Ep.135: Navigating the Impossible: Legally Obtaining an Authorization to Carry Restricted Firearms in Canada

Expert Insights on obtaining an Authorization to Carry a Restricted Firearm for those working in remote wilderness areas.

 

In this episode of the Silvercore Podcast, host Travis Bader interviews professional trapper and hunting guide Rachel Ahtila, Canada's newest Authorization to Carry (ATC) recipient. They delve into the complexities of obtaining an ATC in Canada, with a focus on the exact process which has been proven time and again to garner success for qualified iniviudals. Key discussions cover firearm laws, safety protocols, acceptable firearms and holsters, policy vs legislation and regulation and a deep dive into the intricate and seemingly illusory application process for an ATC.

 

The episode offers practical tips on safe firearm practices, transportation and carry requirements, and maintaining compliance with federal and provincial laws. Travis and Rachel share personal experiences, legislative insights, and emphasize the importance of proper training, equipment, professionalism, and persistence when interacting with regulatory bodies and firearm officers.

https://www.instagram.com/rachelahtila/
https://bio.site/rachelahtila

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Host Instagram - @Bader.Trav https://www.instagram.com/bader.trav
Silvercore Instagram - @SilvercoreOutdoors https://www.instagram.com/silvercoreoutdoors

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00:00 Introduction to Silvercore Podcast
00:56 Meet Rachel Ahtila: Canada's Newest ATC Recipient
01:28 Understanding the ATC Process
03:43 Challenges and Misconceptions in Obtaining an ATC
07:00 Legal and Practical Considerations for ATC
09:46 Navigating the Bureaucracy: Tips and Insights
10:33 The Importance of Address and Residency
13:17 Real-Life Experiences and Lessons Learned
16:32 The Role of Firearms Officers and Legal Nuances
20:59 Proficiency and Application Process
32:52 Final Thoughts and Encouragement
43:45 Living Remotely and Firearm Regulations
44:16 Navigating the Permit Process
44:56 Effective Communication with Authorities
49:01 Understanding Trapping and Wilderness Permits
50:12 Proficiency and Application Requirements
01:03:36 Holsters and Firearm Safety
01:07:50 Concealment and Legal Considerations
01:23:37 Navigating Firearms Application Challenges
01:25:00 Advice on Answering Application Questions
01:25:49 Personal Experiences with Firearms Officers
01:26:43 Importance of Clear and Concise Answers
01:27:21 Trapping and Firearms Regulations
01:29:09 Effective Use of Handguns for Trapping
01:31:16 Transporting and Storing Firearms
01:37:42 Proof of Proficiency and Application Process
01:40:48 Wilderness Protection and Firearms
01:46:13 Shooting Techniques and Training
02:01:25 Navigating Permit Specifications
02:02:13 Balancing Relationships and Safety
02:02:46 Predator Encounters and Safety Skills
02:03:28 Defining Remote Work Areas
02:04:15 Handgun Effectiveness and Practicality
02:08:59 Risk Assessments and Employer Obligations
02:14:11 Application Process and Follow-Up
02:19:09 Training and Proficiency
02:20:00 Addressing Common Questions
02:40:42 Final Thoughts and Encouragement

 

What is The Silvercore Podcast with Travis Bader?

The Silvercore Podcast explores the mindset and skills that build capable people. Host Travis Bader speaks with hunters, adventurers, soldiers, athletes, craftsmen, and founders about competence, integrity, and the pursuit of mastery, in the wild and in daily life. Hit follow and step into conversations that sharpen your edge.

Kind: captions
Language: en-GB

Travis Bader: So today's podcast is pretty
massive in the world of Canadian firearms.

Insofar as we're talking about
authorizations to carry for an A TC

and a TC is something that's typically
viewed as unobtainium, meaning

it's almost aus the way that it's
issued by the RCMP firearms program.

But I've kind of templated pro.

And we've been successful since about 1994
onwards and been on the bleeding edge of

every new authorization to carry recipient
for wilderness carry, for work reasons.

Every single time a new policy change
has been made, or there's changes

to regulations or legislation.

I've always held this pretty
close to my chest because I

didn't want to jinx the process.

And everyone who came to us for the
authorization to carry has always been

somebody who needed it for work reasons.

And it just made it
streamlined and easy for them.

I was put in touch with today's guest.

She'd been working with the National
Firearms Association for quite some

time, and they were unsuccessful in
getting her ATC when I got in touch

with her in no time flat, she was issued
her ATC, she met all the requirements.

It was just a matter of making sure
you check the boxes in the proper way.

I figured, and she figured that
this is something that probably

shouldn't be held close to the chest.

This is something that if we.

Let everybody know the process
of how it goes through.

It'll normalize it and make it far
easier for other people in the future.

It also has an interesting side
consequence, which is in Canada, there's

a handgun freeze that's in effect
where you can't purchase new handguns.

However, if you need it for work reasons.

That's one of the ways individuals
can be issued a handgun.

For this podcast, rather than doing
it in the studio, I took it on the

road and we went to a pretty cool
place where actually, if you're

watching this, we're inside a barn.

Luckily you don't see
the floor of the barn.

We needed to control our lighting in
some way, but a pack rat had definitely

taken up a home in this place and
there was a mess everywhere, but.

Hey, we braved it.

We sat in there, we recorded the podcast.

And I also combined this into a hunt.

My wife and I went hunting.

It was a successful hunt.

We've got meat in the
freezer, had a great time.

I use my Nanook pack for all of the
camera gear that I took for traveling.

I use my Nanook hard bow case for my bow.

And the reason I bring that up
is because Nanook is a Silvercore

Club brand partner, one of many.

You get 25 percent off if you're
a Silvercore Club member when

buying any Nanook product.

I like Nanook because they're Canadian
made, they're robust, they're durable.

They look really cool.

It works well.

If you've got expensive equipment and you
want to make sure it's well protected,

throw it in a case, rest assured.

If you're not a Silvercore club
member, I would highly recommend it.

I mean, put aside all of the brand
partners that we have and the

amazing discounts that you get.

You also get free training,
free online training, quite a

number of Silvercore products.

You got insurance North America wide.

There's also that other
interesting piece of the puzzle.

That kind of goes along with this podcast
here included free in every silver core

club membership is the RCMP approved.

Gun club membership.

So if you own restricted firearms
and the RCMP requires you to show

proof I'm belonging to a approved
gun club or range, the civil court

club is an RCMP approved club.

Without further ado, let's
get this podcast rolling.

All right.

This is going to be a fun one.

I've been looking forward
to this one for a while.

I'm sitting down with Canada's newest
ATC authorization to carry recipient.

I've been watching your
social media for a while.

We've been chatting back
and forth for a long time.

Love the adventures that
you're on professional.

Guide, professional trapper.

Welcome to the Silvercorp
podcast, Rachel Attila.

Rachel Athila: Travis, thank you so much.

Had some accolades there.

I've got a lot to live up to.

Travis Bader: Man.

Oh, there's more.

I could go into more.

Should I go into more?

Um, this is, so I've talked about getting
an ATC in the past on the podcast.

I think what we're going to
call this one, maybe just.

ATC Masterclass, Authorization
to Carry Masterclass.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

Travis Bader: So I've been
doing this since about 1994.

I got my first authorization
to carry when I turned 18.

That would be around, I don't know when
that was, late nineties, mid nineties.

And, uh, Every province in Canada
is going to issue authorizations to

transport a little bit differently.

Over the years, they've worked
at standardizing the process, but

that said, there is no standard
process for an ATC issuance.

We have had many, uh, professionals
from different backgrounds who've

gone through and they've tried to
get their ATC on their own and they

failed and they failed miserably.

Rachel Athila: Yes.

Yeah.

Travis Bader: And the reason I'm
told, I've been told this by a

couple different firearms officers,
is that, uh, they have a mandate

to make getting an ATC difficult.

One firearms officer told me, he
says, Oh, we don't want to have

everybody running around willy
nilly with a handgun on their hip.

And I said, why not?

I mean, really, what is it your
concern if they are properly trained

and properly licensed and they have
a legitimate reason to be out there.

Rachel Athila: And jumped
through the three ring circus.

Cause let me tell you, it
is not an easy process.

Travis Bader: Right.

And that, I mean, holy crow, that's
where I'm going to really love your

fresh perspective and full disclosure.

I've been doing this for a long time.

Uh, we've got a 100 percent
success rate for every week.

Applicant who's come through,
these are legitimate people with

legitimate reasons to have it.

Um, a hundred percent success rate for
anyone looking to be a trapper, looking,

working in a remote wilderness area.

They're working in

Rachel Athila: industries,

Travis Bader: working as armed guards.

And I didn't want.

To talk about it.

I didn't want to tell people about
it because I was concerned that this

secret sauce that we've had for a
very long time would get burnt out

and people would stop getting it.

But in talking with you, um, I've come
to the realization based in part on

your, uh, your background and your
assurances and your perspective as well.

That we should normalize
this process for everybody.

Rachel Athila: Well, I think Travis,
that's, I mean, we've stalked each other

through social media and I think that's
where the grand conversation really

came together because I almost made a
plea and coming into, for people that

don't know me, I've been a professional
hunting guide for a decade and a half.

Um, as well as I work remotely,
you know, as a trapper now, also

as a rancher, and I've had several
professions in oil and gas as well, you

know, that, You, in Canada, we are 99.

9 percent rural for a lot of
our jobs and you get across, you

know, up from the 49th parallel.

But when I originally thought, you
know, I would love to be able to carry a

pistol years ago, there was no answers.

No one would help me.

And so it was very serendipitous
that we crossed paths when

I made a plea last year.

And I'm really excited to dive into this
with you because there are people out

there that, for life saving matters,
This could actually make a difference.

And I know for myself as a professional
guide, I wish my only regret is I

wish I would have done this as soon
as I had got my restricted license.

The amount of times where carrying a
pistol on your person, having interactions

with wildlife, taking care of clients,
you know, now even working so remotely

in the winter on a trapline, um, and
even here on a cattle ranch in the remote

part of British Columbia, there are so
many instances that, uh, you know, If

anything, as we dive into this podcast,
I really hope people take away this.

This isn't a fast track.

This isn't cheating off a test.

This is giving you the tools for the
people that this actually qualifies for.

And I think that's one thing, like you
said, you didn't want to debunk it and,

and make it so it's like, Oh, this is
the easy way to go and get a test guys.

It's like, if you're dedicated and
you're truly passionate about this

as a tool, This is a podcast for you.

Travis Bader: A thousand
percent, but it begs a question.

And I think I know the answer.

Why didn't you apply after getting your
restricted license right off the bat?

Rachel Athila: The biggest
thing, I hit roadblocks.

I would try and go to different
gun ranges and I would be blocked.

They'd be like, Oh, it's too hard.

Or there's, you know, there's a test
and, and no one wanted to offer the test.

So I literally started going to
every single range when I would

travel through and I got nowhere.

I, I, at the time I, I literally was a
gypsy, I had a pimped out storage locker.

And so part of having restricted
firearm, as you know, is you have

to have a place of residence, you
know, you have to have, that's where

your home address is, a locked safe.

You have to have all the prerequisites.

So part of the reason I didn't pursue
it earlier is I didn't have a fixed

address, but as I matured, you know,
settled down my gypsy ways a little bit,

I started to go, okay, you know what?

I wanted to pursue this.

So at the end of 2018, 2019, when I was
wrapping up in the territories, I started

going down the rabbit hole a little
bit more and I correct me as I'm wrong.

I obviously, you know, this comes from
my firsthand knowledge, what I had been

told Was I'm a BC resident, wanting to
travel to the Northwest Territories,

traveling through the restrictions.

At one time I had been told that I
would need to be certified in BC.

I would have to travel through
the Yukon on a special ATC permit,

go to the Northwest Territories,
jump through a bunch of hoops, but

that BC and the NWT work together.

Albert and the NWT and BC and the Yukon.

So I, I started having this
convoluted story that it was like,

wow, this is like chasing a unicorn.

I have no idea how to go about this.

Travis Bader: One thing I think I
should probably make very clear it

off the bat and I can't speak for you.

So I'll ask you this.

Have you had legal training,
professional legal training, gone

to school or you pass a bar test?

You're, you're not a lawyer.

I'm

Rachel Athila: not a lawyer.

No.

Travis Bader: I have not had
professional legal training.

I'm not a lawyer.

So everything that you and I
are talking about here is going

to be from our experience.

We have had legal training
in certain areas, but not as.

Professional lawyers, so we are
not qualified to give legal advice.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

Travis Bader: So I think
that's an important thing

to get off the, off the go.

Um, and I should probably throw in the
word allegedly in front of this podcast,

because I'm going to make references and
you might as well to things that, uh, have

been relayed to you that you've heard.

And so we'll just throw a big, an
allegedly over the entire podcast.

Rachel Athila: These are two people that
are just trying to help everyone else.

And exactly.

Allegedly, this is what have happened.

Great.

By no means, I hope it's
easier for everyone else.

Travis Bader: A hundred percent.

Well, um, okay.

So you brought up a couple
of interesting things.

You talked about, uh, traveling from
British Columbia, Northwest Territories.

Uh, so in the firearms act, they talk
about geographical extent and your

possession and acquisition license is
going to have a geographical extent.

Across Canada, uh, different
authorizations that are issued

are going to be done provincially.

So an authorization to transport an
authorization to carry, these are going to

be provincial things that are set forth.

They are written down in the firearms
act and the firearms act regulations,

but on top of that, the different
provincial bodies that we've got

opt in and opt out provinces.

So some will say, ah, we're
going to do our own thing.

We're a province and we're going to do
our own Take care of things ourselves.

Others will say, no, we're going
to fall under the broader federal

RCMP firearms program, and
we're going to work with them.

So we've got opt in and opt out provinces.

Um, they will make policy.

So.

We have legislation, we've
got regulations, we've got

policy that we're dealing with.

And this is just somebody who's
a civil servant working in their

office, trying to come up with
the best process that they can.

And then we've got the last piece of
the puzzle, which is going to be those

civil servants trying to understand that
policy and apply it to those regulations

in the framework of the legislation.

And there's going to be personalities
that you have to deal with too.

So.

This I'm hoping is going to give
experiences that I've seen, that

you've seen that kind of encompany
the company, that kind of encompass,

that kind of encompass all of them.

Yeah.

And I think that's an important
way to kind of frame this.

If somebody is listening to this
and they want to go through and get

their ATC, Just because I'm right,
doesn't mean I'm going to get it.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

Travis Bader: Just because I meet
the laws doesn't mean I'll get it

because I might not meet the policy.

The policy isn't a law and you
could argue that up and down and

it might just be the personality
that you're dealing with as well.

It's unfortunate, but
that's, that's, that's life.

That's how it works.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

Travis Bader: So you talked about
geographical extent and there was

something else that you brought up that
was kind of clicked in the back of my

head as you're talking and, um, um, it'll
come to me as we go through, I'm sure.

So,

Rachel Athila: might've been,
um, where I was geographically at

home, as far as like, that's it.

There you go.

Travis Bader: Okay.

A hundred percent.

See, I'm glad you're sharp.

Rachel Athila: I had two
cups of coffee this morning.

We're perking right along.

Travis Bader: I love it.

So, uh, home, you said, I
didn't have a home address.

Rachel Athila: And a lot of guides don't.

A lot of people don't.

A lot of people don't.

We're, especially in North
America and Northwest, we're

transient, we're chasing jobs.

So that for me, I would love for you
to help explain that because there's a

lot of people I think that speaks to.

Travis Bader: And there's a lot of
people that don't actually have,

let's say a mailing address, right?

There's going to be people
who live on reservations and

they're going to have different.

Uh, they say, well, my, my house is
a fifth one down past the big, big,

uh, tree or whatever it might be.

And this is me talking to the firearms
officers and having gone through

this in the past, um, I remember
there was a, a fellow, uh, passed

on a long time ago, uh, he had Lou
Gehrig's disease, I think ALS there.

Um, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,
and, Mike Gallon and they called, he

had a gun shop back in the day called
Mike's musket shop and multimillionaire,

really interesting fellow.

He was the one that, uh, when you're
talking with my wife earlier about, uh,

staying in the place with all the rats.

So multimillionaire left all of his
money, uh, to his wife and his kid

and made himself a cinder block hut
out in Lillooet where the Bridge

River and the Ellicott River meet.

And his mailing address at that time
was all to a post office box and I

was helping him out there for a while.

So while I was there, my mailing
address was out at a post office box.

This isn't an uncommon situation, right?

There's people who will not have a
physical location and there's going

to be people who don't necessarily
store firearms at their residence, they

store it at a gun shop, they store it
at their, The business and my business

might have a business firearms license.

So you don't actually have to
have a fixed address in order

to have restricted firearms.

Rachel Athila: Really?

Travis Bader: Really.

And

Rachel Athila: there's a mic drop.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

So that was kind of an
interesting one that I've learned.

I know that a lot of people say, well, I
remember I went through this one too with

the chief firearms officer and, uh, Uh,
going back and forth and specifically on

the fixed address, um, uh, requirement.

Cause they said, no, you need
it, you need it, you need it.

And finally, after about, uh, close to
a year later, uh, our chief firearms

officer was able to come back and say,
here's where we get our legal authority.

I had to go to the parliamentary records
and there's this, uh, thing called the

order prescribing forms and, Documents
or something along these lines, because

we ask for it on this form, that's
where we get our legal authority.

And I say, that doesn't
make any sense to me.

Right.

It's supposed to be, it's
on this form because there's

a legal requirement for it.

Not, we put it on the form.

It passed all the scrutiny
to be on the form.

And now that's what we're
leaning on for our legal.

Uh, our legal standing.

So,

Rachel Athila: so take home from that.

If you're a guide, if you're a
transient, if you're a worker, you,

you can actually move forward on this.

A

Travis Bader: hundred percent.

You can't, you don't have to have.

Rachel Athila: That's a big thing for me
that I was told because I didn't have, and

like I said, Allegedly, I was told because
I didn't meet certain requirements,

you know, and doing due diligence,
I didn't want to, you know, leave a

firearm in a safe at, you know, whosoever
address I was most common to go to.

Right.

Because I was trying
to do the right thing.

Right.

Well, as long

Travis Bader: as you're the one with
the Control over that firearm, right?

You can.

With a

Rachel Athila: lock to the safe,
which I had and everything else.

So there you go.

Travis Bader: And when you think about
it, like my first ATC was for a number

of car company I was working for.

I didn't own the firearm.

They all belonged to the company.

I go there, I pick up the gun, load it
up, holster the thing, go do my work,

come back, unload it, leave it there.

So there's going to be situations
where people have them stored

either under a business license
or under their own individual

license, but storage is not allowed.

Doesn't, as long as the firearms
program has an understanding of

where they are, cause that part is
actually written out in the law.

Uh, they have to know where, where the
guns are, so you just let them know.

Rachel Athila: Yeah, absolutely.

There you go.

That's a big thing for myself.

That was,

Travis Bader: that

Rachel Athila: was probably one of
the biggest hindering moments, um,

was I didn't know if I qualified.

And, and again, I couldn't find a very
staunch answer for it, a yes or a no.

So it wasn't until 2020, I had
the opportunity to partner with

Sig Sauer right before COVID.

