave now because they say
actually I want to make the

packaging easier to understand.
I want to make it more

approachable than what the
traditional players have been.

No, I wanted to understand from
you when you have like a pretty

straightforward packaging in
mind or is it, is it just like

one of the elements that is
about it's a different

packaging, it's cans or it's
boxes and you can play with

different kind of information on
that box and on that packaging.

And then automatically you know
you are talking about different

things than the older players
are are talking about.

So in terms of the way you can
present your brand and by the

way, you know, actually many
spirits brands use this paper

wine bottle that have done so
very, very effectively.

And, and, and they tell a story
very, very well on packaging

that the total surface area of
the can is probably not much

more different to the size of
the paper label on a, on a glass

wine bottle.
So in terms of your space to

build the consumer for the can
space, it's quite similar.

But it's also, you know, what
we've done differently is that

we are a brand and we're not a,
we're not a shame to be a wine

brand.
We have long term partnerships

with producers in Italy, but we
are not a Chateau or a cantilla,

you know, and then we don't want
to be no, because the wine

industry, as you know, Chris is
let's it's handicapped by lots

of crazy regulations of which
you can and can't call things,

you know, and we're competing
against.

I don't know.
I keep, you know, I won't name

it, but there's a there a
supposedly Spanish beer brand in

the UK that is, is brewed by an
American company in the north of

England, never touched Spanish
lips in its entire history as a

brand.
They could call it what they

like because there isn't any
regulations in the beer

industry.
It's all about marketing.

You do whatever you like, you
know, whereas, you know, we have

constant difficulties in what we
can and can't call our products

versus, you know, anything that
in Italy, any Italian wines, DOC

will lose its denomination if it
goes into account.

So we can't call it Chianti or
Brunel di Multachino.

You have to call it Rosso
Toscano, you know, and, and so

you've got constantly these
issues and, and so for us, we're

like, well, OK, well, if we go
to win in Rome and we build a

really strong Italian brand,
then over time, you know, well,

we can go to different
varieties, but also like what

the Y is actually called is it?
That doesn't really matter, you

know, because they'll recognize
our brands and, and the wide

industry is quite unusual in, in
the industry to, to take that

approach because people are so
attached to the sort of

historical traditions in the
industry which you know, not to

be ignored.
It's obviously wonderful for us

that we're in the same industry
as as as a bottle of wine itself

for €10,000, but that's not
where our target consumer is is

at.
It makes me think like what you

were saying because it, it make
me think about all this in

Oteca, for example, in Italy,
you know, I grew up with having

them in the neighborhood now,
like many of them.

And, and I remember you, you're
going for dinner to someone and

then you'll get a bag from that
in Oteca, you know, like the

wine shop.
So you automatically know that,

you know, if I come to your
place and I bring your bottle

with that bag, automatically,
you know, it's, it's a good wine

that I, I made an effort.
I didn't go to a random store

downstairs from, from your place
to buy something.

You know, I, I, I went to
someone who is a curator of

wines.
And if you think about it, I

mean, what you, what you said
earlier is striking like that.

There's no wine brand that is
actually, you know, making it up

there in the most valuable
brands.

Because if you think about, it's
true.

I mean, it makes sense because
you know, there's, there's so

many things at play that there
is no one that actually managed

to, to get this kind of like
country domination.

No.
So what you are doing is very

interesting because you are
becoming that kind of role that

an Enoteca would play in that
sense.

Because it's like, OK, then I
know that it's a wine in Rome

wine.
So whatever there is, if it's a

primitive or a Falangina or or a
Pinot Grigio, I trust it because

it's been selected by them.
And if I liked two out of three

of their previous experiences,
then probably I'm going to like

the 4th 1 and the fifth one.
Or maybe it may not be my taste,

kind of like profile, but I
still trust them that it's it's

a good one.
So I may bring it for dinner to

a friend that I know loves that
kind of that is, that is.

