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In this limited podcast series from Oil Change International, host Shady Khalil pulls back the curtain on the true cost of fossil fuels and the villains blocking climate action. Through candid conversations with global climate leaders, the podcast explores the damage caused by fossil fuels, the obstacles in our path, and how people-powered movements are forging the path towards a just and equitable transition that leaves no one behind.
From the frontlines of the climate crisis to the global halls of power, we look at the political, economic, and people-powered battles shaping our future. This is not just a fight about climate and carbon, it’s a fight for people and justice. Together we can create the livable future we deserve.
New episodes will be released every week. Find out more at https://oilchange.org/burned/
Shady Khalil (00:03)
Hello everyone, this is Shady Khalil from Oil Change International. Welcome to the first episode of Burned: The Price of Oil, a podcast where we expose the true cost of fossil fuels and the villains blocking climate action and how a movement of people power is fighting back to create momentum for just an equitable transition that leaves no one behind. About who we are at Oil Change International, we are a research, communication and advocacy organization that have been working for 20 years.
with the global climate movement to expose the true cost of fossil fuels and advocate for just an equitable transition to renewables energy. In this first episode, I'm honored to have someone I truly admire, a powerful leader, an activist, and inspiration to so many people in the climate movement. She's the executive director of Climate Action Network and someone who has personally challenged me so many times and inspired my own thinking, Tasneem Essop. Welcome Tasneem to the show.
Tasneem Essop (01:02)
Thank you, Shady. Thank you for having me.
Shady Khalil (01:05)
Tasneem, I cannot express how excited am to have you here and I'm just eager to really dive deep in. I want our listeners to possibly get to know you more and how you started your journey in activism, organizing and fighting for justice. You can take us back to the beginning as an anti-apartheid activist in South Africa.
building solidarity at your school during the Swato uprising and you started the volleyball club. I wouldn't have joined this because I'm horrible at volleyball, but this turned into a massive use organizing. So what was it like to be a student organizers and how did those experiences shape the activists and the movement leader you have become?
Tasneem Essop (01:48)
You know, when we were very young, young children, we were living in an area called District 6 in Cape Town. And District 6 was a vibrant, integrated community, a really close-knit community, right in the center of the city. And then the apartheid government decided that we were a bit too close to the center of the city. This was...
prime property, we were also a bit of a threat in their view because we were a really inclusive community in terms of faiths, terms of, you know, diversity, et cetera. And they then decided that they will evict us based on what was called the Group Areas Act. Every so-called racial group had to live in a particular area, no mixing. And so this was what they did. They put forward eviction orders.
And it was exactly in that childhood period, in the time, you know, when I was still in primary school, as they call it, that we were evicted. Families were evicted. And we were witnessing how bulldozers came into this very large community and just bulldozed homes and families were displaced and people who grew up with each other, friends, you know, being split into different.
other areas because of their racial categorization. And of course, that was the point at which my awareness, I suppose, and my political consciousness then developed, that there was this huge injustice, it was a racial injustice, and people were displaced. And so, you know, that is one sure way of making justice very much part of your entire being if you've literally gone through the experience of
being evicted from your home, your home, you witness being bulldozed. And this would resonate today, for example, what's happening in Palestine and when we're witnessing displacement and people's homes being bulldozed around them. And you underestimate the full impact of that and what that does to your entire being. know, it's not just bricks and mortar. It is your life.
your memories, your history. And so that was the triggering point for my journey of activism. It was at a very young age. And then, of course, becoming more officially, if you want to call it that, involved in activism. In my student days, it was around the period of the big Soweto uprisings, as we called it, in 1976. you know, students became...
a central part of our struggle against apartheid. In previous times, but in 76, it again came to the fore where the youth were leading and we still celebrate June the 16th as Youth Day in South Africa. And so it goes on and, you know, then I go into university and continue with the activism right through to my days as a teacher. There were teachers unions we were all involved in.
activism against apartheid together with our students, you know, on the streets actually fighting, fighting police and soldiers. It's been a long journey, but lots of lessons and especially, I suppose the lessons of optimism, hope, resilience, steadfastness, these are important lessons that one takes out of such a journey.