So all of a sudden, all of my ambitions
and dreams to be able to have a

pistol, uh, started to come true.

Unfortunately, the world shut down.

I was supposed to be in transit
going to Arizona for, um, six to

eight months on a work permit.

So I was going to have
my pistols down there.

Travis Bader: Right.

Rachel Athila: So unfortunately,
you know, COVID happened.

Um, And then for the listeners that might
not know, in Canada in 2022, it became

part of legislation that we were going to
have a pistol freeze or handgun freeze.

And so I had been scrambling because
in my head, I still thought I

have to have a permanent address.

I didn't belong to a gun range.

I didn't, I mean, I had a horse
trailer and a truck and I was working

calving jobs and guiding jobs.

So I let a lot of my preconceived notions.

Drive the fact that I couldn't
go after securing those pistols

to get them moved here to Canada.

Travis Bader: Interesting.

Rachel Athila: So.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

And honestly, I think that's,
your story isn't unique out of all

the people that I've worked with,
I hear it time and time again.

Oh, you can't do it cause.

Right.

And they've got all
these different reasons.

You can't do it cause, or I heard my buddy
and they said, it's essentially illusory.

If a law is so far out of reach and
it's so, uh, unobtainable that it's

deemed to be illusory, then it can be
struck down or it can come under review

again, not a lawyer, but there's,
there's a legal process for all of that.

Um, so my hope and our hope, your hope
through doing this is that we take that

illusory aspect to all of this and we
put it into a bit more of a concrete.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

So check one, you don't have
to have your permanent fixed

address as getting your ATC.

And I think that's a
big step moving forward.

Had I known that years ago?

Travis Bader: You would have had it.

So the other interesting thing that people
need to understand, and a firearms officer

took me aside and told me this, it says,
look at Travis, we've got a mandate to

scrutinize ATC applicants really, really
carefully and to deny as many as possible.

We don't want to be issuing this.

We don't want people going out.

This is our mandate.

This is what we've been told.

Um, whether that's true or not, or just
something, this firearms officer took me

aside and was blowing smoke, who knows.

Right.

But if that's true, and I have no reason
to doubt the veracity of that statement,

that there is an internal mandate to
not issue them, then people have to

understand, okay, if I'm approaching
this, I have to Understand how this game

is going to be played, how we're going
to play ball together so that whoever it

is that has their name that has to stamp
off and say, they're giving it to you

can be a, provided all of the assurances
that they're, uh, doing things properly

and they can go back to their boss and
say, I had to cause the law said ABC

and I put up my points and my objections
and note, this person's a legitimate

candidate and they should get it.

So, um, How you talk and
deal with that civil servant.

If you have offhand comments or
jokes and, uh, they'll get rid of it.

It's

Rachel Athila: very much a work interview.

In my experience, you know, uh, I was
very thankful to cross paths with you

because I was able to bounce ideas and,
and just even certain the way that I

phrase things, you know, um, People
have to take this with seriousness.

You are asking to carry
a pistol on your hip.

I mean, in the States, you can go and buy
one and you have it home in half an hour.

Here in Canada, we've had legislation
that has been abolished in the past.

You do, it is a life saving tool,
but it is also, you know, a weapon.

And I think people, you know, I, my
biggest fear is that people are going

to take this podcast and go, well,
I'm just going to go apply for it.

But like you say, you have
to be serious in your intent.

You can not come across as flippant.

You can not come across as this
is just, you know, a means to

an end to carry a pistol to feel
like John Wayne for the weekend.

Right?

Well,

Travis Bader: that's it.

Well, and it's funny that in the States,
like I talked to Brad Brooks, he owns

our galley and he says, I can't believe
you guys aren't afforded the ability to

go hunting with a bow and have a handgun
for protection against bear, right?

And like in their world, this
is, It's just completely out,

the launch is ridiculous.

Right.

And in our world, it's
like, Oh, a handgun.

That's that's extra dangerous.

It's that's extra scary.

And really it's, there's no difference
between your handgun and your rifle,

except the bullet doesn't travel as fast.

It doesn't travel as far.

It doesn't do as much damage.

It's just, just smaller,

Rachel Athila: but it's been
criminalized in Canada, pistols.

And, you know, restricted
rifles are criminalized.

I remember the first time I touched
a pistol when I went to the States,

it was like the forbidden fruit.

And I literally, I literally sat
back and I was like, you're just

gonna have to pretend like I don't
know what I'm doing with this.

And then the people I was with, I
said, run me through everything.

Because in Canada, and I hunt, I guide,
I have been around weapons a long time,

but even my own prejudice on the pistol
was everything that we had been taught.

So I think a lot of it is
stepping away from this prejudice

that we put on this tool.

Like you said, it is still a
projectile that comes out of a

shorter, smaller, more compact firearm.

Travis Bader: And you brought up a
good point there too, cause you called

it a weapon and gun people like, it's
not a weapon, it's a firearm, right?

Well, actually in Canada, if you look
at the law, a weapon is what it's

anything used, designed to be used,
intended to be used to cause, uh, death

or serious bodily, grievous bodily
harm to another individual or used to

intimidate or threaten those things.

And I'm paraphrasing the lie.

I've actually got it here, but I'll
paraphrase it and without precluding the

generality of the foregoing includes.

A

Rachel Athila: firearm,

Travis Bader: right?

And then a firearm could also just
be the frame or receiver of it.

So in Canada.

Guns are legally considered weapons.

Rachel Athila: Exactly.

Travis Bader: So that, that's part of
the idea and framework that we're also

looking at when we go through this is
if you come from the United States and

you're like, I just want this thing to
protect my life and laws say they're here.

You're going to be treated as an
individual who's looking for protection.

So, let's take a look, I've got a
couple, before I get into it, did

you want to say anything before I?

Rachel Athila: No, I think like that's
a, I think this is a really great

precursor because, you know, we have
to identify one, the major thing as gun

owners, we have to have a registered
address because years ago we had to be

able to register all our firearms, you
know, there's been different legislation

that's moved through over the last, you
However many years, however far we want

to go back, everything seems to change.

So I think it's important to people to
know that if they work in this industry

or an industry that's relatable, you
can own one as long as you obviously are

solely responsible for where it's locked,
where it's kept, you know, speak to that.

If I've misrepresented that.

Yeah.

Travis Bader: No, you can own it.

Yeah.

Rachel Athila: And two, obviously this
has to be taken seriously because this

is, you know, a life saving device.

It is a tool.

Um, A very handy tool at that.

And I think that sets the
stage as we jump into it.

Beautiful.

Let's find out who can carry these.

Travis Bader: Okay.

So we've got the laws, these laws,
you guys could download them.

You look on online, these under
the regulations, circumstances

in which an individual needs.

And they put the word needs.

So that's an important one.

Restricted firearms or prohibited handguns
for the purpose of section 20 of the act.

And so restricted firearms, generally
we're talking about handguns

in Canada, but there are other
restricted long guns, prohibited

handguns, it, uh, lays out those are
going to be what 32 and 25 caliber.

Maybe, maybe not depends what
you're using them for, but they

will fall in the prohibited handgun
area, uh, 105 millimeter or less.

Barrel length.

Uh, when I first was carrying a
gun around, it had an under 105

millimeters, so it was a prohibited.

Rachel Athila: That's prohibited.

Yeah.

Travis Bader: Prohibited handgun.

Yeah.

So I'll read through some of the laws.

I won't go through all of them,
but I'll just, I think it's

important that we just kind of
look at the words as we go through.

We'll, Brush on the first one, for the
purpose of Section 20 of the Act, the

circumstances of which an individual
needs restricted firearms or prohibited

handguns to protect the life of that
individual or other individuals are

where, A, the life of that individual or
other individuals is in imminent danger

from one or more other individuals.

Imminent danger.

Being the key word, like, okay, right now,
not like going a year from now, imminent.

B, police protection is not sufficient
in the circumstances and C, the

possession of a restricted firearm or
prohibited handgun can reasonably be

justified for protecting the individual
or other individual, individuals

from death or grievous bodily harm.

Okay.

So we know what death is.

Grievous bodily harm.

Do you know what that is?

Rachel Athila: Grievous bodily harm,
I would imagine if someone's intending

you harm, um, you're putting yourself
into a situation where you are unarmed.

Travis Bader: So the courts have
generally, from what I've seen,

again, not legal advice, but they've
looked at grievous bodily harm as

being something that's, let's say
broken bones, uh, major disfigurement.

So your amputations, uh, would be
a form of grievous bodily harm.

Someone's going to try
and break your bone.

They say, okay, that's, I can
defend my life because we don't

know where this is going to stop.

Um, unconsciousness would be one of them
would be considered grievous bodily harm.

So if you're getting choked unconscious
and that happened, um, to you.

Here a number of years ago, um,
uh, it was in the newspapers, I

think it was a hockey, uh, it was
a hockey player or a hockey game.

Someone had a few too many drinks
and ended up, um, shot by the

police, uh, in police custody.

And they said, well, this person was
trying to choke the officer unconscious.

And that constitutes,

Rachel Athila: um, Grievous bodily harm.

Travis Bader: Grievous
bodily harm, uh, severe cuts.

So these are going to
be, uh, Yeah, slashing

Rachel Athila: with harm to intent.

Right.

Travis Bader: So that's
generally kind of what grievous

bodily harm kind of looks at.

So I think it's good that
people look at the framework.

The number of people who actually get
an ATC issued for this are slim to none.

So

Rachel Athila: what's, what,
what industry would that be then?

Travis Bader: So.

What I've heard anecdotally, um, and
we do work all across Canada, um,

deal with different police agencies.

What I've heard allegedly, this is
going to be, let's say a judge is

dealing with, uh, organized crime.

There's a verified threat and, um,
they say, well, here you go, here's

something, make sure you protect yourself.

Right.

Uh, the times I've heard that happen,
they've just given the individual.

A firearm or the person had a firearm.

This is sure not a problem.

You can pack it.

Despite the fact that if we
read further, they say you've

got to have proper training.

You don't have these things, but if you
think about it, if someone's an imminent.

Do we have time to be able to give
that training and all that vetting?

So this is one that I don't have
the most experience with aside from

working with, I remember a gun store
back in the day, there was concern

over being robbed and there's,
it's happened at other gun stores.

There's one in the, in British Columbia,
this is going back a bit, but, um,

uh, robbery, I believe the, uh, the
owners were both killed in this one.

Um, and so anyways, this gun
store owner looked at it and

says, I'm dealing in an industry.

It's the criminal element.

It's desirable for them to be around here.

I want to be able to protect myself.

So they went through,
they did the training.

We went, met all of the different points
and the firearms officer came back

and said, and it was, it was a game.

It was go home, pack it forth.

Like we don't want to issue
it, but we can't really say no.

And they, it was kind of like a funny,
aha, I think we've got you here.

Right.

They said, we will issue.

Your ATC for what you've requested,
because you've met all of the

requirements, uh, save one, we just
need you to give us a letter from the

chief of police saying that police
protection is not adequate for you.

What chief of police is going to write off
and say, police protection isn't adequate.

And the reality is what's that
old saying when seconds count,

the police are minutes away.

Like we need, we need the, if
you need the police right now,

Rachel Athila: and

Travis Bader: there is
a threat on your life.

Rachel Athila: Well,
they can't be everywhere.

They

Travis Bader: can't, unless,
unless they just happen to be

in the store at the same time.

But, uh, they came back after as they
said, well, I got to hand it to you.

You've come the closest to getting
issued one of these that we've

seen under your circumstances.

Anyways, that, that was sort of my
experience on that one, as well as

the, all the anecdotal of, uh, judges
or people that are being given one

hastily because they need one and
then immediately after that threat's

no longer there, it's revoked.

Rachel Athila: Gotcha.

So short term, temporary.

Yeah,

Travis Bader: that's it.

Yeah.

So there's only, if
there's an imminent threat.

Um, next one is where you fall in,
and this is the one where we've had

a hundred percent success rate with
everyone that we've worked with lawful

profession or occupation for the
purposes of section 20 of the act, the

circumstances in which an individual
needs restricted firearms or prohibited

handguns for use in connection with his
or her lawful profession or occupation.

or occupation, or where a, the
individual's principal activity is the

handling, transportation, or protection
of cash, negotiable instruments, or

other goods of substantial value, and
firearms are required for the purposes of

protecting his or her life, or the lives
of other individuals in the course of that

handling, transportation, or protection.

Or protection activity.

So that's an armored
car guard essentially.

So they're going to get one, their
principal primary activity is

transport of cash or negotiables.

Interesting ones that we've seen that
have been issued under there would be,

um, A guy had a stamp business and he's
transporting stamps back and forth.

Rachel Athila: Oh, really?

Yeah.

Travis Bader: And that was a, considered
a, uh, negotiable instrument or

other goods of substantial value.

I've heard of, um, I've seen
them for marijuana transport, for

Rachel Athila: I mean, we are in BC.

We are in BC.

Travis Bader: Um, And for transporting
of firearms, if that's where you're

transporting them back and forth
and they're issued one for that.

So there's a whole bunch of use
cases and it's pretty wide open.

Basically, if an individual wants that
license, uh, their principal activity.

That they're going to say is handling,
transporting, or protecting of

cash, negotiable instruments, or
other goods of substantial value.

And the important one in all of that
is again, isn't there to protect the

cash or the negotiable instruments
or goods of substantial value.

Rachel Athila: It's to protect the person.

Travis Bader: That's it.

It's only there to protect life.

Someone says, give me all your
money or I'm going to kill you.

Here's the money.

Rachel Athila: Yep.

Travis Bader: There it is.

It's easy, right?

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

It's,

Travis Bader: Then they would want
to take that next step and they're

going to put your life in the threat
of death or grievous bodily harm.

That's when you start getting into
the justifiable use of that firearm

and the use case for that firearm.

That goes into a whole
different discussion on use

of force and probably goes.

And probably

Rachel Athila: negotiations
and everything else.

But I think that's a very important
way of actually depicting that is

that in that situation, you're They're
going to try not to use the firearm.

You're going to use justifiable
cause to say, you know what?

Here's what, here's a token
you're after, take it.

Travis Bader: Yes.

Rachel Athila: I think that's the biggest
thing is that you, just because you have

your permit and your pistol doesn't mean
you necessarily always want to use it.

You don't want to be
flying off the handle.

So that's where it comes into the
rationale and the mindset behind it.

I think it's hugely important when people
are taking into this as consideration.

Travis Bader: What do they say,
if you're a hammer, everything

looks like a nail, right?

Rachel Athila: I, I mean, I haven't
heard that one in a while, but that, I

think that just definitely falls in suit.

Travis Bader: Right.

Oh, I got my gun.

There you go.

Now, where do I use it?

Here I go.

Rachel Athila: Start
looking like Yosemite Sam.

Travis Bader: That's right.

So, uh, It's interesting, that
mindset, because like in the

States, um, they've got, uh.

Shoot

Rachel Athila: first, ask questions later.

Travis Bader: Well, in some States, right?

They, but, but they also have, um,
what, why is it slipping me right now?

I've got one.

It's, um, uh, your carry permit,
your, um, CCW, concealed carry.

And, right.

And, and some are going
to be non concealed.

Some States, they have
to have them concealed.

Like in Washington, if you break
concealment, you're having a problem.

But.

You know, they get people
young, macho, got my CCW and

the, I'm going to be the hero.

I can jump in.

I can help the cops out now.

Right.

And there's a bank robbery happening.

Just here I go.

And they emphasize to a very high degree,
like, no, that that's not your role.

Right.

Something's going on.

You don't interject yourself into danger.

You leave.

If danger finds you.

Rachel Athila: You protect yourself.

You

Travis Bader: have that
to protect yourself.

And there's, that's what you're saying.

A very, uh, good point
for people to understand.

And when you're training people, you can
train people to the point that they're

just rabid dogs and they're ready to pull
the trigger on anything that moves or, uh,

That they're so intimidated based on the
laws that they just, they don't draw the

firearm in situations where they should.

So in the trainings world, finding
that healthy balance where a person

uses it in a justifiable way as
they should is, is important, um, to

protect their life and also knowing
where that, the law stands when we get

into trapping and working in remote
wilderness areas, the same thing applies.

It's not a two legged predator
that you're worried about here.

It's now four legged.

And there are times when, okay, you're
allowed to use it when you should, but it

shouldn't be your first resort that you're
going to just cause you got the gun.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Um, here we go.

Now we're getting right into the territory
you're going to be comfortable in too.

The individual is working in a
remote wilderness area and firearms

are required for the protection
of the life of that individual or

other individuals from wild animals.

Or, the individual is engaged in the
occupation of trapping in a province and

is licensed or authorized and trained as
required by the laws of that province.

You're both of those.

Rachel Athila: I am.

Travis Bader: You're one of those
unique people that have both of them.

Rachel Athila: Both, absolutely.

And let me tell you, my God,
did it feel good when I had

both permits come to my door.

Travis Bader: How long did it take?

That was one of the Instagram questions.

How long did that take you?

Rachel Athila: Four years.

Four

Travis Bader: years.

Rachel Athila: But I had a little
bit of special circumstance because

obviously I had to get pistols.

We had a handgun freeze.

I, my preconceived notion that I couldn't
have it unless I had a permanent address.

I kind of did the classic textbook, tried
to be good, but realized in being so good

that I actually was hindering myself.

Travis Bader: So

Rachel Athila: from the time
that I actually got the pistols

here in Canada, it's been from my
submission date for my application.

I hate to say it, but it
was actually pretty quick.

And thanks to Travis here, I actually was
able to get through it because I, I had to

learn a lot of why I was going after it.

Not, not only because, you know,
obviously I wanted it for personal

protection, but trying to help
illuminate that for the greater audience.

And, and that's the thing that, In
the four year process, I feel like

it was a pilgrimage, but it has also
made me appreciate them as a tool.

It has also made me furious with
the current freezes that people

are not able to acquire them for
a tool, for a life saving device.

And, and my biggest conquest now
is I want people to know that they

can, you are empowered to find the
right tools to make your job safer.

Everyone wants to go home
at the end of the day.

I love what I do.

Truly, it's been the love of my life
and I love taking people on adventure,

but a great deal of my entire career has
making sure that they make it home safe.

And so when I'm taking people into the
back country, putting them on a horse,

riding through the buck brush, you know,
hunting game, we're putting ourselves

in the perfect storm, touch wood, that
you hopefully never have to deal with.

But there are so many people
that do have encounters and I

just, it is my greatest hope that
people can take this information.

And apply it to their own lives so
that they don't have themselves caught

with their pants down, so to speak, you
know, and they have the tools to make

their job safer at the end of the day.

Travis Bader: Once we started working
together, how, how long was it?

Rachel Athila: So I submitted
my application in December.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Rachel Athila: Um, that's a two
part answer as well, because I

didn't have the right information
and I know we talked about that.

So from, I submitted it in
December, I didn't mail it in.

I electronically sent it, that was
the ticket because I also was coming

into my first trapping season.

So December, I officially got my
paperwork, uh, the beginning of May.

So, you know, six months,
six, seven months.

Problem is, is I originally submitted
my application for, um, requesting the

ATC without having done the actual test.

Um, the, or the proficiency program.