Exactly what we see in in our
sales statistics over time,

right.
So as I said, a huge proportion

of why we sell is peanut Rigo
because we've got OK, we've

already got to sell wine and the
packaging people aren't used to

be that a paper bottle, a bag in
box or a can.

It's a brand that maybe, you
know, we we're new at a

supermarket that ever heard of
us.

So at least at least let's have
a Pinot Grigio that people know

what that what that is, right.
But then in supermarkets, that's

to say we sell a pilot Grigio
card and also Pecorino, which,

you know, everybody in the UK
thinks is a cheese.

It's great cheese.
It's so, yeah, there's also a

wide core Pecorino that we'll
see that the rate of sale of

Pinot Grigio, it's always
better, always higher and the

same, you know, sort of on a
like for like basis.

But the Pecorino over time
starts to come up like that

because people go, well, I've
tried this pit of Grigio for my

name.
Oh, that's nice.

And what is this Pecorino?
I'll look by that too.

We have statistics that that
show that not many and we'd like

them to be more.
But that's kind of exactly what

we aim to do over time is to
sort of, you know, educate

people, you know, with about
what's what's going on the

Italian wine industry by here's
what I wrote.

Pit of Grigio is 3 lbs in a can.
If you like it, then here's a

Pecorino too.
And by the way, you know, you

ever tried an Italian rose?
Probably not.

You should try our Rosado
because you know, did you trust

the brows?
I love this because also like

when, when I think of, let's say
your position like in, in, you

know, being listed in many
modern trade chains, you know,

you've got access to data, which
is a bit of a luxury in the on

trade now, because it's so it's
more like a kind of like a gut

feels and you know, like
guesstimates kind of kind of

thing.
But you know, like when you do

that, then it, it can give you
so many insights and it can

also, you know, and you can also
use it to put the foot in the

door in other, other, other
chains and other stores.

And if we go back to the
previous question that I was

asking about the sustainability
aspect, now, what's the state of

the industry in terms of
sustainability?

You know, like, do you think
that many brands are putting

that forward?
I feel many brands are.

When I, when I talk to people,
it's like we are the first

sustainable brand on blah, blah,
blah, or we are the first

founder, blah, blah, blah.
Very often I see brands that are

pushing forward the I'm the
first at kind of thing, rather

than actually substantiating it
with a big bulk of information.

As I said, we, we, we lead on
our appeal as as good quality,

crowd pleasing wines from Italy,
right.

And then we're very, very so
clear that that is, that is why

you should be buying a wife
because you want to buy into

the, yeah, the emotional
experience of, of drinking of,

of a nice glass of wine in, in
a, in a country that is

universally adored across Europe
and the rest of the world.

Right.
But in terms of the

sustainability, I mean that the
wider, this is a funny one

because actually in the, in the
viticulture, the viticulture

space is pioneering a lot of,
you know, really interesting

techniques for, for reducing
it's carbon footprint.

So the wine industry at the
production level is very focused

on sustainability, but we're
also obsessed with glass

bottles.
And that creates a huge handicap

because, you know, if you have
tried to tell the consumer

you're you're a sustainable
brand, you know, how do you

reconcile that with knowingly
doubling the carbon footprint of

what you're doing by putting it
in a glass bottle?

Because you don't have enough
faith in your product to think

that anyone's going to buy it in
any other container.

So you're sort of handicapped
and it makes it really hard to

do that, that message.
If so, for example, you know,

the irony of the people go, I
don't want to buy bagging box

wine because it's, it's, it's
bulk, you know, and you're like,

well, do you realize that
probably 95% of Australian wine

sold the UK comes, is shipped in
bulk to a port from Australia to

the UK and is bottled in the UK.
So, you know, that's, that's

exactly the same thing.
And actually that's very, very

good for the environment to ship
wine like that in bulk.

But like the wider industry,
they won't tell you that because

people will be like, oh, it's
bulk wine, not buy it.

And so we don't have enough
faith in our own products.

I think just tell consumers how
sustainable we are.