Shady Khalil (05:32)
So Tasneem, there is one theme that I feel that you have been talking about, like through different journeys, has been community, diversity, inclusion within movement, and like how you work. You have a very specific style of how you approach your work. It's community driven, it's movement driven. So moving fast forward, and now you lead one of the most influential coalitions, Climate Action Network. Our audiences is one of the strongest powers within the climate spaces, bringing collective power.
throughout multilateral spaces and also movements on the ground and different nodes across the world. But Tasneem, if you can also maybe introduce to the listeners what climate action network is, how did it start and how it evolved in your time, and how do you envision the network in the future?
Tasneem Essop (06:18)
CAN was actually born at the time, in 1989, and a small group of activists established this network in response to the agreement on setting up the UNFCCC. So with the birth of the UNFCCC, CAN was established. And we were there from the start, actually. And then, of course, CAN grew, and we grew in a few ways. Maybe I should...
say that in the evolution of CAN, of course at the start, it tended to be very narrowly climate focused and even more so mitigation oriented. And in addition to all of that, it was also quite Northern driven. Many of the Global South nodes struggled to see themselves and their priorities in the global work of the network. And
In addition to that, our allies also had real challenges with the positioning of CAN. Some of our policy positions were not aligned with their justice-oriented policy positions. And so I was actually involved in CAN when I was working for WWF as a member of CAN. And we tried to transform WWF itself also.
to shift for more Southern representation. And then when you saw that being mirrored in CAN, again, the same challenges, Southern voices not being heard enough, et cetera. So we also tried to push CAN in those days. And then to the irony of it all, Iza became the executive director of CAN. And there we go. And that was the time we could make those big shifts in CAN. And that's what we did.
Shady Khalil (08:12)
Yeah, I feel that you have been always like, at least encountering you, feel you're like driven by a vision on how you want to transform those dynamics. And I feel it's essential to do climate justice if we transform those dynamics. So maybe if you can just like tell us briefly, like what kind of work you're doing right now to transform this, what kind of work should be done to transform this.
Tasneem Essop (08:35)
We started out, of course, trying to address the kind of power imbalance in the network. And so we put a lot of attention on building and supporting our southern nodes, ensuring that there's capacity, there's resources, and made sure that the voice of our global south is actually heard in the network, in our decision-making structures. And yeah, of course, we still have challenges, but certainly we have seen
the results of that, you know, far more Global South participation, but also perspectives. And so supporting our Global South nodes and their voice, it has influenced also the direction that we're taking as a network and that a lot of our positioning right now is justice orientation. You know that just using the language climate justice was only in recent times.
When we had a charter review a few years ago, when I joined CAN as the ED, we never spoke about climate justice as a network.
Shady Khalil (09:44)
or the climate action.
Tasneem Essop (09:46)
Where are we? We spoke about climate action. We never spoke about climate justice. Never. And so just a simple language, you know, the language, the semantics of the network also shifts.
Shady Khalil (09:59)
Yeah, I mean, before moving to the next question, there's like two points I really want to stress on of what you said is really envisioning this connection and like really pioneering this kind of work and really setting an example and fighting those fights. And I know that you are quite powerful and you are known of like how you draw attention to this intersection to quite a lot of effort, what I call internal activism that you have to do. it's a lot of work and it's a lot of effort. And I've seen you doing it day after day. So I'm just acknowledging this.
And then when it comes to also language, you mentioned language and language is key and also representation. So for me, it feels different when I walk into climate spaces and I don't see people like me versus when I go into spaces and I see people like you being powerful and leading the movement. just like sits different, I don't know, like different wave to my body. Like I feel more courageous. I feel that I can be here. I should be here. I have a place here. And this is what I have seen can evolve at least with my short experience with scan.
Year after year, I see people like me taking leadership and it impacts me. It impacts how I move, how I operate within those spaces. And for that, I'm very thankful. This name, and I see you, I see the efforts that you have been doing.