Because there was grey areas in the
legislation, and this is just my own

opinion, but there, there wasn't a
consistent line saying go ahead and do

your proof of proficiency, send in your
application, um, correct me, uh, it's

the 5493 or whatever form it is that you
send in the application for the permit.

Travis Bader: Mm hmm.

Rachel Athila: You actually, I was told
that this permit was at a standstill

because I didn't have the rest of it.

Travis Bader: It's, and it's going
to take a person going through

these things to think very carefully
as they fill it out and to read

things carefully and to question.

Um, so that it's clear in their mind, if
they're dealing with a firearms officer or

a civil servant, and they say, well, you
need this first, or you need that first.

Yeah.

And just say, okay, not a problem.

Right.

Rachel Athila: Exactly.

I

Travis Bader: have no problem
complying with whatever the

requirements or policy are.

Rachel Athila: Yep.

Travis Bader: But can you
give that to me in writing?

So I make sure that I've got
some sort of paper trail.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

I'm just trying to reference it
here, but yes, there was, that was, I

think the biggest hangup for myself.

Here it is.

What is this form here?

The form that in question is the 5491E.

So that is the authorization, the
application for the authorization

to carry restricted firearms
and prohibited handguns.

So I was in a bit of a special scenario.

Because I'm very excited and
honored to work with SIG Sauer.

I had two pistols that were a part of my
package that were meant to come to myself.

I had my restricted license, you know,
obviously I could take them to and from

the gun range here in Canada, but I
wanted to go after the ATC, but because

I, so where, where my mix up is, Travis,
if we're going to dive into that is

not only did I have these two pistols.

They were under a company at the time.

So my big hangup is that I
was training with pistols.

Once I finally got them to my address,
which took three years, um, is that

because they're registered under the
address to get your ATC, you have to

prove proficient on the pistol that you
hope to then have your ATC acquired to.

So I started jumping through all
of these rabbit holes to train, and

that's where I thought I had to have
that first application done to be

able to transport them to and from.

Lawfully and legally, you
know, um, to go after my

Travis Bader: ATC,

Rachel Athila: you know, yes, online,
you can do your, um, your online portal.

You go through and you have your
authorization to carry or transport.

Sorry.

So to go to, and from your gun range,
you have to call it in, submit it

that way when you have restricted.

My problem was, is that the,
they weren't registered to me.

So I ran into hiccups.

I, I was able to work under a
business license because I am an

ambassador for a mutual company.

So I was able to kind of circumvent and
go another route to be able to train.

But in this, I, I had all of these
little claw hooks that kept coming in

that looked like they were blocking me.

Travis Bader: And I think one of the
difficult parts that you had was he

had a firearms officer who was More
than happy to help out, but you know,

they've got a job, they go in every day.

They're not going to lay their
job out on the line to do you

with some sort of special favor.

They want to make sure their I's are
dotted and their T's are crossed.

And it's a lot of times when people
are applying, particularly for an

authorization to carry, this is
new ground for a firearms officer.

Absolutely.

They're going to have the exact
same sort of, I don't know, but I

was told that you have to do this.

And I was told, and that's where this
podcast will hopefully create a bit more.

Rachel Athila: So I think like stepping
back to, if I were, or sorry, so when we

talk about timeline, it was November where
I actually submitted that, uh, 5491E.

Travis Bader: Mm hmm.

Rachel Athila: I heard crickets.

So I finally, I started calling the CFO
of British Columbia and I said, look,

this is the program I've submitted to.

They said, well, I'm You know, have you
actually done your proof of proficiency?

Travis Bader: And I

Rachel Athila: was like, well,
no, because it looks like I have

to submit this application before
I jumped through this hoop.

And I think that was right around
the time in November that we started

communicating back and forth.

And you're like, well, I think
you can go ahead and do this.

I know you can.

So that's where in my timeline, because
I didn't, I didn't have a rule book

saying X, Y, Z, this is how you get
to the formula and say your alphabet.

And once I had submitted that.

I then went right ahead and I started
practicing at the range and therein

lied another problem because I found
out that the registration of my one

particular firearm that I was going
after and challenging for my trapper's

application was actually misregistered.

It was misregistered as a prohibited, even
though I had a very heated conversation,

Travis Bader: not

Rachel Athila: heated on my behalf,
but I was scared witless because I

thought I was in app, I thought I was in
contention and here I had been traveling

to and from under a business license.

I had pictures of it and
I, I had measured it.

Travis Bader: But when

Rachel Athila: I was caught off guard
away from my pistol, driving to Prince

George, you know, they're saying,
you, you have a firearm, like hell's

bells and whistles are coming down.

Travis Bader: And

Rachel Athila: I remember calling you in
tears and I was like, I, I I'm screwed.

I'm never going to get it.

Travis Bader: I remember trying
to talk you off that ledge.

Rachel Athila: There was a ledge
and I was hanging on by a branch.

Travis Bader: And I said, they're wrong.

They're wrong.

Right.

Rachel Athila: You did.

Travis Bader: Uh, You have
nothing to worry about.

Make sure you cover your
butt with paper, essentially.

Um, but it's prohibited.

Right.

But you're under a business license
and a business license is licensed

for prohibited and you're properly
listed in the same way that I carried

a prohibited firearm for a few years
there working for an armored car company.

Yep.

You were doing the exact same thing.

And then we dug a little
bit deeper and said,

Rachel Athila: can you

Travis Bader: get the tape measure out?

Can we see if this guy's
actually prohibited or not?

And it's interesting because, uh,
sometimes I can see in myself, I'll have

a bit of an oppositional approach when
dealing with, um, a firearms officer

who I, in my mind, or any sort of
person who's in a regulatory position.

And in my mind, I'm like, they don't
know what they're talking about, right?

They're wrong.

Right.

Yeah.

And there's, it always
comes back to my head.

There's a, um, old poem
called the stop sign.

His way was right.

His will was strong.

He's just as dead as if he was wrong.

Right.

Okay.

The guy's like, Oh, the other
one's, other car's got a stop sign.

I got the right away.

Doesn't look like you're going to stop,
but nope, that signs, I got all the rules

on my side, just because you're right.

This person was right.

He was dead right.

Right.

Just because you're right, doesn't
mean that's a way to approach it.

So that's where that personality part
comes in because the firearms officer

dealing with this may or may not have
known all of those different points.

Yes.

I don't think that firearms officer
wanted to see you made into a criminal,

wants to make sure that they're assisting
you because they're a regulatory body.

Their job really is to help you.

Bring people into compliance.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

Travis Bader: That's their job.

Rachel Athila: And I think that was a
very big turning point for me, because

obviously I said, you know, sir, with
all due respect, I don't believe I do,

but let me, I'm on the road right now.

Let me get home.

And how can I contact you?

Because obviously I
want to make this right.

I could have flown off the handle and
been like throwing people under the bus,

but, and, you know, I ended up having a
relationship, like a good friendship over

this, where, you In a business sense,
where I was like, look, I am, I'm trying

to do this to the best of my ability.

There are so many gray areas here.

What do I need to do and show
and, and help because this is

something I'm very passionate about.

I am working by myself.

I live extremely remotely, you know,
I, I also, the other part was is that

I was challenging a higher caliber
because I have a caliber that's in

between for dispatching wildlife.

It's a 22 caliber for protection
of life on your trapper's permit.

It has to be a 40 cal or like a 10 mil.

I'm at a nine mil and they do have
the authorization if in due cause.

To help, you know, make that,
uh, restricted effort go forward.

Travis Bader: And we'll talk about
that a bit as we go through too.

And I think, um, so go way
back on how long does it take?

So we have an idea of what it takes for
you for getting the, uh, uh, the permit.

The fastest I've seen
it is under 24 hours.

Rachel Athila: Wow.

I was not 24 hours.

Travis Bader: Right.

So that's the fastest.

And, uh, every time you, uh,
apply for your ATC, it's the exact

same process when you reapply.

However, when you reapply, it's easier
for the human to look at this and say,

well, they've been approved before.

They met all the same criteria
as they did the first time.

Here we go.

Right.

And less things that change on
our end, I am now obliged to give

them that, uh, that approval.

So that brings me to, uh, one piece of
the puzzle that you mentioned there,

which was you're being told to do
something and where old me many years

back, it'd be like, no, you're wrong.

Here's the act.

Here's the regulations.

Right.

And I remember sitting at a, uh,
computer and I had a, um, A friend of

mine, he's a retired analyst for a large
company and he did strategy for them.

And we're having a conversation and I
think he's in his eighties right now.

And he says, Oh, hold on a second.

I hammer something on the email
and get back to the conversation.

He says, Travis, can I ask you
what was so important that you

interrupt our, our conversation?

To send an email and then get back to it.

I said, Oh yeah, the,
you know, fire's program.

They said, A, B, and C, and I'm
showing them that they're wrong.

I just copied and pasted
the act and showed them.

And he says, how's that
working out for you?

I said, honestly, not super great.

Right.

He says.

When you're dealing with anybody,
any civil servant, any person,

why don't you ask them questions?

Why don't you put them into a corner, but
give them a door that they can get out of.

Right?

So rather than saying, no,
you're wrong cause, right?

Ask a question to say like
what you did there was perfect.

I think I'm right.

Because the only extra thing
that I would say is cover your

butt in paper, not a problem.

I think I'm right, but I
will do what you're saying.

Can you give it to me
in writing in an email?

So I have a copy of that.

So as I proceed forward, or if
I'm dealing with somebody else,

they know that I'm doing things.

Yes.

In a way that's, uh, proper.

And that does two things that protects
you as you're working through.

But when we talked about how every
single license is issued as if it's

brand new, that systemizes the process.

I met it last time.

How do I not meet it this time?

Right.

If you do the exact same thing.

Rachel Athila: And it shows your
level of professionalism as well.

And I think that was one of the
biggest parts, um, like where I kind

of took matters into my own hands and
sent that email saying, you know, I

had a good tagline upcoming trapping
season, you know, urgent request.

And it was, um, it was very imminent.

I am out here by myself.

Uh, and then.

Obviously I was able to start a
feed of conversation because like

you said, everything had a trail.

I could back it up.

I could also ask the questions that
weren't being answered or if I wasn't

understanding, that's another part
is you can ask questions, you can get

an answer, but if you still aren't
understanding, there's no harm in

saying, could you please elaborate?

Travis Bader: I don't understand.

Rachel Athila: Exactly.

And, and that was something that
I think moving forward on all

of the extra training I've done
through my other industry programs.

You know, it helps.

Oh my gosh, it helps.

Travis Bader: I like that.

I don't understand because
quite often people will say,

nope, this is how it's done.

You got to do this.

Rachel Athila: I

Travis Bader: don't understand.

Well, let me explain it to you.

Oh, hold on a second.

Yeah.

I don't understand either.

I see where you're going, right?

Because in the same process,
people will think, well, this

is how it's always been done.

Here's how we do it moving forward.

Maybe not.

Right.

And just like when I queried our chief
firearms officer, he A hundred percent.

You got to do it like this.

I don't know.

I don't understand.

Can you show me?

Right.

Took a year.

Oh, it's because of this obscure document
that only certain people have access

to and it's in the form prescribing.

Okay.

Well, that sounds kind of
wishy washy, but I get it.

I was able to get what I was looking
for anyways, in the end, because.

I don't need to make the
person look like a fool.

I can paint them in a corner and
give them that door to get out.

That's not a problem, but I don't
need to rub it in their face.

And I, and I see that often with, uh,
when people get frustrated, I've seen it

because I work in the firearms community.

When people in the firearms community
get frustrated, like you can't do

that to me and you can't do this.

Yeah.

You might be right, but
is that helping you?

Is that getting you to
where you need to go?

Rachel Athila: Yeah, absolutely.

So I think that's the biggest thing,
you know, when you, Is understanding,

you know, there is a process to it if
whatever industry you find yourself in,

whether you're trapping forestry, you
know, some of the other remote sectors,

if you're, there's bear monitors out
there, they, they use shotguns and slugs,

but, you know, for personal protection.

Travis Bader: Um, who

Rachel Athila: knows, uh, the
opportunities might be endless as

guides, you know, remote ranching.

Um, the biggest thing that I wish
I would have known, what process

and what applications go first, how
can a person, what is the formula

Travis Bader: for

Rachel Athila: success?

I mean, obviously, and like you say, it
comes, success can be measured in a very

different ways and it does come down to
the civil servant that you're working for.

And it also comes down to how you
answer the questions and that's

where it leads into, you know, If
you're, if you're getting set up for

this, do I meet the requirements?

You know, one, do I have a pistol
I can train with or one that's my

own, or perhaps I can get access
to, two, what's my next step?

What application do I need to do first?

So given that I went and did the first
application for the submission, not

necessarily the right application first.

So leaning on you and every
program that you've helped with.

Travis Bader: Well, why don't
we take a look at it here?

We've got, we've got two
different forms here.

And one is a form called a chief
firearms officer of British

Columbia and Yukon proof of
firearms proficiency for trapping.

The other one is all the same, but it says
proof of proficiency for the protection

of life in remote wilderness areas.

Now, this is British Columbia, but they
have been trying to standardize it.

And if one province does it, it's
easy for another province to say.

Well, I'm not reinventing the wheel.

They've done it.

They've paved the way.

Why don't we lean on them?

And it causes them to have to come up with
Uh, something extra, something above and

beyond if they're going to issue a denial.

And we'll talk about denials
probably at the end of this.

Which one do you want to talk
about first, trapping or working

in the remote wilderness area?

Rachel Athila: Oh, you know what I
let's, let's start with trapping because

I think wilderness appeals to a lot
of people, but trapping is, is a, is

a There's a kind of a relic to it.

It's not something that's done or
practiced in a lot of traditional, I mean,

my own nephews were like, Andy, trapping
died in the 1800s with the fur trade.

And I was kind of like, well, boys.

Travis Bader: We're bringing it

Rachel Athila: back.

We're bringing

Travis Bader: it back.

So.

These are very similar in approach.

So we'll go through trapping first and
we'll just put the differences once we

go into the, uh, protection of life.

So

Rachel Athila: should we preface this?

This is what you should be doing
if you're going after the trapping.

We've already assessed that you want to be
able to shoot, so you should probably have

access to a gun that you're going to prove
proficient on the appropriate calibers.

And the next is, you know, Um,
you've met the requirements cause

you are, you have your trapper's
license, especially for trapping.

You have to have your trapper's license.

With a trapper's license, you have
to be registered to a trap line.

That helps move it forward.

Travis Bader: That can help.

Yes.

That

Rachel Athila: can help.

Also private property, permission
on your own, elsewhere.

So those are the major things you
have to show that you are actively

engaged with the opportunity to
participate as a trapper professionally.

Travis Bader: Yes.

And I think the key word
in all of that is working.

Rachel Athila: Yes.

Travis Bader: Because that's
one that kept coming up when I

deal with the Firearms Program.

Cause I said, well, what
about working on your cabin?

I'm working on a new roof.

I'm working on the fence.

Right.

Which is

Rachel Athila: all things
to get ready for the season.

You, as a trapper, it is
a year round activity.

Travis Bader: Right.

So as long as that's.

Applies to a occupation, lawful
profession or occupation.

That doesn't mean it's
your full time occupation.

That doesn't even mean it has to
be like half the time occupation.

Rachel Athila: But it's your occupation.

Travis Bader: But it's an occupation.

So that's something that's going
to hopefully at some day, Bring

money in, maybe not, maybe it
costs you a bunch of money.

There's a lot of occupations like that.

Right?

So there's a few.

Right.

Um, it says a proof of proficiency,
and this is going to be a qualification

course, a shooting course, uh, must
be administered by an individual who

holds a valid possession and acquisition
license, PAL, for restricted firearms

at the time of the administration.

And who has their own, uh, Either a
range safety officer or a member of

an approved shooting range executive,
or is an instructor for a recognized

firearms course or discipline.

Holy crow.

That's everybody.

Rachel Athila: That's everybody.

Travis Bader: Right?

Absolutely.

I'm a range officer.

Rachel Athila: Well, that's
what people don't understand.

You and I both go to the range.

One of us has to be the range officer.

That's right.

So

Travis Bader: if they don't
have a designated one.

Exactly.

If they don't

Rachel Athila: have a
designated one on staff.

Now there is a point in there
where it does say you do have

to have your restricted license.

Travis Bader: Right.

Rachel Athila: So that is a key
component because when you hand in

your submission, they will look up that
individual and their firearms license,

and if they don't, they will deny you.

Travis Bader: One thing I
should point out and who knows.

Or could deny

Rachel Athila: you, I should
preface, could deny you.

Travis Bader: Yeah, I think we should use.

Allegedly.

Allegedly.

We should use that language, could,
because right now what we're reading

off of is a document that was created
by a firearms officer, probably

working and trying to put everything
together in a more systemized way.

This isn't, I have gone contrary
to everything on this document

at one point or another, because
there are special use cases, uh,

that, that need to be looked at.

Just because it says it in
this policy doesn't necessarily

mean that's it for you.

If you want to get approved in that
under 24 hour timeframe, like I was

mentioning before, just go the easy route.

You got your policy, no problem.

I mean, just, just do the
work and go through it.

Rachel Athila: One of the things I
will note though, um, and this is

on the front page for the actual
authorization to carry questionnaire.

Um, sorry, do you want to pause?

So one of the big things too, is
that when you're looking at your

different, whether you, obviously
you have to be a trapper for the

trappers ATC or the wilderness carry.

So what I found with the trapping one,
and this is read right off the The

application here is that please note
this application is for the licensed

trapper to request authorization to carry
a restricted fire harm or prohibited

handgun solely for the purpose of humanely
dispatching trapped animals, solely.

Travis Bader: Right.

Rachel Athila: If you wish to request
authorization to carry a restricted

firearm or prohibited handgun for the
purpose of protecting your life from

predatory animals while working in remote
wilderness areas, you must request a

package for the remote wilderness areas.

Travis Bader: Beautiful.

I'm glad you brought that up.

Rachel Athila: So.

That's one of the things that people have
to be very cognizant of, because when

you look at that, it's a smaller caliber
as poor, you know, this application.

Right.

You can challenge it, but predominantly,
I mean, as a trapper, you want to shoot a

smaller caliber with your intended catch.

How many times as a trapper have I
learned your intending catch might

not always be What you had hoped for.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

We were talking about that right
before we accessed the core.

So anyways,

Rachel Athila: I just wanted to preface
that because I think there's a lot

that goes into that, um, because they
are two very different applications.

Travis Bader: So.

I like that.

Uh, under firearms, this is a firearm
used during the proof of proficiency and

we're going to call it a POP because they
call it a POP and it's easier than me

saying that over and over again, must be
the same firearm the applicant intends

to use for dispatching animals and traps.

Okay.

That makes sense.

If you're going to qualify, qualify
in the gun you're going to use.

It makes a lot of sense.

Is that always the way that
is done when they issue ATCs?

Armor car guards don't shoot
their same gun that they carry.

They might get a different gun every
day if they're a casual worker.

So, uh, probably the same make and model,
probably, maybe, maybe not necessarily.

Rachel Athila: And I'm going to give you
a hot tip for all the listeners listening,

right now, especially here in Canada,
once you prove qualified for your ATC, you

have the ability to purchase two firearms.

That was shared with me by a CFO,

allegedly.