I think this is, this is our as
our handicap, you know, And so

actually the wider industry
doesn't push it down consumers

throats in the way that many
other industries do because like

one, which is not very good at
pocketing, but two, we just

don't have enough fear.
We were just too anxious that

consumer perception about
containers, for example, will

will undermine our our rate of
sale.

And so we're sort of stuck in a
bit of a vicious circle in that

respect.
That's very true because for

example, I mean, I have a good
friend of mine who's one of my

best friends and in Rome and
he's very much into, for

example, biodynamic wines.
And with him I tried many bride,

many, many wines that were, you
know, by dynamic wines, but they

were like tape table wines and
albino de Tavola, just like

regular wines in a bagging box.
Yeah, for example.

And he was like when I, when I
saw it at his place, you know,

like, and I know how fixated he
is with quality and so on.

And I, I looked at the packaging
and the first time I saw it, I

was like, yeah, it's that, you
know, like, are you giving me a

wine from, you know, but to me,
what I mean by this is that

there is like a lot of education
that must be done to consumers,

you know, because automatically,
otherwise they default to the

OK, it's in a box, It's low
quality cheap wine, you know,

which is not, you know, same
thing is like when when you were

talking about bulk, I used to
work in beer and you know,

Pilsner Rukuil, it's shipped in
bulk.

I mean that if you if you see
the truck that is doing the

unpasteurized, I mean, it's a
truck that looks like a fuel

tank, you know, like with a huge
pipe filling up the tank beers

in the pub, you know, are you
complaining about it's is it low

quality because it has been
shipped in bulk?

No, not really.
And then would you have to push

it then into a bottle into a
glass bottle so that then now

it's a bottle beer and now it's
better than it can beer.

There is a lot about that.
Historically, glass has always

been perceived as different.
And there are some categories in

which, you know, you can play.
I mean, if if you look at, for

example, a carbonation,
obviously, I mean, it's

different.
You know, like if you drink like

a Coca-Cola in a glass bottle is
different than in a than in a

plastic bottle.
But that is also due to the

carbonation effect, you know,
like how much the the core can

hold the carbonation.
You know, there's other things

in play is not just like the.
The actual packaging.

So there is a lot of things that
when you dig and you dive into

it, then you understand why
certain things are better.

Which leads to another point
from me that is that is about

the importance of education to
consumers to trade.

What role does that play for
your brand when you are talking

about when in Rome?
Back to your earlier point

actually about being occasion
focused was if you're occasion

focused, let's imagine that you
know, you're on that train.

We've talked about the Friday
evening train from London to

Edinburgh, 4 1/2 hour journey.
You go to little Waitrose in

Kings Cross station instead of
buying, you know, like a

sandwich and a warm beer like
you probably would have done in

the 1980s.
You get a really nice fresh

sushi platter and a chilled cow
of weather Rd.

Peter Grigio and you, you, you
have that on the train home and

look, that is a really, that's a
really pleasant experience

actually, compared to what you
would have had 10 years ago.

It's a it's a joyful experience.
I've ever Italian brand like we

want to bring joy into people's
lives.

We don't want to spoil.
We don't want to preach and say

like you shouldn't be drinking
wine and glass bottles because

as, as you know, Chris, like
this that many occasion, if you

want to keep wine and sell off
your grandchildren needs to be

in a glass bottle.
There's many reasons why wine is

sold in glass bottles.
We're not trying to eliminate

that.
Nor do we want to spoil the

ceremony of somebody opening up,
you know, a really high quality

bottle of Prosecco, you know, at
A, at a wedding.

We're just saying that for sort
of everyday consumption, it is

better for the environment to
drink wine in low carbon

packaging for life.
There's no reason why you double

the footprint of your product by
putting in a glass bottle.

And, and you should not be
ashamed or embarrassed to tell

the, to tell the consumer that
because it's common sense and

it's, it's not, it's not
preaching, you know, and

actually the retailers have a
big role to play in this.