Tasneem Essop (11:06)
Thank you Shadi, mean that, just that feedback makes my heart full with joy because that's exactly it. That people must feel they belong, that they belong in this network and that we're part of a wider movement of people who need to belong in this network and that we represent you and your, what you would want in this world. Otherwise, you know, we just replicate the existing
power relationships in the world right now. And that's very much part of the justice story that, in order to achieve justice, you have to address the power imbalances that we have in the world and the history around that. now, you know, we think it's the past, but the past is very present. It's very present.
Shady Khalil (11:56)
It is. But Tasneem, you have led the global movement to many massive wins, I have to say this, including loss and damage, including mobilization right now around just transition and also the COP28 outcome of the global stock take around the fossil fuel phase out or transitioning away from fossil fuel, if I'm accurate. And I will just explain to our listeners at COP28 in ⁓ Dubai, the entire movement have worked in order
get an outcome. mean, to my surprise, it's the first mention of all fossil fuels in the history of the climate talks, which is three decades of governments going to negotiate without addressing the primary cause of climate change. So for me, was, I mean, just joining the movement, it was quite of a surprise. I'm like, ⁓ I would assume that this is the first thing that should be on the table, but it's more complex than this. And I remember at COP 28 and the climate talks happening in Dubai,
the outcome to transition away from fossil fuel. was a big moment. But at this moment, we're also standing looking at my colleagues leading on adaptation. And they were, I mean, happy that this being addressed, but they felt this tension that they are not getting a lot of things around finance, around adaptation. And there was quite a tension in the space. So I wanted to ask you, Tasneem, how did you feel for the outcome of COP 28? What made it possible and how do you?
Did you truly feel at COP28 and the climate talks of Dubai?
Tasneem Essop (13:27)
It's over how many years now? I forget, but it's now 10 years since Paris, for example. But it's been over 30 years of negotiations and we haven't achieved the kind of radical transformational change we need. that's the limitations of a UN process. It's going to be incremental in nature. And having looked at that, one of the first times we tested a new approach because
We would go into these as can business as usual every year. We have a long list of policy demands and we go and we advocate and meet with negotiators and then we come out and we're really unhappy, a small step, blah, blah, blah. And COVID just, I think, woke us all up in the sense of the world is reeling from a crisis and it's the same sections of our society.
that is suffering the most, that will suffer and has suffered from the climate impact as well. Same sections, vulnerable communities, marginalised communities. And so we decided we can't just do business as usual. We need to identify a fight to win that really directly speaks to the suffering of people. And in a year with COVID especially.
And so while loss and damage wasn't on the formal agenda of the Glasgow COP, we decided we're going to fight for loss and damage fund and we're going to put it on that agenda. And that's what we did. what we mean by escalation is literally saying, we're taking one big fight. There's all the other issues, of course, that we will work on, but one fight that we build massive power behind through coalition building with other movements that we will have a...
very sharp political strategy as well, and that we would mobilize around on the streets and then make it an agenda item that cannot be ignored. And so it's an inside-outside strategy as well. we did, you know, in Glasgow, we didn't win the fund, of course, but we continued. And the next year in Egypt, we won. We got the fund. And that was fantastic. I mean, that is after 30...
So years of negotiations. And again, one of the other things that was important, of course, is the combination of using our power as civil society together with a very united G77 plus China. If G77 plus China wasn't united behind this, it would have been much more difficult to get it. So the combination of a united developing country block with civil society took it across the line.
It was fantastic and we were really proud about that victory. based on that, we thought, okay, every year now we will do a similar thing. Not every year. It won't be the same every year in terms of approaches, et cetera. But we did the same thing for the phase out of fossil fuels for Dubai. Exactly went in the same way, built the power coalitions, built the whole, you know, movements behind it.
Inside, outside, we were meeting with the presidency, actually, to also try and persuade the cop president that this should be his legacy. This should be for, you know, a petro state to come out with an agreement on transitioning away from fossil fuels. That is huge.
Shady Khalil (17:00)
was a dream, everyone was shocked. I'm like, it would never happen this year, but it happened.