Travis Bader: Allegedly.

Rachel Athila: So I, like, I
don't know, but that's like, and

this is just in conversation,
whether you want to add it or not.

Um, that was something that was shared
to me by a CFO, because it's Legally,

if you go through, say you're, say
you have a make and model that you

are going to be proving proficient on
that, you know, we're at the gun range,

um, and shooting, that's where there's
such a gray area is that for people

that don't have pistols right now,
that's the biggest question I've had.

I don't have a pistol.

How can I go and do my trapper's
course for my ATC or my wilderness?

I fit all the requirements except for
I'm still on the waiting list at Cora

Lanes because the freeze came in and
not enough pistols came to Canada.

Travis Bader: Right.

Rachel Athila: So what I'm trying to find
out and what I've, my biggest request is

how can those people train on a pistol?

Travis Bader: So Canada can't just deny
you the ability to protect your life.

Well, let's, let's look at how I, how I
framed that one, allegedly, allegedly.

Right.

Um, if you need to protect your life and
there is a legal method for you to do so.

Mm hmm.

They can't turn around and make
that whole process illusory, because

something happens to you and you've
gone through this whole process and

let's say you're mauled by a bear
and you could have perfect protected

yourself and defended yourself.

It's going to come back on that
office and that civil servant.

So there, there needs to be ways
for them to protect themselves.

And one of them is businesses
could still get firearms.

Right.

Um, individuals who are
working, who need them.

There's, there's still
provisions for this.

It's not well thought out.

It's not the act and the regulations
and the way that the, uh, OACs have been

written, aren't the best thought out.

So it leaves people scrambling in
the firearms program to try and

figure out how to interpret it.

And sometimes the easiest way is I'll
just stick my head in the sand, right?

But you push, you make sure those who
can, who should get it, can get it.

So the a hundred percent,
that's, that's staying in.

Rachel Athila: Yeah.

So I, and I think that's something
that people should know is just

because they don't have a pistol right
now, doesn't mean that you can't.

Prove proficient, pass the course,
and then pursue an avenue to try

and acquire the appropriate firearm.

That's right.

Travis Bader: Um, an applicant can only
apply for a maximum of two firearms

to be listed on their authorization
to carry ATC in a period of POP

must be completed for each firearm.

So they put that into there.

They say two guns, really, when
you get your, uh, authorization to

carry, uh, they could put whatever
they want in the conditions.

Go on.

Yeah.

Rachel Athila: So that's, well, the other
thing too, is that you have, you can

apply for the two guns, but you are only
lawfully allowed to carry one at a time.

That is a major thing.

You can get props, proof of proficiency
for two, but at any one time while

performing your duty, you are
only holstered with one firearm.

Travis Bader: That's right.

That's yes.

And I always have a difficult time when
they say you can only, You can always,

cause I've seen so many exceptions to the
rule and when a chief arms officer can

put in, uh, conditions that tighten it
down, they can also put conditions that'll

make it wider, make the usage case wider.

So just cause we see it written here,
doesn't necessarily mean that this

is the way that's done, but we'll
go through, this is the happy path.

Rachel Athila: This is the happy path.

Absolutely.

Travis Bader: Um, the maximum caliber
accepted for dispatching or trapping

animals is 22 caliber rimfire, unless
special dispensation is sought from the

office of the chief firearms officer.

Rachel Athila: Hello.

Hello.

So given the fact that obviously
I acquired these two pistols on

the nine millimeter and the 10
millimeter, and there's a handgun

freeze, I couldn't go and purchase.

A 22 caliber.

Now there have been instances, there
was a bear attack in Alaska where

an officer was able to dispatch a
black bear with a nine millimeter.

It is a lethal killing caliber
for protection of life.

It is also a small enough caliber that it
can be used to dispatch intended catch.

So in my special circumstance, I actually
challenged it and I proved proficient.

With my nine millimeter.

And when I had my interview, I
just said, look, I understand.

I'm asking for a caliber
higher than the actual amount.

Unfortunately, due to the
requirements at the time and the

freeze that's in, in act, I am unable
to acquire a different caliber.

This one is proficient X, Y, and Z.

I would like to move this application.

Travis Bader: And they
said, not a problem.

That's right.

Rachel Athila: Because I was able to
give a cognizant, thoughtful answer.

Travis Bader: Interesting.

Recent one, I've just read
about a grizzly bear taken down

with an eye millimeter as well.

You know, modern advances
in ammunition and bullet

construction have come a long way.

Absolutely.

And the whole idea.

Of the ballistics behind
these, uh, rounds.

This one's a, this one's a bear stopper.

This one isn't, this one's a that, right?

Shot placement is obviously important.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

Travis Bader: But we'll talk
about that a little bit more in

the other one about calibers and
energy and, and the rest, but, um.

Rachel Athila: Well, and to me, to
be honest, one of the big things that

I brought home is that, you know, if
I'm only allowed to carry one caliber.

Where I'm out here working remotely
on a snow machine, and I've got

my traps and I have my bucket
of my lures and everything else.

If I have an intended catch and
it's an animal of, you know,

predatory, there could be wolves,
there could be anything moving in.

So not only am I putting myself in
danger by checking my intended catch,

whether it's the great catch or it's
something else, heaven forbid, I don't

want to be in there with a 22 caliber.

Travis Bader: No, absolutely not.

No.

And you are, you're the prime
candidate for wolf food or bear food.

You're covered in scent.

Oh, you've got catch with you.

Rachel Athila: You want to
see me walk on snowshoes?

It is not a fast or a
pretty thing, neither.

I would be, I'm wolf bait, man.

Travis Bader: A hundred percent.

Um, Holsters, holsters must be designed
to be worn on a belt around the waist.

So they're saying no shoulder
holsters, cross drawn, um, actually it

doesn't say nothing about cross draw.

Rachel Athila: When you talk to them,
they say no cross draws, even though

some of the CFOs I've talked to,
it is a proficient way of carrying.

Um, their biggest thing is that when
you go to draw, there's an opportunity

where you, your barrel control.

Right.

When you're out there with all your

Travis Bader: other
friends trapping, right?

Rachel Athila: Yeah, exactly.

All my other friends.

Travis Bader: So, um, Yeah, the,
you in the crowded areas with the,

a lot of the thinking behind this
falls back on police training.

Yes.

And police training doesn't apply
here, but it's a framework that

was put in place a long time ago.

And the firearms officers may be either
ex police, current police, or exposed to

police, and there's a proclivity towards
wanting to, uh, be drawn to what you know.

We do what we've done in the past.

So it takes a little bit to move
that mindset to something else,

but it's not an immovable mountain.

Rachel Athila: The other thing too,
is when they talk about a holster is

it has to have a level of retention.

Travis Bader: Right.

So we're going to just go a little
further and say outside of the

clothing and have at least one strap
with a snap closure that retains

a firearm securely in the holster.

You don't want a bucket holster.

You don't want something that plops in
and then you're on your snowmobile and

you need to use your firearm and you
look back and where is the thing, right?

They, they need some level of retention.

Rachel Athila: It actually doesn't say
snap retention when you look online.

Travis Bader: Right.

Rachel Athila: So that's one thing, cause
I, in, in my holster quest, and this is,

you know, side note for everyone that's
interested, you have to make sure one

that, not all holsters are the same.

That's one thing I've learned.

It's a very new shopping experience.

Um, but your level of retention,
basically what they're looking for is

it has to, the rifle or the firearm
itself can't easily slide in and out.

You have to forcibly pull and it
has to make sure that the trigger

guard Is in fact fully encompassing.

Travis Bader: So it says the
holster must be designed to

completely cover the trigger.

A holster and holster retention
device should be used during

the proof of proficiency.

Oh, there it is.

Shoulder and cross draw
holsters are not permitted.

Well, again, this is a policy.

This is a piece of paperwork.

So.

Uh, there are going to be instances
where maybe you want that.

For me personally, I don't want a pancake
holster, meaning one that flattens out.

I want one that's going to hold its shape.

Kydex does a good job at doing that so
that I can get it back into the holster.

I mean, um, um, police definitely
want to have something like that so

they can get it back in quickly the
second the gun's no longer needed.

In a, uh, wilderness environment, you
can have all the time in the world,

but with bulky clothing and cold.

Rachel Athila: You cold, wet,
heat, anything like that.

You have to think of a wet
leather, you know, you're trying

to ramrod a firearm in and out.

I've had scabbards that freeze
up on me with my long rifles.

Right.

So that's something to be very
cognizant of, you know, when

choosing the appropriate holster.

Travis Bader: So, and then some form of
retention, something to hold it in place.

Um, What I tend to go for, um, is
something, I'm not a big fan of

the, uh, the thigh holsters, the,
uh, the drop leg holsters, right?

I just find hiking around, running, the
thing just starts working its way around.

Really, the only reason you want
that is so you can get a backpack

on or a repel harness or something
that will go where your belt line is.

So what I do.

do is just find something that'll drop it
an inch, inch and a half down below the

belt line and hold it on my, on my belt.

That way I can still get my pack on
and everything else holds it secure.

I find that to be the best.

Um, interesting when they talk
about, uh, to, to, to, to, to.

We're talking about holsters, did
we talk about concealment yet?

Rachel Athila: Uh, we just touched on it.

So that's the biggest thing is that
you have to make sure that that

firearm is exposed the entire time.

So that's, when you think about
big puffy winter jackets and snow

pants, I mean, you almost have to
have another belt loop outside.

Travis Bader: Well,
that's an interesting one.

So a law firm called me in to opine
on an issue where an individual

had a trap line and he was charged
with having a concealed firearm.

So I guess somebody saw him
out there with his handgun.

Uh, they called the police, called the CO,
CO's called the police, please come up.

The guy's like, well, you got a gun?

He's like, oh yeah,
it's right here, right?

And he's, he's motioning and
they looking through his vehicle.

They can't find it.

And I don't see it.

What are you talking about?

No, no here.

Like, I don't want to grab for
it, but it was on his hip and

he had a jacket over top of it.

Couldn't be seen.

And I said, well, what,
what's concealment?

Like there's the actual act of
concealing something, right?

Where you can't see it, but
he's in charge of concealment.

Did he intend to have it concealed?

Like it was really
light freezing rain out.

He had a revolver, you got freezing rain,
even, I mean, I'm certified with Smith and

Wesson since my teenage years to work on
their, uh, firearms and their revolvers.

Yeah.

They're robust, they work well,
they're designed to work well, but

I know areas where if you get a pine
needle in it, they won't work right.

Just a little bit.

So, uh, maybe having that covered up as
a smart idea, if he wants a gun to work.

Anyways, it came down and there's
a whole bunch of case law on it.

And I got some of it on my, my phone
here, but FALACA was one of the ones

that comes to mind, uh, intent has to
play a role in concealment if you're

intending to conceal it, because I was
saying, well, you know, If you stand

up behind a tree, it's concealed.

Did he intend to conceal this firearm?

Right.

If his jacket falls over top of a clump
of snow falls on, whatever it might be.

If he's carrying some, all of his
trap game over his shoulder, right?

Does he have a concealed firearm?

If I

Rachel Athila: have it when I'm carrying
my Martin boxes, am I concealing?

These are all things you
have to be cognizant of.

Obviously, I mean, unless you're going
to run into CO on the trail, it's

like the first thing you do anyways,
just say, Hey, this is who I am.

I just need you to know, I'm I have my
ATC, it has, it's holstered on my hip.

I look like a gorilla,
like, you know what I mean?

So, but then again, it comes back to
that communication, like you said.

So when it comes to
holstering, I mean, obviously.

If you run into someone, God forbid,
I think he did the right thing, in

my opinion, let them know it's here,
it's, I have no intention, but my

jacket might've fallen down and if I,
they mistake me for trying to lift it

up over my hip, then the next thing
you know, they're going to draw.

Travis Bader: That's right.

They don't want to see that.

Yeah.

Falaka was an interesting one.

I think he got on a SkyTrain and a
bus, so he had a 22 all wrapped up and,

uh, came coming back from the range
and someone was like, Oh, that's cool.

What do you got there?

He's like, Oh, I'm going to go
on a shooting spree, he says.

And the judge says, well, that was
a pretty immature statement to make.

He's like, uh, but that and about eight
other, I think, case law come in and

they say there needs to be an intent in
order for concealment to be a charge.

Uh, and there are times you're going
to want to have that firearm protected.

I mean, case in point that the
ones that you just mentioned.

Um, Anything else you
want to say on holsters?

Rachel Athila: No, I think just the
biggest thing is just, you know, it's one

of those things that you're going to do
your best in the field and actively I'm

always checking my holster, you know?

And I think that's one thing like, cause
it will come up in conversation when you

go through this process, what happens
if, you know, your jacket falls down?

Well, I'm going to immediately
try and, you know, make sure that

I'm wearing the right clothing.

I'm also going to try not to free stuff
on the trapline, but you know, it's,

it's trying to communicate all of these
steps that we're talking about because.

While we're having this conversation
going through this application process,

if anyone can have a takeaway, it's
just, it's a real human conversation.

Travis Bader: You

Rachel Athila: are doing
the best of your intentions.

You are trying to make
your weapon present.

You're having the right holster
that fits your body type.

It fits your activity, branches
happen, carrying things happen.

Just learn how to communicate, I
think is my biggest thing as we

move through this application.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Uh, it's, there, there's a
dichotomy between communicating.

With a rational, normal
individual in a rational way.

Yes.

And there's severe protectionism, right?

Which can find you on the wrong
side of, uh, an interaction because

you're doing everything right.

And you're being so protective
and you just come across as like,

what's this person's problem.

Right.

And then the other side says you're
having a normal conversation.

Like you would with any normal
individual to find out you're not

talking to a normal individual, that
individual just wants to sewer you.

So there, there is that difficult
dichotomy that people have to go through.

So that's where this
normalization process helps.

Um, it's talks about targets.

This is steel targets are not permitted.

Okay.

Fair enough.

Um, that's what this document says.

Assessment.

The applicant must fire six
rounds from each distance, i.

e.

three meters and five meters.

Rachel Athila: Yep.

Travis Bader: You're close.

You're dispatching an animal.

They just want to read your head.

You do

Rachel Athila: have to have it within
a certain, um, diameter as well.

Um, so that is something
to, to really think.

So the radius.

And the special notes, just to follow
up on that, um, the radius draw on

the paper target has to be two inches.

So they are looking for competency and
that's why obviously you can't have a

metal target because when you're standing
three meters away, bullet fragments.

I mean, obviously on the range,
hopefully you're wearing your proper

PPE, you're wearing your eyeglasses,
you know, so is a range officer.

Um, if you're downrange, you're wearing
a vest, you know, you've got your flag.

I know that's one for our range here, but.

The biggest thing is obviously
communicating this with the person

you're testing with, if they've
never tested before, or perhaps,

you know, just showing your level
of competence and understanding.

Travis Bader: And having,
uh, steel targets, like, like

you say, at that distance.

Fragmentation, ricochets, hopefully not
ricochets, hopefully you're using a hard

enough steel and all the rest, but all of
that comes, they do have guidelines that

the firearms program has made for that.

Easy to, uh, fall on.

Tintina gun range, they were in the Yukon.

I was called in by another law firm to
opine on that one with a steel target,

a ricochet that happened on that one.

And somebody got hit with the ricochet
damage on the face and everyone

becomes litigious, but that was,
that was a Uh, a little bit, little

different story, but talking about
steel, um, scoring, um, here it is.

Administrator must indicate the number
of hits for each shooting distance.

A hit is awarded when a round lands on
the designated scoring area of the target.

The designated scoring area, like Rachel
said, is defined as being a circle with a

radius of two inches or five centimeters.

So they want to make sure if
we're dispatching some little

animal, you can actually do it.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

Travis Bader: Uh, The applicant must
achieve 10 hits for every 12 rounds fired.

So that's about an 83 percent
success rate that they're

looking for from the applicant.

Now, you know, back in the
day, they didn't have this.

They didn't have this proficiency.

They had, Oh, you got to use pie plates.

Or they had, they had all these
different ideas and little by little,

they're kind of honing it down and
getting it finer, but it's still.

Policy.

Rachel Athila: And let me tell you, if you
haven't shot in a while, you get rusty.

And I think this is something
that a lot of people are like,

oh yeah, you go and shoot.

It's like, no.

Travis Bader: No, it's a perishable skill.

Exactly.

It is

Rachel Athila: a perishable skill.

And a lot of it too, comes down to your
range behaviors and mannerisms, which

I'm sure we're about to dive into here.

Tell me.

Cause it's not so much just shooting,
you know, you are under a timed amount,

um, which I believe it is 20 seconds.

Travis Bader: For this one?

Uh, did they give you a
time to mount on this one?

Rachel Athila: I believe so.

Travis Bader: Uh, doesn't
have it in their paperwork.

Okay.

Rachel Athila: Um, I believe I'd seen
something, I don't want to misquote

myself, but it was, you know, when
you, when you approach the target,

um, obviously you're holstered.

And that was one thing it's like
hands in the air from a casual

position, unholstered, showing
that you have good trigger control

or good, sorry, pistol control.

And obviously you're proving proficient.

Once you're done, you're,
you're Holster again.

So between each set, it's very
important that you show that you have

barrel control, that you have, you
know, good holster technique and good

present presentation technique as well.

So.

Travis Bader: Muscle control,
trigger, finger discipline.

That's the thing that the
instructors will keep saying.

You don't have your finger on the
trigger until your barrel and your

gun is pointed at the target, right?

Doesn't mean like I don't have my finger
on the trigger until I'm ready here.

I can shoot.

Right.

Cause you can shoot at
any point all the way up.

Rachel Athila: Yes.

Travis Bader: Depending on the
individual, but it's got to be.

Exactly,

Rachel Athila: exactly.

Travis Bader: Um.

Rachel Athila: You do
get three attempts at it.

Travis Bader: Yeah, which is crazy.

Isn't it?

Rachel Athila: It is pretty crazy.

It's very expensive on ammunition.

Travis Bader: But here's, so
here's an interesting one.

They don't cover it in here.

Uh, so you said 20 seconds, which by
the way, it is, uh, a lot of time.

I maybe like, this is the form.

I think this is the newest one.

Cause this is the one that they, that
they Uh, they provided you, I've seen

different iterations of this one.

Uh, if somebody has an older iteration
that has different distances and

different timings or whatever it
might be, again, they just, it's one

of these, stick your finger in your
mouth, which way is the wind going?

Here's, here's where you go.

They need somebody to
say you are proficient.

So if you do something silly with a
firearm, they come back and say, well,

that's somebody said, it wasn't me.

It was that somebody.

Right.

Right.

Um, I think that's the, the crux of this.

Um, some people talk about,
well, can you practice?

Can you have a, uh, do you have
to shoot it cold or can you shoot

it, can you warm up ahead of time?

It doesn't say anything about whether
you shoot a cold or not and they're

really, there's only one cold round
and that's the first one you shoot.

And after that, you're
dialing everything in.

Rachel Athila: And

Travis Bader: if you get three
kicks in the can, maybe that's two

practice rounds in one test, right?

Rachel Athila: Yes, exactly.