They've done very, very well.
You know, we, we look at the

fact that Waitrose spent a lot
of time and money explaining to

consumers why they eliminated
small glass bottles, but wine in

cans.
So we do the wine for British

Airways as well.
British Airways also on their

menu explain why they're selling
winding cans and not glass

bottles.
Because of course, the carbon

saving of a pack of a
lightweight packaging in the air

much greater than on the ground.
Like actually the carbon saving

in those planes is much greater.
And, and they've explained the

consumer why they're doing it.
But it's, yeah, it's in the

corner of the app.
It's not saying buy this wine

because if you don't, we're all
going to die.

You know, it's like, buy this
one because it's great and looks

great.
And here's a picture of our can

with a nice sandwich.
And by the way, This is why we

sell wine and caps.
And like that's the way it needs

to be done.
And there are some shiny

examples how this is done in the
industry, like not, not just

from our brands and from our
retail partners from others too,

but it's still very small.
That's how I, I discovered your

brand actually when I was flying
back from London a couple of

months ago on, on a British
Airways flight.

And then I saw when in Rome and
then it struck me because I was

like, wow, this is a cool brand.
It should be Rome and myself.

But it goes back to what I was
saying earlier.

Now, the fact that one thing is
to mention it as a by the way

kind of thing and one thing is
smashing it on the face of every

single conversation.
So what I like about this

concept that I'm, you know,
still refining, selling ring

roads, is that, you know, it
depends where you are.

It's exactly the same like, like
occasions.

You know, if I'm with my wife, I
want to have some wine, you

know, I don't need to uncork,
especially, you know, if it's a

Monday night kind of, you know,
like we just want to have a

glass each, you know.
But if I'm in a fancy dinner

with interesting people and I
want to uncork like a aged

bottle of Barolo, then of course
it's another story.

And it's the same thing with
when you were explaining your

brand.
You know, like if you are in a

setting when sustainability is
at is at the core of that

conversation, then of course
you're talking about the fact

that you are a sustainable
product, you know, but then like

by mentioning that, you know,
directly all the time, and then

all of a sudden it's like, but
what about the actual product

inside?
You know, I know, I know you're

sustainable, but I want to want
to want to know.

It's a it's actually a good wine
that I'm drinking.

It's it's an interesting debate
on where do you draw the line

and how do you play with
different kind of people and

different kind of like parts of
your storytelling, you know, in,

in this.
Yeah, it's a really hard balance

to strike actually.
You know, and again, as a as a

small brands with limited
marketing resource, we probably

should be more consistent in our
messaging over over time.

We're so proud of our
sustainability credentials that

we probably over broadcast that
little bit because it's actually

the job of some, you know, our,
our, our retail partners are

really a people that can make a
difference over time to that

because, you know, they are so
trust any of the, the UK

supermarkets is so, so much more
trusted brands than a relatively

small wine brand like us that
they will be able to resonate

with consumers.
They've got a role to educate

them, you know, and, and
frankly, that that's a quite a

dry messaging that needs to be
conveyed, right.

And, and they have done a really
good job of communicating that

to consumers.
And that is for us to come in

and go, well, look, you know, we
want you to buy our products

because, because it tastes
great.

By the way, you know, you're
helping reduce the climate

impact of what you're doing.
I mean, we're also being really

honest about it, right?
I mean that the fact is it does,

it does have a climate impact
and we've, we've got work to do

on reducing it.
Like, you know, your friend, you

know, we don't employ biodynamic
viticulture, for example.

We have work to do to work with
our producers to kind of to

reduce the climate impact of the
viticulture, because that for us

is the largest piece, the
climate impact what we do.

And again, you know, but
consumers don't want to know

that you are installing
agrivoltaic panels above the

grapes.
It's not an interest to them.

You know, it's the what they
want to do is to to know that

the ones that taste great and
give them, yeah, a little bit of

joy on the way home.
You know that trade's elaborate.

That's why for me it's about
like who you're talking to, what

you say to whom.
Yeah, in a thing now.