Tasneem Essop (17:04)
No, of course. And thankfully, I mean, I know there was lots of criticisms, of course, of the COP presidency. But interestingly enough, he was very open to engagement. And if we could present sound arguments and we persuaded him that he's actually the legacy for the COP. And in the year of Dubai, we produced the extractives equity review. So in other words, looking at an equitable approach.
to the phase out of fossil fuels. What would that look like? Who should go first? Who goes next, you know, based on capacity, historical responsibility, et cetera. And using that technical report as well and presenting that to the presidency, it really loosened up his, you he started, if you remember, Shady, he was very determined that oil, you know, the fossil fuels is going to be into our future and, you know, we engaged.
both the power of the movements on the outside and keeping the pressure and our inside engagements with parties, of course, but with the presidency. The combination of that actually then got us to get that language in the outcome of Dubai. I mean, there's additional problematic things with that outcome, but certainly it was really a precedent.
for fossil fuels to be mentioned for the first time and to transition away from fossil fuels in the COP decision was really a big victory actually. So yes, we didn't win on other things, but we recognize that again, you know, there's another time for us to fight on all these other issues.
Shady Khalil (18:51)
I remember this moment quite strongly because it was in Dubai and it was a strong moment indeed. I mean, the dynamics of COP28 and I mean those dynamics happened before COP28 and is happening after COP28. But there is often a super neat storyline being told in climate negotiation. Global North countries are the heroes pushing for the ambition. They are leading on this while Global South...
fossil fuel producer drags their feet, they are the villains. So there is like a super need to see it in international media, see it within negotiation rooms, super need. But obviously for us working in this, we understand that this story is not the right story. If we look at data and not opinions, you see that a global North country just for the US, Canada, Australia, Norway, they are leading massive expansion on fossil fuels. They are not the heroes.
But yet you see them in the negotiation room taking over the space is quite provocative. I would say like I get super provoked knowing the data and I know that they are responsible on 40 % of the expansion of fossil fuel from 2015 to 2024. So if we are looking at an ambition gap or like the crisis of climate change, are the one responsible. They are the villains. But you see them assuming the role of the heroes. How do you feel about this?
How do you deal with this?
Tasneem Essop (20:16)
Well, you can imagine how frustrated, you know, because that's the thing, the kind of competition of narrative and who has access to mainstream media, who has control of mainstream media. So this is why I'm saying the power dynamics in the world is really reflected in the climate spaces as well. And so, yeah, they will make all these claims. They love to talk about progressive countries versus blocking countries, et cetera.
and you have to unpack what progressive means. Now the reality is, and this is the simple story, in terms of the climate agreement, the convention and the Paris Agreement, rich nations, developed countries, are supposed to do two important things. One, they must lead in the reduction of their emissions. And they need to do so because they are historically responsible.
for the climate crisis. Secondly, also based on that historical responsibility, they have to provide developing countries with finance to be able to address climate action in developing countries. Now, if you look at progress on both those important obligations, they fail. They absolutely fail. Like you're saying, you know, they are expanding.
The key driver of the climate crisis is fossil fuels. Yet they are expanding when science, when they themselves have said, ⁓ we must reduce emissions and this is the most critical decade. And yet they're expanding as your reports, OCI reports have demonstrated. They are culprits for this. And what they're really good at is finger pointing. They will say,
You need to do more work and especially the emerging economies, know, you, ⁓ China, India, South Africa, Brazil, blah, you need to increase your thing. A lot of this has to do with competitiveness, economic competitiveness as well. So it's not just the climate that they're worried about, it's everything else as well, right?
Shady Khalil (22:35)
Thank you so much for bringing this point forward and if you can expand slightly on it because in the climate negotiation everyone assumes that they are discussing only climate change but climate change is also about economies, about trade, it's about development.
Tasneem Essop (22:46)
If anybody thinks that climate is in a bubble, really needs to understand what the reality is. And so that reality comes into the rooms of the climate negotiations. geopolitical tensions play out in the climate negotiations. And right now, those geopolitical tensions are at its highest. It comes into the negotiations. If there's conflicts happening in the world, wars, genocide.