And I think that's one thing is that at
the end of the day, they're basically

trying to, You're just trying to prove
that you have good manners, safe manners,

when it comes to handling a firearm,
obviously, especially with a pistol,

um, and the biggest thing I found too
is that when I did my test and, and

this is something that I learned from
the SIG Academy is always communicate,

you know, when I'm shooting with
someone, it's like, okay, you know what?

I'm going to holster.

Um, when I'm holstered guys, I'm going to
let you know what I'm going to go live.

Um, yeah.

Just that way I'm being cognizant of the
people that I'm sharing the range with.

Yeah.

Right.

And I think that's a good
practice to really install.

Travis Bader: I agree.

I like that.

It says, um, if the applicant fails
to achieve the minimum pass mark,

the applicant must be retested
for the failed shooting distance.

So that doesn't say you've got to
redo the entire course of fire.

You just redo that one
part that they failed on.

Absolutely.

An applicant can only attempt a maximum
of two retests for each shooting distance.

If an applicant fails to achieve the
minimum pass mark after three attempts

for either distance, the applicant
can not attempt to do the proof of

proficiency assessment until after
a minimum of 30 days have passed.

Again, this is all policy.

If you're like, man, I need it tomorrow.

I need it whenever exceptions can be made.

Um, Preferably, you're going to
the range, you're practicing,

you're getting proper training.

Right?

This isn't for every Joe Blow to come out
and say, Hey, I want to, I want to carry.

This is for people who need it.

And the people who need it will
put the effort in and work.

Um, The administrator must submit
all POP assessment results, pass

or fail to the chief firearms
officer of their jurisdiction.

So when you go in, they get recorded.

And this one that says it can be mailed or
faxed to, and that's in Green Timbers Way

in, uh, in Surrey, the firearms office.

I like to call it the new one, but
they've been there for like 15 years or

so now, but, um, and, I turned the page
on here and then it's got the, uh, the

application form where the applicant
information, their surname, given

name, their PAL number gets in here.

They put their firearm certificate
and their FIN, their firearm

identification number, the make model
caliber type of ammunition used.

You should be using similar ammunition
to what you're using out in the field.

Absolutely.

Uh, used to be, people would say,
firearms officers would say, you have

to use the exact same ammunition that
you're going to be using in the field.

And in theory, that makes sense.

But in theory, communism
also works, right?

Um, the reality is I don't know
of any police agency that will

go out and, uh, qualify on the
same ammunition that they carry.

They'll use frangible ammunition and a
non toxic ammo on if it's VPD, that's

what they're qualifying with, right?

They'll use full metal jackets.

They're not using the more
expensive hollow points, they're

not using the hotter rounds.

So being able to use a similar
ammunition, and I think they've gone

and changed it now, but you still
might find firearms officers say

it's got to be the exact same ammo.

It doesn't have to be the exact same ammo.

It's should be similar, should be the
same type of firearm, type of firearm.

Um, And it goes to, uh, it's this type
of ammunition used and then a little pass

fail, they prepared the firearm safely.

That's what you're saying earlier, right?

Talking your way through,
I'm getting myself safe.

If I got the muzzle swinging
everywhere, that's a fail, right?

Rachel Athila: You want to show
up to the range with it, obviously

locked in an opaque case and you
want to have your trigger lock.

And I think it's really good
husbandry, especially if you're

testing with someone you don't know.

Travis Bader: You know,

Rachel Athila: like, or anyone,
it just, to me, it gives them a

safeguard of, look, I'm showing up.

It's like showing up to a test with a
chiseled pen and a good piece of paper.

You're ready for the test.

You've studied.

Travis Bader: Uh, firearm holstered
safely and prepared for pop, pass or fail.

Holstering and unholstering
a firearm is an art form.

It takes some practice.

There's some skill to it.

There's YouTube videos, or even like
yourself, Seiko professional instruction.

Drawing.

From the holster and firing smoothly.

There's that skill.

Ask about the target type, whether
it's silhouette, bullseye or

other, they can put their other in.

And then it gives you for a second
and third attempts from three meters

and five meters, uh, pass or fail.

Um, does it all over again for a
secondary, uh, firearm for number two.

Um, And then it asks for the
administrator information, their first

name, last name, where they could
be contacted up, their phone numbers

or pal, um, where the location was
that they did the, uh, the course.

And there's an area for any
additional comments if necessary.

Rachel Athila: Yep.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Obviously it's an offense under
section 106 of the firearms act to

knowingly make false or misleading
statements, either orally or in writing.

So you put a date and sign that, and
then the CFO will take a look and

they'll say pass or fail on there.

Rachel Athila: Yep, absolutely.

Travis Bader: Anything I missed on there?

Rachel Athila: No, and to be honest, like
when you go through, um, the authorization

questionnaire, Really use common sense.

I mean, obviously, we just covered,
you know, the shooting positions.

You're doing it from a standing as well.

Um, for the trapping, it's all standing.

Um, but when they're looking at the
answers that you're going to provide,

one of the things that I really learned
was, You want to give detail that gives

a reassurance to someone, because you
don't know who the civil servant is, who's

going to be taking on your paperwork.

So there's a way of answering your
questions that cover your basis,

but you also are not limiting.

I mean, I'm a trapper up in
Northern British Columbia.

And one of the questions was,
where will you be trapping?

And, and that's something that I think
when I bounced ideas off of you, he

said, well, you might, he questioned
me and Travis said, are you going to

trap there for the rest of your life?

You know, you could go trapping down
in Southern BC if you get permission.

So learning how to frame the answers of,
I will be trapping in accordance with the

law in the province of British Columbia.

This is what I have now, but you're
also leaving it open for opportunity.

Travis Bader: This is probably
one of the areas where you and

I, and most people, we spend the
most amount of time going through

because there's a delicate balance.

And part of that is knowing the
individual that you're dealing with.

What they're looking for, what their
objectives are, where they're coming from.

Cause I've had a firearms officer
come up and say, look at, I'm just,

you know, if there's any reason
that you come up with, that you say

that would preclude you from owning
this, we'll jump on that right away.

So you have to be very careful.

This isn't an fair and frank sort of
disclosure of information process.

This isn't an open, um, uh, dialogue.

it's framed in such a way where
you're already going to be on your

back foot saying, well, if I say this
wrong, you're just going to get it.

And so that, this is where I find most
people have the, um, the trepidation.

And this is consequently where most
people will have themselves denied.

Rachel Athila: Yes, absolutely.

And in a lot of the people
that have reached out and said,

you know, I've done the test.

I shot very well.

I have good trigger control.

I had good holstering control, you know,
I don't understand why I was denied.

And I think a lot of it, like you
said, comes down to the questions

and how they answered them.

Travis Bader: Right.

Rachel Athila: You know, and it's up
to the discretion of that civil servant

to have a followup conversation.

Travis Bader: I would advise
people to give, to answer just the

question and don't expand on it.

If they want expansion on that question,
you can always expand afterwards.

But answer that question as clearly
and concisely as possible, knowing

full well that maybe you just got
somebody who's having a bad day.

Maybe you got somebody who's
saying, oh, I'm going to look for

reasons not to issue this one.

In which case, the more information
you provide, The more reasons the

issuing body will have to deny it.

So don't lie, obviously, number one,
but it doesn't mean you have to go on

and tell a whole life story as you go
through as well, answer it as quickly

and easily, concisely as possible.

And a follow up, uh,
conversation might happen.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

Travis Bader: In my case, I remember
on one of them going through, uh,

Um, and I was getting a wilderness
carry for free mining and I do that

all throughout British Columbia.

And the firearms officer came
running out one time when I

was picking up stuff for work.

And he's like, Oh, I just wanted to talk
to you about a couple of things and just

casually throwing a few questions out.

And I realized really quickly that I was
being interviewed informally for this,

as opposed to through the formal process
that I should have been, and I talked to

the guy and I said, hold on a second, are
you trying to find reasons to not issue?

He's like, Oh, well, you know, I'm not.

It's not that I'm trying to find
a way, we just don't want to

issue to anybody and everybody.

And it was his words.

We don't want everybody
running around with handguns on

their hip thinking it's cool.

I said, this is a lifesaving thing.

This is to do with life.

Like that should be your only concern.

Do they make the requirement?

Yes or no.

If so go, but I get it.

And he says, well, you know, we had a
lot of people who just apply and they

don't really meet the requirements.

Again.

That shouldn't take trickery.

That shouldn't take running out to
have, what are you carrying right now?

Like when you go out, what do you use?

I physically can't take
anything right now.

Right.

I need the handgun.

My hands are loaded with everything else.

It's not like I'm going to have
a rifle or shotgun with me.

There's like, you know, going out
there and trapping, Holy crow, you're,

you're like, I don't understand how
anybody could have a rifle or a shotgun

and still carry all of this equipment
with all this stuff bundled up.

So questions, uh, please provide your
valid trapping license number for

a management license or equivalent.

So that's an easy question to answer.

Please provide your valid trap line
number or registered for a management

area number or equivalent and
corresponding geographical areas.

So for that one, How did you answer it?

Rachel Athila: So I put down the
trap line that I was leasing.

Um, and the corresponding geographical
areas, I actually, I ended up having

a follow up conversation with,

Travis Bader: um,

Rachel Athila: because I had said,
you know, I'll be trapping in British

Columbia and that was too big.

But in a follow up conversation that
I had with a CFO, I said, this is the

registered trap line that I am leasing.

You know, I also have permission and
that's what trapping has is you have

the permission, written permission
from the areas so that you are actually

legally lawfully allowed to carry because
you're still in the act of trapping.

That's that's one of the gray areas.

Is you have to say within British Columbia
where you have authorization to trap,

Travis Bader: right?

Rachel Athila: You have to put that.

Otherwise, if you just put down
trap line, such and such and such

in the special comment side of your
permit, it will say only authorized

to carry on such and such place.

Travis Bader: Right.

And this is all a process of.

Limiting yourself and why would you
limit yourself when your license allows

you to work throughout remote wilderness
areas, on private property, throughout

BC, on other traplines, assisting other
people, like your license allows for this.

Why would you limit yourself?

Anybody listening to say, well,
I've only got this one right now, so

that's the only area I can have it.

And, and that's what people should have
in the back of their head as they're

answering all of these questions.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

Travis Bader: Uh, explain why you feel you
need to use a handgun, a restricted rifle

to dispatch trapped animals rather than

Rachel Athila: any

Travis Bader: other tool available.

Rachel Athila: And the basic thing
is, is it comes down to it's a

lawful and it's an compact tool
and it's effective for dispatching.

A

Travis Bader: hundred percent.

It's effective.

Rachel Athila: Plus.

The big thing is it's compact.

Travis Bader: It's the
easiest one to carry.

Rachel Athila: Exactly.

It's on your holster.

It's on your hip.

Travis Bader: Right.

And if you have bycatch
that you weren't expecting.

Just because you're catching one thing
doesn't necessarily necessarily mean

that's the thing you're going to get.

Rachel Athila: Well, and most time when
you're walking in on a set, I mean,

you're carrying tools, hoping that
you caught your intended catch because

they're not right off the snow machine.

So, I mean, you're going in and
your hands are already encumbered.

Travis Bader: Um,

Rachel Athila: you know, or
you're having to crawl into a

place to set, to, to check a set.

So, you know, the biggest thing is that
you, it is on your person without having

to physically hold it in your hands.

Travis Bader: Right.

Uh, please provide the dates you plan to
be harvesting the trap lines listed above.

You said.

Rachel Athila: I honestly said I
will be harvesting in accordance

with the law, um, and seasons
within the trapping seasons, um, and

subject to based on the regulations.

Um, and the options for trapping
outside the season for nuisance animals.

Yes.

So the act of trapping
is a year round activity.

As a licensed trapper,
I can be contracted.

Travis Bader: And I think
mine was a little more vague.

I think I said, uh, The
dates every day, right?

And I just let, so better answer.

Yes, but I, uh, when systemizing
things a long time ago, I

took things real, real small.

Uh, and then that requires followup
conversations and we'll talk about

what that would look like afterwards.

But, uh, Why would I find myself
illegal if I say, Oh, I'm going to

be working Monday through Friday.

So all of a sudden I got to check
a trapline on a Saturday, but I'm

in contravention of the law now.

Why would I do that to myself?

Uh, Well, and you're

Rachel Athila: setting
yourself up for failure, right?

You're already going
through such a process.

You need to set yourself
up for legal success.

That's what it is.

Travis Bader: Explain how you would
safely and securely transport your

firearm to the location on your trapline.

I think you've made it sound
nicer than what I said.

Rachel Athila: You go ahead
with your answer, Travis.

Travis Bader: Mine was in
accordance with the laws.

Rachel Athila: So I did it in
accordance with the law with restricted

firearm on my followup interview.

They want to know, and this,
and they did come through.

They said, you know, there are a bunch
of questions that we have to go through.

I, you say, you know, in
accordance with the law, I need

to know that you understand it.

So the CFO I worked with, he
just basically said, please

explain to me what that is.

And so when you're going to and from,
you have to have it in a locked opaque

case, but you also have to have the
trigger guard locked and you know, your

ammunition stored in a separate spot.

Um, and the biggest thing too
is, you know, You know, people

are traveling great distances.

So, with your ATC, you know, you can
travel, it, it grants you permission

to travel to and from your trapline.

Obviously, I'm in a special
scenario because my trapline

is not far from my house.

So, you know, I, I still have all my
paperwork that I travel with, but I

keep it in my opaque case, so that
it's there, it's handy, and I have

everything going to and from, whether
it's a 10 minute drive or a 2 hour drive.

Travis Bader: And essentially you
just said, in accordance with the

laws, but you articulated that
you know what those laws are.

Rachel Athila: Exactly.

And they will ask you that.

So you cannot, you can say in accordance
with the law, but you better know the

answer when you do a follow up phone call.

A hundred percent.

Travis Bader: And I think anyone
with a firearm should know that one.

They, they should, but I tell you,

Rachel Athila: you know, what was
funny is that that's where they

say a lot of people fail is when
they do the follow up phone call.

If people do a small answer, they're
But then they can't come back and

actually articulate what the law is,
obviously it's an automatic fail.

Travis Bader: But my
question would be why?

Why would that make it an automatic fail?

Rachel Athila: If people don't
understand where the law is and they're

applying for a transportation, I can
see from an officer's standpoint, if

you say, if I say, Travis, you know,
do you know what it means to travel?

And you say, yep.

And it's like, okay, well then what is it?

And you balk and go, well, locked, of
course, you know, as from the, you know,

when you look at the devil's advocate,
it's like, okay, so is this person going

to travel with an unlocked firearm to and
from the range and put my job at risk?

So from their standpoint, you know, I
think it is good to put vague, lawful

answers, but by God, you better be ready
to answer them with a good articulate.

Travis Bader: And see, but you're
attacking, you're looking that from a

very logical point of The way that I
look at it is, okay, as a regulatory

body, if the person doesn't know how
to transport it, why don't we just put

that, you know, on their conditions,
making sure that we know, let's

have a conversation, you Perfect.

How do you do it?

Oh, I'll, I'll, I'll just
have it, um, unloaded.

No, no, you need to have
it in an opaque locked box.

Box cannot be easily broken into.

It's got to be separate
from the ammunition.

It's going to have to have a secure
locking device on that firearm.

Do you understand that?

Yes.

If you don't transport it like
that, there's issues, right?

Yeah.

And, uh, as opposed to,
Oh, you got that one wrong.

You're gone.

I think that's where a lot of people's
trepidation comes in because they feel.

And sometimes it's like
this, I'll be honest.

Sometimes there is a
gotcha game process to it.

Not always, sometimes he gets switched
on firearms offices and they're like,

We want to make sure you're safe.

We want to make sure you're good.

Right.

Sometimes you get people who
don't quite understand, and

maybe they're working under that.

Rachel Athila: You've

Travis Bader: got to deny everybody.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

Travis Bader: Um, same thing goes for
how would you safely carry the firearm

Rachel Athila: while you're

Travis Bader: working on your trapline?

Rachel Athila: Yeah.

You're wearing it on your safety.

Oh, you're wearing it, sorry, on
an approved holster that meets

the requirements with retention.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

And that's what my answer is.

Rachel Athila: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Um,

Rachel Athila: They will try and catch you
up and say, oh, so is that a cross draw?

It's like, no, it's on your hip.

So, you know, it depends
on who your interviewer is.

Travis Bader: There's nothing in the law
that says you can't use a cross draw and

you can have a cross draw on your hip too.

Rachel Athila: I think it just
said that in the part of the form.

Travis Bader: Form, not law.

Rachel Athila: Oh, there

Travis Bader: you go.

Right?

Not legislation, not regulation.

There you go.

But definitely did say it in the form.

Allegedly.

Allegedly.

Explain how you could safely and
securely store the handgun while

not carrying it on your trapline.

Rachel Athila: All right.

So I actually went with an answer that
I think covered all bases, which was my

handgun was stored within the outline
requirements as set out by the federal law

for restricted firearms here in Canada.

Travis Bader: Beautiful.

And did he say, Oh, what are those?

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

And then you

Travis Bader: explained.

Rachel Athila: And then
I explained to him.

So.

Travis Bader: Okay.

And then there's an offense if
you give any bad information.

So that, that is that one.

Rachel Athila: Yes.

Travis Bader: So there's that written
questionnaire and then there's the

followup kind of verbal questionnaire
that may or may not happen.

And it's my experience.

It always happens.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

Travis Bader: Uh, way years
ago, didn't now always happens.

And I remember a, um, firearms
officer, Travis, I want to, I want to

have a verbal conversation with you.

All right.

And when can you come in?

We've got to go through this.

I'm like, well, I'm trying so
hard to document everything.

Just give me your questions in an email.

I'll respond to it.

Then I've got this paper trail.

And I told him that I said, look at.

Each and every time I apply, it's
going to be like a new application.

Yeah, I get that.

But we've got a framework we can work
with and I'm working with other people.

If they meet that framework,
then, then good to go.

Right?

So, no, no, we got, we got to do
this verbally and okay, my back

of my hair stand up a little bit
when, when those are my responses.

And I said, okay, um, he says,
well, it's a dynamic thing.

You might say something and then I
have to say this and it might grow.

I have no idea what my questions could be.

So gotcha.

Okay.

No problem.

So finally I said, I got
you on the phone now.

What are your questions?

Oh, okay.

Well, I guess question number
one, he goes through and it's

like, okay, sounds perfect.

Just writing it down.

Just letting you know, I'm
writing down this question.

Um, let me think on that.

I'll get back to you.

I'll send you an email.

Yes.

Okay.

Uh, okay, what's question two?

And we did this for each and
every one of his questions.

I wrote them down word for word, and then
I responded and I put it in the email.

I said, I want to template this.

Like you can't make this.

Yeah.

I'm in a pain in the ass.

I get it.

Um, but it, it templated that process
and it's allowed a lot of other

people that who are eligible to, to
be able to go through this process

in a more streamlined fashion.

Rachel Athila: No, I think, no, and I
think that's one of the things that,

you know, at the end of the day, when
you're going through this process, I

mean, there's no smoke and mirrors,
you are either going to get approved

or you're not, and so much of it will
come down to obviously in preparedness.

So wrapping up this ATC for the, for
the trapping side, I mean, you've got

your 5491E or whatever the form was.

How would you submit that?

Would you submit that application first
as well, or would you submit a package?