And, and of course, like in the,
in those elements that are kind

of like at scale, like a website
or, you know, like a social

media page, you know, like, then
that's more of a

one-size-fits-all kind of
approach because you need to

pick one, you know, you cannot
talk about all the things at the

same time, you know, but then
like, it's interesting to see

like when, and, and this is,
let's say it's more like for me

on focusing much more on the
bottom up trades, all the, all

the independent side of things.
Then those kind of conversation

happen at much higher scale
because you are talking to 10

different people during the same
day.

You know, like it's not one
barrier for 100 stores is, is,

you know, it's one person for
one bar kind of thing.

And then that's where you also
kind of like learn to master it,

you know, because then it's
like, OK, like now I am, you

know, I look at the back bar, I
look at the things, I look at

the setting, I look at the menu,
I look at the person.

And then I, I listen, I shut up
and listen to the person.

And then I start to understand,
you know, what are the inputs

that this person is more
interested in?

Which doesn't mean that I have
to hide the other ones, but at

least I can overemphasize, you
know, the stuff that we agree on

rather than all the other thing,
all the other seven things that

we actually do.
Wrapping up and going back to

the initial initial part, like
if you went back to the

beginning, would you start from
the on trade?

You know, would you play, would
you allow let's say the entree

to get a bigger role of of your
channel strategy or or would you

actually still do it the same
way as you did it?

I mean, the answer is I, I said
of course I would do things

stiff.
There's a lot, not just, not

just a sales strategy, but I'd
do differently, Chris.

They'll do lots of things
differently, you know, like, but

any, I'll tell you what I'm
saying, you know, and going back

to a more fundamental question.
And if, if I'd realised how hard

it would be to start my own
business, would I have had the

courage to do it?
You know, that's a, that's

another question as well.
However, the answer is yes to a

question.
I didn't have the courage.

I didn't have the courage.
To, I mean, no regrets because

you don't have any regrets in
life.

But I've had the courage to do
that.

I'm not sure, you know, in terms
of the on trade piece though,

Yeah, I mean, like I give it a
really silly example of how the

where canned wine has done
really well in the UK, like both

for us and for others has been
theatre bars, because theatre

bars, they have this huge rush
in the interval, right.

And for canned wine that is
speed of service.

Like rather than having to pour
a glass, you just go here's a

glass here, the cap, right.
And so not only does that, you

know, massively increase speed
of service, but you've also

given people for the first time
in here because like, did anyone

remember the brand of Sauvignon
Blanc they had in this in the

theatre at the interval?
Of course they don't.

Whereas if they if they've got a
Cam, then they can read the

brand, they can read the brand
story, right.

So that is an opportunity for
the theatre and for the Cam wide

brats right now, when we
started, we weren't in in

Cannes, so that that that
opportunity wasn't there.

But yeah, you're quite right.
I mean, as I said, like a large

part of the way our sales
strategy was formed was by my

own naivety.
You know, I, I've not come into

the drinks industry from the,
from, I'd have a drinks industry

background.
I can see brands that have, you

know, especially people that
have worked themselves in the

entrees that then go into the
Driggs industry.

They do things very differently
to, to us.

And we've sort of learned the
halfway actually whilst all of

our retail partners that they
are great partners for us.

I think probably thanks to our
green credentials like we'd been

throwing bones that we might not
have been where we just a more

conventional business, you know.
So we've been allowed to make

more mistakes because we are
help helping them reduce their

private footprint.
They've been coined to us as a

part that they've kind of
suffered on naivety as it

worked.
But yeah, if I if I do things

differently again, I would
certainly have have paid more

attention to the on trade right
from the start.

What you're talking about is
it's something that I that I

call in other, you know,
episodes and some posts like I

call it the three levels of
relevance, not for a retailer or

for a buy, you know, like the
emotional relevance, the

strategic relevance and the
financial relevance now.