This comes into the negotiations. It's not left at the front door. It influences the levels of trust that is existing, the way decisions will be made, et cetera. So geopolitical tensions, trade tensions, and we're living through a period of massive trade tensions. even security council seats, for example, get traded over. And there's all kinds of things.
that influence the negotiations, influence the way they make decisions and what they're willing to agree to or not agree to. So yes, of course, for developed countries, often it's a lot of these issues that influence their positioning. And so they will point fingers at others, try and shift responsibility on the emissions piece. When we talk about their finance obligation, that's even worse.
That's even worse. Developed countries have not actually delivered the kind of funding that is needed at the scale and in terms of the pace at which that needs to happen. So you know we had this thumb suck amount of a hundred billion from Copenhagen. They didn't even deliver the full hundred billion. Then they come and they apologize. sorry, we couldn't deliver the hundred billion. And then they say,
They delivered the 100 billion and they get to that amount through some creative accounting. yeah, so always they've shifted responsibilities again.
Shady Khalil (24:52)
I would speak just briefly about also one of the findings of our recently published analysis on the finance part. they have like in total of the finance from 2015 to 2024, the global North countries have given $280 billion while their fossil fuel companies have made in profits, only in profits, $1.3 trillion. Absolutely. So the money that is being given
And it's a legitimate money. And if, ⁓ Tasneem, if you can speak just like on the finance, why do global North countries owe global South money? I know that this is quite obvious to us, but I mean, just to some of the listeners who might not be familiar of what's the climate debt. Yeah. And I know it's a term that you are really pushing forward. What's the climate debt in that sense?
Tasneem Essop (25:40)
So of course the Global North countries owe the Global South a climate debt and it's just the climate debt we're talking about. You must remember in our history there are many other forms of debt reparations that the Global North owes us, colonialism, etc. However, just on the climate debt, again coming back to the historical responsibility, while they are supposed to reduce their emissions, there's a carbon budget, they've literally eaten up the whole carbon budget already.
So when you look at the remaining carbon budget for developing countries, that's already taken. If you quantify that in terms of financing, that is the climate debt that they owe the South. That's the climate debt that they owe the South. They have to pay firstly for what they've done historically, and then also, of course, the fact that they're not reducing the emissions as they should be, but rather expanding.
That means the climate debt will grow continuously. We quantified that climate debt very conservatively last year to be five trillion per annum. Right? So that's the kind of level of the climate debt. So they've not paid anything. They haven't paid fully a hundred billion. Last year, to just add insult, they committed to only increasing
the climate finance goal to 300 billion per year. Now, what is more worrying now, Shady, is this new development where the developed countries are now saying, well, we should be looking to the private sector for that money. We must get investments for that. We must be looking at the multilateral development banks like the World Bank. Let's look at how we can leverage
funding for climate finance. So once again, not only do they not provide finance, they're shifting the responsibility away from themselves. Again, which means that their responsibility to provide reparations, essentially, the justice element of this is them paying their climate debt. They're not going to do that. So again, this 300 billion is not
purely public finance. We want all that funding to be public finance. It's not. And they again, the problem here is that the argument, this is where the important thing is. The arguments that they present is there's no money. Our economies are struggling and there's no money, et cetera. But now if you actually look at it, it's not that there's a problem of no money because they find the money.
for increasing their military expenditure. We know right now, all of these rich nations, the NATO nations, have increased their budgets, right, their military expenditure, to fight wars and genocide. So they've got money for destruction. Then you add to that, Shady, the fact that they subsidize fossil fuels.
And, you know, there have been studies about how much that amounts to, it is really in the trillions, if you will add all of this up. So again, the main driver of a climate crisis, you're willing to support with your public money. In other words, our tax money, shady, goes to supporting the fossil fuel industry that on the other hand will literally be killing us. So they can find the money.
for all their priorities as developed countries and then their wealthy elites, if you add to that, who they don't tax properly, know, benefiting from all of this, they can find the money. So the excuse that there's no money is just a terrible excuse. And we call them out on this. They keep on shifting responsibilities. And in addition,
On the finance issue, they've also introduced this whole fight actually in the negotiations where they are saying, well, we must now look at expanding what they call the contributor base, which is essentially the donor base of people who will provide climate finance. And they want some big developing countries to be included in the provision of climate finance.