Cause I think that's what people
are going to want to know.

Okay.

So I've done my studying.

I've gone to the range.

I either do or I don't have a pistol.

So the best advice for someone moving
forward is there's three different

applications that we have to send in.

One's the POP, proof of proficiency.

One is the questionnaire
and one is the 5491.

I'm going to misquote the number on it,
but that's, it'll be in the show notes.

Travis Bader: Yeah, 5491E.

Rachel Athila: 5491E.

So there's those three different
parts that you have to send in.

Would you, would you encourage
people to send them all in at once?

Travis Bader: I would.

Uh, issue is getting those questions.

Uh, the 5491E is available online.

You can grab that, download
it, put it through, but the

questionnaire sheet, usually what
happens is they do this first.

Rachel Athila: Yes.

Travis Bader: Then they get the whole
questionnaire sheet and everything else.

Rachel Athila: That's
how it happened for me.

Travis Bader: For everyone, because
they don't make this publicly available.

All those questions that we
just said, now you know them.

Right.

Yeah.

Uh, those distances you have to
shoot the requirements, uh, those

I think, and we can look for it.

I think, uh, some versions
of the, uh, the form had it.

This one doesn't.

I was looking now, the new one doesn't.

Rachel Athila: Yeah, and that
was the biggest thing is that

until I actually got the form.

I had done some research, so I had a
pretty rough idea of what distances

I had to shoot and what proficiency I
had to, you know, obviously maintain.

That was the hardest part is that
until you submit your 5491E, you

don't get your questionnaire.

Right.

And you don't get the distances.

So

Travis Bader: in

Rachel Athila: essence,
I didn't do it wrong.

I did, I did send him a 5491E.

I finally got a response back.

They said, Oh, you haven't
done your application.

It's like, where's the application?

I would love to attain this so that
way I can move forward on the process.

It just

Travis Bader: to be crystal clear, this
is the happy path because they know this.

Rachel Athila: Yeah.

Travis Bader: There are other proof
of proficiencies that you can do.

This isn't the only proof
of proficiency, right?

And there's a whole different, there's a
lot of different schools of thoughts on a

proof of proficiency and how that works.

Training at the speed
of life is a neat book.

If people want to learn about RBS
reality based training systems,

RBT, whatever that is, uh, some.

Talking about police training and
the argument in some states for a

one round qualification course and
knowing the, um, uh, being able to

articulate the laws and the know
how and all this is more important.

And like, there's, there's a lot of
different thoughts just because you can

shoot a qualification course doesn't mean
you're going to be good with your gun.

Yes.

Right.

And just cause you do poorly on a
qualification course doesn't mean

you'll do poorly with a firearm
in a situation you might need to.

It's a really nice tool for agencies
to be able to pass or deny, to show

that they've done their due diligence.

And so this is the happy path route.

It's not the only route.

Uh, it just depends on how much a
person wants to be obstinate and fight.

Rachel Athila: Yep, absolutely.

Travis Bader: Uh, protection of
life in remote wilderness areas.

So this is a one where I think more people

Rachel Athila: will

Travis Bader: be doing again, same
information about the administration.

It's someone who's got a PAL.

Four restricted firearms at the time
of the administration, who is a range

safety officer or a member of the
approved shooting range executive,

or is an instructor for a recognized
firearms course or discipline.

Like, what is that?

What's a recognized firearms
course or discipline, right?

By what country and what, I think
it's wide open, like you said

before, everyone's a range officer.

Yep.

Um, Firearm used during the POP must
be the same firearm the applicant

intends to use for wilderness carry,
same comments from before applicant

can only apply for a maximum of two,
uh, to be listed on their ATC and a

POP must be completed for each firearm.

And the last one there was the
minimum caliber accepted for

wilderness protection is 357 Magnum.

Again, that's what they
write on this policy form.

Uh, I've seen them issued for 40 cal.

I've seen them issued for nine millimeter.

Um, and.

When you're looking at this whole
thing, it's for the protection of

life and remote wilderness areas.

And you read through the act, let
me just pull up the exact word.

Cause I think it's an
important piece of the puzzle.

Um, because I was asked before, what
predatory animals do you expect to

see in your area when looking for
a, uh, uh, lower caliber than 357?

Cause everyone said, Oh, it has to be 357
or higher, says who, based on what, and

what's bullet penetration looking like,
and what kind of ammunition are we using?

And

The act says, uh, wild animals, protection
of the life of that individual or

other individuals from wild animals.

It doesn't say predatory
animals and wild animal.

I mean, there's a lot of
different things that you might

have to protect yourself from.

Rachel Athila: Oh, absolutely.

I don't know if anyone's ever come
between a cow and calf moose or

had them, you know, Have had a foul
catch and you know, you, obviously

you do your best to not catch them.

Travis Bader: Yes.

Rachel Athila: But accidents
happen and there's a reason

they chase off grizzly bears.

Let me tell you, you do not
want to get in a boxing match.

Travis Bader: No.

Uh, obviously the heavier rounds.

The faster the projectile goes,
the bigger the projectile is.

You start stacking things in your favor.

If you have a poor shot placement, right?

Things are going to The

Rachel Athila: inertia, the bullet inertia
and how it's actually impacting and Right.

There's a lot to it.

Travis Bader: So things will die if you
interrupt their central nervous system.

That's your incent off switch.

Or if you interrupt their
cardiovascular system, stopping

the oxygen going to the body.

Brain introducing hypovolemic
shock through massive

cardiopulmonary decompression.

Right.

And there's, there's two ways
that we do the first one, central

nervous system is going to be
brain spinal cord shot placement.

Right.

Number two could be lots of holes in it.

Right.

So.

Rachel Athila: Very platonic term.

Yes.

Lots of holes.

Travis Bader: Lots, lots of holes, right.

Causing it to bleed out more and more.

Hopefully those holes are in good places.

Lungs, heart, vital areas, all the rest.

But when we start looking at, uh,
the firearm being issued, it used

to be, you have to use a revolver
and it has to be 357 at least.

And I said, there's a case for
a handgun, a, uh, semi automatic

because more rounds means more holes.

Um, maybe you're in a high stress
situation and you're trying to

dump as many as you can quickly.

Um, there's a case to be made
for lighter recoiling because

shock placement is, is massive.

So this is not etched in concrete.

It's not etched in stone.

Rachel Athila: That's correct.

Travis Bader: But it's a happy path.

Ammo type of ammo used during the
pop has to have similar muzzle

velocity, caliber, and bullet weight
as the ammunition they intend to use.

Fair enough.

At least they're not saying
the same ammunition anymore.

Uh, holsters, all the same sort
of information covers a trigger,

uh, has a whole holster retention
device must be used during the pop.

What they mean by that is.

When you put the firearm back in the
holster, you apply the retention device.

You can't just leave it open.

I've seen so many people want to, Oh, I
can get it out faster if there's a time.

Or if they

Rachel Athila: just
have it sitting on top.

Yeah.

And yeah.

So you

Travis Bader: gotta, you
gotta actually use it.

Shoulder and cross draw holsters
are not permitted, it says.

Again, steel targets are not permitted.

Uh, the assessment now we're looking
at, uh, applicant must shoot in both

standing and kneeling positions for
each distance five, 10, and 15 meters.

And now we've got a timeframe on it.

Rachel Athila: Yes.

Travis Bader: For each firing
position at each distance, the

applicant must discharge six
rounds to the Unsupported within 20

seconds in one continuous motion.

Six rounds in 20 seconds
is a world of time.

So for people who are concerned
quite often, it's like,

what are they for five, six?

And then you're looking at the
watch as it's counting down, like

you count down 20 seconds, start
learning how to use that time and

make sure you're good sight picture.

Proper trigger press.

Rachel Athila: Nice squeeze.

Yeah, exactly.

Follow through.

World of a difference.

Absolutely.

Good grip.

You're not pulling, you're not flinching.

And we will say too, you're
not shooting at a steel target.

It does still give you like, whether
it's a silhouette or a bullseye

or other, but it does have to
be within a nine inch diameter.

Right.

So obviously because you're going
from those different standards of

your five, 10 and 15, obviously
you have a wider diameter.

But I mean, you're still, you're moving.

And I think that was one thing in the
test is that you go from standing to

kneeling, unholster, make your shot.

So there's a lot of communication.

There's a lot of moving parts on this set.

So I would definitely encourage
people, you know, when you're going

down range and you're shooting
this as a target, practice.

Articulate to the people that
you're working with because it

just makes you a better marksman.

It also makes you very cognizant because
for, for a safety mind, if I'm going

to test you and I don't know you, I'm
going to feel more comfortable going,

okay, this person's just said, all
right, we're going to go times on.

I'm going to go from my hands to holster,
but I'm going to be taking it out.

I like to have someone articulate to
me so I can anticipate, because it also

shows me that they have confidence.

And that was one thing that was passed
down to me when I did my test is that

my, the person who tested me said
they admired that I had confidence,

that I was able to articulate
because we are going to a live range.

Travis Bader: I like that.

And it also makes sure that if the
examiner doesn't see you doing something.

Yes.

Cause they're standing

Rachel Athila: on one side
and my holster's on the other.

Travis Bader: So did you, I heard that
sequence, you said, uh, going from

standing to kneeling, then unholstering.

So you unholster from a kneeling position.

Typically we'd tell people to unholster
from a standing position, just so

they're not, if they're depending on
what knee they're on, it's not pointing

at their leg as they go through.

Um, I may have heard
that wrong, but, um, the.

And then you, of course, 20 seconds
here, scoring, uh, the administrator must

indicate a total number of hits for each
of the shooting positions and distance a

hit is awarded when a round lands on the
designated scoring area of the target.

And like you said, the designated scoring
area is defined as being a circle with a

radius of nine inches or 23 centimeters.

And they used to actually say pie plate.

He's a pie plate, right?

Um, The applicant must achieve 15
hits for every 18 rounds fired.

So again, from each shooting
position, that's 83%.

If an applicant fails to achieve
the minimum pass mark, the applicant

must be rested, sorry, must be
retested for the failed shooting

position at all three distances.

So same thing again.

Uh.

Rachel Athila: And I think that
would be something, Travis, we just

talked about is, you know, when I
went down to a kneeling position, I

would I chose to keep mine holstered
because then I wasn't moving.

I, and maybe, maybe that's wrong.

There was no dissertation on whether you
had to unholster and then go kneeling.

Travis Bader: There is no right and wrong,
really, as long as you're doing it safely.

Rachel Athila: Yes.

Travis Bader: There is the common
school of thought, how everyone's

like, this is how I was taught, so
this is how it's got to be done.

Right.

So there will be people who listen to
this and say, Nope, Nope, that's wrong.

Cause it's not safe.

And that's, that's the only reason
I interjected that one part,

but realistically you should
be able to unholster, prone,

supine, kneeling, sitting, right.

Uh, and, and know how to do this.

It's not always going to
be a perfect situation.

Maybe you're knocked on your
arse and you got to get this

gun out and work from there.

Right.

Um, but for most people,
the, the, the They know.

Yeah.

Training, they know
things in a certain way.

Mm-Hmm.

, I don't know.

I, my A DHD mind thing seems to
paint outside the box of a lot.

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah.

Rachel Athila: And I think for
myself, because, um, my examiner

was standing on my left side, I'm
obviously, it was a right holster.

I think when I, I went down, I
had, I was doing it in the snow

after a blizzard, and I just said,
'cause it was slippery as well.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Rachel Athila: So I think that's where
I, I made the choice where it's like, I'm

gonna do my move action and then go f.

Unholstered because that way, in
my mind's eye, it was the safest

scenario because you can slip as
you go to kneeling in the snow.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Rachel Athila: So,

Travis Bader: um,

Rachel Athila: caution and diligence.

Travis Bader: Caution and diligence.

It says an applicant can only
attempt a maximum of two retests

for each shooting distance.

If an applicant fails to achieve the
minimum pass mark after three attempts.

For any distance, the applicant cannot
attempt to do the POP assessment for,

unless 30 days have passed again,
exceptions I've seen have been made.

The administrator must submit
all results, same as before.

Um,

You know, some people, and we
see it time and again, Oh, I want

to have my proof of proficiency.

They'll phone up our office.

Yeah, not a problem.

Right.

Um, so we're gonna have
to rent a range, right?

Uh, we're gonna have to make sure,
obviously as a company, we've

got insurance, uh, sending you
out with an instructor examiner.

They're at a high caliber at a high level.

They need.

Paid to be paid when they're out there.

This is work, right?

Our ranges aren't in our backyard.

So there's travel there and back,
and then there's processing.

Like it becomes costly endeavor, unless
somebody happens to have a friend who's

putting them through and there's no money
exchanged, then you don't have to worry

about, cause then you can still fall
underneath the, uh, the range's insurance.

The second people start doing
this as a bit of a business, it.

Yeah, it's costly to do it right.

So I would be wary of dealing with
individuals who are doing this as a

business, who are looking, who are
willing to cut corners and costs, they

either, A, do it at no charge as a part of
their club and what they do, uh, or have

some sort of a, something figured out.

I don't know if there's a, uh, you
donate to the range or whatever it is,

but you start looking for businesses
that offer this one, um, be prepared

to spend some money to get out there.

Um, I think, and then
it says shooting cold.

There's nothing in here that
talks about shooting cold.

Uh, but some people will make you do that.

Again, all the same information, make,
model, caliber, all the rest, uh, first

attempt, second attempt, third attempt,
five, 10 and 15 meters, pass or fail,

um, prepared firearm and magazine, speed
loader safely, pass or fail, firearm

holstered safely and prepare for the pop,
pass or fail, drawing for the holster

and firing smoothly, pass or fail.

And it gives the types
of targets that are used.

Okay.

Anything we should add on that?

Rachel Athila: No, I think the, and
the biggest thing is just practice.

Yeah.

You know, I think that's.

Were you pretty nervous?

Uh, I'm not going to lie.

Yes, I was because I wanted to do well.

I wanted to do well and it,
I, I'm not going to lie.

It was a blistering, colding day.

It had been a blizzard.

I had to cut spruce boughs to get up
this one part of our, literally with

my ax so that my truck could get in.

And then I was like, Oh my gosh, like this
is not setting me up for success here.

You know?

And.

I also, it was December.

I wanted to be on the trapline,

Travis Bader: like

Rachel Athila: I, I had a lot of
pressure, but at the same time, I'm

very fortunate enough that I've had
an opportunity to train with some very

highly decorated soldiers, ex military,
ex special agents, you know, through the

SIG Sauer and through the instructors
that they have there at the academy.

So I remember the process
and looking with both eyes.

And I just, when I got to the range.

It's almost like yoga minus the
lululemons where you just, you

have to just get into the zone.

And especially for someone that has
very little experience shooting pistols,

except for when I would go to the States.

And when I finally got mine and
I spent a lot of time with green

thumbs when I go to the States and
they jokingly bring extra powder,

but it's the Canadian way, you know.

But my biggest advice is if you're
going to be nervous, shoot, shoot as

much as you can, as often as you can.

Travis Bader: Yes.

And, you know, everyone talks about.

Shooting is 90 percent
mental, 10 percent physical.

And they'll say that for a lot of
sports and I find shooting, you got

that instantaneous feedback loop
where if I did something poorly,

I see it on the target right away.

Um, work on that 90%.

Dry fire.

Dry fire.

Visualize.

Yes.

Rachel Athila: Especially for Canada,
you know, dry fire ammo is expensive.

And that's one thing I've done a lot
of, um, simulations with, uh, my friends

at SIG when we do the guide training,
you know, you'll have a partner and

you'll get handed your, your firearm.

You present it, it
might have a live round.

It might not.

And you find your flinches,
you find everything.

Travis Bader: And

Rachel Athila: that's at home.

I mean, you can practice.

Yeah.

With your restricted firearm at home,
empty, make sure proof it's safe.

You can take your empty magazine
and you don't even have to put your

magazine and you can rack it and
you practice your trigger control.

And I, um, Trevor Thompson,
he's a friend of mine.

He gave me some really positive advice.

Practice how you shoot and
presentation is everything.

Make it muscle memory.

And that's one thing that as soon
as I started practicing, as much

as I was nervous and cold and we
were sitting out in the snow bank

on the day that I did my test.

I got into the zone
because it was familiar.

And as soon as you go to a
place of familiarity when you're

nervous, The world calms down.

And you shoot well.

Travis Bader: I love that advice.

And that ball and dummy is what they
call it, whether you have a live

round or a dud and, and, uh, you
can sure see if you're flinching.

Oh

Rachel Athila: man.

I'll tell you what, you want to see
a Canadian and I was like, you'll

see, pew, pew, and I was like.

A couple of my American
friends, they laugh, but.

Travis Bader: In the, uh, the drawing,
I mean, if you're getting ready

for your shift, there's nothing,
no reason, it's going over to the

loading port, going to load up.

No, nothing that says you can't
draw and holster 10 times in the

morning, unload at the end of the
day, draw and holster 10 times.

Man, that adds up.

You got to,

Rachel Athila: yeah,

Travis Bader: you get.

Rachel Athila: And the firearms
these days are so forgiving.

Cause I, I asked, I was like,
well, this wreck my firing pin.

Absolutely not.

And I, I asked, I was like, how
often do I have to clean my gun?

And some of the, like the gentlemen
that train have worked extensively.

They're like, they're forgiving.

I've drug it through hell.

Yeah.

Obviously, if it gets dirty, you
clean it, but that's one thing.

Do not be afraid to dry fire and do that
practice because that practice is perfect.

It's the way to do it.

Travis Bader: Perfect
practice makes perfect.

So questions, uh, what is your
profession or occupation as it

relates to this application?

Describe your work duties.

And so, you know, as a free miner,
I'm working in, uh, remote wilderness

areas as a free miner, and I just, you
know, leave it really wide and open.

Well, what'd you say?

Rachel Athila: Well, honestly, so.

I did it as a trapper for the wilderness
side of it, um, because that's what I

thought my prerogative was and I wanted
to just get my first application in.

So I said, you know, I
work in a remote setting.

Um, I will, I, I will be active and not
limited to carrying and transporting

game, large amounts of traps and related
supplies and tools, uh, to perform my

occupation as well as navigating changing
terrain and modes of transportation.

So that answer is, The meat
and potatoes of everything.

I'm not saying I'm just going to use
an SUV in the summer, I might be using

my horses to look for squirrel middens.

Cause I'm still trying to
learn my area, you know, you

don't want to limit yourself.

So that's why when you say all
forms of transportation, you

know, it's all encompassing.

Um, the, the crazy part is Travis
said, I want to touch on this as we

go through this application is when
you get your wilderness ATC, and

this is a question I actually had
for Travis coming up to this event

is when you have your wilderness ATC.

I'm obviously a registered trapper.

I work on a very remote cattle ranch
that has all sorts of things with

teeth and animals that, you know,
are prey and I work as a guide.

So can a person, does a person
answer all of those things?

Because under the special qualifications
on your actual license and permit, can you

be qualified for all of those different
jurisdictions or is it only for one?

Travis Bader: As long as you are.

Working in a remote wilderness area,
you can be qualified on that one.

So that, that leaves it there.

I've seen reluctance to issue
it for certain professions or

other professions, but that comes
down to what did the law say?

Occupation or profession.