And in that case, I mean, you
have been playing a strategic

role in the relevance for them
because maybe they were, you

know, more allowing, let's say
towards you, but you were

helping them on something.
So that is actually exactly what

happens in many other categories
is like, I may have a mezcal

brand and you have a country pub
and you don't have any agave

spirits.
And I play the role of the, the

guy that is helping you have an
agave offering because nobody's

thinking about, you know,
everybody's here coming to sell

me gin.
And then I, you know, I'm over

saturated with gin, you know, so
it's, it's very interesting,

like how you can develop things
in a smart way.

I mean, like, for example, the
theater example that you were

saying is, is genius.
I mean like the, the, the

Coldplay concert kind of thing,
you know, I think channel

strategies have created these
separations.

Now it's like on off, you know,
and that's why, for example,

like I don't call, I don't talk
about on trade and off trade

anymore.
I talk about bottom up trade and

trade because the bottom up
trade is where you can actually

build the story and the top down
train is where you basically

kind of like milk it if you if
you allow me now.

But obviously it doesn't mean
that, you know, it's black and

white because if you are doing a
Waitrose food festival

activation in that moment, you
know that top down trade, which

is a supermarket chain becomes a
bottom up enabler for you

because it helps you sell and
tell that story.

It's always having this kind of
like agility to really

understand like where to play
and putting the the occasion

forward really helps you to to
have clarity because it's like,

I actually, you know, for
example, faster served, kind of

like consumption can play a big
role.

Otherwise you would have
dismissed that, you know, like

the theater kind of example.
So I want to leave you some

space to, you know, to tell
people where to find you, but

also, you know, to leave a Pearl
of wisdom to to somebody that is

starting this kind of journey.
What would you recommend them or

or leave some thoughts then?
I think you've got to love what

you're doing, right, because
it's, yeah, the wine industry

is, is it's very competitive.
It's quite low margin and it's

also quite traditional, quite
slow, right?

But my special thing is, you
know, because I, you know, I

lived in Italy for a long time.
I speak Italian, I love Italian

wine.
Every time I see someone buy,

you know, one of our calves, one
of our paper bottles, I think

that I actually like to think
that they're experiencing a

little bit of the joy that I
experienced when I lived in your

country, right?
And, and, and I want the

consumers to kind of experience
that too.

And I love what I do.
And if you know, if you don't,

don't come into this industry
think, thinking that, so you've

got a five year plan and you can
exit to Deacho, right, because

that that might make what
happen, but it's highly

unlikely, right?
You've just got to really love

it, you know, and and believe in
your products.

Like we don't have a huge
marketing budget, but we spend

money on good quality wide.
That is our marketing budget,

right?
So we love our products.

We really believe in them.
We love it's all cliche, isn't

it?
But if you love what you do,

then you never work a day and
you're like, you know, and I, I

really do feel like that.
That's very strong and and how

can people find you?
If you're in the UK, it's easy.

We're in every Waitrose
including King's Cross station.

As I said many times we are in
in Sainsbury's as well,

obviously available on the, the,
the, the line.

We work with Asda and with
Arcado.

So we've got 4 main resale parts
in the UK.

And then of course we're on
British Airways shortfall

flights.
So if you're flying from

Heathrow or Gapwick Airport in
London to anywhere in Europe

then in in economy class you
will find us on the menu.

And I think it's a hopefully an
enjoyable way to to spend that

that two hours flying to warmer
climates in Europe from the UK.

So thanks a lot, Rob.
It was a great pleasure.

Pleasure too, and I hope to.
Finally meet you in person soon.

Hopefully with Cyrus we can have
a night.

I would, I would love that.
I would love that.

Yeah.
Hugely great for the Cyrus for,

for, you know, playing Cupid
here.

And I really enjoyed the
conversation, Chris, thank you

very much.
That's all for today, remember

that this is a two-part episode
75 and 76, so feel free to

listen to both.
One last thing, if you enjoy

this podcast, please leave a
review, share with friends and

remember that brands are built
bottom up.