Shady Khalil (30:26)
So what they call rich developing countries, which is Saudi Arabia, China, and they want to say, you know what, now it's a global problem. So if you have the money, just put it on the table, which is a way of saying you are just getting away with your accountability. And this is something that Climate Action Network has been really pushing against and really something that I respect and I'm proud I'm being part of this. Tasneem, there's like the different piece that I feel that I have seen you also work on it and address it a lot is
There is like an approach when we talk about fossil fuel and when we talk about the mitigation and transition to energy, there is a very cutting emission technocratic approach that you have touched on. And there is another side of the story. The story is that you are trying to paint with many movement leaders and many communities and movement on the ground is around fairness and justice, is around community, which is exactly what you mentioned about climate justice and all of this. Can those two approaches work together as a technocratic approach?
and that the community-driven, justice-driven approach, can you envision a future where this happens?
Tasneem Essop (31:33)
So the thing that we need to understand is that, you everybody keeps on talking about, you know, we need ambition. And when they talk about ambition, is we need ambition in terms of reduction of emissions. Now, there's a simple reality. You're not going to get that ambition without justice. You're not. Even the IPCC, people don't maybe go and look at the details. But even the IPCC mentioned this in one of the reports where they said, if society...
doesn't feel that they are going to be, that some form of justice will be served or that their needs are taken care of, they will resist climate action. And we're seeing that happen. We're seeing that happen with the right-wing resistance to this because people's lives are, they perceive as being affected by climate policies and yeah. So if we do not see
ambition and justice as two sides of the same coin. We're not going to get any form of ambition. And that speaks to exactly the need for a just transition approach. A just transition approach, and the emphasis here is on justice approach, means that at your national levels, in a very inclusive way, so it's procedural justice.
So communities, workers, government, business, et cetera, as the key social partners, if you want to call that, in a country, they need to have a collective planning process for adjust how are we going to transition. Say, you identify that by 2050, we want our country to be zero carbon or...
you know, we are resilient. Whatever your vision for 2050 is, not only climate related, even development. We want full employment or whatever, whatever. We shouldn't separate climate policy from your domestic development policy also. That's very artificial approaches. And you know, these things are only in the UNFCCC where people talk about this is mitigation, this is that. When you're on the ground, it doesn't work like that. In any case, so.
with just transition planning and approaches. You have an inclusive process. You identify where you want to be as a nation. So this is a national effort, you know? And then collectively, you decide looking where you want to be, looking backward. What is the pathways to get to that objective? What would the energy pathways need to look like? When can we shift from, and I'm using like South Africa, for example, we are dependent on coal.
If we wanted to be zero carbon by 2050 for our energy pathway, we need to know when we'll be able to move from coal, when would investments in renewables have to happen so that we will be in a position to then shift because you can't shut down coal tomorrow. Nobody can shut down fossil fuels tomorrow. But so when will you be able to do it? What kind of things we need to invest in to be able to make that transition? Do we need to move from? And this is where
It's really terrible. But when you're on the ground planning like that, you need to know if there's a point at which you probably will need some hybrid form. You you won't go immediately from ending coal to renewable immediately. There might be a time, et cetera. So these are that's where we can call that technocratic, but that kind of technical support in planning these pathways happen. But that cannot happen.
without a just inclusive process and without the outcomes being just as well. So the redistributive elements of the plans need to be factored in our workers benefit, how communities benefit, how we deal with poverty, et cetera. So that's, I think, for just energy transitions, we will need to have that kind of just approach.
Shady Khalil (35:51)
Thank you Tasneem. To try to summarize the accountability of the global north, need to phase out. First, from fossil fuels, they need to really commit to this because they have the legal and the moral obligation to do so. And then we are looking into finance and enabling conditions for the global south. need to actually give the finance that they owe to the global south, the climate debt, as you have explained, and then also the just transition. How can we envision?
just transition within different realities because it's not going to be the same in every different context. So how can this work also be done? And before I close, one of the important things that I have seen you lead in the past two years and you have put your heart and your effort into this is the work around Palestine and connecting climate justice with Palestine. As you know, so many people rejected this connection at the start. How's climate related to Palestine? But you have done a lot of work to bring
understanding to the movement and to even multilateral spaces on the connection between climate justice, Palestine.