Well, you are working on that law, lawful
possession, profession, or occupation.

Now, if you get issued for one and you're
like, now I want to carry it for the

other, That I would say would find you
offside, you get issued for one and you

say, I'm also working on these other
areas that keeps you on side, because

if it was issued for a certain lawful
occupation or profession, like for

example, I'm an armed guard and I want to
go outside now and, and in a wilderness

area, it doesn't correlate, translate
over, but you can be, Uh, certified in all

these different areas that you do work.

Rachel Athila: We'll
touch on that one later.

That was a big question from the
audience is I do X, Y, and Z.

These are all year round activities.

How can I go about doing that?

Travis Bader: You just put
it down with what your lawful

professional occupation is.

Rachel Athila: Yeah.

On your application.

What if you've done your application
and submitted it already?

Like myself.

You can

Travis Bader: have it updated.

You can have that
updated in like 24 hours.

All right, here we go.

So there, there might be, now
keep in mind, every application

is based as brand new, right?

When you go through a renewal.

So I would

Rachel Athila: have to do
the entire application.

Travis Bader: You'd fill it out
again with the new information.

This is where dealing with that idea
that each one has done brand new.

That's policy, right?

Okay.

This is where we're
dealing with people again.

So this is, look at here's, I'm working.

I want to make sure that
I'm on the right side.

Make sure I have it listed on my ATC.

Now I'm guiding, now I'm doing this.

Uh, what will it come back?

Um, well, you're guiding, do
you have a rifle with you?

If you have a rifle with you,
why don't you just use that?

Do I have a rifle with me all the time?

Right.

Would be the, um, I need it.

I need something that's going
to be with me at all times.

Yes, I've got a rifle, but there's
times it's going to be in the scabbard.

It's going to be on the horse.

And there's going to be times
I'm with, uh, somebody else.

Oh, does that somebody
else have a firearm?

What do you need the, uh, the handgun for?

Right.

So now I've got to depend on that
somebody else to protect my life.

I'm the one who's in charge
of their life, right?

This is my profession, right?

So I'm the one who's been paid
to take them and myself home

safely at the, at the end of it.

So these are some of the questions
that I can, I could anticipate based

on what I've heard in the past.

Um, Oh, you're going out right now.

What do you use?

Right.

That was, that was the
one that stuck with me.

I am physically not able to
carry anything else at the time.

Right.

Um, oh, you're carrying bear spray.

You doing other things?

Yes.

But I'd like to have the, uh, the handgun
because the efficacy of bear spray is, and

we can get into that whole thing as well.

Yeah.

Um, So yes, it can encompass more things.

No, I would not have it issued under
one thing and use it for something

else and expect for people to not.

Rachel Athila: Yes.

That's the biggest thing is
looking at your specifications.

And so as a person goes through these
questions, just for the people who had

questions about it in the audience,
that was a big one is if I'm permitted

for one, how do I one reapply?

Two, do I have to do another whole
questionnaire or three, can I

have it all encompassing If I'm
submitting this for the first time.

Travis Bader: So what I've
actually seen happen is.

Um, I am also doing this, I am following
all of the exact same protocol as before.

The only addition is this.

Can I have it updated?

And I've seen that.

Is that going to allegedly, is that
because, you know, the, The difficult

part is, is these people are nice people.

A lot of them are decent people and you
don't want to throw them under the bus

when they're doing you a favor, right?

You feel good cause, oh, those
really nice are looking out for me.

But were they doing me a favor?

Like really just do the job.

This is to protect my life
and this is something that I'm

properly qualified and trained for.

Just add it on.

But this relationship, this
whole Stockholm syndrome thing

kind of falls into place.

Um, and I, that's where I'm hoping
this podcast will help normalize it.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

And if anything, the amount of guides
that I know that have had interactions

with predators that have meant them
harm, you know, your guns leaning

against here while you're gutting
a moose, your pistol is on your hip

and there's been a lot of instances
and some, unfortunately, very fatal.

That, you know, have, have cost
people their lives or they've been

maimed to the point where they don't
partake in certain activities anymore

because of fear that's been installed.

And that's one thing is that I hope
that this would help be a skill set to

help them walk through an application
so that that way they're using

them in the most, in the best case
scenario, obviously, you minimize it.

But we just want everyone to
be safe in the best country.

Travis Bader: Yes.

Um, define the specific remote
geographical area where you wish

to carry a handgun while working.

And what did I put?

And I'm looking back as my form
was a little bit different.

They had a little bit different questions.

Um, Anyways, uh, yeah, throughout
BC on Crown land and remote

wilderness areas is what I put.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

And for trapping, you know, um, because I
did go after my wilderness to carry as a

trapping, you know, outside of dispatch,
um, I just said with landowner permission.

Travis Bader: Right.

Rachel Athila: So that's a big
one is that you have to have

that written down in there.

Yes.

So.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Um, what dates do you anticipate Being
required to work in that area every day.

Every day, the year

Rachel Athila: round occupation.

Travis Bader: Explain why you feel you
need to carry a handgun in relation

to your profession or your occupation,
as opposed to a more effective methods

of protection for predatory animals.

Example, spray, rifle, shotgun.

I like how they say spray is
more effective than a handgun.

Rifle and shotgun is more effective.

Well, What's going to be effective is the
thing that you have with you at the time.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

Travis Bader: That's
going to be effective.

Uh, and the handgun is
always going to be with you.

It's going to be worn with you.

Uh, I don't disagree that a rifle
or a shotgun with slugs, um, will

do greater penetration, more kinetic
energy can do greater damage.

But it's like you were saying,
it's, you don't have your rifle

in your hand while you're getting.

Rachel Athila: It's fast
reaction times as well.

I mean, by the time you actively
go pull, pull up your long rifle,

I mean, that takes seconds.

Sometimes the act of trying
to find and locate your rifle,

it's not on your person.

Practice makes perfect.

Travis Bader: And the idea that
spray is going to be more effective.

Rachel Athila: It has to be
effective at very close distances.

Travis Bader: Right.

And it also has to be, I haven't
seen bear spray being tested against,

uh, predatory aggressive animals.

These are just animals that are passively
activated, you have to say, walking

on through, you give it a squirt.

It's like, I don't like this.

I'm going to leave.

They're the same ones I would leave if
you smacked them in the butt with a broom.

Right?

Rachel Athila: Exactly.

When they're in full predator
mode and they're coming in,

they're engaged to do harm.

Travis Bader: Right.

Rachel Athila: A miscloud of prey.

Pepper is not going to do it.

No,

Travis Bader: that's where central
nervous system or lack of oxygen,

that, that comes into play.

So I, I don't discount pepper spray.

Pepper spray is a great tool.

Rachel Athila: In the right scenario.

Travis Bader: It's just another tool
that can be used, but it's not a panacea.

It's not the be all end all.

Rachel Athila: Yes.

But that's the thing too, is that
when you come back to it, is that

handguns are the most effective tool.

They are.

In a wide variety, there
is a method of protection.

Um, and the biggest thing is that
your hands are not encumbered

by having to carry your weapon.

Right.

When you're in a wilderness scenario,
whether you're free mining, whether

you're a forester, whether you're a
guide tying up a horse, caring for

your client, you know, you're a trapper
carrying in your sets, your hands

are always full and a back, a back,
um, sling for a rifle isn't, Isn't

conducive or quick acting as far as safe.

You'd have to drop everything,
try and sling your rifle around.

You can drop what you have in your
hands and your holster is right there.

Travis Bader: And it's not
always practical either.

Rachel Athila: No.

Travis Bader: You go through
brush and scrub and I mean, you've

got this rifle on your back.

That's dragging on everything.

Rachel Athila: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Okay.

And the

Rachel Athila: biggest thing too, that
I know when I talked to the CFO is that.

A lot of times you're putting
yourself in close call situations.

So, and that's even close as far as
proximity, you might not have the room

to swing a rifle around because if you
and I are standing there and our rifle's

between us, I mean, good practice is
I'm not going to swing the rifle in

front of you while I'm loading it to
protect us, you know, like in best case

scenario, like it's, you have a lot more
muzzle control with a smaller object

where I can spin my person around And
present the, you know, the firearm.

Travis Bader: But there's an, as
you're talking there, I'm reading

as well, uh, protect from predatory
animals, nowhere in the regulations

does it say predatory animals.

This is wild animals again, right?

So it's like, I get where people's heads
are and quite often people are like,

well, it's got to be good for a bear.

You need it for bear.

And that's the only thing that kind
of sits Uh, in a lot of people's

minds and the issuing body's mind,
but they're, you know, wolves.

Yeah.

Okay.

They're a predatory animal,
uh, calf cow, right?

Like you were saying, there's.

Or an

Rachel Athila: animal that's been
maimed by a predator and you ended

up, you end up walking into them.

I mean, they're in defense.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Rachel Athila: Um,

Travis Bader: so it's not
necessarily predatory animals

that you're carrying it for.

Rachel Athila: Yeah.

Travis Bader: The
regulations say wild animals.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Travis Bader: Um, while working in the
remote, while working in this remote

area, how many people will work in the
immediate area with you within sight or

within verbal communication distance?

So I, I say typically zero.

That's what I wrote.

What'd you write?

Rachel Athila: I've wrote typically
zero, you know, a lot of times you're

working alone or you're in one or
two small people groups and there's

a lot of communication that happens.

Um, again, you know, I said that
while you're working, I am in the

act of working, chainsaws, tools,
horses, equipment, supplies, my

hands are busy, and that's, again,
where it comes back to is that your

hands are busy and otherwise engaged.

You are not actively
carrying a defense mechanism.

Travis Bader: Right.

Rachel Athila: So.

Travis Bader: Are you registered
with British Columbia, WorkSafe

BC, or Yukon Workers Compensation
Health and Safety Board in the

aforementioned profession or occupation?

Identify how.

I said, nope.

Rachel Athila: Yes.

I, I honestly, um, those questions
there, I said not applicable.

Yeah.

That's what I put in, it's not applicable.

Cause the biggest thing is sometimes
you're working underneath a guide

outfitter, especially if you get
certified to carry under guide outfitter,

I mean, they've signed off on it
and they have their own insurance.

So you've made it aware that you
will be carrying, you are lawfully,

legally allowed to carry, um, so
your, your due diligence is letting

them know, and obviously they've
signed off on your, your work permit.

So,

Travis Bader: um, if yes, have you or
your employer met the obligation under

the regional workers compensation board
legislation by providing you the worker

with training and instruction on the
safe handling use of the firearms?

So if that's applicable to the
individual, we answer as it is

for me, it was not applicable as

Rachel Athila: well.

Travis Bader: Uh, explain the risk
assessment your employer has conducted in

relation to safe avoidance of hazardous
wildlife in the remote area in which you

will be required to work, attach copy.

So it's, that's different.

Explain the risk avoidance your
employer has in, has conducted.

Well, previously they said,
uh, that you had conducted.

Rachel Athila: So

Travis Bader: the

Rachel Athila: wording has changed a bit.

I know for myself, I said, because I
am self employed, you know, I actively

solicit, you know, local knowledge before
entering into an area, I'll talk to the

other stakeholders that are there, you
know, especially if there's other industry

practices, uh, for example, like where
the trapline is, they were logging.

I, I ran into logging trucks
and other people On the daily.

So, you know, um, keeping the
communication open and if there's

people like tree planters and
stuff like that during the summer,

obviously you make yourself
known, make yourself aware, right?

Um, and that's the biggest thing
too, especially if you have predatory

animals or you have a cow calf, for
example, you know, there's a part

of the, um, trapline I wanted to go
look at that's particularly swampy.

I wanted to see if there was
any aquatic animals in there.

There was also a cow and calf moose.

I am going to avoid that area
at all costs because I don't

want to have a confrontation.

But another one too, for trapping, and
even for guide outfitting, and depending

on what your jurisdiction is, don't be
afraid to introduce yourself to your

local CO, your conservation officer,
um, if there's a local detachment

that you know, uh, frequency area,
um, it's good to be on speaking terms

and, and first name with all of the
other industries and stakeholders.

A hundred

Travis Bader: percent.

Uh, I wrote down, I obtained recent intel
from locals and those working in the area.

This may include aerial views, uh, recce
reports, reconnaissance reports, stats,

and sightings and encounter reports.

So just, it's pretty broad and open,
but I mean, if I'm going to go out,

I'm going to do my due diligence.

Like you said, talk to people
who will be in the area.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

Let's get

Travis Bader: over here, next page.

Explain what information you have
obtained from British Columbia slash

Yukon conservation officers with
regards to predatory animals in remote

wilderness area in which you will work,
please provide the names and contact

information to all those who consulted.

So this is a newer one that they put in.

I was never asked this about
which conservation officers, like

you, I'm friends with a number of
conservation officers and they are

on the hotline go to that I'll talk
to you and I'll phone up, right.

And yeah.

And, and get information.

But, um, to me, when I read that,
that looks like third party denial.

Essentially, it looks like, well,
you were denied because I talked

to the conservation officer and
I asked them a bunch of questions

and they answered no to it.

Oh, did Rachel ask you ABCD, right?

Did Rachel go and blah, blah, blah.

Well, no, no, no, they didn't say that.

Right.

Whatever it might be.

To me, it just reads like a way to deny
a person's application that brings that,

that level of control away from both
the firearms officer and yourself and

gives a little bit of the arm's reach.

I could be a hundred percent off
base and being paranoid as I look

at that, but that's, that's how
it reads to me because, um, Cause

Rachel Athila: especially
when you're asked to provide

names and conduct information.

Right.

Why?

So you're soliciting someone else.

And to me, I didn't feel
comfortable doing that.

Travis Bader: Right.

Rachel Athila: So when I answered mine,
Travis, I said, you know, part of my

strategy will be to communicate with
local organizations and government

officials as I further familiarize myself
with the area, you know, and, and I'll

articulate what I'm finding and I will
also understand that it might be, you

know, within a timely manner as well.

You know, different parts of the season.

That way, I, I didn't feel comfortable
putting down people's names.

Travis Bader: No.

Rachel Athila: Because I don't know what
questions they're going to ask and they

don't know me and I don't know them.

Travis Bader: That's it.

So.

But you will be asking, I mean, I mean.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

Travis Bader: Do you do
due diligence and find out,

I mean, what, what info that you're
going to ask now is going to have

any consequence when you're out
there half a year later, right?

Absolutely.

Explain how you would safely carry your
handgun while working in this remote area.

I say in accordance with the laws
that got a call back for you.

I got

Rachel Athila: a call back for me.

It sure did.

And it goes down to the
same thing as trapping.

It has to be holstered on your
hip with a level of retention.

Yeah.

Travis Bader: And I think in a
more recent one, uh, put down, uh,

Um, in an approved police issue
belt slash, uh, thigh holster.

I took a path at that time, which
was if they're going to look at

approving or denying certain types
of holsters, why don't I just pick a

holster that's already been approved
for issue with police agencies.

It was good for them.

Surely it's good for somebody
working in a remote wilderness area.

So they've got retention straps.

It

Rachel Athila: has to
meet all the requirements.

That's it.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

I

Travis Bader: just so happen to
have a whole bunch of them kicking

around, so it made life easy.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

Travis Bader: Um,

it says, explain how you'd safely
store, safely and securely store

your handgun while working in
the remote wilderness area.

So same as your answer for the
other one, I should imagine.

Rachel Athila: Well, so this is store
your gun while working in the remote.

So that's the trick question on this one.

Is that obviously, you know, if you're
guiding, when you're traveling to and from

the field, you have to be in accordance
with your ATT, your transportation.

And that, I read, as it, at night, so
I go to the cabin, is this a grey area

where it's like, technically, I'm storing
my firearm, you know, my handgun, while

working in this remote area, so, you
know, with myself, I would probably

take my opaque case, right, and my two
locks, transport them in, so that that

way, I have my locking mechanisms.

If I have to lock them up, like,
to me, this was a question that

they could catch you up on if you
answered it with too much information.

Travis Bader: How did you answer?

Rachel Athila: I said, I would
store in accordance with the

federal and provincial legislations.

I did say that I would have my
transportation, my ATT regulation,

um, equipment with me so that if I had
to store it for any period of time, I

would be in accordance with the law.

I did say that on my phone call, but,
um, Technically, if you're working in

a remote trapline, You know, you're
opaque in your truck, in your console,

you know, that's outside, outside,
out of sight, out of mind if it locks.

So, and if you have to leave a restricted
firearm, you know, in a vehicle, you have

to have it locked, double locked as well.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

So it says it's got to
be locked to the trunk.

If a trunk is available, if no
trunk available, it's going to be.

Locked in the vehicle, out of sight
with the vehicle locked, right?

Exactly.

So you still have to have

Rachel Athila: multiple
mechanisms of locking.

Travis Bader: Right.

But he, you do raise a good point.

Like what, what storage, I mean,
like take it to the silly degree.

Well, I'm in a mobile home.

Is this transferred as a storage, right?

I live in a houseboat.

Is it transferred as a storage?

Um,

Rachel Athila: The biggest catch up
was while working in this remote area.

So for guides, foresters, and
everyone else, it's actually

staying in a cabin where as a guide,
you have meat hanging outside.

And you're

Travis Bader: still working.

You're still working.

Just cause you're sleeping doesn't mean
you can't get woken up in the night.

You're on call.

But that's where the due

Rachel Athila: diligence comes
in is obviously there has to be a

level of awareness of around camp.

It is up to you to make sure
that that firearm is in your

line of sight on your hip.

If it's not on your hip, I would take that
as a grey area that it needs to be stored.

So, that's where for people that are
asking that question, um, because it

did come up in a lot of the online
questions is, say I get approved for

it, do I have to take all this stuff
with me when I go to the mountains?

Travis Bader: Now, of
course, I'm on the spot.

We don't have cell coverage where we're
at, but, um, I know in non restricted

firearms, there is a section for,
uh, storage and they can be stored in

contravention of the safe storage laws,
if it's going to be used relatively

soon for predatory animals and the rest.

I'm trying to remember if there's
something, I don't think it's in there

for the restricted or prohibited.

Rachel Athila: I can see
the page online myself.

Yes.

So maybe we'll put that in the
field notes, but that comes down to

common sense, because if you live
in a remote area, I mean, obviously

you're not, you're not storing it
unsafely, especially if there's

children around or anything like that.

But if you have attractants in
camp, you're waiting to get a

plane out so that you got meat.

I mean, that's where it comes
down to a due diligence side.

Um, and when it comes to restricted
firearms, those are questions

that be prepared to answer.

Especially if you're going after your
wilderness ATC, um, and some supplementary

information when we get back to service,
we'll definitely provide it, but.

Travis Bader: Throw it in there.

And what's, what's contravention?

Contravention of the laws
could be a bunch of things.

What I've seen it typically
mean is just unloaded.

Yeah.

Um, typically like having it loaded
would be in contravention, but typically

what I've seen people come down to as
an understanding of a contravention

would be is the gun's unloaded, but
it's ready for, for, for use if needed.

Yeah.

Um, okay.

It says, uh, please include proof of
firearms and wilderness training that

you've completed the past five years.

Along with any other relevant training.

And so people can fill
that out, sign it, date it.

Rachel Athila: And you know what, in
that circumstance, the more the better.

If you've had wilderness, um, you
know, industrial predator awareness,

conflict management, you know, exactly.

If you've got first aid, if you've
done any, uh, pistol or, um, you Long

rifle training, private instruction.

You know, if you're, I, I'm a registered
guide, so I put my registered guides

license down, you know, any information
that shows that you are an industry

field executive or professional,

Travis Bader: put it

Rachel Athila: in there.

Travis Bader: Did you have questions?

Cause I know we put some
stuff up on the internet.

Did you have people asking you
questions that we haven't answered?

Rachel Athila: So the biggest thing
that as we kind of worked through

this is that people wanted to know.

Can I get a firearm if I didn't buy
one or I'm still on the waiting list?

Travis Bader: Yes.

Rachel Athila: That was
number one question out of the

three different rounds I did.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

So from anecdotally, oh,
sorry, allegedly all the rest.

Yes.

Rachel Athila: So how
can they go about that?

Travis Bader: That's a damn good question.

Um, so there still will be
businesses that have firearms.

Not all the businesses got
rid of all their firearms.

So those are still available.

Those still will be individuals
who have restricted, uh, have

handguns, cause it's not a restricted
firearm, uh, ban or freeze.

It's simply a handgun.

Um, I have seen people
importing from the States.

Businesses have imported from the States.

I have heard of individuals
doing that for work reasons.

I haven't seen that personally,
but I have heard that.

Um, but there are, there are still
provisions of protocol because they

can't deny you the ability to go
out there and protect your life.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

Travis Bader: Um,

Rachel Athila: We're remaining hopeful,
ever hopeful, but I think that was,

some of the other questions came down
to, are there training opportunities

for first time, you know, for people
that might own a handgun, you know, uh,

Silvercore, I know has a lot of great
opportunities for learning, whether that's

classroom online, is there somewhere
that they can go to get training To

make them a more proficient shooter.

Travis Bader: Uh, well, clearly I'm going
to plug Silvercore because we do that.

Um, but honestly, there, there's a
lot of good places that you can go to.

There's a lot of qualified
people across the country.

Um, look, look for positive Google
reviews, not people who are given

paying passes and shuffling them
through quickly, but for the people

that the, um, uh, I mean, I guess those
can get positive Google reviews too,

that you can read between the lines.

And then going into the States as well.

I mean, everyone and their
dogs got a gun in the States.

Marty Hayes Firearms Academy of
Seattle is a good one close for

people who are near the border.

The SIG Academy, fantastic training.

Um, done, done lots of work
with their counterparts up

here and you've done as well.

Um, Yeah, I've been through at Smyrna,
Georgia with Glock and, uh, Springfield,

Massachusetts, although I guess
they've moved now, Smith and Wesson,

um, but there's lots of, if you, if
you're doing the training, uh, getting

it from a reputable source would be
preferred, but not always the case.

Not always practicable, depending on
where you live and what's available.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

Um, another big question, uh,
especially because you guys do so much

with handgun proficiency, revolver
versus, um, the pistol with the

removable, uh, magazine like myself,

Travis Bader: I'd say, what do you have?

Number one, but yeah, in Canada, what do

Rachel Athila: you have?

What do you have?

Right.

Travis Bader: But, but number
two, uh, I go semi auto.

Rachel Athila: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Uh, and I go semi auto
because damn they're robust, right?

They are.

I don't have to like.

Uh, SIG makes amazing stuff, right?

Uh, and I've got a number of glocks
that I use that have been through

hell and back and they still go bang.

I've, I've seen these things work with
major components broken on them and they

just keep plugging away a polymer frame.

Kind of nice.

Rachel Athila: One thing I really
like how easy they are to reload.

Sure.

That's one thing.

You drop the magazine, you put
another in, you know, when you have

a revolver, there's, there, there
are cute little ways that you can

easily reload, but for safety, I
thought I would be a revolver person.

That was changed the moment
I put a sig in my hand.

Travis Bader: The idea that you're going
to be in some protracted sort of thing and

shooting and then reloading and shooting
and reloading and going through, typically

you're, Using what you have in the firearm
and hopefully that's going to be it.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

Worst case Ontario, you want to
be able to have another magazine.

Yes.

Travis Bader: Um, but yeah, the
semi autos do interject a couple

other things that you need to know
from a training standpoint, right.

How you hold it's going to
change how it cycles, ammunition

is going to feed differently.

Um, you have to know how to clear
some basic stoppages or, or jams with

it, but it's not like you don't have
to think about some of these things.

With a revolver as well.

And it's just the lightweight, the
robustness, the corrosion resistance,

and the added rounds, the extra rounds
that you have, because maybe you're out

there in a, in the middle of nowhere and
you have to use it and you're coming home

and you find you have to use it again.

Right?

Like worst case scenario, isn't it nice
to have more rounds and not enough?

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

Now in Canada, we are
under certain restriction.

For magazine capability.

Absolutely.

But with my 9, I know I have 10.

With my 10 millimeter, I have 8.

And you know, my 45 70 that I used to
carry, I could fit four down the barrel.

So it's like, you know, when you
looked at the practicality of it

too, like you said, more ammunition.

Um, another big question was, um,
Is, when a person goes after their

ATC and we did touch on it, is
there a way to communicate with an

officer to find out if they qualify?

Because there's a lot of people
that say, well, I work remotely,

you know, I might be a geologist.

Does this, you know,
does this work for me?

You know, how can people find if
they actually meet the criteria?

Because when you look at it, if
you work remote wilderness, you

have to protect your own life.

Travis Bader: What's remote wilderness?

Wilderness.

Rachel Athila: Well, it
depends for everyone else.

Right.

So remote wilderness

Travis Bader: for you might be different
for somebody in the lower mainland, right?

Absolutely.

So what exactly is remote wilderness?

So that, that's the question I'll put out
there for people to opine on themselves.

And the other one is, uh, So, uh,
it says professional occupation.

So it's not just, Oh, I'm
just working on my roof.

Right.

But if you can tie that into your
professional occupation, like I'm

sitting, I'm working on the fence.

Right.

That's a part of my professional
occupation as it applies

to what you're doing.

Um, the firearms program will ask you
to provide you with, uh, a letter from

your city or municipality saying that,
uh, you're licensed to work in that area.

And I say.

What does, I live in Delta, what
does at that time, the corporation

of Delta, now the city of Delta,
have to do with my work in remote

wilderness areas outside of Delta?

They said, Oh no, no, we need to get this.

I said, okay, fair enough.

So I talked to them and they say, we
don't have any authority over these

areas, but no, I've got it in writing.

It's satisfied the firearms
program and set that one forward.

Yeah.

So.

I wouldn't advise people to contact the
firearms program to ask if they qualify.

I don't want a binary yes or no.

I know that if I'm working in
the remote wilderness area.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

I'm just looking through a bunch
of the questions here is, you know,

I think we covered, where do I
start for the wilderness permit?

Um, and the biggest thing is
you can go online in Canada

and that's nat that's national.

Travis Bader: Yep.

Rachel Athila: Um, and that's your 5491E.

Travis Bader: Yep.

Rachel Athila: And I would submit that.

Obviously, um, I don't know if
you have yours in front of me.

I've got mine.

You have to have for that
particular form, um, um, a permit.

You have to have your
firearms license number.

You obviously have to be able to say
whether this is a new or a renewal.

Um, If you have an employer, there's
a certain section for that as well.

Um, there are certain circumstances,
you know, for mine, I, there's two

different sections, applicant works in
remote wilderness, firearms are required

to protect of his or her life or the
lives of others from wild animals.

Um, they give a few different and you
can check a few of them that apply.

So, I mean, I checked the applicant is
engaged in the age of trapping in the

province and the territory, knowing what
I know now, I could have checked all

the boxes because I do all the boxes.

Travis Bader: Right.

I think your concern, if I
recall correctly, was, I don't

want to delay this even further.

Rachel Athila: That's correct.

That's why we went after trapping.

Travis Bader: Right.

So, and I need it now, and it's
been so long that it's taken.

And now this, you're right,
federal form, provincially applied.

Some provinces have got this
dialed in and they understand it.

Other provinces, you're going to have
personalities and option individuals.

Sorry, Nova Scotia.

Um,

Rachel Athila: Alberta
is nicer and easier.

Travis Bader: Right.

So, uh, just, just from my own
personal dealings of different firearms

officers and, uh, different offices,
I know that some are going to be an

easier road for you, some are going
to be a little bit more difficult.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

And one thing I will say, um, there's
a few questions that came through on

Instagram asking, you know, Once I've
started the process, how do I, what's

the appropriate time to follow up?

So, obviously that's personal dependent.

I mean, I, I did go after
the wilderness trapping side.

Specific to trapping, because I was coming
into December, November, and I wanted

to get out there as fast as I could.

Um, obviously I still
had months in the making.

So now coming into my prep season, I
can now carry legally and lawfully.

Um, another thing I'll say
is document everything.

When I submitted everything, I put
a sticky note, submit it on this

time, you know, and, um, Uh, I gave
it a week and a half, two weeks the

first time, and then I followed up.

Concisely, politely, time,
time is of the essence.

Travis Bader: So what's an
appropriate time to follow up?

I don't like entering into
something without knowing what that

timeframe looks like to begin with.

I know I need it for this certain time.

That's my timeframe between here and now.

Right.

So if I need it next week,
I'm following up every day.

Right.

Right.

If I need it tomorrow, I'm
following up every hour.

Right.

If I need it in four months from now.

I'll say, I'll call them up and I'll
say, what's an appropriate time.

When can I expect to have the spy?

I'm going to be calling and following up
on these days or emailing on these days.

So I usually try to have that
timeframe, timeframe specified.

So the firearms officer
isn't caught off guard.

Maybe they've got a pile of work
that they have to go through

and mine's just on the pile.

It doesn't really matter.

But they look at it and
it's low priority stuff.

And they just think yours is in there.

It used to be that they'd give you a
purple envelope, different businesses

would get a purple envelope and that
they would fast track an application

that came in a purple envelope.

Then it was, if you write for employment
on your, uh, your paperwork that goes

in, you're going to get a fast track.

Now everyone's basically at the same rate.

But I've seen things go through in
like grease lightning, if the firearms

officer knows that there's a need for
it and there is a timeframe that it's.

Rachel Athila: Because like you said
earlier, they're held accountable

if they had, in a way, allegedly,
allegedly, if you have done everything,

you have submitted your application
and you are trying to use it to, To

protect your life in your occupation.

Oh, God forbid something happens.

I mean, there is a bit of a precedence.

You've, you've jumped through
all the hoops and you are there,

you are waiting for an answer.

Travis Bader: And that
accountability goes both ways.

Right?

So they're held accountable
if they say yes.

Why did you give this person the gun?

Clearly they're mentally unstable and they
did all these bad things and they're all

through, all over the internet, right?

And all through the media.

Why didn't you give this person?

No is typically the easier answer for
most people and most civil servants to.

Give, uh, because they feel like
it gives them greater control.

Chris Voss has got that, he's
that FBI negotiator that's

never split the difference.

And he's a guy who that really pushes,
he says, I'm so tired of hearing

people trying to get yes answers
out of, uh, people that's an old.

False way of thinking, get no
answers and no oriented questions.

I say, apply that to dealing
with a firearms officer.

Is there any reason why you can't
issue this in the next three days?

Well, no.

Right.

How'd that no answer work in your favor?

Yeah.

Uh, is there any reason why the
information I provide you would not?

Uh, it would fall short
of being acceptable.

We'll know, right?

The second you get them to
say, well, yes, on this one.

Okay, what?

And now they're wearing it again
and the onus is on them in order

to be able to, they're going to
have to defend that decision.

Yeah.

So that, that would be more
of the approach that I take.

It's not about tricking people and there's
also the, um, tacit approval, which may

or may not work for some people too.

So I am going out and I'm
carrying my handgun and.

I'm going to be doing it
on this day and this time.

I've provided you all of the information.

Unless you provide me some information or
reason why I can't do that, or that would

be unlawful, I will be taking it out.

Rachel Athila: And I think we actually
might've gone that way, Travis,

with my particular application,
because it had been prolonged.

I was at the end of trapping season and
It wasn't until I had put a timeline on it

saying, look, like I, my partner was gone.

I'm going to be out on the snow
machine and I, I, I have intention.

I will be going to check my
traps at this time, you know?

Is this going to be permissible or no?

How did I say that?

Um,

Travis Bader: is this permissible
is still waiting for a yes or

no, because if they don't answer.

What

Rachel Athila: did we say?

Travis Bader: Right.

Unless you tell me otherwise,
I won't be doing this.

Rachel Athila: Yes.

Unless you tell me otherwise.

We use some, we use some
wordage to that point.

And unfortunately it was until that
time that I kept getting stagmented and

stagmented in my application because
it was several weeks and several months

and then all of a sudden come March.

The beginning of March, almost all the
way through my trapping season, that's

when I got the call saying, by the way,
we have a problem with your application.

You have a prohibited firearm.

Travis Bader: Right.

Because they've realized what happens.

They've, I guess, number
one, they can ignore it.

Like that's, if they really don't
want to give it to you, that's

probably their best option.

And I've seen denial.

Of, uh, licenses and authorizations
and certificates, certificates

through, um, what's the term refusal
through, uh, just not engagement.

Basically they just ignore it.

They figured this will go away.

And then your only recourse is to, to.

And even then, that's not the best one.

Honestly, a better recourse before
then it's go to the media because the

courts aren't set up in a way to hold
the, uh, firearms office accountable

just based on how it's, it's set up.

We can talk about that
in a different podcast.

Absolutely.

But, but there is, uh, a massive
public interest here if we have, a

body that's out there that is actively
denying individuals from being able to

protect themselves in situations where
they need to carry this, this handgun.

It's, it's a lawful legal
thing to be able to do.

So if they come back and say,
yeah, no, you can't do that.

Uh, we're going to just drag
her feet some longer, it's going

to look pretty bad on them.

And they're now wearing that.

If something happens to you and
you go out there and you get hurt.

Um, so sometimes going that tacit route,
I wouldn't go there right off the bat.

Rachel Athila: Hopefully not.

Right.

You know, worst case,
you know, but, uh, yeah.

So that, that's a great answer.

Um, one of the other questions was,
and I mean, are they still offering non

restricted courses because of the freeze?

A lot of people have seen a
retardation of the courses.

Or sorry, let me, let's rephrase that.

Okay, cut to the editor,
cut to the last stage.

So let me rephrase the
question, start again.

So a lot of people are wondering,
are there still courses being

offered for restricted permits?

Because of the freeze, people maybe
haven't seen them as often, or they're

not as popular because people are
hanging on the fence of, well, why

would I get this if We obviously
can't purchase a new firearm.

Travis Bader: So you can actually
purchase restricted firearms.

There is no restricted firearm freeze.

There's a handgun freeze, and that's
where a lot of people get, uh, tied up.

You also have, uh, businesses that will
have restricted firearms working in

the film industry, working in armored
car industry, working in, there's

a lot of different industries that
will need, uh, a restricted firearm.

Trapping, guiding, free mining.

Like there's, it's a
legitimate employment reason.

So, uh, a hundred percent,
get the restricted.

I would tell absolutely everybody,
if you're putting the time in to do

the course, do non restricted and
restricted all at the same time.

The reason being is we're going to We
don't know what's going to happen in 2025.

It's easier to do it all at once.

It's less time to do it.

The minimum time requirements
are less if you're doing both of

them within a certain timeframe.

And you don't know what the
future is going to hold.

Maybe your semi automatic rifles are
going to go on a restricted list.

Maybe, and now you're licensed, right?

So I would get maximum licensing you can.

There's nothing wrong with having a
little bit more knowledge aside from

the little bit more money than it costs.

Um,

Rachel Athila: 100

Travis Bader: percent I'd

Rachel Athila: do it.

So the last question that I've got
here, and it had a lot of hits on it,

stupid proof it as far as the process.

So we are starting, I mean, if we could
put it as ABCD, that would be easiest.

Travis Bader: I don't think
we can stupid proof it.

Rachel Athila: No.

Travis Bader: No.

And I, the reason I don't think we
can stupid proof it is because of the

fact that we have that human factor.

Um, If people want to understand my
thoughts anyways, on the human factor

and what I've seen work, they'd have
to listen to the entirety of this

podcast, go to the firearms program
website, get your form 5491E, read

through the requirements on there.

Read the Firearms Act regulations as
it applies to authorizations to carry

and see that you actually meet those
requirements that you're working and

it's in a remote wilderness area.

Rachel Athila: Key on working.

Travis Bader: Right.

Do your proof of proficiency training
as outlined, put your application in.

Um, that would be the
fastest, easiest way to do it.

You can also call them up and get the
questionnaire ahead of time and just

say, Hey, I want the questionnaire.

I'm going to fill it out.

I'm going to put it through, uh, ask
for an email address that you can

send it to rather than mailing it.

If you're mailing it, send it by certified
mail so that you've got some sort of

Rachel Athila: tracking

Travis Bader: and record of delivery
receipt signed for, um, emails easier,

Easy to copy, easy to have it, and, uh.

You can

Rachel Athila: access it anywhere.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

And then follow up, put that
timeframe on it and follow up.

Rachel Athila: The biggest thing is.

You can do all those steps, but it's
on you at the end of the day, it's

on you to practice, it's on you to
shoot your pop, it's on you to follow

up, they don't owe you anything.

Travis Bader: Not at all.

Rachel Athila: And that's the
biggest thing, that's why I stuck

through it and it was hard and it
was frustrating at a lot of times.

And it took a lot longer than I
thought, but the process really

made me appreciate the opportunity.

And for those people that they qualify for
it, you will hold it in that much more of

a regard when you actually are successful,
because at the end of the day, as someone

who's licensed with both ATC wilderness
and trapping, I am, I mean, as a guide and

as a professional in the industry, one,
I was always very super cognizant of it.

Now, even more so, my
actions are being watched.

And I take pride in the
process that I've gone through.

Because it also, it sets
the stage for everyone else.

I don't want to screw
up and ruin it for you.

And I think that's the biggest thing is
that you, you have to take it serious.

And at the end of anything,
you have to take it serious.

You have to give it the
respect for the process.

Um, Cause yes, as much as it is a legal
opportunity for those of us that work

in remote settings, there, there is
a responsibility that comes with it.

Travis Bader: Rachel, I
think we've covered a lot of,

lot of ground on this one.

Now, whenever I get people calling me
up and asking for help, I'll say, have

you listened to this episode, right?

Go through it from start to finish.

Absolutely.

That.

Really gets the major nuts and bolts
of the secret sauce out there into

the public view for people to look at.

I'd love to hear questions
that people have.

I'd love to see comments.

Other people who've been successful,
please let us know what your route was.

People who've been unsuccessful
want to let us know why.

And after listening to this, if you have
an idea of like, well, maybe it was one

of these things, cause I'll tell you,
it's a part of the regulations here.

They actually have to let you know
why at the end for revocation.

They talk all about that.

Um, notice of refusal and revocation.

They have to actually let you know
and serve that information to you.

So let's use this as a place where people
can share their knowledge and, um, Maybe,

maybe our shared goal of normalizing this
process will, uh, will be seen through.

Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

And here's a 2025.

Travis Bader: I love it.

Thank you, Travis.

Thank you.