Tasneem Essop (36:54)
So there's two things, Shady. One, there are those, of course, who would like, and we can do this, present all the climate-related issues in terms of that genocide, right? So, you know, the emissions in terms of the bombing and the military weapons, et cetera. So you could do that. You can look at... Exactly. then you can look at...
Shady Khalil (37:18)
Technocratic approach
Tasneem Essop (37:22)
⁓ you know, what they've done with the land and all of that. We can take that approach and there's a valid basis for that. Ecoside is a valid, we have to fight it, right? And it should be an international crime. So I did not want us to have a game. We must find these arguments for why people need to take a moral stand. There's a point at which all of us have to take
moral stands, principled stands on issue. So yes, there's the climate arguments, but there is the moral position. Literally a genocide is happening. Literally, this is coming off the back of an illegal occupation. So international law is very clear about this. And, you know, we can't cherry pick. So for climate, we believe in international law. But when it comes to a genocide, international law doesn't matter.
And so for the very moral basis, I decided when our entry point into the discussions in our network should not be from a very narrow, typical climate perspective, but that when we say we're fighting for climate justice, we're not fighting for climate. That is about carbon. It's about people. We're fighting for justice for people and the very life itself.
Whether it's life of the planet or the people, it's life itself. If you believe you are fighting the climate crisis for that, for that, the existence of humanity, then you can't cherry pick whose lives is going to matter, right? And what is causing loss of life. And here, that is important, that people understand that this justice is in
And climate justice is not a narrow concept, that it is fundamentally connected to other forms of injustices, whether that is the injustice of an occupation, an illegal occupation, the genocide, et cetera, and other unfolding genocides. All of this should be top of mind, including what's happening between Ukraine and Russia, et cetera, because our network, Shady, when the war in Ukraine happened, let me be very clear.
It didn't take any debate, any debate in our network. There was an instinctive. People said we must stand in solidarity. We all stood in solidarity. The global South stood in solidarity. And I honestly believed that when the genocide happened, that that would be, you everybody's going to be clear about this. And then, of course, we were all surprised by the level of
or the lack of unity on this position at the start, and the pushback, et cetera. But I'm glad that we've developed in a way in the network that that time has passed and there is just an acceptance that we are standing on the right side of history. We will stand in solidarity. And not just with Palestine, we will stand in solidarity on principle in any instances of injustices.
Shady Khalil (40:48)
Yeah, I mean, thank you so much Tasneem and I have to tell you at certain points when this started like it made a huge difference when you took this stance because at certain point I'm like looking around am I, do they see me less because I'm Arab because people would jump into Ukraine immediately but to Arab blood it just like felt it's somehow treated less by the way that you stood and you were clear on this point that made me feel
really grounded into this and also in my activism and work on climate. I'm like, no, this is a cause that I can relate to. Climate justice is my cause. And you framed it, I think, perfectly when you said it's not about carbon, it's about people. And this is, I think, the movement that I want to join. want to be part of. Tasneem, thank you so much for your leadership, for your time, and for everything that you are doing, visible or invisible, it's ⁓ seen and appreciated. Your words bring a lot of depth, courage, and clarity.
for a just fight is creating a different reality in the work that we do. It's been an honor having you in the first episode of Burnt, The Price of Oil. To our listeners, subscribe and stay tuned for the next episode for more conversation covering the hidden cost of fossil fuels and imagining a just energy future that we want. Thank you so much Tasneem.
Tasneem Essop (42:05)
Thank you very much, Shady. Thank you very much. It's been a huge privilege.
Shady Khalil (42:14)
Thanks so much for joining us for this episode of Burned the price of oil. Subscribe and stay tuned for the next episode for more conversations uncovering the hidden cost of fossil fuels and imagining the just energy future that we want. Don't forget to rate us and review us on whatever app you get your podcasts on. For more information you can always check our website at oilchange.org and follow us on social media @PriceofOil.
Thanks a lot for listening.
Tasneem Essop (42:52)
Thank you.